Since religious discussions are so popular, what's the point of prayer

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TahoeDocposted 13 years ago
Can you really change God's mind? If yes, then what does that say about God?
If not, then why do it? And why ask others to pray for you or for someone who is perceived to be in need of prayer? I have asked this question to many religious people because I've never understood the purpose of things like prayer chains and getting entire congregations to pray for a member.

I'm really curious about this.
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, effectively, if you think prayer works you think you can change God's mind. After all, God would have foreseen all possible consequences of all possible actions so the way things are currently going is just fine according to God (at least no intervention was deemed necessary). Whether God grants you your prayed wishes is long known before you start praying.
  
  Most religious people resolve this by saying that praying is just about maintaining a relationship with God. Ok fine, but then don't claim prayer influences the world around us because God decides to act upon your prayers.
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  kessposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The mind of the Father is already set and cannot change.
  
  It not what will the father do , but what are we doing...
  He has given us everything to make things happen in this earth.
  
  So what soever you desire it is there for the taking God has decreed this from the very beginning.
  
  All it takes is the desire to find Truth...
  This Truth will show you God and his Ways..
  
  The prays of religion Christian is base primarily on ignorance of God and Truth.
  
  When and if something happens it is always without te understanding of Truth...thus they spread Lies.
  
  This is why is it said of them " we cast out demon and heal the sick in you name...he responded depart from me workers of iniquity...I never knew you"
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  klarawieckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No prayer for me. The old man knows what I need and what's best for me.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Every single thought is a prayer. I agree with klara. Real mindreader. Anticipates me at every single turn.
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi TahoeDoc! Since/If you really want understand this, I can recommend a book that helped others I know: "God of the Possible" by Gregory A. Boyd. It has to do with the Open View of the future. And yes, this view is in line with the assumption that God actually does change his mind.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't buy that. We just don't perceive the larger plan into which we fit perfectly. We are putty in his hands, not he in ours. Peace
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  Ms Deeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, I used to think it was that way.
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  ramesh kavdiaposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  prayer is just like doing surrender and dropping our ego. It has to be listened by God for sure if and only if you have strong trust and depth in your prayer. In this universe everything is reflected. If you pray to God then God will listen to you and if you pray to Satan then Satan will listen to you.
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  aslanlightposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You might be interested in 'The Divine Matrix' by Greg Braden. It explains how we can create our own lives and it's a lot to do with wiling what we want; healing and such. If you think about it it makes sense. When we pray we draw God to us and when we pray for what's good we're tuning into God's will. Therefore I don't think it's a matter of changing God's mind but of changing ours, or directing it towards what's beneficial and good for others and ourselves. When a number of people pray the combined will is even stronger and like a powerful magnet attracting healing etc.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The concept, I believe, is to increase the faith of the individual. It should not always constitute a request but rather to build a relationship with our creator. This is the way by which we receive revelation and guidance from above. Our lives become enriched the closer we draw to the spirit of God. This is something which will always need to be improved upon, that is why we need to pray. It's all about the promotion of spiritual growth.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I fully agree.
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  Darrke Thoughtsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not all prayer is aimed at getting a specific result. What about people who pray for help/advice/inspiration to get through difficult times?
  
  For me prayer helps focus on what is important in life. I think the listening part is more important than the talking part. I see God as a source of answers, not as a source to fill my greed.
  
  If you ask for something in prayer and don't get it, isn't is just God saying that it's not a good idea for you? Faith is believing God knows best, or the universe is on track, and that you will have what you need... even if it's not always what you want.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like food for the starving, wanted and needed?
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  Dave Mathewsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It is not necessarily a matter of changing God's mind for something, rather asking Him to look at a situation a different way. Moses asked God to hold back his anger against the Hebrew people that had been freed from Egypt when they sinned while Moses was talking with Him on the mountain.
  Abraham asked God how many people it would take to be found innocent, for God to spare Sodom and Gomorrah
  
  Jesus as the Son of God through His crucifixion and resurrection establishes Himself as a "Mediator" for mankind with God, promising that anything asked of God in His name would be granted any prayer prayed through His Holiness would be heard by God and answered according to God's Will.
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree, Ask anything in my name, no one can come to the Father except through Me,
  I believe that prayer is invoking God's Mercy through his son's sacrifices.
  Prayer is humbling ourselves before our creator, seeking his will not ours.
  If you think prayer is something, try fasting and praying, through sacrafice and self denial we can change the furture as proven in whole communities Repenting and dressing sack cloth in the bible, and God saw their sacrafice and was moved with Mercy.
  People with greed and self servce don't understand the complications of loving Jesus and wanting to commune wth him in prayer.conversation, its LOVE people, Love for Our Creator.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's the great thing about personal beliefs. No one has to take yours seriously.
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  graceomalleyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  People approach prayer differently, it's very personal. For me, the relationship aspect is the most important, a conversation, a tuning in to God, focusing my attention. I agree with those who say it changes the person more than it changes God, though like many Christians I have had experiences of things happening in my life that I asked for in prayer.
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  kimberlyslyricsposted 13 years agoin reply to this
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  memoretonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Prayer is more than asking God for something. It is communcating with Him, listening to Him. By doing this, just like with any other relationships, we get to know God and how much He loves us and what His will is and so much more. Therefore we build up a relationship with God, experienceing all there is to experience and learn about Him. This will increase our faith and trust in Him. We can learn so much not just about God but about ourselves too, just by talking and listening to Him. This has been my experience, especially in difficult times, where I learnt all about what God could do and that all His promises were true, I learnt that I could rely on Him and thus it increased my faith and trust in Him. So, that is why I pray and also because there are many scriptues where God tells me to pray and tells me how to pray. Also In my experience, God always answers prayers, He says Yes, No or Wait.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sure that you can tell that same story to the starving children of the world and they will "eat it up."
  
  Not much choice considering that's all your god has given them to eat; empty words.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  God the Father allowed His Own Son to suffer horrendous pain on our behalf. This is the extreme that God has done for our futures. He has given everything for us, yet it never seems to be enough for us. This generation is quite a spoiled and unappreciative one....possessive of a mentality in which one simply demands and stomps his/her feet when the demand is not met.
  This world belongs to satan...for now, that is. And man has free will to influence and to improve or to destroy. And surely, God has used countless missionaries world wide to bring healing, food, shelter, water and comfort to the world. Could the Lord chose to simply wave His Almighty hand and completely wipe out all pain and suffering? Sure. But in His wisdom He refrains. One day, however, every tear will be dried when Jesus rules the world. But this "utopia" cannot and will never result while man shares his throne with the devil. God will not force Himself on us. We have thrown Him out of our schools, out of our governments. If there is pain and great suffering, what do we expect? Why is it that man is so greatly blessed with the capabilities of actually feeding the world and yet chooses not to? God has supplied everything we need yet man's selfish preoccupation with control and suppression has interfered with God's desire to bless the world. We will be held accountable for what we have done and for that which we have chosen not to do. In our pride, we hold God accountable while releasing ourselves from the burden or responsibility to give unto those in need. How hypocritical and self serving we have become. We judge God by a different set of standards, higher ones, than those to which we hold ourselves accountable.
  It reminds me of my father....he demands the respect which he refuses to give. He will never receive that which he demands because his judgments are one sided and unjust.
  In short, our selfishness and need for control has blocked the attempts God has made to provide for the world. For example, the United States had been sending millions of dollars consistently to Arafat, the prince of terrorism, to help the poverty stricken people of his country. But his people remained stricken in immeasurable poverty. Any guesses why? Because this self serving man pocketed the money instead, feeding his personal bank account and that of his wife's, who spent thousands monthly living in France.
  God supplies but man scatters....and then refuses responsibility.
  It sounds to me as if you are looking for a miracle...for God to drop manna from Heaven on the poor the way He did for the Israelites. That might be nice but that is not the way He desires to bless His creation. If man will descend the throne he has erected for himself and make God his God, there is nothing the world would lack.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Amen.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't aware that gods could suffer pain. How does that work, exactly?
  
  Okay, so he did something for us 2000 years ago. What has done for us recently?
  
  Are you referring to the starving who have nothing?
  
  Yes, just as missionaries have brought genocide to many peoples, having wiped them out in the process.
  
  Ah, so the starving who die daily are all part of your gods wisdom. Interesting. Others have claimed that he allows those who starve to death because he has a plan.
  
  As it should be.
  
  Simple, believers pray for things to happen rather than actually thinking and acting for themselves.
  
  Sure, blame it all on men. And, when things are going peachy, god did it.
  
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Can I ask what your contribution has been to the poor? You seem to focus on this so it must be very important to you. Have you given everything you can possibly give to help those poor starving children of whom you refer? Just how much have you personally sacrificed for these children you say you care so much about? Be honest.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why are you presenting a red herring and strawman argument? What does any of that have to do with your gods refusal to feed the starving?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've already told you that your argument is an understandable one but it is one for which I have no answer (other than the ones I've already made in several posts.) Even I wish God would make more of a "dent" where certain things are concerned. But I do trust that He knows what He's doing. I also have seen man interfere with God's plan.
  But what I am posing here to you right now is likewise an understandable question.
  What is your contribution to the poor? You criticize God so harshly for not completely ending poverty. In fact, your criticism extends so far as to deny His very existence because you don't feel He is doing His job.
  With this said, this issue of starving children must be very important to you. I would like to know just how important it is.
  What are you willing to sacrifice to benefit the welfare of starving children all over the world?
  It is a fair question that merits an honest response.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, there is an answer, a very simple answer.
  
  The starved dead believed so, too.
  
  Yes, like curing diseases and working on ailments like cancer.
  
  Entirely irrelevant to the subject matter of prayer. Please stick to the topic and stop providing red herrings.
  
  There would be no need to criticize your god if believers stopped praising him for things he allegedly provides them.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, I will not force you to devulge your contribution or lack thereof to the hungry. But I can only conclude from your persistent denial to answer my very easy and understandable question that you do NOT contribute to the poor and needy, thereby making you a hypocrite.
  If I am incorrect in my assessment, then please correct me.
  But it does appear that you are not doing everything in your power to feed the starving children. You therefore fall short of your own high standards, the very standards by which you harshly judge God, your Creator.
  You expect God to do EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO CURE HUNGER...and because hunger continues to exist, you judge God to have failed in His assignment.
  But by YOUR OWN STANDARDS, unless you are doing EVERYTHING IN YOUR POWER to cure hunger, you too fall short of meeting the standard by which you have made so many criticisms of God.
  I don't think people who live in glass houses should throw stones.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Even after I asked you to stick with the subject matter, you continue to go off topic and provide strawman arguments.
  
  You are free to peruse this forum and find ample threads and posts in which believers claim their gods provided for them, directly. Hence, we judge your god for providing for them but not for the starving. Understand?
  
  Then, don't ever state that gods provide anything for anyone, because clearly they don't. And if you continue to do so, then it is you who are the hypocrite.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The fact that God is imaginary seems the only right answer.
  
  THINK! In other words, God does not feed the starving children, because He is imaginary...or Allah does not feed the starving children because He is imaginary...or Rumpelstiltskin...
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, my friend, I know that God has blessed the world with more than enough food to feed us all. It is man who has interferred with the distribution of food. This is a fact that I learned in college many years ago. It is man, not God, who has denied the hungry.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What college would teach such nonsense?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I agree, God does not deny the hungry, because He is only a figment of your imagination. Just as Hobbits have not denied the hungry...Why? because they are imaginary.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Here is a link for you to check out regarding Jesus' resurrection.
  http://www.av1611.org/resur.html
  There are many to be found if you search for them on the internet.
  ONe point they make in this particular article is if Jesus did not resurrect, the Romans, who did not want Jesus to resurrect, would surely have had his body on display for all to see. But this was not the case as He indeed rose.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  NOTE: Dead people do not come back to life after being dead for three days. What part of that don't you understand? It doesn't matter how much researched nonsense you present to validate your position. This is childish nonsense.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is based on nothing but conjecture. This is religious propoganda for the blind and fearful sheeple.
  
  In the 21st century it is bizarre that adults actually propose childish nonsense as this as actual TRUTH! Shameful!
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe God gave all the other people in the world a chance to be gracious, and charitable in feeding them. So many just have not replied to the call turning their heads in another direction, bying that extra non essential item, when tht 20 or 50 dollars would feed a lot of hungry people all ove rhte world. do to their own greed and selfishness.
  If everyone shared there would not be one hungry person in the world. It is our fault not his, our selfishness and own self satifaction that we crave do to the evil holds and influences on us. Its easier htan sacrificing. Shame on all of us.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are absolutely correct in your assessment. I learned in college that we have enough food to feed the whole world. The reason we do not feed the world is due to man's selfishness...
  God supplies, man denies, basically.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Let me guess, a bible college?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ha ha.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Definitely bible belt indoctrination at an early age, in your case. Absolutely no hope for you to ever escape such an early childhood brainwashing. My sincere condolences.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Yeah, Hopeless.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I have heard the rationale that god is putting his believers to the test of faith by allowing tens of thousands of innocent children to starve to death daily. Such a merciful and gracious god.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The bible does make the point that prayer can cause God to "relent" or change His mind. But then, He knew He would when we made that prayer to Him.
  But God admonishes us to pray. Does He know what we need before we ask for it? Of course He does, He's God! Yes, God is a compassionate God, but more than our tears, God is MOVED by our FAITH. The bible tells us that "you have not because you ask not". Simply sitting back and expecting God to do something on your behalf won't always cut it. Jesus wants us to come to Him in prayer because it demonstrates our faith. God wants us to be on fire for Him, not luke warm. How can we say we have a relationship with the Almighty if we never converse with Him? Our relationship with God is not unlike any other relationship; there is no such thing as "quality" time without there being "quantity". Think about it...you are close to someone because you spend time with him/her. How close can you truly be to the Lord if you spend no time in prayer? And if not close, then only lukewarm. And if only lukewarm, then how can you approach Him, prayerfully, in faith, believing?
  Faith moves God to miracles on your behalf. Remember, "you have not because you ask not". James 4:2
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, your god already knows the starving children are starving and that they indeed want some food to eat.
  
  Hopefully, someone will tell those children to turn up the heat.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know it doesn't make sense...it hurts me to think of these children suffering. But then I ask myself, "how can I help?" If God has placed a pain in your heart for such as these, it could be that He is calling you to do your part. It's so easy for us to sit back and look at the negativities of this world and blame God, and yet what do WE do to change things? Are we as guilty of that which we blame God for? I know that there is no excuse not to help....maybe this is God's way of helping those children...by placing a pain in our hearts for these little ones who are hurting. To recognize the need but to do nothing about it makes us guilty as heck. And I know from personal experience that even the poorest in America can afford SOMEthing that would greatly benefit these hurting people. If we are going to judge God harshly, it would be hypocritical not to hold ourselves just as accountable.
  Anywho, if God has put that pain in your heart for the plight of another, it could be that it is YOU by whom He wishes to bless and to help these people.God is actively using people all over the world to help others. IN this way, we cannot say He is doing nothing. And it might just be that YOU could be one of those special people He desires to use.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What does your gods inability to feed his own creations have to do with us? Why was your god able to feed multitudes before but now ignores the prayers of his flock?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is a fair question. Have you tried asking Him? You might be surprised by the answer. If you do chose to confront Him on this, look for His reply in different ways...and when He does reply, it will be obvious to you. He will speak to you through the words of others...but be sure not to dismiss His message to you. He uses the bible, people, feelings, sudden inspirations and thoughts, ideas that you have no idea where they came from....even billboards that you've seen daily but for no apparent reason, suddenly strike you. You may even hear His voice.
  Beelzedad.....ASK God for an answer. See what He reveals to you.
  It may sound crazy to you, but try it and see what happens. You may come back with more of an answer than any of us here has tried to supply.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Asking your god is rather pointless as he never answers back. I see his answers in his works, or more precisely, his lack of works.
  
  Tens of thousands of dead children each day is only too obvious of a reply.
  
  Actually, I find it quite insane.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Or he could end up just a psychotic madman, who thinks he hears the voice of some imaginary deity everywhere.
  
  What's the difference?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Imaginary? What evidence do you have to support this opinion?
  Make it compelling my friend.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Because this God fits everything that an imaginary character fits.
  
  Noun 1. imaginary being - a creature of the imagination; a person that exists only in legends or myths or fiction.
  
  Since no one, except those suffering from delusion, has seen God, it holds no more weight than a Hobbit or unicorn.
  
  Just who are you trying to fool, but yourself?
  
  WHERE IS THIS GOD?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good question. The bible says that God is omnipresent, meaning everywhere.
  I can tell you this however...I am well educated and fully sane.
  And I have heard from God from time to time, when I've needed Him most and even when I haven't been in great need. He reveals things to those who walk with Him. The evidence is always in the manifestation of what He has revealed.
  For instance, several years ago I was worrying over being able to feed my kids. We had very, very little food left and no money for milk. At the time, my youngest was only a baby and needed that milk.
  While a thousand thoughts raced around my mind, the Holy Spirit gently interjected, "You will have what you need by 6:00 tonight". (It was about 1:30 in the afternnoon.) At that point, I apologized for doubting Him and then thanked Him for His future provision.
  By 5:54 that night, a knock was heard at our front door. I opened the door to see a woman from church standing there with two bags of food and a twenty dollar bill. I asked her, "how did you know we needed this?" Her reply? "The HOly Spirit told me".
  I have many stories just like this one. Every one of them simply cannot be explained away as mere "coincidence". God is actively participating in our lives, it cannot be denied. This woman had NO idea that we needed for nor money for milk. AND YET, she "just happened" to show up carrying BOTH. God spoke to her and told her what we needed. He doesn't always work in this fashion, but this time He did. And perhaps it was to demonstrate to you and others reading this post just how very real and involved He is.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  I really hate to see kids suffer. It makes hard times even more tragic.
  
  See this is the problem that Beelzedad has been trying to make you aware of. Why would God feed your children, but allow these poor starving children in third world coutries to starve? WHY? Why would God pick you, when someone else is in greater need?
  
  After all this grand-standing, God still can't feed the poor starving children in Africa. What a partial despot.
  
  Yeah, just for you...because you are "special" This is not impressive. God needs to help those poor starving children...not just people like you. That's foolish.
  
  This only demonstrates how utterly absurd your beliefs are.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  YOu are mistaken. It's not just me. My circumstance was no more special than any other hungry family's who was living in poverty. But like I said before, God has supplied the world with more than enough to feed itself. It is man's selfishness that has restricted this supply.
  When will man ever stop blaming God for what man alone is guilty of?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your answer is nonsense! Just as Getitrite stated, you were never in any danger of starving to death, but many children are. You should feel embarrassed to compare your troubles with those poor children. Yeah, we want to be just like you!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's strange that God seems to be able to break through man's restriction and get food to you, but He is a total wuss when it comes to easing man's selfishness and restrictions to get food to these desperately starving and dying children. Again, what makes you so special? You keep saying you are not, but if this same, God who is ALLOWING countless people to starve to death, intervenes in your life, then, you are absolutely special.
  
  When will delusional Christians stop crediting God for what man alone has accomplished?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, you stated, "Your answer is nonsense! Just as Getitrite stated, you were never in any danger of starving to death, but many children are. You should feel embarrassed to compare your troubles with those poor children. Yeah, we want to be just like you!"
  Randy, I am compelled to ask you....
  How do you know in what danger my children and I were in?
  By what "facts" do you make your statement?
  Your foolishness is overwhemingly evident.
  Your judgment is faulty.
  Your cruelty is unjustified.
  Your ignorance controls your judgment.
  You, sir, should be sorely humiliated.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How close to death from starvation were you? And why would you ask those of us who do not buy into your cruel imaginary god to do something your all powerful god refuses to do easily?
  
  You are the one claiming such an all powerful being exists, why would we mere mortals interfere in the way your god allows the poor children to cruelly suffer? He could merely wish them to be fed and he ignores them.
  
  Good luck convincing people with such poor reasoning.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  When will believers ever stop praising god for what men alone have achieved?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A real story of a Mother and her 11 year old daughter with their spirituality:
  
  Mom: Lucy, come and have your dinner!
  
  Lucy: Wait Mom, I haven't finished playing with Bobby.
  
  Mom: Not again Lucy, aren't you too old to have imaginary friends? Now come and have your dinner
  
  Lucy: Alright, but Bobby must also get his share.
  
  Mom: Bobby got killed in a car accident, he's already gone!
  
  Lucy: He died for me mom, and he has now risen from his death!
  
  Mom: That does it Lucy! This is getting way out of hand! Can you hear Bobby's voice? Can you see his body? No? So get over him already!
  
  Lucy: But Mom, I have a personal relationship with Bobby. Yesterday I asked Bobby to help me out with my test at school, and I really passed! You wouldn't understand.
  
  Mom: Enough Lucy!
  
  Lucy: So why can you have an imaginary friend and not me?
  
  Mom: What? I don't have an imaginary friend!
  
  Lucy: So who are you praying to everyday?
  
  Mom: That's Jesus you clever little.....
  
  Lucy: Can you hear Jesus' voice? Can you see his body? No? So get over him already!
  
  ~Cecille Schultheiss
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Haha too funny! Good points.
  
  Brings to mind a joke and it goes something like this.
  
  A young boy asked his Dad if he can buy him a car. To which the Dad replied no. The boy kept persisting throughout the day. His Dad kept saying no. Later the Dad after denying his son one more time he says... son why don't you cut your hair. To which his son replied, why Dad Jesus had long hair. The Dad then said, yeah and he walked every where he went too!
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And did Bobby have over 500 eye witnesses to his resurrection?
  Because Jesus sure did.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Who, exactly? What were their names? Where are they listed in historic documents? How do you know there were 500?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I know there were over 500 eyewitnesses to His resurrection because it states this fact in what could possibly be the world's oldest history book, the bible. And many of these witnesses had NOT been believers PRIOR to Jesus' death, so they had no reason to lie about it.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Funny, I don't recall any verses in the bible talking about how may eyewitnesses were there.
  
  So, where are the eyewitnesses words? Obviously, their words are somewhere in print, that is, if they had no reason to lie. How can you lie if you don't say anything?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to see the list of the 500 witnesses myself. I can't wait!
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  pylos26posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The best history sorce indicates there were less than a dozen people that alledgedly wittnessed such a resurrection.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, you have yet to produce the verses that support your claim. Where are they?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And this shows an intense gullibility. How bizarre.
  
  So how many resurrections have YOU witnessed?
  
  And based on reality, would you believe ME if I told you that I was Jesus, and I have returned for my faithful followers?
  
  Would you follow me, if 500 people that you didn't know, "confirmed" that they were witness to my resurrection?
  
  Would you take that chance, and not follow me, knowing you could be cast into the lake of fire?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are wise to be skeptical. There have been many false prophets proclaiming to be Christ. And there are false religions due to such "prophets". Personally, I would not believe you were Christ for a few reasons; 1. you deny the existence of God. 2. you deny the reliability of the infallible Word of God. 3. Christ is coming back but not in the manner by which you have presented your own presence on this forum. And this last point is LOADED.
  But many of those witnesses to Christ's resurrection were NOT prior believers. It was only due to having SEEN Christ, that they actually believed.
  Why do you doubt the reliability of the bible?
  Where did you learn history?
  Do you doubt the source of the history you were taught?
  Why or why not?
  Who was our first president? How do you know? Were you there? Know anyone who can personally testify?
  Just because the book's title is "American History" doesn't mean you know for sure that the content is reliable. And yet, we trust. Why? Because we've been taught to.
  We have documents with signatures that appear to be real....but how do we know such documents weren't contrived by some secret society only 100 years ago....falsifying signatures such as "Thomas Jefferson" and "George Washington"?
  Bottom line....people believe what they want to believe. You have no evidence that those signatures are valid and yet you believe them to be as such. I also believe they are real.
  With regard to the bible, we have archaeological evidence....a growing amount.
  We also have personal experience, such as the one I posted above about our need for groceries and milk...and "coincidentally" receiving what we needed.
  We have fulfilled prophecies as well.
  I will try to find more evidence supporting the fact of the resurrection for you to scrutinize. You do well to scrutinize. It will protect you from false prophets, from deception...just be careful not to allow it to blind you from the truth. Because the truth as well as deception is alive and well...and greets each one of us almost daily.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  1 Corinthians 15:6 states that there were 500 witnesses to Jesus' resurrection.
  You will need to research the validity of the bible to determine whether this is true.
  Some resources that might help you in this, should you decide to look for evidence instead of relying upon your ability to reason, might be a book by Josh MacDowel "Evidence that demands a verdict"...actually, this man is a lawyer and writes as such...it's not easy reading but the video he has by the same name is very informative.
  Also, the videos/books by Lee Stroble. "THe case for Christ".
  Both Lee stroble and Josh MacDowel were affirmed atheists.
  Lee, an investagative reporter and Josh, a lawyer used their educated abilities to uncover the truth in an effort to DISPROVE the bible. What they found was precisely the opposite.
  Check it out.
  Relying upon the limitations of one's personal reasoning capabilities alone to discern the truth will result in only failure. What is seemingly logical may in reality be foolishness.
  Like I tell my kids, before you pass judgment, get all the facts.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Love the final sentence! The problem is, we seem to disagree on exactly what the word "fact" means.
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't yo turn your heat down and send the savings to the children for food.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't you take your own adivce?
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You know, this is frustrating. And I"m sorry for my previous comment to you about "why don't you take your own adivce?" I was out of line.
  You are right. We need to do what we can to help.
  And my frustration is just this very point.
  I was trying to get some other individuals, with whom I am debating the existence of God here on this site, to simply tell me what they have done to help those starving children that they are blaming God for not feeding.
  The point I was trying to make is they are criticizing God for not feeding the children and yet what have THEY done to help these kids they supposedly care about?
  Because they refused to answer my question every time I posed it, I can only assume they do nothing.
  Again, I'm sorry for my harsh response to you...I had no business saying that to you. I was frustrated at the others for not being honest about the fact that they criticize God for the starvation that exists...and yet, they do nothing about it themselves. They are hypocrites. The standard by which they harshly judge God is not the standard by which they judge themselves...in essence, they live by a double standard.
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are forgiven. I need to do mre as well . If we all choose to do more there would be less starving kid in the world and in our own back yard. I have adopted 3 children and taken in a teen here and ther trying to help where i can. Its never enough but i do feel i have lived the Beatitudes by doing this. Yet i convict myself as well for buying non essentials instead of sending it whereit could do more. peerp presure ot fit in to have the latest. Whenyou are in corporate they look at you if you dont keep up.I couldnt and would not keep up so i didint fit in. So recently I left corporate and now am trying to hear Gods voice more and work for him. It is definately harder to swim upstream but gives you more peace of mind and it doesnt string you along getting in to the society eveyone is stamped to fit into. Anyway looking for other ways to help where i can. It is in the little things that come your way evryday and the choice we make at that time. we aren't perfect the flesh sees to tht. But when we love our maker, when we choose worngly, by not taking the right road, at hthat moment for what ever reason, we can feel it , repent and do better the next itme we are asked. we do have to remember, the flesh is weak, and not beat our selves up to much , but instead try to listen more closely and stregnthen ourselves by getting coser to him , our Lord. God Bless You all for even discussing it. but remember,if you are not welocme in tht house shake the dust off and go to the next, where you might be invited to sit down and enjoy the company. Less time debating, more time in fellowship. I send a blessing to all you who love the lord from the Holy Spirit who lives in me and for all those especially our famous Hubber debater -I send in his Holy Name of Jesus, through his deepest wound of his shoulder where he carried the burden of our sins on the cross and the Miracles of Santo de Christo de Limpias from the crusiifx in Spain, a Miracle Healing and the Joy of His Salvation this hour into your heart. You only need to accept to see if He-the Christ is real. A challenge for you! You will need to repeat " Lord I accept the Miracle Healing and by this may I come to know for sure of your existance, in your Holy name Jesus Christ, save me. well did you say it Beelzedad and anyothers who are truly curious, try it then talk to us again but be honest and do it first.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, 65....you are correct....if they won't receive you, then shake the dust from your shoes and move on. That's what I've done with this particular blog. I've said what needed to be said, defended what needed to be defended....perhaps overstayed my welcome...but did so because I care about the eternal futures of these people here. But they refused the truth. The Lord brought to mind the very passage you mentioned here with regard to shaking the dust from one's shoe....and so, my work here is done.
  The only remaining piece of work for me concerning this site is to continue to pray for those with whom I had discussion....the Lord has brought them to this site for a reason....quite honestly, I answered their question regarding why children are starving....God supplies, but man denies. We have more than enough to feed the world, but man's greed keeps the hungry in their place. According to the bible, God allows man his free will because God is still giving them time to repent...if God were to pass His judgment right now on those who destroy the surplus, they would surely perish.....eternally so. So in His wisdom He refrains....but it will not be for much longer.
  A time is coming very soon....perhaps a year....perhaps two at the most (in my opinion...based upon the prophetic as contained in the bible...I dont know the exact time but from prophetic clues, it is coming soon), when the most terrible time in man's history on earth will occur. The bible refers to such a time as the Tribulation....it will begin with a phoney peace treaty between Israel and the antiChrist. (Scoffers, you will do your scoffing at this, I am sure. It is your choice.) But mark my words, this peace treaty WILL occur and when it does it will mark the beginning of the seven year tribulation. The first three and a half years will not be that bad. In fact, the ruler of the world (the antiChrist) will be gaining the praise and approval of the world during this time. People will come to regard this man as their savior because he will be an expert in foreign relations and will save the world's economic crisis. The world will cling to this false messiah and at one point, about the mid point of this seven year tribulation, they will even come to worship this man as their messiah.
  It is my understanding that this man will be charasmatic and handsome...the world will love this counterfeit Christ. It is at the half way point, that the "Great Tribulation" begins...where the world will be forced into taking the mark of the beast (666) in order to buy or sell. Christians will be decapitated. (In fact, there are internment camps set up all across the United States at this very time....the one in Montana actually is equipped with 100,000 guillotines. Funny, when in the history of the United States have we EVER made us of guillotines? Bible prophecy is slowly being fulfilled. These internment camps, aka: concentration camps, are as yet unoccupied.) The world will have its one world govt, one world currency and one world religion in which it worships the antiChrist.
  At the end of this seven year Tribulation, Christ returns. He will destroy those who took the mark of the beast and throw the devil and his cronies into the lake of fire. This will mark the end of the battle of Armageddon, in which every nation will gather at the valley of Megiddo to destroy Israel.
  But again, God will save Israel.
  I say, "again" because during the six day war (1967), some arabs were about to attack a small group of Israeli soldiers....but the arabs drew back....they later reported having seen very tall angels behind the Israeli army. They thought Abraham had come to defeat them.
  "Again" also because very soon, we will see the battle of Gog and Magog...in which Russia and Iran come against Israel in what was to have been a surprise attack...but their attack will prove to be futile as God supernaturally defends Israel, destroying both Russian and Iranian armies.
  Half way through the Tribulation, the antiChrist will erect a statue of himself in the third Jewish temple, soon to be rebuilt. It is then that he demands the world praise him as God. He will stop the sacrifices that the Jews had reinstated within the temple, as they had done thousands of years before. But when all this happens, the Jews will flee to Petra, a city made of stone....there, the Lord will supernaturally protect His people from the forces of the antiChrist.
  I tell you these things that you who do not believe now might believe when it happens. I have given you much information....read it, remember it, and when it happens, know that it was told to you BEFORE it happened. When you realize this truth, grab a bible, pray for protection and cling to Jesus. You may die for your faith but at least you will live forever in Heaven.
  ANywho, may the Lord bless any who take the time to read this....may you seek the Lord while He may be found...if you hear His voice calling you, do not harden your hearts against Him...this may be your final opportunity to recieve Him and to live eternally in peace. Everyone has an eternity....you must choose where you will spend yours.
  Anyone who does not appreciate the truth I have written here, it is your choice. You do not have to accept what i have written. I am not forcing you to read this post. Do not badger me with your vulgarities, I am not interested. If you do not agree, then simply ignore my post. My post will not appear in your email because I have not burdened you with it. Do not burden me with any of your vulgar responses.
  And to you, 65jrl, thank you for your forgiveness....when I first wrote my response to you, I had misunderstood what you meant and I responded inappropriately...and I was frustrated by other responses as well at that point. 65jrl, my friend, I will see you in heaven one day.....God bless, God protect and God guide you in His will to reach the nations with His love.
  My work is done.
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thank you and yes I believe, as you, all that you have taken the time to disclose, and that the time is indeed very close. For God has given His sons and daughter the gifts of prophecy and dreams, and in studying all this for a period of 20 years, I too, have been blessed. If you don’t mind I shall like copy your response to forward to my face book page, that more shall come to know the future at hand and begin to prepare for it. Your sister in Christ, and yes, hope to see you in heaven. Pray for me. I was in such tears at your response, knowing it comes as a conformation of what I have been disclosing for many years to others of who would listen, and preparing my family for the near future, which is not always easy.
  
  Continue to spread the word of hope and warnings, there are a remnant left who have not heard it as of yet. Go and may the Lord our brother protect you from evil, may he strengthen you in character, may he fill you with the love of His and His Father’s Holy Ghost, may He give you Boldness to continue disclosing to all, and an increased love for the souls of the world.
  
  So with your permission may I copy and paste. Love the 777.
  In JMJ and in love 65jrl.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, definitely, 65! That's so interesting that you want to post it to your facebook...because after having written it, that's exactly what I did last night! Isn't that funny? We are on the same page, my friend. And after posting it to facebook, I then comprised an email and sent it to many who are not saved but who believe in God's existence.
  Yes, if the Holy Spirit moves you to use the material, then please use it. There are certain parts that I don't believe came from my own thoughts...I believe God lead me to write certain portions of it. And given this, it is not mine to keep but to share.
  You shed tears of confirmation? Wow! This is awesome! There has been much confirmation occuring lately....yes, it all brings tears to the hearts of Christ's followers. We know the horrors to come and do not want others to experience in them....but sadly, too many reject the truth of God's inerrant Word.
  Take good care, 65
  Love, Linda
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There probably isn't a place on the planet that has not heard of Jesus. So, you can stop evangelizing now as all it seems to do is cause conflict, wars and genocide.
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So did you say the prayer given, or not? Try it if you want to know the truth. Prayers back it up.It is very powerful. But if you want to continue to be ignorant to the power of teh true God and his followers then refrain but don't continue to post, as you would have proof if you did recite it.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but I don't see any gods, only their followers. Prayers do nothing but provide solace to the individual. They are as powerful as the fluttering of a butterfly wing, yet they cause immense and total damage around the world.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why don't believers stop praising and thanking their gods for providing them their good fortunes while others starve to death?
  
  In another thread, believers here are praising god for all that he did for someones surgery. Science created the surgical procedures and the doctors performed the surgery, but it was all clearly superficial in the process because god did it.
  
  Not only does the praising contradict the plight of the starving, it degrades and insults science and the doctors.
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libby101aposted 13 years ago
In the Bible there was a guy who was on his death bed...and because he served God so faithfully he ask God to add, I believe it was 7 more years to his life, and God granted his prayer!

I believe people who are faithful to God can pray and make changes! He said ask and ye shall receive! Does it mean we can change God's mind... not really.. it means there are two paths a person can take... ask God and travel that path... or don't ask God and let the path take you where it leads... it's free will... but I believe if we pray faithfully he moves in our lives! However, I believe a person has to be faithful to God and live by his commandments for him to move in your life!
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Note the number of times you said "I believe" here. Rationally, you should accept the following facts: 1) God knows what is best for you and 2) if God has a plan with your life then praying is not going to make any difference. If you pray you are actually saying: God, I see the following things happening in my life but I actually want something else - here's a hint on what I want. Really, is God going to act after that?
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree! I believe is what it means.. "I believe"! Because I do believe! I believe prayer works...when it's God's will... I don't think things we ask for are always in his will! But if we don't ask we will not receive! That is my belief and it is biblical. It is your choice and right to believe whatever you want! From the Bible, it is possible! He said you don't have because you haven't ask.... of course if you don't believe in the Bible then that is another story altogether!
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are free to believe whatever you want but you didn't really reply to what I said after that. It just makes no sense, that is what I'm trying to say. It makes no sense that by praying you can ask God to do something and it will happen - God already knows whether or not action needs to be taken and your prayer is superfluous.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree in a way...sort of. If you mean God already knows the outcome then I will agree with that... he knows what we will do, or say, or ask ahead of time. I do think that God knows what we will ask for... and his will is not always what we want...
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would even go as far in saying that God will take action whenever necessary and that prayer is not needed. God knows what he wants for your life. God does not need help from us to determine what we should get in our life.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will agree with that!
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  simeonvisser, You are right. God is aware of what we need or want before we even ask him. Prayer is communication with God, and we need to communicate with him by asking him to intervene. Prayer is very much needed. It is biblical.
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  65jrlposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I believe that the flesh is weak and we are praying for the good of the soul, our flesh gets in the way. All the more reason to strengthen our souls with prayer and communion with God and his Son in order to fight the temptations and will of the flesh. Its the soul who yearns for God not the flesh, the flesh will dye off bu tthe soul is eternal and trying to be united with the creator that is the purpose to go home eventually to be reunited with he the great I am, the Father in Heaven, that is why he sent his only begotten son, to help us get our souls back through his suffering. All the holy people and seers of the world in a lot of religions can't be all wrong.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hi, Libby....you know, I think I know who you might be referring to, unless there was another who asked God to extend his life. But you might be referring to King Hezikiah (spelling/??)...and so God extended his life an extra 15 years.
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TahoeDocposted 13 years ago
I was just going to ask then "What about God's plan"? that so many people speak of? And what about the children whose parents and churches and people around the world prayed for them and they died horrible, torturous deaths at the hands of predators anyway?

I just can't make sense of God has a plan vs. pray and change God's plan?

Or do different people subscribe to one or the other of these but not both?
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  From what I have seen, people subscribe to both but they don't reason through on the ramifications of both perspectives. They believe there is a plan with their lives but they also believe they can change it by praying - that doesn't go very well together but that is what is believed.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think many people believe differently about this. The Bible says to ask in prayer... it says to have faith and believe... I think sometimes it's just that persons time to go... and sometimes there is a much bigger plan than we know! Not every prayer gets answered and there are many, many reasons for this. For one, as I stated above...God may have a much bigger plan for something...and no prayer in the world can change that... and sometimes God is waiting on us to ask him for him to move and chagne things! However, there are times when prayers do work! It's not that God itsn't listening... he just sometimes says no to that prayer because he has something else in plan. Maybe it's just time for that person to go... we cannot always understand or know everything... but God does and this is why some think he doesn't answer!
  
  But through the Bible it is apparent that prayer does work! Hezzakiah (spelled wrong) had seven years added to his life by prayer... he was on his death bed and he ask God and God answered! God does show mercy at times!
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If a prayer seems answered, God is praised.
  If a prayer does not get answered, then people come up with all kinds of reasons why not: it was not part of God's plan for your life, it was your sinful human nature that wished to have it, there is a better outcome further down the road, etc, etc.
  
  Every time a prayer is answered you can be happy and every time a prayer is not answered, you can reason it away and keep believing that God is involved in your life.
  
  The above is indistinguishable from a reality in which prayers are not heard by any divine being at all. Sometimes a prayer gets "answered", sometimes it does not. If I pray for a good exam result and I study hard for it, did God really help me pass the exam? Also, people don't pray to get the best score for the exam, they just want to pass. And when they do, they fail to recognize their own effort they put into it.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think "exams" are not on God's radar! That is something we can completely control ourselves... we can either study or not! People pray for strange things and wonder why God turns a blind eye... an exam is not something somebody should pray about!
  
  I think on the contrary... people love to accuse God of "not answering" prayers! Those who don't want to believe find every excuse in the world to make him look less powerful or that he doesn't exist!
  
  If I smoke my entire life then ask God to take away the cancer then that is crazy! People have to suffere the consequences of their choices!
  
  Some people do suffer when it is not their fault and they ask god for help and he may or may not give what they pray for... but it may be in his will for them to die. Everyone has an appointed time to die.
  
  It is a person's choice to believe or not! That's the beauty of it.. freewill!
  
  Just because someone doesn't believe in prayer doesn't mean it isn't real! However, it takes belief and faith for God to answer prayers! He isn't going to answer someone who doesn't even believe in his power to start with!
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So if I understand correctly I must believe strongly that God can change my life through prayer, then I should pray and then - somtimes - God decides to answer my prayer?
  
  Note that you are coming up with several reasons why a prayer was not answered:
  
  1) You did not believe strongly enough in God's power to change your life.
  2) Whatever you prayed was not in his will.
  3) You cannot run away from the consequences of your own actions.
  
  These reasons alone are enough to explain every prayer that was not answered. If I am skeptical about the whole idea that prayer influences our lives then this is certainly not going to help. You wish to claim that prayer is a direct way to communicate with God but you also defend yourself for every time when "it does not work".
  
  I'm not saying prayer is the same as placing an order in a restaurant ("I want this") but people who believe in prayer strongly favor the "hits" and would rather not discuss the "misses" when, e.g., a loved one dies from a disease.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The same can be said about you. You see every reason to "not" believe in it! You believe God doesn't answer prayers... so be it... that is your belief!
  
  I'm just going by what the Bible says...as I stated before!
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think one sentence that I said earlier really sums up my viewpoint: the above is indistinguishable from a reality in which prayers are not heard by any divine being at all.
  
  For me it's not so much about reasons why prayers are not answered. It is just that I don't see evidence that helps me distinguish between a reality in which prayers are sometimes answered and a reality in which there is nobody to answer the prayers at all.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus said, "...apart from Me you can do NOTHING". John 15:5
  But WITH Christ, we can do ALL things. PHil 4:13
  We also know that "every good and perfect gift is from above..." James 1:17
  We do well because God, in His wisdom, has given us talents and abilities.
  There are so many things we do not understand in this life. So many things that do not make sense to us. But we are not God. It is ridiculous for us to think that we could possibly understand everything God knows. Like God says, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways, My ways....For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts".
  Isaiah 55:8-9
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ah, so the starving die every day and god does nothing about it because of reasons well beyond our understanding.
  
  You're right, that doesn't make any sense and it is ridiculous for me to even try.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The wisdom of man is a foolish thing when we compair it to the wisdom of God. How can it compair to the wisdom of God? We think so highly of our intellect because indeed we are intelligent. But we must walk humbly before the Lord. We are not His equal. He is worthy of our reverence. He is God, Almighty. He is omniscient, we are not. What appears to be logical may not be as such in God's sight. Who are we to judge God's wisdom? Who are we to criticize His judgments? Who are we that He would even consider us?
  There are so many things we do not understand in this life. So many things that do not make sense to us. But we are not God. It is ridiculous for us to think that we could possibly understand everything God knows. Like God says, "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways, My ways....For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts".
  Isaiah 55:8-9
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then, we should let those children starve to death and not criticize or question your gods judgment for not feeding them. I'm sure that is somehow logical to your god, if you say so.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Reminds me of an old George Carlin Schtick. But to answer your question; yes you can change God's mind. Two examples: He spared Lot when Abraham badgered the angels with the questions on the way to Sodom and Gomorah. He spared Ninevah when the city repented. I've never heard of a prayer chain that produced a miracle, but I doubt it would be on the evening news.
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But how can God's mind be changed? Seriously, that means even God Almighty can have moments where at one point he thinks differently about something than before. Changing your mind is only possible when you recognize flaws or errors in your previous viewpoint. But that, by definition, is impossible because God knows everything! Any viewpoint that God may have is already perfect from the start.
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  tmbridgelandposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are limiting God to only one plan, or one possible route to his plan. You may have a goal, but there can be many different ways to achieve that goal. Few Christians believe God always answers 'Yes' to their prayers. Sometimes His answer is 'No' or "Later'.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Exacly, and sometimes God's delay is NOT God's denial. There are reasons we are made to wait. From personal experience, it's usually because He is working on instilling in us a greater faith in His faithfulness to deliver us. I think this is why He often waits till what seems to be the "last minute"!
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, that's why he doesn't feed the starving, he's far too busy "working on instilling in us a greater faith in his faithfulness to deliver us."
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  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He has worked a long a$$ time in instilling fear in me and I got fed up with being afraid. Isn't that abuse?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Absolutely, childhood religious indoctrination IS abuse.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know. I don't think it's changing His mind so much as granting mercy, because he was asked to. But I can see why some would object to the idea.
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  libby101aposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it is "God changing his mind" as much as it's us changing our thoughts or ways!
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  simeonvisserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok, we seem to be reaching consensus that God's mind cannot really be changed but that it is really our minds and views that change.
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Randy Godwinposted 13 years ago
Hmmm. So a supreme being needs to be asked by mortals to do something he already knows he will do or not? And he has known this forever? What's the point? Your fate was ordained long before your ancestors were born or the universe was created.

Yep, sounds perfectly reasonable to me if the god is bored.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
God has a plan, He will not answer Your prayer if what you are asking for goes against his plan.
Sometimes he answers your prayer request when you are sincere, simply to strengthen the little faith that you do have.
I think that anytime that our prayers are not in conflict with the overall plan , they are likely to be answered.

BUT ... Lets assume you pray for a car,
The next day... You might find yourself with a cotton sack strapped over your shoulder with a field full of cotton that needs picked. And if you pick fast enough and long enough, you can buy a car.
But if you had not prayed for the car, you might not have received the opportunity to pick cotton.
Your prayer is sometimes answered in ways that you do not expect.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Death by starvation for tens of thousands of children daily must be part of gods plan.
  
  All praise god!!!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We have been over this how many times now ??
  More than once I assure you.
  
  What part of balance do you not understand?
  
  If we have 1,000,000 child births each year, what happens if no one ever to dies?
  
  Think about it before you post some sort of nonsense.
  
  It is estimated that sense the beginning of recorded time, the earths’ population has a growth rate of just over 1%.
  Regardless of plagues, War, droughts and famines; a 1 % growth rate per year.
  That number has grown in the 20th century due to modern medicine, people live longer.
  More children die.
  
  So it would seem that in order to save a child, us old folks need to turn loose of our quest of extended mortality.
  
  So now you know how to contribute to saving the children.
  Can we count on your support?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Enough times to know that Christians do little more than fabricate stories to support their beliefs in prayer.
  
  Don't bother praying because it's gods plan to murder children?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You are responding to a post that had nothing to do with praying.
  I made a statement and ask a question.
  
  Are you capable of not sidesteping the post and answering the question?
  
  CAN WE COUNT ON YOUR SUPPORT ?
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  TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Seems like God could have planned a little better ahead then, to prevent such suffering. If I was a benevolent, loving, merciful, all-knowing, all-powerful creator, I think I would have done more to make sure that those beings I created and profess to love would not suffer so.
  
  Pretty lucky to not be one of those poor children.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What could have been changed?
  It is our overindulgences that has caused all of the problems in society.
  
  Yep, we could have been created without the ability to satisfy our every pleasure.
  
  Then the world would be perfect.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Correction; religious indulgences.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Satisfying our every pleasure or starving children. Yep, good call, god! Great foresight by a merciful deity. This should teach those sinful kids a lesson. I hope they thank god for their position in life.
  
  But wait! All we have to do is pray and they will be fed to satisfaction! I wonder why no one has ever prayed for those poor children to have food? LOL!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I will pray for them right after I come back from Disneyland, knowing that God made it possible for my kids and me to be so fortunate. THANK YOU, JESUS!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You accuse believers of not taking responsibility for their actins.
  
  What are you doing.
  
  You are casting your responsibility upon a deity that you don't even believe in.
  
  Talk about hypocritical.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stop claiming he's real and I'll stop blaming him for making children suffer. Deal? And the abortion question you ignored?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why do you expect for me to know which one God would perfer?
  
  I think (??) he would perfer for humans to use common sense! And learn rom our mistakes.
  
  Now would you answer my question ?
  
  Simply ! What would happen if no one ever died?
  And we continue to give birth to 1,000,000 new lifes each year?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  We would invent birth control. But wait, we can't trust science because they lie about evolution for some unknown reason. Gee, I don't have a clue, Jerami!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So what bad actions are the children guilty of?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You just can't answer a question can Ya
  
  Children aren't being punished, We are.
  We get to watch something that we choose to do nothing about.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Unless you've ever been a starving child I cannot see how you would know about them feeling punished or not. I'll bet you telling them they aren't being punished by starvation would make them feel much better. Send them a note and tell them god said so. See, problem solved! LOL!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you say so, AND, You are absolved from all responsability.
  
  Do you feel better now?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, we would still have delusional people talking about how great and good their imaginary god is. And education seems to have little effect on delusion in the bible belt. Perhaps if we prayed for christians to be realistic. But he's never answered this prayer no more than he has the starving children problem. Back to square one, I suppose.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Notice that believers continue to believe that the plight of others is always about them.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, that was a really good point, Jerami. And it's also one that I have made several times in this forum. Those who are so harshly judging God for not providing need to judge themselves by the same standard they hold God accountable to. To do otherwise, consititutes hypocrisy and arrogance. In my life I've witnessed that those who are most critical are usually the same ones who do absolutely nothing to change that which they are most critical about.
  Christians have answered God's call to aid the suffering by leaps and bounds. Some dedicate their whole lives to ministry of one form or another, including but not limited to missionary work where countless millions are fed, clothed, given clean water, small homes constructed, etc... Actually, the Catholic church has been recorded as being the most charitable of all Christian organizations. And I know of many Christians who are hurting financially who give their last penny...out of their dire need. to help another who is hurting.
  I wish the non Christian segments of society would be as concerned about saving the lives of children, both born and unborn, as they are about saving the lives of whales.
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  TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If God is all powerful then anything and everything could be changed, right? Any course of action could have been set in motion and could be changed at any time. To me, that's what it would mean to be all powerful.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It just seems to me that the only thing wrong with the plan As-Is .... is US ... And if this problem were solved ? We wouldn't like that situation any better.
  
  We can't come up with a better scenario. Can we?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course we can. Do away with delusion concerning deities and instead use the money wasted to feed the children. Imagine how many millions of dollars are wasted merely paying for church upkeep and for paying god's messengers. Voila, problem solved!
  
  But then we wouldn't have starving children to point to as proof of god's greatness. Then you would not like this at all!
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your statement concerning the wealth of the church being misapprpriated.
  But the same can be said for all rich people.
  
  But when we can point to someone else that is "MORE" guilty than ourselves, we feel better don't we?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course we do. Especially if those people claim to be better than those who do not believe in an all powerful being with nothing better to do than cause misery to his pets. Similar to humans pitting dogs against each other but in a much crueler manner.
  
  My hope is the other adult gods will catch your obviously adolescent god doing this and switch his immature ass. I cannot believe this is the best god in the business.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Whether there is a God or not actuality has nothing to do with the subject matter of my post.
  
  Keeping religion out of it changes the message very, very little.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which post? You have more than one on this thread, don't you?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Which post? Just about any of them. Take your pick.
  
  Most of lifes' problems and answers can be applied to just about anything.
  
  Religion has its problems, and those faults could be applied to just about any group.
  
  Gotta go. later.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, but an ALL-POWERFUL God could. And there is no real argument as to why He hasn't done this...that makes more sense than "He is imaginary". Problem solved.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  True, with all the Christians praying to Jesus to send their kids to Disneyland instead of feeding those children, you wouldn't stand a chance. Jesus is just too darned busy.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So why should an omniscient God allow Himself to be affected by these statistics?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You absolutely refuse to answer a question don'tcha
  
  If we have 1,000,000 child births each year, what happens if no one ever to dies?
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Gee Jerami, if you feel that way, why not sacrifice one of your kids to Jesus to save a starving child. It's always easy to say such things when it's not your kids who are starving to death, eh Jerami?
  
  Jesus still needs to fill his "soul" coffers with little kiddies souls.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's not the question, Jerami!
  
  You can't just come into TahoeDoc's forum, and highjack it, then start blowing nonsensical smokescreens that don't even support your position.
  
  You tend to do this alot.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No one said they should not die eventually, just not from hunger. But I suppose you are pleased by this type of population control. What a humanitarian you are, Jerami!
  
  I wonder what is worse for a baby, abortion or suffering death by starvation? What do you think god prefers, Jerami?
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Beelzedad, Your broken record is on again?? That's ok, I will simply scroll past you.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, you didn't scroll past, did you? You spent the time responding as per your usual insightful and intelligent way.
  
  Of course, tens of thousands will die today, again, despite anyone's prayers as it is gods plan for them to die.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right, Beelzedad...too many are dying from starvation. I know you really care about these people by how angry you are at God for not helping them. Was wondering what YOU did today to help even one of them? And what do you plan to do tomorrow? I hope you're not one of those, "do as I say, not as I do" type of individuals. Hypocrisy...isn't that what you accuse God of?
  If you are holding God to a high standard that demands evidence of HIs caring for the poor in the form of action, then it would be a double standard for you to refrain from holding yourself from the same standard.
  So, given this, how are you doing? Have you succeeded in upholding the standard by which you believe is righteous?
  If you are above reproach, then continue to cast your stones.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, you continue to detract from the subject matter. This has absolutely nothing to do with me and everything to do with praise of believers and their gods.
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  Linda777posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Listen, I don't know whether this passage from Scripture will help to explain God's position on why suffering continues to exist, but here it is.
  "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering toward us, nto willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." According to this passage (and some others), God allows evil because if He were to step in and stop the sin of the world, in essence if He were to pass judgment right now, there would be many who would go to hell. God is patiently waiting and attempting to work in the heart of every man/woman. The reason suffering exists on earth is not due to God but due to man. There is much sin in the world and because of this, much evil persists. We must do our part...do not be part of those who sit back and change the station every time a commercial comes on asking you to feed the hungry. Pick up your phone and give that twenty dollars a month. It won't break you.
  Yes, God could step in and completely stop all of it. But if He were to do this, this would require judgment and for too many, condemnation. He is working behind the scenes to reach as many hearts as will receive Him before He finally does pass judgment.
  But, there is coming a day when God will wipe away every tear and no child will go to bed hungry. This day is fast approaching.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The exact same rationale can be used to support the reason joy and happiness exists in the world, too. Do you agree?
  
  Yes, I'm sure your religious indoctrination has brainwashed you into believing such nonsense, but let's try and stick to the present and to reality, thanks.
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sdy53posted 13 years ago
Since religious discussions are so popular, what's the point of prayer?

This one is easy enough to refute. Many people are private about their communications with God. They would rather do some one-on-one with our benevolent creator rather than make it a group discussion.
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  TahoeDocposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What are you refuting? Do you mean answer? I don't quite understand.
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Composer2005posted 13 years ago
Jeramiposted 5 hours ago
God has a plan, He will not answer Your prayer if what you are asking for goes against his plan.

Composer responds:

That simply is in direct contradiction to what the bible story book states -

e.g. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. (John 14:13-14) KJV story book

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. (John 15:7) KJV story book

Failure to have prayers answered only demonstrates the BS and failed christian ideology
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TahoeDocposted 13 years ago
I've asked this question of many religious people because I always wonder if someone has a good answer. There is no straightforward answer where a God is both omniscient and able to be swayed by the begging of its subjects, no matter how many.

If he has a plan and will not answer your prayer unless it goes along with his "already" plan, then he isn't really answering, right, even if he takes a circuitous route to give you the product of your prayer (like the car example)?

Ms. Dee, Thanks for your reply. The book sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how many Christians would subscribe to the notion that God changes his mind. Doesn't that go against the notion that God is omniscient and already "knows" or has planned what will happen? That's what can't be reconciled without really making a liberal interpretation of what God is. I guess that's part of the answer to my question, though, huh? Depends on your interpretation of God.

Some of you have given honest and thoughtful answers, and I thank you. The answers are very different one from the other, though, so to me this question of whether praying changes God's course, still remains a mystery and open to interpretation by as many people as ponder the question.

I also still don't understand the prayer chain idea, asking large numbers of people to pray (on Facebook or in church or whatever). Does God respond better to the prayer if many of his subjects agree that the prayer is worthwhile. Does that mean God doesn't know what the most worthy prayers are? Should it matter how many people are praying for one event?
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getitriteposted 13 years ago
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, you don't fool me. I saw that on the internet too. That was talking about atheist praying to science for a good argument against religion.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why pray for something we already have? DOH!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, that's true I suppose, if you're an atheist Homer. It is fun to listen to you prattle on though.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Agnostic actually, Marge! Wish I could reciprocate the compliment!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Aww, that hurt. Oh, sorry. It's against my religion to lie. It didn't really.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You must be Buddhist then. Christians don't have a law which prevents them from doing so.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmmm, that's interesting. You should probably spread the word. A lot of people have that wrong.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If you're not a christian I have no reason to disbelieve your answer.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So, it sounds like you are saying you believe all Christians to be liers. I couldn't believe that anymore than I would agree with the statement that all atheists are unable to participate in a reasonable discussion. That would just be generalizing. And not very nice. I'm sure I must have read more into your statement then was your intent.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Christians don't have a law which prevents then from doing so."
  
  Are you saying Christians never tell lies? If so, I'm going to have to call you a liar on that one!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well, there are speed limits and we all break the law where those are concerned. Do Christians lie? Probably as much as the next guy. Is there a law against it? Sure. Are Christians perfect? Any that claim they are, are highly suspect. Was I lying previously? No. Do you believe me? Do I care? Oh, sorry. That was two questions in a row. Never mind that last one.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Does this mean the quoted statement was correct?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I think someone is taking advantage of the way these threads work. I didn't see the option to reply to you randy, so I had to hit reply on my last post. Christians are loosely affiliated. I think the only thing I should feel able to state unequivicably is that they all put their faith in Christ. I personally believe the commandment talking about not bearing false witness is a prohibition on lying, but you know as well as I do that every one has an opinion. Maybe some figure if they don't lie in court they're living by the later of the law. Not my place to judge them. I've got problems enough of my own. But, you seem to be problem free enough to sit in judgement. Good for you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I suppose that's the closest I'm going to get to a yes or no answer from you. Either my statement was true or false. And I claimed no special ability to always tell the truth anywhere in my posts. My gods give me no reason to apologize for them.
  
  And my gods are responsible for your having trouble quoting my posts. They do not like you very much, so watch it. Now, let's see your god do something cool! Go!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What do you man, close as you'll get? There is a law... I'm not God...so it isn't up to me to judge if someone is following it as I determine would be correctly. To me, it is clear that it says, Thou Shalt Not Lie. Sheesh. If you have a god that has time enough to make the reply option disappear at the bottom of a post, I'm impressed, I just thought it was me learning how to navigate this place. But I would strongly suggest you don't discuss your beliefs in the forums. People are kind of irrational in their arguments against a higher being. Black and white is always gray to them. I'm cool with it though. Multiple gods. Sounds like a busy religion.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So my gods are irrational now? Would you like my gods to put your quote ability back? I am not vengeful and neither are my gods. Now, apologize to them.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well,i have to know a little about them first because if they're bad gods I might want to insult them anyway. Which would be more fun than falling abjectedly to the ground. And for all I know, you don't really have any gods which would mean I was apologizing to you. Methinks you're having fun at my expense.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, honest! My gods are at least as powerful as your guy. Let's see yours do something now. You can pray if you want to. My guys don't threaten me with eternal damnation if I don't, so I'll understand.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You speak with forked tongue rattlesnake. You no have powerful deity. Anyway I don't believe in eternal damnation in the sense you're possibly speaking of. burning someone for an eternity over mistakes made over a human lifetime doesn't make a lot of sense. I would say I'd pray for you, but if that one was answered an eternity in heaven with you might seem like hell for me after a while. LOL. I'm kidding. I like to be made fun of if it isn't done in an insulting way.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, I am kidding of course. But you see how silly my gods appeared to you? "Irrational", was the word you used, I think. Well, yours appears the very same to me. That's as honest as I can be about it. I know I'm not a Christian, but I can still tell the truth despite the fact.
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Randy telling the truth? Uh-huh, I'm still waiting for that story from 36 years ago!! lol
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My gods Moe, Larry, and Curly have made a new person of me. Since I found Stoogism I am so much more satisfied with my life. Unlike other religions, we are not required to pass judgment on other human beings if they don't become Stoogists.
  
  We also don't blame another entity of being responsible for humans mistakes. If they are basically good folks, they get a free ride when they die. If not, they have to pray, sing songs of praise, and listen to Christians talk about how great their god is. Meanwhile, Stoogists will be fishing and enjoying death like it's supposed to be.
  
  Woop, woop ,woop,woop, woop, my brethern!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So...does Stoogism tell you to keep promises?? I WANNA HEAR THE STORY!!! waaaaannnhhhh
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What? Give you a hint to my future best-seller? You mus be joshin' me, honey chile!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh. If I used the term irrational with respect to your belief,or lack thereof, I apologize. I personally think it's great to disagree. I've learned a lot from people I can't for the life of me fathom where they are coming from. I might have learned something from you. And I do see where you're coming from. if you have seen no evidence of anything outside of this plane of existence, of course you have no reason to believe, nor would you find it reasonable for someone else to. It's like people that scoff at ufos. They can't wrap their heads around the possibility that there is life outside of our planet and we have no proof, so of course the idea of a spaceship is ridiculous and so is anyone who believes it is possible.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  UfO's are much easier to accept than gods, IMO!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But what if there is a super-intelligent alien that controls the earth? Couldn't that "supreme being" be what we think of as God?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If they were all knowing and omnipotent, sure!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know. it's the same on my droid. Anyhoo, I figured that was just their way of saying, 'shut up already, you talk too much.' Enjoyed the exchange. Don't be too hard on me in other forums. I'm new here.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do unto others and likewise-The only commandment in Stoogism. Welcome to HubPages!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Woohoo! We agree on something. Man, there should be a prize our something.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  See how easy it is! If everyone didn't try to share their own delusions with everyone else, there would be no problem with having religious beliefs.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Arghh. You're killing me here. We've been in a forum posted as religious. Going back and forth for seven hours. Please, please...puhleese tell me that was a general statement and not directed at me.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You cannot see who I am quoting either? My last post was to Habee! MOE! Quit messin around! That Moe. he's such a kidder!
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know. If I hit the 'reply to this' button my post comes up, but your answer makes a while lot more sense than your post. So, I guess Ocham's razor saves you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Stoogism at its finest, that's all it is, my child.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you clicking on the reply on my post or yours? To quote me, click reply on my post.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't. There's no reply button on yours. I stopped seeing reply buttons about twelve posts ago. That's why I thought there was something fishy. It's happened before. I'll be in a discussion and all of a sudden somebody says something really reply worthy and there's no reply button. I just decided this time to hit the first reply button I come to when i scroll back up the line
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dunno! Tried restarting your computer? My son is an IT, but not me!
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, because we KNOW that prayers to your imaginary God absolutely works. And we don't even need science to observe it. All we need is faith.
  
  But wouldn't it be nice if God proved the skeptics wrong by feeding the starving children. Funny how this prayer thing works, but NOT work at the same time.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You believe that prayers to an imaginary god work? Interesting.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, and His name is Revo. It would seem that you would know that Revo is the one and only God, and those that serve any other God will be dealt with in the most cruel and brutal way when they die. Sorry but unless you repent and accept Revo as your personal saviour you will probably be doomed. Stop worshipping your false God, and turn to Revo now. He is waiting with open arms, because he died at birth, so that you can live. He died while coming through the birth canal,that's why I wear a birth canal around my neck.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. A new god to talk about. Cool.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
getitrite wrote ..

You can't just come into TahoeDoc's forum, and highjack it, then start blowing nonsensical smokescreens that don't even support your position.

You tend to do this alot.
- - -

What is your definition of a hypocrit ?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You can't stop, can you Jerami?
  
  Another smokescreen, I'm pretty sure will lead to nothing.
  
  The debate question is clear: WHAT'S THE POINT OF PRAYER? Stop blowing smokescreens, and using absurd analogies that confuse and derail the premise...and just prove that your position is valid. So far it appears that your position has collapsed.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
getitrite wrote ...
The debate question is clear: WHAT'S THE POINT OF PRAYER? Stop blowing smokescreens, and using absurd analogies that confuse and derail the premise...and just prove that your position is valid. So far it appears that your position has collapsed.
- - - - - -

And the thread lead to the question of why prayers are not being answered concerning the deaths of little children.

You just do not like being confronted with a question that you do not want to answer.
You sir are the one blowing smoke, as usual.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sure! But your question is not leading to any rational explanation of your premise. You are only positing this question so that you can later blame MAN for the shortcomings of your ALL-Powerful God. Or do you really think you are clever enough to trick us?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Can anything so easily and quickly seen be a trick?
  
  You just didn't want to answer the question that was presented.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The answers to your question is obvious? But you don't need to ask such an inane question to get to the truth of the matter.
  
  Instead of confronting the object of prayer(GOD)you attack His creation(MAN)and put the onus
  
  The truth is that...you have nothing but a belief in an imaginary God, that doesn't answer prayers because He doesn't exist.
  
  Everything you say to explain it away only seems absurd, and if you were not so indoctrinated and fearful, you would see just how absurd your apologetic stance is.
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Rastamermaidposted 13 years ago
This is just my philosophy for my life.

We pray for many things,we may pray for things,actions,clarity,health ton a stuff.

We also pray for understanding,maybe what you're praying for isn't for you,but at the time you want it so bad you pray and still nothing.So you pray to understand and to deal with what you see as a disappointment,but as times goes on you understand it was for the best.

We pray for the sick because I believe there is power in prayer and the more people prayer for your health and hitting God's ears in abundance.

Why do we pray,because we have faith.Most prayers are for others and if your praying from the heart for others more than yourself,that's beautiful in itself

The point of prayer is excercising your belief in your faith and your God.Acknowledging that there is someone greater than yourself that's running this.

Just my view and everybody should have one.

Respect

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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Jerami wrote:
It just seems to me that the only thing wrong with the plan As-Is .... is US ... And if this problem were solved ? We wouldn't like that situation any better.

We can't come up with a better scenario. Can we?
- - - - - - -

getitrite wrote ...
No, but an ALL-POWERFUL God could. And there is no real argument as to why He hasn't done this...that makes more sense than "He is imaginary". Problem solved.

- - - - - -

So you propose for God to fix the problem which is US ?

And what do you suggest ? Another flood ? or Fire ?
ot a frontal lobotomy for us all ?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
getitrite wrote ...
The truth is that...you have nothing but a belief in an imaginary God, that doesn't answer prayers because He doesn't exist.

- - - - -

And you are still dancing around the May Pole.

Just answer the question please.

What would life on earth be like without Death being a part of it, when 1,ooo,ooo new lifes come into it each and every year?
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
As I understand it prayer can be used in two ways. It can be used in talking to God which is to say it is not always asking God for something and it can be used to ask God for something.

God can change his mind, he has done it several times in biblical history. Below is just one example:

New Living Translation (©2007)
Genesis 18:26
And the LORD replied, "If I find fifty righteous people in Sodom, I will spare the entire city
for their sake."
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying god didn't already know how many there were? Hmm. His prediction about what will happen to Satan may be in question, if that is true.
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  Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He knew, Lot didn't/couldn't admit the level that sin had infected his world. God said at the start exactly what was done in the end. Lot just blew his chance for a headstart outta Dodge. Too bad about his wife. She could have used the extra lead time!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you kidding me! Salt was worth much more money than women in those days. Lot was shrewd!
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  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey, I prayed that he would let my dad have a jam session with John Lennon, George Harrison, Jimi Hendrix and Morrison when he died. You guys think he heard me? hmmmmmm Just sayin'
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
God did know

But as funny as it sounds he's given man a chance to prove him wrong.
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stargazersensiposted 13 years ago
Ello, I think the purpose of prayer is to channel your own thoughts and reveal to yourself what you want and need in your life. Moreover it connects you with God and builds a relationship, since you are talking to him. I do not believe anything we do will change God's mind not because he doesn't care I just don't think God works that way, he knows everything. I think the real purpose of prayer is to build trust and that relationship and somehow he will reveal himself.
JAH BLESS!
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Composer2005posted 13 years ago
IF so called christians believe their god is an all loving god that always gets it right first time every time, then by praying for it to change the outcome it already set in place demonstrates those who pray simply do not trust nor believe their god's first and best intentions!
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Have you thought that through God's divine plan he actually wants you to pray for things to go differently? Otherwise how would one's faith be increased if the power of God was never manifested in their lives?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  A god would tell them, of course. They talk to people, people say!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Yea it's kinda like having ben invited out for diner, you are sitting at the table. ... ... ...... ... ...

... ... ...... ... ... ? ... ... ...... ... Is it OK to ask for something ? tellum what ya want.

Prayer is kinda like that SORTA but not quite .
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting anecdote.
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Composer2005posted 13 years ago
82Onusonusposted 5 hours ago in reply to this
Have you thought that through God's divine plan he actually wants you to pray for things to go differently?

Composer responds: Ok let's take this suggestion to its practical use -

I have a paraplegic friend.

Imagine he is your friend also OR else if you don't like that then pick any family relation or friend you know personally that is suffering a terminal or debilitating disease!

You say your god wants you to pray for things to go differently?

Ok so you (allegedly wanting the best for your friend / fellow man and to demonstrate the ' love ' and power of your god) prays for this paraplegic man to be healed.

Can you let us know when you start your prayer according to e.g. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. (John 14:13-14) KJV story book

The promise of success is already a given!

I'll give any of you so called christians / genuine story book jesus believers 24 hours to have prayed and my paraplegic friend healed and physically restored (Walking, running unaided and no dependency on a wheelchair or others to assist him to walk etc.).

I'll let you know in 24 hours how you went! LOL!

82Onusonusposted 5 hours ago in reply to this
Otherwise how would one's faith be increased if the power of God was never manifested in their lives?

Composer responds: Let's see if your hypothesis works for you if in 24 hours your prayers have been denied / your god failed. LOL!

It is now 2:40 PM Western Australian Time.

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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Composer2005, God won't let me heal your friend. He wants you to pray for his well being.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do [it]. (John 14:13-14) KJV story book

- - - - - - - -

ME
I do not understand why some people believe that everything that Jesus spoke, that Jesus was speaking to everyone.
Jesus was speaking to whom he was speaking to.

If you tell your wife that you will satisfy her every request, does that include every request from that lady living across the street also?

In the verse that is posted above, who was Jesus talking to?

He was looking his disciples in the face when he said; anything that YOU ask in my name will be granted.
He wasn't saying this to everyone in the world.
That would create kayos. One person wanting the river to be moved over here, and another person wanting it over there.

There are many instances where Jesus was in a private conversation, he said things that he would not have said in front of a crowd.
Everyone says things to one person that is true; but is not true if said to someone else.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  More contradictory arguments to defend your irrational beliefs?
  
  According to your religious tome - everything jesus was supposed to have said was said to some one else. Therefore none of it applies to you and is meaningless word salad.
  
  This why none of you have to actually follow the bible? You just gotta tell others what to do?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No - I will continue to try and educate you, despite the veiled personal insults. They do not bother me because I know you have been taught not to develop ethics and morals.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I have not made a veiled personal insult Jerami. I merely stated a fact. Sorry you cannot tell the difference.
  
  How is this a personal insult?:
  
  Jesus supposedly said everything he said to some one else - therefore it was not said to you - therefore it does not apply to you. Therefore you are using contradictory reasoning in order to defend your irrational beliefs.
  
  I am sure there are subjects you are qualified to educate me about, but I strongly doubt morals and ethics are one of those subjects.
  
  Still - bearing false witness is not a sin for you - so accusing me of doing something i did not do is not a problem for you - is it?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Do you not recognize your own words.
  I read them and they seemed so appopriate to be mirrored back atcha.
  
  Therefore you are using contradictory reasoning in order to defend your irrational beliefs.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I recognized them Jerami. They were directed at some one who made a veiled personal insult to me. I did not do that to you therefore you are accusing me of something I did not do.
  
  I understand that it is easier for you to accuse me of doing something I am not doing than actually address the point I made. This tells me my point was on target.
  
  Care to address the point I made - or would you just rather fight?
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
In the original post that you made to my comment. It was unclear if you actually had a question (?) or what exactly is the point that you were attempting to make ?
Is it that everyone else is wrong and if we would only let you teach us, the world would be a better place ? Don't think so.

It seems that everyone has the same agenda, but pushing different merchandise, Using the same tactics.
Everyone wants to be the professor.
This is what causes conflict.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No Jerami - it is not. What causes the conflict is people pushing an irrational religion and subsequently fighting about it when others tell you how irrational it is.
  
  The point I made - which you skilfully avoided - was that Jesus supposedly spoke everything he said to people other than yourself - therefore your analysis that you "do not understand why some people believe that everything that Jesus spoke, that Jesus was speaking to everyone," means that none of what Jesus was reported to have said applies to anyone.
  
  Which means you are using a contradiction to defend your irrational beliefs.
  
  I don't want to be the professor. Whatever gave you that idea? Seriously - the very second people stop saying there is an Invisible Super Being judging me is the very second I stop saying it is irrational nonsense. The very second.
  
  Most believers will not do that. Hence the fighting. After you.
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  My friend Mark; The answer to Your question was part of my statement.
  
  When Jesus was speaking to the general public; this was made known, and does apply to everyone.
  
  Example of a private conversation; Jesus told one of his disciples to go to the sea shore and catch a fish, in its mouth will be some money ...
  
  In that instance, because Jesus didn't say this to the general public, I can not expect to find money in the mouth of a fish.
  
  That message applied only to that person that Jesus was speaking to, cause it was a private conversation.
  
  There are many instances of PRIVATE conversations, and public announcements. We should be able to know the difference.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was speaking to illiterate goatherders and bronze age peasants. Why would this apply to me? Or you?
  
  The rational answer would be - it does not. Therefore nothing he said is applicable to us and you are simply defending your irrational belief system.
  
  In your scenario - what is the minimum number of people present that this would apply to? Where do you draw the line? 20? 3? 1? See? This is where the fighting starts because you are saying you know best. You want to tell us what is applicable. You want to be the professor.
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  aka-djposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's right.
  Now, go home and do a 1000 word essay on the subject.
  
  I will grade it, and you just might graduate.
  Not looking good looking at your attitude, young man!
  
  Profesor DJ
  
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  Julie2posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am so gonna fail because of my bitc#-a-tude!
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Mark Knowles wrote ..
Jesus was speaking to illiterate goatherders and bronze age peasants. Why would this apply to me? Or you?

= = = = =

ME
I was an uneducated six year old when my teacher told me that 2 + 2 = 4. I sense learned a bit of Algebra, Geometry, and trig.
One thing that I found , is that 2 + 2 = 4 still applies.

=========================================
Mark Knowles wrote ..
Why would this apply to me? Or you?
The rational answer would be - it does not. Therefore nothing he said is applicable to us

- - - - - - -
ME
When you were young and just hanging around listening to your Mom speaking to one of her friends, could you tell when the things she was saying applied to you and when it didn't?

Yes you could. BUT , If you were to write those things down on a piece of paper, whoever reads your story may have some difficulty following the true message that you were intending to share.
And if they do not even attempt to discern the difference, they are going to totally miss the point.
- - - - -
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly - which is why we have had 2,000 years of wars.
  
  So - logically, rationally - there is something wrong - and the answer is not that YOU are the only one that knows what the true message is.
  
  Logically, rationally - would an omnipotent being use this clearly faulty delivery system?
  
  No - of course not.
  
  Which presents two obvious solutions to this dilemma. Neither of which you are prepared to accept.
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Daniel Carterposted 13 years ago
Changing God's mind is irrelevant. It's like trying to change the universe's mind.

WE create OUR lives to a very large extent, good or bad, tragic or happy. People pulling together to help create good in our or their life is empowerment. There isn't anything wrong with that. If that is consistent with what is good in the universe, it has nothing to do with changing God's mind. Prayer is a vehicle that can help ground, center and focus a person as long as it isn't a codependent prayer of "save me." We have to save ourselves, and prayers of gaining knowledge and strength can help focus and ground us with empowerment. Inviting people to participate can be a good thing.
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Jeramiposted 13 years ago
Logically, rationally - would an omnipotent being use this clearly faulty delivery system?

No - of course not.

Which presents two obvious solutions to this dilemma. Neither of which you are prepared to accept.

=====================================================

Are you absolutely sure that there are only TWO solutions?

Is it possible that there is yet another?
No; of course not, if there were you would know it, Right!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me.
  
  There are an infinite number of possible solutions. You believe heartily in one your preacher told you - but it makes no rational sense.
  
  We already agree it is impossible to get the message you think is encapsulated in it - and I assume you also agree that no omnipotent being would purposefully present the message in this fashion - unless of course - it intended thousands of years of warfare and willful ignorance.
  
  Two rational, reasonable solutions offer themselves. You do not accept them though. Why is that?
  
  Or would you care to offer another rational, reasonable solution other than the most simple ones I can offer you?
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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There are no simple answers to explain how we have come to be in the situation that we are in.
  
  Blame? Where do we put it? There is enough that everyone gets to carry their share.
  
  This situation that we are in could not have been accomplished without a group effort.
  
  We place way too much emphasis on this physical existence.
  We were all born with death as our destination.
  And we immediately begin marching toward it.
  
  Too many of us adulterate our souls attempting to put our mark in this world. This is VANITY .
  We were a soul before we were born into this world and we are soul after this physical body dies.
  
  This is the message of Christ.
  
  But as long as we are in this world, we can do with it as we please; To blame God for our irresponsibility, is just our vanity rearing its ugly head.
  
  I'm sure you will say that I have avoided your question;
  I think that the answer is there if you search.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You have indeed avoided by question. You added a lot of meaningless opinion about souls and completely avoided our discussion in order to defend your untenable beliefs.
  
  I never mentioned blame and the "message of christ" you just gave me is not what the message of christ in the bible says.
  
  SO - back to the discussion.
  
  As we agree this obviously faulty message delivery system would not have been used by an omnipotent being - unless it intended this confusion - what is a rational conclusion to draw?
  
  Unless of course you do not want to discuss it?
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Composer2005posted 13 years ago
The following example unambiguously proves that ALL & ANY true believer will manifest the following and it is NOT restricted to a select few -

These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;10 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and whatever poison they drink will not harm them;11 they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well.� (Mark. 16:17-18) NET story book

So no more typical self acclaimed christian BS excuses for your failures, you have been exposed as frauds, deceivers and pretend believers and your alleged faith, illegitimate, weak & wanting!

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  Jeramiposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Composer2005 wrote ...
  
  So no more typical self acclaimed christian BS excuses for your failures, you have been exposed as frauds, deceivers and pretend believers and your alleged faith, illegitimate, weak & wanting!
  ====================================================
  
  That would be true ... except ......
  
  Jesus said that "This generation shall not pass till all these things be fulfilled" but nobody will know which day it will be.
  
  The point being that from the time that Jesus was crucified until the "end of days" for that Hebrew Nation; The spirit of God was poured out, abundantly, upon those people in the Holy Land, .... AT THAT TIME.
  
  Then the times of the Gentiles was upon us. These have come and gone .... Now we are living in that season that Satan is given to gather together the kings of the earth to battle.
  Interpret this to mean what ever ya want to,
  That is what the scriptures are saying.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The spiritual gifts which are written of in the scriptures are not all given to one person or every person who believes, to some the gift of healing is given, to others it is given to speak in foreign tongues, to others it is given to know that Jesus is the Christ.
  I gotta go, я учосно галодная, и не хачу уходет из дома на пустое желудек.
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Composer2005posted 13 years ago
Composer2005 wrote ...

So no more typical self acclaimed christian BS excuses for your failures, you have been exposed as frauds, deceivers and pretend believers and your alleged faith, illegitimate, weak & wanting!
====================================================

As I already correctly stated your BS ideology fails you yet again as expected!

These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;10 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and whatever poison they drink will not harm them;11 they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well.? (Mark. 16:17-18) NET story book

What it does NOT say is what you corrupt it to say ' AT THAT TIME '

The statement applies to ANY that believe at ANY TIME then or in the future as long as you are a genuine believer!

You lost that argument so when you want to start a Thread about your alleged story book Satan, please do so and I'll correct you there also as you know I am here to help!

Nope!, this is what the story book text is saying -

These signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new languages;10 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands, and whatever poison they drink will not harm them;11 they will place their hands on the sick and they will be well.? (Mark. 16:17-18) NET story book

That is also reinforced by the following -

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; . . . . (John 14:12) KJV story book

Again it does NOT say your BS claim i.e. " He that believeth on me at the moment right now . . . . "

And yet again the story book refutes your claim and supports mine -

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1 Pet. 2:21 KJV story book

By your typical failures to manifest the properties and promises already given to a genuine story book jesus believer, you are indeed proven frauds and illegitimate jesus believers and your faith wanting.

Better luck next time with your Satan theories?

IF you wish to try your luck again with that Topic, please start the Thread and provide what evidence you think you have for that theory along with accurate references, story book versions etc?

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lcecil0582posted 13 years ago
Pray, for me, is a form of communion and communication with God. The key to hearing God seems that you need to be "still and quite before the Lord". Your mind and spirit must be in a state of humility, reverence and repentant even if we don't know what sins we have committed. Saying the Our Father Prayer, seems to me to clear the fog. Being patient before the Lord is a difficult thing to master, but once you are there and the communication begins, you should never end the communication, but be in a "constant state of prayer", because God wants to walk with you daily through your life and build a relationship with you. Limiting the time you spend with God only limits the help he brings to you life. You must ask for his help and guidance. . .No asking, not help. It's that simple, but in this highly technical world it is a tripping hazard for many. . .they just don't seem to be able to get past it. When you pray and commune with God, its as though you are entering into the Jewish temple where the Ark of the Covenant once sat. The majority of people in the world cannot even get their brain around that concept. Prayer and the interceding of the Holy Spirit is God's Secret Weapon and I just love watching him work on others and am amazed at the things he is capable of doing in my own life. You have to trust and have faith, even if you can't see where he is taking you or the results. I wish all Good Luck in this venture.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  For the starving, "God's Secret Weapon" is leading them to an early grave, with an agonizing and terrifying death as the result.
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  lcecil0582posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, sometimes I would agree. It is a sad thing to see someone go to their grave not ever knowing God. However, I have seen others who have know God and it is much different. We will all cross that barrier some day and knowing the exact time or circumstances is not for us to know. Interesting concept you say about leading you to an "early grave". I've heard it said before by others that we should find out the work God has us to do here and when completed, he will take you home. Maybe it is true, besides if your finished with the work, why would you ever want to stay. When compared to the richness God brings into your life with the world system, there is no comparison. I have a tendency to think that when you are ready to go, it will all come together and God will just take you; one minute your here and the next your not.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, it is much more than a concept, it is a fact. Tens of thousands of children die daily from starvation, yet your god does nothing to feed them. He must be far too busy trying to get people to "know" him.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  sorry, I had to post. Don't you think starvation of people is more the guilt of our society than a failure on the part of anything outside of this plane of existence? We could all do more than we do. Why is it God's fault?
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  This response is like a broken record. You believers just refuse to put any thought into this issue.
  
  Hence, you go right on giving God praise for everything good that happens, and blaming man for all the bad that happens.
  
  Why can't an all-powerful God just stop wicked man? Oh I forgot---FREE-WILL.
  
  Why not just blame man for the bad and good, and CHANCE for the acts that take place in natural disasters?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well gee getitrite, I do put thought into the issue. Prayers are wonderful, but they don't hold the power you atheists seem to attribute to them. if anyone had the power to pray away starvation and suffering they would be doing it as we post. I just find it odd that we don't place the blame where it belongs. On ourselves. It appears to be easier to lay the blame of all the troubles in this world on the fact that we can't move mountains with faith. Wish I could. Not going to happen. It doesn't mean prayer is useless.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So I guess God is NOT all-powerful, afer all. So why would anyone waste his/her life worshipping a wothless God, that is capabable of doing no more for us than we can do for ourselves?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Are you a child? Are any of us children? Its a ridiculous argument. Post when you have a point worthy of response and I'll post back.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry about being too wise. God put me to shame again, using his nonsense. God rules!
  
  1 Corinthians 1:27
  But God chose what the world considers nonsense to put wise people to shame. God chose what the world considers weak to put what is strong to shame.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Most certainly it is utterly useless. The fact is that believers right here have claimed their gods have moved mountains for them because they prayed for it. So....?
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thats just it man is to blame for everything that occurs.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No. Not for some natural disasters.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The question is, why is not your gods fault? If your god can deliver on prayers to send kids to Disneyland, why can't he deliver on some food?
  
  There are a few other threads here in which people are praying to god for their husbands to get jobs, and to miraculously solve their credit problems, and to do away with their evil ex-husbands.
  
  Why should your god do any of these things and not feed starving children?
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  oh, please excuse my ignorance. I thought the discussion was an extension of the forum question. To respond, to what I think I understand of the point you are trying to make; people are selfish. That is in our nature. Of course we will sometimes put our own interests first in prayer. I don't personally believe God would grant a selfish request. He's not a genie in a bottle. I do know that sometimes, in His mercy, he will intercede on a personal level. That does not include trips to the Magic Kingdom, or making your ex husband spontaneously combust. But we aren't here to play, and expect God to step in and handle the rest. It is our responsibility to each other to handle our problems.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Really? Then, how do you explain the fact that atheists do not pray for the same things as believers? Those believers will emphatically state it was their gods that provided.
  
  He won't feed the starving, either. Is that also a selfish request?
  
  Explain that, and then explain why he doesn't intercede with the starving?
  
  Which is exactly what non-believers do and believers do not.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually I would first need to see the proof that atheists, alone, are addressing the problems in this world. Not sure that's an accurate statement. Wanting God to solve the problems of this world on such a grand scale is noble of you. I would love to see it too. Do I know why we can't pray it to happen? No. Do I know why we don't try harder to work together to make it happen? No.
  And as to believers making claims that all they want is magically provided for, I would have to side with you. It would seem odd to weild such power and not use it for the greater good.
  If they have a god who would be so callous, it is not one I would worship.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  And yet, you do worship such a god, with no proof whatsoever.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Noooo. I do not worship such a God. Back to the apples are not all Macintosh apples argument. There are as many ways to perceive the nature of God as there are human brains on this planet. Just because I say I worship God, doesn't mean I perceive Him to be their way. Am I right? Maybe. But if my perception were to run that course I would have no choice but to rethink my allegiance. He is only worthy of that title, in my mind if he is Good. I guess he would still be some type of supreme bring otherwise, but I wouldn't call Him God.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But, you do.
  
  Really? How do you perceive something that clearly is not in front of you to perceive? The bible, you say?
  
  Well, if we were to go by the bible, which we obviously have to do in this regard, we find the contradiction there of what prayer is supposed to accomplish and the reality of prayer in the actions and claims of believers.
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  just_curiousposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Every time I get an email that you've responded to this post Little Orphan Annie starts singing in my head. I guess the sun wil come out when you get tired of needling me on this. Post the scriptures you reference in making this claim and I'll try to understand where you're coming from.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You might be glad to know that God is known to everyone then. It is only our own perceptions that might lead us to believe otherwise.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The starving is an effect of a cause we started in our own limitations. Our interference with others way of life is paying dividends that come in the form of being aware of the effect but not the cause.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then, we should pray to your god to fix it like he fixes everything else Christians claim. Done deal.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps not so done as we would like. Praying will have little or no effect because there are many (infinite) parts to the whole (God if you like). Perhaps if each of us were aware of the effect we have on the whole and make those inner changes it might fix it. Ah well... there is always hope.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Where did you get that one?
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Haha... you know?..... the "we are all energy" thing. We have had this discussion before about energy...but oh yes... thats right got to a stalemate!
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, just a very poor understanding of energy on your part.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're entitled to your opinion.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just as you're entitled to your misunderstandings.
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paarsurreyposted 13 years ago
Since religious discussions are so popular, what's the point of prayer

The prayer is the primary tool available to human beings to get closer to the Creator-God and know of Him.
reply report

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Since religious discussions are so popular, what's the point of prayer

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