"I'm Christian, Unless You're Gay"
anjegirl ~
Yikes! Did you just finish a book on 'The Real Historic Jesus' or 'The Lost Books Of The Bible' or something along those lines? The KJV is a very sound, accurate translation of the ancient texts . . . I understand (and I imagine most do) that Jesus of Nazareth never sat down with a pen and paper and 'wrote the Bible' but it is His (God's, 'they', Jesus and the Father, are one) word. There are no authentic 'lost books' and the text we have today is essentially the same the earliest churches had.Actually, I have been studying the bible and studying the original versions of the bible and I have been "interviewing" priests, pastors, rabbis and almost all the other people who teach from the King james version of the bible for the past forty years and I find it funny that I and millions of other scholars have reviewed and read the Lost books of the Bible and you say out of nowhere and with absolutely no backup for what you say that "there are no authentic lost books" and I suggest you tell that to all the people throughout history who have gotten theologian degrees in our country or any country other than the middle eastern countries that "there are no authentic lost books"---how bazaar of you-----and the "text" we have today is NOTHING like the original versions of the old and new testaments------ not even close and no one here is quoting from those manmade versions either and the KJV COULD NOT be close to the same as the "text" we have today-----due to the factual "rewrites" that I have explained in great detail and as I explained in a previous post I seldom send anyone to Wikipedia but in this case,some theologian/historian does explain in great detail and citing lots and lots of dates ALL the versions,translations, editorializings and opining that went before and leading up to the KJVersion of the bible and this wiki article does it as well if not better than it is taught and explained to all American students of theology of the bible and again does so in great detail----and no, mickey as I have been interviewing people on this subject again for forty years, most people DO BELIEVE and DO SAY that the KJV has quotes from God and Jesus and many do say that the two of them penned the original versions and it simply is not true---just like writers write their version of what they heard the president say today many writers wrote about what they heard Jesus say during the three years in which he lived in the public eye and yes many of us have seen God and Jesus in a state of apparition or during a trip through Heaven and I have experienced both, but none of us who have had thAt experience would ever bible thump---it goes against everything these two heavenly men represent to us all---it is irreverent not to know the truth
The proof of the Word of God being the Word of God comes through understanding given by God.
Searching for man-made proof and with doubt will certainly give you tons of what you found.
The revelations amazing men like George Muller had from reading it are the exact thing I'm talking about. And when I read it and pray I find things start making so much sense that no matter if 700 of people like you stated it wasn't the Word of God, I wouldn't believe it.
When God speaks to you it isn't hard to tell. And it is as obvious as my pulse that He speaks to me through my Bible.
God can't be proven or found. He reveals himself to those who look humbly.
You can do all the research you want, but God answers if you call in sincerety.
Matthew 7:7Did you read my original post?? I died---I went to Heaven---Jesus not God spoke to me and my guardian angels not God or Jesus have been guiding and speaking to me ever since----I studied the HISTORY of the writing of the KJVersion of the bible over forty years, I interviewed WITH a lot of doubt, many theologians in our country over forty years and learned that they all were taught that the KJversion of the bible is not gospel and they all know they are teaching a man-made version of the originals and realize it is absurd to preach from it and in my opinion are sinning every time they walk into a pulpit to preach from that version and MANY theologians have commited horrible sins in the presence of God while preaching to others not to do the same as they do but do what they say, and I believe that they will all pay dearly for having done so---and sorry, but I don't take advice from people who are far younger than I am like, ever----and if you feel God speaks to you from the bible then by all means keep reading but don't quote it as gospel because that is not possible if you know the history of it
lol, I wasn't giving you advice.
I was responding with my view.
I'll quote it as long as I live.
Truly mind boggling what believers will say. Please seek professional help.
anjegirl ~ what you advance is a very common and very popular belief, but you are simply mistaken. What many today call the 'lost books of the Bible' were never lost and never part of the Bible, they have always been around, always known of, and always recognized by the historic Christian faith as extra-biblical. Because modern skeptics and writers come to find out that, while they knew of 'The Gospel Of Matthew" and "The Gospel Of Luke", etc, from their upbringing, there is in fact a work called "The Gospel Of Thomas" and other texts of that era and pertain to religious matters, they imagine they have discovered something that unimaginative and spoon-fed Christians don't know about - there are 'lost books' not in our modern Bibles.
The problem with their 'discovery' is that we have long known of the great variety of extra-biblical works that portend to be written by other apostles and tell of other accounts of the life and teaching of Jesus, it's nothing new, they are not 'lost books of the Bible' - they are simply texts written, mostly by gnostics, that were never (as I said) part of the Bible and never lost. And the oft advanced notion that the Bible we have today (particularity the KJV, I suppose because it's been loved for so long by so many) has been altered and corrupted through the ages and is not at all as originally written, is simply demonstrably false.
We, of course, do not have extant the original manuscripts, but we do have very ancient copies and the text we have today just flatly is the same Bible those who were students of John and Peter and Paul, etc, had. I have, just now within my reach, volumes of letters and sermons and commentaries, etc, written by Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, etc, men who knew and learned from the apostles. Set aside the most ancient Bibles we have from the early church - just from the personal letters and sermons, etc, of these 1st century Christians we have enough quoted Scripture to compile the entire New Testament and nearly all of the Old Testament . . . and it is just the same as the Bible we have today.
You are simply wrong in your assertions. Whatever books you're reading or whatever you heard form those ethereal men, or whatever, you are falling for a very common and popular deception that Christians are just foolish and we can't trust the Bible and we don't really know who Jesus was, etc. You need to read some genuine scholarship, some authentic history - you need to read the Bible as it is, the revealed eternal truth of the one true God.No, you don't know what you are talking about and I don't take advice from strangers and you are wrong and I am not and I am and have been a Christian for almost four decades and got that from my trip to heaven and not from the KJversion of the bible---if you can just say "you are wrong and I am right" then so can all the rest of us---it is a book that seriously divides people and makes people think they know more than others---I have stated what I have seen and heard and learned in my life and you can do the same but to just tell anyone you are the authority on anything is sheer stupidity on every level and I am going to say my prayers to the God who does not have a KJversion of the bible and go to bed now---nite, nite
And another thing---you need to pay more attention to spelling and grammar when you opine because many things you say make no sense at all and until or unless you are ordained to speak for god, don't tell people what they need to do or that they are "wrong" because you are right---that is crazy on its face and you cannot tell me that my studying of history and the lost books that I studied are not real-- or that all the theologians that I interviewed were lying or imaginary because they would not agree with your theory and don't throw around big words when you cannot spell or punctuate a sentence properly
I quickly and easily acknowledge that my spelling is atrocious, but 'spell-check' seems to catch my shortcoming - what did I spell incorrectly? As for grammar and punctuation, I recognize that I over use ellipses and dashes, but, c'mon - you didn't even use one period in that whole, uh, phrase above . . . not even at the very end of it. And, what "big words" did I use?
I virtually dropped out of school by the 7th grade, I'm sure my writing skills are lacking - but I see nothing unsound in my reasoning or the argument I've presented here . . . again, I'm not saying my opinion should be counted more authoritative than your own, I'm only saying that the factual evidence of the reliability of the texts can be examined - you can say the text we have today differs from the ancient texts, but we can look at them and see that this is not an accurate assertion, you are mistaken (not because you disagree with me, but because you disagree with the examinable evidence).
As for "unless you are ordained to speak for god . . ." - I don't pretend to speak for God, no one is ordained to speak for God with a sense of divine, eternal authority. You are here offering your own view as am I, there's no need to get defensive or unkind . . . I'm not asserting myself as one who should be counted another man's conscious, no one should adopt my view or understanding as their own, however . . .
. . . as you put such stock in your years of study and the weight of scholarship of the ordained, why do you so instantly dismiss me, why not count me one of your interviews . . ? . . I've been a Christian and both studying and teaching over 40 years, I'm ordained in the Presbyterian Church In America, and I continue to research and study theology, history, and the divinely revealed eternal truth of God - I don't think my own understanding on these matters is worthy to be so easily discounted when you are setting forth your own experience and the ordained authority of others as supportive of your assertions.How rude that was of her. You're fine. She is clearly not in a good place.
Play nice children...play nice. :-)
Sooo Anjegirl...what is heaven like?
Can you give a quick discription?
What is Jesus Like?
Are the street sreally solid gold or is that a metaphore?
And all the jewels what is all that about?
And what type or classification of angels are assigned to you?
So will you write a revelation...you know like John who has also seen heaven?
I don't know...help a brother out?
anjegirl: Is that a joke? I felt I had to say something here because I don't believe my eyes. You do realize you have giant run-on sentences and you don't use paragraphs? Right? You are very rude and quite the hypocrite if what you wrote is how you felt.
MickeySr has organized and readable paragraphs. If he made a few mistakes, so what? Maybe you should look at your own writing before judging others and getting wildly off topic.{I didn't want to say anything myself, but . . . right?! Her sentence structure and very sparse punctuation make it quite a task to decipher a point in the midst of, as you say, her giant run-on sentences. And, that's fine, sharp minds and independent thinkers are worth such an effort if their writing skills are found wanting.
I, personally, would not make a point (particularly publicly) to decry someone's grammar or spelling shortcomings but would stick to the ideas being presented. - but when she steps away from the actual issue at-hand to fix our attention on another's weak writing skills, when her own are so glaringly off-putting yet everyone has held their tongue, it makes you wonder what prompted such a blunder}.And another thing . . . perhaps anytime you finish your remarks and come back later with "And another thing . . . " you ought to pause, reflect, and really consider if your 'other thing' is in fact a good idea to share. When i read her opening "And another thing" I was pretty sure she was going to go off-point and stumble into rude . . .
I think you have opened a can-o'worms here, anjegirl. If you are not careful, and dilute down your statements, then this thread will go on, and on, and on.
You can't know ALL THAT MUCH about the bible, surely. There is so much more to learn, always. Life is infinitely greater than the constrictions of a book.Ahh, but it's only just a book when founded on an assumption God didn't inspire the very words it contains.
Assume on Mr Comelately.I most certainly do assume that, Vector7. Each to their own. At the end of it all, there will be nothing to crow about.
Actually, I do know that much about the bible far more than Vector and all of you have been droning on for days about the same things over and over and I came here and told the truth and you probably should have noticed that I am not careful in my writings----I am truthful and I have found over the years that most people cannot handle the truth and I certainly did not need to come here and stir things up because again, the same few people have been going in circles for days about everything but the truth and I find it funny how in my absence many of you determined that because I speak the truth that I should be careful and that I must be in a terrible place and none of that is the truth----I am very liberated about the fact that I have been a sponge for the truth all my life and when "children were to be seen and not heard" I broke all the rules and asked lots of questions---as I have said I have studied the bible from every religious point of view and have spent countless hours interviewing clergy from every religion one can name and I just moved to the beach and started a new business in my semi-retirement days and continue to do much for the benefit of all mankind and with the grace that Jesus would have used and I am a very happy girl and none of your assumptions are valid and I now believe after reading all this dribble that none of you are interested in the truth but only in days on end of arguing about the untruths printed in the KJversion of the bible and strongly believe that any man as obsessed with this as Vector is have issues with being gay and I believe the one line we got in the KJversion of the bible about homosexuality came from just such a man----lots of straight men are engaging in homosexuality these days and every gay man in America knows it and never before has that happened and I think more of you need to ask yourselves why that is and argue about that for a few days---in any event, I am out, I don't have the kind of time for this nonsense that all of you have and I am sick of bible thumpers beating up people who are more like them than they want to admit over that book----christianity is greatly warped from the concept that I believe God and Jesus intended us to feel and has killed millions of people over the centuries and today so many gay people kill themselves because of people like Vector and if Jesus were in the room with him he would NOT be saying these things,believe that
Glad you didn't take my advice, anjegirl.
anjegirl ~ I make no assumptions about you. I came here and joined the discussion because I saw a post of yours, on the front page feed, announcing that anyone who believes the Bible is God's word is a fool and stupid and that you know better - my posts here make no assumptions about you and I'm not addressing the gay issue at all, I am only addressing your notion that all who see things differently than you do so because they are not as smart and not as interested in the truth as you are. Anjegirl, you regularly suggest that your view here is valid because you have studied for so long, talked with so many clergy, and are genuine in your interest to know the truth - but you too easily and instantly dismiss those who see things differently than you as being fools and not genuinely wanting to know and follow the truth . . . how can you learn, what course does your learning take, if you see others with differing ideas as fools for not already agreeing with what you believe?
Anjegirl, I am not a fool, God has given me a good working mind and a desire to know the truth, to not merely go along with whatever is presented as the truth, but to examine and investigate, etc. You studied, you interviewed, etc - but anjegirl, everybody has a story not just you; I was raised with no religious component at all, we never went to church or talked at all about God, etc. No one was hostile to the idea of God, just indifferent. In my mid teens I was very cerebral, I began reading a lot of esoteric poetry and metaphysics and at some point I began to peruse the Dhammapada, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Apocrypha, and the Bible, etc. Almost from the beginning the Bible struck me as not like the other texts, there was something genuinely otherworldly about it . . . eventually I was no longer reading just to entertain myself, but began to seriously seek an understanding of what was true, and eventually I wandered away from all the other material I had been reading and was reading only the Bible. No one was 'witnessing' to me, I had never been and was not currently in any church, etc, I was simply reading the Bible.
Yet, while appreciating the the uniqueness and profundity of it, I knew I wasn't really getting it - I could follow any portion, the statements I read made sense, but my understanding, especially to grasp the underlying/overarching point and purpose of what was being presented, was hindered. Still becoming more and more convinced of the uniqueness and profundity of it's message, but missing the real meaning. On one very specific reading I came upon a portion of Scripture asserting that, as the eternal God is the true author of the book and as we are mortal men, the only way to actually understand the truth being presented is if God Himself opens our eyes to understand and softens our heart to believe.
I stopped reading and simply said "God, if there is something in this book that you want me to know You're going to have to show me what it is because I'm not getting it". That day, that moment, marked a dramatic life-changing turning point for me. As I continued to read not only did what I was reading make perfect sense to me, both in the construction of the words and sentences (which I always 'got') but suddenly, instantly, the point and purpose and consequence and beauty, etc, of what I was reading became astoundingly clear. I continued to study the Bible exclusively for about the next 2 or 3 years, then began to study history, then theology - I didn't go to a church, came under no teaching, until several years after my conversion and several years of solid personal study and investigation.
Now you ask me to simply take whatever you present here as the truth, that I should count all my own years of study and research as vapid, that I should believe God wasted all that time on me for no good purpose. Anjegirl, I didn't come here announcing that you are a fool and stupid and disinterested in the truth because you don't agree with me - all I said was that on the specific point of the reliability of the Scripture text, the evidence does not support your assertion. You say the English Bible we have today is not the same Bible that the first Christians had centuries ago - but it simply, factually, is . . . we have extant texts that demonstrate that, you can look at our contemporary English translations and the most ancient Greek texts and observe that they are the same. The popular notion that the Bible has been changed through the centuries, that conniving men intentionally altered it to advance their own power, that some books that used to be part of the Bible have been lost, etc, etc, simply, factually, observably is not the truth.
I'm a reasonable man, I don't think I'm always right and I never assume I'm right, I don't resort to name-calling, I don't get mad when others see things differently than i do, I can participate in the useful, thoughtful examination of ideas - I count it telling that you go back-and-forth with slanderous charges against those who believe differently than you do, but when presented with a reference to the historic record and textual evidence you assert that others "cannot handle the truth" simply because they disagree with you and that, now, you have no more time for this "nonsense" . . . anjegirl, you were willing to call people names, use your own assumptions about others as accusations against them, and even critique other's poor grammar, etc - but now when facts and evidence is introduced you, always interested in the truth (?), now you want to leave the discussion (with a parting shot at how everyone else is a stupid fool . . . is this the manner of spiritual insight and understanding your ethereal on-the-other-side visions gave to you?
anjegirl ~ I'm simply saying that you are mistaken, the the facts, the historic record and textual criticism evidence your error - I didn't, as you did, call anyone a fool or tell anyone they are stupid. You say the Bible we have today is different from the ancient Bible - I'm not merely announcing 'I'm right and she's wrong', I'm saying look at the ancient texts, they demonstrate you are mistaken, the points you advance are unsound . . . it's not me simply assuming I'm right, it's a factual and observable matter we're talking about.
If you said I don't have a Fender Stratocaster in my house, it doesn't really matter who you say told you (Jesus but not God . . ?) or how many 'experts you've interviewed, I know you are mistaken because I'm looking at it just now. This is not an argument between you and me, between what you think and what I think - this is an examinable matter, we can look and see that the Bible we have today is essentially the same Bible the earliest Christians had.
You seem preoccupied with the KJV - it's an fine translation, but it's just one of many English translations . . . use the NASB or the ESV if you hold such unfounded doubt and ludicrous disdain for the KJV.
- jonnycomelatelyposted 13 years ago
0I can understand why you would have that opinion, because you are in Nigeria. The church is your background and I see the way you would worship. It is important to you and the people around you.
However, as others have said here in this Hub, your view cannot be universal. It does not apply to everyone in the world.
You are entitled to your own opinion, but when your opinion puts the lives of other people at risk, then it is YOU who is wrong. I can hardly imagine the courage it took for this 15 year old boy who was coming to terms with who he was to share his heart's secrets.
Sadly there are those who are judgmental and cast stones at those who do not conform to their interpretation of how they think God wants us to live.
Truly God is the only one who knows how we should live. Life choices are not to be judged by ME. That is between God and the individual. The God I love and who guides my every movement embraces and loves all of His children.
Again, I laud this young person.I am glad he corrected the hatred problem, as it is a problem.
Christ used the scripture to guide and teach, and He performed miracles. If you believe in Jesus Christ then don't you think following His guidance is required to be a 'follower' or 'servant' of Him?
If He is not Lord of their life, why then do they call Him Lord?
As children, every one of us wants candy [well, not every]..
What is essentially happening is God is telling us 'no' hoping we will listen. And because we were born with the desire for candy we tell Him "I was born this way, just because I eat it doesn't mean I'm doing wrong. God won't punish me for eating it because He loves me too."
This is true, He loves everyone. But He still has standards. It's called sin for a reason.
Refer to bottom of page 1 for details. You are right, ultimately it is between God and the person. But Christ told Peter to feed His sheep..
What do you think He meant Ms pstraubie?
Hi Jonny, I believe the answer to your question is found in Leviticus 18:22,
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
Also Rom 1:26,27:
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
God (and I speak of the God of the Bible). It's "destable" and error worthy of penalty (or punishment), for two men (and also two women) to engage in sexual relations with each other like the sexual relation that a man and a woman are physiologically and psycologically (and hence naturally) designed to partake in.
So any action that aligns with the context of these scriptures is an abomination to the Lord. It doesn't preclude a deep love and friendship or care between two men and two women. Even David (a man after God's own heart) expressed this kind of care for Jonathan to the point of calling it greater than the love of a woman. But this love that he had for Jonathan never crossed the boundaries that God had put in place for sexual relations between two human beings.Anything that is done and not designed by God is incorrect therefore a sin.
Thank you Tajman. I respect you for what you have written, and recognise where your faith and understandings come from.
For myself, and my own understandings, I can only offer you these points;
First, I do not accept the existence of a "god" which in reality makes any kind of judgment of me. It is humans that have always made and executed the judgments.
Secondly, it has been argued and argued, ad infinitum, what those edicts you speak of were aimed at in the biblical days. I will not repeat those arguments here, except to say that I live in this 21st Century, with my upbringing and current sense of right or wrong being my guide. Also I do not have any interest in whore houses, prostitutes or lustful religious practices.
Thirdly, I do not have, nor have I ever had, any sexual interest in females. To "push" my interest in that direction would be totally dishonest to my self. It would also be "against my nature." At the same time, my respect for women can be, I suspect, deeper than that many heterosexual men can engender.
Fourthly, until recently in history, scientific knowledge of how our bodies function was very vague; in fact totally misguided and usually based upon superstition. There was no knowledge that within the female there was an ovum, equally contributing to the formation of a new human being. It was assumed, because it could be easily seen, that the male's semen was the "seed" which went to form the new individual. "God" took that seed and, within the female's body, transformed it into a baby. The female's function was just that of an incubator. From this, you can see that to put the "seed" into someone's rectum, where it was believed Satan and all manner of evil spirits lived, was of course an abomination. Today, we know differently. Also, physiology and psychology are well developed sciences. Then they were virtually non-existent.
Lastly, my question of what you think will happen to a professing christian if he happens to step over the line and commit such a "sin," has not been answered. If one is caught out "doing it" in Iran, for example, you can expect the noose, drawn up slowly, so that you strangle to death in front of a jeering crowd. In an extreme christian community you can expect a very heavy social penalty. Rejection and out-casting by the family and friends whom you depend upon. All these are human punishments, nothing to do with a "god," except the one any individual harbors in his or her mind. Anything but "loving."
The latter paragraph here paints the picture of such un-loving, hateful acts that it pales any amount of lust on my part into insignificance. Conversely, to lovingly support and encourage a responsible and happy union between two homosexual persons would be totally acceptable to such a Loving God as you profess to believe in.Well said, jonnycomelately. I do believe and have faith in God, myself though. It's my fellow humans and how they interpret his will that I have a problem with.
I agreed to disagree about our belief in God, but you are saying our God [Christian God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob] accepts homosexuality.
That is incorrect. Please don't speak incorrectly on behalf of my God's will as represented in the Bible. The Bible represents itself quite well in it's views.
If you don't accept the Bible that is fine. But don't say what is acceptable concerning the God outlined in it when He clearly states opposite.
You have your belief. It's yours.
We have our belief. It's wrote clearly, and it's ours.
And no one said they hated you or any other person for any particular view they hold. If they did and I'm wrong point it out and I'll apologize for my mistake.
Until then, to each their own respectfully.The same could be said for you. You have the chutzpah to say that G-d doesn't accept homosexuality - even though he created it - but you hem and haw on the topic of divorce and remarriage even though Jesus could not have been more clear.
Double standards - something we've sadly come to accept by today's pharisees.You think divorce doesn't exist. In your explanation if anything happens both people are constantly in sin, rendering the idea of divorce non-existent.
I'm done arguing with you. You are aggrevating, and I'm not repeating things, and there IS NO double standard. There is one, upon which you disagree with me about.
You are a very pushy little fellow.
Mr Judge like to tell everyone I'm a liar and that I told everyone what they must do and I break God's law by tradition?
Get off the horse dude. And give it back to the king you stole it from.To be called pushy by you is actually a compliment.
People who've argued against slavery, segregation, women's suffrage and more have been called pushy by people who felt they never had anything to gain by the emancipation of others.
I repeat: you hold a double standard. Remarriage is a one-time event that can be forgiven, while homosexuality, you're absolutely sure (because you have a direct line to G-d), is considered blasphemy against the holy ghost and therefore unforgivable.
Like I said, lots of chutzpah.
I certainly hope your morality develops before you consider having children.Divorce is the action of Divorcing dear sir. [once divorc"ed" the action is completed]
Homosexuality is repeated execution of an action stated by the God of Abraham to be wrong in His eyes.
Repetition is continuous rebellion. (Jesus didn't come to let everyone bask in sin and rebellion)
If you coninuously repeat the divorcing action, then it is equivalent to repeating the homosexual action (do not lie with mankind as with womankind) and only then is it equivalent.
I certainly hope your arrogant accusation of me being immoral is out of sincere lack of comprehension regarding the preceeding explanation...Yours is an explanation of convenience. Your church might otherwise be comprised of at least 50% adulterers. That wouldn't be too neighborly to call them out for being adulterers, would it? It's better to direct your sanctimony towards gays and lesbians, who have long been the target of right-wing churches, and aren't members anyway in any meaningful number.
Remarriage, in the eyes of your lord Jesus Christ, is equivalent to adultery. The two people, every time they sleep together, are having sex outside of the bonds of marriage. It is no different from two unmarried gay people; every time they sleep together, they are having sex outside the bonds of marriage.
Again, I understand your resistance in understanding this. I understand it's far easier to condemn people you don't know or care about, than to tackle the elephant in the room that the majority of your fellow believers are guilty of.Promote sin all you like.
I will not.
I have condemned no one.
Your lies against me are disgusting.
John 7:7
Good day.He's promoting sin? I thought he was simply pointing out the fact that divorcing and then remarrying is adultery, and a lifestyle of sin just like you believe homosexuality is? Where is the "promotion of sin" in this specific paragraph? It was something I was taught when I was a Christian. Nothing new.
You put too much emphasis on homosexuality. You dissect it. You say this scripture says this and that about it. He was simply pointing out that not enough Christians point out the fact that according to the same Jesus and NT you claim is against homosexuality (with ambiguously and questionably translated scriptures) is also against Divorce and Remarrying, a fact that is actually way clearer. This is also a "lifestyle of sin."He won't see it that way, because he doesn't want to see it that way. He'll interpret the Bible the way he wants to, and then proclaim it as the unalterable truth. Because he said so.
If you'd quit looking at and pointing that finger of yours at me, you might find that there are better things to do than make the debater the subject.
If you can't focus, let me help.
Chistianity and homosexuality.. not vector.
You are not God sir.. Quit pointing at me and stick to the subject.
I'm sorry you are more interested in demonizing a minority of people based on a flimsy interpretation of a 17th century translation of the Bible, than admitting that the Bible is far more clear in condemning the voluntary behavior of heterosexual people regarding marriage. I don't see it that way - I'm a proponent of divorce when the love isn't there - but I'm not pretending to be a Biblical literalist and the spokesperson of G-d.
Again, I understand that you're not interested in seeing it that way, but, as Orwell said, to see what's right in front of you requires a constant struggle.I agree with Orwell.
The KJV did not appear from a vacuum and it's not the sole source of information for our beliefs.
Yes, heterosexual behavior gets a lot more scrutiny (and condemnation) in Scripture than homosexual behavior. And personally, I don't think that having gay feelings will keep you out of Heaven. But the Bible is pretty clear about what marriage is and who God said should be married. That doesn't let heterosexuals off the hook under any circumstances.
That's the most rip-roaring hilarious explanation I've read today, well done.
Well stated Vector7 excellent apologetics...lol
You STILL have not said what you think will happen to a christian if he "does these things," Vector7.
YOUR god that YOU interpret from YOUR bible is what YOU worship. Swim in the sea of your own making. But you will not drag others into that sea, hopefully, because it's full of your ego.
Good luck.
Hi Johnny, thanks for clarifying your stance. Permit me to comment.
Regarding your first point, I believe this is a matter of faith. I believe in God and I believe the Bible is His Word. I believe that He sent His Son to die for us to give ALL people the opportunity of redemption if you only believe He (God) is who He says He is. I'm sadden by your choice but I can only present the truths as I've come to see them and pray you too will understand that we can be nothing without Christ.
Regarding your second point, I've not seen these arguments but I have seen some reference to a similar thought in some quick searches I did in the past. However the whole chapter of Lev. 18 references sexual immorality. The chapter deals with relations with close relatives, same sex relations, treatment of children and beastiality. I won't doubt that there were specific practices that Israel accustomed from the peoples around them that God intended to stamp out but God also indentified these practices themselves to be unacceptable - the word used is detestable in the NIV. It's not easy to extract Lev. 18:22 and simply say it was only applicable in Biblical times or specific Biblical occurences in those times when all other portions of Lev. 18 are laws society upholds today in the 21st century. Let me put my argument another way - would it still be considered 'wrong' if in a particular society consensual sexual relations between a man and his adult daughter was accepted? This seems to me the argument you put forward - that in today's society homosexuality is acceptable and because this and your upbringing, it's okay. Scripture, and even our own view of the majority of sexual relations prohibited by God in this passage does not support this stance you make. The same can be said of the scripture in Romans - applicable to aspecific scenario in Biblical times, yes, but referencing fundamental principles of Godly conduct for man.
Regarding your third point, I tried to put myself in your position and I can't see myself ever being attracted to a man physically in the way I am to a woman so I can appreciate how difficult this would be. However, for the believer there can be no compromise on God's will. Do you know that even premarital sex is prohibited for a Christian? I have had my own struggles with this since prior to hearing God's stance on that I believed once you loved someone, then it's alright to be with them in this way. I say that to say, and again this is for the true Christian believer (your view will obviously differ), God's will must take preemminence in our lives. Also, I see you make a point of emphasizing "nature." Is this with reference to the use of the word "natural" in Rom? In Romans the Greek for the word translated "natural" has it's origin in the word that means physical. Therefore Rom 1:27, I believe, speaks to the physical structure of a man and woman's genitalia, which are complimentary. Something I'm sure you must agree is not the case between two men and two women.
Regarding your fourth point, men today definitely have more knowledge of the inner workings of the human body than men in biblical times. However based on my understanding of God being omniscient, He was and still is always fully aware of the intricacies of human phisiology and psyche. I believe this is demonstrated in the laws on health given to Israel, again in Leviticus. I can't say that I agree with your exposition of biblical views on a baby's development. In fact, the concept of a "seed" is very much representative of procreation since, for a seed to grow and develop, it must be planted (insemination) and nutrients are provided by the soil (a woman's womb) until the developed fruit becomes available (the child). I believe God used the available knowledge that men had at the time to reveal deeper truths to His people. I've not seen any reference to evil spirits dwelling in the rectum in the Bible but I do know that most doctors would discourage the practice of sodomy as there are several health issues that can be attributed to it.
On your last point, which I believe is most relevant to the original post, the Bible gives clear instruction in Gal 6:1, "But if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual restore him gently." There's also a warning to watch yourself, lest you also get tempted. If, however, someone perpetuates the sin or doesn't recognize it as such, then the person is to be considered ungodly (Matt 18:15-17). Why? Because such a person will sully the name of the Lord and cause disrepute to His name and His church - Israel was punished by God for the exact same thing. This is the case with ALL sin, not just homosexual conduct. Can someone be a homosexual (I checked and it is a noun - blame evolution of language) and Christian? I would say yes but it would be very difficult to continue that way since the true believer though gay at conversion will experience, gradually or immeidately, the transforming power of the indwelling Holy Spirit as he/she yields to Him.
Love is at the heart of Christianity and above demonstrates this because every effort must be made to ensure the brother/sister is restored. However, God and by extension those who profess belief in Him, cannot encourage practices and beliefs that are contrary to God's revealed Will in scripture since these will ultimately lead to separation from God and (eternal) death.A mouthful indeed! No, our God is not pleased with sin in any form. I love the quote, "restore him gently" for God is a gentleman (Spirit) and he sent Jesus to show us how to do it. I am all smiles for our God is here and someone WILL be transformed in thought. I believe that the bible states clearly that homosexuality is wrong. But so is lying. We must serve God in Spirit and truth. We can't change stealing into "not really a sin" because we can't afford the things we want. If u don't like the opposite sex, u "could" choose celibacy. IJS... God's word takes preeminance. It don't change. But, you could crawl up so close to him and receive his grace until change that you have acknowleged to HIM you need, has come.
i know whole movements of christians who have no problem with homsexuality.
You demonstrate excessive pride, one of the Seven Deadly Sins, in your responses. Christians should be more humble concerning interpretations of the Bible. And you, as a black man, also have more responsibility to be more careful due to how it was used for centuries to justify slavery. So-called "Christians have a long history of misinterpreting the Bible and causing or rationalizing a lot of misery and death..i.e. the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Trials, the Thirty Years War, Slavery. I come to this discussion as a believer, myself.
At least you're critical of your faith and how others adhere to it, some don't know such levels of humility.
Oh yeah.. HOW humble of him....
"So-called"....I love it! I love it! I love it! My sentiment exactly. How is it that bible readers always find it necesary to pluck the splinter from their brother's eye when they cant see clearly because of the log in their own? we as Christians are admonished to take up our OWN beds and walk, encourage our brothers in the Lord, and preach the good news of the gospel. Not separate the wheat from the tare. That's God's business. We don't know nor love his children as He does.
Amen.
2 Timothy 2:15 - 3:16
Preach, Love, Live.
I could always encourage my and sisters more.
"That's God's business. We don't know nor love his children as He does."
GOODNESS, you are a breath of fresh air.. lolThanks;) I have so many ideas on this subject. I have stood idly by too long. God is not pleased with us when we offend his children.
Well, I don't particularly like offending anyone. (I love lots of friends
)But if it comes between God and them.. lol..
I live for Jesus Christ.Please be clear... I never considered you offensive. I love the way you speak for God. Almost like Jesus did
It is my desire to speak as Jesus did. There is NO condemnation to those who love God who walk not after the "finger-pointing" flesh... Our God wants us spreading his message of love, acceptance, forgiveness. And them "holy-rollers" is slowin'up the process. LolI understood it. He showed me what you meant.
I only want what He want's, and for Him to get the credit.
And you've got an excellent sense of humor.. lolYeah, we want the same thing. One, in the Spirit. God is AWESOME to me. Though I grew up in "church" I am not a member. But I love a good God conversation. He is my everything too. I have so many "flaws" my judge meter is waaay low. The sense of humor (u noticed
was from God too. He wants us to have a good time. A merry heart does like medicine. It really has healing properties. 100+ yr olds wear a smile. Have u noticed? Thank you, U are a breath of fresh air. Keepyour light on. IT'S BLINDING!!!
Boldness and pride are seperate.
Disagreeing isn't prideful.
I really wish people would exercise quotes when they accuse.
And how does his race have anything to do with his "responsibility"?
That is about the most disturbing thing I've read in this thread. Accusing, (Trait given to Satan/Devil/Accuser) demanding him "more" responsible than others regarding something (taking notes from the slavery events should remind you to forget his race and speak to him as a man just like I and you are a man, not different), and as a believer you sure have a way of throwing everyone else under the bus as if you haven't commited sin.
I normally don't entertain the subject being the poster, but your "accusations" as a "believer" seem to me to be more suited to one who believes himself the authority rather than the Bible. If you can't use what scripture was given for, then why does it include 2 Timothy 3:16?
"...as a black man..."? SERIOUSLY???"And "as a black man"? SERIOUSLY???" -are you stalling for an answer? You obviously don't have one. Of course I'm being serious. Gaeparks is a black man. His one hub is about racism. "That is about the most disturbing thing I've read in this thread." -Wow, thank you for that. I must've hit a nerve. As I said before, the Bible was used to justify, what we now view as evils of the past. In current times you are making blanket judgement against homosexuals the way judgement was made in the past to justify black slavery. Is my addressing his responsibility as a so-called "Christian" black male that difficult to understand for you? I am responding to your interpretation of the Bible. This author, and other religious scholars, have given you alternate interpretations of the Bible. You are not God to know for sure how to interpret the Bible. You, as a Christian, should demonstrate more humility.
Based on how hard my response hit you as well as your accusations that I'm "throwing everyone else under the bus as if you haven't commited sin." (Where did you get that from what I said?), I don't expect you to actually answer me, but rather throw more accusations at me because you don't have an answer.No one is JUDGING anyone.
I'm not 'banning' them .. 'segregating' them .. 'jailing' them .. 'demeaning' them..
Have you READ Leviticus 18:22? Not to mention the New Testament?
I did say "seem" hoping you would correct me, as I'm not attempting to do harm. I'm defending someone I respect. AND my Bible. AND my brothers and sisters in Christ.
There IS NO interpreting. It states it flat out. More than twice, Old and New Testament.
If they want homosexuality they can have it, but don't tell me my Bible agrees with it, because it doesn't.
You want the truth, that's it. I don't care who likes it. God is the only 'opinion' I'm concerned with.
"I" am doing exactly what I felt was, and is, needed and that is taking a stand for my God and His Holy Word. Have you not read where Christ taught by scripture? Or where He told Peter to feed His sheep if he loved Him?
I'm plenty humble, but when the truth needs to be told I'm not afriad of being ostracized because I spoke the scriptures.
Maybe I should just post the scripture and let it speak itself if people think my boldness is pride.
I'm dirt poor, have given everything I own to others, stand for nothing but God, my Christ Jesus, and speak up only when I believe it in someone's best interest.
How 'prideful' can I be? Would you like me to tell you that what God has given me, time to study, and the Holy Spirit to learn is of no use and I shouldn't state what the scriptures teach? I will not.
"So-called" certainly struck a nerve and I'm a little more torn every time I see "believer" and "So-called Christians" in a post.
I don't want to accuse you. I just want people to focus on the subject rather gaeparks, me, or any other specific individual.
I didn't accuse you, I stated what YOU stated. It's still there. I haven't seen him be prideful, and I seen you use no quotes.
"So-called" is throwing US (the "so called" "Christians") under the bus. You are speaking about a group, called Christians.
And as for you addressing his race... YES, I find it disturbing. He is a man, not a "black" man.
Segregation only exists in people's minds. That's where it came from to begin with. Like you said, they mis-used the Bible to promote their ugly idea of slavery.
So lets forget the color, and remember the kind.. man-kind.
I don't want anyone telling me about what my white-ness means. [And I'm not even all white]
The only thing that matters about that man is his heart. PERIOD.What exactly is your experience with the black man, other than phony white guilt? Are blacks in your family? Would you lie with them, produce offspring? Have they nursed or spent their last dime on you? I know all of these experiences. Don't come to me with your saccharin tolerance towards blacks, baked in Tartuffe Christianity and assume the high ground. You'd run from blacks if confronted. You'd peep out of your curtains in terror as they infested your neighborhood. Chaos and murder overwhelm the nation's cities. Is this the curse of Ham? A modern Christian ignores such words, only embracing laws against gays. And I have read Leviticus and the New Testament. Women are doomed. Women are under the thumb of men. This truth cannot be reconciled. Leviticus is chockfull of laws that you ignore, rituals that you do not observe. At no point do you sacrifice aromas pleasing to the Lord. You are a Gentile. A Canaanite unworthy of God's favor. Leviticus says so in black and white. Any man, more specifically a man who'd defend divorce, is no Christian. You rewrite the Bible to satisfy your vapid soul. You're going to hell along with the homosexuals and liberated women. Your burning flesh will please only Satan, not the God in heaven who'll condemn you to eternal suffering.
I have black in my blood.
And I live in the community with them and have more black friends than white.
I embrace the The Holy Bible and I have gay friends as well.
Paul writes plenty himself. I need not add anything.
I think you've wrote enough to satisfy my suspicions.
God bless.We can discuss God in hell together. You have no black in your blood. No black man ever slept in your home, used your restroom or protected your mother. A liberated woman, one of billions that your God would condemn to hell. And your God never condemned slavery. Not once. Mr. Divorce -
It ruined my life and hers. But he's my father and I love him. My biological father took the route of many white racial phonies, such as yourself. He rewrote the Bible to excuse divorce. I'll see you in hell, buddy.
No. You won't.
I've been abandoned by everyone I know.
Except for Jesus Christ. And He never will abandon me.
You think what you want, and you accuse me all you want. But what you think you know about me, is wrong.
God knows me and my heart, and I could care less what you think.
My God will never leave nor forsake me. He is my everything.
Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I have. I've read what they've said, in word-to-word translations from the original Hebrew and Greek. They are ambiguous, and Biblical scholars are not even close to unanimous in their interpretation.
Your certainty makes it clear you haven't read them. You've relied on King James to do the thinking for you. Or else you've chosen to take the most cruel possible interpretation of the text, even as that contradicts with the general message of a commandment to love your brother, repeated dozens of times in the Bible.
That's probably very true. But then again your Bible is a bastardization of the original Bible. (Neither Moses nor Jesus, nor anyone actually described in the Bible, spoke Early Modern English, vector7).
This New Testament verse should boil your phony black blood. It was used for centuries to justify slavery. You should raise your fist towards God in outrage. But you won't - you're a Christian fraud. A Tartuffe. It's only about the gays - we can discuss it in hell.
I Peter 2:18 - Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
(Froward means difficult - people today read the DDVB - Dumbed Down Version Bible.)Matthew 5:44
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;It's sad that it was interpreted as pro slavery. I see it as a "turn the other cheek" kind of passage, i.e. if you're forced to be a slave be the best slave you can possibly be.
"Interpreted" - what a joke . The Bible is book of slavery. Jesus said nothing about slavery. Or homosexuality.
Not true, and not true.
Everything He said was about slavery. Don't forget that Israel was basically enslaved by Rome. And His rise in political power was because people thought He was going to lead an armed rebellion and kick the Romans out, while His political fall (and eventual crucifixion) was because He made it clear that the slavery He was interested in was human slavery to sin! Your relationship to God is more important that your relationship to the government.
Jesus did quote Genesis 2:21-25. That is an explicit outline of God's design for marriage.
The Bible is about man's relationship to God. And the New Testament makes explicit that men are all equal before God. That evil people took the Bible and attempted to get it to justify their actions doesn't make them less evil. And it was evil. The Bible is not pro-slavery.Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)
yes! God wanted them to be good slaves. Some slavery was needed to build. The poor will be with us always. But I do believe that there were warnings for the "master" as well. See the parable Jesus told about Lazarus the slave.
Wait... I think Lazarus was a beggar. But I think the same principles apply.
To build? Are you calling for the repeal of the 14th and 15th Amendments in the name of God? You're a racist and you're going to hell. Wait...God never said anything about racism. You're safe - speak your racist heart. We're all friends
I was speaking of ancient slavery. However, I guess it does apply for building the U.S. Just think about it... What White body could withstand cotton-picking in blazing sunshine? I beieve we have been the strongest because we founded on Godly principle, though we as humans didn't get it all right. We are falling into a dangerous trap turning away from God. As for the amendments, that was one of those things we got right as a country. God's little Black children were being offended.
Just the trip crammed into the hold s of ships weeded out all of the weak African men, women, and children on the voyage to the Americas. Up to 60% of these poor souls would die crossing the oceans. Only the strongest of them survived with their children being stronger because of it.
Check out how many people are on only one deck of this slave ship. Darn it, how do you make the photo bigger?
Yep... That's the sad story. It was horrible, I just know it. But, as I said, God was there. He hated the suffering of his children. But he has more than made up for it. And he isstill at work.
You're entitled to your opinion, but that's all it is. I care not for any god which has to cause such suffering to prove any point. Even the very worst of gods could be no more cruel! You are welcome to him!!
And what has he done "to make up for it"? Don't forget the 6,000,000 Jews he allowed to die and the entire population of man and beast during the Great flood. Not to mention the Native Americans he allowed to be slaughtered. I hope you have something good and really remarkable to tell me?
And you are welcomed to NOT have him. It is your decision. But I believe u wud not put so much care and concern to it if you didn't have questions and a deep yearning for the love that only he can give. It's not just you... We all yearn for him. He made us that way.
Then you would believe wrong! I wasted a lot of my childhood sitting in church listening to some of the most ignorant humans I've ever met tell me what god said. What surprises me the most is how modern day people still believe in an invisible deity who acts in the same manner all of the many other gods have. they are all invisible, expect blind faith, have excuses for people's suffering and never do a damn thing about it.
And you worship a creature who raped a 13 year old child who was already engaed to marry another person, got her pregnant, then sacrificed his son--no big deal and no sacrifice cause he can just bring him right back again. Most of you believers would have fit in well at Salem helping kill the witches if you believe the stuff you do now. No kidding!
Please stop. There was no rape. Only a touch. God is awesome. He knew you were on that pew. He whispered then to you, as he does now. He loves you anyway. You can't change that. And he's ready when you are
I'm so glad god is a He. From this post there's every chance that he's Gay!
"Whispered in my ear!" Wow!No. He's never whispered anything to me, and if you are representative of those he wishes me to emulate, then he is even more evil than I can possibly imagine. Why does he choose the most uneducated of humans to tout his message? I do not wish to think like you! No Thanks!
Different kind of work, diff time, diff place. And cant we keep this civil? I know verbal assault language too. And im from the hood. Now...
Different kind of work? Different kind of place? The sun burns worldwide. The fire of Italy and Northern Africa is more brutal than that of Dixie. You excused black slavery in the name of God. Civility is a non-issue. What's your point? The slaves singing in the fields differs somehow from the subjugation of Caesar? Are you moved more by Spartacus than Gone With the Wind?
WOW! (This would be the place to put a shocked emoticon but apparently that is verboten)
Just a heads-up ATM, but using emoticons--smilies--is taboo here now. HP will use this as an excuse for banning you if you continue to do so. I was informed of this in an email. Yes, I know it's stupid and we've used them for years, but there it is! Sorry. If you'll become a greeter you can probably get away with it, as they seem to be immune from being banned!
I saw nothing in the TOS about that??? Is that a joke?
No joke, ATM. When I was banned for daring to disagree with the greeters and staff, I emailed staff requesting the "official" reason for my 30 day ban. Instead of telling me, they simply said it was "accidental" but was now rescinded. No kidding, this is what they said, but by the way, it also said, emoticons are now prohibited if they use live links. This is why I had to stop using the snake smilie I had been using for years.
Yes, I realize it was a form of "payback" from staff for having to rescind my ban, but now the smilies--except for the little crappy ones from HP--are not allowed. This is why I now use my Ewbie snake signature. No kidding!
All I can say is, WOW! (place shocked emoticon here)
I do not have your self control, ATM. I used every curse word I could think of! I didn't have to say them out loud either, because those deserving them knew they did so.
Basically, I think slavery was primitive, far from ideal social welfare in the biblical sense, particularly in the case of what was allowed the Hebrews in the OT (Exodus 21:16 specifically forbids kidnapping/involuntary slavery, so that alone should have overturned any justification for the 17th century African slave trade). Once nations became large and stable enough to develop social welfare the practice should have become effectively obsolete.
Slavery flourishes in the 21st century. God overlooks nine-year-old prostitutes so men like Eric Newland can find ways to explain the glaring omissions from the Bible. God was pro-slavery. A simple mind would look to circumvent this truth, while an advanced mind would accept the God of Abraham was a racist. He subjugated women and cursed Ham. Canaanites weren't his creation, they only served as the dramatic villain. Only the Jews are favored and most of them no longer believe.
Wow.. God doesn't overlook anything. Men have free will. He does not intervene everytime, then we'd be no more than puppets. Evil exists. It's simply a fact. He prefers we choose him. But we aint Got to. And he wont make us. Most of the time. He alone chooses.
"Free Will"?
"Worship me or burn in hell! But don't let me influence your decision cause I want you to do as you choose. But, just don't forget about the burn in hell thing. No pressure"! What a joke! Only the most uneducated would call this free will. There is no free will unless there are no consequence, people!
Where did you learn about free will? In a church or somewhere equally biased?
Puppets... Christians are His willing puppets, or at least that's the goal. All the rest of us are just useless, to be tossed into the "Fire" for not wanting to be His puppets... We are punished, according to your theology, for expressing our free will... in a manner that "God" doesn't favor... "Free will" is an illusion in this religion. "Free will" is basically an illusion in general, but that's a different story.
God wants us all. But he knows we will not all choose his way. There is a way to escape punishment. Choose correctly.
To me, God is boss. If I go to work, I must do things according to the plans of the establishment. I cannot go to work and tell my boss how my job should be done. I cannot tell him that I want to set my break time and my stop time. I must decide to follow the rules. Or not. They cant make me come back to work on time but they can make other arrangements to get their work done.
THis is true...But if one doesn't work there, they aren't held accountable either when the work isn't completed or for the products/services produced.
And as the old saying goes, "the customer is always right", I would say the persons, buying or using the products or services provided are the "bosses" as any business will fail if it doesn't have customers.To me, God is boss, the earth in its entirety, his esablishment. If u dont believe, what is your concern for the punishment? Who doles out such punishment? No God, no worries, right? He loves you either way. And he is ALWAYS available when/if you let him in.
I am not saying there isn't a God...
I was more, impling, that to each their own. And the "punishment" only applies to those who believe in such things.
None of us truly know...And we will only find out if believers are correct...If there is nothing as the atheist believe, then we will just be dead.No prob
it's ok not to know. Closing this door is a mistake in my opinion. but you are the master of your domain.
He wants us all to come to him. Gay, straight, obnoxious, prideful. He just wants us to choose his way.
Sure he does! He obviously craves attention and has a very low sense of self esteem. Beings like him often get ticked off about things they already knew would happen and murder almost everyone on earth, including the poor innocent children.
I can picture how it must have been when the water kept rising. People tried to save their little children but eventually all of them were forced to inhale the water and the babies didn't last long. The poor animals swam for a while until they too slowly succumbed to the water and god saw it was good.
Yes maaam, sounds like a creature worthy of emulating, right? It's godly to murder and torture, and apparently molesting 13 year old children is okay. No wonder so many church leaders get caught molesting kids. Act in a godly manner, we are taught in the churches of this crazy society. Well, you can't complain when people do!
Oh stop... There was no sex between Mary and God. There was reason for the flood. God is self-esteem. God is love. He knows why everything. I can't. So I follow closely behind because I know that of everything I have tried, this works best. Thanks for listening.
God is self esteem and love, so god is just thought? so what are yo following closely behind?
God is everything to me. My list was only a small fragment. He is my guide. I follow. Any more questions?
How your thought becomes a "he"?
Whether this he is your mind or some outside personality?
I can understand if you say your mind is your guide, but if it is a different one how does it guide you?From the word written, then whispered into my inner ear. They agree. Those words, I mean. it is something extraordinary. The Spirit of God (he) cuz it's shorter
leads my heart through his written and whispered word. Better?If you hear words without the speaker, please consult a doctor.
If it is written words how did you make out it is from god, because you like it or because you are told so?I just spoke of the speaker. My doctor also. My faith; that is what makes me to know that the writings are authentic. Not much different than the faith that Science has that their calculations are correct.
Faith is a complete trust in someone. So you are restating what you already told without answering my question.
My question is, how do you know the words you take as 'God's words' are from god?Because it works. The words on the page are alive. They have transforming powers. totally pure. Translation (schmasmation). God preserved the basic messages. He promised. Faith. Understand that? I'm sure, no. hidden unless you look for it.
You twist whatever is written to appear it as Good, just like the payer of the two girls or your justification of slavery.
And you get so many self-help books whose words have transforming powers. They have power only because somebody chose to act on it.
So you are telling me all the written words are God's words?
How do you know about God's promise?God's word cannot be twisted. Not really. It's good as it stands. God promises good. Bad happens. Evil exists. It will cease...in his timing.
My question is still unanswered, how do you know that bible is God's word?
God's word can't be twisted, so slavery, racism and genocide are all Good?I have answered you I think three times already. Where ya been??? proof exists in my life as ive tried the Spirit many times. It works for me.
So you think bible is God's word because it worked for you.
It worked for you because you think it is God's word.
So you think you are correct and all others are wrong because they don't believe you?It works for me because it works; regardless of what you or I believe. Fortunately, God is always there. It's NEVER too late to come to him. I believe you are wrong for not believing. But you; I, for believing. Time will tell.
Why are you hesitant to restate the original reason. It works for you and bible is God's word because you are indoctrinated.
If that works for you, take it. I have lived this thing foryears. I have tried many other things, but I have never found such peace. I'm sticking with it. And if you're happy w/o it, I can live with that. Heaven lost a great thinker though, and she aint happy about it.
Oh! No I'm not asking you to change anything, All I'm asking is for you to either rationally explain, or keep nonsense to yourself.
People read self help books and some get inspired and attain great heights, but that is not a license to preach that it god's word and justify all sorts of immorality like slavery, homophobia, genocide...
You were indoctrinated while you were young, that is not your fault. You cannot think outside the bible, again that is not your fault. But when you want others to think like you without reason, you are insulting the intelligence of others and it is your fault.I have a very good reason for wanting you to think like me, thank you. Just a moment ago, I went to my RBC email for my daily word. Today's scripture referred to the word being slive, powerful, and sharper than a two edged sword. Tho I havent heard the scripture in prob yests, it came to me this morning, as confirmation of truth. I spoke of that scripture earlier in this post. God confirms this way often in my life. God is definitely real in my life. Just try it for real.
That is where conflicts arise. Just because you are indoctrinated and cannot think for yourself, doesn't mean I want to stop thinking and be a fool.
And I certainly don't like slavery, genocide and racism.Slavery, genocide and racism are not God's actions. People misinterpreting through lustful, prideful, and puffed up ideas created that stuff. God knows why. I cant speculate. Got bigger fish.God is love.
You said god's words cannot be twisted. Now says people twisted it. And you yourself were justifying slavery a few posts above.
God is 'love', so god is just a concept? And yo says your are guided by a concept?K, let's see if we can't sort this out. Slavery had a stamp on it. God allowed it for whatever reason. the mistreatment was not authorized. I said not really on the twisting part. People twist the word all the time. But it doesn't stand. The truth of the word stands. God is eerything (good) remember?
So you say slavery, genocide and racism was allowed by god, but it was people who were doing the mistreatment.
How can slavery, or genocide or racism be fair treatment?
If god knew they will mistreat, then why he allowed it?
How somebody who allowed all this can still be good?I don't know why God allows people to have their own free will. Or why he allows people to speak against him. You can ask on judgement day, if you can think of that question then.
Judgement day just took place and it came from your trumpet.
Be honest, say you do not know anything about god except what your priest taught you and you blindly believe your priest.
If you do not know, then why do you speak for god?Is genaea catholic? Has she said she's never read the Bible and only has learned about God from her priest?
If not, then why do you make assumptions every bit as broad and unfounded as what you accuse her of?She doesn't answer very many questions when asked. Assumptions remain the only thing left to assess her thoughts. She simply needs to answer questions if she expects the same from others on these forums.
Whom do yet think wrote the bible, the absentee god?
And who introduced(indoctrinated) her to bible?I don't think priests wrote the Bible. So you're point is murky, at best.
I was not introduced to the Bible by priests.
So my questions still stand. If she is catholic, and she has never read the Bible but only knows what priests have told her, then the points are valid.
Here's a very good reason why he allowed it...
"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."So, your response is to insult people. How very Christian of you.
You are insulted by your words being reflected back to you? Im sorry. Go ahead... Reflect my words back to me
My words were not directed at you, hence you have no right to insult me.
It works because current American society is a remnant of older European society, which was influenced heavily by Christianity/Christendom. (Yes, our system of government was established in a similar format to that in Europe, seeing as Europeans set it up...) Such "values" and Modus Operandi and the like have been spread around the world, unfortunately.
I find Eastern Philosophical ideas to work much better in general.
No, you stop and then I won't have to say anything contrary to your statements, genaea. If you, and others like you, would simply keep your nonsense to yourselves, then I would keep my opinions quiet also. I'm sorry, but I refuse to stand back while you guys perhaps cause another Jonestown or Salem Witch Trials incident because you guys think some god or another gives you the right.
At one time you could get away with it with anyone speaking out against your silly cult being tried for heresy or even tortured. Not anymore though. So, if you wish to speak for your god, then defend the stupid book as best you can. This is the only thing you have the power to do in today's world, thank goodness.
Soon, people will murder those who believe God's message. Many people hate the idea of unspeakable joy that surpasses all understanding because of the favor of God. Evil is real and it plans to do some damage.
Yes, we have nothing better to do than to murder Christians!
Don't give yourself so much importance, genaea! We don't want to harm you, we just don't wish your cult to keep causing people grief. Especially small children who are indoctrinated into your supernatural beliefs from an early age. I would bet you were a victim yourself.
Tell me, how did you choose your beliefs? Did you examine tall of the different beliefs and gods before deciding being a fundamentalist was right for you? I doubt seriously you did. After all, you know very little about the one you now claim. You probably have no idea how the bible came to be in its present form. Most Christian's do not, in my experience. But then, they are told not to question the old novel, aren't they?
How do you know where the bible came from? It was written somewhere? did you know King James or his translators? Evil wants Christians dead, as it did Christ. That's why so many argue religion. Most want to kill this "God notion". Well i'm tellin' it and yellin' it everywhere I go.
And yes, I was indoctrinated young. I never forgot- just as the word promised. Thank God!!!
So you are like the 'Jews who killed Jesus', kill anyone who does not agree with/ obey you.
We're not killing anyone... We're giving life...to those who want it. Evil killed the Jews.
Evil killed the Jews??? You are giving life?
What is your point?
They killed Jesus because Jesus disagreed. Now you propose the same thing the Jews did. How is that giving life?They killed Jesus because he disagreed??? He told them that they were not doing God's will with their finger-pointing and ritualistic pride. He changedtheir twisted way of doing things. They din like the challenge. Ok, he disagreed.
Well God created evil...
Actually, I have a question for you:
Can anything happen in this world outside of the will of God?
King James was a well known homosexual. He didn't try and hide it, even though he was foremost in having the bible complied by those chosen intentionally to remove and discard many other books which were formerly considered biblical works.
God did not choose these editors and censors as you would like to think. Politics, as well as religion, played a large part in the particular biblical scholars chosen for this task.
There was no doubt you were indoctrinated into this cult at an early age. If you had been born in the middle east, then more than likely each day you would now be praying towards Mecca and vilifying those of your present religious affiliation. Otherwise, there would only be one religion because everyone would eventually "see the light" and convert to your "one true god".
I doubt seriously you know any more about your chosen cult than you do any others. Aren't you lucky God had you born in just the right place in the world?
Goodness... There is so much to consider. King James in all his infinite wisdom and power did not remove the homo/abomination script. Maybe, he had no power to change God's message??? God promised us the message, we gor it. Choose ye this day...
Even Kings have their limitations, geaea. And he personally had no hand in the censoring of the novel. And although ALL of the chosen scholars were sinners of some sort, they didn't remove all of the scriptures which pointed to their own transgressions either.
And since you are obviously not familiar with all of the translations of the old book of myths--I'm sure you prefer the highly suspect KJV, going by your posts-- whether homosexuality is an abomination or not depends on how the verses are interpreted. So unless King Jimmy was told he was an abomination by the learned men, then perhaps he wasn't aware of this being the case. Besides, in those days telling the most powerful man in the nation he was a pervert was seldom done. I think even you can understand the reasoning for this being the case.
So, if King Jimmy did not even read the text he approved, then how can he be accused of altering it? I say, God himself wrote the book in my heart. im no "specialer" than u. Let him start writing to you.you will have more peace.
He had it altered, if you want to get right down to it. But this isn't the point at all, genaea. Even if they had changed every word in the thing you would still be insisting it is your god's word. Absolutely none of the gospels are eye witness accounts. Who first told you the bible is the word of god, Genaea? Think hard and tell the truth as best you can.
God never wrote anything on a piece of papyrus, clay, or paper. it is said he inscribed the Ten Commandments on stone tablets. What language do you suppose he wrote them in? And since the common person of the supposed time period couldn't read them anyway, who told them what they said? Ask your god and get back to me if you are serious.
And believe me, I am at peace enough not to need old myths and invisible supernatural beings to babysit me. Sorry you are threatened by your god.
I agree with you totally. It should never have come to people stealing people. But God was there then. He allowed it for a reason. The people went too far. As usual, right? that we know.but they probably wouldn't have gotten too many volunteers. That was a long boat ride...
Um, "some slavery was needed to build?"
I'm a pretty conservative guy and a Bible literalist, and I admit I have trouble with that one.
But yes, there were also warnings for the masters.Maybe should've come before some slavery. I dont know why God allowed it, but he did. And he must've been ok with it to some extent, because of the admonishment to masters.
I don't know. I'm not so sure it's that He was okay with it more than He realized that men were going to do these things anyway. Israel was not built with slave labor, and Egypt was not given the Mosaic Law.
Reminds me of the story of the two crippled little girls prayed to god to get healed. One got healed while the other didn't.
The one got healed prayed thanking him, “Thank you Lord for your grace and blessing,And for hearing my prayer and answering it.”
The one who didn't healed too prayed thanking him,"“Thank you Lord for Your sign,
I now understand that in Your infinite wisdom,You wanted it this way.”
Indoctrination/pre-conditioning. But for god- head I win, tail you loose.I don't understand. You win? God always wins. Are you on our side?
Was speaking for god. It was "but, for god -"head...". Forgot to put the punctuation.
And your statement proves it, irrespective of the outcome its always a win-win situation for god, the indoctrinated will twist it to appear so.God is awesome! I don't know why you feel that it should be challenged. I believe we have to deal with the way things are. Since our realities are different we may agree to disagree. God offers to all. Those who come to him and learn of him from a sincere heart receive.
I don't understand what this 'god' is, you are saying god is a concept, then how can a concept offer anything? How can anybody go to a concept?
How our realities are different? Do we got a different sun, moon and earth?God is real to me. His word is real to me. To you??? "this god" OUR realities ARE different. If you want to keep listening of his goodness to me, ok. Other than that, we are wheel-spinning. I belong to God. You don't want to.
Still I Don't understand. If sun is real and if the reality is same to us, then how come god is different?
How do you know which is "God's word" and how do you know it is from god?
No, genaea means that the way we perceive and think about things are different. God is not a concept.
She said god is love. Love is a concept, then how can god be an object?
God is the embodiment of love, just like people say that "Elvis is rock 'n' roll," or "Warhol is pop art," or "Einstein is genius." These people are not concepts, nor are they literally the concepts they are said to embody. And people understand that.
But further, God is the origination of love. He created everything, that includes love as both a noun and a verb.And isn't it true he created hate also? If he created all things, then this includes hate as well as love. No hate, no love. Right Chris?
It is true that He created all things, which includes Lucifer and the snake. Why? I don't know. Certainly Martin Luther pointed out that Lucifer is unable to do anything that God doesn't let him do, which is why the prevailing idea that God and satan are somehow evenly matched and playing some kind of cosmic chess game is so, so wrong.
You're right in a way in another respect. If we didn't have the capacity to hate we wouldn't have the capacity to truly love. If the only thing you're capable of is slavish devotion, that's not really true love.
For a guy who doesn't believe, you have some occasional theological insight!I wish I could see something in the old cult, Chris. It's not that I've not been exposed to it enough in my life, I can tell you this for true.
I tried to believe it was all true as a kid, just like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny. I really always wondered about them too, even at a very young age. Yes, the cosmic chess game is a good metaphor for how I look at Christianity, and at the Muslim faith and all others.
One god, playing against himself for an outcome he already knew since eternity began. No winners, no losers. Simply hundreds of thousands of years of pain and suffering for many of our world's previous and present occupants. Both sides of the game think their team is correct. But both teams have the same owner. Checkmate! I defeated myself! Does this mean I won or lost?
"I tried to believe it was all true as a kid, just like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny."
I think right there you've pretty well nailed the problem. I mean, I didn't used to be Christian, and when I wasn't I tried reading the Bible and listening to people talk about and it didn't make any sense to me! My conversion was sudden, and it was from a completely different viewpoint. It was because I became aware of the presence of God. I know, a lot of people claim to have those, and many decide they didn't have those, kinds of supernatural experiences. It gives me a different perspective on things. And very, very smart people in these forums (all of whom are no doubt smarter than I) look at it and can't figure out how people who are as smart as I am (middling) or smarter can believe in this stuff.
I'm rambling. It's late.
There are intellectual arguments I could muster, but the fact is that until I had supernatural experiences (many of them, but I don't mean like out of body experiences) I couldn't see anything in "the old cult" either.Personal experience yes...but you must be open to it. Saul was surprised into yielding.
No and yes. I wouldn't say I was particularly open to it. But it still happened.
To a degree you're right. I wouldn't say I was especially open to it. It happened nonetheless, and I doubt that Paul was all that open to it, either.
I mean open, after the occurence. Once it happens, you could still choose...divine/happenstance. Paul could have said, "i gotta get more sleep"
Well I guess this must be the case for many of you. Did god tell you the bible was his message in pure form? Or has he said anything at all about the bible? Did he identify himself in any manner, or what? Otherwise, how did you distinguish him from any other god? Seriously?
Good question! There are things that have hsppened in my life that make me to know that God is real. When i pulled away from the church i found a joy in seeking in the scrptures myself. I found a lot of inconsistencies in the sermons i heard. After some time, i would receive "revelations" such as the tithing scripture of the OT. Was often quoted by the churches i visited. Then i read gor myself what Jesus ssid about it. The ministers never spoke about that. Most just wanted money, which is another thing the bible speaks against!!! Also, a word of scripture would wiegh heavily on my mind/heart...very often, that same word would be brought up to me out of the blue by someome or some other book that elaborated on the very text almost immediately. I have also been in seversl situstions where i know God must've been involved. Hospital stays, midnight strolls, domestic battery. God has wslked.me through my entire life.
To some extent the old saying, "I can't really explain it, I just knew," goes for my primary experience.
I recently wrote a Hub about my supernatural experiences.
He identified Himself as the God of the Bible. Seriously!Did you consider it might have been Satan instead? Would it be out of character for him to attempt to trick you, Chris?
That very comment kind of proves my own point. If it was Satan, then satan exists, and if he's that kind of guy, then God does too!
And God does use this stuff to His own ends.
Yes, Elvis, Warhol and Einstein WERE real people and people understand that.
No. God alone is uncreated, "from everlasting to everlasting."
Only Yahweh embodies love, to hell for the rest of them
It was intentionally interpreted so by the pope so Spain could use the indigenous peoples of Cuba, and the other Caribbean islands, as slaves. They eventually worked most of them to death and had to start importing slaves from Africa. It was a business--not a moral or religious--decision. The protestants--who disliked the catholic pope immensely--used his decree as an excuse to own slaves themselves.
Wonderfully religious folk, just like those today in the way they manipulate the old novels words to suit their purposes. The more things change.....
Intentionally misinterpreted by Europeans means that the slaves of Biblical times meant nothing to God. You people will say anything to excuse your racist, wife-beating, slave-holding God.
He parted a sea for them to walk across and cared enough about their shoes to dry the ground. Why so hateful, Bud?
The Jews weren't the only slaves. Slavery lasted well into the empire. What is your point, bud?
My point is God loves his children. Even the slaves and he is Supreme judge. As I said before, evil exists. Not everything can be perfect. Sorry, it's complicated. But God knows everything.we cant understand everything either. Our minds can only handle so much.
Tell that to the slaves of Rome. His body was crushed under stone and the whip. The American slaves have no idea. None at all. The white master developed an affinity towards his black slaves. The white slaves of Rome were gutted on the streets - no bond was ever formed. They should teach you this in school. It's not all about Rosa Parks.
What you're saying is that you're ignorant of the world around you and will remain that way because your mind can't handle logical and rational explanations of that world, so instead, you'll embrace a belief in a god and forget about everything else.
You're right, and it's also about the Jewish idea of having a "clear consience," meaning that when you stand before God in judgement, you should have strived in life to be as pure as possible.
Yes, a lot of evil people who would look for a justification used the Bible. And they are burning in hell for it.
Anti-slavery people also used the Bible as justification for opposing slavery. The misuse of the Bible is not the same as the Bible being pro-slavery.
Remember that the Disciples all lived in a time when chattel slavery was accepted and institutionalized in law. They were a small and politically powerless group. The fastest way to a quick death would have been to stand up and yell about slavery. They were not "the church" that is so often cited without qualification.
And besides that, Jesus Himself, living in a country that was basically enslaved by the Roman Empire, preached that the truest and best way to freedom was to love and follow God.
I'm sorry about your father. It is horrible. And it's doubly horrible because so many people who are really interested in truth, love and brotherhood get turned away from the ultimate source of those qualities because of people like him.
It's a darn good thing I have atheists to tell me what I believe.
Or rather, to project beliefs I don't have on me to make me easier to condemn.
But by all means, keep firing away. You show that scarecrow who's boss.Most of you have the grammar of a 21st century mind. Calling me an atheist is such an easy out. Men like you were taught to worship the Id, a cafeteria religion that suits your anti-Old Testament mind. You're not Godly people. Everything you've said elevates you above the weak and most desperate in need of God's grace. Saying the blacks could only withstand the sun indicated you're sick. All of you. And if given power, you'd resurrect the America of old, Puritans fat on control burning witches and whipping the backs off of blacks. It's amazing how confrontation revels your ungodly heart.
What do you expect? Logic from illogical superstitious people? Logic from egomaniacal people who claim to be "The Chosen Ones"? That would simply be illogical.
Well!!! I am glad we're being honest here. I don't wanna burn no witches, whip no backs, or fry with the puritan oil grease. I just want everybody to know that Jesus lives. Through him you can be saved and all you have to do is say yes to God no matter what you've done and receive grace mercy and a new life eventually as he comes in and suffocates the old man, makin' u all new and clean on the inside. In him.
Jesus? Dont you mean Horus? The Christians stole the story from the Egyptians.
Yep, even the Jesus myth was stolen from another religion which predated it by centuries. These folks don't understand the bible is just a collection of old myths from many different religions and gods. Not even as good as the original stories, but the belivers swallow them willingly. There's nothing worse than willful ignorance.
There is noname like Jesus. Lots of imitators. Only one son. Only one God. See, you dabblin' in toomany doctrines. Pick a side. I dont mind you not picking Jesus. I aint mad. God is sad but he knowsnot every one will say yes. His plan stoill goes on.
Pick a side? Thats the problem with religion. It creates us versus them. The story of Jesus is plagiarism pure and simple. Try as you might you cannot rewrite history.
It's the gays that you wish to burn and boil in oil. Yet reality is the constant star. The most beautiful things on earth came from the gay mind. Art, the clothes you wear, much of entertainment - the buildings you live in. God put us here for a reason. The most beautiful minds were gay: Leonardo and Michelangelo. The greatest conqueror, Alexander, slept with men. The three greatest men in history were homosexual. Only Washington stands above them as a heterosexual. And unlike the militant gays of our time, Lincoln loved Mary Todd as his wife and lover. I find no reason to revise history to suit my needs. But it's clear, in this room., the blacks were meant to be slaves.
You are right blacks were meant. Stronger and bigger because of it. No prob. But what is your point about gays? Yes, the gay people I know are lovely. But, they must acjnowledge the truth. ike it or not. Only God can change the mind/heart..
Bigger and stronger? How did Rome build itself? Are you aware of the world prior to "Gone With the Wind?"
Not really. U that old? White people in the 20th century with the ozone hole were much more susceptible. Prob more late noon early eve work. White skin burns in sunlight. Wasnt there a biblical curse that turned a man white???
Wow! That is the most ridiculous thing I have seen yet!!!
I understand your ignorance. Rome was the greatest empire until the Americans. That's 2,000 years, my friend. Rather than propping up artificial heroes like MLK and Rosa Parks, you should learn about Caesar and Augustus. And in case you missed it, the ozone hole was a big lie. I'm arguing with a nimrod and am going to bed.
What about the British Empire? And the Ottoman or Russian or Chinese Empires?
Why do you guys need to lie and make stuff up? And then call other people ignorant? Far as I recall, the British Empire was the biggest ever, and could almost certainly be said to have been more influential than the Roman Empire. I mean - how many people speak Latin?
Talk about uneducated.
Sleep tight - hope that helps.I should put my phone on silent. Are you comparing the British Empire, a former province of Rome and forever isolated after the fall, to the Roman Empire? The British never united its colonies. The occupied peoples never thought of themselves as British whereas Rome was comprised of Romans. Or the Ottoman Empire, which produced nothing but Islamic slaves and sultans who bled the peasants dry? The idiot disciples of Mohammed ultimately contributed nothing to the world. Did you jump in to sound smart? When you graduated high school and college, no one asked how dumb you were?
Yes I am comparing the British Empire to the Roman Empire (previously the Roman republic) and the American Empire (formerly a British colony). Sorry you don't understand why.
At least I graduated high school. Crikey! Did IQs suddenly drop while I was away?The Western world rests on Rome's shoulders. The Roman Kingdom, the Republic and the Empire are ubiquitous worldwide. The Founders modeled almost everything on Rome. Britain structured its military and colonial ambitions from Rome. So what's your point? And I see you dropped the ridiculous Ottomans from your rant. You're arguing with the wrong person, my friend. Try me.
Sorry - you lost me. How is the British influence not comparable? Because some of it's structure was based on a previous Empire? And the Amerikan Empire is greater? Because you said so presumably.
Where is this American Empire again? Oh yes - a former British colony. Why is the Ottoman Empire "ridiculous"? Presumably the various Chinese Empires are also ridiculous? I mean - Chow Mein?
Dear me - no wonder the Amerikan Empire is going to the dogs.It's impossible to educate a man who spells America "Amerika." "Amerika" is a trite expression reserved for those living comfortable lives in homes flooded with food, porn, and air conditioning. Such spelling marks an ungrateful man who'd blame the US before any of its enemies. You'd gladly sympathize with rivals both foreign and domestic.
Explaining the reach of Rome escapes a dense mind. London itself is built on Roman blueprints...as is Paris. Existing in a world of barbarians, Arab savagery and Asian brutality, Rome assumed history's throne. Subsequent empires tried desperately to relive the glory of Rome. The memory of its armies and government set the foundations for our modern world. My mistake was not giving due credit to the British. Unlike the chaotic French, bloody Germans and ruthless Japanese, the British employed an empire that ultimately molded the future. In the great scheme of history, the list is as follows:
I. Rome
II. The United States
III. The United Kingdom
IV. Russia
V. France
Rounding out the top ten...
VI. Spain
VII. Persia
VIII. Babylon
IX. China
X. India
The Ottomans have their honorary position, as the largest Mohammedan empire to include the tyranny of Allah and his barbaric teachings. All resources, knowledge and gold went to the sultan. The Ottoman's claim to fame is geographic conquest alone.Interesting. On the one hand, you are trying to educate me - on the other hand, you admit you were wrong.
I am well aware of the reach of Rome - my issue was with your #2. Odd you think the Amerikan Empire has had more influence than the British. Despite the fact that it is - far as I can tell - headed to be one of the more short lived versions of the paradigm.
What am I supposed to be "ungrateful," for? Big Macs? I expect you have assumed I am Amerikan. N'est pas?
In any case - we have gone a little off topic - this thread is supposed to be about why god hates gay men.Of course Rome comes first. Again, my mistake. After the Democrat/Socialist and ungratefuls destroy America, the Roman impression will eventually resurface. I wouldn't expect an Amerikan to understand the consequences of their treason. They will burn like wood kindling the fire.
One can certainly hope that might be the case.
My old friend, you'll line up for your death shot at some point. You won't live to see what happens next. You're a true ingrate. I'll run for the hills as you greet your executioners as liberators. Ungratefuls such as yourself gorge on the buffet but berate the cook. What exactly are you? How can you live in this world and not understand what it means to be an American? The rest of us will not burn because of your dumbness. You'll die alone among millions.
ExLeftist, I would put the question to you, too. "What exactly are you?"
There is absolutely nothing about you in your Profile. As an "ex," does that mean you are now a "rightist?"
Why do you need to hide under anonymity? Why are you in a forum discussing aspects of homosexuality? Are you gay? Are you out on a limb, afraid to "out" yourself?
Just would like to know, so I can address you as a person.What am I supposed to be ungrateful for again? You will burn because of your own dumbness. I understand what it means to be an Amerikan. Sheeple.
Of course you realize that you have roughly 15 years left under the Affordable Care Act. This has nothing to do with your sixties hatred of America. While you sat in comfort and bitched, the Harvard faculty took over the country. You'll fully understand Amerika in your dumb, depleted years. Fate devours the ungrateful. No one will a shed a tear when the government gives you your shot.
You think I live in Amerika? I can see what is coming. In any case - I don't hate Amerika - I hate what it is becoming. As do you apparently.
Good luck when they come to give you your shot.Now I think I understand what he means by "leftist."
Thought it was political for a moment.I am still going with political. Probably an ex-atheist as well.
God hates gays? Please don't confuse the nation. To my knowledge, God only hates a liar. Truth is important.
Is that so? I understood he hates divorced women preachers as well. Fortunately - we obviously both agree he does not exist - so so worries huh?
I see our issue. You're just too smart for God. The Spirit cannot be rationalized. Our minds are finite. Some, finite-er than others. It takes faith.
Tzaraat. Miriam was afflicted with it for spreading racist gossip about Moses's wife, Tzipora. It vanished after a week of repentance.
Every story you hear or see has been told a million times or more. Ask any author or screenwriter. It has always been the same message, over and over and over. You'd think we would know that.
Probably foretelling. God promised that all would know the truth. You know too.
As a writer, I'd be aware of what came before and look for an out. If you were to see this explanation in film, you'd demand a refund. I'd never profess to know the answer. We have no idea what's out there. But I know from my readings of the Bible, every one of you are going to hell. Both the Old and New Testament demands too much. All of you ignore the Old Testament and only embrace the sappy words of the New. Jesus was a hard fellow - he demanded much. None of you would survive his judgement. You're going to hell.
I was in an accident and died. I was gone for 7 minutes before they resuscitated me. No life flashing before my eyes. No tunnel with light at the end. No hell. It was just like going into a deep dreamless sleep. Blessed oblivion.
No tunnel for me either. See, I had an accident to. collapsed lungs too. But I know, there is a God. No tunnel is metioned in the bible. Maybe it j_st looked like we were dead. God is awesome!
Sorry about your accident. Glad your ok. Even though I like to debate I wish ill will on no one. I was dead though. No breath no heartbeat.
So do you believe you woke yourself? What sustained your life?
Get over it. From dust we came and unto dust we return. From water are we borne, unto the waters we do return. An individual life is but less than the blink of an eye. Plagues which we have brought about upon ourselves, shall become the horns of our demise.
how is "hate the sin" nonsense?
Sin is an activity. It is an activity contrary to the will of God.
-----------------------------------
Jesus did not come to tolerate sin.
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"Go away I tolerate all sin" ? How is that in line with the teaching of Jesus?
(it's not)
Jesus came to heal, to forgive those who renounce sin, to pay an eternal sin debt we cannot pay. Jesus has reedemed us [from that debt] and openned the *potential* for salvation. One cannot be forgiven without admission of fault, renouncing of activity, and a firm amendment to change. Death is a prerequisite of salvation. Are you alive? You are not saved. You are hopefully exerting the effort to follow the path to salvation: not choosing which bits of Christianity are comfortable, but transforming your life, your will, your heart to CONFORM to God's will and be open to cooperating with God's grace to that end.
[Insert natural law discussion here]
Fornication is sinful: sexual activity outside marriage.
Homosexual activity is by definition outside marriage.
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One must NOT tolerate evil.
----------------------------
Sinful acts are evil. One must NEVER tolerate GRAVE evil. Sin with respect to the genesis of life (and foiling it) is GRAVELY sinful. Contraception, female "birth" control [abortifacients], not being open to the gift of children with each sexual act, abortion, each is GRAVELY sinful.
One cannot receive the gift of children in homosexual acts. These are therefore also GRAVELY sinful.
One must love one's neighbors, especially the one's who are difficult to love or in greater need of love and in great need of God's grace.
Love is commanded.
Love therefore is not an emotion -- for to command a feeling would be irrational. Love is an act of will. In so far as one experiences one's acts one "feels" love.
Loving God is cooperating with God in bringing you into conformation with his will in every aspect of life.... love God with your whole mind, whole heart, whole soul. Love God first and best. Love others by challenging them- and helping them to this better cooperation for themselves. If your brother sins go to him, confront him, take him to the elders. As we are all sinful it is not hypocrisy to confront others with grave sin -- especially as grave sin blinds the sinner to his sin, and more so with a habit of grave sin.
If one has homosexual inclinations one is obligated to live a celibate life AND chastely *AS* are *ALL* people in every state of life. Married and single alike are called to live chastely. Suffering homosexual temptations is NOT a sin: indulging the temptation is a sin. The same for heterosexual temptations.
Love the sinner: pray for him, confront him about his sin in KINDNESS and patience, live your own life diligently to the Christian ideal, seek always every opportunity for grace for yourself and for others.Jesus came to give life. His death allowed a bridge to the throne of the father. The people went too far in their interpretation of what should be done with the "sinner". They wanted to stone her. Jesus stepped in with the hypocrite mirror. We should quit it with the pride. God did not put us in charge. He allowed for us each the ability to approach him boldly. People go too far. Jesus never got angry with the sinner.
Were you attempting a refutation? Please quote which part of my comment you take issue.
Intolerance of sin is not stoning the sinner. Which part of my comment did you not understand?"He who is without sin ....... " should badmouth their sister and brother!
Please read the third to last paragraph of
http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2061615
And then make a cogent post otherwise I shall ignore your trolling.God is love. He wants those who suffer in sin, to know that they can trust him withtheir lives. He dont wanna condemn. He wants to save. Babes need milk. They cant chew the gristle of the word in the beginning. I liked your points on homosexuality, it is sin and people should know. God tolerates a lot! His ways are not our ways. He told us his mercy is everlasting for a reason. we should be kind to the sinner, as Jesus was. And let God separate when he returns.
OK ... If this isn't good enough let it be so.
Let me ask you; what if I want to take you before the elders cause I think it should be so, according to what you just said?
who appointed me to be the one to make that determination?Matthew 18:15-17
The Bible is the authority. The Church [brothers and sisters in Christ] agree by Christ's direction in the sited scripture above to determine whether they are being faithful or openly rebellious and causing harm to the Church overall or to members of the Body of Christ...
Christ says what to do pretty simply.
No mystery.So it is up to the discretion of whichever group of people who are the elders of whichever sect/denomination of which we belong to to determine if we are harmonous with the rest of us.
Not really argueing, just seeing that which comes before my eyes, and wondering???Essentially, yes.
The Body of Christ as a whole determines and discerns what is right by God's Word.
If you serve Christ and are incorrectly determined a harm to the Church's members [i.e. sinful influence to adults and children] then you turn to other Churches. [7 or 8 Churches]
The truth will come out in the midst of those who truly serve Jesus Christ.
If it doesn't, you aren't talking to the truth loving children of God anyway.
Which in that case, you'd go find true believers who LOVE GOD and LOVE YOU. [two commandments of God]The bible tells us to study to show ourselves approve. Verify the teachings of every teacher. The Lord gives knowledge of him to all of us. I personally believe the misdeeds of the church was the reason they lost the privelege of final authority of the people. The curtain to the "holy" part of the temple was torn in two after Jesus came. Now open to all who want to know. But, that's my take. Study, and ask God to give you the interpretation, he promisedhe would.
No one. Slippery slope to go to God with someone else's prob when u have your own faults.
I think she did misundertand your perspective on the subject.
Well said up there.Please drop the stone. I aint refutin' nothin'. I am affirming the words of Jesus. Let he who is w/o... People can allow the pride of "doing a great job" to allow themselves to "puff" a little and start with the fingerpointing; thinking they are when they are really nothing. Jesus spoke against it.
genaea, he wasn't being prideful that I can see.
He seems to be doing much better than I in explaining most things, and without jumping off a cliff here, as far as I can tell, I agree.
Jesus did tell us how. Matthew 18:15-17.
And...
Proverbs 27:5 Better is open rebuke than hidden love.Ouch... Im not home at the moment matt 18 escapes me. But I do know that Jesus was great ith expedience. He knew what was needed. Nobody is helped if they run away in fear.
I just want the love and will of the Father in view. I don't matter.
I'm not picking anyone over anyone else. [except God first.. lol]
God loves you and him. And He told me to do the same.I agree no one is helped if they run. But we can't not offend everyone. Christ said offences must come. He said He come to bring a sword not peace.
He does want us gentle, you're right. But not everyone is as good as you are with doing that job.
Everyone has a purpose in the body. You are super good at yours. You can't expect him to understand what you are best at, that is your gift.
And teaching by example is how you taught me.Confirmation again! We both just spoke of the body. for my clarificstion, wasn't Jesus bringing the sword for the church? The lost he came to draw in with mercy, yes???
The sword is a representation of the division to come between believers in Christ being loyal unto death and those who refuse and deny Christ.
Matthew 10:34-37
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. 36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. 37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
I believe the Bible [ Word of God / Word = Jesus ] is referred to as our "sword" for this very reason as it is the dividing line between Christianity and every other belief in this world.
It is the severing sword which guides, divides, and protects us.Ok, ok, it agrees with what we are saying. Jesus came to set apart believer from non-believer. The church of that time was going off track. Rituals and pride was carrying them in the wrong direction. He rebuked the church more than sinners. I still believe that he was speaking in terms of the church. Some could not accept his message because the rituals were crowding out their good sense. The fam ref make me feel that he was meaning the church. just trying to clarify. Your scripture got my study juices flowing.
WELL, I may stink like shit? but I stink less bad as somebody. Let us find them so We can tell them so. OK ?
- you hit the nail on the head Jerami.
This is just something placed on my heart for Christians.
I am not pointing fingers. God says this every day whether you are reading it or not.
And this includes me...
2 Timothy 2:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.Yes! The word! In all thy getting, get understanding. We are making the way clear. They got the word. They got the law. They got mercy. The body of Christ is made of many parts. we've all stood up for what is right. Unseemly is out of the question for me.
Vector. There are many Christians and Jews that sincerely have studied the scriptures; that do shun profane and vain babblings, and as far as they are concerned have rightly divided the word of truth. But because they do not agree with you after all this, you appear to believe they are in error.
It is no credit to us if when we think we have the truth to dogmatically hold our position. The noble thing is to hold our views lightly and always be prepared to modify them when considered against the views of others who may have studied further."Dogmatically" is the important word here.
It was for people against each other, and didn't involve me at all. [wasn't speaking to those disagreeing with me DH]
Peacemaker [or attempting to between Christians]
I'm glad I get to see how you conclude so fast on me and that your conclusions are pretty off. [feels good]
It's cool tho.I wonder if that loose screw of yours has fell out yet or if there is a chance of torquing it down still.. lol
Christians follow the Bible. I was just giving them scripture serpent boy.How u doin?
u got peace that supasses understanding?Ah, your rapier wit simply astounds my humble snake self, Vector. I'm tempted to merely slither away and leave the forums to your words of wisdom. It is obvious to me you are a person of very high intellect and perhaps attended the very best and most heralded Institutes of Knowledge planet has to offer.
ORU or Regency?
Nope. Live in the wilderness with a Droidx - 10 inch blade - and my Bible.
You should come visit. I'd teach you bout life.
Up to you tho. Might not fit your high class fancy.Oh, I might surprise you, Vector. I'm fully trained in using a knife and actually, my main fighting weapon of choice was the knife during my many years of Karate and Kenpo training. I still have the scars on my arm from my own knife because, instead of a straight blade, I chose a long curved blade which often drew blood from my arm because of the particular knife grip required while performing katas and during tournaments.
I also give wilderness survival instructions too, so I could probably teach you a few things you aren't aware of. So, I seriously doubt you could enlighten me very much about either survival, knives, or life, for that matter. I'll bet you're hell on that DroidX, though! Thanks for caring, anyway!
"High class fancy," Wow! How can one person be wrong about so many things? Even I get out of the swamps more than you, it appears!
Next misconception?
Oh. Well I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were rambo, 007, and a university master.
I'm on my tablet at the moment. And when you get here dinners your treat right? [that snake big?]
Swamps isn't wilderness buddy. There's a house.. LOL
And a truck, and computers.. You don't wanna visit?
What are you man.. better than me?
You can bring your big curved knife or whatever. My cheap 10 inch aint got nothing on that fancy thing. It cuts though. No karate here, the animals usually just growl in the snare before I kill'em.. lolOf course you didn't, Vector. One of the first things a "smart" fighter learns is to "know your enemy". Apparently you didn't bother to read my profile before making your poor attempt at an intimidating post to me.
But don't feel too bad about it. Many others have made the same foolish mistake. I always did want somebody to beat my ass, though!
First you have to tell me where you live. I didn't see the info on your profile anywhere. Let me guess though. Florida? You act like you might be a "stand your ground" aficionado.
Some swamps around here have houses in them. I took this photo of one while in the deep swamps Friday.
I've got a rifle Randy. I don't fight anyway. I believe in "love".. [profile]
You don't tell people you have a "knife" to "scare" them.. lol
I meant teach you about the Bible buddyyy.
The Droid and Bible fear tactics where you're from?
NC 25 from the ocean. And the swamps behind me don't have houses.. They have lots of water.No kidding! that was my second guess! I knew it was somewhere near the buckle of the Bible Belt. Yes, rifles are good too. I have 7 rifles, 4 shotguns, 3 pistols, and am a certified sharpshooter with a rifle to boot. Yes, I know you think I'm not telling the truth, but I am. Probably like you, I grew up shooting a rifle. But somehow a knife is more, shall we say, civilized.
My ancestors first came to North Carolina in 1699 and settled on the Albermarle Sound. Small world!
No, I believe you.
Yes, and the knife can do more things than just killing.. lol
I can build a miniature house with a knife.. [medium oak and cordage]
Fire, etc.. you know all that tho. [profile]
And yeah, it's the Bible belt alright, but not many of them that don't sit the fence.Yes, I have great respect for anyone with the ability to use a knife for all sorts of things. I especially enjoy ancient native American survival skills and flint knapping. I'm writing an article now about my arrowhead and projectile point collection from an ancient kill zone on my land. Some are over 13,000 years old.
Yes I know, according to the bible the earth has only been here around 7,000 years, but we'll have to just disagree on that though. But here, take a look at just a few of the points and artifacts from the kill zone. I'll bet you might like these if you enjoy ancient history.
Vector you need to get a job---you have spent a week on this hub arguing with people---you could have learned a foreign language in this amount of time and or accomplished anything worthwhile in all the time you spend arguing with people about your crap and your bible and how many days has it been since you talked about the topic----now you are arguing with a guy about who has the biggest weapons and where you live and all kinds of ridiculous stuff while hiding behind the new age version of the bible---you need a life---you and all the idiots willing to argue with you for days on end need help---seriously, in case you haven't noticed we have huge problems in this world and in our country and if you want something to fill up your days---google Agenda 21 and read the agenda signed by your former President Bush Sr and former President Clinton along with 178 other nations to agree to a New World Order for the world and to agree to depopulate the entire world by 90% by the year 2014---read the tens of millions of websites about the plan to put you into a Halliburton built Fema concentration camp by year's end and then maybe you can fill your days with something substantive and quit harrassing the general public with your useless chatter---you are a nut case and your God and mine cannot and will not save your ass when the United Nations armed forces and the Chinese army show up at your door----
Oh how I agree with you angegirl !
I have just spent a month in the Caribbean. Visited Haiti and Cuba. I have seen the affects on peoples' lives which are caused by differences in history; politics; social structure; religion; corruption; etc.
Amidst it all, I see people trying hard to make a go of this physical world we find ourselves in. The greatest of difficulties, like forced labour, famine, disease, poverty. Earthquakes, lack of education, all sorts of abuse. Some people have the ability to rise above these things. Some use their faith or one sort or another in order to find the courage to keep going regardless. Others have been exploited because of their faith. It's a two-edged sword.
The area of greatest hope which I have seen is the desire of parents, themselves poor, to get their children educated. They will deprive themselves of all luxuries and some of the essentials in life to get their kid (they can usually only afford to support one child, the others also lend to the support) through a good education. With good education, you allow people to make their own choices, then to expand on their education and manage their own lives.
Learning science and technology, how things work and why they work, getting to grips with the wonders of this world, honestly and thoroughly, is one way that people can advance their lives.
Exploitive and doctrinaire religion will often do the opposite - it will drag people backwards into the dark ages.
Victor7 and all like you who cannot get your mind out of that bible, get a life! Please don't dwell on the doctrine and the dogma so much. For many people it is really unhelpful. Get out and do some real helping in a practical way.These posts (this and especially anjgirl) are the reason for this discussion. It was not hard to get side-tracked. Long conv lead t possibly weariness. If the world is depopulatng, those who remain, will need some truth. God is real. Read that! It does not profit u to know the world is depopulating after the people come if ur of the depopulated
Who told you the world is depopulating, Genaea? I swear, you religious people beat all! Do you ever check your facts before posting on these forums? Where do you get all of this nonsense from?
Angie girl (not sure if spelled right) posted that info in her very rude comment to vector7 a few posts back. Are you only spesking to me bcuz you need to b close to God and im as close as u think u can get?
No, if I wanted to be as close to god as I could get, I would certainly not be conversing with a self proclaimed Christian, especially a Baptist, for goodness sakes! I've not met one yet who knew much more than what they were told as children. And they certainly aren't interested in discovering if what they were told was even true in the first place.
genaea
Lad rats scientist tested , shows when rats become over populated and become crowded together they are more criminally active, rats have less care for the young , kill and rats create illnesses. .
Since Human's life expectancy is in the decline and the USA is more like Sodom and Gomorrah it's time to stop over populating our Earth
The happiest Countries in the world are Countries that have more space per person and less population .More often Christian are told to be fruitful and multiply. The greatest destructive thing human's are doing is over populating earth. It harms millions of other species, it harms the Air, the Water. Religious groups have over polluted, created most wars and jails, and over polluted the earth. Most Christian believe they are personality going to heaven, mean while most Christian think most people on earth will wind up in Hell. How very nice of them,(?) yet not kind
How dose any of this got to do with gays?
Gay couples can't make a babies and over populate us
Might wanna leave your snake.
Might mistake him for wild when I get hungry.No....please stop it....you're frightening me!
Let me guess! I'll bet your real name is Billy Badass, right?
All the gay bashing and what not, was originaly enforced by a nation that once partook in all things carnal, including children of either gender. So before you follow a stupid little book, try living in a world with real people.
What? Are you saying that ancient Israel was into child molestation on a massive scale? Got any documentation?
Yes, 100.000 child molestation Court Cases involving USA clergymen
Never mock a bald headed Priest, or a bears come out shredding you to deathYou're mixing your history and your metaphors.
Catholic clergy are not ancient Israel. The clergy should be held to account. But did ancient Israelite priests or kings engage in mass child molestation. That's what he said. Can he prove it?
And no, it doesn't pay to mock bald-headed prophets of God living 5,000 years ago, especially if you hated God to begin with.Remember every word in the bible is true, God helped the priest kill those children.
It's late, I'm not that smart, and you've lost me.
What priest?That shocked me too. Who knows why God sent that bear to rend those children who taunted his messenger? But that is not going to keep me from loving him. It's not my business. Those were his creations, he deals as he wishes. Ours is not to reason why...
Luke 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer Little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
He had 42 little children horrendously torn apart by bears just because of some childish mockery!!!
2Ki 2:23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth LITTLE CHILDREN out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
2Ki 2:24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of forest
Nothing makes a Christian madder than hell, then taking out dozens of negative quotes from the BibleMad? Not me
as i said, i was shocked too, and i dont know why that happ. But 42 kids scteaming insults os not "coming unto me" maybe the priest was frightened. But i don't know. God is still my hero. I know that God was very no nonsense back then. Remember the couple that fell dead in the church for lying? I can speculate, but why?because maybe that wasn't God's doing at all, but a human misinterpretation of the real God.
Most likely
Bears can be trained killers and those testy pest kids asked for it, well
Not my logicIt happened. I cant really explain why. But i do know for certain that they have nothing to do with my day to day living. Jesus spoke about your petty picking at God's word as a way to confuse what is expedient. but, i promise that God's word does not return unto him void. You have what you need,. Now, just choose.
Well, again, faith is key. Faith. I cannot state that misintetpretations don't occur but, to me sll the words parable and actual are real. Misunderstandings occur. But, when you love God with all heart/soul, he covers, corrects, and walks you through life. If you misunderstand, he eventually speaks... Blessed assurance
The issue is not whether he speaks to you, it is what many religious zealots choose to hear. They spread hate in his name and when called upon to defend their assertions or beliefs, they hide behind 'the word of God'
This is the fundamental issue with religion vs. homosexuality, no one is willing to stand behind their own opinions.Hi!
the way i see it, the "zealots" will be dealt with if they are wrong. God does not tolerste the changing of his word for personal agenda. Well, period. He says that not everyone who cries Lord, Lord is his. It is your personal responsibility to get to know him. He ssys that. You must answer for you, not ANYONE else. homosexuals are covered if they walk with him. He corrects you. He does the"white-washin". I am covered, ONLY because i walk with him. I got plenty to be grateful for being forgiven for, everyday. Still being forgiven... I love much! Read why...Well, I would be more inclined to believe you if there was some proof to that fact. If I could be assured some of the most vile of homophobes spreading hate throughout the world in 'the name of God' would be the first to be 'dealt' with.
It is better for you to have a mill$tone tied about your neck and be cast into the sea, than for you to offend the "least" of his. Did you know the bible says that?
10% of the world population is Gay
Why not have God's use his magic wand turn Gays back into straight people, where everything God created is perfect. If God is allowed to murder us, he can easily change sex relationships
Then pick a fight club for these rehab gays to belong to, and then, join the forces of hating other religions with greater passion.Wow...i hear pain. Sorry. God loves you. He is not out to get you. he is waitimg for you with arms open wide. He does't want any to parish. but he made only a few puppets. We get to choose to come to him "as you are". He has no hell for those who sincerely love him. He knows if your hesrt says yes. Man does not understand you like he does. He does not think the thoughts that we think. He has rest for your weary soul. Just call him humbly, as a child crying to his father. Because of Jesus, you have that right. all this is in there.
What kind of puppet did God make, meat head puppets or Presidents puppets?
My happiness scale is 8 or 9 and pain or suffering scale is about 1 or 2. In order for me to love God, I must love everyone as they are God. Even Hitler dose not deserse to be torture for enterity in Hell in which Hitler thought he was serving God (Yahweh) anyways.
If I were gay or Muslim, would Yahweh love me less or parish me to hell? Thank God we finally have changes our ways of thinking about Black people. Why not? they are the true Adam and Eve that began our human race 200,000 years ago. By the way, did you think I was gay?
Yahweh would not be loving and kind enough for me.
If you don't love Yahweh more than all of your relationships, Demon will rip you up OR burn you for ever in hell's afterlife
All because God loves you, wow, what an insane idea
Your the best God!!! Up ^ or Down >?Think spiritually. God is giving you everything you need to mske sn informed decision for yourself. God is real. He has more love beneath his wing thsn you could ever imagine! Now ive been there
Few people have the imagination for reality and logic and reason can die off quickly. Your knowledge has limits but your imagination dose not. Reason respects differences, and imagination has a perceptible likeness of things. It’s an act not of reason but an intuition, Imagination is the eye of the soul and the voice of the daring. If there is anything Godlike about God it is that. When he dares to go beyond his wildest dreams, he can imagine everything. Spirituality is the unknown with the source of good intention. The Bible is an ancient spiritually
Im sorry, my brain is doing circles on this one. Please, slowly this time.
You are wasting your time. "God" ONLY exists in the mind of those who have stopped thinking rationally. You will never convince her of this. Stuck in a groove There is no need to fear that "hell" they speak about. There is nothing after death. If there is a "hell," it is created today by our ignorance and lack of personal responsibility. The "faithful" have created your anxiety and turned it against you.
It's nice to be sure of something. You can't just let anybody whisper in your ear. You must decide. Your brain can become tossed to and fro by wavering from truth to truth. the bible says to guard your heart. Jonny, you cannot possibly believe there is nothing after death. Youhave been searching for answers it seems extensively. What does it profit if your heart still feels empty? I got a filler. Wanna hear about it?
You have got it all wrong. Don't kid yourself. There is NOTHING after your death except in the lives of bacteria, insects, etc., which benefit from the bonanza feed (if no one burns your body, of course.) I do not need to search any further.
I 100% know that what you are doing and saying is rubbish.The physical body is alive and then it dies.
There is death after life!
The spirit, the soul, goes on forever and when the physical body dies it will spend eternity either with or without God.
There is life after death!
It is safe to say, we really do not known where our energy soul transforms into when it moves in to the spiritual world.
Most people agree there is God within our World and Universe, yet most people in this world, do not agree that the only God is Yahweh
The ones who claim they know God completely are the ones that become more elusive and delusional about God
I have faith in the force that creates life and sustains us. To me that's the true God. All religious books were written by men who felt at the time they were inspired by God, but the true God does not live in a book or in Heaven. The true God lives inside of all things that are part of life. God is the balance of all things - the one that gives and takes. But having faith in a supreme being means that you trust its nature. And half of the things that the bible talks about makes you question God's nature. And then you realize that these were men writing history (which reminds me of the dilemma I've always had with History books... I could never get why it was always the Indians' fault!) And if you're one step above the rest then you realize that you're looking for God in all the wrong places. There are some beautiful messages in the bible, but you must take it all with a grain of salt... understanding that:
1. It was written and compiled by men.
2. It was written in accordance to the times and culture that these men lived in and recognized as 'acceptable'.
3. Even Jesus (being the purest form of encarnation) would have been influenced by the life he had to live. If he had encarnated in the present time, we would have seen a completely different Jesus.Wonderfully written, Klara, thank you. THAT is the sort of Supreme entity which I can and do aspire to.
You mentioned Balance. Yes, I am always trying to balance my life, my understanding, what I accept and don't accept, ALL THE TIME. Except there are times when I just need to rest in "the moment," take stock and usually say, "Wow! - I am here, what a wonderful world!"
Walking amongst the filth and squalor of the streets of Haiti last week, I still found beautiful people, continuing to live their lives despite all their difficulties. I know they (most of them) have beliefs and superstitions which help them continue, despite the despair which could easily envelope them. I do not deny them that hope for one moment. It is not for me to judge them, not my right. It does not mean I have to "get in on the act" of that religious side. Deep respect allows me to follow my own choice whilst at the same time accepting their choices.
Again, Balance - is that right?Yes, I believe it's all about balance. We are all walking different paths. Even the agnostics and the atheists are on a path themselves, not in search of God, but in search of answers to why they're here. And because we're all part of creation and we're all here with a purpose, we're all connected and we all want the same thing - Balance. What makes us different is the means to reaching our goal. Some rely on scripture, some turn to science, some try to build a bridge between the two. But again... that's looking for the answers in the wrong place. Sometimes it's best to live the moment, content, unpretentious, and completely ignorant to what lies behind the obvious scenery we see before our eyes. By living this way, you'll fulfill your purpose without distractions - these questions that will never be properly answered because we're simply not meant to know.
Sorry so late, i got busy. I believe that Jesus came to fulfill the law, which does not change. Real world application of the messages in the word still work and always will. It's just what i believe. How could Jesus be diff? He wss the epitome of his father, who doesn't
genaea, please get your broken record player fixed, yet you mean well.
klarawieck you make good sense, plus +++ On balance
I was talking about Rome... If you think you know what Rome was about, you should read more.
Ah, Rome. Yeah, a lot of bad stuff happened at Rome. The church didn't actually get into the act for several hundred years.
I've read plenty about Rome. When you said the book was propogated (I don't remember exactly what you wrote, but I think it was something to that extent) by a country that practiced child molestation, I thought we were talking about Jewish history at that point. Sorry I got confused!
- klarawieckposted 13 years ago0
You guys are boring me to death!
I'm BORED people! Drop it and talk about something substantial... like... spinach dip and nachos.
- jonnycomelatelyposted 13 years ago0
I replied to Melissa because I know her faith and beliefs are full of respect for me and my beliefs. She does not try to evangelize me and change me or my orientation. She does not claim to have a god who judges me. Very different from you and your attitude.
If you were to confine your own beliefs to your own life, and not imply that I must take on your beliefs in order "to be saved," then I can have similar respect for you.
I do not accept the existence of a god as you suggest. I am not under judgment from such a theoretical being. Therefore I do not need you exaltation upon my life. My choices are my business and none of yours. If you can respect me by not declaring my position "sinful," or anything like that, then I will respect you. This is probably the most difficult thing for you to do. You seem so steeped in your religious attitude that my request will probably be denied. If that is the case, don't even bother yourself with me or my postings here.
If on the other hand, you can amend your attitude, then welcome.She is a baptist JCL. You can't realize the amount of indoctrination she went through as a child, or as an adult for that matter. I experienced the program first hand. Fortunately, I never fell prey to the efforts to make me swallow pure fiction as reality. She cannot help it.
Using "text talk" on the forums is frowned upon, Genaea. There's no official ban on doing so I'm aware of, but we do have some standards as writers. This is true even on the religious threads where bad grammar and spelling are usually accepted as the norm.
Well!!!
You just have to get me on something, huh? I most sincerely apologize. I am on my phone, it's not a very good one. So, I struggle. But know this: I will be doing my best to correct it. I would hate for you to frown on me, Sir.Personally I don't care, Genaea. It doesn't reflect on me either way. Just thought someone should tell you. Write at your own level.
Sorry. I have a great amount of respect for you. Didn't mean to appear that i didn't. I understand your frustration with my spiritualiy. It frustrated me too. i heard so many things growing uo in church that were not close to accurate!! I felt so betrayed! I said to myself, i said, "self, you gotta get the truth!" I intentionslly sought out the red words in the scriptures first. I ju$t wanted to know what Jesus daid. Th&t made me hungry for more. I flipped, and i flipped. I prayed and i prayed. One day, those words spoken to me by prophets, all my life, began to become reality. I thought thay mere man could not have known that so long ago! God is real. I sought the scriptures with a vengence. It all makes perfect sense. See, when u read looking for errors, you find them. Those works u cited are bound to have some inaccuracies. Sorry about al the typos, im on a phone. The format stinks. I'll switch to mobile version soon.
also, u replied thank you to melissa after the comment i made about God loving us all snd myself, never bashing anyone. God is not pleased when we turn his children away. We All have sin.
Surely, you aint afraid of being called sinful. Why wud u???
- jomineposted 13 years ago0
"genaea wrote:"
I can never "think differently" than the bible
Why can't you be honest and say you cannot think but can only quote bible? After all you "believe" lying is sin. Let her talk on. She will deter more people from Christianity with her reasoning than any unbeliever ever could.
- janikonposted 13 years ago0
I'm out of here. Thanks for the debate, Genaea. I'm sure it's taken, at least, three years off my life.
There is another article about the response that a mother who approached homosexuality very much like ost of the people in here. She sent in a reply to the man who wrote the article "I'm Christian, Unless You're Gay."
I'll post a snipit along with the URL.
http://www.danoah.com/2012/04/a-teens-b … e-gay.html
"Hello Mr. Pearce,
I am the Christian mother of a 15 year old teenage boy and about a month ago he came home from school with a copy of your article “I’m Christian, unless you’re gay”. The teacher gave his class a homework assignment to read it and write a 500 word essay about “what it meant to them”.
He came home and showed me your article and asked me what I thought about it. I read just the title and became furious at his teacher and at you (even though I know you had nothing to do with her handing out the assignment). Anyway, I confiscated it from him and told him he wasn’t to do anything with it till I had a chance to read it first.
And then I got madder and madder as I read it as I felt like it was a direct attack against our beliefs and our Christian religion and that it was promoting homosexuality, a practice that around here is a huge “sin”.
I gave my son an earful about homosexuality and God and told him that he could tell his teacher that he would not be participating and if she had a problem, she could come talk to me and then I threw the article in the trash. My son didn’t say anything just walked into his room and shut the door.
Long story short, a couple hours later it was supper time and I still hadn’t seen him come out of his room. I didn’t expect it to be that big of a deal to him but I went and knocked and told him to come out, he didn’t answer so I opened his door and he wasn’t there, he had left the house and gone somewhere. Of course I got more mad and tried to call him but he sent it to voicemail. I sent him a text and told him he better get home and he was grounded.
This is the text he sent me in return: “I don’t care. I’m at my friends house writing that essay and I’m not coming home till you read it.”
I think you would have seen steam coming out of my ears if you saw me. I started preparing to go talk to the school the next day. I sent a few angry texts to my son that he didn’t answer. I got the article out of the trash so I could take it into the school and get this teacher fired. My anger got a little out of control and while I was sitting there fuming and planning what to do, I got another text from my son that said “Just emailed it. Love, Jacob.”
My son’s name is not Jacob, and it took me a minute to realize that he was talking about your friend Jacob in your article..."ATW, thank you so much for sharing that. I am without words.
Did you read the whole article? It was amazing. I wish that all of America's Christians with an ounce of feelings could read it.Some of them would still be angry and yelling, as the guy who started the whole thing posted examples of, but many more people will realize and have realized just how harmful their words are. I believe jesus said that the greatest commandment was "to love your neighbor as yourself." Maybe it's because many of them don't love themselves that they treat people this way.
ATW, I'm pretty sure you're one of very few people who actually read the article before commenting on it.
Thanks live longer. I usually try to.
Well isn't this a lively discussion. One side is going to be on the ride side of history... you know which side that is.
What bothers me about many ideas and beliefs of todays "christians" about homosexuality, enemies, and other people aroundthem is that "they" do not follow the teachings of Jesus Christ. It is better to live it than just say that you are Christian.
- Rad Manposted 13 years ago0
None of your arguments matter now that Obama thinks it's Okay!
President Obama is trying to make history and unfortunately he is using every possible tactic he can and w=one of them is to befriend every organization he thinks will gain him the votes he needs to do a second term. The Republicans are doing all they can to make it seem like his election was a fluke and only with a second term can he disprove that ridiculous idea. By the way he is doing a great job even if his oponent will know acknowledge is accomplishments.
LoL, I made a president Obama meme today.
http://static.quickmeme.com/media/social/qm.gif
- Motown2Chitownposted 13 years ago0
"If christian thought is towards forgiveness, oneness with creation, love and understanding, then this alone would prevent any individual from making judgment on behalf of god. "
This is indeed Christian thought on the matter. Unfortunately, not all of us Christians think clearly in the presence of what we don't understand. And rather than give that confusion to God to turn to understanding, we throw it violently at others in the hope that it will somehow go away.
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