Romans 2:12-16

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  1. Captain Redbeard profile image60
    Captain Redbeardposted 11 years ago

    "12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus."

    Does this imply that Jesus is not needed for salvation?

    1. tlmcgaa70 profile image60
      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      John 3:16
      King James Version (KJV)
      16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

      John 10
      King James Version (KJV)
      John 10

      1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

      2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

      3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

      4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

      5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

      6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

      7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

      8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

      9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

      works alone will not save anyone. belief in CHRIST is the only path to salvation. yet, if one claims to believe in CHRIST and not obey HIM, then they will not be them CHRIST will say "I never knew you"

    2. brittanytodd profile image90
      brittanytoddposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I wrote a hub that talked about this verse, Paul, and where it is contradicted in later verses.

  2. Ms Dee profile image86
    Ms Deeposted 11 years ago

    No. Rather, it implies doing God's law, not hearing it, is what is required. And, it is a doing of it that has no 'mistakes'--doing it perfectly. This further implies that we all fall short of that, as there is no one who can do it perfectly...that is until Christ came and carried it out perfectly.

    1. Captain Redbeard profile image60
      Captain Redbeardposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      But it is saying that those who never heard it and do it by their own consciencesness. It sounds to me like it isn't exactly saying that, "Christ is not needed." Rather, this is the bases of, "No man will stand before God without excuse." Doesn't it?

      My wife's step dad always says he can't believe in a God or Jesus that would send someone to hell just because they never heard the gospel message. Doesn't this show that you don't need to hear it? That there is a piece of all of us that knows what is right before God, that it will be these people who have never seen nor heard that will be judged by whether or not they let themselves be ruled by that conscienceness or their hedonistic desires?

  3. A Troubled Man profile image58
    A Troubled Manposted 11 years ago

    Perfect = Magic.

    1. Druid Dude profile image61
      Druid Dudeposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      perfect is not equal to magic...unless you consider mathematics magic.  Jesus was no more perfect than you or I. The Law is for the houses of Israel, and pertained only to them. Jesus and disciples, rejected by Judah, are for the gentiles. In effect, Jesus is their Moses.

    2. profile image49
      Jesus was a hippoposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I just noticed you are the number one poster in the religious forum and you got no hubs. Dont you make any money from posting here?

  4. Michele Travis profile image67
    Michele Travisposted 11 years ago

    What if a child dies before being baptized. Would that child go to hell?  I don't think so.  What about someone who have very deep mental retardation, who cannot even understand speach?  There are hospitals for people who have disabilities that are so severe they cannot speak, hear, move, understand.  Would they go to hell?
    I am a Christian, but they do not understand Christ, they have not told God, they want to be Christian, so they have not accepted Christ. Do you think they are going to hell?
    I don't think they are.

    1. tlmcgaa70 profile image60
      tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

      for a child who has not reaached the age of accountability (knowing right from wrong) they are sinless. if anyone grew up yet never knew right from wrong, like those whose mental states remain as a child, they are sinless.
      GOD says NO ONE will be able to say they never heard of GOD...even if it is GOD HIMSELF who tells them. do you think that the creator of life, of us, would be unable to tell us about HIM? GOD knows every mans heart. HE is the only one besides CHRIST who has the right to judge us, to give eternal life or to with hold it.

      1. DoubleScorpion profile image73
        DoubleScorpionposted 11 years agoin reply to this

        Paul says "All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God". No age or stipulations added.

        There is nothing in the bible that regards age or anything else as an exemption.

        So if using the Bible, I wouldn't be inclined to follow the "age of accountabilty" theory.

        All mankind is accountable to God, no exeptions or exemptions are made.

    2. A Troubled Man profile image58
      A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      Then, if not heaven or hell, where do they go? smile

      1. tlmcgaa70 profile image60
        tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

        it is my personal belief (and i dont expect others to agree) that when a person dies, they go to either hell (hades) or paradise (not quite heaven). JESUS told the repentant thief "This day you will be with ME in paradise" and in the parable of Lazarus (not the one JESUS raised from the dead) and the rich man, the rich man was in hades while Lazarus was in a place of comfort. also in Revalation, it says "death and hell gave up the dead that were in them". i believe that when JESUS used the term "sleep" as in she is not dead but sleepeth...HE is referring to true death after judgement. HE could 'waken" the dead because they had not been through the final death of judgement yet. as i say, this is my own personal belief and not one i expect others to share.

        1. A Troubled Man profile image58
          A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

          You didn't answer the question, where do the others go if not heaven or hell?

          If you have no answer, then obviously something is missing from your personal beliefs that does not work. It doesn't matter if others agree or not, your beliefs have a problem with consistency. smile

          1. tlmcgaa70 profile image60
            tlmcgaa70posted 11 years agoin reply to this

            i dont understand your question the end everyone either goes to heaven or hell, no exceptions. if i said something to make you believe there was a third alternative, i apologize.

            1. A Troubled Man profile image58
              A Troubled Manposted 11 years agoin reply to this

              Sorry, you are correct, it was Michelle who I had asked the question because she said not all people go to heaven or hell.

              If no exceptions, then those whose brains are not functioning correctly (God made a mistake) and are unable to fathom religion or accept Jesus are going to hell? Newborn babies going to hell? Everyone going to hell who doesn't fit into your religions extremely narrow view?

  5. AshtonFirefly profile image72
    AshtonFireflyposted 11 years ago

    I have seen many Christians almost strangle each other over this very question.

    Faith vs. "works" etc...

    It gets ugly.

    1. Captain Redbeard profile image60
      Captain Redbeardposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I am realizing the folly of this post right now. hmm

      I never think things through before I post.....

  6. ledefensetech profile image68
    ledefensetechposted 11 years ago

    This suggests that people follow the Law instinctively.  Christ is not needed to follow the Law.  That's not what He was here for anyway.  Christ is the intercessor between the Father and humankind.  When people choose not to follow the Law, Christ intervenes on our behalf through forgiveness and redemption so that we may choose of our own volition to follow the Law.

    In essence, you're confusing knowledge of what's right and wrong with redemption through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

    1. Captain Redbeard profile image60
      Captain Redbeardposted 11 years agoin reply to this

      I can see my confusion in that. So you infer that this verse suggests that it is simply and purley talking about the judgment of works and has nothing to do with salvation?


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