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Onward Christian Soldiers?

  1. Paraglider profile image95
    Paragliderposted 5 years ago

    One or two respondents on one of my hubs objected to my statement that all the familiar moral codes state that it is wrong to kill. They pointed out that the fifth Mosaic commandment is correctly translated "You shall not murder", not "You shall not kill". Of course I was well aware of that. But I find it odd that Christians should prefer to fall back on Mosaic law when Christ himself reportedly said "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets". That directive from the founder of Christianity clearly outlaws military killing, unless we are to believe that soldiers go into battle wishing to be killed. I therefore have no time whatsoever for the sophistry that continues to justify militarism.

    Anyone?

    1. manlypoetryman profile image77
      manlypoetrymanposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I would venture a guess that most that subscribe to this particular statement you raise are "zealots"...with more passion then logical sense. I hope they explained their reason for answering your statement in such a manner. Christ came to abolish the old...and bring forth the new. That can not be deabated by strong believers in Christ. It is as true as any Mosiac Law. Also, Christ's parables...where you should not worry for anything...which ultimately means God is in charge. God will do what he says...when he says he will...how he says it. Though...I am sure passionate enthusiam for Christ is understandable...However, Christians are still to remain the "light" to the World...that Christ called upon.

      In other words...slow your horses...when rushing to make statements. Does your position help to show the love of Christ in what you say? No one is perfect by any means...everyone down deep...wants to defend our God, and also our Savior, Christ...(myself included)...but in the end run...we must ask ourselves...if the message we just sent out...is a good one? Does what we say...aid the body of Christ...here on the planet...and those that would be a part of it.

      Case in point...Do you feel that every televangilists has furthered the message of Christ in a good way? I don't think anyone can say "yes"...all though many a televangilists was just given it all he/she had...in passion for Christ?

      In this Christmas season...Any and All Christians...remember why the Christ child was born to the World...Go forth with a message of Peace and Love...and even if you be as human (myself included) as the next person...don't forget the pin-point messages of Christ...and bring forth his light to a World. A World that just does'nt quite get him...and a World that does!

      Merry Christmas to Everyone...and a Very Blessed New Year!

    2. Cassie Smith profile image69
      Cassie Smithposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus is not the founder of Christianity, he was a jew.

      Your argument seems to be a case of sophistry itself.  What christians are you referring to that justifies militarism?

      1. Paraglider profile image95
        Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Of course, but I'm sure you understood me. I'm happy to call him the inspiration for Christianity, or the well-head, if you like.
        The ones that do. I'm not going to name names. If you think there are no such people, just ignore the assertion.

        1. Cassie Smith profile image69
          Cassie Smithposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Well that sounds a little like people who think jews control the world.  They won't name names but there's people who believe it.  I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is.  If there was one.

          1. Paraglider profile image95
            Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Nope, Jews don't control the world. Nobody is in absolute control, but big banking and big corporations are making a serious bid for it.

            The point of the thread was to examine inconsistencies between stated beliefs and de facto beliefs particularly in the field of military adventurism as practised and advocated by some who also profess to follow Christ's teachings. In the public arena, Bush and Blair are obvious candidates, but even in this thread, Onusonus (who was not in any way the subject of the thread) appears to follow suit.

            At least it's a more interesting thread than:
            God exists /no he doesn't /yes he does /etc wink

            1. Cassie Smith profile image69
              Cassie Smithposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Oh well yes, you will certainly find a divergence of view points among individual Christians and the Christian world itself.  These view points caused schisms so that there are various sects of Christianity.  And I'm not only talking about Protestants, Catholics, and Orthodox.  There's also ancient subsects like the Nestorians, Copts, etc.  Individuals can always find something in the Bible to support anything but that doesn't necessarily agree with the teaching of the Christian authority of whatever sect.

              Also, if you are looking at public figures such as Blair and Bush, you should keep in mind that as public figures, they may have expressed their beliefs but the bottom line is that any government decision making cannot be dominated by their private beliefs.  Bush's decision to go into war against the Taliban in Afghanistan and what was thought to be a threat in Iraq was left over from the Cold War of mutually assured destruction.  You build up a strong army so that the communist opponent wouldn't even think to send anything your way.  However, times change and this strategy was not appropriate when it came to Islamic terrorists.

              1. Paraglider profile image95
                Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                Iraq was not a country of Islamic terrorists before the allied invasion. But we've successfully fostered the terrorist mindset by our intervention. And we're doing the same in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

                1. Cassie Smith profile image69
                  Cassie Smithposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  No, it was not a country of Islamic terrorists but it did have one dictator that did threaten the US and kept us guessing as to whether he had nukes, and was tolerant of the presence of Al Qaeda in his country.   Bush made the decision to attack and finish the job that his father aborted.  As for the terrorist mindset being fostered, it was done long before that and it will probably continue.  The Muslim Middle East are failed countries that aren't able to build democracies and economic futures for their citizens.  They've often used the US as a scapegoat for their failures and with the way things are going on over there, it will continue.  As always it will be their people that are suffering and continue to suffer.

                  1. Paraglider profile image95
                    Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    I think maybe you have never lived in the Middle East? Your impressions seem to be stereotypes gleaned from American media. You might not have noticed yet, but the US (and most of Europe) has degenerated to oligarchy and is no more democratic than medieval France. Try voting out big oil or big banking and see how you get on.

    3. JBBlack profile image60
      JBBlackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      I kind of have the feeling that this tendency to support militarism has to do with a sort of contextualization in the old testament, as well as fulfillment of end time prophecy.  If you read the Bible from cover to cover, there is a great deal about war before there is a great deal about peace.  But when you get to the end again and start looking at bits about the resoration of Jerusalem and the final Battle between Jesus and Satan, if you interpret this sort of thing to be literal, once again things start to seem oriented towards physical conflict.  Excuse my limited knowledge and slight inaccuraices in detail please, if any.

      1. Paraglider profile image95
        Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I agree with you. I think it is a great shame that the Book of Revelation was ever included in the Bible. It comes across as the demented ramblings of a bitter old man.

    4. Hollie Thomas profile image62
      Hollie Thomasposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Well, Paraglider, as an atheist it's difficult for me to understand the difference between "Murder and Kill" Giving the benefit of the doubt, I would imagine that the distinction is between deliberately taking another's life and finding oneself in a situation where it is necessary to take another's life in order to protect one's own life: Self defense??

      It must be awful to live in the US, and feel that everyday you need to be armed, because your life is at risk. Doesn't sound like a free, great or wonderful nation to live in!

      As for the young men and women who, in my opinion, go off to war to protect "Us" I feel that this is very sad and misguided. They do not protect "us" they are inadvertently helping an elitist group rape other nations of their natural resources and sovereignty. I know, I  will be slammed for this viewpoint. But, I'm trying to cast my mind back to when the so called "enemy" were ever really a threat to us. Let me see, can't remember a time  when this was "truly" the case. No to militarism. Let the likes of Bush, Blair et.al, send their own children off to war.

      1. Paraglider profile image95
        Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        I've never lived in US but have worked there quite a lot over the years. It's not such a bad place, but far less diverse culturally than Europe (generally). And what passes for politics is hopelessly bipolar. Too many people believe their own myths, at least that's what I see. Certainly, the streets are far safer in the Middle East!

        1. paradigmsearch profile image94
          paradigmsearchposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          x

          1. paradigmsearch profile image94
            paradigmsearchposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            agreed.

            1. paradigmsearch profile image94
              paradigmsearchposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              But no on m.e.

    5. profile image61
      paarsurreyposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      A true Christian would never be offensive; yes he could defend.

  2. Jerami profile image73
    Jeramiposted 5 years ago

    97Paraglider Good Morning
      "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets".

      ============

       Good morning Paraglider

      sipping on my first cut of coffee  "Yawn" 
    Translation of 4000 year old words ??

      If someone came into my house (especially at night uninvited) intending to do bodily harm to a wife and/or children, they will certainly be shot. 
    AS I would suppose would happen to me if I were to do the same.

      If my neighbor is raising poisonus snakes and they are getting out of their boxes and coming to my house; I would go to my neighbor and protest. When he does not correct the problem, I might enter into his property and fix the problem myself.

      I would expect him to do the same. 
     
      Sometimes the thin line between right and wrong isn't thin at all.
      I have heard, Good fences between neighbors MAKE good neighbors.
    However, we can build a fence so tall that it falls and someone gets crushed.
       
       Maybe I should wake up some more before commenting.

  3. Paraglider profile image95
    Paragliderposted 5 years ago

    Jerami - both the scenarios you cite constitute self defence. I'm more concerned with military adventurism as advocated by a surprising number of religious folk.

    And with the idea that it's OK to fall back on Moses as exemplar when Jesus is just too difficult (or wrong? Is that what we're saying?)

    1. Jerami profile image73
      Jeramiposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Had to leave earlier and will have to do it again ,, just checking in for a few.

        I was actually visualizing my two scenarios in a larger picture, rather than a personal one.
         Unfortunately, many times, nations streatch the truth a bit in order to gain popular public opinion to their agressive behaveior.

         The good guys and bad guys all wear white hats, unlike in the old western movies when we could know the bad guys cause they wore black hats.

         Sorry ...  gotta goe out some more

  4. Druid Dude profile image60
    Druid Dudeposted 5 years ago

    One man's kill is another man's murder.

  5. Paraglider profile image95
    Paragliderposted 5 years ago

    The problem I was having was in persuading some people that they can't have it all ways. You can't claim that Jesus was always right AND it is sometimes right to disobey his teachings. You can't UNLESS you are prepared to admit moral relativism or situational ethics into the equation (which I was advocating). But that is anathema to the absolutists who insist there are absolute standards of good and evil.

    And Merry Christmas to all from me too smile

    1. aka-dj profile image76
      aka-djposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Thanks. I'll take that.

      I did my seasons greetings under the topic "Christmas", perhaps you saw it.

      But, I repeat it back at you.
      Be blessed this Christmas season! smile


      PS, very thought provoking thread!

      1. Paraglider profile image95
        Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Thank you - have a good one. I go home on Christmas Eve to spend a few weeks with family and friends in UK, before coming back out to the desert for another year or so.

  6. Onusonus profile image81
    Onusonusposted 5 years ago

    I think that a Christian person definitely should not join the military with the intent to kill people but rather to defend our liberty and the liberty of our allies. That's what I like about the American military, they usually don't fight unless someone else is the aggressor.

    1. Paraglider profile image95
      Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Iraq being a major exception, of course!

      1. Onusonus profile image81
        Onusonusposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Well say what you will about Iraq, but I think it is debatable. It definitely wasn't a conquest, we didn't get any oil from them. Everybody said that a maniac dictator had WMD's.

        1. Paraglider profile image95
          Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Not a conquest? Regime change, execution of leader, 100,000 Iraqi deaths.
          (But no WMDs - just hot air)

          1. Onusonus profile image81
            Onusonusposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Yeah conquest. no Subjugation, no plundering, no mass migrations, no forced culture changes. We removed the evil dictator, stabilized the government, and now we are packing up our stuff and leaving,(a little prematurely if you ask me).

            1. Paraglider profile image95
              Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              Lots of lucrative contracts to rebuild the infrastructure, but of course,  no plundering...
              No mass migrations, just thousands rendered homeless, penniless, maimed or dead.
              But thank you for demonstrating to Cassie Smith (above) that Christians who support militarism are not a figment of my imagination wink

              1. pisean282311 profile image60
                pisean282311posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                @paraglider u r right man...those who use any kind of force under any reason are not following christ in principal...Christ didnt use force even to protect himself forget rest....The use of force in any name is mostly for political reasons and can be linked with broader theory and must not be seen from narrow prism of religion....

                1. Paraglider profile image95
                  Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Hi pisean - personally, I'm a pragmatist in such matters. I think that sometimes force is justified (though not nearly as often as it is used). But I am not religious in any way and I support situational ethics. I worry about those who claim to know absolute right and wrong, especially when they back up their 'knowledge' by highly selective scripture.

                2. manlypoetryman profile image77
                  manlypoetrymanposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  "Christ didnt use force even to protect himself" is the perfect example of Peace.

                  1. prettydarkhorse profile image65
                    prettydarkhorseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                    Manly, good to see you again here...Your team (Houston Texans) is rolling, mine lost last night..

            2. Hollie Thomas profile image62
              Hollie Thomasposted 5 years agoin reply to this

              As a Christian, can you not mourn the deaths of the Iraqi people and say that the war was wrong? Can you not mourn the death of US/UK soldiers and say that the war was wrong? I know from reading your previous posts that you are a college graduate. Looking back, were the lives of all those people, worth it for a "Maniac dictator?"  Or, do some Christians believe that some lives are worth more than others?

  7. prettydarkhorse profile image65
    prettydarkhorseposted 5 years ago

    Hi Dave... I think almost all culture value life, but to the effect that some people think that to sacrifice their life - to kill for others sake is the highest form of value, and to be killed is an honor in whatever value they upheld. - Personally I don't understand that, but who is to say a culture is wrong in believing that way? People indulge war for various reasons, mostly economic, also in defense if somebody attack them, sometimes in offense too.

    1. Paraglider profile image95
      Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Maita - Merry Christmas smile

      There is too much pro-war rhetoric flying about in the public domain. War is always a failure of diplomacy. Sometimes though, it is a deliberate failure engineered by vested interests in conflict.

      1. prettydarkhorse profile image65
        prettydarkhorseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Merry Christmas too! Thanks....Are you going home to UK????? or you are stuck there in Middle East? Post those pics again like LAST YEAR, SNOW PICS if you go home...

  8. prettydarkhorse profile image65
    prettydarkhorseposted 5 years ago

    sorry, I think we ambushed this thread already.....

    1. manlypoetryman profile image77
      manlypoetrymanposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Hmmm...probably...Sorry, PG...and others that have inputted.

    2. Paraglider profile image95
      Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Anything you do is fine with me smile

      Yes, I'm going home on Christmas Eve for 3 weeks. The snow hasn't arrived yet, but there will probably be some while I'm there.

      1. prettydarkhorse profile image65
        prettydarkhorseposted 5 years agoin reply to this

        Thanks and enjoy your vacation....Don't forget to get pics.. it is getting foggy here and raining but no snow at the moment...

  9. paradigmsearch profile image94
    paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

    Not my topic.!

    Not my op!

    I will let it be, not my problem.

  10. paradigmsearch profile image94
    paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

    Oh, my!

  11. paradigmsearch profile image94
    paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

    Kinda next be

  12. paradigmsearch profile image94
    paradigmsearchposted 5 years ago

    Closed. big_smile

    1. Paraglider profile image95
      Paragliderposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Nice to see someone happy smile

 
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