Equality of Women in religions

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dingdongposted 16 years ago
What do you think? It's still there - some controversies about gender equality and liberation! Islam? Hinduism? Share your opinions
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  In Hinduism we have both Shiva and Shakti or Ma.
  From God arises everything .Both man and woman are God.Some like to worship God as male and some as female,i.e father and mother both are okay,its your freedom of choice how you want to worship God.
  Here again God is regarded as the divine light with no beginning and no end.
  Shiva and Shakti are also considered inseperable.
  
  Where the wroship of Ma or Kali or Shakti is concerned some approach her as her child and some approach her as the mother.
  Both male and female have the potential to become enlightened.We have female saints like Mata Amrityananda and male saints like Sai Baba who are both considered divine.
  Equality exists.
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  dishyumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Shiva did overshadow Shakti, there are such stories. Equality?
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  mohitmisraposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ying and yang , both male and female are god.
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  dingdongposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You're funny, indeed!
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  mohitmisraposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  In Hinduism we have both Shiva and Shakti or Ma.
  From God arises everything .Both man and woman are God.Some like to worship God as male and some as female,i.e father and mother both are okay,its your freedom of choice how you want to worship God.
  Here again God is regarded as the divine light with no beginning and no end.
  Shiva and Shakti are also considered inseperable.
  
  Where the wroship of Ma or Kali or Shakti is concerned some approach her as her child and some approach her as the mother.
  Both male and female have the potential to become enlightened.We have female saints like Mata Amrityananda and male saints like Sai Baba who are both considered divine.
  Equality exists in Hinduism.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I can't agree much, anyway thanks for sharing
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  mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  My pleasure.
  Expanding on this a little more.Currently we are having the festival of Navratri,which is nine days for the Mother Goddes worshipped in different forms.Here the woman is considered God.
  Yesterday was also Dashera which is considered the day Lord Ram killed the demon Ravana,here the male is considered God.
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  Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Christianity might look very different today if the gospel of Mary wasn't discarded when Christianity became a state religion of Rome.
  
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree! The Nicean Conference to help establish the Christian faith and offer a holy book excluded women entirely from the beginning.
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  prettydarkhorseposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  gender equaity, political rights is ok, but how about roles? they can never be equal in roles, physically I mean, women are tune in more to caring, cooking etc, most but not all,
  
  equal in status yes
  but not equal roles in household etc
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
Oh cool. Religions want people to deny their bodies. It is easier for men to do this than woman. Which is why woman are often not considered equal.
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  Inspirepubposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, I would say that men find it harder to restrain their lust than women, especially when they are young.
  
  Fortunately for men, most religions overtly or covertly allow men to be far more sexual than they allow women to be - certainly the ones descended from the Pentateuch have a huge double standard around sexuality.
  
  That group includes Samaritanism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.
  
  The justification for gender discrimination is that the Fall was all Eve's fault ...
  
  Jenny
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  Jewelsposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree with this. Eve was blamed for the Fall and has been sentenced to be subservient in the name of religion.
  
  This is all a bit of a hiccup too. My understanding of the Fall - the eating of the tree of knowledge is that prior to the Fall Adam and Eve were one, ie in union with the Divine. This makes them hermaphroditic. And so how was it Eve's fault when she didn't exist? Adam/Eve one being, became Adam and Eve separate procreating beings. Totally equal in status but different plumbing.
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dingdongposted 16 years ago
Islam forces women to wear clothes fully covering their body (head to toe), Hinduism has some problems in allowing menstruating women to participate in certain rituals, ceremonies....I'm just wondering about that equality!

Edit:
I don't know much about other religions, not even clear about what I said of Islam. I'm curious to listen from others
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Well, for one; Islam doesn't force their women to be fully clothed. The do it willingly because they feel that it is with respect to thier bodies and to also aleviate some of what could be, sinful eyes.
  
  In Islam the women are very much equal. They are allowed to go to school and learn just like anyone else. I don't know that everyone women is treated equally on a community level by thier peers and stuff, but according to all the women I have spoken to about it, they said they have no problem with it and they are treated as equals.
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  SparklingJewelposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I earned my degree at the second largest women's college in American. In my senior cultural history course, my professor was an Iranian woman that spent her first 20 years in Iran in an Islamic culture. And then came to the US and has been here since, except for visits back home to Iran. According to her life experience, there are many more women in the Middle Eastern countries that are abused and in extremely unequal positions...being within one of the many different Islamic traditions (they vary even more than Christianity). Many women are still murdered, stoned, tortured, burned, maimed and abused in many ways for having sex outside of marriage, trying to choose their own men for a relationship and other various "crimes" against family. In some of the bigger cities and with some of the richer folks, but not all, these barbaric traditions are not as frequent as they use to be, but they still go on. And of course rarely does anything ever happen to the men that are a part of these "crimes" against family.
  
  She says there are many more crimes of violence and inequality than we in the West will ever hear about or have opportunity to witness.
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  sandra rinckposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  fair enough, like Isaid, according to some that I have talked to. Of course they could be brainwashed to do so and I am sure their are women being beaten and murdered and stuff as well but that goes on here too.
  
  I am not sure if I am brainwashed. I don't like to wear clothing that is too skimpy cause it makes me uncomfortable cause I don't like people to stare at my body.
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  SparklingJewelposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, Sandra, I have heard that perspective too, that they cover themselves willingly. I can attest to experiencing that "spiritual perception" of protecting onesself from the "evil/lust eye"...I do the same, and have for 20 years. I believe there is a consciousness that is not "thinking" in the "universal order" of how our individual human energy flows in its purest "ways". Many Muslims I believe rightly understand the power of women in their sexuality and how they must "use it rightly" and protect themselves and others from "abuse".
  This is my understanding of the Divine Mother aspect of God.
  
  some males abuse women to "steal" their light (take control of their sexual power) to have it for themselves and use improperly. some women misuse their power to control and manipulate men. both misuses need to stop for peace to come into the world and be sustained. And there needs to be understanding in the psychologies of each individual to forgive and learn to get along for equality to manifest in harmony.
  
  even the laws of the Bible of traditional marriage and no sex outside of wedlock is all about proper use of our kundalini energy...which is our choice to use in the act of sexual intercourse and procreation OR to use to create in the world (i.e. creative ideas of projects, business, invention, "making a house a home", raising children, creating loving relationships of all kinds, etc...)
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Not in a lot of Islam as far as I can see.
  
  In legal proceedings under Sharia law, a woman's evidence is worth less than a man.
  
  Women often can't work or drive (say, Saudi). They sometimes can't live alone or travel without a male relative.
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  dingdongposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I think you are right
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  sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose I should have also said that what I wrote was the "idiology" of the Islam faith as I have been told from Islamic women. Whether brainwashed or not, I think that if they like it then they do if not then they should do something, other than that it is really none of my business to suggest what is right or not for them.
  
  Also, I don't really care much for womens lib. not so much in that I don't like being able to vote or have a say in matters, more like it bugs me because now when a women finds that the lot or place she wants in life is to be at home raising kids, while the man goes out and brings home the bacon...has become somewhat a double standard as well.
  
  I am a person who still believes that a good foundation for a family is when a mother get's (if she chooses) to stay home and be with her kids and aiding them in thier early development and a stable foundation for when they go off to school and have to start making decisions for themselves.
  
  but I may be getting way off the subject.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  What double standard do you see?
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  dishyumposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  I'd like to get the answer for the same
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  Make Moneyposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah hats off to Sandra for upholding the traditional family unit.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it is a matter of the Quran teaching the covering of womens bodies as much it is a cultural requirement.
  
  http://www.submission.org/teenagers/dress-teens.html
  
  I do know that the women are supposed to remain in the back of the Mosque when praying as the bending over could arouse the men. Is this fair to the women? I don't know as it is probably a prudent way of cutting off any misunderstandings.
  
  The Apostle Paul is very clear that women should remain quiet in the church and not preach. He also says that the wife should submit to the husband. I think this would be a bit more sexist than the teachings of Islam.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you kidding?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is there a false statement in what I said?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You honestly consider that more sexist than the practices of Islam? Really?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I hope you can distinguish between the cultural treatment of women and the religious teaching of the Quran when referring to Islam. It is clearly stated by Muhammad that women have equality with men in the religion whereas the Apostle Paul defines a womans role as sub servient. Really, look it up.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Funny how the benefit of that doubt only seems to apply to Islam. This sort of reminds me of how Europe is generally and reflexively hostile to Christianity but oh-so-considerate of the faith and followers they are clearly scared of.
  
  This kind of conversation also tends to find non-experts in both faiths pretending to be.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your statements make broad generalizations of Europes attitude towards Islam without an pretext to refer too. You also have a tendency to generalize and mix cultural and religious behavior together to make your perspective on the topic seem credible.
  
  Do you have anything valuable to the conversation or do you wish to just begin trading insults?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "Tendency"? Has this ever come up between us before? In any case, ask a Muslim if you can separate culture, religion, and law in their view. You could go ahead and ask a Christian the same.
  
  http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop … laims.html
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Now you are talking about a different topic than the posted one. My responses are related to the equality of women in religion and you wish to combine them all together.
  
  Why don't you ask women in different religions if they feel they are treated equally within their religions and separate from their cultures to begin to understand.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I have. Most people don't recognize a distinction.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are very quick to answer a lot of questions. Did you come by this through extensive study or do you know a vast amount of people to make to be able to answer the question with such resolve?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It's nice when people actually answer questions, isn't it?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Both, but most importantly the latter.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can you qualify that with any credible proof?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you want a list of everyone I've ever met along with address and phone number so you can investigate each one?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, because as you have inferred it would be impossible. So I guess I should take you at your word? Now you get it don't you?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You should. It's that or just don't believe me. All the same to me.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely not. I would expect you would investigate everything I say. You may learn something along the way.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You would expect me to investigate everyone you have ever met?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You might start by picking up a book as that may answer your questions before you start asking people I know the meaning of what you have read. Reading comprehension is a weakness you have shown.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yeah, I've never picked up a book.
  
  ...
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  lyricsingrayposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  TKSENSEI HI XO
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Howdy!
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well not in the reading and comprehension sense.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I hate to break it to you but I've also studied that more than you are ever likely to.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Well, you might want to study a little harder because it didn't take. It really is a TK World for you isn't it?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It 'took' just great, thanks. In fact, it is something I've taught others for many years.
  
  Next?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you in education? What a horrible thought that conjures up.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Didn't mean to scare you.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then you are in education?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That's part of what I do, yes.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Wow is all I can say. I would have never figured that to be the case with all our conversations. I am simply amazed at this as I would have thought you would have more of a basis to ruminate from.
  
  But as the current educational system has shown there is not a lot you can put a finger on where things have gone wrong. I don't want to insult you by placing all that on you so I will bite my tongue and try not to misdirect on you for your ties to that vocation.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe you mentioned "prejudice" several times?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I was referring to your beliefs and how you expressed them. You are not very original. Maybe if you employed something other than repeating the comment in reverse might be a start of showing some sort of originality and thought.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I believe you mentioned "prejudice" several times?
  
  .............
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then you are doing a poor job.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As usual you cherry pick what you wish it to mean. Really? Education?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  "As usual" I point out your own words and you are not comfortable standing by them.
  
  You don't want to insult me? Really?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Precicely do you have any of your own?
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  Bovine Currencyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I just love it! What time I have this morning...
  
  Right on the button for the education card!!!
  
  LOVIN IT!
  
  Thanks Master Sensei
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Have I insulted anyone here?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The tone and inuendo you assume in conversations has an insulting style to it and I know you can at least see that.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, the "tone."
  
  I see...
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry, either you have some understanding of how you treat others or you don't. That is sad my friend.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, is this 'tone' going to be a standard we hold everyone to now? That should be easy...
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Is there a question in there somewhere?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you kidding?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  TK have you any evidence to dispute this?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  To dispute your go-to-any-lengths apology for Islam and hostility to Christianity? Is your personal opinion subject to dispute?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I did not know that you took my response to mean that I was making any apology for Islam. That was never my place and never shall be. My response was meant to explain something about the religion and it's relationship to Arab culture. Why are women in Iran allowed to only cover their hair while in Saudi Arabia Muslim women cover their entire body? Is this because of religion or is it culture based?
  
  Western women are allowed to bare their entire bodies and allowed living with a man out of wedlock. Is this based on the Bible? Certainly not but it is allowable in our culture.
  
  I merely wish to expose myths and how they are misconstrued by popular opinion when in fact many are false.
  
  As far as my personal opinion why don't you give it a shot?
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knolyourselfposted 16 years ago
"Islam forces women to wear clothes fully covering their body"
Sexual lust is not religious because it does not comport to human perfection. So the men, who seemingly cannot control their own lust and perfectability, blame the woman appartently for tempting them, and make them wear behive keeper suits.
Somewhat ironic I think.
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sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
Oh and in some Christain divisions, the women are wear coverings on thier heads when men are present as a sign of respect because they believe while they are equal that the man is the head of the house and first under God, so when a man is present they show thier respect this way. It's pretty neat. I wouldn't do it, but hey that's just me.
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Mishaposted 16 years ago
Wasn't it?

In Orthodox Christianity woman has to have her hair covered while outside and in church. At the same time, men are required to remove hats in church. Other than that there are no gender requirements, except for the general "wife should obey her husband", which seems to be more or less universal across religions...
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  VENUGOPAL SIVAGNAposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  I FULLY ACCEPT THIS GENERAL PERCEPTION "WIFE SHOULD OBEY HER HUSBAND". BE IT CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS OR HINDUS, A MAN'S DUTY IS TO PROTECT WOMEN, WHO ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO OR NOT ABLE TO DO ALL THE WORK DONE BY MEN. IN TURN, WIFE SHOULD OBEY HER HUSBAND. CUSTOMS MAY DIFFER. PERCEPTION IS SAME. VENUGOPAL SIVAGNANAM.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  Please stop using ALL CAPS. It is considered rude in online discussions. you do not need to add your name either.
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  Perceptions sure aren't the same in this neck of the woods!
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Mark Knowlesposted 16 years ago
Oddly enough, I am in agreement with SJ here

Hers is far closer to the truth. I don't think it is like this everywhere, all the time, and things are changing, especially in places where there are large Muslim communities that are not easily able to enforce their laws, such as where I live.

Islamic women are forced to behave this way and treated unequally. In western cultures, in much the same way as some people are "sold," the idea that the war in Iraq is "good," and there is a "threat," from outside, some of these women are also "sold," the idea that they are being "good," and "choose" to cover up.

I am not sure which is worse - forcing them to do it, or brainwashing them into it?
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  kerrygposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  My vote goes for brainwashing, because it makes the women complicit in their own oppression.
  
  In India, most of the dowry murders are committed by women. Women are often complicit in honor killings throughout the Middle East, Africa, and Central Asia, and are the ones responsible for arranging for their daughters to be ritually mutilated by FGM in Africa. In Afghanistan, mothers-in-law make life hell for new brides, just as their own life was once made hell by their own mothers-in-law. (Actually, that tradition seems to cling even in fairly secular Muslim societies like the former Soviet Republics. My own m-i-l is relatively progressive and couldn't have done anything to me as a Christian and an American anyway, but my sister-in-law, who is Muslim and married into the family back home while the grandmother was still alive, tells of being woken up every morning at 5 AM by the grandmother and forced to sweep the family courtyard, cook, clean, and essentially slave for the family all day every day for the first few weeks of her marriage, until she and her husband moved to Moscow.) Women in these societies have no power, so they take what they can get and use it to make others suffer as badly as they have suffered. It's a sick, vicious cycle.
  
  Even in Christianity and Judaism girls get raised to think that they somehow won't be "complete" without a man. One of my friends is intelligent, well-educated, accomplished ... and yet her mother started every single conversation they had for months after she got serious with her now-husband, "Are you engaged yet?"
  
  I don't think it's necessarily the fault of the religions themselves - Mohammad and Jesus, for example, were both extraordinarily progressive for their times regarding their treatment of women - but they get used as an excuse to justify poor treatment of women after the fact.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the idea that a woman is incomplete without a man is not Christian. Consider some of the reasons why the Roman Empire once regarded Christianity as a threat to the status quo. Christian women were more likely to be better educated, to delay or refuse marriage, or, if widowed, to refuse to remarry and to therefore maintain control over their own property. And of course, the idea that a woman is incomplete without a man would be foreign to a religion that for centuries offered women the most opportunities outside of marriage or prostitution.
  
  Also, it was St. Paul who made the radical statement not just that wives be submissive to their husbands, but that husbands and wives must be submissive to each other.
  
  As for Judaism, I won't speak for commentary, but if anything, the interpretation of the creation of Adam and Eve indicates that it's man who is incomplete without woman.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Add to the fact that the Apostle Paul came from the order of the Pharisees as a devout jew you can see where his perspective came from with regard to women.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, that radical idea requiring husbands as well as wives to "be subordinate to one another out of reverence for Christ."
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  He also wrote about the submission of a wife to her husband as in 1Cor 11:3 "and the head of the woman is man." 1Co 14:34 "Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission."
  
  This speaks of a double standard that is not spoken of in the Quran.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran … h-less.htm
  
  Remember when I mentioned this kind of topic and non-experts acting as if they were?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You really should read the text youself and complete the study as these quotes are taken completely out of text. But why should I expect any different. You cherry pick so many topics for your manipulation. The website is also one that should be avoided if you wish to get an unbiased look at the Quran.
  
  Good try TK but you really have blundered into another one.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  So, those quotes were NOT from the Quran? Context, eh? Funny how Valerie keeps giving you context to the quotes you took from the Bible, but that seems to be different somehow.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Do you unerstand the difference between quotes and how the context referred to within the complete works are related. I can cherry pick anything from within a piece of writing and make it relate to whatever I want it to reflect. Your reference site has done exactly that. Have you read the chapters surrounding the quotes you cited? If you had it would quickly difuse your argument.
  
  Valerie is right in many ways but she quoted outside the context which is fine but not within the confines of the text.
  
  I haven't said that there is absolute equality between the sexes in the Quran but if you allow Valerie to go outside the text perhaps I may add that Muhammad had many wives and they were treated very well with being at war for most of the time. Perhaps you can investigate why there were many wives incorporated into the Islamic religion and why many of the laws that surrounded their relationship were governed to avoid the human dynamics that came into play.
  
  You are proof that a little knowledge can be dangerous with your half truth assertions.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, you have shown that you can.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You are the king of out of context. You edit out the explanation of what you question. Too bad I was hoping you were going to make some progress. Go back and read the post in its entirety and maybe you will get a better grip on the meanings rather than your slant.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I read it. It was just more of you playing apologist for Islam and ignoring Valerie's valiant efforts at providing you with the 'context' you are so fond of.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Your predjudice is well noted and shields you from understanding the differences with out plastering your bias to it. Sorry you can't distinguish but you are a victim of your culture.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  *yawn*
  
  Gonna call me a poopy head next? Just about at that level now.
  
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't have to. Your reputation far preceeds you.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I might print this one off and take it down to the framer
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, you might want to think about that one.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't have to as you have proven you can't think independently from your predjudices.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What prejudices would those be? And do you believe you "think independently"?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Too much and too little time to explain it to you. Perhaps if you traveled a bit it might help. But maybe that would be a bad thing for you as you would surely open your mouth and get in more trouble than you could squirm your way out of.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Give it a shot.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  It is a shame when people embarrass themselves like this. The stragetic thing would have been to try and ascertain my travel history first before saying such a thing. Now you just look silly.
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Hope Alexanderposted 16 years ago
Interesting discussion. I have been learning about Buddhism lately, and been quite entranced by many of the philosophies, and the manner in which the monks and nuns live, simply. But the last part of that sentence is what trips me up.

In spite of the fact that the basic idea of Buddhism is overcoming attachment to the illusions that surround us in 'reality', and the monks and nuns give up all pleasures of the flesh, including sexuality and sensuality, they are still divided by gender. That makes no sense to me. These are people well on the way to enlightenment, embracing the emptiness of the world, coming to a deep understanding that at the center of their beings is - nothing, yet for some reason they refuse to overcome the attachment to what is between their legs and use it as a divisive measure.

The lay world can often manage to have males and females living together without engaging in sexual impropriety, so why on earth can't the Buddhists get it together long enough to treat women and men equally?

I have also read that nuns carry a much lower status than most monks, and are regarded in some sects of Bhuddism as being incapable of enlightenment.

It's sad when you discover the hypocritical nature of a religion that seems so beautiful in so many ways, but there you have it.
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Poppa Bluesposted 16 years ago
What is equality anyway? How can men and women ever be equals? We are obviously different and of course we treat each other differently. Much of this behaviour goes back to the roots of mankind! We are biologically programed to behave in certain ways.
You also can't look at middle eastern cultures and compare them to societies in the west. Yes there is abuse of women, mutilations, stoning, etc, but that is condoned in those cultures and women that follow the law never have such problems. Men too are required to live a certain way. Men that have affairs or use prostitutes can be jailed and homosexuals can also be put to death.
Yes with our western values glasses on it seems crude and we can certainly criticise it but what else can we do? That's the way those people choose to live!
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  LondonGirlposted 15 years agoin reply to this
  That is wrong for two reasons.
  
  Firstly, the laws themselves may well be unjust. So it is wrong to expect people to obey unfair laws.
  
  Secondly, women who act within the law can find themselves in serious trouble anyway, becuase of what their relatives do to them, or blame apportioned to the women of a family to suffer for a man's transgressions.
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dingdongposted 16 years ago
Thanks everyone who shared so far.

P.S. I think Mr.Venugopal should listen to Mark
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Jewelsposted 16 years ago
dingdong wrote:

Hinduism has some problems in allowing menstruating women to participate in certain rituals, ceremonies....I'm just wondering about that equality!

My understanding is there is an energetic component to this. Not all is explainable from the physical day to day standpoint. During rituals and ceremonies, the intent is to put yourself in a state of consciousness and to prepare a 'space' (the ceremonial room) so that spiritual beings/presences are felt. When a woman menstruates (and interestingly when there are a group of women it's common for several to menstruate at the same time), the energy of the woman changes. So much so that it is often heavier than usual and much more difficult to hold 'that space'. When doing practices of a high calibre it requires that all participants respect the space and help in the process.

You will hear in some cultures the term 'secret women's business'. Women chose to separate themselves from the men also. Around the time of menstruating they would gather together and purge, both energetically and physically. Probably all having a good complain about how the husbands were not very good hunters or something like that.

So lets get into the realness of this one. Girls put your hand up if you get moody leading up to or/and during menstruation. And Guys - I don't have to explain anything to you.

There is more to this subject than plain hormones but there is a massive context in it about subtle bodies and energetic influences. But in regard to this thread this is an explanation that may satisfy. It is not about equality, it's one of those 'natural' inconveniences endured due to the human condition.
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  dingdongposted 16 years agoin reply to this
  It's a deep thought, I mostly tend to agree with
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sandra rinckposted 16 years ago
My friend and I do that even when we aren't near each other. or I don't know...
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Mishaposted 15 years ago
Hats off for you Sandy

That's pretty much how I feel about the issue, too
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neysajasperposted 14 years ago
Yes, of course it is there in the rural parts of India like Rajasthan and Punjab.. People are divided on teh basis of religion, caste and creed. This is themost ugliest thing of human mankind.. x-(
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  dishyumposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Are you from India?
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  neysajasperposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Does it matter? I do not think so.. As We all are first human and then anything else..
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Bovine Currencyposted 14 years ago
gettin old tk... the game is gettin real old
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Then feel free to go on to the next thread.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I am free.
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Bovine Currencyposted 14 years ago
obviously he does tk. Perhaps you could offer an alternative... to someone... sometime.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't talking to you. I'll pay attention to you later, I promise. Now run along.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Ill be fine. I can spread my time of my own accord. Don't stress cutie pie.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't worry Bovine. This is his MO. He has been hunting me down since last weeks foray into nothingness. I think he does offer an interesting antagonistic element to the conversation so I try to dispell as much as I can his more mainstream viewpoints. You have to admit it does make us chuckle a little in here.
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  Bovine Currencyposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  yeah i agree.
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Bovine Currencyposted 14 years ago
this thread doesn't belong to you. we all know the game, you buzz around without saying anything, bothering people on one thread, it gets old and you go to another for a while. don't you ever get bored of questioning people? Have something to say, surely you have something.
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tantrumposted 14 years ago
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sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago
Valerie is a perfect example of why we have to control our women. If we don't they'll start that thinking stuff and they'll weaken us with migraines. Then they'll really start bossing us around!
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I'll take that as a compliment.
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
As for women not being allowed to speak in church, that was only reflective of customs extant at the time. It was around then that Jewish women were prohibited from making aliya- because illiterate men might find getting shown up by a girl who could read the Scriptures embarrassing.

Of course, telling a new believer he should get over himself and let the girl read would scandalize and alienate new believers accustomed to a culture where women held no such status. The double standard does not exist within the religion itself, but crops up when religious people attempt to accommodate cultural views foreign to the religion in order to avoid causing unnecessary offense. In 1 Corinthians, Paul addressed a custom, not a religious requirement, and he wrote that passage in reaction to a tendency some women showed to flout social standards (rather than religious doctrines) that required they cover their heads. Note that Paul didn't call it sinful for a woman to pray with her head uncovered, but merely asked people to judge for themselves if it's proper, then said that it's simply not customary.

Also, the first letters to the Corinthians was written to different people under different circumstances than the letter to the Ephesians, who apparently needed to be reminded that men need to submit to their wives and be willing to sacrifice of themselves for them.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you that the customs dictated the conditions of the times but there seems to be some dispute as to whether Islam is any more woman friendly than Christianity or not. The customs are what is the difference and the translation of that into modern society a wash. There are varying levels of equality with any given topic within both according to culture.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Not much of a dispute, because the cultures within which Christianity is mostly practiced have, for the most part and to significant degrees, advanced while the cultures within which Islam is mostly practiced have, in many places, actually moved backward.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  The funny part about your assertion is that you still relate on your own cultural basis and judge the other to be inferior. If the Islam faith is taking a step backwards why is Islam one of the fastest growing religion presently?
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Read what I wrote again more carefully.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Don't have to. I unlike you have some comprehension skills that require only one pass to understand your copy. It is very basic you know.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Meaning you won't. Ah, but you don't have any prejudices....
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah but unlike you I try not to let them sway my understandings and judgements.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Couldn't tell from this thread.
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lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago
hmmm....let me poder this? hmmmm.... YA THINK?
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Valerie Fposted 14 years ago
Islam is growing because it's getting a lot of attention. Also, in some countries (ie, Sudan), it's growing because of forced conversions.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah that is unfortunate and with a lot of theocracies it gives no one a choice. But in free societies it is gathering momentum as well. I am just a student of Islam and not a convert but neither am I a Christian in the truest sense. I do think it is interesting how despite many different cultures and customs the similarity many of these world religions have.
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  Valerie Fposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  And in the free countries where Islam has been growing, women have been giving up their freedoms or hoping that Sharia will not become the law of the land.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that some of it is archaic in it's development and Shariac Law has a tendency to zealot thinking and behavior. Most unfortunate. But as with all religions there is room for interpretation and the anguish it brings to the minorities that are oppressed by it. It is also ashame the lives of some of these archaic beliefs put at jeopardy the lives of so many. Women do suffer more under these conditions.
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tksenseiposted 14 years ago
Of course, but you don't seem to pay as much attention to those...
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  As usual you can't recall so you throw it on me. Poor you.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Can't recall what?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for proving my point.
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  What point?
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  Precisely. Thanks for proving it again. Good day to you.
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weblogposted 14 years ago
Someone here is feeding a troll
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know which one of us you are referring to but I applogize for either being it or feeding it or feeding into it.
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  weblogposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  That troll has a beast face
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Bovine Currencyposted 14 years ago
I find it far more entertaining to watch.
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rhamsonposted 14 years ago
@Bovine

I am sure he has quite a few more. The TK World is always predictable.
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LOT2DOposted 14 years ago
who's the troll?
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Bovine Currencyposted 14 years ago
At least we can laugh about it. I wish TK would lighten up, even for his own sake... Can't be healthy.

Anyway, I can't be bothered 99% of the time. Whatever the topic it, it always ends the same.
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  rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  You know that's right.
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Lisa HWposted 14 years ago
A long as religions remain based on the words of people who lived thousands of years before the concepts o "women as equals" and as "equally deserving of respect as equals" were ever introduced in society women need to know that patriarchal religions will never be for them. Heck, think of the big struggle women had in fighting for the right to vote in the US. If it weren't so pathetic that would seem laughable today. One day religions my become less laughable as well.
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Cagsilposted 14 years ago
Religion will never have equality for women, because women are seen as inferior to man. It's ignorance drives separation.
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  lyricsingrayposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  precisely thank you sir
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  tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this
  No, women are seen as different from men, which they are. It's not "ignorance" to recognize that fact.
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Lisa HWposted 14 years ago
Cagsil, it's good to see someone not afraid to use the word, "ignorance". Women ought to dump any religion that believes girls/women aren't equal. Mothers, especially, ought to "man up" and refuse to stay in any religion that won't respect their daughters as equals.
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