In 2012 let us have peace on the religious forums. Christians, atheists and agnostics etc are all part of mankind. Let us all be kind towards each other and respect each others views.
Hope all hubbers have the best year ever.
Thanks, I hope you have a good year too but I dont respect beliefs just because people believe them.
If we all did that the KKK would still exist unnopposed.
That is a good point. Perhaps it should be said that we can respect the rights of others to have beliefs which do not cause harm to anyone.
Ohh there goes Christianity:
" When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are." (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
and Islam - stoning and punishment for apostacy......
The rules in the book of Exodus were established a few thousand years before Christianity. The whole point of the New Covenant proclaimed by our Saviour, Jesus Christ, was to replace all the myriad little laws in the Torah with one, universal law, which is that we must love the Lord our God with all our heart and love other people to the same extent as we love ourselves. He was put to death for advocating a way of thinking and living that all reasonable people - of whatever religion - must surely believe has to be the right one. Remember that Jesus refused to condemn the woman taken in adultery, and - if what is commonly understood is true - had a reformed prostitute as a close companion. There is no way that He would have wanted any woman sold as a slave.
So we should ignore all of the parts of the Bible that aren't the teachings of Jesus?
No. I was responding to your opening statement: "Ohh, there goes Christianity". Whatever is in the Torah, it was promulgated literally thousands of years before the birth of Christ, whowho gave His name to Christianity. I cannot answer for what other religions may consider appropriate.
Oh dear , I can see where this is going. I certainly don't suppoort the beliefs of the KKK but most mainstream religions are not so extreme.
Happy New Year to all.
Excellent point, @JwaH!
I saw a recent video on YouTube by the PrisonPlanet.com guy showing the super-rich (1% gang) wearing KKK-like robes, having an occultish celebration which gives me chills.
Another video shows Aaron Russo talking about Nick Rockefeller and the plan of some of his super-rich buddies to implant us all with microchips without which we won't be able to perform any commerce (buy groceries, gas, etc). Their plan is to whittle down the world population to 550million -- a nice manageable number. That makes the KKK look like wimps. Most of the Rockefeller plans have already happened. They just need to tie up a few loose ends and most of us are dead meat.
Interesting that Revelations talks about some of this stuff. The microchip sounds like the "mark of the beast" without which no one will be able to do any commerce. Brought to you by the same guys who gave us 9/11, Iraq's WMD's, and double and triple billing by Iraq-war contractors. Ah, money! If you don't have lots of it, you're "little people."
So, my atheist, agnostic and spiritual friends. We're all in this boat together. And it looks like we're in for a bumpy ride. Already, free speech is being threatened. Government control of the internet is being discussed. The Patriot Act is an excuse to surveil and arrest anyone who disagrees.
Perhaps the Soviet Union was merely an experiment by the super-rich to try out the tactics they plan to use on us. George Orwell may have been right.
Big Brother is here and he knows what you're doing (or soon will). At least the German Jews could flee to England or America when Hitler came to power. Where do you go when America becomes the United Socialist States of America?
@Jesus was a hippy, I hope you have a good New Year! I don't know when the "bumpy ride" will begin, but I hope you survive it. I hope we all do.
Pahahaha Jesus, the way you destroy creationist arguments so rapidly and eloquently is truly admirable.
I believe in being kind. Sounds good to me. I hope you have a great year as well.
Thanks. You too.
I love atheists. I don't have a problem with them.
It's their beliefs! (Which they don't admit to having, BTW)
Christians would have to stop being Christians for that to happen.
Made a mistake, I meant that is not true. Sorry
Really, @A Troubled Man?
I've had some good conversations with atheists and agnostics. One of my brothers used to be an atheist, too.
So, looks like there's a hole in your hypothesis.
Perhaps the real problem is one of ego. Some believers can be pretty belligerent in their discussions. But you've been guilty of the same tactics. Tsk, tsk!
Now, do you say what you do because you are bigoted? Are you saying that no matter how kind or cordial a Christian is you would never be a friend or compassionate?
Hmmm-m-m! That is troubling indeed.
I have many religious friends. I even admire some of them who are extraordinarily wonderful people. They attribute that yo their religious belief, I see it as innate to their own personality.
I still will not respect their beliefs. Belief in nonsense is simply that and always will be.
I'm not going to respect your views.
I respect your right to have them. I will stand with you to fight anyone who says you cannot have and practice your religion. As disgusting as I think it is, I will also defend your right to brainwash your children with your beliefs.
That's all you get. Anytime you mention your silly beliefs, I will point out how foolish they are.
But I have never mentioned my beliefs on the forums.
Then how can you complain that they were not respected?
Oh, I LOVE the illogic of the religious!
I didn't complain that my views were not respected. You seem determined to be aggressive and quarrelsome.
I was merely suggesting that people like yourself show some goodwill to all.
No, you specifically said
"Let us all be kind towards each other and respect each others views. "
I explained that I can't ever respect religious views and then YOU became quarrelsome.
Rather typical, in my opinion. When the religious say "respect", they really mean "Don't say anything about our silly fantasies".
You know nothing about my beliefs, yet you descibe them as silly. Hubbers have been banned from the forums for such comments. Being the season of goodwill, I will let you off. Unlike you I don't force my beliefs or lack of beliefs on anyone.
You really should address your problems and attend anger management classes.
If you think that you can have me banned for stating the obvious fact that atheists think religious views are silly, please do so.
That's my problem with this whole ridiculous idea of "respect". To an atheist, the concept of a "god" is no different than my telling you that an invisible antenna is sprouting from the top of your head. You can look in the mirror and see that it is not true, you are rationally aware that antennae cannot grow out of people's heads, yet there I am insisting it must be true.
Fine, you think, he's a bit of a nutter but otherwise he seems fine. You'll just try to ignore me - live and let live. But then I stand up and start yelling that you aren't being "respectful" of my views and that I could have you banned for saying that antennae growing out of heads is completely ridiculous!
Yeah, right. You'd be real happy about that, I bet.
Please seriously consider the anger management classes. If you read back on your comments you may notice you made a personal attack on me by describing my views as silly, it wasn't a general comment. Bizzarre when you don't even know what they are. You really need to grow up and show some restraint.
I'm 64 years old - I don't need to "grow up".
I have no anger toward religion or even most religious belief. The only time I get angry is when religion is used as a pretext to attack others or restrict their rights - e.g. laws against homosexual marriage and the like.
Describing religious belief as "silly" is not "anger" nor is it a personal attack no matter how much you think it should be.
I fear you are right if you haven't grown up by the age of 64 there is little hope for you. You seem reluctant to recall that you described my views as silly and not as you suggest religious beliefs. I never mentioned whether I had any religious belief. You are, I am afraid, a man out of control.
That's a very hurtful comment Seanorjohn, you've shamed Jesus.
It may well be a hurtful comment but it is the truth. Also, I have never invoked Jesus. I may be an atheist. I did not state my beliefs. If you read the opening post,I merely said we should be civil to one another.
Pcunix has a problem. He should address this.He needs help.
Rediculous. I never mentioned Jesus.. I am not even talking about religion. Be nice. Be good.
So as long as you think something is true, you should enforce your opinion on those you think don't know this already?
That's funny? Because you just made a forum about how Christians and Atheists should get along and respect each others views?
You told Pcunix "there is little hope for you" because you thought he didn't know this already and you are trying to teach him the truth.
Or you thought he already knew this and you thought you'd hurt him with a hurtful comment, which happens, by your opinion, to be the truth
Neither of which comply with your opening that preaches respect for each others beliefs
I never mentioned Jesus in the context of religion, I may be called Jesus, I may have a friend called Jesus, all that I let you know is, whoever you take him to be, you have shamed him with your hurtful comment.
Bringing in religion at the name Jesus is a bit prejudiced :S
When I hear the name Noah I do not assume it is the man who built the arc capable of feeding thousands of animals
Please don't assume I am confused, I think you aren't respecting my beliefs in saying so.
If you want me to not tell creationists that they are confused about their beliefs, the least you can do is allow me the same :S
Denouncing my beliefs as confusion is not peaceful
Am I not part of "all"?
NOW MY BELIEFS ARE CONFUSING AND WEIRD!?
WHERE DOES THE MADNESS STOP!
The point is, why do you feel it is necessary to say that what somebody else believes is silly? Why is it not possible for you simply to accept that he believes something in which you yourself do not believe without seeking to belittle him for doing so? Some of the worst and most horrific atrocities in world history have been caused by the fact that people believing one thing feel that it is so impossible to tolerate any other view that those believing in anything else must be tortured or put to death. And this doesn't just apply to people who believe in the Christian God, although, Heaven only knows, they have behaved appallingly. In Northern Ireland, for years a horrendous war has been waged by people who claim to believe in the same God, but who claim to worship Him in different ways. History has proved that It can be only a small, but momentous, step from disagreeing with someone whose views you cannot respect to fighting with him to establish that you are right and he is wrong. What seanorhohn is advocating is that we all try to coexist without fighting about our different believes. Is that so difficult to do?
"tortured or put to death" why must you call these actions as "most horrific atrocities", why can't you just accept other people's beliefs without belittling them with negative adjectives?
If I understand your comment correctly, you are effectively supporting those who torture and/or put to death those who disagree with them. That is frankly a bit worrying!
Why is it worrying? You have to respect my beliefs like I respect yours?
If I am expected to not worry about a book that promotes selling your daughter as a sex slave, murder, rape and torture, then surely you must respect any of my beliefs? :S
Respect each others views? Let's respect the view that slavery and selling your own daughter as a sex slave is okay? (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)
"However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you."(Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)
Murder is fine too as long as it is justified by it being against people not listening to priests.
"Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)"
Out of curiosity does anyone, religious or otherwise, advocate the reenstatement of Mosaic law? I'm not sure I understand how that is pertinent when a guy simply says let's play nice. Unless he's asked if he can buy your daughter. If so, my bad.
So are we to allow parts of the Bible to be neglected when we see fit?
But God wrote the Bible, God's not going to be happy about this
You and I both know a god didn't write the Bible. And yes, for goodness sake, I want them to ignore the crazy parts.
But Emile R! I believe that God wrote the Bible because I had a feeling that God was inside me and told me!
I also believe in the crazy parts because everything in the Bible definitely happened! The feeling inside of me told me that!
Can't you respect my beliefs :'(
Also, are you interested in purchasing my daughter?
I would like to sell her before the January sales start..
God didn't write the Bible. It was written by men, albeit that the Torah derives from holy laws laid down by God and preserved by oral tradition in the first place. The point I have now made three times is that you are confusing the Old Testament with the New Testament, in which Jesus Christ set out his new Covenant to replace the old. Christianity has a wholly different outlook to life to that displayed by the writers of Exodus and the other books of the Torah. This is not "neglecting" the Old Testament. Jesus used the Old Testament to prove to anyone who was prepared to listen that He was the Messiah. What He then did was to restate the law in a different way. It is that restatement that Christians follow.
But if the Bible was not written by God then why should anyone believe in anything that it says?
How would a person know that the Earth is 6000 years old? Or that God made Adam & Eve Were these people there at the time?
I just don't get it :'(
And so, the first half of the Bible isn't true Unless Jesus said some parts were true in the new half?
So what's to stop another Jesus from coming and picking only his favourite parts from the first two parts and make a third testament :'(
Sorry I couldn't continue the discussion. It was one o'clock in the morning here in the UK, and I had to get in some sleep. Now travelling to see friends. It'll give me a chance to think further.
However, in answer to your first query, of course God did not write the Bible in the sense of sitting down and applying ink to papyrus, but I do believe that he caused it to be written, by men of faith, not of science, and who tried to explain the mysteries of the creation of Man and the universe as best they could.
However, whatever you want to say about the opening chapters of Genesis, what is undeniable fact is that there was and remains a people called the Israelites, who lived and breathed and came through all manner of wars and tribulations. They devised an exceedingly complex set of rules by which they led their live, and which, by the time of Jesus, was subverted by the rich and wealthy for their own gain. It was Jesus' task to restate all the laws into just one law.
As to your second point, Christians believe there was only one Jesus, who lived and died for us, and who was the son of God. There can be no second Jesus, so the point you are raising doesn't apply.
I'm going to be away from my computer for three whole days now; I do not know how I am going to survive! Good luck with your searching in 2012.
So you agree that the Bible wasn't the word of God, and that parts of it are wrong, because Jesus had to reinstate the laws? But the Bible still includes these old rubbish laws and that's where we take our guidance from?
How can I trust a book that for my moral guidance if it's just written by people, like me, and when parts of the book I have to trust is wrong and savage it doesn't make sense!
"As to your second point, Christians believe there was only one Jesus" but considering there used to be 0 jesus's, and then there was 1 jesus who decided that the existing bible was wrong, the trend would suggest that another jesus character will come along and re-do the bible making a third version of what will be deemed more correct than the past ones :S.
How can you say there can be no second Jesus? Before the first one came along people were probably saying "there can be 0 jesus'" though I guess they wouldn't have to..
Then, God failed miserably "causing men of faith, not of science" to explain anything about men and the universe. In fact, what is contained in the Bible regarding those explanations are so far-fetched and contrary to our understanding of the world, it should have been shelved as myth long ago.
Hey Philanthropy2012--you know that I enjoy having civil conversations with you. And I also agree with the heart of your complaints--you want what is fair and good and true and you don't see the teachings of the Bible as being that. But I also believe that taking verses out of context and deducting a "truth" from that is dangerous. The Bible really needs to be looked at as a whole--it is a great, big narrative and pulling details out of context can twist the intended purpose or meaning. Then their is the language differenc between what it was written in and the English translation. It is best to study the Greek and Hebrew meanings of words and concepts when really wanting to understand the intended purpose. Plus, the cultures were very different from our own and even the way of thinking (Eastern mindset--circular reasoning as opposed to linear reasoning, etc.) makes a difference. Then there is always looking at the historical context. Who is the author and who is the author writing to? The author is writing to a specific people in a specific time. With the issue of slavery in the Bible, for example, it's not slavery the way we think of it. A form of "slavery" that was accepted then was what we would call in our modern day hiring a housekeeper or a servant. I'm not saying that people were not treated as slaves unfairly--but the Bible is not supporting that. When it talks about allowing slaves, it's the slave that is the person who chooses service to an employer (a household) as a job. They get a place to live, food, and pay off their debt. Every so many years, (I think its 7) the slave could decide whether they wanted to be released from the contract or they could make themselves a bond servant--they maybe really loved the family they were working with and wanted to stay. They would choose this profession at that point, even though their debt was paid off. It was a free choice. In terms of murder and killing, that is a big topic to get into via this particular forum but what I will share is this: We have the death penalty in many states (as you said you would write in favor of if I recall correctly) and the death penalty is like a last resort to kill an offender who has done horrific crimes and does not show any signs of changing. We can think of people just deemed "evil" that received this penalty and people call it justice because they are paying the consequences for very horrific and evil actions and no longer are they a threat. This is not so different from the evil that was judged in the Old Testament. And the Old Testament is the old covenant--it was in effect only until Jesus came and He brought a New Covenant--a better way--and where the law judged (and it was set up to judge evil, not to harm people but to protect them) but Jesus fulfilled the payemnt and penalty of the law and brought grace and mercy. The very kind of mercy that if I am correctly assuming you are for, is the kind of mercy that Jesus offers. God judges evil--just as a good judge would make a fair verdict and not call a horrific murder "good" so God does not call evil good. But Jesus wanted to take those consequence upon Himself and pay the death penalty, though He was innocent, so we would't have to. It's the ultimate "rehabilitation" program, if you will--love and grace and truth offers us a way to come out of the evilness of sin and to be transformed into agents of love and justice and freedom. Now, unfortunately, many "religious" Christians don't represent this Jesus--but that doesn't mean that's not who Jesus really is or what He was about God is simply not the evil villain you purport him to be. If your conclusions were correct, I wouldn't like Him either, but I just think there are many pieces that you don't have of the puzzle and the ones you've put together don't create an accurate picture of what God is truly like. But I appreciate your heart, as always. It's not like you don't like God because you are a mean person--I think you want justice and what is right and that is honorable. Thanks for reading!
Whatever the intended purpose, the Bible failed in delivering it.
It is very sad to see believers defend their religions by trying to justify the barbarism and atrocities contained within their scriptures with obvious falsehoods.
Yes, horrific and evil actions like not believing the same God as "deemed" by the followers.
So, the new covenant, GODS WORD, was "a better way" compared to the old covenant, GODS WORD? LOL!
True, he is the evil villain that the Bible makes him out to be.
Nice people couldn't possibly dislike God. LOL!
That sounds super, but there's only one problem with that wish. Atheists and agnostics don't believe in miracles.
To be fair. Why should they believe in miricals.?
I would love to see quiet discussion where all views were respected. But, on this forum? It would take a miracle.
I take your point. Also a mioracle if I stop my spelling errors.
Isn't this typical?
I'm "out of control" because I refuse to do any more than what I said I do: I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, I respect their right to teach their children their beliefs, and I respect their right be free to practice those beliefs.
All I said was that as an atheist, I cannot give any respect to the actual belief. That's interpreted as a "personal attack" and I'm told that I have "anger management" issues.
Where's the anger? Am I "angry" if you assert the moon is made of cheese and I tell you that it most certainly is not? Am I "attacking" when I say that leprechauns are imaginary beings?
This is SO typical of the PC religion crowd.
Agreed. It is hard for people to accept challenge, especially in terms of personal belief.
It's funny that you never hear atheists asking anyone to respect our beliefs. We ask that our RIGHTS be respected - and they often are not!
Oh dear, you are digging a deeper and deeper hole for yourself. At least you have calmed down on the shouting in capital letters. So there must be some hope that you can work out your anger issues. I'm off to the pub with friends. Do you have any?
No. You keep forgetting. You said my beliefs were silly. Nowhere did I state my beliefs if you read original post. You made an personal attack by saying my beliefs were silly. Take some medicine or seek psychiatric help.
If you read original post I was wishing all mankind to be kind and civil. It is a shame you have reached the age of 64 and still act like a juvenile. I sometimes peruse the religious forums but extremely rarely contribute. You seem to have a compulsive obsession to spout your opinions.
Seriously, seek help.
Making fun of beliefs isn't a personal attack. Calling you an idiot for believing in them would be.
If a child was brought up believing in Santa and someone challenged his belief and called them "silly", he's not attacking the child.............
Humanity should be first; then morality and spiritualty in ascending order.
If it wasn't for all the sinners, then there would be no need for religion. Gives 'em something to do.
Well first of all, i would like to say thanks to seanorjohn for wishing us all well, as I do him as well. I think the world would be a better place if we could all respect each other equally, as that's probably one of the world's biggest problems.
Look, I'm not going to take sides between you and seanorjohn, as I respect both of you equally. However, from reading this thread, I would have to concur he hasn't said anything disrespectful to you, and hasn't stated a belief in anything. Again, I'm not here to pick sides, but I'm just saying.
Thanks Stevenix,I wish you a happy new year and recognise you as a great writer. I recommend everyone to read your film reviews.
PCUNIX is the only hubber that really annoys me. He is so aggressive and I thought it wAS wrong of him to stop tributes to earnesthub from Christians. I don't get involved in this stuff but Earnest was a great guy.
I may be an atheist or agnostic, so I don't understand PCUNIX attacking me.
For some peculiar reason he thinks I am a fundamental Christian. I certainly am not that.
I think he has written enough for all of us to see what type of man he is.
Yes , even at 64 you can grow up.(unfortunately PC can't}
Steven! Seanor told Pcunix that there "is no hope for you"
That's arguably one of the most disrespectful things a person can say to another
And I have?
Why don't you read what I actually said rather than what he SAYS I said?
Here, I'll help you: http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/89881#post1919551
Actually, I did read everything that you both said, as I even stated that in my comment towards you. Are you implying that I have no thought of my own? That I lack the reading comprehension skills to read and comprehend what you said? Is that what you're implying? If so, I have to say I find that very offensive. Don't worry, I won't report you, but you are showing a lot of hostility though for someone who claims to invoke reason and tolerance.
Look, as I said before, I have no intention in taking sides, as I merely wanted to point out that you misread his statements, and possibly breathing more into this thread than what it was intended for.
"I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous." - Brian W. Kernighan
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