It is the great Hub forums where a certain few like to sit in the bleachers and throw christians to the lions. And yet , its almost always the same ones . Those who like to chide the faithful are apparently jealous. Thier lives meaningless except for the pleasures of hyocracy. seudo -intellectually spewing thier disgust at the purity and honest simplicity of what ?....of faith! And yet , they seem unable to grasp the fact that this faith is all thats reqired of believers of any denomination ! Faith, one small word , with so much apparent confusion associated with it . And yet,of all of the intellectual minds , of all of the test tube mentality , the nuclear minds of today can come of with is pure schoolyard bullying . Here is the point :
"I [of great scientific mind] ,have proof that you shouldn't have faith!"
is what they would have you or I believe , and it's what they constantly spew forth. My question ......Why do you care??? Go about your non-belief in silence!
Of course they tell us this constantly; "you are trying to push your belief down my throat " , uhmm hummmm, seriously when was the last time that the God police forced thier way into your door? Lets see how long it is before "they " cry foul at this !
Um, isn't demanding atheists be silence pushing your belief quite literally down our throats and gagging us?
Actually it is rocket science. Which is why the best and brighest minds are eternally searching for the answer we have as yet not been able to comprehend.
Faith is believing without proof, it is not believing in spite of proof.
Interpretation is key to understanding and the belief that common people should not attempt to "interpret" the meaning of the scriptures is simply an elegant way of saying "Don't think, OBEY".
religion ≠ faith
Faith cannot exist in the face of certainty and become mere hypocrisy otherwise known as religion.
1 complete trust or confidence in someone or something : this restores one's faith in politicians.
2 strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Got faith in God, cool! I am unlikely to have any problems with that, why would I?
Got faith in Religion, ummm there is where we got problems mate. Certainty is the basis of religion and so having faith in it is dishonest to oneself and others.
There is the your problem, interpretation! You are wrong , A true believer doesn't require test tubes! Nor a telescope or a sextant. He requires trust. Trust in that his faith is all he needs. Listen , if you want to write your own rules , go ahead. Thats what most who suffer from the lack thereof do ! It's quite prevelant around the forums.
It's all about faith in yourself. You have faith that you have come to the right conclusions. So does everyone else. Everyone has the right to voice their opinion. Don't they?
yes you are right! I think somtimes any of us can get carried away at the moment! and some one can push that red button ! and zap we loose it for a minute ,or some days and some as I heard from a number of days some they do not know how to end the argument said by a wise lady!
They do Emile , who would deny anyone their opinion ? but the point being if you don't believe , then thats fine ! Why question another persons surity in faith! My whole point !
Why question? I don't know. You probably think I'm one of the difficult ones. I don't have a problem with faith. But, it isn't a simple point of faith.
What does your faith make you believe about others? When someone has faith in their idea that a deity condemns people, voicing that opinion will garner a negative response. Too many people allowed to condemn too often, their hatred unchecked by others who claim affiliation with the same God; makes the whole thing look bad. You know what they say? 'one bad apple spoils the bunch.'
Once that bad taste gets in your mouth, I guess you'll condemn the whole religion and any person who claims simple faith in that vision of what God is. Across the board. Who appreciates a person with surety in a deity who everyone says is hell bent on the destruction of mankind?
Who would deny opinions? You would!
I like what you say, Emile, because you are honest and balanced and open in your comments. I hope that I am being open and fair as well in following this thread.
Everyone does have the right to voice their opinion. But I think that Christians are being persecuted in America for voicing their opinions at this point in time. Sit through 6 years in a university where they claim to be open to every faith yet Chrisianity is constantly thrown to the dogs. The horrible things the W,A.S.P. has done throughout history, the evangelical conspiracy behind making our founding fathers out to be Christians, Using Jesus Christ's name in vain constantly while teaching about tolerance and not offending other's faiths? Teaching atheism and evolution as fact. I had one Christian professor who wasn't nearly as open or loud mouthed or offensive as my anti-Christian professors, yet the school was trying to take his tenure for talking about Christianity in class
It seems like it is difficult to be a practicing Christian and talk openly about it- not evangelizing, just talking about your beliefs, without being really attacked. And I am not an in your face kind of person. But my beliefs are central to my life, and I get tired of being pegged as ignorant, naive, evil, pathetic, idealistic,
I also question that it is all about faith in yourself. I think having faith in yourself is worthy. But I also think that it matters what the substance of the object of your faith is. I put my faith in God, I believe His substance to be worthy of faith. I do this intentionally, understanding that I will not see God and he will not tell me the truth of all things while I am on earth. But I believe in my faith and I believe it's a valueable faith because I believe in God, the creator, the higher power, and Christ his son. And I believe in Him not blindly, but looking at history, religions throughout the ages, ancient texts, and things that are personal to my life and being. I do not have this faith in humans, including myself, as I do not believe we are a higher power. I believe we were made to have the spiritual capacity to connect with that higher power, and that we do not understand all of the ramifications or reasons for this connection. I believe this is where our faith comes in.
"...seriously when was the last time that the God police forced thier way into your door?"
How about when the faithful fought Gay marriage to destruction in most states? How about when Texas changed our history to indicate only Christians among our founding fathers? How about the continual fight to promote creationism in our schools? Or the continual insistence for illegal school prayer?
Although It's been a while since a Witness jammed their foot in my door, the Christian mob pushes their agenda and beliefs on a day to day basis throughout the country. It's a never ending fight to keep outmoded, immoral and illegal Christian beliefs and demands out of our lives.
Having faith isn't the problem - no one truly cares about that. It becomes a major issue when that faith, and the standards imposed by it, are forced onto surrounding people. You claim that doesn't happen, but only because you accept that it is right and proper for the faithful (at least of your faith) impose standards on others. It's not.
For a long time, people of the UK, have looked on amazed at the continuing stranglehold that religion seems to have over US society. However, where America leads, the UK is very often soon to follow. For the first time in many years, religion seems to be back on the agenda, with increasing religious voices demanding to be heard and for their views to become part of education. I am amazed to hear that religious groups in the UK are now insisting that creationism is taught alongside evolution. And even the Equalities Commission, which is supposed to ensure equality in all areas of British life has an evangelical Christian leader, who believes that atheists have no right to question the religious, and has declared his intention to protect the religious believer against the atheist. And the numbers of people who accept evolution in the UK has decreased quite dramatically, with only 25% now believing evolution to be a fact. And similar numbers now believe the universe to be less than ten thousand years old. Another indication of changing British attitudes is reflected in the fact that in the 1950s, only 1 in 8 people believed in ghosts, whilst now it is approximately 70%. So, science in the UK seems to be losing ground to the belief in the supernatural.
I'm sorry to hear that. This is one export that America does not need to be making.
Of course, according to the OP we aren't. It's just coincidence that England is having the same problems with the faithful not pushing the beliefs while they shove it down your throats.
If it weren't so sad, that Equalities Commission leader that publicly declares only his way is right would be funny. It is the Christian way, though.
Well I think it's simpler than that. As the great GK Chesterton said, "when people stop believing in God, they don't then believe in nothing, they will believe in anything."
Wizards and magic, Vampires and life on other planets are taken more and more seriously as people poo-poo the idea of God more and more. We are a silly species in all.
I agree. 60 years ago, the majority of British people believed in the Christian faith. This began to decline though for a few decades. However, the number of people who describe themselves as "spiritual" has risen sharply. This often includes people who believe in fairies, tarot card reading, psychic surgery, Atlantis, flying saucers etc. Trying to replace religion with rationalism has not been very successful and it seems people want or need to believe in things not of this world.
I swear the nuns dropped some people on there heads too many times. It always seems those more fired up against religion are the ones raised in strictly religious households. Expatriated firebreathing ,ministers sons and daughters. Faith .....It takes far more faith to be an atheist and you people know it. One look at our world so planned and perfect and I know that the big bang is just a big pile! Carry on my wayward children!......:-} Its funny ,you can always hear the bitterness in the whines of the lost sheep! Group hugs for the poor persecuted anti-believer.
Yes, I was reading the OP and thought exactly the same thing.
Sorry you feel so deeply hurt and angry!
Did you ever consider that these people, raised in religious households, saw the consistent fraud, and outlandish claims UP CLOSE, and can make a better discernment of the veracity of this nonsense?
In my opinion, it is apparent that you NEED to believe this!
I'm truly surprised that people would discuss issues such a s religion, & simply treat it as if it wasn't something that's true to life. The fact that many people live out their entire lives solely based on an particular belief system makes it an extremely delicate subject to toss around.
Please do respect other peoples ways of life, their will power to survive in ways they know how, and in their personal beliefs. It's quite alarming to me to see adults act in such a manner as if they weren't in the real world, where many lives depend on particular sources of knowledge such as religions provide. Without religion our very humanity we have today would have gone astray many many years ago.
I don't personally like to focus on one form of belief, I view them as a whole as survival patterns that have been generated over ages of human existence, and people have every right to practice what they choose to worship. No one should be scrutinized for what they believe in, unless if that belief infringes upon that of another.
I do know that many beliefs exist out here in the world that have hidden agenda's, which many are cruel in it's practical purposes. Those which practice falsehood behind their obvious illusive false truths do need to be done away with for sure, but maybe there should be a way to make such a thing happen someday. There's also wolves that will always hide behind sheep's clothing, in anything related to the human experience, because many of us are programmed by greed, selfishness, and with cruelty in our hearts for the love & lust of money.
This is just a view from a personal perspective. Both arguments require faith, since neither can be proved of disproved. As discussion ensues regarding if their is a God the burden of proof falls on the believer, not the faithful, since the non-believer or atheist has faith God does not exist. This becomes true at this point since the atheist now has the burden of disproving God's existence. Again, it is founded on faith.
This, at least for 'me' is that so many Christians and/or religious (for the sake of a term) claim faith as their own, when it is not. The question is defining or explaining for 'self' the 'unseen.' We are a socialized creature within many influential cultures with the same logical assumption/presumptions based on the simplicity of 'faith' or relying on my special comment to these questions - "I dun'no."
Somehow I just don't get that those who aren't of belief have to STILL attempt to disarm the believers . My whole point all along has been that why would non-believers try so hard to disprove something as simple as "I choose to believe". There is a well defined agenda here in these forums for the questioners of believers to raise the hackles of everyone by disrepect! To deny this is just dillusionary !
Why does it matter? Why start topics about it telling them they have to shut up because you said so? Why not just live and let live and lead by example by not going on and on about why you are right and they are wrong--which inevitably leads the the very discussion you started off saying you didn't want to have? Hypocrisy much?
Just wanted to add that I have no problem with any belief , God or no god, It is more prevalent here of non- believers to disrespect believers. I would ask only that all of you watch for this in the future , and you will see it!
I have seen disrespect and insults from both sides of the fence.
In these forums it seems we argue instead of discuss.
I am not one to dispute a persons belief, but as I have an extensive background in Biblical Studies, I do point out things about the bible and I have been told I am wrong simply because it does not agree with someones personal interpretation of the bible. There are things about the text that is the bible which have been proven as factual, but there are those who use their "faith" to dispute even these facts about the bible.
Sadly, if one would learn more it would probably increase their beliefs and understanding, but they refuse to do even that.
Atheist aren't basing their argument of the existance of God based on faith. They just want proof. If anyone could actually prove there is a God, then I am sure all atheists would change their opinions. But the fact remains, God simply cannot be proven, it has to be taken on faith.
As does, that god does not exist - faith. Unless the burden of proof argument comes into play. The god of the bible admits their are false gods. Be they false they are gods. The question of ownership of faith as being a conclusive argument that there is a "God" is not an argument, since faith is universal to false 'gods' as well.
If the argument of 'belief' or 'believers' enters then their becomes large discussions within the Christian religions or non-exclusive ideology of faith related to that specific "god." Or, the arguments of dogma come into play. Belief or being a believer is congruent with being a non-believer.
A personal interjection is that I have little belief in much. However, to exist within the reality of 'self' I accept or acknowledge much, again, without attributing belief. I came upon this conclusion with studying science.
For 'self' belief is directly related to concrete evidence - science based evidence, law based evidence, etc. My personal view of the 'scriptures' they are not concrete. So, if I have anything regarding them it would be faith and not belief.
There comes the circle of my diluted mind. Faith of explanation for 'self' of the unseen, not belief. Disclaimer: this will more than likely change by the time tomorrow gets here, which I have faith will occur and not belief, since tomorrow ultimately becomes today, and I never taste tomorrow except through faith."
No, not all atheists will believe in God even given proof. No more than the faithful you mention will believe certain facts about the bible.
Some people will simply always believe whatever makes their way of life acceptable and easy.
You are probably right. But I would think that if they were looking right at God...well...even then there might be a few
Yep. It would actually be ET come to visit. Or their neighbor dressed up in a costume. Or a hologram from the Russians (or the CIA ) designed to confuse them. Or a hallucination.
Some are dead set on believing something and facts just won't change a thing. Not even shaking hands with God. Or finding Jesus' remains in India, for that matter.
I have for a long time made the mistake of assuming all atheists are rationalists. However, there are as many unsupported beliefs amongst atheists as there are amongst the religious. There are atheists, who believe in flying saucers, tarot card reading and even immortal life. People can manage to believe in the supernatural without believing in a god.
Rookery ; I had not of it that way , but you are so right. And seriously , to each his own ,once in awhile I fly off the handle when I see the same ones who always try to provoke in bitterness! I have since learned who they are and mean no disrespect to anyone , even them! But I will always call out those who are bitter antagonists !
how many people believe in you?
Emile . nice . very nice . your a witty and smart cookie
nice to meet you
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