This question, ONCE properly answered and understood, will FOREVER change your opinions regarding the Time Honoured Subject of LIFE AFTER DEATH.
The challenge is for YOU to PROVE you have NO soul, no spirit, and THEREFORE, when you die THAT'S IT - NOTHING afterwards....
Provide your detailed evidence for the non-existence of your PERSONAL spirit man or woman, living in your body for a Season.
As a soul ABLE to prove the Opposite of this IS Indeed TRUE (absolutely Gospel), my personal starting Point is HEREWITH below.
Where exactly is YOURS ?????? ?????? ??????
† Genesis 2 : 7 †
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground,
and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life;
and man became a living soul."
† Ecclesiastes 3 : 21 †
"Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,
and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?"
† Ecclesiastes 12 : 5 - 7 †
"Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high,
and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish,
and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail:
because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:
Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken,
or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
As any debater knows it is night impossible to prove a negative, the burden of proof lies on the person who makes the assumption, you assume there is a spirit even though you cannot observe it, I assume nothing because I cannot observe anything, the burden of proof lies on you to prove there is a soul not the other way round.
Please. I know of no such rule. I'll debate the negative if I can support it. Hello? You don't have to prove anything in a debate, only win it. You are dancing around the fact that the point is mute. Man not only has a spirit. Man is a spirit, who has a body.
We all have much to learn. Some more than others.
You have to prove something exists before you can prove whether or not you have it. You can't prove that the soul or spirit exists, there fore you can't prove whether or not you have it either. The whole subject of this thread is such that it can't be done either way.
A "Forum Frog" with a big mouth told me.
There were no Hubs, only lonely croaking.
So, you have no evidence whatsoever and prefer to solicit childish responses.
You know now! Think about it. The burden of proof always lies on those making a claim. There is no way to logically prove a negative.
In a debate, you have to prove nothing. You present the the most convincing and persuasive argument. By your assertion, you have painted yourself into the corner, and you aren't even out of the blocks. Your king is already in check because of your first brash move.
You have determined to make your stand on an absolute that does not exist. Your house is built on sand.
Oh yes, totally convincing and persuasive argument.
Did you hear a Forum Frog? I think I did.
Ribbit . . . ribbit . . . ribbit!
Seriously dude, you really need to grow and stop acting so childish.
I know you all like to pretend you are debating here. But what you are actually doing is arguing. I'm afraid you do have to provide proof if you are going to state there is, or is not, a human soul.
It doesn't matter how eloquently one might speak. Without cold hard facts, you are bandying about opinions. And you can't 'win' the argument with an opinion.
Give me a break. What does ditty wa ditty mean? Prove it. We can not make a determination without proof. Whoa is me!
Why can't we just be friends?
I'm your friend, little guy. I'm a bit of a fan. You seem to have the atheists on the ropes and irritated.
But, it's all yakking (all the way around) without proof.
Do you guys not understand that proof is opinion? One of the best examples was the O.J. Simpson trial. What was proof of guilt to the DA was proof of innocence to the jury.
There is no such thing as irrefutable proof because there is always someone who won't accept it. Proof is only proof if you believe it.
So why do you keep asking for proof? What is the point?
Here is a clue: it is not about proof and evidence. It is all about reason and rationality. And I offer no proof of that claim, so you'll have to reason it out for yourselves.
Sorry. Opinion is opinion. Not much else. It only serves as proof to the person who holds that opinion. It doesn't serve as fact to anyone else.
If it were possible to reason a way to only one answer, we'd all come to the same conclusions. There is a lot of wiggle room in reason and rationality. Reasonable people do not always agree. It is unreasonable to expect them to.
You are right. There is no worthy endeavor where
the heart and imagination do not factor in.
I agree. What we imagine to exist on a cosmic scale does provide a window to our hearts. That’s why I don’t see atheism in the way it is shown by the militants here on the internet as ever being a viable alternative school of thought for the lion’s share of humanity. It’s so dead and void of life.
I'd need proof positive before I would ever accept most of their assertions.
Don't confuse the anger of militant atheists with the behavior of the rest of us. Quiet atheists are legion, but -- because they are quiet -- few notice them. Quiet Christians are likewise ignored, whereas angry Christians -- who you see on the Internet nearly as often as you see angry atheists -- draw all of the negative attention. The cosmic world that I imagine is rich, deep and fulfilling, just minus the Judeo-Christian god. My cosmic viewpoint contains the possibility of myriad other alien intelligences, but it doesn't depend on them for wonder, for joy, for mystery, or for love.
Yes, that is the usual misunderstanding of believers who embrace myths and superstitions, and who are ignorant of the world around them.
The real world is so full of interesting things that are well beyond inspiration compared with the ridiculous nonsense believers spew.
Sorry, are you a fan of his because he is immature and childish and that's what you perceive as having "the atheists on the ropes"?
That certainly says a lot about you.
No. The point is both far ends appear to have one agenda. To irritate the other far end. You guys may use different tactics, but the desired result appears to be the same. He is definitely achieving that result, judging from the militant atheist responses.
Yes, I have seen a lot of misunderstanding on your part in that regard, in which you assume irritation is the agenda.
Yes, I have also seen believers who continually claim atheists here are militant, despite the fact they are constantly insulted personally, are told they burn in hell for eternity and are vile evil creatures by the very same believers.
Interesting, coming from a hubber who assumed I was emotional because I deemed one of your comments asinine. Do you think it is possible that you have, once again, misread the exchange?
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but did WD refer to hell? Did he call you vile? Has he offered nothing but insults in response to attempts at intelligent discourse? (if you answered yes to any of those, please point out the post and I will admit I am wrong in assuming you are making things up at this point)
If the point of debating is to "win" rather than honestly explore the truth or falsity of the issue at hand, then you are correct.
Well, it depends on the debate I suppose. And the people having it. One would hope that on an important issue at least, it would be about finding the truth.
Maybe you don't understand debate. Besides, there is no winning a debate against the fact that Man is a spiritual being. If you want the truth, then realize it.. Man has no spirit? That is preposterous. Have you ever seen a man die? That isn't proof enough?
It is a song about a rose, or maybe the shadow of a rose.
It isn't any proof at all, it's pure unfounded assertion based on ignorance.
I understand that debate is argument in a formal style, and that this formal style often involves intellectual bullying, mockery, and theatricality. Virtually any type of behavior is permitted as long as it enables winning. However, debate doesn't have to be engaged that way. The alternative -- a formal commitment to dispassion, a rigorous attention to logic and reason -- is hard work. I understand entirely why it is seldom employed.
Well, it is plain by this comment that you have little-to-no experience with death. Tell me, what are the signs of eminent death? Can you tell me the changes that occur a month out? How about the final 72 hours?
I see death on a constant basis - it is a purely biological event. The consciousness slips away as the body diverts its remaining energy into keeping the heart, lungs, and brain stem alive and the body continues to live until the energy can no longer provide enough fuel for cellular function and the breathing stops and the heart stops.
There is no whoop-de-doo moment of sprit separating from body. It is all quite matter-of-fact and unstoppable.
You people who hope and dream about miracles are simply children pissing your pants because you are scared to face reality without superdaddy to hold your hand. And your beliefs cause unnecessary conflict and emotional harm.
How so? That is a poor bit of analysis. Give it up junior. You can't hang.
You are totally clueless. Go play with the kiddies. All you know how to say is "Halleleujah, I believe!". Well, whoop-da-de-doo-da for you. Why don't you learn some reasoning skills while you're not doing any other type thinking?
You answered not one of my questions, wiseguy - tell me how you know someone is going to die within 72 hours. Or tell me what happens to a terminally ill person a month or so before death.
You're the expert bubba - enlighten us with your acumen.
Being clueless or having sufficient reasoning skills are completely off point there, AKA Winston.
It isn't about those 2 relative things at all because they are not required in this instance. What is required, is an imagination, a desire for something more to this world than just live-get old-die-cease to exist-scenario.
There is science, yes. But even before that, eons before that, it was always about imagination and desire. The imagination spawns the idea, and desire causes its attainment, without those 2 extremely important details mankind would still be in caves.
Likewise, there were always those cynics who mocked and laughed at the few world-changers who at the time only had imagination and desire. How dare they believe in something more, when there is no evidence. It needs to be proven and tested, blah blah, pessimism, hopelessness and confusion is what that equals, nothing more, nothing less.
All the great people throughout the ages, the ones who ushered in this technologically advanced age we are enjoying now had imaginations, hope and desire.
At one time, the world was thought to be flat, flight thought to be impossible and projection of images and sound ? Those things were unthinkable to the flock, they would have settled for a horse and cart for transportation, a letter and messenger for communication but they were saved. The few with hope, imagination and desire for change and progress pushed on fervently and did what was thought impossible.
Yes, there is no proof. There was never any proof, only insubstantial evidence and dreams.
That is what mankind needs, hope, imagination, desire, dreams. Without those we will go nowhere. We will stagnate.
This is why I believe in a soul, that there is far more to life and after life than meets the eye. The sheer amount of literature on the subject alone, some of it thousands of years old goes some way to showing that it is most likely. Why, in an age where paper,wax or whatever writing materials they had were so rare would our scholars and teachers write about such a topic with such strong faith? Maybe because its true.
Yes, you are right. It is speculation, still.
I prefer to have imaginaton and faith that there is far more to life than just live-get old-die-cease to exist forever.
There is a soul.
You are stepping into the response to the claim that was made that watching a human die validates the idea of a soul (I paraphrase). What I wrote had to do with asking for some validation of how versed the claimant is on dying, as I myself am highly versed.
You want to believe in a soul because ancient ignorant people thought the wind was a god and the breath of man was related, knock yourself out.
I fully understood what you mentioned earlier, I was taking a slightly different path, seeing as you seem to have a mind utterly devoid of imagination or creativity. I don't see how, seeing as the soul is invisible, that one could tell you there is a soul by looking at someone dying. Try a different path.
Those people who you claim were ignorant are the ones that somehow managed to bring us to where we are today. Such ignorance led to such advancement. I think not.
The Egyptians worshipped cats yet somehow, despite being ignorant as you say, they built structures which are beyond our capabilities today. The glorious pyramids, which once again required imagination and faith. A belief that anything was possible.
The greeks, the Romans, the druids of ancient britain all believed in dieties and worshipped wind, invisible people in the sky etc BUT look at what they achieved. Without them, today we would be living a very different kind of existence. A moot point, indeed!
If that is all you have, then you might as well just go away because you are making yourself look foolish.
Ancient ignorant people, haha, more like modern ignorant people, (like you).
Imagination is what makes us human, is what allows us to advance so quickly. People believed in wind, air gods etc. That step was required in order to reach the point we have, it is called evolution, evolution of the mind which would be impossible without the ability to imagine, to dream and to mold and fashion new and wonderful technologies from those dreams.
If you wish to continue being more ignorant than the ancients, knock yourself out buddy.
WAIT WAIT you mean the same advances that religious people particularly Christians did so much to prevent and delay, imagination is not part of an immortal spirit it is just a grand part of our psyche, just because something is amazing does not mean it is supernatural.
I'm not even christian, i'm catholic. I don't follow my religion either.
I said nothing of supernatural. I did say that although there is no proof that we are souls inhabiting bodies and we leave them when the body dies, those who imagine and intuitively feel there is a soul, are quite normal to do so. In fact, as I mentioned, it was imagination that brought mankind forward, not cynicism and a constant need to refute everything.
Cynics think they are doing the world a favor by attacking anything they deem to be outside the realms of normal science and its laws. The truth is they waste precious time doing that, while those with a pair of cahonas and an imagination take mankind to the next level.
Golly gosh you Catholics are good at denying reality. If not for us cynics - we would still be burning witches and thinking the earth was flat.
Might want to do a little research before sounding off - you would not come across as so uneducated.
False dichotomy. There is no conflict between cynicism and imagination. The conflict is between critical thinking and magical thinking.
Magical thinking requires no imagination - merely acceptance of cultural constructs like ghosts and deities and miracles. It takes imagination to figure out that disease is caused not by demons and bad humors, but by microbes. It takes imagination to look at the moons orbiting Jupiter and conclude that the Earth is not the center of the Universe. It takes imagination to watch a psychic and figure out that she's just cold reading.
Cynicism, in my opinion, is to simply wave one's hands in the air and say "I don't know, therefore magic!" It is also a form of cynicism to persist in believing the magical explanations for all of these even after critical thinking has offered a more logical one.
In a sense, you're right. Humans have a natural tendency toward magical thinking, or at least incorrectly assuming agency in natural events. This Hyperactive Agency Detection Device no doubt served us well in the Rift Valley -- assuming that the rustle in the grass is a hungry lion is a better survival strategy than assuming the rustle is the wind. In modern society, however, this magical thinking is holding us back.
Mark Knowles, rather than insult me, why don't you add something of note to the discussion?
Let me repeat this - I AM NOT FOLLOWING MY RELIGION
I was baptised but have never set foot in a church, nor have I read a single page of the bible.
If not for cynics? More like, if not for those with a desire to have progress and growth for mankind by exploring every possible avenue despite the mocking cynics who harry them all the way.
Please, this isn't about research, it is about common sense. It can also be flipped both ways, therefore this could go on forever.
It was those with imagination and desire to advance the species that got out there and found that the world was round. It was also them, people like Martin Luther King Jr that envisioned a world where men were equal. That required going against all those cynics who said black people were inferior.
Call me uneducated if you must. I'm sorry you feel that way but I have to voice my opinion when I disagree with something.
"hope, imagination, desire, dreams" are great things, I agree. But wishful thinking regarding the existence of a soul does not make it real.
I agree, it doesn't.
It can't be proven at this time.
There is something innate in man that causes him to yearn for more. Some go the way of science, others spiritual or religious.
I have gone the way of the spiritual. I believe there is more than meets the eye. That's all.
And you think believing in majik is the sort of thinking that means you have got balls and imagination?
I never said 'I' had the balls or imagination. Read it again.
It is merely an opinion. Don't feel like you have to 'put me in my place.'
It isn't magic that is holding people back. It is greed and selfishness that holds us back.
There have always been believers of magic/majik, religious believers and scientific believers and they all served a purpose.
I don't see how believers of 'magic' are holding the world back.
I see a world where we are so busy creating new technologies and toys to keep ourselves happy with, that we forget that many of those toys are destroying our world.
War caused by greed is holding us back
How many diseases has magic cured?
How many technologies has magic invented?
How many societal ills has magic solved?
How many lives has magic saved?
How has magic ever advanced our understanding of the world around us?
None of these things are contrary to the fact that Man has a spiritual element to his being.
The spirit wonders.
"The Road to Matapalo" - Acrylic Painting by WD Curry 111 (book illustration 2011)
Framed prints available . . . if you were wondering.
And, what purpose has magic and religious belief served mankind?
Really? Do you live in a cave with no light or heat? Do you consult a book of magic or go to a doctor when you are ill? Do you not realize that every single convenience in our world was the result of science and not magic?
Some serious hypocrisy there, dude.
You are just twisting my words, Mark.
Believing in Majik is not tantamount to having balls and an imagination.
Why are you so aggressive towards me?
Scott, you raise some excellent points.
In the first place, all I was trying to say was that without imagination, mankind would not have progressed as far as it has.
In regards to the magic you speak of, there are many out there who believe in it and live by it, I am not one of them.
Personally, the reason I believe we are souls inhabiting these bodies is because I WANT it to be so, I imagine it to be so because that is who I am. After all I have read and studied, philosophy, new age thinking books, supernatural events, etc, and because of certain experiences in my life I have chosen this path, even though I may be ridiculed. I am happy with it.
I hold nothing against any other who believes differently to me because that is the beauty of being human, our ability to analyse and choose despite what science says is correct and logical.
For me, not necessarily for you or most others, life is more colorful and enjoyable this way. The mystery. The wonder. The hint that there could be something more that gives life more meaning and purpose instead of just being a random accident.
There is no hypocrisy there.
They HAVE all served a purpose for mankind.
Unity was created from those ancient beliefs.
They brought man together in groups and helped to create a more harmonious way of life.
Religion brought men together.
Magic brought men together.
Science brought men together.
Modern day earth is leaning more towards technology and science and those two are bringing humanity together.
That is what I meant.
Any cause that brings humanity together serves a purpose and is right.
No, religions have divided people in tribal groups, all hating and despising the other religious groups to the point of murdering them, all because they believed something different than them.
That would be far more accurate.
Odd. How is coming together and wiping out anyone who does not follow these beliefs "right."?
I really think you need to do some research into the history of and deeds perpetrated by your majikal belief system before spouting such things.
No, it isn't more accurate.
Religion both brought us together and divided us.
As has technology and science.
There are two sides to every coin my friend.
Religion has united millions -It has also destroyed millions
The belief in magic and gods also brought different clans and groups together under one banner - It caused war too
Science has saved many lives and allowed us to easily connect with one another - It has also caused countless deaths, many many more than either of the other 2.
No, Mark Knowles.
Once again, you twist words.
I am neither an atheist nor religious. I haven chosen to walk a path between those two opposing parties.
I seek only peace. I do not seek to subvert anyone over to any belief system or cause.
I never said that wiping people out was 'right'. Show me where I said that.
I said they all served a purpose, in my opinion. They brought us together for a time, but man being man, it didn't stay that way for long because we always find something to fight about.
People always have to say "Hey, you can't think that. You are different, therefore you are deluded and insane."
What about you, Mark Knowles. What do you believe in?
No - I did not twist words. You said that religion and majik had bought people together and this served a purpose and was right.
I simply pointed out that usually this involved bringing people together to wipe out people who did not share those majikal beliefs.
So - I asked how this was "right."
You could also tell me what purpose it serves.
Have you considered that you are actually deluded and insane? Not because you believe something different - clearly you do not. You just believe there is "something else." Presumably because reality is somehow unsatisfactory?
Yes, of course I understand. They did do that didn't they. Religion has still done a good job of keeping nations together despite fighting among religions.
Man will always fight, it is in our nature.
Nations wiping each other out because they are different, not religion
White people making slaves of the africans,not religion
Wiping out the jews because they were different/alien, not about religion
The world wars:
Millions of casualties, no religion involved
There are countless examples of mass killings because of difference. It isn't religion that causes it. It is difference that causes it. As you can see from my examples above.
Science is a process of understanding and USING the world around us. Based on that definition, we have wiped out millions of our fellow men with these toys we create.
Religion is not to blame for the state of the world today. Greed is to blame. The rich countries thrive and suck the life out of the smaller ones, allowing millions to die of starvation.
Oh, Mark. I really have to explain the purpose. Geeeezzz, man.
The purpose was ....... to .......bring........people........together ..... under.......a ......common ........ cause ........much.......like........race........or.......nationality! Phew
It is human nature to band together and wipe the other band out, whether it be because of religion,color,race,greed,need, magic
Something that brings humanity together is right. Would you rather have had nothing to bring us together? It isn't the religions. It is those few power mongers at the helm that use religion as a tool to control the masses. Religion itself is good and seeks peace for mankind, not war.
The world is filled with leaders who ant to wage war on each other, nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with greed, envy and a dislike for those who are different.
Ah yes, I believe there is "something else" thank you, Mark Knowles.
Thankfully, I love life. It is satisfied with me and I with it. We are like two peas in a pod!
Awesome - coming together to wipe out the unbelievers is "right." Gotcha.
Must be the "something else" that drives us to murder the others that are not the same as us. Nothing to do with religion either. That is all good Yes siree bob - all about the love.
This sounds just as dumb as "I vote Republican" or "I vote Democrat" and neither one actually finds out anything about what's going on, or cares.
So, you believe that the spreading of hatred, bigotry, indoctrination, misogyny, immorality is a good purpose?
And yet, you fully agree that religion, something that bands people together to wipe out other bands is a good purpose?
aha, I see where you have got it a little mixed up there.
Hmmm, so humanity uniting because they believe in something, is wrong? I merely stated that we were brought together as a race.
Nothing to do with "the spreading of hatred, bigotry, indoctrination, misogyny and immorality." Where is all that coming from? Certainly not me, mate. That's for sure.
Isn't it a good thing that human beings who were previously hunting and killing each other at least attempted to come together through whatever means, religion, skin color, geography or whatever in order to create civilisation?
And as I said, which you CLEARLY did not read or understand. Religion ....itself is good. It...is...spoiled...by...those...few...who...try...to...use...religion...as...a...means...of...controlling and keeping subservient, the masses.
Give it up. You are going nowhere. Clutching at straws, turning, twisting this way and that, attempting to ... what? I have no idea.
There is a soul. How about you give me some kind of opinion on that. I mean, a detailed one that is backed up by science, seeing as you are so adamant that the soul doesn't exist.
Geez, you guys really have some shady tactics.
It's from religions, mate.
People are still killing each other over religions. How is that civilized?
Nonsense, religion is made to control the masses.
YOU are the one making the claim that souls exist, hence it is YOU who needs to provide evidence. I said that NO ONE has ever shown souls to exist. The burden of proof lies entirely on YOU. Do you understand?
Oh you are persistent. But still, you make no relevant point.
Opinions is all you have.
Prove not a jot, you can.
How you feel about religions is of no concern to me.
I'm happily existing neither with religion nor against it.
What is the point, either way. You are wasting your keyboard strokes because no matter how many "Do you understand?" 's you throw my way, I will never understand your misguided and hopeless viewpoint.
No matter how many mocking smily faces you put up, you have achieved nothing at the end of the day. Perhaps given yourself a headache. Who knows.
Take it easy, mate.
Let's just end this here. No doubt you will have one last comment.
We shall meet again, on another topic!
Look it's Yoda!
"Hey Yoda are we going in the right direction?"
"off course, we are"
worst joke ever I know.
hahaha, yes, pretty poor excuse for humor there but I applaud you for your effort.
Be careful though. Don't make me resort to using 'the force-ceps'
I can force-see it happening some time soon, so beware!!
Yeah, I know.
Pretty lame, too, but I don't have much time, gotta run.
Other than the fact you claim souls exist but have absolutely nothing but an irrational belief that they do. That's relevant.
Yes, I understand that. You have no concern for anyone who doesn't share your delusions.
Yes, I know you will not understand anything, but it wasn't a waste of keyboard strokes to show that.
Really? So, you can once again make irrational claims, not provide a shred of evidence for them, demand others prove your wrong and then run away again.
Whatever floats your boat, mate.
Whatever you say, old chap!
I'm off to go and be happy and participate in life, for now.
May you continue to fight the good fight.
You still didn't get it? I thought you were smarter than that.
I never mentioned 'unbelievers' once. What is an unbeliever?
You don't argue, fairly.
You merely twist words and attempt to tie people up in knots, hoping that they may fall for your 'basic' tactics. Sorry, buddy. Nice try, but no cigar!
You don't really take any of this seriously though. For you this is all just a bit of fun. You come here with a smile and leave with a smile, I get that.
I'm smiling too.
Whatever makes you feel satisfied.
Go ahead and spew or spout, whichever you prefer.
Er...are you sure you know how to use the quote function properly? It's sometimes difficult to tell which person you are responding to. Do you need help doing it correctly? If so, just say so.
I'd rather think of it as giving them limbo, WD! Either the dance, or the situation.
Actually, this is one time I was being serious. It's hard to tell who he is responding to sometimes without having to read back through the posts.
It might not be him. Sometimes, it picks up the wrong post when you trust the auto. This program isn't fully developed. Why does everyone use it? There is better stuff around.
I've never had a problem with merely hitting reply on the particular post and it has always quoted the poster I intended. But it does seem I've read where other people have had some problems with it. I suppose he'll tell us if this is the case.
Glad you came back. When I saw you walking away yesterday with your backpack strapped on, you looked very determined. But I figured dinnertime would cause you to reconsider.
Whatever . . . it was getting dark and I was hungry.This is my last hooray. I have to tone it down for now on. We are working on some serious causes around here, and we don't need this stuff popping up on searches. The dumbest stuff never seems to go away.
I came to this masquerade flea market as myself, so there is no hiding place. Most of this tripe is totally unprofessional.
I'm over it. Check me out on the art forums. I'll be back for some "Forum Frog" gigging from time to time.
H1! Despite what some may think, I never get truly mad on these forums. At least, not at the common members. There are some I refuse to address, and I ask they do the same for me. This way I avoid getting angry and hope it works for them too.
I am agnostic, not atheistic. I know what I know, but looking to know what I don't know. You know?
Later on Moon Doggy!
Are you saying you don't want people who know you to find out just how immature and childish you act on public forums?
You mean more immaturity and childishness?
What on earth are you talking about?
You poor souls are just warping and twisting this into something that satisfies your need to be right.
You misconstrue everything I have said.
Thanks for the offer.
Each comment doesn't have a 'reply' box so I have been going back up to the original reply button on the original comment of the series but it sends me to the wrong comments sometimes.
Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks for any help you can give.
Are you using the threaded or chronological setting located at the top right of the page?
aha, I was using the threaded, so I have now changed it to Chronological.
Thanks you very much for your help.
That was a real pain. Trying to answer those posts and getting sent somewhere completely different.
These guys knew what was going on with that! They were simply sitting back and laughing at you while you were struggling along with the quotes! Obviously a cruel and vicious group if there ever was one! Always listen to the snake, he'll point you in the right direction!
Seriously though, it happens to posters occasionally who've never noticed the two settings before. It's easy to miss. Glad it's working for you now. Carry on!
Thank you Randy.
I shall trust in the snake,in future!
Yeah, they do seem to be pretty vicious which is why I'm leaving this thread. ha ha
Take care, mate.
Essentially, what you're saying is that you want to believe in a soul because you believe imagining in a soul is the same thing as having hope, desire and dreams and that if we don't believe in souls, we go nowhere and stagnate.
Funny how reality, science and the wonders of the universe have already shown that to be entirely false.
No, you got it all wrong partner.
I said what I said.
Not what you said
Not your words, instead
Instead, my words you read
You twist for fun
But i'm afraid I'm done
I said my part
from my heart
continue if you wish
with hunger and relish
But do it alone
Coz I have gone home!
There is a soul, by the way.
You talk like you are taking off your armor and the fight hasn't even started. Refute this!
Forget about it. WD says the point is mute, so there it is.
I think it 'was' forgotten many posts ago.
It has since become something far from a discussion of whether there is a soul or not.
I agree with you though.
It is over.
Finally . . . wisdom. If I say it, you can believe it.
@elijah please stop quoting from 2k year old books...authors of those books wrote to best of their ability but unfortunately lacked exposure , tool and enough developed science to know complexities of our universe...even we know less , so we cant blame people who existed 2k yrs back...
coming to your question....as josak said ....spirit is assumption and since u assumed there is spirit , now u got to prove that there is one...
Circular Logic. Your asking everyone else to prove that it does exist in order to prove that they don't have it. It's stupid. You prove that it does exist, equally, and for everyone, and then people can prove whether or not they have it.
The challenge is not on anyone to DISprove a soul or a spirit. You are the one claiming that they exist so YOU have to prove that they do.
You cant disprove flying monkeys in another galaxy that doesnt mean they exist.
What you are doing is one of the most common fallacious theist arguments that ever existed. You dont honestly believe it do you?
The bible means nothing to me, just another book (and I love books), although I won't say that it is false or truthful in its teaching that there is a God and man has spirit because at this moment it is unprovable.
What I will say, in my humble opinion though is this: Even though I don't believe in the doctrine that the bible preaches, I do believe that there is a soul or at least some leftover residue of ourselves that continues on into either another existence or is re-integrated into the system in some way just as physical matter is.
Perhaps it is better that we don't know. The uncertainty may make life much more interesting. If we were to ever find out that there is or isn't a soul and it became public knowledge, there would be some massive ramifications.
As a species we are not ready for that kind of knowledge, still far too ignorant.
The mystery is what makes it so intriguing though, the possibilities for what happens after death are endless when it is still so mysterious and unknown.
Knowledge is good. It goes beyond what we can sense in many areas. Microwave technology is one example. Personally, I think you are on the right track. I have certain beliefs that I hope to share someday. Meanwhile, I am happy to hear yours. They make sense and you express them well. We have to live with the mystery. There is not enough knowledge to span the gap.
I think it is safe to say that you are a man seeking peace and prosperity for us all.
I'd love to hear some of your beliefs as I think they'd probably be interesting, given your good nature.
Do you one day plan to put them into a hub or a few hubs?
I do have plans to do so. not just yet though. In time.
You know those people online that have become immensely popular just by writing very cynically about the goverment etc? There are a few. I'd like to see more people who write positively and optimistically about the human race and the possible futures we might attain, and I'd also like to see them become immensely popular. I know it won't happen, at least not now.
If I could somehow write stuff like that, I would.
Everything ever done was always done by those with great imagination and faith and they were always opposed by cynics and those with no imagination. They didn't listen, they drowned out the clamoring voices and mocking tones and shocked the world with future changing discoveries.
They are so few, yet they are the ones changing the world. The cynics are so many, and when do we see them ever changing the world for the better?
Oops, I went off on another path there, sorry!
Thanks again WD Curry! Take care, mate.
I have Hubs. There are a few dedicated to spiritual subjects. As with most writers, my beliefs seep into the text on the other ones. Not everyone thinks I am good natured, but it is all good. We all need the same thing. It is not so hard to do right, and it feels so good at the end of the day. Why argue? There is enough strife. Everyone knows right from wrong.
We will be seeing you around, and I am sure your ambitions don't end here.
proving it would be impossible, literally. i would rather have it proven by someone because people live their lives based on nothing but faith in something they can't prove and it's absurd to say the least. when we die, we die and that is just how it is.
This post stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the way the burden of proof works.
Doubt requires no proof, it merely requires someone to be unconvinced.
The amount of rubbish you post about god and being mental Elijah7, I think I'm going to flag you for being too promotional.
Assumptions abound, lack of evidence for something negates any real reason for believing in it except by faith. By faith you can believe anything true or false. The idea if salvation and damnation is an empty promise and empty threat without evidence to back it up. A book claiming to be the word of god with testimony by people of questionable education and mental stability and even existence themselves is not evidence for anything except that people believed in things like that. There are over 20 religious beliefs in the world today all saying that you will go to their particular brand of hell. What if we are both wrong, by your own standard we will both burn in someone's hell. How do you find out what is true? Evidence exists for all that is real.
I don't know how you found out, but as for me I Googled it...
There is no evidence that anything spiritual exists and is anything but the imagination of human beings. There is also no evidence that the Bible was written, imagined and concieved by anyone other than human people.
In order to believe that a spiritual realm exists you'd either have to be ignorant of reality or dismiss reality and believe for the sake of believing and not because something is true or false.
How do you find out if something is true? Evidence that can be tested and proven to be true.
† Psalm 69 : 21 †
"They gave me also gall for my meat;
and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink."
† Psalm 22 : 16 †
"For dogs have compassed me:
the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me:
they pierced my hands and my feet."
† Psalm 34 : 20 †
"He keepeth all his bones:
not one of them is broken."
ABOVE PROPHECIES WRITTEN AROUND 1000 BC
† Isaiah 7 : 14 †
"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign;
Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son,
and shall call his name Immanuel."
† Isaiah 53 : 5 †
"But he was wounded for our transgressions,
he was bruised for our iniquities:
the chastisement of our peace was upon him;
and with his stripes we are healed."
† Isaiah 53 : 7 †
"He was oppressed, and he was afflicted,
yet he opened not his mouth:
he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb,
so he openeth not his mouth."
READ HERE ALSO :
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se … ersion=KJV
ABOVE PROPHECIES WRITTEN AROUND 712 BC
† Zechariah 12 : 10 †
"And I will pour upon the house of David,
and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem,
the spirit of grace and of supplications:
and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced,
and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,
and shall be in bitterness for him,
as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn."
ABOVE PROPHECY WRITTEN AROUND 520 BC
There are literally, thousands of Biblical Prophecies Written multiple hundreds of years before The Historical Events Transpired in Recorded Reality, even right up to NOW AD 2012.
These Tsunamis of Fulfilled Written Prophecies
are ALL Contained in ONE MOST HOLY BOOK !!!
This Supernatural History Book ALSO States THIS :-
† James 2 : 26 †
"For as the body without the spirit is dead,
so faith without works is dead also."
You have nothing, nada, zilch, zero, nil! Why would anyone in their right mind wish to be like you? If you are going to heaven, this speaks volumes as to the genius of your god. I've often wondered why such a deity always chooses the most ignorant of humans to spread his message. Apparently he doesn't want intelligent followers. What else could the reason be? Your excuse?
You hit the nail on the head, but it's not that God didn't want us to have knowledge, the writers of the bible didn't want us to think. Ignorance must have worked for societies a few thousand years ago, but a uneducated nation would not do well today. The story of Adam and Eve illustrates this perfectly. The apple represents knowledge and once you take a bit out of knowledge you can't go back because you see how silly all these spirits are. The writers of the bible didn't want critical thinkers because most like they would ask why this or why that.
Reminds me of the hub I just read about the finding of the Arc. It is said that it was 512 feet I believe. That's half the size of a cruise ship, one might ask how they would get every animal alive on a boat that small. When that story was written they didn't know of the America's or Australia.
Silly silly nonsense.
Still, this only shows that some people can accept silly ideas. What you are doing is recruiting allies to reinforce your opinion. You have presented nothing that indicates that Man is not a spiritual being, only that some believe in books that you don't accept.
No one has been accused of a crime, here. The case does not require proof "beyond a shadow of doubt". The judges weigh the preponderance of the evidence. I have provided enough evidence to keep any poor soul, who is that bored and lonely, busy for a whole day. It is evidence of spirit, and soul. It towers above your total lack of evidence.
You have offered nothing but opposition, loathing, and ridicule.
I see no need to continue. It is all here for the reader (judges) to ponder. I know I have presented more than enough truth to bolster my argument.
Man is a spirit who has a body.
I rest my case.
And, that is supposed to your argument, full of evidence?
Lets have a look at your soul shall we?
Is it music?
Humans aren't the only animal that possess the ability to keep can recognize rhythm. So your soul can't be music.
Is it consciousness?
It has been proven that consciousness resides in a particular part of the brain. It's purpose is to bring legitimacy to the sub-conscious. A kind of play by play if you will. The more conscious one is the more they are aware of there Sub-conscious. Consciousness usually resides in our left hemisphere, we know this because of the word done with split brained patience. Consciousness can be turned on and off by medicine. Time stopes durning surgery, consciousness has been taken away. Consciousness is therefore a product of the brain. When the brain dies so does consciousness. So the soul can't be connected to consciousness.
Is the soul something else?
Well then it doesn't matter does it. If it can be proven that the soul is not consciousness then we will have no consciousness after death even if there is a soul.
It is not my burden to prove we don't have souls, it's yours to prove we do, but I can prove consciousness is a product of the brain and thereby prove we can't take consciousness with us after we die. I don't like it either, but there it is.
The soul is the conscious part. The brain is merely a tool, which the soul utilizes much the same way you or I would utilize a car.
We are souls in SPACE SUITS!
Again, no evidence, no nothing. Just more nonsense.
What's even more ridiculous is that he is allowed to freely run amok on the forums acting like a troll.
Where is your evidence. I left a pile of it around here. You can provide nothing to support your position. Argue that the sun isn't shining in Florida today. I am pointing at it.
more uselessness. Just shows how ineffective you are. Can't even defend your beliefs. Yet I'm the one who's supposedly upset? What a laugh.
That's not what neuroscience says about the brain at all, quite the opposite, in fact. This can easily be accounted for with those who have brain injuries or have some other form of handicap that influences that part of the brain functions.
You sound like you have first hand experience.
More childish insults. Funny how the moderators here allow you to continue trolling these forums. They must think you're funny too.
Even a blind bat can eat up a Forum Frog!
Maybe they like my hubs? How about yours?
Certainly then, your hubs and your posts would be diametrically opposed as far as intelligence is concerned...
... oh wait, that isn't true either.
http://wdcurry111.hubpages.com/video/Sh … -evolution
Thanks for the plug. Sorry, I can't return the favor.
Get your lazy duff off the log and write some hubs!
You're not earning your keep as a propagandist. You are no good at it.
It's very much the same thing as when many people watch and support FoxNews despite the fact they produce nothing but garbage. The mindset that it is far more credible and valid to produce garbage then nothing at all shows more about garbage hubs and those who support them.
So, in other words . . . you do not write hubs, because yours (by your own admission) would be garbage and is better to write none at all.
Yes, I understand that when immature, childish believers write garbage, they automatically assume everyone will do the same thing. What's even more outlandish is the fact the very same believers write about things they have no understanding whatsoever, hence all they accomplish is the propagation of lies in the defense of their own irrational beliefs.
The support and accolades they receive is hypocrisy at it's finest.
Consciousness is a product of the brain. That is a proven fact. Consciousness can be turned on and off. People in Coma's are not conscious. The doctor turns of Consciousness to preform surgery. We know consciousness resides in the left hemisphere of most people.
We don't take consciousness with us when we die just as we don't take our brain with us.
From what we have learned from phycology. Consciousness can be turned on or off and resides in the left hemisphere of the brain. Because consciousness is a product of the brain and we can't take the brain with us when we die we also can't take consciousness with us. Judging from you posts this might be over your head.
In your high school psychology course, you learned about the dynamics of post death consciousness?
I thought it was above you and I was correct. Do you have problems with attention? You post a lot of unrelated silly comments and pictures. I'm just saying you can't take what little consciousness you have with you.
For a long time not only did the powers that be not want us to have any knowledge as per the Bible but they decided we would get the wrong idea or misinterpret the Bible itself if we knew how to read it... The dark ages was that time period, the religious leaders of that time not only did not allow us to read or learn to read but we were not allowed to read the Bible.
Knowledge is power, the more you know the less control someone else can exert over you. It's why all these religious people here try and put doubt in your mind over what is real, if god is real they can tell you what to think and how to feel and true human empathy dies.
There hasn't been a god yet which dared to show himself to the masses. All of the gods seemed to follow the basic god guidelines whether they were good gods or bad gods.
1-They are all invisible and require blind faith and or delusion for them to exist.
2-Their followers can only communicate with them in their own minds.
3-They have strange powers and can read the minds of human beings and affect their lives.
4-They have a say in what happens to us after we die but claim our actions contribute to the outcome.
5-They all have special messengers to pass along their wishes to us mere mortals.
6-They often choose the most knowledge challenged of humans to pass along their extremely important messages.
And the rule book goes on and on. What a coincidence the one true god would follow the same guidelines as the many gods which were merely false idols. The old "don't believe in that guy even though his problems are the same as mine" alibi. How can it be called "free will" when the evidence against a god is so overwhelming?
So God made a perfect being who turned out to be flawed, was apparently tempted by God, as who else could penetrate God's perfect creation, and now is blamed with tempting more of God's creations.
But get this! Both God, Satan, and of course we human beings, all know the outcome. Why, it says so right in the handbook, doesn't it? It's already planned out and has been forever. I don't know what else to say other than I suppose I am one of those you guys think is on Satan's side. Not because I am a bad person, no that seems to be only secondary to worshiping something I simply can't believe exists.
But because I don't believe the same way others do. What an exasperating exercise in futility. But I suppose gods have to have something to do with their time....oh, that's right....they have no sense of time. My bad.
I wonder how come the USA has the crappiest school system in all the first world nations and why they are self-sabotaging the future economy for the next generation. There is no new manufacturing and the gov't stimulus for infrastructure has one city's bridge sections built in China!
A good book to read:
The dictator's handbook : why bad behavior is almost always good politics by Bruce Bueno de Mesquita
I was disturbed to find out there are actual school teachers here who embrace the most ridiculous beliefs while denying scientific fact. That should help us understand your question.
scientific fact often leads to creationism.
God said let there be light - the light from a big bang
God created man on the 6th day - hello cambrian explosion
Gods flood during noahs time - hello gilgamesh
Secular testimony abounds
and the bible is excellent for understanding and learning about God
I am not disturbed at all that teachers and others find God i am, indeed, pleased.
you do realize that noah's flood is a scientific impossibility right?
you do realise that jesus walking on water and healing withered hands and curing disease is also scientifically impossible, although science can explain how it MIGHT happen, God makes it happen.
floods are easy to God
The reason the Bible is not constituted as actual evidence, is because it doesn't use facts, or have any facts in it. Facts are time tested, over and over and over again, that will ALWAYS end in the same EXACT result. With 33,000 + denominations of Christianity, all based on the bible, there is not even fact amongst those who choose to believe in it.
There probably is a lot of Bible evidence that you've put forward on this forum. Probably on many topics. However, you've entered into the realm of Atheism and Agnosticism to do it. All your evidence has been over turned. This isn't even the first time you and I have been through this very topic, but you probably don't remember that because you don't want to.
Through experience = you have to first believe
His spirit = Witchcraft (invoking spirits)
the bible is Gods doing for us = Circular logic (because the bible says so)
I have on many occasions, as has science proven the impossibility of the bible. However, people like you choose to hang on to some absurd belief that science is only right when you want it to be and that a super being does whatever he wants and controls everything, for which there is no evidence what so ever.
No, I don't dismiss it. I dismiss the fact that they are not without it, no matter how much they try to lay claim otherwise. I don't think it's a level either. I think they are extremely prideful, egotistical, and arrogant. Such things are displayed just by the way they act. Such as going into Atheism and Agnosticism forums and trying to argue their bible is fact.
I already posed the question. Since you obviously didn't bother reading farther back to see where things started before jumping in head first (arrogance in it's prime btw), I'm not going to repost it. If you want to read further back, then I'm sure you'll run across it and probably even come up with the same excuses he did, which don't apply to it in anyway shape or form.
Back to good old circular logic of "god dun it." Not that we haven't heard this excuse before. Another explanation for something pops up and it "well god dun it" instead of actually trying to looking at it.
I do realise all these are easy for a non-existent person.
Pure nonsense, but I understand why believers who have no concept of scientific fact would say such things.
How utterly childish.
how utterly childish to say i have no concept of science.
How else do you waste your time?
Unless you use a source other than the BIBLE, you have absolutely NO credibility. NONE!
Your bible cannot be the source to support your senseless claims. Can you present current scientific data that has been peer reviewed? If not, your entire approach is based on abject ignorance.
Yeah nice preaching dude. Already read the nonsene in the bible. It is actually the reason I am NOT a christian.
THE REAL TRUTH IS :- The Holy Scriptures CONVICT you ALL of your SIN. This is WHY you hate and blaspheme and deny ALL the time.
The PROBLEM is Not The Scriptures, Christians or The Church;
THE PROBLEM IS WITHIN EACH ONE OF YOU.
Your own PERSONAL Sins - THIS IS THE ROOT OF BITTERNESS YOU FEEL WHEN THE GOSPEL IS PREACHED TO YOU.
Try Repenting, to be FORGIVEN, and THEN Discover the Greatest Love and THE Most Immeasurable PEACE you have EVER experienced.
† Ezekiel 18 : 30 †
"Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel,
every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD.
Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions;
so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
How do you suggest I "try" to believe in something that I deem unbelievable?
And why are you still quoting the bible to me?
Are you retarded? I'm not a christian because the bible is full of false lies and it has been historically proven that the writers of the bible stole many stories in the bible from pagan religions such as the religion of the Egyptians. And to continuously quote the bible knowing no one cares and are smart enough to understand it's bullshit is simply idiotic. Clearly your the one who can't read because if you could you wouldn't be a Christian.
how odd is that, the 'nonsense' you see in the bible is nothing like the truth i see.
The book is the same
then what is the difference
obviously the reader
Soooooooo if the way you read and perceive the bible brings you to the conclusion of 'nonsense' I would say this is your flaw as the bible is extraordinarily exact and informative from creation onward. As a jewish historical document it has the same credibility as other historical documents, if therefore you read some other historical document and come to the same conclusion of nonsense perhaps you need to upgrade your abilities.
Reading quotes out of 2000 year old book doesn't make those quotes true. Repeating them over and over again won't make anyone believe that those words are anything but the uneducated beliefs of people living 2000 years ago. And screaming about how some guy was tortured to death for your "sins" makes us wonder if you enjoy talking about some guy being tortured to death. You even have sick little pictures showing some guy tortured to death all bloody. Do you enjoy looking at those pictures? Having all these things doesn't make the statements about God or sin or salvation true, it makes you look like a sick sadist who enjoys talking about death and torture.
you are using the bible as proof, surely you jest. people like you scare the crap out of me and i don't scare easily. you are basically using a book to prove something that has never been proven and in fact is so close to being impossible it's down right silly to believe it.
How can you talk like that with a baby in your hands?
Besides the fact that your picture is stepping way over the line, what does a baby have to do with it? Are you becoming another one is here not to discuss or talk, but to instigate trouble and try to piss people off since your complete lack of knowledge is starting to show?
Is that an effective insult where you are from? Around here it is just mealy mouth dribble.
What does a baby have to do with it? Learn to follow the threads.
No, if I wanted to insult you, I definitely would. I'm trying to understand where it is that this is coming from.
I have been following the thread, in fact, it's the only thread I've been following. So what if his picture has him holding a baby? Where did the baby become part of the conversation? It wasn't part of what you quoted, you just jumped straight into trying to insult him, much like another christian party liner around here does.
When you die, you do lose weight but losing a soul? no. We actually release measurable energy from our bodies upon death. A soul though is just a myth.
We're still exacerbating this dude. Oh great "Elijah," I'll leave you to your madness.
I will take up this challenge as soon as OP proves there is no invisible pink unicorn.
TRY READING FOR A CHANGE..
The above Prophecies, and MULTITUDES of others,
PROVE The Whole point you are SIMPLY MISSING.
The Hebrew Prophets WROTE about the Future.
These various "futures" ARE THE MOST FAMOUS
HISTORICAL EVENTS ACROSS ALL OF TIME, eras
AFTER they were written : SOME OVER 2000 YEARS LATER.
Some OVER 4000 years later.
Seeing The Future IS Supernatural - NOT "religious".
The FACTS of This Revelation PROVE that everything
ELSE In The Greatest Book EVER Written, is ALSO TRUE.
Why ? BECAUSE God is A Spirit and Created The Universe,
and PUT YOUR spirits in your bodies for a Season.
This Point is Now proven.
Not MY fault you CAN'T READ !!!
† Hebrews 12 : 9 †
"Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh
which corrected us, and we gave them reverence:
shall we not much rather be in subjection unto
the Father of spirits, and live?
PS : i MYSELF am BACK FROM THE DEAD, Glory To God ONLY - hence i KNOW what i AM Talking about - Take some Good Advice from an Expert - BELIEVE THE TRUTH - Amen
You quoted a post, dude! Where's your proof the pink unicorn doesn't exist? Show us you can do it! Ask jr. if you have to, but prove it or shut the heck up! No need plagaising the old novel if you cannot back up your words.
nobody has to prove anything to you to keep on speaking. Christians do not get together to cross reference proof. Christians are so far beyond proof that you are eating the dust from the tire treads years ago.
enjoy your snack
Gotta love that Christian Pride and Ego. Things they say they are "above" but that always seem to kick in when they feel threatened or insulted.
I used to think that having such a high ego was un-biblical, but the Prophet Elijah (The one in the OT, not this crazy dude on here) mocked one of the "false" prophets after God has caused fire to come down and I don't remember him being chastised. I don't remember where that is.
Who knows? He's slightly bonkers, I'd wager.
I don't make it a habit of rendering conversation useless with people, but he's a special case. Not because he's stupid. And I don't really mean that he's "bonkers." Just set in stone.
And I can approx. 95% guarantee that what you say to him doesn't actually matter. It's like trying to convince a rabbit that believe it's a bird that it's not actually a bird without knowing how communicate with a rabbit in the least. You could show it other rabbits, and how they act, put a mirror in front of it, but it'll still try to flap it's little arms.
No Chasuk - THE STONE COLD DEAD and then back again VIDEOS' Testimony Below :
They have been posted in this discussion for some time.
Parts One & Two - Part Two Follows on from Part One here :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
[Right click and then open in new window)
Met this man in London in February (i live in Hong Kong - 22 years) - can ASSURE you he's the REAL DEAL - so am i for that matter....
(and ATW says i'm bonkers - THAT'S RICH, reading her last post - OUT LOUD LAUGHTER)
ANYHOW - ALSO read this Historical Record VERY CLOSELY, Written around 1056 BC...
Take some time with the videos and the record below - NO RUSH...
The Subject is TOO Important to rush..
† 1 Samuel 28 : 3 -20 †
3 Now Samuel was dead, and all Israel had lamented him, and buried him in Ramah, even in his own city. And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land.
4 And the Philistines gathered themselves together, and came and pitched in Shunem: and Saul gathered all Israel together, and they pitched in Gilboa.
5 And when Saul saw the host of the Philistines, he was afraid, and his heart greatly trembled.
6 And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
These are the videos that I meant when I said, "NDE videos."
Sorry, I've seen such things before, and I wasn't impressed then, either.
You're still an idiot... Speak with your own mouth, you're only serving to make yourself look stupid. If you can't make anything new with your trumpet, stop trying to play with the band.
we need to notice these:
1)And Saul had put away those that had familiar spirits, and the wizards
This was at the command of God. Why would God command that these types of people be put away? Because they are liars and deceivers and the truth of God is not in them.
2)And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
The urim were stones on the high priests tunic which would glow when God was with them during battle (the battle is mentioned in verse 4) All that had to be done was to look at them and see them glow or not glow. There were no incantations or special ceremony to consult the urim.
Notice that God answered him NOT by the ways that God normally answered his people, dreams, urim and prophets. These are Gods ways during this OT dispensation for the holy ghost is not yet given to all people.
We know that saul was a notable fellow in that he was taller than other israelites. (1 sam 9:2) Saul was brought to the woman with an entourage of guards (displaying kingly affiliation). This adds to her knowing who he is - no big secret and of course knowing of the upcoming battle she was able to deceive saul easily.
to keep this short the woman is doing a cold or hot reading much like is used today by these same practioners. Yes the wording does make it seem real but to tell the story accurately it may just come across that way, still you need to have other scriptures back up that people can come back from the dead by other than God and there is no such scripture, as all people 'sleep' until the day of judgments.
soul used here is nephesh which means life. Not the way we think of soul today at all, but as hebraic older documents we need to look at these verses through their understanding and definition - not ours.
pride and ego
lets examine that shall we.
we know that pride cometh before a fall
But how much pride is needed before that fall?
You see pride has to cross a line, there has to be an amount of it that somehow brings the wrong result. So to keep the post short.
If my pride has crossed that particular line then i will fall.
But did God say that we could not be proud at all? No he did not. To do a thing and be proud of ones accomplishment can be acceptable to God and since you are not God you do not know what that line is - therefore jesus said: "do not judge people", but you are not judging you are just criticizing from a point of ignorance.
Did God say we could have no ego? Can you fairly and precisely assess what amount or what type or how big my ego is?
No you cannot.
You are just criticizing again.
Criticizing you? Well, yes I am. Why? Because you make claims that you can't back up without saying "god dun it." The only evidence you ever try to present comes from the Bible, which to this day has not been established as fact in any sense of the word.
Do I know the lines drawn for pride and ego? No, I honestly don't think there are any. I do know that pride and ego are the only things that allow for arrogant foolishness without facts to back it up however.
i wish people would get off this habit of saying we cannot use the bible to back up what God wants. Its just stupid. The bible as a source of information is as valid as any other book you want to go to for research. Geography a geography book, architecture an architecture book. A book about God the book that God is in.
There is so much evidence i have put forth in this forum about so many topics i can only say to you is, read more.
Fact to you is not the bible, but to me and all other christians we deny your counsel, through experience and by His spirit - the bible is Gods doing for us. To discuss this in any negative way is just ridiculous.
If you want to disprove Gods truthfulness then disprove the bible - and you cannot, therefore you have a fact - the bible has withstood the test of time and will continue to do so.
You dismiss that there is a level of pride and ego that a christian can have? That is foolishness. What you decide as arrogance is also up for scrutiny.
Yes, "beyond the proof" seems to be just about right for you, BO. First you have to be able to recognize it. How's that failed attempt coming along?
How do you know the Bible is true? Isn't it possible Satan wrote it to deceive us?
There is no satan
and since we know that godly people wrote the bible we have no troublesome worries about a non existant persian/catholic entity.
Instead, you have a nonexistent, Hebrew/Greek entity. Wooo! Does this mean you win, BO?
silly post randy
in the end God wins. I may partake in the skirmish but He is the overall victor.
Oh satan EXISTS - definitely yoyochan
Biblical - Historical and atheist forum FACT.
Where do you think ALL this MINDLESS ARGUMENT comes from ?
† Ephesians 2 : 1 - 3 †
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."
This Song sums it up :-
http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/C7-Musi … dFound.mp3
RIGHT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK AND OPEN IN NEW TAB OR WINDOW TO AVOID NAVIGATING AWAY FROM THIS WEB PAGE - Enjoy...
to be a prince of the power of the air is to be non-existant. Prince of nothing is still nothing and notice all the attached relevancies: lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of our flesh and mind, children of wrath, are all ourselves, the sinful soul - which is backed up by myriad other verses.
Spirit here means attitude. Not a floating malevolent being.
This coming from the guy who still can't answer my question without saying god dun it.
Elijah7, why is it that you always write so ridiculously? Bolding and uppercasing (not to mention the colors) are just extremely annoying. It's as though you think stressing your words validates them. It's unprofessional and dare I say, rude. You're getting the opposite effect.
Furthermore, you just keep quoting random verses without clear direction as to why. You keep going on about "fulfilled prophecies" and don't actually prove anything because you're using "the solution" as proof. It's completely circular. It's not okay to say "This book is valid because the book says so."
By the way, those prophecies, besides being questionable as to their dating and ORIGINS, (isn't that just obnoxious?) are somewhat vague. Not impressed.
Can I really know my body absent the perspective of the spirit?
Yep resorting to silly taunts sure makes it clear that one has absolutely nothing to support the psychotic claims they assert.
Seems like I've heard
this rhetoric before.
Maybe, but still you have only produced silly taunts throughout this entire thread, making you appear to be obnoxious and absurd.
I believe this is a strong argument that man has a soul or spirit and I believe that.
There are things we cannot see in this world. How would you explain millions of cases of ghost stories?etc?
Hey, I wouldn't come in here with something like that.
You may well be attacked by rabid refutists! (oh, a new word)
It really can't be proven, christianajohan
It is ignorant for a Forum Frog to swim in this pond.
There are big fish around.
I've moved over here now, Troubled man.
Getting too crowded over there!
There is a soul.
Go on try to twist that and warp it into something that serves you.
I bet you probably could too!
Where? Why has no one ever shown there to be a soul but you say there is? How does that work?
So many things have been said to exist in your scientific world that cannot be seen, how do you explain them?
If there are so many things, as you assert, then you should be able to provide a bevy of examples. Please do so we can discuss each one.
Good luck getting BO to post anything based on fact.
the list goes on and on but i spent 3 minutes thinking about something you have spent no time thinking about. Your welcome.
Here we have one of the most dishonest believers on the forums with a list of things he obviously doesn't understand but believes all lead to creationism. Hilarious.
<--- coveted double laughie award.
I wasnt asked to name things that lead to creationism. I was asked to name things that exist but cant be seen.
You said you would discuss each one and you haven't.
You broke your word and that speaks volumes for dishonesty.
<--- coveted double laughie award for your ignorant dishonesty
what a shame
One of the most successful and accurate theories science has discovered. We have several accelerator throughout the world testing every day.
The wind is the atmosphere in motion made up of molecules and atoms that can be seen under powerful microscopes
The effects of dark matter and gravity can be seen
Emotions and the activities of the brain are seen on an MRI
Look at your watch or a clock. All motion in the universe is governed by time.
Keep the list coming if you want.
I've read this whole deal and I can't believe the only thing I'm taking away from it all is a big splitting headache.
Although not inclined toward the pro or con babbling literary Memorex™ interpreters, do have practical evidence of spirit existing, based on experience. Mr. Kant would be elated, I assure you.
Apart from my experiences, the Essence -which is defined as spirit- has been a fascination among humanity since its beginning. From all recorded human history, the mention of spirit has existed (minimum 7000 years). The general consensus is the same. It is the Life in us or Breath (without any reference to either side of Ism: meaning no sensation or equation required. So please stave your scientific and theistic ideologies for your respective showcases: churches, cemeteries, labs, museums).
I do find it quite ridiculous that a person would challenge another to prove spirit does exist and equally ridiculous to challenge spirit does not exist.
The purpose of such a challenge (either viewpoint) can only be ego driven [ha-satan], in my opine.
Unfortunately, this OP has set themselves up for much ridicule & mockery; not because of the curious question or the challenge itself, but the underlying objective.
can't prove a negative - it's a set up question, besides, you want a platform to promote your dogma and not have a discussion. But - here it is -
Is consciousness proof of the soul? - (talking brain-dead definition)
If this is true then need to ask; what is consciousness? Saying the soul is the 'ghost in the machine' is not an explanation.
TRULY - The real Answer to this ENTIRE DISCUSSION, is available for anyone with just a "liitle patience" and the know-how to right click THIS LINK BELOW, AND OPEN IN A NEW TAB OR WINDOW :
This testimony is GOSPEL TRUE. The INTERVIEW describes this FORMER ATHEIST man's ABSOLUTE CONFIRMED DEATH; his transition OUT OF HIS BODY; A Supernatural Experience THROUGH The Lord's Prayer; AN ENCOUNTER with the denizens of darkness; A Meeting With The Lord; His Call To Mission (OUT OF HIS BODY); his subsequent return BACK TO HIS COLD, DEAD CORPSE IN THE MORGUE and the SHOCK experienced by the folk POKING HIS DEAD BODY WITH A SCALPEL, followed by his Healing Miracle.
This youtube Video is IN TWO PARTS. Please watch them BOTH.
i PERSONALLY met this man in London in February 2012 (this year).
HONESTLY GUYS, this Is The Final Word and EVIDENCE you ARE ALL LOOKING FOR.
You CAN believe your EYES and EARS - AMEN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
† 1 Corinthians 15 : 14 - 17 †
"And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins."
END OF STORY !!!!!!!
If you would drop the Elijah crap and the kid's coloring book presentation, you do realize that people would take you more seriously, right?
And are we to take you more seriously, Chasuk, for using four-letter words and condescending tones?
Right. Mr. Condescension calls me out for being condescending.
In answer in your question:
However, since the word "c#@p" apparently offends you, I'll rephrase my question:
"If you would drop the Elijah facade and the kid's coloring book presentation, you do realize that people would take you more seriously, right?"
Wait... I can also eliminate the condescension:
"If you would drop the Elijah facade and the cartoonish presentation, you do realize that people would take you more seriously, right?"
Chasuk: If you want to get under the skin of a scientologist, call him Mr. Ego.
I'm a bit dumbfounded. A Scientologist? Really?
I am certain he has studied scientology as his proclamations about the evil of ego are straight out of their playbook.
Which is ironic considering the size of ego he is wearing.
XXXXL if I am not mistaken.
I could be mistaken but when you add up the incessant warnings against ego with the claims of screenwriting and science fiction writing along with a Hollywood background, it makes for a fairly decent circumstantial case for a scientology influence.
Actually, he confirms as much in a comment on the forum "Scientists find areas of the brain responsible for spirituality."
I am not sure if one can be "influenced" by scientology without being a member at some point in time - or a current member.
He can't drop the Elijah thing... He really thinks he's THE Elijah. Automatically not going to be taken seriously.
It's the name on my Birth Certificate - go figure...
In fact take a LONG LOOK at ALL my posts these past ten days or so...
AND GO FIGURE AGAIN !!!
In fact, from what i've read of YOUR posts you don't take ANYONE with The Gospel Message seriously....
Did you watch the videos ???
If not - you got NOTHING to add to this discussion.
† John 3 : 7 †
"Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."
http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/C7-Musi … Elijah.mp3
RIGHT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK AND OPEN IN NEW TAB OR WINDOW TO AVOID NAVIGATING AWAY FROM THIS WEB PAGE - Crank UP The Volume...
Re : "If you would drop the Elijah crap and the kid's coloring book presentation, you do realize that people would take you more seriously, right?"
It's NOT me chusak, that people need to take seriously, it's THE TRUTH AND GOD they need...
† Corinthians 1 : 27 †
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;"
http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/C7-Musi … Christ.mp3
RIGHT CLICK THE ABOVE LINK AND OPEN IN NEW TAB OR WINDOW TO AVOID NAVIGATING AWAY FROM THIS WEB PAGE - Crank up the volume. NOTE THE WORDS...
Of course you can prove a negative - the problem is that the one you are trying to convince may not accept your evidence, which gets back to the source of the silly "prove it to me" and "you can't prove it 100%" argument methods used on these forums, and the very nature of proof and evidence themselves. Most people have no clue that proof and evidence are simply opinions as to value.
While it is accurate to say that a negative cannot be proven by deduction, a negative can be proven by induction. I can claim there is no elephant in my garage (a negative claim) and then "prove" it by cleaning my garage, removing the car, and then opening the door for the world to see that it is empty.
To most reasonable and rational people, I have just "proven" a negative, that there is no elephant in my garage.
Unfortunately, not everyone is convinced. Billy Bob Thornton Theist peers real hard into the garage and suddenly falls to his knees and holds his arms to the heavens and declares that he can feel the presence of an immaterial, invisible, spirit elephant - and its essence feels pink and it projects an image to his mind of a omnipotent pink being wearing an orange tutu.
Billy Bob Thornton Theist, it seems, is not a reasonable and rational man.
Hey, Maybe this guy was personally inspired by this man he met. But like they say, "If you meet Buddha on the road - kill him!"
Whatever your conception is of the Buddha, it’s wrong! Now kill that image and keep practicing.
And I have a 23 second video pointing this out:
http://www.myspace.com/video/ptosis/eve … g/13082724
I am posting a comment without reading anyone's comment. Some may agree and many may disagree. I just believe that we are physical body embedded with spirit of our own. The day when we take our last breath and die (physically), our spirit leaves our body. May be I'm totally wrong. But, there is only hypothetical answers to these type of questions, and different religion may explain differently about it.
dee. Science backs that up, no matter what anyone says to detract from this. Science backs this up.
You are an odd one mischevious...curiously awake, yet, strangly asleep. I'm watching you!
Do you you mean that science corroborate it, or that nothing in science provides contrary evidence?
Exactly where do I locate this objective data that verifies a human spirit? What does a spirit look like? Are you really certain of your claim or is it something you heard or read that you happen to believe?
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it."
Since there is only one spirit and that spirit is of God then there is no spirit in people unless God give it.
brothery, when the books that form the bible were written, George Lucas wasn't around to describe the concept of THE FORCE. It would have been so much easier if they had gone that route!
Scripture is scripture
doubt it if you will but all the answers are in there and the rest comes from God who gives his spirit to whom He chooses.
Otherwise ye are all spiritually dead and all is vanity.
AMEN & AMEN
http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/C7-Musi … EHOVAH.mp3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
TESTIMONIAL PROOF VIDEOS (PART ONE & PART TWO ABOVE) OF ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW - CLOSING THIS THREAD ONCE AND FOR ALL - AMEN
RIGHT CLICK THE ABOVE LINKS AND OPEN IN NEW TAB OR WINDOW TO AVOID NAVIGATING AWAY FROM THIS WEB PAGE - Enjoy...
The chap that got stung by the jellyfish survived, but most people that get stung by those jellyfish survive. In fact most are discharged from hospital the same day without any symptoms.
I can imagine you'd probably be quite high after being stung by a few though and could well be tripping balls for a while, so I'd personally say any visions/dreams you would have in that state would be from that.
Anyway, the OP asks for proof, but the whole point about believing whatever god you want to believe in, which usually is the one that your parents believe in and depends where you're born in the world is that there is no way of proving anything one way or another.
If people believe or don't believe, it doesn't bother me, whatever makes you happy. As long as you don't try and force your opinion on other people, as I find that irritating. Just let everyone make their own mind up and do whatever they want.
That's NOT what happened in this Case.
Your above data is INCORRECT :
Try telling this to HIS MOTHER !!! You have "conveniently" MISSED this Key Part of The Testimony.
Go get stung by FIVE AT ONCE and see how long you live !!!!
This man is sought after the world over to SPEAK his TRUE TESTIMONY..
Furthermore, RD, if NO-ONE had Preached The Gospel SINCE AD 33.5, THE ENTIRE PLANET WOULD HAVE BURNT UP AND DISAPPEARED A LONG TIME AGO...
You have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
This is THE END OF THIS matter.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIEDQR09 … r_embedded
† Revelation 20 : 5 †
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection."
Jellyfish can be very small, and being stung is like a first degree burn. BUZZKILL. Being stung numerous times is quite uncomfortable. Large jellyfish can kill.
For all pointless arguments against The Truth in this Post :
The Truth Presented Throughout Herein, BY The Christians, can be seen here :
The activities of certain Created souls thoughout herein,
when presented with THE ABOVE, is best seen HERE :
"We" feel pity and remorse for your inane intransigence.
Praying ONE DAY, you Awaken and Receive The Pearls, In The Almighty Name Of The Lord JESUS Christ - Amen and Amen
† Mark 5 : 2 - 13 †
"And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes. And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit, Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains: Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him. And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.
But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many. And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country. Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding. And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them. And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea."
http://www.TheSevenThunders.org/C7-Musi … ndDone.mp3
Grow up. I haven't seen anyone come into the Atheist and Agnosticism forums yet and change someone's mind. Color coded messages which supposedly play on the psyche (colors don't play on my psyche, clinically tested, mother approved ) doesn't do anything but detract from the fact that you might actually have something to say. And I don't think anyone is following your links either.
Ignore it and it will go away. (It hates to be ignored. Can't you tell by all of the bright colors it uses?
Wow! This just keeps on going doesn't it!
I thought this pointless debate thingy would be done and dusted yonks ago but still... it continues.
"I'm right, you are wrong."
"No, I'm right, you are wrong!"
"Rubbish, I'm right."
"I'm right because (opinion)"
Geeeeeeeeeezzzz, give it a rest.
This forum is a reflection of the world at present and one of the reasons humanity just can't seem to get over itself.
Everyone wants to be right.
Everyone needs to live nice and snug knowing that their choice of life is better and more suitable than everyone else's and there will always, i mean ALWAYS be a myriad of ways that one can back that up, no matter how much or how little knowledge they have.
I see it here. People apparently proving each other wrong but providing little or no evidence to back up their claims. Ridiculous and a complete and utter waste of time.
I'm just sayin.
Just have a cyber hug and forget it.
Debating is fun, I get that. But this is no longer debating, it has turned into taunting and mocking from both sides.
Well heck! If a greeter says it's pointless, then what are we doing? Greeters are never wrong!
I wasn't having a go at you personally.
I'm not a greeter. Why would I be a greeter?
I have hopped a couple of hubs and welcomed a couple of newbies I saw but I don't think that classes me as a greeter.
I have only just come back to hubpages this month after a few week hiatus.
You're wrong! I'm right! Thanks for your input. This thread was almost dead until you had to go and post!
Whats this proof idiocy o morons? Who is supposed to proof what to who?
We ALL have a single budden on our backs namely to understand the world and to do that, we MUST make hypothesis. So the question rather turn- what do the hypothesis that we have a soul help us to understand among the miriad of things we utterly don't understand. One such a question is how do we get to have consciousnes?
Here you go matey, some reading material for you.
I've been stung by jellyfish before myself as it happens. It's not a nice feeling. but it wasn't that bad.
You just have to take what this chap who claims he died says with a pinch of salt and then form your own opinion rather than believing everything you read. He may or may not believe it himself. Maybe it really did happen. Or maybe not. I can't say 100% for sure myself and no one else can. But he makes a living from telling other people that it happened..
Anyway as long as you're enjoying yourself, then who cares eh?
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Many believers like to say that Atheists should prove that there is no God. Believers should know that existence has to be proved, not the non-existence. If a thing exists, it is possible to prove its existence. So believers should prove the existence of God if he exists. But if they want to do it,...
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