The 144,000 in Revelations Ch. 7 and 14

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   DoubleScorpionposted 12 years ago

   If one reads Chapter 7 of Revelations you will see that it speaks of 144,000 of the Israelites (12,000 from each tribe) being chosen (prior to the tribulations) and an uncountable number in white robes taken up after the tribulation.
   
   According to the OT, God already chose all of the Tribe of Levi as his and he completely destroyed 2 other tribes for going against Moses. So we have 3 tribes being counted by the book of revelations that have already been accounted for elsewhere or for other reasons. Also if you continue reading you will notice that at this time, each of the persons in the white robes are given the chance to accept to believe in God at that time and if they still refuse, then they are cast out. If this is the case, why are we so concerned with it now? Why aren't we enjoying our current lives and when the time comes for judgment (as accounted in revelations) proclaim to believe and be "saved" (as we will then have actually proof of God)   
   
   
   Chapter 14 states that these 144,000 are undefiled persons (never been with a woman/ or virgins depending on version of bible used)
   
   If these are all men, where are the women and children? And are we to believe that only the males are going to be allowed in heaven?
   
   Your Thoughts... please

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      platinumOwl4posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      The bible is an extremely cleverly written book. One must take some of its statements with a very small amount of the substance Lot's wife turned into.

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         DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         But of course!

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         megs78posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         'LIKE'

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      Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If you will look in verse 7:4, it says these 144,000 were sealed. This is in reference to Eph 1:13, in that they were each given the Holy Spirit. In Revelation, this means they will be protected from harm, as implied in verses 7:2-3 will happen to the earth and sea.
      
      I cannot find where you are saying the ones in white robes are given a chance to believe in God, and if they do not they will be cast out. What I *do* find it saying is those who worship the Beat will be cast out. Therefore, I do not follow the question you pose. If you would provide the verse references where you say some of those in white robes chose not to believe and are cast out, I will look that up to see what you are referring to. Otherwise, I think you have confused those in white robes (of righteousness) with those who worship the Beast.

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         DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         
         
         When "John" wrote the Book of Revelations he had no knowledge of S/Pauls letters to the Ephesians or anyone else as he was exile to an island when this book was written. So he wasn't referencing other "books" of the bible. And the other question about those in white comes from various commentaries and is elluded to later in Chapter 20, I believe it is. The book of Revelations is not actually written in a timeline order. It was placed in its current format by ancient schools of thouoght by editors who placed it in a order that makes for ease/flow of reading.

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            Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Yes, but he did not have to have reference to those books, right? I just gave that reference for your own sake.   Both Paul and John were taught by one and the same Spirit of God so would have the same understanding of 'sealed'. Please provide verse reference for chapter 20.
            
            I'm very surprised that you think the order of Revelation was changed around by other editors!  The Greek discourse structure shows that the book is a series of visions, but if it had been reordered, these discourse structures would all have to have been rewritten. So this really does not make sense as actual fact that editors had reordered it all into a timeline.

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               DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               If you take a course on the history of the New Testament and actually study the text itself (minus the belief system attached) it will better your understanding of how the bible we use today came about. And would probably even strengthen your beliefs.
               
               I am simply looking for thoughts on the topic, I am not looking to debate personal beliefs. Men wrote the bible, that is fact. The bible was inspired by god, that is conjecture. And each person has their own thoughts on that.

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                  Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  Thing is, I *have* taken such courses. You're right, such study strengths one's beliefs. Problem is, my thoughts are based on my beliefs. I will desist then, since you find my comments unhelpful.

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                     DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                     Ms. Dee, I didn't mean to offend. If I did I apologize. All thoughts are welcome, I am looking for certain types of responses actually, for a project I am working on.

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      Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Put everything that you just said with the fact that Jesus said !!!!  " "THIS" Gerneration shall not pass till ...."
      
      
         Put these words that Jesus is said to have said, with a HUNDRED similar verses that Jesus is said to have said, add this together with many other similar verses .....  Jesus said;     And then say  ....   
      "BUT"    but ...  but ... Paul, Matthew, Luke and/or George Bush and or Jimmey Carter said ...  such and such ...   so we gotta    "INTERPRET"    what Jesus said like this ???????   
        THEN WE  ;  Errrrrrrr  , can come up with a diferent answer... One that I can like.
          Cause if we don't  ....   
          Scripture don't say what I want it to say.
      
      -   -   - 
         If somebody don't    ....    somebody else should make a thread or Hub on this.
      
      
      
            This Aint a comment or statement .... 
      Just hope someone thinks about it.
      
      
        This is so clear that I don't believe no one else sees it !!!!!
      
      
        Where is that verse in the bible that says    "Nothing is as it apears to be"?

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   Emile Rposted 12 years ago

   I've never read Revelations. That book has caused so many problems throughout the years, it's one book I wish had never been written.
   
   But reading your statement, one thing really bothers me. Those in the white robes that are given a choice. You would assume anyone faced with evidence of God would choose God. What type of a being could he be that people would  prefer to say no? If I thought the text were true, that would make me very nervous.

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      DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Indeed. Things that make you go...Hmmmm...

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      Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Well, Moses for one.  Didn't he piss god off when he struck the rock which water flowed from?  He had the audacity to knowingly disobey god's instructions and he had personally dealt with him.
      
      Moses had problems! 

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         DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Randy does make a valid point.

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      Ms Deeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Emile R, those in white robes in Revelation are the saints who *already* believe in God. It is the result of the choice they have already made. So, I do not think you have any cause to be nervous.

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