Although this question is going to be called inflammatory and trollish, I am compelled to ask. What possesses anyone to believe in the Christian/Islam concept of hell?
To those who do, how do you resolve such a hateful, vengeful and bizarre belief to the flip side of your belief system that claims a loving and forgiving deity.
Do you ever suffer a moment of remorse for looking toward a reality of suffering for others? A moment of hesitation and concern that this might be less of a reflection on the mind of a deity and more a reflection on be the dark recesses of your own mind?
I don't find a simple question asked of the community to be inflammatory or trollish. I see no obvious attempts to debase a group or religion. Therefore, I shall answer!
The idea that the head of a wheat stalk is good for consumption while the chaff is not, is the best way to understand Hell.
I believe that God has made a place for those that finish life with a basic understanding of why it is better to do good than evil. Sadly, some will never obey. They see the good in the world, they understand what it is, but, for whatever reason, they refuse repentance. There are evil people in the world just as there are good people. There are some, and God is aware who they are, that would never repent and continue to perpetuate evil. This is the chaff that is thrown away by God. It is beyond salvation and will never call anyone it's master or contribute positively to humanity. It, in error, became it's own master.
Your explanation is about the standard. And, on the surface, I can see why you consider it to be a good one. But it's crazy.
It's giving up, on a cosmic scale. What is this about those who will never obey. Obey what? A deity who has hidden itself from them? Obey someone who claims to know a deity that hasn't shown itself?
Can you understand that is like falling someone on a physics test who was never given the information to study. And, that's a bad example because you are speaking of eternity. What type of person gives up on their fellow man on a cosmic scale?
And I understand where you're coming from Emile. I don't think you can put the Hell thing in a box with absolutes attached. Hell is condemnation. I don't believe that God would condemn anyone unfairly. He knows what's in a person's heart, whether they've heard of Him or not.
A good example of this is a child that is pressed into serving in the Army. The child is taught to kill and commit horrible atrocities from the men he marches with. Do I believe there is no chance this child will go to Heaven? Of course not. Hell is reserved for evil men who press children into killing for them, not the child himself.
I think someone has caused you to believe that God is judgmental and unfair. The God of Israel is the God of all people on Earth. He won't be favoring anyone for any reason other than the true goodness of their heart is my best guess.
That's not a bad explanation.
There is a lot of evil in religions that are perpetuated by its followers that does not contribute positively to humanity. Can we then assume those who perpetuate that evil will go to hell?
The matter of going to Hell seems to stem from what's in a person's heart. This is what I've decided, anyway. A person of influence in any religion that proclaims to be doing the work of God and then commits acts contrary to God's wishes probably knows they are doing so. If such a person were to have in their heart the will to carry on such behavior, against God's will, forever, then yes, I believe that person is lost forever.
The problem is when people proclaim to do the work of God that is actually in alignment with Gods wishes. Gods wishes encompass both good and evil behaviors of men towards one another.
Indeed, God has used evil men for His own purposes in the past and I think it's safe to assume he still does today.
Evil is NOT of "God". Not even capable of it. Period. He does not use evil people to do his work.
People are human. They carry out their agenda.
If people were to do "God's" work, then, we would be seeing more kindness, more love, more compassion, more respect. I don't see much of that going on.
YET< many claim to be doing His work. I say, yeah, whatever.
Why do I believe in Hell? Look around, we live it every day. It's all around us.
Jealousy, hatred, hunger, homeless.
Someone who is doing His work, will feed a hungry person. They are easy to find. Blankets are cheap, why not give one to a homeless person.
This hey, they choose that way of living mentality is not His way of thinking.
He has given many the means to help multitudes or several, but, greed prevents them.
I just can't figure out, are we on Hells floor or ceiling?
I noted the first reply to your tread and could not help but wonder what doctrines and splinter doctrines would emerge to defend the concept of hell. It is one of those items I always saw as the 'rubber band effect' - stretching, increasingly taunting and when it reaches its maximum, snaps and comes back to bite the beholder on the hand.
The oddity of the concept is the suggestive notion of judgement.
A judgement made by actions defined as good or evil.
These two parallels are always to blame, it seems, which lends one to look at the source of them. "The Knowing". So, if the Knowing or "knowledge of good-evil" is the source, the paradox and the judgment reserved for this and this alone, hell would also be preserved and served to and only in these parameters -no matter how taunt the band is stretched.
The mention of wheat and chaff again shows this. Chaff is also wheat. It is the stalk on which the head of wheat rests. However - and do watch closely all you fundies reading - chaff is inedible. It is considered evil, not good, and therefore useless. Technically, evil is that which is useless, void of illumination -like dark or dim, even lacking image, imagination, idea. Sin is evil (because it is the parallel of knowing good from evil), as well as, the law sinful. Both are -and were- useless to bring people to a full return/understanding of the stasis of Eternity. So, the head of wheat was plucked, and the chaff burned with an unquenchable fire. That chaffing which was useless, has now become fuel to further illuminate that stasis. What is useless has now become a useful product of unquenchable fire. Ta-ta chaff -and happy riddance to you.
Now, then, we continue the lesson. In accordance and concordance with the new covenant, this stasis of judgement, this paradox of Knowing, this hell resulted directly in one thing: death. And furthermore, in accordance and concordance with the Event, that paradox was swallowed up -that darkness swallowed up -that death made -that judgement made, to fulfill that "once to die; once for all" -- it no longer exists to hinder you, the human being, from achieving totality of el`ohim.
Hell was the madness from Adam to Immanu El (Joshua, Y'shua). John's vivid letter shows it clearly --and on a lesser level the documentaries/biographies of some of the witnesses. And those in that temporal, that hell, were delivered. Death and the paradox itself : hell, have been swallowed up in the victory over death -over what is useless -over the Knowing -over being concerned with what is Good or Evil. If you are still concerned about whether what you do is good or evil, you are still as Adam as, sitting -hiding- from understanding; caught in your own minds madness. Caught in the paradox of the "Knowledge of Good & Evil"
ps, I have through hell and back. Its called wordpress codex.
Thanks for the input James. As always, you put a beautiful spin on the whole subject. I'd certainly love to find out your words were the truth we are all searching for.
I can only say I have experienced it? am experiencing it?
I do know this: the entire purpose from the beginning was exactly that: to bring everybody back. I constantly remember this statement which no theologian, fundie, dundie, whatever can dispute: light draws everything to it; Creator draws all man to Him -living or dead. it is inevitable.
I had to go through this several times.
The oddity of the concept is the suggestive notion of judgment.
A judgment made by actions defined as good or evil.
I never see anything suggestive about judgment, except that some sort of judgment will occur and i see that as being the judgment which leads to acceptable and not acceptable referring to the qualifications for eternal (after)life.
These two parallels are always to blame, it seems, which lends one to look at the source of them.
This would be the Law?
"The Knowing". So, if the Knowing or "knowledge of good-evil" is the source, the paradox and the judgment reserved for this and this alone, hell would also be preserved and served to and only in these parameters -no matter how taunt the band is stretched.
The mention of wheat and chaff again shows this. Chaff is also wheat. It is the stalk on which the head of wheat rests.... unquenchable fire.
unquenchable fire. Ta-ta chaff -and happy riddance to you.
This was all you needed to say. Forgetting that part about knowing an illumination stuff... Chaff burns up totally. Its not really about the qualities of knowing. Its just stuff that burns up completely. Just like those who go to the lake of fire will also be burned up completely.
Now, then, we continue the lesson. In accordance and concordance with the new covenant, this stasis of judgement, this paradox of Knowing, this hell resulted directly in one thing: death.
Hell did not result toward death. Hell is what happens after death. Death directly results in the body being dead. I kinda wished you would have used fewer adjectives.
And furthermore, in accordance with the Event, that paradox was swallowed up -that darkness swallowed up -that death made -that judgment made, to fulfill that "once to die; once for all" -- it no longer exists to hinder you, the human being, from achieving totality of el`ohim.
No idea what you are trying to say, but, scripturally, one can only achieve el'ohim state by the guidance of God during ones lifetime. Once to die; once for all I have never encountered in the bible. Death if i understand correctly, does not hinder because there is no growth beyond the grave, no reincarnation.. just judgment resulting in a person either listened to jesus christ as the son of God or did not.
Hell was the madness from Adam to Immanu El (Joshua, Y'shua).
I'd like to see more evidence of this theory. Where did you get this from?
John's vivid letter shows it clearly --and on a lesser level the documentaries/biographies of some of the witnesses.
I'd prefer a more simplistic and yet clearer explanation of what you mean here please.
And those in that temporal, that hell, were delivered. Death and the paradox itself : hell, have been swallowed up in the victory over death -over what is useless -over the Knowing -over being concerned with what is Good or Evil. If you are still concerned about whether what you do is good or evil, you are still as Adam as, sitting -hiding- from understanding; caught in your own minds madness. Caught in the paradox of the "Knowledge of Good & Evil"
So many non biblical theories spinning some strange web i cannot relate to what is being spoken of here. Adam sinned, adam died there is not more to it than that really. Caught in ones own minds madness sounds ridiculous... with Christ brings peace of mind. Madness may exist in the unsaved mind but i don't know if i want to term anything like that. Being concerned about good or evil is important, but more important is to rely on the power of God working in the child of Gods life.
Hell was created for the devil and his angels. The devil was in the presence of God in all His glory, yet he decided he wanted to be better and higher than God. He knew God face to face. He was a praise leader in Heaven and decided to go his own way.
Since he is destined for hell, he decided to try and take as many as possible with him. God does not take away the freedom of choice that we have been given. Yet God in all His glory gave His only begotten son. Who did He give His son to? He gave Him to the world. And we saw Him as stricken of God, but it was not God that hung Him on the cross. It was mankind.
God wants to save everyone. He wants everyone to repent and be saved. He also knows that many will not choose to believe.
for the sake of the reader, I must pause you in this road.
Setting a stumbling block in front of others is, well, to be quite frank, rude; and shows a vast gap in understanding.
As a scholar, a former theistic minister, and now --well, I shall refrain indulgence-- respectfully request you provide - from Torah, Jubilees or even the Letters- proof of the existence of this angel. Not one line in any script confirms it. This story of an angel toppling heaven, warring against Creator and taunting humanity, is an old wives tale, handed down because of the influence of ba`al practices. Not even Enoch recognizes such an entity.
Thank you much in advance,
Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia. This is not speaking of a mere man. Jesus said those who do not follow God follow after their father Satan.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! I know many say this is not speaking of Satan but in the same context as used in Daniel, it does speak of Satan.
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Mat_25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: Jesus own words spoken in this verse. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Man was never meant to go there but yet they will go simply because they refuse to believe in God through Jesus Christ.
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. We see that the devil has angels. Who created angels?
Zec_4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. You can talk about your credentials all you want. Without the teaching of the spirit, they mean nothing.
Eze_28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Tabrets and pipes are musical instruments. He was in the garden of Eden.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Who can be anointed and by whom? He was on the holy mountain of God and walked in the midst of the stones of fire which is the glory of God. Walls of Jasper, streets of Gold, gates of Pearl.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. He was perfect up to the time that iniquity was found in him.
Hi virgil. I wouldn't begin to ponder, or discuss, the meaning of the words by the prophets of the Old Testament, but I'm curious how you came to that conclusion from that passage in Matthew. I just read that and it sounds as if it was simply exhorting people to show compassion and love for one another. That all of humanity is tied to God. Not insisting anyone believe in God through Jesus Christ, as you've said. Did I miss something?
I don't have time to go into any details right now but if you would read John 3:16-20 it would help you to understand. You can also read Romans 10:9.10.
matthew 25. goats on the left, sheep on the right. Goats = not of jewish people, sheep = the jewish nation. This is typically discussed as an anti-Semitic passage but i prefer to think of sheep as Gods people and Goats as the unsaved. In both lights the scriptures are about not being persecuted, either the non-jews persecuting the jews or the unsaved not persecuting the saved. Its about attitude too and yes, love.
The original use the words adversary for devil and messenger for angels. In keeping with the intent of the previous scriptures these refer to people and not angelic beings, we need to know that this scripture is talking about people and has not switched subjects to angelic beings, since, what fire could hurt angelic beings? The term everlasting means as in other scriptures, a set period of time. aeon or age.
The only everlasting fire is:
Hebrews 12:29 "For our God is a consuming fire"
As for Daniel 10.. the prince of the kingdom of persia are the Medes (Daniel 8:10-20). We know that wars happen and that God has influence over the outcome and therefore i think it not illogical to assume that this 21 days were crucial days in this battle and that Michael, as angles at other times, was directly involved in enforcing Gods will in the battle, certainly no satan was involved.
As for isaiah well, that is speaking of a man and we know this because it repeats the word man 3 times.. and that in Hebraic and jewish customs means, Pay attention to this!. The mount of the congregation in the sides of the north refers to jerusalem - not some heavenly city. Lucifer mentioned once in the bible has not enough scriptural support for anyone to make a doctrine out of it or refer it to satan. That breaks a major code of bible interpretation. Isaiah 13 and 14 go together... Is 13 starts... For the lord... its connected to chapter 13 which is titled in any good bible, The Burden of Babylon, incidentally, chapter 15, The Burden of Moab, these are in a long list of 'Burdens' to different countries. Isaiah also specifically mentions that it is a proverb and isa 14:4 is the only time proverb is mentioned in the book of Isaiah. Isaiah 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon. i could go on about this but i won't.
Eze_28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God
Ezekiel 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him - talks of the Pharoah of Egypt, but no one thinks this is satan yet also in the garden of God.. the garden of god is allegorical, it means the place on earth that eden once was, geographically and in present day. Also in Eze 28 it goes on to mention all about minerals and Eden was vegetative not mineral.
The anointed cherub that covereth refers to Tyre and Israels special agreement they had under solomon. Eze 28:15 refers to the crowning of the prince of tyre. He was fine until he became king and then pride got a hold of him.
I could go on but i won't.
Rev_12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan.
This is johns letter from PRISON. In order to get a letter out one had to be careful what words were written because letters were screened and to say anything negative about rome is a breaking of a roman law and the letter would not get out and resulted in charges of sedition punishable by death.
Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: This is written to the church at pergamos. Do we really think that satan had a seat there. It was a roman occupied nation.
Zec 4:6 is correct
Eze 28:13 "the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created"
Workmanship H4399 deputyship, that is ministry. abstractly the result of work. When kinds were crowned there was a great celebration. Music being a huge part of it. If you go here: http://bible.cc/ezekiel/28-13.htm and read other translations it might spell it out for you. The musical instruments were not a part of the angel. And the gems were part of the ornamentation of the robes the (prince being crowned) king wore.
Heres an excerpt from that page, lower down
"Every precious stone - All the stones here named are found in the High priest's breastplate Exodus 28:17-20, but their order is different, and three stones named in Exodus (the third row) are wanting. The prophet may purposely have varied the description because the number twelve (that of the tribes of Israel) had nothing to do with the prince of Tyrus, and he wished to portray, not a high priest, but a king, having in view a figure which was to a Jew, especially to a priest, the very type of magnificence.
Tabrets - (or, drums) and "pipes" were a common expression for festivity and triumph."
Perhaps if one were to read the above passages other than literally one might just get a different meaning.? Or not?
Literally is sometimes good, but generally speaking we can get the most out of scripture by reading the verses before and after our point of interest, sometimes even way back to previous chapters.
Also concerning timelines, the prophetic books overlap and reference each other often, one can sometimes shed light on the other.
but the real detective here, is the spirit of God and His revealing power. Often he leads people along the right and proper track of interpretation which leads to astounding conclusions.
Also when a verse is not to be taken literally is just obvious but then sometimes it is actually explained by giving the meanings of the symbols.
@ Emile,please don't make matter worse...Since you're not a believer, why not leave it to the CREATOR. Respect others beliefs and religions and you'll be respected too.
Been there. Tried to do that. It doesn't work.
You attempt to have what you perceive as an intelligent conversation and you get side tracked by those politely, in their minds, sharing that hell is your destination. I'm simply curious why anyone would want to believe such tripe.
Conversely, those who politely imply that the Creator should be left to do what it wants and leave hell as an option are not respecting my belief that no Creator would be that callous toward its creation.
A bit of a conundrum, don't you think?
The Creator has every right to do whatever he wants. Anyway, he knows best! The rest, it's beyond our control. Believe it or not, it's up to individual. As for now, I rest my case ;D
We are all human beings and we all belong to HUMAN Race and being human we should be able to accommodate respect and honour for each other's religion and belief.
Hell is naught....
Those who misunderstand this will create a fearful concept for himself and others.
Thus each is bound by the parameters of that which he has set, so by such they live within their own false concepts...
And Hell itself is made up of such of these...
So what is hell? Hell is the exact opposite of Heaven..
So if you misunderstand Heaven, then it stands to reason that your understanding of Hell is also askew.
But where there is the True understanding, Hell itself can only show Heaven.
The Earth is the product of the enlargement of hell.
And the purpose of its enlargement is so that those caught within can free themselves from it...
This is why Christ/Light is known as redeemer, and it is this same Light/Christ that shows us the nature of hell.
All in the Earth are destined for redemption, but their redemption is not necessarily for this age...For each has his specific season.. and thse are they that will die their death and in their Lifetime will preach the doctrine of Hell.
It was destined to be so from the very beginning and these cannot help themselves for the Light/Christ is still hidden from them so that they will continue to misunderstand.....
So just as it is written the Light within them is darkness and that darkness is great,strong and unmovable for now.
So we see Hell is Death, darkness and are naught...
But it is not something to be feared but are present to serve the Good purpose of Life,Light and Heaven...
Those who understand this will receive their portion in their Lifetime whilst still in the Earth in the flesh which we call man..
I believe that Hell is eternal separation and estrangement from God, happiness, all that good stuff. I don't believe God intends that for anyone, but some people, as CS Lewis addressed in The Great Divorce, even when they know they could be happy eternally, still reject that offer in favor of Hell.
I like your response. I remember being confused when I read The Stand. I couldn't understand why anyone would go to the dark side. Years later I met a man. He simply didn't understand how truly dark he was. Completely void of love and compassion, but he didn't know it. He honestly believed he was always doing the right thing. He was one of those who might consider hell heaven. He wouldn't know he was separated. That's the only fair hell I can imagine. Somewhere where there is happiness in the emptiness.
He died a couple of years ago. I heard he found Jesus on his death bed. I found that to be a curiosity, but if he died in peace I guess that's all that matters.
You hit the nail on the head there didn't you? No one perseves themselves to be evil or bad. Hitler was his own biggest fan.
I don't think there is any happiness in the emptiness. There is just, at best, acceptance of the "safe" and familiar sinful and destructive attachments.
I tend to agree with the estrangement and separation but eternal?
The book sounds very intriguing. Nice title
Those are the options laid out before us, permanent reconciliation or estrangement. It's not like every day we have here isn't enough chance to make up where we've messed up.
One would first have to no what they are making up. We live in an ever changing world that is constant. The constant is what is eternal. The ever changing is the perceived separation and estrangement.
Sounds like excuses. Not everything in the world is constantly changing, and not all changes are for the better. There are some things that are certain regardless of what else changes. Right and wrong remain fairly constant, and the ultimate choice is a lot simpler than we like to think. Friendship with the Creator of the Universe and everything necessary for perfect happiness, or not. You don't need to know much to make a decent choice there.
I agree choice is simpler than we think. For sure there are some that make excuses for their mess ups. Then there are those who have no idea why they do. Many of which have conditionings that are deep at the core of their psyche, where the origins are not that apparent. Meaning much of how they think has been conditioned long before they could make their own choices. Usually highly subconscious.
I have not yet found any thing that doesn't change in the world? For better or worse change is inevitable. If we do not understand this we are less likely to embrace the changes that occur. Right and wrong is constantly changing and is dependent on the individual.
It is our relationship with God that will determine how well we embrace changes.
I love that you are always asking questions Emile. If you don't ask, you'll never know, is the adage.
We look for goodness, we are drawn to it, we follow it, we know it leads to joy. Who knows why.The Hitlers of this world are quite determined to subvert goodness and pursue ugliness and corruption. Who knows why.
Hitler's hell was his own making. I think that what we search for on behalf of others is what we may find for ourselves.
We cannot know the mysteries of the afterlife.
I've quoted it before and I'll do so again: St. Augustine said, "The day we stop trying to be good is the day we stop being good".
A person cannot accidentally loosing his everlasting soul. It isn't like buying the wrong train ticket. One must knowingly and continually pursue misery to guarantee it for yourself.
That's a good answer. I suppose, in the absence of knowledge, we are left to our actions. We do tend to create a living hell for ourselves and those around us at times.
I do like your posts. The Catholic church appears to give its adherents the tools they need to live life philosophically, if you are the average example of that faith.
Left and right
Like day and night
That's what makes the world go round
In and out
Thin and stout
That's what makes the world go round
For every up there is a down
For every square there is a round
For every high there is a low
For every to there is a fro
To and fro
Stop and go
That's what makes the world go round
You must set your sights upon the heights
Don't be a mediocrity
Don't just wait and trust to fate
And say, that's how it's meant to be
It's up to you how far you go
If you don't try you'll never know
And so my lad as I've explained
Nothing ventured, nothing gained
You see my boy it's nature's way
Upon the weak the strong ones prey
The human life it's also true
The strong will try to conquer you
That is what you must expect
Unless you use your intellect
Brains and brawn, weak and strong
That's what makes the world go round
It's a truth. We only need look at the world to know that all do not flourish. There is a natural balance, a natural order to the universe. If one wants to understand God, they need to look around them more. Does this mean that there must be evil in the world? Yes, I believe it does. I don't pretend to understand why, but I can understand the balance going on around us.
You see a balance? Let me ask you this. Say there was a pit that, if something fell into it, they would be tortured unmercifully, but kept alive as long as there was life on earth. You see a black mamba, a stink bug and a tarantula writhing in pain. It is within your power to rescue them. Would you shrug your shoulders and share your philosophy about the beauty of balance, or would you save them?
I can't save them because God has reserved judgement for Himself.
A pastor once put it to me like this: If, at the end of my life, I've not repented, felt badly for my sin, and relied on Jesus as my personal sacrifice to cleanse me of sin, I will be cut off from God. He told me that this was what Hell really was, being cut off from God.
Again, I think this state exists for those that God knows will NEVER repent. Their hollow prayers would never be heard, no matter what environment they found themselves in.
I get what you are saying, but we all stumble around in the dark. I find it unfathomable that there would be eternal retribution for a piddly 70-80 years worth of behavior that fell short of compassion for others. No matter how unremorseful someone might appear to be. And finally knowing, but not being allowed to draw close would be the worst of all punishments.
The idea of God should be above petty retribution. I just get the impression that many believers don't quite grasp the magnitude of eternity. Because if they do, and still believe in hell, it worries me. I can't wrap my mind around such an evil intent.
what if the tarantula was hitler, the black mamba, Mussolini, and the stink bug Pol Pot? Would you rescue any of them?
The tarantula would be resuced by Nazis
The black mamba by facists
Pol Pot by Maoist revolutionaries
But God favors no person above another.
Extinction and obliteration await all who do not measure up
"Extinction and obliteration await all who do not measure up." That contradicts:
- the definition of justice
- the definition of judgement
- eye for an eye, hand for hand, tooth for tooth, etc; punishment fitting the crime.
- the statement oft repeated in the psalms "His love endures forever".
- "love your enemies and do good to them".
- if Yashua died for the sin of the World and took the judgement upon Himself, then if "not measuring up" is a sin, then that is also taken care of. For God to obliterate those "that don't measure up" then by definition His mission to the World was insufficient; a failure.
No it does not contradict anything.
Hell contradicts as a place of eternal torment.
Obliteration is much more merciful than that.
definition of justice.. if you cannot enter the kingdom of God then what else is left for you? Where ya gonna go? Is God gonna lock you up forever and ever?
Jesus talked about the chaff that was burned up. Jesus talked lots about judgment.
His love endures forever.
Psalm 106.. talking to Gods people.
107:1 .. talking to Gods people.
118:1 O give thanks unto the Lord for his is good; because his mercy endures for ever.
:2 Let ISRAEL now say that his mercy endures forever... talking to his people.
:3 Let the house of Aaron now say... his mercy endures forever
:4 Let them now that fear the Lord say, his mercy endures forever.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
And yes Gods love endures forever to his people because they live forever and God love endures until the death of those who are not his people. So again, context.
Love your enemies and do good to them.
Yes and God loves them too, but to give them free ride into all he has is not what a God of truth does. God cannot just ignore the sins of unbelievers, he must be a judge otherwise he is not true to himself or his ways which are based on truth, honesty and goodness.
Jesus loved his enemies yet stands as judge over the whole earth.
eye for an eye etc.. was part of the Law not part of the new covenant of Jesus christ, which is grace, spirit and love.
His mission to the world insufficient?
You were doing so well, don't tell me you are a universal salvationist?
You will have to explain, jesus mission as a failure to me, because as far as i am concerned, Jesus is what brought me to God in the first place and his death made the spirit available which is the strength to overcome sins in the flesh. And his resurrection gives me hope in that what i do is eternal with Him. I am sorry i do not see the failure at all.
This is all wrong, everyone knows Eru Ilúvatar created Arda with the help of the Ainur.
The same punishment for all that don't measure up, obliteration contradicts judgement and punishment fitting the crime. Judgement by definition is about balance, a decision based upon the case presented. Perhaps you think that a juvenile who has stolen a bottle of whiskey from the local shop should receive a life sentence along with the peodophile.
At the great white throne it is clearly stated that those people are being judged in accordance with their works done in the Earth. So the punishment/discipline cannot by definition be the same for everyone.
Now If in accordance with works then they are not being judged in accordance with belief. That would make no sense because belief is entirely dependant upon another person; whether one was actually presented with the gospel by a Christian who spoke with a credibility of a Christian lifestyle. Now if belief in Jesus was required, then by what measure of belief are those to be judged who died before he came into the Earth?
If belief was the key factor then those Christiand that occasionally wilfully sin get off but those who just happen to have not believed but nevertheless lived a lifestyle of goodness are obliterated. Does thus make sense to you.
Right at the end of revelation we are told about those outside of the new Jerusalem. How can this be so if they have been obliterated? The tree of life has leaves for healing the nations. Is this a single on off event for those only in the city or and ongoing process for healing the nations of people outside the city? Why are the gates never closed unless those within are occasionally going out? Why do they want to go out and be exposed to the dogs, the fornicators, the sorcerers etc? Notice the timid are also excluded. I know people to timid to drive a car; are they to be excluded from the city?
If brimstone is in the lake of fire, what's the purpose? It was used 2000 years ago as a cleansing agent, a purifier, a fumigant. Why would you sing about Gods consuming purifying fire to cleans you from sin but take satisfaction that the same fire will obliterate those that don't measure up?
Yes I'm a universal Salvationist as the majority of the Jews are today. There was also a principle established by God with the sacrifice for the sins of Israel. He commanded the priest to offer a yearly sacrifice for the atonement of sin. Was this sacrifice only valid on an individual basis whereby each person in Israel had to formally ask for it? Or was it an act that God commanded the priest to carry out irrespective of the conditions of each individual? The sacrifices established the idea that a universal sacrifice on behalf of the people was sufficient to cover their sin. And so it is with Jesus. If the sin of not believing is not covered then we don't have a complete sacrifice that is all sufficient do we?
Based on a numbers game of 98% of humanity being obliterated, we have a failed mission.
The same punishment for all that don't measure up, obliteration contradicts judgment and punishment fitting the crime.
God is not crime based. We notice in the OT that death was the punishment for many varieties and intensities of sin. God believes in capital punishment then and he never changes and believes in capital punishment in the final judgment. We see that God is intent on his nation being clean from sin and the same should be in our fathers house.
Judgment by definition is about balance, a decision based upon the case presented. Perhaps you think that a juvenile who has stolen a bottle of whiskey from the local shop should receive a life sentence along with the pedophile.
God of course is able to save both. The judgment they shall receive after they die depends on who was still saved. After repentance there is no difference in Gods eyes. Jesus died for all but all must bear their individual burdens. To those who overcome are the rewards. The child who steals whiskey no longer stole whiskey in christ and the pedophile no longer pedded a phile, in christ. So moot point. But if neither come to christ then both are lost.
At the great white throne it is clearly stated that those people are being judged in accordance with their works done in the Earth. So the punishment/discipline cannot by definition be the same for everyone.
The great white throne is God the fathers judgment seat and he presides over all those people not in christ. The judgment seat of christ is for those who are in christ. God the father will judge all those who are not in christ but their end will be the same, they are lost and have no place with God because they repented not.
Are there levels in hell? Do hitler and all his nazi friends get one level with pot poi and mussolini while others get another level with the drinkers and fornicators? Ya know i don't believe in hell anyway. God never has loose ends hanging around.
Now If in accordance with works then they are not being judged in accordance with belief.
James 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
This is talking about the kind of works that Faith or belief - the two words are interchangeable - instigates, it promotes. The faith is causing the works to be done. But wait, that sounds like the law. We gotta do a bunch of works, do good deeds. But we are not under law. There is a difference between the works that God wants us to do and sitting on a corner with pamphlets every day. Some works are not God inspired. God wants the work that belief in Him inspires. Dunno if i explained that well enough.
That would make no sense because belief is entirely dependant upon another person; whether one was actually presented with the gospel by a Christian who spoke with a credibility of a Christian lifestyle.
not actually. Finger pointing is not a good excuse to God. Ultimately the question is "what have you done" and not, "what has someone else done". To keep this short.. all we are required to do is answer questions to the best of our ability.. (ahh a light just went on and i have my answer, thanks you helped) and God gives the increase. Yes living an exemplary christian lifestyle helps but it is not what gives their belief substance. Most don't get to see the lifestyle, they just hear the word - at least that is my experience when witnessing, it is usually random and to people i do not know.
Now if belief in Jesus was required, then by what measure of belief are those to be judged who died before he came into the Earth?
They are under the dispensation of law that God gave to moses and will be judged by that law, but wait... Romans 4:3 " For what says the scriptures? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness". Your answer is in romans chapter 4 and hebrews 11.
faith. Christ is a different dispensation and only pertinent to those in Christ.
Personally i think the millennial reign is to bring those back to experience christ. Not all, just the Hebrews.
If belief was the key factor then those Christian that occasionally wilfully sin get off
In christ we get rewards, not wrath, which is what sinners get.
1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; <--degrees of work.
1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved;,-- those in Christ, vs 11
but those who just happen to have not believed but nevertheless lived a lifestyle of goodness are obliterated.
Again you have stumbled into a works based religion. Nobody can get to God without knowing God, and Christ is the way to God. So it is not by any persons works or efforts that they may make themselves acceptable to God, but only through the work of the cross of christ.
Does thus make sense to you.
More sense that eternal torture forever.
Right at the end of revelation we are told about those outside of the new Jerusalem. How can this be so if they have been obliterated?
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whore mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
So who is left?
The tree of life has leaves for healing the nations.
[i] Revelation 21:24 And the NATIONS of them which ARE SAVED shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
Why are the gates never closed unless those within are occasionally going out?
New Jerusalem comes to earth and we get to roam around all over the earth and we will assemble when the appointed feasts are goin on.
We are not caged into just living in the city.
that's all ya get.
fewer questions next time please. I hit the wrong close tab button and lost the entire previous post. lol.
If a human judge can draw a distinction between a juvenille shop lifter and a pedophile, don't you think God can?
Sure prior to Christ's mission Israel was under Moses dispensation, but by what measure were ancient Romans, Greeks, native Americans, and Australian aborigines to be judged?
Prior dispensation or not the mosaic law is a patten of Christ. If the priest made sacrifices on behalf of the people so that their sins were covered irrespective of whether or not the individual people asked him to, then Christ's sacrifice also is made on behalf of the people and covers their sin irrespective of whether they ask or not. Perhaps you don't believe John the Baptist who called Him the 'Lamb that takes away the sin of the World'. You don't believe that sin is taken away because you think God will obliterate 98% of humanity.
All those who's names are not in the book of life are thrown into the lake of fire (which cannot logically be literal as we would then have to take the whole of symbolic revelation as literal). Do a bible search and you will not find a single instance where it is explicitly stated how one's name comes to be written there in the first place. To say that believing in Jesus is the requirement is assumption. In psalm 69 David asks God to remove his enemies from the book of life. So these enemies, the bad guys, were safe and sound from the lake of fire without a requirement to believe in Jesus. Did God answer David's prayer? Who knows. David was a vengeful man who shed an awful lot of blood before shagging his friends wife and having him killed; hardly a role model for goodness and virtue. Neither are we told how to get blotted out of the book of life; only that those dressed in white will definitely not be.
Now if 98% of humanity is scheduled for obliteration don't you think that something so important would have been mentioned in the Hebrew scriptures? Here the ultimate penalty inflicted by God is death, no mention of punishment after death; just 'resting with fathers'. In Daniel 12 we are told that all will be resurrected with some to shame and everlasting contempt. Aside from the debate of whether Olam means eternal in practice, how can one exist in everlasting shame if they have been obliterated?
Now consider the pharaoh at the time of exodus. It was God who continually hardened his heart so that he sinned against Israel. According to Paul in Romans 9 pharaoh was raised up for that very purpose and God chooses who to show mercy to and who not to. Looks to me that pharaoh has a mitigating argument in his defence.
According to Jeremiah 27 if any nation will not serve Nebuchadnezzar God will punish that nation with the sword famine and plague. He was a pagan. Looks to me that he also has a mitigating argument in his defence.
Look up Prov 16:9, 19:21, 20:24 and Jer 10:23. No mans life is his own, God directs his steps. Therefore God's will is done in everyone's life. This is reinforced in Isaiah 46:10-11. He will accomplish his will and plans, and it is his will that all men be saved. This is not some fanciful half hearted wish that He knows cannot be accomplished.
Perhaps you don't believe 1 Cor 15:21-22, ALL die in Adam and ALL will be made alive in Christ. Or perhaps you want to attach strings to this?
Paul states in 2 Cor 4 that the God of this World (this is God not some Satan) has blinded the thoughts of unbelievers, which confirms the same statement by Jesus in John 12. Looks to me that these unbelievers have a mitigating argument.
In 2 Chron 28 and 2 Chron 33 we are told that Gods wrath is upon Ahaz and Manasseh for burning their own children in the furnaces. So don't you think you are making God to be a hypocritical monster for doing the very same thing? Don't say that unbelievers are not Gods children because Paul in Acts 17 would disagree with you.
That's as much as I'm going to say here. Except that the New testament is not scripture anyway; only the Hebrew ones are. You can only form doctrine from the Hebrew scriptures; the new testament is useful as background understanding of the beliefs of the authors of the letters, but by no means are we compelled to agree with everything they wrote. The NT was selected by the Catholic Church by committee and in particular regard to Revelation it was only included in AD 397. Even so much of the early church disputed it's validity and if it hadn't been for the Church declaring that this John was the same John the apostle, it would not have been included.
Yes, I would save them. Not because I viewed them as my children, but because they are brothers. We are all human. Compassion trumps retribution. I could not live with myself if I punished others eternally simply because I perceived their actions as wrong.
But what actions did they do wrong and by giving a clean slate to all you just encourage them to harm others.
So your neighbor has sex with your husband... no problem sister. Hey husband brother luv ya. A guy walks into your house unplugs your computer and walks out the door, no problem.
Give us a break. This sounds like another tailor made response just to try to show yourself above all people and God.
You see you don't understand the permanency of eternal life with a God that witnesses to truth every day and see the harm of lies, deceit and hatred every day. You think it is all a big game.
To God the stakes are higher, the requirements different that what you think and the whole living in the house forever and ever is based on again, differences than what you think.
God sees people living on the street and freezing or starving every day and you think He doesn't care or notices? The very same get out of jail free card that you want to dispense to all would make this situation so much larger our societies would be as before the flood.
You don't understand the concept of the spiritual. You are too mired in, as you would put it, the carnal. I could attempt to explain, but you wouldn't attempt to understand. There's nothing wrong with that. To each his own.
Heaven and hell were invented by religion to keep the perceived riffraff in line.
Because there has to be somewhere for political leaders to go after death!
I'm happy to say this doesn't apply to all. Only to some...
@Emile, hardly trollish or inflammatory to me. Trollish merely means disrupting a discussion already started. But hey, you're starting the discussion. Bravo! A troll would be someone coming in making wild comments that don't contribute to your discussion. So, thanks for starting the ball rolling.
What is disconcerting is that you continually don't get what is really very simple: people choose hell. God doesn't want to give them that, but they choose it.
The grand quest -- the purpose of Homo sapiens and civilization is one of spiritual awakening. Spirit alone could not do it. Too chaotic. How much can you get done in your dreams? That's why Homo sapiens bodies were important -- intelligent language. But hunter-gatherers couldn't do much. They needed the freedoms afforded them by civilization. So, here we are.
But so many have forgotten why we're here. They're looking for fun, money and power. They think they are their Homo sapiens bodies. They're missing out on the opportunity to awaken spiritually into the permanent, immortal consciousness of a child of God. Instead, they wallow in ignorance of the Homo sapiens body. So, when the rescue mission is over and some have refused to be rescued... that's hell. Their choice; not God's.
Simple, but you keep asking. Maybe that's why it seems "trollish." Perhaps you're not "listening." By design? Or is it that you still don't get it?
Not coming to the same conclusion you come to doesn't mean the other party doesn't 'get it'. That's your ego showing.
or a fact
He is right that God doesn't want to give them, pardon the silly term, hell but if we use hell as a metaphor for separation from God that works for me, albeit, a permanent separation - second death.
Its kind of like God set people to live on the planet, and cities were formed, now because people do bad things jails were made. Do judges want to send people to jail. No, but they do because in some way these people who are going to jail have forfeited their right to live in society for a while.
Jails were made because people do bad things.
Separation from God exists because people do things that God considers bad.
I agree with the sentiment in first sentence of your post.
As to the rest of your post, you need to refer to that first sentence to understand what it is worth.
I can't believe you missed that whole point.
What i can believe is that you intended purposely to miss that whole point.
And if that is the type of quality you intend to bring in here then i just can't tell you what i think that is worth.
Well, I tend to pay attention to those who have a valid point. But, please feel free to stop putting your penny's worth in at every turn. I don't consider your viewpoint in a spiritual dialogue of any more value than you consider mine. I don't mean that unkindly, although I'm sure you will view it as such. Your behavior in your posts concerning my father's illness pretty much made me realize that your vision and mine are at opposite ends of the spectrum.
Of course they are
every post of yours says where you stand.
to bad you could not understand the love in mine.
good luck at that other end of the spectrum.
You really, really need to get a better dictionary. Love and hateful retribution are not synonymous.
It was written long before we were born. That is"the case". Maybe you need some revision to do. The choice is yours.
We all have choices to make. I choose not to imagine I've won some cosmic lottery and others didn't. That type of mentality flies in the face of the most important lessons you were taught, since you are obviously a Christian. It's funny how selfish desire always trumps love of our fellow man. Why is that? Do you think?
I think we need a hubble telescope to see that far out in left field.
Its not a lottery, omgosh. and then you proceed to comment about that persons mental health.
and then accuse of being selfish.
Give us all a break
You need a lot more revision and some hard study.
That's what i think and i kept this short.
You kept it short. There's a silver lining in everything. Even nonsensical posts.
I did not question anyone's mental health. Is english your primary language?
I was wondering that.
Last night he tried to correct a word I used but the word he corrected was the wrong word.
Oh it was so funny. He had this long winded post that was so pretentious and haughty.
He used dictionary definitions and everything.
But it was the wrong word.
He stopped posting on that thread last night.
You can find it on the thread jesuswasahippy started if you need a laugh.
Oh, he just tried to prove me wrong again after reading this but he failed to read one of the definitions.
He was arrogant again.
He was wrong again.
Getting kind of sad.
I think married women aren't good to look for either.
You are John incase you forgot.
I think Walden is a book you have never read.
Some very fine buildings have been erected by rich men who feared hell and wanted to placate a vengeful God. I suppose the idea isn't all bad.
Good point. Fear of God has been known to cause a behavior change or, if nothing more, motivated people to spend money and resources trying to make amends. But, you'd have to share the names of those men. None come to mind.
Those who have been motivated by the love and compassion are known to all. They may have believed in hell; but I am not aware of it.
Nimrod for one. Tower of babel.
Anybody involved in idol worship for two - the greeks and romans were heavy on this aspect.
Odd, how come you are not aware of it? hmmm.
The tower of babel was not an attempt to appease God. The Greeks and Romans were not attempting to appease God. The gentleman was speaking of those with belief in the Christian faith.
Do try to keep up.
no the tower of babel was not an attempt to appease God, it was to foil Gods plan of flooding. They have found the tower of babel, archaeologically, and it was made of pitch, a waterproof material, for mortar, is only 295 feet high and unfinished plus shows signs of water seepage at the foundation.
They built it motivated by the fear of God. Nimrod was trying to show the people he could thwart God.
I don't have to keep up I do have to increase your knowledge base.
Sorry, but that isn't proof of the Tower of Babel. It's just a tower.
Orthanc is the tower in the middle of Isengard. During the assault on Isengard, the Ents destroyed most of the surrounding area, but could not harm Orthanc, for it is made of a single piece of unbreakable black stone.
What is interesting is the fate of the palantirs.
So, you admit the Bible is flawed? If not; how, pray tell, did you come to that conclusion about the flood when the tower was a long time after the flood and your words directly contradict the reasons given in that passage of Genesis?
Oh, I forgot. God tells you what car to purchase, so he probably told you to go ahead and rewrite the Bible. You're just that special. Not.
Again. I'm typing slow so you can follow......the guy was speaking of modern day Christians. Not ancient man. Commit that to memory.
Man is flawed in his perfection. Makes sense that the bible would be flawed.
I'm just typing what i have read. Seepage could be from anything but i think it interesting that it is not common to all ziggurats found.
I am decided, emile that discussion with you is futile and unnecessary. In future i will type what i type and leave it at that. Feel free to comment as i know you will but don't expect a reply.
Well the tower of orthanc in isengard was indestructible..
oh wait, you think the Babel tower was real, that's just sad.
I guess I won't ask you about the validity of the big fish and Jonah as I don't feel like being more depressed with humanity.
I had to comment on this one last post. You should have asked him about the big fish. I've read his answer to that one in other threads. It's hilarious.
I like how fundamentalists won't even acknowledge it was a whale.
no the bible says big fish.
And I'll be like
we haven't had fish that big for millions of years.
Then they're like
the earth is 6000 years old.
And then im all
oh man you're serious...
Jonah 1:17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights.
So lets see.
i have to acknowledge that this is a whale. I am sorry i cannot. The definition doesn't say whale or mammal and i refuse to read more into scripture that i am allowed.
God prepared (made special, suited to the need) a great (large, big) fish...
Now oh great mentalists.. if God had used an already made fish would jonah be able to exist in the stomach acids?
Fish that have a stomach, generally secrete stomach acid (HCl). However, not all fish have a stomach. For example carp have no stomach and thus no stomach acid secretion, neither are they big enough unless God used this fish only made it bigger, but then does the carp have intestines and do they secrete acids to break down food. I guess you will have to figure that out for yourselves.
Some fish have no stomach, whales certainly do.
The average every-day whale or dolphin has three stomach CHAMBERS. Not "stomachs", "stomach CHAMBERS". The first chamber, called the fore stomach, is the only stomach chamber you'll end up living in. It's a mechanical stomach, sort of an "extension" of the esophagus. The whales and dolphins are able to use this stomach to store food for later. The second chamber, the main stomach, is where TRUE chemical digestion takes place. The opening is said to be minuscule, so in order to get to that stomach chamber, you'd have to be crushed in the first one, seemingly the first chamber crushes food, hmmm...Not too pleasant.
The third, the pyloric stomach, neutralizes any stomach acid traveling with the food remains so that it makes a safe trip through the intestines.
SOOOOO although it may be possible to exist in a whale i would say only in the first chamber. But i also say, big deal.
If any old whale would do, why would God prepare a special fish and on that note i rest my case.
I hope you were not too serious by your intellectual statements of ignorance.
... thinkin you're lookin rather foolish about this one.
Oh good now i know that those who are laughing know nothing.
it is as i have always thought.
What kind of fish was it that ate Jonah? A magical one from god?
not so hilarious after all huh.
i'm thinkin you're lookin rather foolish to
cant use too as in also... there is no also. You are alone in your lookin foolish.
We were supposed to think deeply and wisely before we say something that might hurt others...so have it your way then cos I've my own...
So, it appears that neither of us thought deeply enough. If my words have offended you; please accept my apologies.
You and me have different beliefs.Therefore, I don't feel offended or hurt at all. I'm just referring to the subject and contents you've written,that's all.
I do feel hurt, if I find that my words have hurt others. I am certainly guilty of posting hastily, at times.
Unfortunately, the only way for someone of different beliefs not to offend the religious is to keep their mouths tightly closed; while the religious don't feel compelled to extend the same courtesy they arrogantly demand of others. It's caused me to learn to be less worried about my behavior in the forums.
another tailor made response.
I got news for ya your responses have always been insulting and not just to me, but to you also.
If you think the only way not to offend is to keep your mouth shut i would hate to destroy that wrong thought but, a civil discussion shows both sides of an issue with some persuasive evidence. It is never just an opinion unless that opinion sums up some contextual information that can be backed up. it is never harsh, it is at best, explanatory and offered in a state of humbleness - something you never had even from the beginning and you still don't.
Please don't tell me you think YOU are humble, Brotheryochanan? That would be a laugh.
You need to look at to whom i am replying.
Diehard critics who have no basis in facts but just speculation dictated by their own agendas, I do not give humble.
Humble would do them no good.
Neither would love, as they would probably say i am just a$$ kissing.
Something i have learned is: some people ya just can't work with.
To these repliers i give them stern correction in the same way they give me criticism. In all cases i do not see them showing signs of greater advancement than me, as they purport to be better than me, neither do i see any care for learning.
Just like jesus said to many in reproving tones and harsh words, these malefactors receive the same.
If they want love let them find God and then i will have tons of love for them until then, I will effort to whip them into shape. lol.
Hope you enjoyed your laughter and this special insight.
If you're that sensitive towards others' feelings, why asked provoking question, literally pointing to one's religion?
"Unfortunately, the only way for someone of different beliefs not to offend the religion is to keep their mouths tightly closed".
Wow!! I like that! Its seems you're referring to your own self. In other words,
"Hush! Speak silence if you've nothing good to say".
You start it all, Emile. Don't blame others for the sarcastic replies.
Such a restless soul like you need special counseling.
That's all I can say.
As usual, the religious resort to attempts at insult when people don't agree. Neither unexpected, or refreshing. Is there some special little class in Sunday school where they teach you this stuff? Your attempts to step on a high horse are as lame as your belief in hell. If you want to ride the high horse of the fundamentalist, you're going to have to conjure up a step ladder to attempt to reach the invisible stirrup. There's a few pentecostals here who might be willing to share their magic spells.
You really have nothing good to say, did you? Well, why not wait for the day to arrive? Your lame questions will definitely be answered
Not by your imaginary friend. That figure has been created by your ego.
Respect others beliefs and religions and you'll be respected too.
Good advice. Of course, you went on to say:
Maybe you need some revision to do.
Hush! Speak silence if you've nothing good to say
Such a restless soul like you need special counseling.
Wonderful examples of respect by the religious. You live by the adage 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you'. Don't you? I assumed this is your idea of respect. I'm simply giving back as you wish.
"Demon and Devils"
Wow!! These words do relate to you PERFECTLY! Isn't that awesome?
Well, good luck to you and have fun corrupting peoples' minds and feelings.
I'm outta here!
I think her opinion is a culminated assessment of many of your posts, which carry the same style. Is it a wonder you get the same back? Oh Christianity has a backbone does it, didn't expect that did ya?
I bet you thought that when you came in here, we were all just gonna fall down and play dead, show no passion and that life here was just gonna be easy.
more surprises later
I actually agree with that wonderful insight so well phrased, special counseling, isn't that your opinion of us?
Let me guess.
Self righteous rhetoric.
Mangling of the English language.
Calling someone ignorant or saying their incapable of understanding what you can.
The use of the word "ya"
Using 3 words of 3 or more syllables used in succession which don't make sense.
A possible smiley face.
Oh responding to your own posts.
And calling the bible brilliant.
well you got one right.
but just so you know.
What i said to emile about not responding applies to you also.
I'm not going to feed your little hatred rants. Its obvious to me where you are coming from.
have a nice day
Food for thought. Looking for Walden's posts are not hate filled rants. He/she appears to appeal to logic and reason. You may need to pull your dictionary out and check your ego because, once again, you've shown something is inhibiting your ability to follow simple conversations.
No BO I don't think Christians need special counseling. Well, maybe some. I do believe in a guiding spirit and several of the antagonistic Christian posters on this thread (feel free to use your imagination as to who they are) have apparently never felt it.
You asked about the footsteps of Christ. Learn to truly understand the meaning of love and how Christ shared it and you will understand. You all want to imagine yourselves as Christ but you use the image of his actions with the whip in the temple as your guiding vision. You are all filled with hatred first. Hatred for the sin in yourself and the sin in others.
You don't understand the sacrifice. I get that. I think it is too simple also, when viewed from our perspective. But, honestly? We all fall short of perfection. Christian and non believer alike. It's only the hope of Divine love that can save us all. We were commanded to follow in those footsteps. Love your fellow man as you do yourself. The rest, if God exists, is in his hands.
To think that an All-Knowing, All-Powerful Creator who created all things out of what-was-not and gave man dominion over all His creation on earth and made him subject to his own free will, to think that such an omnipotent God doesn't have the right to call every man to account for his deeds- to be rewarded or condemned, after He has given him everything, including rules,commandments, and ordinances regarding his stewardship and his relationships with his fellow man, to think that such an Awesome God would do unjustly, is in fact unthinkable. Some wish to disregard the story of Noah and the ark and the Flood.
There are two kinds of ignorance. God even says about His own: "My people perish for lack of knowledge." That's the first kind; "I didn't know. Nobody told me." The second kind is willful ignorance. i.e.:"Yeah, well, I heard that but I choose to ignore it." The people of Noah's day ignored his preaching, 'till God destroyed the then earth with a flood, preserving only eight persons. The present earth God's Word has reserved for fire. Now I don't particularly relish the idea of trampling on the ashes of any human being (except maybe one or two :-)). Nevertheless, "The wicked shall be ashes under the feet of the just." And "It is not God's will that any should perish but that all should come to the saving knowledge of His Son."
The Gospel is, by definition "good news'; but it's only good news to those who have ears to hear it.
Faith comes by hearing, when what is heard is the Word of God. And without faith it is impossible to please God for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him. Everything in your relationship (or lack of one) with God depends on your faith.
Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. He who does not believe shall be condemned." Believe it or not----- The choice is yours.
Just so we are all on the same page.
You do understand that Christianity is not the only religion that believes in God? You do understand it isn't the first, or last, that claims belief in the God of Abraham?
I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong. But, I am saying that I understand the choice is yours. What I don't understand is how anyone could wish hell on another human being. And that is exactly what those who believe in it do. It's a belief. We cannot prove beliefs to be anymore than wishful thinking. Why, in the world, would anyone build a belief system on something so heinous?
I'm not so sure that we will ever be on the same page, but that not withstanding, The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, is the only God of Prophecy. "Surely the LORD will do nothing without revealing it to His servants, the prophets." Since you brought up Abraham, also a prophet, you might have heard that when God was intending to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of their wickedness, He let Abraham know of His intentions. Abraham, (probably because of his concern for his nephew Lot) interceded with God, starting with "If there be a hundred..." down to "If there but ten righteous people in the city, certainly the Lord wouldn't destroy the righteous with the wicked." And The Lord replied, "If I find but ten righteous people, I will not destroy the city." You know the story: ten righteous people could not be found, And Lot and his wife and two daughters had to be dragged out of the city, with the instruction: "Keep going ,and don't look back!" I suppose you heard also that his wife was turned into a standing pillar of salt for looking back.
And take the nation of Israel for example, no other nation in the history of humanity has ever been so scattered and yet remained intact enough to return to it's homeland. For almost 2000 years, the land of Israel was a land without a people, and the Jews were a people without a land. But the God of Prophecy foretold that He would scatter them among the nations, and that in the last days He would bring them back, to fulfill His Promise to the Patriarchs, and some of those prophecies were written 1000 years before the coming of the Christ- the Messiah. It shows me that He is the same God --- Yesterday, Today and Forever.
Abraham believed God and it was counted unto him as righteousness, and he is called "father of many nations" not because of seeds that sprang from his loins, but because of the seed of faith that brought forth Isaac, the son of promise, and led him to place of sacrifice, where God , seeing his faith, spared Isaac, and declared "I will provide myself a sacrifice." Which He did in providing His Son, His Only One.
You know I could go on and on, but in closing I would have to disagree with your statement that Christianity isn't the last religion to claim belief in the God of Abraham. Christianity is the last religion-- period.
I'm not writing this to knock other religions, but only in defense of the Gospel. When Jesus said "...and upon this Rock I will build my Church. And the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.", He was speaking of the Rock of Revelation from the Father that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God. When Peter got this revelation, Jesus called him "blessed" because no mere man has revealed this to you, but My Father in heaven." And all true believers "get" this revelation. Which is why we can say, "I know that I know that I know that Jesus is real, He's alive, and He reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords, and that all authority in heaven and on earth has been given Him. "You shall know the Truth, and the Truth shall set you free." And FYI, it is written, "Because they did not love the truth, God sent them a strong delusion so that they would believe a lie." So I suppose that if I were under a strong delusion from God I might consider the just Judgements of God to be heinous as well.
I hope I didn't stir up a hornet's nest, but although Christians are harmless, this is spiritual warfare, and standing upon the Rock which is Christ, I shall not be moved.
First. I've read the story of Abraham. I like the guy and the moral I got, which I seriously doubt mirrors your interpretation.
Your comments on Jesus and hell are your opinion. Your interpretation. And you know what I think of that. I've read books, articles, posts here on Hub Pages by those who are quite learned in the Christian faith who disagree with you. People who claim to hang their hopes on Christianity.....and don't agree with you.
So, when someone arrogantly points to the fact that anyone who doesn't agree with them is delusional. I laugh. But, when they tell me God has taken it upon himself to make me delusional, I roll on the floor while I'm laughing. That's ludicrous, and I certainly hope you can find a moment when you can think rationally enough to see that.
Yes and that is a shame that no one can tell you otherwise or explain scripture to you and that you have all the answers that you need in your own right.
The delusion that God sends upon people goes like this.
When christians read the word of God the word is revealed to them. Now this can be refuted and i don't know how much time christians put into reading the word but believe me, ya gotta put in the hours.
So when someone reads the bible and draws from it what they want to draw from it, ignoring the deeper truths or actual real meanings or the actual christian point of the story or lining up history to see just whats going on in the background, they come out with a delusion.
The opposite is true for those who read the word and let the word teach them and then take time to verify that what they believe is true, that it lines up with scriptural teachings, context and doctrines.
Also when the word is being preached and people just shake their heads and walk away, God is not opening up the word to them because of their unbelief. Their unbelief being defined by previous truths that they just did not want to hear and shunned.
Some people ya can work with and some people you cannot work with.
And of course there are deeper situations of delusions that God sends or appoints. And method of transmission; he ignores, or stops, but this is the surface of the inquiry that you made in your rolling on the floor laughing kinda way.
Seriously. You need to get a life, but I appreciate you keeping us all in stitches in the interim.
Great so keep reading.
I am realizing that i may have to just stick to the milk of the word because anything deep goes right over your head and not surprisingly you just trample it like the good book says. Isn't that amazing!
It is rather a shame that posts are universal because what is a stumbling block and rock of offense to some people is a gem to others.
I just have to decide what is more important.
I feel like i'm teaching trigonometry to grade 7ers.
Saved people omitted from the above line.
Lest I cast my pearls before swine or give what is holy to dogs, I shall leave your company, with all due respect to all present, especially the Christians, and more especially those who have studied to show themselves approved, workmen who need not be ashamed. Yeah, the ones who put in the hours. Brotheryochanan I found you refreshing. Shalom!
Pearls before swine? You really just ignored everything in religion that didn't play to your ego. Ok by me. Fundamentalists are people too. You've got a right to your opinion. I won't call you swine because you have an opinion that doesn't mirror mine.
Calling me a dog was uncool though. You don't have to worry, you've proven you don't have anything holy to share
First of all, I called you neither called you a swine nor a dog, but if the shoe fits...(you decide). Second of all i would question your ability to recognize what is holy, since you seem to be rejecting the Author of Holiness. As far as "my ego" is concerned, that seems to have died when i was baptized. What may be bothering you is "my Father's Ego." Now I do have that and I'm guessing that you're just jealous because my Daddy can beat up Your daddy. Ha. Ha. Ha.
All the technology you use and take for granted was built on the backs of heretics.
This country, founded largely in part by heathens.
Don't even get me started on the infidel behind Apple.
You seem to enjoy the gifts from your stepdaddy (non evangelicals) just fine.
I'd be careful, I heard your dads the jealous type.
You might want to renounce your citezenship and give up technology.
And yes in your first post you implied the swine dog.
You were slightly more blatant in the second.
Doesn't seem christianlike to me but I don't judge.
I would say, you must be joking. But, sadly I doubt that.
Simply because you attempt to call me something doesn't mean I am that. Your implication degrades you, not me. And you make the mistake of assuming people reject 'The Author of Holiness' when it is your interpretation in question. You are not God, no matter how much you consider yourself to be channeling him. Don't feel alone in this foolishness. It appears to be a mistake made by many fundamentalists.
I wouldn't have the wake for your ego. Just yet. Your baptism appears to have placed it on steroids. That unnatural enlargement might have rendered it unidentifiable to you, but it's obvious to even the most casual of observers.
And if your daddy is in the habit of fighting, mine will pass. He's an adult who would roll his eyes at the childishness.
On a side note, the more discourse I have with fundamentalists; the more I understand why the Catholic church was so adamantly against it being translated into the common tongue. It's sad how far into the mud the uneducated fundamental interpretation has drug it.
If the catholics were correct about keeping the bible from the masses then jesus was wrong to preach to the masses and the prophets of the OT were wrong to speak to the masses and the masoretics were wrong to record their sayings for future generations and the NT writers were wrong for recording their experience for the masses...
Cmon... ya gotta think better than that.
I say you are wrong.
Your daddy might pass at fighting but what is the subject of the fight?
Is someone breaking into the house or won't let go of your eggo. lol. Lets face it that was a tailored response trimmed to fit a small scenario of possibility, but not true to a larger scenario, and such it is with all your answers, tailor made to fit your agenda.
If you don't understand something, then ask, instead of stomping some effectless doctrine of rebuttal all over it just because your ego wont allow you to admit you don't understand.
Good luck with this in the future.
I didn't say it was right. I said I understood why they feared allowing the uneducated the ability to interpret it for themselves. Heady stuff. Easily used to play to the ego. As evidenced by fundamentals, pentecostals, etc.
I realize his response was an attempt to tailor fit an insult. A poor one, yet it was an attempt. You are right; in that we should give him kudos for trying.
I freely admit my ego. I thought we'd been over this. But, even though I do have an ego I am able to understand that interpretation of the Bible is simply that. My ego does not push me past the point of reasonable acceptance of reality as yours, and apparently your little friend's, does.
And, I do ask questions. I simply don't think it would be polite to pretend a nonsensical attempt at an answer is acceptable. I didn't treat his unspiritual and low brow attempt at theology any differently than I do yours. You don't get mad when I roll my eyes at your crazy religion. What's his problem?
Your ego makes you write statements like this:
"It's sad how far into the mud the uneducated fundamental interpretation has drug it".
And you offer this opinion based on what? your interpretation? When you clearly have no interpretation.
If not for those mudders we all might have the opinion you and others have. Clearly these mudders have ushered people into Gods kingdom and shown others the way and perpetuated this great spiritual Way through out centuries, as God intended.
Yes they are a feisty bunch.
Kinda shows me what Jesus went through with the stubborn jewish nation.
Keep working bro.
All things for His honor and glory (even if the swine don't recognize the pearls)
Yes, Jesus did have to suffer the opposition of sinners; and you're right there does seem to be all kinds in this Areopagus (Athens). Amen to all things for His honor and glory. And speaking of honor, I am honored both in you calling me brother and in your defense of my position, and although I hardly feel worthy of such respect, I am comforted, yes, and thankful that even in a place like this, a little no-account like myself can find encouragement. Christ's Peace brother
So sorry, after I overcame my gag reflex I couldn't help but chuckle. Opposition to sinners? The delusions of grandeur do run deep with you guys. I don't think this is quite what they meant when the coined the phrase 'in the footsteps of Christ'.
You are welcome
I look forward to reading more of your christian perception.
We need to distinguish what the bible records and what the bible approves of.
The bible records Davids situation with Bathsheba but it does not approve of that.
The bible records the rape of a woman and then her being chopped into twelve pieces and then sent to off via mail but the bible does not approve of that.
The bible records wars and allows wars but doesn't approve of war as a remedy to any situation.
The bible records Israel dealing unfairly in weights and measures but the bible does not approve of that.
There are no places in biblical records of God ever approving of torture, murder, hate, money interest, covetness (greed) etc. etc.
We can look at the book of joshua where God tells his people to totally destroy the canaanites and six other nations. Deuteronomy 7 and the amalekite destruction. We remember pharoahs first born killed and the flood.
But in each of these situations and more, indeed all the rest, God is totally vindicated. How? you ask. In each scenario God is either paying back or getting rid of evil and this shows, that because God is who God is, his nature being holy that he will always judge evil and evil doers.
When nations who are accustomed to war, go to war, they seek total obliteration as well, albeit, different reasons, greed, power or just blood lust. Also if some remained alive would they just regroup, wait a hundred years building themselves up in numbers again and start the whole ball rolling.
Pharoah was killing babies as they were being born, first born, second born and any born, but I guess that is okay because God is not doing it.
What i really dislike about this attitude of interpreting the bible as being heinous, cruel and the work of a psychotic God is that it is completely and utterly a delusional view.
We see that God did not play favorites, even though he had a people when they were sinful they were punished and died. Is God to be more lenient on those nations who seek to destroy his people? Is the serial killer who killed the next door neighbors baby doing okay in your sight because he skipped over yours? Or does that serial killer have amnesty because he is a relative?
In every situation, God allows time even for other nations to repent. Jonah and ninevah. Outside Jericho. Noah preached repentance for 120 yrs and he preached coming judgment. The list goes on.
Then God comes to earth, poos his diapers and grows to a man to preach the inward meaning of truth, honesty and obedience to God and dies on a cross; and nobody understands that no greater love can anyone have than to lay down his life for his friends.
To say the bible is heinous is just plain insensitivity.
I believe, if God exists, he will forgive even the fundamentalist for their arrogant and audacious posturing. If he can forgive that, I know he can forgive anything.
Yea, if god exist, he is saying to Jesus, are you happy with the mess you've made!
Now don't try to get to angry you two.
Part of the reason you are in the pickle you are in is because your mind is not open and little snippets of conflagration just add to your private delusions.
But God will indeed forgive and this proves my point that God is love.
I love how you grab the little snippets that irritated you and attempt to turn them on others. Delusional is a fun word to bandy about. I admit. But you apparently don't understand its definition.
I think, if I suggested we take up a collection to buy you a real one I'd get plenty of contributions. Your poor understanding of the simplest words is becoming tedious.
Your God is a murderous monster not worthy of praise, obedience or love. He deserves to be destroyed for that one act alone.
The choice is easy, Jesus needs to be destroyed in order for mankind to survive.
You know all that bad stuff that we should just not do anything about.
its a certain colloquialism about a prejudice point of view that certain wrong know it all often uses.
More dishonesty. Notice that the believer is not unable to tell the truth but refuses to tell the truth.
When you say that i am being dishonest you should remember that other people are reading what you are reading, both my posts and yours.
Therefore i am more than confident that you are being revealed to be exactly what you are all about and I am being revealed to be what i am all about and that those two perceptions are no where close to each other.
Keep being the best gem you can be.
have a nice day
Yep. We read them. We get you both. He's quite a bit ahead in the integrity column.
Yes, we can all see what you're all about.
So if I believe in the nuclear bomb that means I'm in favor of people dying from one's explosion? That doesn't jibe well, Emile.
I guess that might be the same thing. We know nuclear bombs are real, but bombs don't kill people all on their own. It takes a human decision to put the bomb in place and set it off. You have to have the desire to kill to do that.
Humans kill people in the real world. Why would a human want to kill another in the spiritual world?
If a Christian, or anyone else, wishes on you eternal damnation then you're right, they need correction. That does not make Hell unreal, unfortunately.
lonestar is right that God doesn't want to give them, pardon the silly term, hell, but if we use hell as a metaphor for separation from God that works for me, albeit, a permanent separation - second death.
Its kind of like God set people to live on the planet, and cities were formed, now because people do bad things jails were made. Do judges want to send people to jail. Not really (just guessing and being nice here), but they do send people to jail, because in some way these people who are going to jail have forfeited their right to live in society for a while.
Jails were made because people do bad things.
Separation from God exists because people do things that God considers bad <-- don't like that term - considers unworthy of permanent communion.
A lot of the complicated stuff that seems to border on mysticism or some - and this is laughable - secret knowledge - just muddles the simplicity that is in God, who wants all to be saved and yet some think God has made himself unknowable and has secret knowledge.
I believe in hell because there has to be an opposite of heaven. There are always 2 opposites in everything. The bad people need to go somewhere. Evil does exist, so hell should exist. Love/Good exist so heaven should exist. If they don't then what is the point of it all?
Life in itself is too complex not to have a point. There are stages of enlightenment. Stages of evolution. Stages of evolvement in human beings physically and spiritually.
Ok then. Please name and describe these stages of enlightenment.
I don't have names for the stages. I'm not a religious fanatic. Just know not all human beings aren't on the same level spiritually. An example would be the Dalahi Lama being at a different stage then Jeffrey Dahmer.
Then describe the stages. You're the one who said there were stages of enlightenment. This is news to me.
I think you are full of crap,and you're making up crap as you go along. Trying to sound like you know what you're talking about. Trying to sound wise.
I'm reporting you for abuse and personal attacking.
You have devastated me beyong what I can handle.
it was unwarranted.
I don't mind giving back what is given but there was no reason for that bit of nastiness.
it would have been much easier to google
I do not believe it is real. I watched a documentary on the History Channel that told about how different versions of the Bible have been translated differently. One biblical scholar said that "hell" was more than likely something that was taught by the Roman Catholic church during the middle ages to make people go to church. I didn't take his word for it, but I prayed that God would show me the truth. Two days later, a Jehovah's Witness dropped of a pamphlet that had my answer! Amazing, huh? http://tiny.cc/x4ajp
Why do I believe in hell? It's too expensive to get divorced.
As God gives each of us a soul, a concience and unconditional love . God will also give us our own personal hell to endure Here on Earth and also in our after death. We choose. As we have been given free will here on earth and that choice will be the one that we remain with us. Fire and brimstone I am unsure of but I feel sure It could be as lovely as what I have seen in out of bodies and also could be hellish if that is what a person holds deep in their soul. Man has re written the bible with his own selfish desires of control and attempt at manipulating God and Gods word. The end of the vessel here and the start of the spiritual soul will be the untold story. However there is true guidence from the Bible. Gods word is short and sweet ( ten commandments) Stories that are true are hard to decipher on a clear note ... but I for one believe many of them .... as they are in almost all countries and all recorded data dated back before Jesus's birth. My firm belief is that God is good and does supply us with all needed knowlege .... through unconditional love and main concepts to help man in his every day.... We are in Gods image... for God sakes
It's confusing as to why anybody can even ask this question honestly. Humans have no justification for saying a hell exists. Furthermore, no religion, hell or not, has any basis in claiming that its supernatural aspects are true. They all must automatically assume that their doctrine and dogma is true. Anybody that does this is spitting in the face of critical thinking.
That would depend on how one views hell. There are many interpretations of what hell is. This thread illustrates my point well.
I am wondering though how you have arrived at supernatural?
There are many interpretations about what jesus is like. But how does the bible portray Jesus is what is important.
There are many interpretations about hell. But what does the bible say about hell.
critical thinking is always informed by the evidence. The only evidence needed is christian evidence found in the bible.
if you believe in heaven you need believe en hell.... but for me hell is now .the works , rents, days and nights. the heaven is for relaxation for later.
I believe in hell and heaven because I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and that everything in it is true.
well, we have to have eternal life to go to heaven...... I know that god's comming back very sooooon!
please pray for lauren scruggs... She got hit by the perpeller outside of a small plane. She is in bad condetion and lost her left arm and mayebe her eye. lets hope that god will work or make a really good testimony....
Yes, I do belevie that there is a hell. That is were satin is going to be defeated ....
lookingforwalden, what happens when you find Walden? Will you change your name?
Didn't you know "walden" is just like "G/god".
Yeah I know it's there I just gotta prove it to everyone.
Seriously though I think I might be going back there this month. I'll take some pictures. I'll show some people what real proof looks like
Walden is actually just like a P/pond
And a good book by a good man.
The father of civil disobiedience and environmentalism.
Oh okay. Not that I care, but thank you for the info.
Np it just shocks me when people don't know who Thoreau is.
He is a big deal in the schools where I live. (super liberal blue state)
I have "The Portable Thoreau"
Again, hell only exists in the mind still acute to the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Mr Yochanan mentioned the anointing. And this is correct.
The mind now in the anointing -meaning original covering Adam had, the seal of Creator, the sphere of love, what-have-you- is no longer concerned about that knowledge. They are no longer concerned about sin -because the knowledge of good-evil is sinful; no longer concerned about the Law -because the law was sinful, weak, and useless to achieve righteousness; no longer concerned with the 'earthly' matters. They are -in actuality- concerned with the righteousness that only comes by exercising faith. -not by texts -not by gifts -not by works -not by law, lest any man boast in his own achievement of righteousness and greatness/glory.
Hell is the madness that comes from: the Knowledge of Good-Evil. A knowledge that results(ed) in death. It may have taken nearly one thousand years, but it killed Adam --and every human being since. Heaven, is now in you, to live eternally -body, brain and spirit. This is the Knowledge of The Spirit, the Knowledge of G-d, The Understanding, the true expression of being His glory, being el`ohim.
Simple really. This is the entire front to back purpose of the Work. Tell me it isn't, and I will gladly burn each page you have so lawfully memorized. Because each page is chaff.
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