Public Prayer

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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
This site has repeatedly had Christians lamenting what they see as secular attempts to undermine the Christian right to public prayer. I just read an interesting article that sums up my problem with the argument for prayer in schools. I'd be interested in hearing Christian comments as to why you feel justified in circumventing clear instructions on behavior in your scriptures regarding this subject. I've put an excerpt of the article below.

The Bible is very clear in what it says about the proper way for Christians to pray,stating in the Gospel of Matthew chapter 6,verses 5-6,

When thou prayest,thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets,that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you,They have their reward.

But thou,when thou prayest,enter into thy closet,and when thou hast shut thy door,pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

The full article can be read at http://irregulartimes.com/secretprayer.html
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  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So they get their reward now, rather than later.
  
  I very rarely will pray in public, even in prayer meetings I will not 'pray' much out loud, God 'hears' my every thought and prayer that is made in 'secret'.
  
  I would 'pray' out loud when it was required that the enemy heard our prayers, for he is not privy to our thoughts and prayers, so when we address the enemy, normally by quoting scripture to him, we can deny him the power to attack someone.
  
  That needs to be done in public, or at least out loud.
  
  But I see nothing wrong with communal prayer to express the solidarity of faith, provided that those who do not wish to show that solidarity are entitled to withdraw for the prayer time.
  
  But there are instances when corporate prayer was used in 'public':
  
  Acts 1:13-15
  King James Version (KJV)
  And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
  
  These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
  
  And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,).....
  
  These references are in Acts, which is the description of the church forming, I see no reason why corporate prayer is wrong in scripture, Christ is speaking in your quote about public prayer for personal gain.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's the same as giving in public, this praying on the street corner thing. Public charity is just another attempt at baiting the attention of others. There's always going to be the "look at me I'm a good follower/giving/religious" person. They feel the need to stand out, as if it makes them better in some way. We're all the same though, we start with nothing and we leave with nothing.
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  lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thought the idea of having prayers in school was to teach children how to pray. It means that if a person wishes to pray when they are older, school has given them a basic lesson in how to access that spiritual facility. Learning how to pray is just another tool that may or may not come in handy one day. For some people, that is the only time in their lives they do any praying.
  What is it about praying that people have a problem with?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My children don't need someone else teaching them to pray. IF I wanted them taught that then I would teach myself or take them to one of the members of my fellowship.
  
  It is part of my religious beliefs that my children should avoid directed exposure to any religion until they are of an age to fully grasp the concept.
  So yes... it is actually going against my faith to have my children exposed to school prayer.
  
  Maybe you would like me to expose your kids to my religious beliefs against your will?
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  lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't suggesting anyone do anything against another person's will. I asked the question, "what do people have a problem with?" You answered it.
  I would like to point out that to refuse to pray with children in school is also an imposition. To pray or not to pray are equal arguments.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No they aren't. You are perfectly capable of exposing your children to whatever you like in your own home.
  
  I cannot unexpose my children if they are forced to witness it.
  
  Religion/Faith (or lack thereof) is one of the biggest influences on how an individual thinks and behaves for their entire life. I personally would influence my kids beliefs no more than I would give them plastic surgery. It makes me ripe royally pissed when someone is so presumptuous to try to indoctrinate my children before they are of an age to make their own decisions on what they feel is right. School prayer is basically molesting a child's mind.
  
  They are too young to understand that the people that are supposed to teach them math and reading... the people that are the source of wisdom in their lives... are saying confusing and incredible things that are likely untrue. And the adults are doing it for no purpose other than to spread their faith.
  
  It's taking advantage of children that are too young to protect themselves.
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  lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I see where you're coming from. I hate the idea of other people force-feeding my children with their own ideologies. That's why we don't have a TV.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  TV is force-feeding ideologies to your children? Does that mean you're unable to explain to them the differences between what they see on TV and reality?
  
  Oh wait... never mind.
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  lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You wouldn't understand
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  lizzieBooposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of all the horrible things that could happen to my children, being encouraged to pray along side their peers every now and then would not be among the worst I could think of. Prayer, of whatever religion, is surely a beautiful thing? It also unites people of different faiths. It's prayer we're talking about, not any other particular cultural activity. I wouldn't want my children to prostrate themselves in the direction of the sun or sit on a bed of nails, but I would be proud to see them join in peaceful prayer with any members of Christian denominations or believers of other faiths.
  There are many more people with a religion culture in the world than not, and I think it would be beneficial for children to be able to relate to them more.
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  Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think school is the place to teach prayer. But I also don't think school is the place to teach meditation either, if that is done with quasi-religious overtones. If parents want their children to learn how to pray, there is Sunday School for that; or, even better, the parents can teach it in their own homes, as my parents did and as my husband and I have done.
  
  What if the person teaching the prayer is a... Scientologist... or a Moonie ... or... you name it? I honestly don't mean to offend those groups; I simply mean that there is no guarantee that the person "teaching" the prayer would mean the same thing by prayer that I do.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You know, I didn't used to have a problem with it. I used the school prayers to teach my son tolerance for the views of others. Respect and courtesy for your elders, and most of all as a lesson in understanding that you can respect the crowd without following it.
  
  But, times change. The number of people of other belief structures is growing and the dwindling number of evangelicals are getting pretty obnoxious here. They've made the bed they find themselves in and their desire to bully everyone into toeing their line is the reason I find myself rolling my eyes at the religious more openly with every passing day.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not only is prayer utterly useless as a tool, people can go to their local cult temples if they want to learn how to pray. School has far more important and relevant subjects to teach children.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First: Schools are not churches. It is not their job to teach people to pray.
  Second: People don't have problems with praying, it's how those who pray push their prayer agendas. If you were a Buddhist would you want to be forced to recite or listen to Christian prayers? I think if people wish to pray, it is up to them to do so. They don't have to have praying condoned or laws passed to allow them to do it. They simply need to do it in a way that respects the religions (or non religious beliefs) of others. Why can't people understand THAT!!
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't pray to be seen of men, doesn't mean you can't pray if anyone is around. It's about the reason for praying, not the act itself
  
  We used to have a group prayer before school in high school. Totally voluntary and run by the students. About 8 years ago the superintendent said students weren't allowed to do that anymore. That's the problem with 'separation of church and state'. It's been taken beyond the meaning of the constitution, and turned into a political buzzword.
  
  Interestingly, the same school allowed Muslim students to use a small room for prayers.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your principal was a moron and abused his authority. However, large groups that pray publicly on school property should not be permitted to do so. It is insulting to those who don't have the same beliefs, a violation of church and state rulings and intimidating to those who don't "belong" or "agree". Why didn't your group meet at someone's home before school or at a local nearby church? Why was it so important to use the school grounds to do so? You should think of these things before taking actions regarding the way in which you pray.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you don't allow students to gather of their own accord to pray, then you can't allow students to gather of their own accord to do anything. Otherwise, you are doing nothing but stifling free speech and freedom of religion.
  Church and state doesn't mean you aren't allowed to follow your beliefs, it means the government cannot control religious beliefs.
  
  It's no more intimidating than pep rallies are intimidating to the socially awkward. What if a group of students wants to meet beforehand to discuss poetry, that could bother people who don't like poetry.
  
  There was nowhere near to meet, everyone already had to go to school, anything else would be extra travel. The point is, there is nothing wrong with doing that. There is no law against it, and it is a protected act. Anyone who gets offended by it is the one with the problem.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  People can gather at churches to pray, schools are not the venues for that. Of course, no one is stopping students from gathering and praying at lunchtime, as if they'll actually waste their time doing that.
  
  Poetry is taught in schools, is it not? Are there institutions in which poets are commanded by their poet gods to evangelize poetry in societies.
  
  Get real, dude.
  
  Yes, go ahead and offend people, it's their problem, not yours.
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  jdflomposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My response to the original posed question is that I believe public prayer should be allowed and protected under the first amendment, notably the freedom of speech, freedom of religion, and freedom of assembly if done in groups. I do not however think it should be forced or even suggested that anyone MUST participate.
  
  As an atheist, I personally have never had a problem with prayer in school. Several of my peers were in groups that prayed, but no one was ever forced and I never had to participate against my will. I wasn't even pressured into doing it. That is my own personal experience, and I believe it to be a good and positive one. I know there have been varying experiences and it's too bad that some people have been forced to pray in school against their own beliefs.
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MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago
Interesting read, thank you.

Personally, I have no problem with public prayer. I do have a problem with prayer in school though. It's not really the same thing though. Public prayer is freedom of speech and religion... prayer in school is a violation of religious freedom.

My main issue is that children in school cannot escape if they choose not to participate. Thereby they are being forced to participate in a religion that might not be their own. If I see someone praying on a street corner I am able to avoid them and I am certainly under no pressure to join them. There is a huge difference.

The second issue I have with prayer in school is that it violates my parental right to raise my children in the faith that I choose thus, again, violating my right to freedom of religion. If I choose to have my children raised without exposure to Christianity that choice should not be usurped by a government agency.

Which brings me to the third issue. Public schools are government run institutions. They should not be advocating any religious position. Any prayer from any religion that is included as an organized event is advocating belief in a specific religion over another.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK, now, when they say no prayer in public schools, I see NO prayer in public schools. I agree with the fact that religion should not be taught in school. Thr teachers should not be allowed to advocate prayer and force paryer. But, and that's a big BUT, I don't see anything wrong if a child wants to say a prayer at his/her desk before a test, or in the cafeteria before lunch, as long as it is to hm/her self. A lot of people, including myself, feel that when they say "no religion in public schools" that they are disallowing that freedom to pray to ones self too.
  I'm not a religious person, nor am I an athiest, I just believe in our American freedoms. My opinion, Greg
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There is no such thing as freedom, we gave up our freedoms. It's not for the people, by the people anymore. Now its for the government, by the people. We're to lazy to defend our freedoms and we're too comfrotable to care.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, people like you, who have given up, have no freedoms. For one thing, you are still free to write on here. Greg
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm talking about personal freedoms... You're free, as long as those freedoms are of a standard. We're pretty much told what we can wear, where we can go and what we can do with our selve's. They tell us we can't do that, we can't eat that and that's off limits. They say we can't have sex for money and that prostetutes can't sell themselve's. Personal freedom has consequences, still none can truly protect us from ourselve's.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Being able to write on here isn't a personal freedon? As for the the what we wear, shere we go and ourselves, I don't know where you live, but I am pretty much able to do whatever I want in that area. You just have to have and show respect for other people's feelings and senses, that's common courtesy. As for the prostitutes, there is a health issue there, I feel, tom, more than a moral issue. They should be able to do what they want, a lot do, but they have to take the responsibility to stay safe too. That's probably a good hub. My opinion, Greg
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you. And I don't see the ban on prayer in public school as inhibiting the freedoms of the individual. I think people are still more than free to pray to themselves, if they so wish.
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  wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course it doesn't - a total ban on prayer in public schools would not be enforceable. What would you do to a child that pauses before lunch time, just sitting quietly for a few moments? Is she praying? Who knows? The idea of trying to ban all prayer is silly and of no value.
  
  But, of course, that isn't what the right wing Christians want. They would have the entire school go silent and listen to some teacher or administrator give a prayer to their God. A ban on this IS enforceable, and necessary as well. Even a school wide "moment of silence" for those wishing to pray is unreasonable - you are still forcing all students to participate in a religious activity.
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  Aficionadaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This reminds me of the old "joke" from decades ago, when the argument over prayer in public schools was young: "As long as teachers give tests, there will be prayer in schools." - The idea, of course, being that no one can regulate what goes on in another person's mind and heart (barring actual, honest-to-goodness brainwashing).
  
  This part I do disagree with. Some atheists and agnostics that I know observe silent moments of reflection, thinking about departed loved ones, remembering their contributions. A moment of silence is not automatically and absolutely religious at all.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't find praying to one's self to be a problem... even in school. As long as it isn't in a group and isn't sponsored by a teacher/principal.
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  LeanChrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've never heard of a grade-school child who took it upon themselves to pray without being coerced by an adult. I would be far more likely to assume indigestion than prayer.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh I once saw the 8 year old child of a pagan and an atheist spontaneously fall to his knees and pray to the Christian God... but the circumstances were very extreme. Both parents were converted within a month afterwards. (Although it likely happened that second)
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  LeanChrisposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well said, Melissa. I don't think one can add to that, you covered all the bases.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Some of us religious nuts occasionally show signs of rationality Seriously, thank you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Unfortunately Melissa, one of the very few things I agree with the delusional and insane Christians is the fact that you aren't one of them.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You really are a troubled man, aren't you? Why is it that Christians are delusional and insane just because they don't belisve the same way you do? That's what is wrong with this world, nobody can let someone else believe the way they want to without criticizing them. It's really screwed up, and that has a lot to do with why. My opinion, Greg.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  McNaughten tried to kill the then Tories Prime Minister and killed the secretary, by acting on what he believed/experienced to be true.
  Two educated men flew planes to buildings because they were acting on their "belief". There are no degrees of irrationality, only irrationality and it'll be safer to find such people and treat them!
  Absence of belief is not belief in Absence.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Only if you insist I am.
  
  First of all, I don't "beleive" in things, I understand things.
  
  Secondly, the beliefs of Christians are delusional and often insane, and considering they've been commanded to go out and evangelize those delusions and insanity, it is not something I can avoid.
  
  That's not entirely true. If Christians and other religions didn't force their beliefs on societies or evangelize those beliefs, but instead, kept them well behind closed doors where they belonged, then no one would care what they believed.
  
  Perhaps, you need to rethink that opinion, Greg, based on what's going on in reality.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  TM, you generalize and group people together, and that's not being fair. Not all Christians are the way you are claiming. There are the real "nut cases", but not all of them. I'm not even religious, but I don't feel it is right that people are grouped together. Just because someone is a Christian, doesn't make him a fanatic. My opinion, Greg
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It only becomes fanatical, when all other ideas are demonized and trampled upon. I've met some pretty level headed christians, they don't take it that seriously, God's not that important. At least not important enough to insult the ideas of others, like many christians do.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Excuse me? Are Christians not a group of people? Are they all supposed to be treated differently by their God and all have different commands to obey and different messages to live by?
  
  Or, are Christians ALL supposed to be living by ONE set of commands and ONE set of messages and treated exactly the same by ONE God with ONE Gospel?
  
  The fact that there are over 38,000 registered denominations of Christianity would show well beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christians won't even abide by their own religious tenets or be grouped together as ONE as they are commanded by their God.
  
  Show me anywhere in their Gospel which states they aren't supposed to be grouped together following different messages and commands or are to be treated any differently from each other?
  
  And, what is a fanatical Christian? Is it one who actually follows all of the commands of Scriptures and obeys their Gods word to the tee? Isn't that what they are ALL supposed to do?
  
  Or, can they all just cherry pick the Bible when it suits their personal needs and agendas?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The metatron has spoken. I hope everyone now bows to your interpretation.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's it? That's the best you can do? In other words, you don't agree but you also have nothing to say in refutation because perhaps you know it to be true, but just want to hear it?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, that little tirade didn't deserve a lengthy response. I usually respond in a similar manner to all fanatical comments, because (and I think you might agree with this) fanatics can rarely be reasoned with.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Tirade? Fanatic?
  
  So, what you're disagreeing with is the fact that Christians shouldn't follow the Gospel, that they shouldn't follow their Gods word and they shouldn't be treated the same by their God?
  
  Okee dokee. Hypocrisy reigns supreme.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It only appears hypocritical to someone such as yourself, who assumes their take on the words is the one truth. I'm not sure how your outlook is different from the 38,000 sects. You are insisting you are right and they are wrong. At this point, I'm wondering when your next revival meeting is scheduled.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What are you talking about? Don't Christians believe their take on the word of their God is the one truth? What does that have to do with me?
  
  No, I'm not. I don't insist anything. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy of there being 38,000 different sects.
  
  You don't even an argument, Emile. Very disappointing. I expected much more from you.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh darn. I've disappointed ATM. Whatever shall I do?
  
  You are arguing vehemently that everyone within Christianity should agree, which is no different from the evangelical Christian argument; from where I'm standing. The only thing that separates you from them is that I assume you don't envision an eternal hell in the afterlife for those who won't toe.your line. Although, reading your posts to the fundamentalists, sometimes it appears as if you want to give those who don't agree with you a taste of hell on earth.
  
  You cannot lump believers together into a neat package, if you expect to not be perceived as a hypocrite when they turn it back on you.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, I'm actually agreeing with the entire concept of Christianity that all Christians should agree on their faith.
  
  That's bs and you know it.
  
  You have no idea what I'm even saying and are just once again putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make an argument.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Let's recap. You said:
  
  are Christians ALL supposed to be living by ONE set of commands and ONE set of messages and treated exactly the same by ONE God with ONE Gospel?
  
  The answer to that is....obviously not to the Christians within the 38,000 sects that give others room for freedom of conscience. Yet, obviously to the fanatical sects and obviously to you they are.
  
  You said:
  The fact that there are over 38,000 registered denominations of Christianity would show well beyond a shadow of a doubt that Christians won't even abide by their own religious tenets or be grouped together as ONE as they are commanded by their God.
  
  No, more pointedly, they won't abide by the interpreted rules the fundamentalists claim was a command by their God and.... you do too. So, you appear to be a fundamentalist on this issue also.
  
  You said:
  Show me anywhere in their Gospel which states they aren't supposed to be grouped together following different messages and commands or are to be treated any differently from each other?
  
  Which, like a fundamentalist, you look to scripture to seal your opinion. Lacking the ability to think this through on your own.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And, what exactly is "freedom of conscience"? Please show me the relevant verses in the Bible that support it? And, why is "obviously not to the Christians" that they are NOT supposed to follow their Gods commands?
  
  Again, you have no idea what I'm talking about here and are just creating your own scenario. We aren't talking about what I think about scriptures, but how Christians are supposed to abide by them. What you're saying, which is completely contradictory to your arguments with Christians, is that they aren't supposed to follow their Gods commands or their scriptures and can do whatever they please. Yes?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You aren't a fundamentalist. Why are you attempting to argue as if you were?
  
  Your interpretation of their God's commands might be different from another individual's interpretation of their God's command. Does your opinion take precedent? If so...why?
  
  I agree that if the individual Christian insists that any law is written in stone by their understanding of their religion; they should abide by it. But, how do you think 38,000 sects came into being? Because they all agree? Are you claiming one is right and all the others are wrong? I find it difficult to understand why you can't see that this type of intractability is no different from the staunchly religious claims.
  
  What I am saying is, where the devil did you come up with me saying Christians should follow their God's command other than that there is no command except to Love God and their Neighbor as themself? I hate to clue you in on this, but loving your neighbor doesn't mean you have to agree with them. I don't think loving a god means you have to agree with anyone else either. It isn't an attempt to fill a dance card. You can certainly go your own way, follow your gut instincts and do your own thing while giving respect to others; even if you walk a completely different path from anyone else.
  
  Sometimes I think I type just to hear myself talk with you. You have no idea what I'm getting at...I'm sure.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, and neither do you.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's simple ATM. If God exists, he gave you a brain. Use it. If you need scriptural reference, you've already missed the point.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes, I missed the point.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I didn't miss your point, which always appears to be insisting that each Christian do exactly the same thing as the other, making it easier for you to call them something like sheep and delusional. I suppose, since you don't take the time to develop a valid argument, the laughie faces are useful to fill the void.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yup, you missed the point entirely.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since this exchange began with your specific insistence that all Christians toe the same line.....I think you are now full of it.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Which, of course, still doesn't preclude the fact you missed the point entirely. Are you done being intellectually dishonest?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Troubled, you never responded. Is it ok for students to gather to pray before school?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whose going to stop them? That's like asking if it's ok for students to gather to smoke cigarettes before school. They will, regardless.
  
  But of course, the entire point of the issue is what the school is advocating.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Then why did you take issue with my earlier comments? We gathered before school to pray, and you said that wasn't the place for it.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It isn't the place to pray, it's a place of learning, not a place to propagate indoctrination.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Now do you understand why I homeschool?
  
  Do I get an apology at some point?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely. I apologize.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Awww... you big softie You just got prettier.
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thought you said it was ok to pray during student's free time.
  
  How is saying a prayer indoctrination?
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  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No, she nailed it firmly to the masthead.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just because they don't all follow the same Christian denomination, as you say, does that give you the right to call them names? A fanatical Christian, in my opinion, is one that goes out and preaches on corners and/or tries to push their religion on others in the name of Christianity. My opinion, Greg.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not calling anyone names.
  
  Is a Christian one who should follow the Gospel? Should a Christian follow the Bible? Should any Christian be singled out and treated differently by their God? Should a Christian be allowed to just cherry pick the Bible in any way, shape or form they desire?
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  TM, you are calling Christians dilusional and insane. Those are names and you are refering to all Christians, grouping them. Greg
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are us heathens insane? Are we crazy for denying your God/god? What are your views of non-christians?
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are referring to the beliefs of Christians which are delusional and insane. Of course, there have been discussions here in which folks agree that insane people have taken up religion, too. But, the main focus is on the beliefs and claims themselves, not the people.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That was actually a compliment he paid me and I accepted it as what it was
  
  The Christians on the boards have repeatedly told me that I'm not a Christian so many times that I've let them have their exclusivity gladly. If being granted the title of "Christian" means I have to agree with most of the opinions/beliefs that a majority of them on these forums have than I'm happy not to be in their club.
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  TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are spot on with your views. It is a very clear issue, but many choose to blur it.
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  gregasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And TT, who are you refering to? Greg
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Paul Wingertposted 12 years ago
Public prayer is acceptable providing that it's quiet and kept to oneself. Pushing religious belifs on another in a public place is totally not acceptable.
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  Druid Dudeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus called those who made a public spectacle of praying "hyppocrites" "Go to your private place and pray in secret, that God may reward you openly."
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  Paul Wingertposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That I will agree with and makes better sense. I guess it would be embarrassing to show people around you how religious you are by praying openly and loudly an nothing happens.
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JaxsonRaineposted 12 years ago
Wait, what is your position? Students can't gather to pray but they can at lunch?

There should be nothing offensive about students praying, and there is nothing obtrusive about it. I'm not talking about forcing prayers on students or praying in class.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Whose going to stop students from praying at lunch time, if indeed students would ever waste their lunchtimes doing so?
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  JaxsonRaineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was talking about students who were praying before school started, so what's different about that and lunch time?
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BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years ago
When the shooting started in that school cafeteria in Chardon, Ohio a week ago, I'm betting just about everyone was praying publicly.
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MelissaBarrettposted 12 years ago
Girls, Girls... You're both pretty.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You do realize mine's an avatar? That isn't really me. And, if ATM is a girl, I have to ask.....do you really think so?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying you're not pretty?
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No. It was a joke ATM. She was obviously joking. She couldn't know what I look like and you are obviously other than a girl, judging by that avatar.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Men can be pretty too. Generally avoid these men like the plague as I like to have a turn in the bathroom too.
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True, but you did call him a girl.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  What's your take on this, Melissa? Do you think (not believe) Christians should follow the Gospel or be allowed to pick and choose at their discretion?
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  *smiles* You know the answer to that ATM but I like to hear myself type:
  
  For me personally, I take the bible as inspirational but not necessarily factual. The story is what motivates so therefore I don't particularly care whether the events actually happened. (Although I do believe that Jesus existed-as a prophet/wise man). Most of Jesus' teachings are a very good source... in general... on how to live the life that I want to live. The Bible, however, was written by men that lived in a completely different time and many of the specific behaviors/beliefs that were acceptable then are not compatible with the world today. Many- in my opinion- verged on barbaric even by 200 A.D.
  
  So yes, I cherry-pick the hell out of the Bible.
  
  However, if you want to take the Bible literally, then that is your prerogative. BUT... if you are going to insist that only those who follow the gospels literally are Christians then you need to realize that you are likely not a Christian either. Even if you are, most of the others in your church are not and certainly not every denomination who claims the title of Christian.
  
  In addition, if following the gospels to the word is necessary to enter heaven then Jesus is likely to be the only one there.
  
  *Edit: Nope... Jesus wouldn't be there either. Nevermind.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you, Melissa, for your honesty and integrity, unlike so many others here. Yes, I expected you were going to write something like that, but it needed to be written so others could see the "truth"
  
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BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years ago
When the shooting started in that school cafeteria in Chardon, Ohio a week ago, I'm betting just about everyone was praying publicly.

I see no troubled man (or woman) touched that one with a ten foot pole.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You mean, the believers were praying.
  
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  BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Funny thing how so many naysayers become believers when the Grim Reaper comes a calling.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it's funnier when believers believe such nonsense.
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  MelissaBarrettposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll grab it...
  
  If you are stopping to pray while people are shooting around you, it just might be an indication that creationism IS correct and natural selection doesn't exist. If natural selection existed two people with no more sense than to stop praying and duck and cover would have never survived to reproduce a child that would do the same.
  
  Personally, I believe that if you are praying rather than trying to CYOA while bullets are flying around you then God likely doesn't want you in heaven anyway... You would just be a reminder that he created idiots.
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  mischeviousmeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Naturally sellected nincompoops...?
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  BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It appears to me that an idiot in these present times is a parent who does not permit his/her child to take a Glock 26 to school, for self defense purposes only.
  
  To relate this to olden biblical times, Samson fought with the jawbone of an ass (heathen).
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Druid Dudeposted 12 years ago
When you think, you pray.
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  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed, when you think, you pray... to a spiritual entity...believers have just identified who the pray to.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes, I'm going to trust your judgement...
  
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