when did Judaism begin?

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   Robertr04posted 13 years ago

   I was told Judaism began somewhere between the 2nd -5th century. What do you say?

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      pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      judaism is oldest of three Abrahamic religion...infact it is mother of Abrahamic religion....

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         Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         ok pisean, can you give me aprox. dates? My sources are usually reliable, but some one has raised doubt. Help me out.

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            pisean282311posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            @robert historical experts believe judaism is approx 3100 years old...their book is second oldest ...jesus was jew himself...muhammad too mentions moses in quran...if we take holistic view...judaism can be said as first sincere attempt of defining one god and establishing system around this concept...

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         jacharlessposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Judaism cannot possibly be the mother of the Abram theologies, because the tribe of Judah, from where the core beliefs came, did not exist until the formation of the Israel society and culture/tribes.
         
         I stand corrected, but due to various attacks by their neighbors, the tribes merged, with much grumbling, to form a territorial state, still very much nomadic and segregated in their beliefs.
         
         Abram was not a "Jew" because the term comes to them much, much later, during the Assyrian/Babylonian occupation. A "Jew" is not defined solely by circumcision, but by association of its community. Hence the saying, once a Jew always a Jew. you cannot be excommunicated from your community, your kind, even if you depart. Also, it is one of the ways slaves were identified. If one recalls, the Hebrew tribes were not the only ones enslaved by Egypt, Assyrians or Romans.

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      livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Although Jewish myself, I do not believe the Hebrew calendar's dating (it's off on the creation date by about 4.5 billion years). The historical record points to an earliest date of about 11th century BCE, although this is the dawn of recorded history, so exact dates are impossible and we have no idea if any peoples who would eventually be known as Hebrews, Israelites, and, finally, Jews, existed before then.
      
      Judaism has always been the religion of the Jewish people, but that religion has always been under a process of evolution. What we practice today (rabbinical Judaism) did not exist prior to the 2nd century CE; almost no Jews practice Biblical Judaism (i.e. sacrificing animals in the Temple, etc.).

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      Jesus was a hippyposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Who told you that? The Old testament (or the Torah) was written in about 900BC

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      Chris Nealposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      This is all pretty interesting!

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         Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

         I think so. Can appreciate your scholarship and anyone elses.

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   couturepopcafeposted 13 years ago

   • The history of Judaism begins with Abraham, who came to believe in one Supreme Being,
   • his son Isaac,
   • Isaac's son Jacob, later called Israel,
   • and Jacob's 12 sons who founded the twelve tribes of Israel
   
   According to Jewish tradition, Abraham was born under the name Abram in the city of Ur in Babylonia in the year 1948 from Creation (circa 1800 BCE). He was the son of Terach, an idol merchant, but from his early childhood, he questioned the faith of his father and sought the truth. He came to believe that the entire universe was the work of a single Creator, and he began to teach this belief to others.
   
   G-d led them on a journey through the wilderness to Mount Sinai. Here, G-d revealed Himself to the Children of Israel and offered them a great covenant: if the people would hearken to G-d and observe His covenant, then they would be the most beloved of nations, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. (Ex 19). G-d revealed the Torah to his people, both the written and oral Torah, and the entire nation responded, "Everything that the L-rd has spoken, we will do!" According to Jewish tradition, every Jewish soul that would ever be born was present at that moment, and agreed to be bound to this covenant.
   
   http://www.jewfaq.org/origins.htm
   
   So somewhere between 1800 BCE and 1600 BCE?

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      Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Ok guys, I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to gain some common ground here. Was Abraham a Jew and if you believe so, why? And where did the term judaism come from?

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         BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No, Abraham was not a Jew. The word Jew originally referred to a member of the kingdom of Judah after the separation of 10 of the 12 tribes of Israel.

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         livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         No, Abraham was not a Jew. He was the "first" (according to Biblical sources) monotheist. The first (what would later be called) Jew was Jacob (later renamed Israel, "one who wrestles with G-d").
         
         Judaism means the religion of (the tribes of) Judah, specifically when the kingdom of Israel, when sacked by the Assyrians, fled south and joined the kingdom of Judah. At that point, all Hebrews/Israelits/Judeans were Jews.
         
         That's about as specific as you can get when it comes to matters that are so old that the historical and mythical records blur.

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            Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            This is not a personal attack towards you livelonger, your faith, or your people. The other day I made a comment in another thread( christianity and gays) about something you said. You told me my info was incorrect so I had to go back over my  research on  my position and this is some of what I came up with. Being that there is no 'J' in the paleo Hebrew language(not sure about modern), the earliest manuscripts of the bible did not use the name Judah or Jews for that matter, because they did not exist. ' J' was not added to the English language until somewhere in 1600-1700. There was no 'J' in the Greek language either, therefore the term Jew did not come into existence until around the same time period. Judaism- the religion of the Jews/Jews collectively. Jews also a nickname for Jewish culture. The divided nation was Israel and Yahudah. They were called Yahudi and/or Israelites. There were no Jews. Jacob was not a Jew either because first there was no such  word and his son Yahudah(Judah) the tribes namesake, had not been born yet. They were Hebrew/Israelites during and past the time of Jesus. Original text, John 4:22- "You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Israelites." Hebrew/Israelites were not Jews. Is it possible for us to agree on the above statements? This does in no way change what Yahusha (Jesus) said or meant, it just changes the Name of who said it. This will become an important issue more quickly than most want to admit. I would appreciate your and anyone elses thoughts so that I and others can continue our never ending search for truth.

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               livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I was not offended. But I think those are two different matters (etymology and theology).
               
               You are right that the English "J" sound is not used in the Hebrew (and many other languages') word for Jews - Yehud(i). But the way different people pronounce words doesn't have anything to do with theology.
               
               Yehudi used to mean only those people living in the land of Judah (Yehud). But when Israel and Judah merged, all of those people became Judeans or Jews. This was well before Jesus's time, so by the time he was around, they were all Jews.

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                  Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  Alright LL, lets put your boots on cause it's going to get deep. Actually in this case and many other cases, it's one and the same, etymology  and theology. A word translated badly or just flat out wrong can change the meaning or concept greatly. Judah  is the English translation of the Hebrew word Yahudah. The word Jew did'nt exist until 16th, 17th century.  So just from a logical point of view, it could not have existed in Abraham's day, Jacob's day, or Yahusha (Jesus') day or any day too soon after. Again it was the nickname of the people who followed Judaism. By me going into this as deep as I intend to, there will be a matter of heritage brought to the front. The Jews who now reside in Israel today are not the Israelites of the bible. I had planned on writing a hub about this but every time I write one they say someone has already covered the subject. Even though I never see the material, with so many hubs already written, how can I be certain? No matter, we will discuss it now. Oh, Mischevious. This might take more than one paragraph, sorry, but I will keep it a brief as possible. If I leave any blanks, by all means speak up. This will deal for the most part with the sons of Noah, Shem and Japheth.  From Shem's lineage (Gen. 11:10-27) we get Abraham and the Hebrews. From Japheth's lineage ( Gen. 10:2-5) we get a people called Ashkenazi and later called Khazars. Here we also get a glimpse of the Gentiles. Shem was the father of all Hebrews. Abraham was Hebrew (Gen 14:13). Abraham's son Ishmael was Hebrew, not Muslim or Arabic. Abraham's son Isaac was Hebrew. Isaac's son Jacob was Hebrew. Jacob's name was later changed to Israel, he gave birth to the nation of Israel. Who were also Hebrew ( Ex. 10:3). An important fact. Today, any citizen of the land of Israel is not Israelite , but actually Israeli. Before there was a land known as Israel, there were a people known as Israelites. As you have been shown, these were Hebrews and not citizens of a particular region. Notice how many citizens of America are Americans, but there are many different ethnic groups that make up America. In the modern day land of Israel, there are Jews, Muslims, Turks, Armenians, Pakistani, and many other ethnic groups, but they are all referred to as Israeli because of their citizenship, not necessarily the bloodline. Many people accredit the Jews as being one of the tribes of Israel, commonly known as the tribe of Yahudah/Judah. Abraham was Hebrew, therefore his descendants were Hebrew. This would make the Jews bloodline the same as the Hebrews correct? Not even close! With a little research you will discover that the people we refer to as Jews are actually called Ashkenazi or Sephardic Jews. People known as Ashkenazi Jews occupy 85% of the land known as Israel. We can read of Ashkenaz in the scriptures, the sons of Japheth, Gomar and Magog (familiar?) and Mady, and Yun, and Tabal, and Mashak, and Tyras. And the sons of Gomar: Ashkenaz, and Rypheth, and Tagaramah ( Gen. 10:2-3). As you can see, even in Scripture, Ashkenazi ( Jews) are the sons of Japheth and not the sons of Shem. Shem and Shem alone is referred to as the father of all Hebrews, not Ashkenazi ( Jews). These Jews were later known as Khazars and have no part of the inheritance of Israel. I've left out a lot, but that's not what is important. Fellowship with Yahuah is not about race, it is about obedience. No one knows where ( of course there will be claims) the twelve tribes are today, but we can identify who his covenant people were. The word of Yahuah speaks for itself and we should search the scriptures daily in order to know for sure if what we are learning is the truth(Acts 17:11).

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                     livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     This is more or less the type of argument we hear from "Black Hebrew Israelites". It doesn't really have any logical basis, but you're free to believe it. I don't.

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                        Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        It's backed with scripture.all the logic in the world. I can go on with more proof if you like?  I know the truth can be shocking at times, hardly ever, if at all misleading. If you have evidence to refute..... I had problems at first myself, but it's all there and more. I'm grafted.

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                     BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Robertr04, what does when the word "Jew" existed have do do with it?
                     
                     "Jew" is a King James word. When did the word "Iudaeus" exist? Well, it's in the 4th century Vulgate. How about the Greek word "Ioudaios" I wonder. And what about "Yehudi" I might ask. Now there's a good question.

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                        Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        AS was stated earlier, Jew is the nickname of Judaism. Judaism is the religion of the Jews. Neither word existed in Abraham's time, Isaac's time, Jacob's time, or Yahusha's (Jesus') time. Yahudi/Israelites was what the people of Yahudah were called in biblical times. That happens to be long before 4th century vulgate.

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                           BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                           Oh, for Christ's sake.
                           
                           The Greek word "ioudaios" occurs hundreds of times in the NT. Is that during Yahusha's (Jesus') time?
                           
                           Keep chasing your tail.

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                              Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                              The N.T. was written well after Yahusha had died.  Judah is an English translation. Were they speaking English at that time?

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      Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      The key here is scripture, not tradition. Tradition unfortunately does not have to be the truth. We have already covered the fact that Abraham was not a Jew. Again in the original Hebrew text the word Jew is not found. The tradition of Judaism is not found. The Jews are of the lineage of Japheth, the Hebrews are of the lineage of Sham/Shem. What it does, is  make them relatives, along with the sons of Yam/Ham. Can we agree on that? Hey Chris, this is really going to be interesting.

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         livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Who were the people Haman was trying to kill in the book of Esther?

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            Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Glad to see ya back bra. They were Hebrew/Israelites. Again the original Hebrew text does not use the terms Jew or Judaism. The Jews are of the lineage of Japheth, the Hebrew are of the lineage of Shem.  Go back over that whole section and see all of the interesting details about who is who. There are a lot of questions answered about where people came from and where they went or could it be you believe the teachings of the Talmud over the Bible as it directs you to? Come on LL, you have no scriptual grounds to stand on.

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               livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

               I think you need to reread the text. Start with 2:5, for example.

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                  Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  I don't see anything different. Gen. 11:10-29 Abraham was of the lineage of Shem. What changed since the last time we spoke?

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                     livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                     Did you read the Book of Esther? In the original Hebrew? I even provided a link to the interlinear text.

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                        Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                        LL, I know you are trying to make a point, but I'm missing it. Please point it out. I've read Esther and I'm not sure where you're going with that.  I did not  not receive the link. Please try again.

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                           livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                           Try clicking on the blue text in my previous post. You know, a link.

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                              Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                              Tried that yesterday, here is what It says. 403 Forbidden. You are not allowed to access this page. Possible problems, missing index file, misconfigured mod rewrite settings in htacess, authentatification failure, incorrect file or folder permission, servage.net clustered webhosting running enhanced apache webserver.

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                                 livelongerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                 Click on Esther 2 here:
                                 http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInte … _Index.htm
                                 
                                 If that doesn't work, refer to Esther 2:5 in your interlinear Hebrew:English Bible...you mentioned that you had access to one.

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                                    Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                                    I use J.P. Green Interlinear Bible Heb. Grk. Eng. and about 10 other references that I listed on a response to a hub. The reason being this is the only complete interlinear bible available in English And is also convenient in one volume. Comes in 4 volumes also (easier on the eyes), but enough of the sales pitches. In Hadasah/Ester 2:5, only an English bible would say " Mordacai the Jew." In a interlinear bible of reputation the English is written in under the Hebrew and the actual Hebrew says "Maradaky the Yahudy". Even today, there is no J in Hebrew, never has been, but also we must read the Hebrew without vowel points. J is 100% English, it never called him a Jew. I read the link you sent. Machine translations are notorious for this type of translation as they simply employ a database of words in their translations. Now what you need to pay attention to, is the fact, that particular edition is using Modern/Yiddish instead of paleo (ancient Hebrew). Notice the use of Elohim/God and Yahweh. Where ancient Hebrew says Alahym/Mighty One and Yahuah the true Name of the Creator. I wrote a hub on this. As I wrote the other day Hebrew and Jew are both modern words, you have to look at the true words: Abar/Ebar came to be Hebrew vs Ashkenaz (Ashkenazi Jews). The Jews are also found by their true name again in Yaram Yahu/Jeremiah 51:27. There are many passages that prove 100% Jews are not Yashar'al/Israel.

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   Druid Dudeposted 13 years ago

   Judaism began after Israel...or at least eleven tribes (Including Benjamin) disappeared. Judaism is the belief system of the tribe of Judah...hence the word Judaism and Jew. This would be probably around the time of Darius of the Persian empire.

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      Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Jesus was a Jew and was aware of that fact. What he taught, he claimed was of Judaic belief...the Jews considered him a blasphemer.

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         Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         More: The basis for what we know as Judaism was already becoming recognizable in the time of Jesus. Young Jews became men at thirteen, and usually followed in their father's footsteps, such as carpentry, but the gospel is, is that Jesus was found at the age of twelve discussing the Torah with the priests, and when asked what he had been doing, he said he was  "about my father's business!" clearly showing that he was never to be a carpenter...ever. There is a legend that says that Jesus was next, in the company of Joseph of Arimathea.

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      BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, around the time of Darius makes sense to me.
      
      That would have been around a hundred years before Ahasuerus (Xerses) of the book of Esther. There we find the word "Jew" if you are reading English. Please refer to the Masoretic text if you are reading Hebrew.
      
      Although I'm reluctant to rely on the Bible as a historical source, lest the village atheists go bananas. They have this fixation on monkeys.

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         Druid Dudeposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Once Judah was on it's own, Judaism began to form.

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            livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            ...although much of Jewish religion and tradition predates the merger of Israel and Judah. There's a lot of evolution, change, and transformation throughout the history of what we now call Judaism, even today.

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      Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Read the Interlinear text which is the original Hebrew. Again Judah is a English translation. How could that word possibly exist when the English language did not exist? Now I understand that it may be hard to fathom that the Jews are not who they say they are, so show in the scriptures, back up what you say. Do you want more proof?

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   BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 13 years ago

   OK, I get it Robertr04, you are trying to win a bar bet.
   
   You state in your original post "you were told Judaism began somewhere between the 2nd-5th century."
   
   Now we find that out from you that Judaism and Jews could not have existed before then because they are English words and the English language did not originate until the 2nd-5th century.
   
   So Josephus could not have written "Antiquities of the Jews" around 93 AD because the English language did not exist at that time. Right?

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      livelongerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      It explains why they call themselves "Black Hebrew Israelites" and not "Jews" since they seem to be fixated on this term, and how it's used in English (oddly).

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      Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Maybe I'm wrong but I did'nt know the English language was around in 93Ad. What language washe using? Besides if I had made my statements without scripture, you would be all over me about scripture. Where is yours? That would solve the problem. You can't come up with any. What you say is not the truth. Now what may have happened is you finally saw the truth. I brought this whole thing up because LL made a statement in another thread about the Talmud. I know that certain sects of Judaism regard this book above scripture.What I tought I said was that the Talmud was created Somewhere between 2nd-5th century. I have seen some est. as early as 130CE. It is not from the biblical Hebrews, they had no knowledge of Talmud. They only knew Turah and Scripture. The Talmud is a collection of rabbinic writings. Jews say these writings are the oral law of Israel, everything Moses did'nt write down on Mt. sinai is said to be in the Talmud. Example; How to slaughter animals etc. That's strange because nowhere in the 66 books of scripture or the books that were removed do we see any mention of Talmud or oral law. Oral law is another name the Jews used for Talmud. If you notice, many of the names of the prophets and gospel writers had part of the Creator's Name in their name "Yah", just as the Son did, Yahusha. The name of the nation Yashar'al/Israel, Yahudah/Judah, Yahrusalem/Jerusalem, all Hebrew words. The second word behind the slash is English. There was no English language at that time. I know it's hard to except the fact that the Jews and many more are imposters, but that's the reality of the matter. You can't come up with one, not a dozen, but you can't come up with one verse to back up what you say. I said before this is not about race, it's about truth. When He comes back to claim His own, race,creed, religion, and all the other bs will be thrown out the window. We will all be one. Don't take this as a personal attack on the Jews, they're just one of many false religions, teaching false doctrine. I always say don't take my word for it, read it for yourself. BAGJ you must be a Jew. One verse.

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         BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 13 years agoin reply to this

         Well, actually the title of Josephus' work was "loudaike Archaiologia"  and it was written in Greek and later, once English was invented, became "Antiquities of the Jews" to those who prefer English. Of course, Josephus, being a Jew (no wait, the word had not been invented yet), could have written it in Hebrew. But then it would have been all Greek to the Greek audience he was attempting to educate.
         
         No, I'm not a Jew. I'm a Nazi. A grammar Nazi. It is not "did'nt" like in your first sentence. It's not the grammar I object to most in the rest of your post. It's the babble-on (Babylon).

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            Robertr04posted 13 years agoin reply to this

            Looks as if Josephus had problems with fraud. But I understand Jack. Scripture sometimes when you need it can be hard to find. But I like your spirit, keep reaching. Shalum

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   kessposted 13 years ago

   The Jews are an ofshoot from the hebrews/ israelites.
   Hebrews are named after Heber, grandson to Shem, the high priest of the earth in His time.
   
   Heber was alive at the time Abraham, recieved the priesthood from  Shem(melchizedek) and passed on in the lineage of Abraham, though Abraham himself was never priest. This is the priesthood Esau rejected and gave unto Israel/ Jacob.
   
   Jacob first born he too reject the priesthood by sleeping with his fathers wife, thus it was given onto Levi as priest and Judah as King.
   
   This is the origin of the Jews as a people, they assume the heritage of Judah, gain strenght in Egypt under Moses and deviated from the understanding of God as taught by the Hebrews. And they begin the faith that is established in writings rather than Spirit.
   
   The influences of falsehood manifested in the desert when they compelled Aaron to make them a calf to worship, and also the eventuallity of their division and separation in the land of caanan.
   
   For the influences false hood cause tbem to follow men and titles, which the  writings have made relevant after moses had passed on.
   
   The term Jews though derived from Judah applies to the entire tribes of Isreal for they all were led astray by their thinking.

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      Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Hey kess how are you? Ok I have heard Melchizedek  may have been Yahusha (Jesus) but Shem? Please bring me the scripture or  whatever references you are using so I may take a closer look into what you are saying.  Are you out to confuse me? I'm under the impression Esau was first born and Jacob stole his birth rights. Please correct me if this is wrong. Again, where are you getting your info from? The Jews are an offshoot of Japheth his grandson Ashkenaz (Gen. 10:2-5). The Hebrews are an offshoot of Shem (Gen. 10:20-30 and Gen. 11:10-27).

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         Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Since Hebrew and Jew are both modern words, you have to look at the true words: Abar (Eber- came to be Hebrew) vs Askenaz (Askenazie Jews) The Jews are also found by their true name again in Yaram Yahu/ Jeremiah 51:27. Read the entire chapter and discover their place in prophesy. There are many passages that prove 100%, Jews are not Yashar'al/Israel.

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            Robertr04posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            I feel like writing today. On this thread, it seems we have strayed into areas of little importance (I'll take the blame). What I was hoping to bring to folk's attention was a closer look at the genealogy of Noah. I'm really surprised no one has made mention of it. We all come from the same seed. Maybe this is a well know fact and everyone just took it for granted. There are those (in this world) who have stepped in for one reason or another to try to hide this fact, did a pretty good job of it I might add. Religion and politics have become one and the same, big business and power. Everybody playing "king of the hill."  Well it's still Yah's hill and He is the only King. On His Son's return we will be gathered as one nation, with one language, finally the superiority and inferiority complexes and "I'm better than you," will come to and end. Can we agree on that?

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