What about Hell?
Hey theists I was wondering what your perspectives on Hell are. I am a fairly new Christian and I have not yet come to terms with the concept of Hell.
I have been doing a lot of readings about Hell and the original meaning of the word, plus the meaning of the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek words Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna. These are often translated to Hell although I do not know how accurate that is.
The original meaning of Hell was grave, same with Sheol. Gehenna was an actual place, a really scary place at that.
Some people are of the opinion that Hell just means the grave, others believe that Hell is a place of fire and suffering (which seems to come from the Pagan understanding of Hell).
I have not studied it enough to really understand the concept of Hell or what Jesus was talking about exactly in relation to Hell.
I was wondering what your thoughts are.
I am not asking you if Hell exists, or not. I am only asking you what you think the Bible documents were referring to.
What do you think?I think that Hell will be the second death. God is a consuming fire, and in the end, those who are bound hell will be consumed in fire. They will not be suffering throughout eterniuty. they will simply be burned into nonexistence. Just an opinion.
But He is! The fact is tha any little sin we commit, even my arguing with somebody, will keep us out of the presence of a Holy God forever (i.e. we can never get into Heaven based on our own merit.)
God loved us so much that He sent the one and only sacrifice that would ever be good enough for us to get into Heaven, His only Son!
But that doesn't mean we have to accept that. Many don't. It's all about free will. But if you don't accept Him, He is not required to accept you! And that definitely goes for me too.
Revelation refers to a lake of fire. And the New Jerusalem will allow in only the believers, the ones approved by God. The rest will be kept out.
I'm not sure what hell will be like, but it's clear from Scripture that there will be an eternity where those who don't believe will be kept apart from God forever, which in itself would be Hell if you know He's inside the walls and you can't get there.Most of the World's people are kept away from your Yahweh anyway. Is hell on earth for the masses now, plus in their afterlife?
How do you figure most are kept away? "Most" have access to not only information about Him but also can talk to people about Him. Granted, in many places this can be dangerous or even fatal, but the access is still there.
I guess you don't get out much.
From touring every continent on earth, I can tell you from experience, most of the world's population is not aware of BIG JCOh, OUCH! Hurt me some more!
It's tue that I have never left the US, although that doesn't mean I'm totally ignorant of the rest of the world. I don't want to make assumptions about your experiences and who you've talked to while sailing the seven seas, but I find it hard to believe that "most of the world's population" is unaware of the name of Jesus. Do I think most of the population has an in depth knowledge of Christian history and doctrines, even from the point of view of people who don't like Christianity? No, but I think most of the world has at least heard the name Jesus and the word Christian.http://www.prisoneralert.com/vompw_persecution.htm
These are the countries where people may not hear Jesus' name. The number is growing. Since last year two more hostile countries have been added to the list. There are currently 53 countries where talking about Jesus' is illegal.
The interesting thing is to look at the underground Christian movements in these places. People are still going there and trying to spread word about Christ. China is an amazing example. You should look it up
I get the prisoner alerts in my email.
I probably shouldn't have been surprised that Yousef Nadarkhani's lawyer was arrested.
In my country, a 100 years ago christians was 98% of the population, today it's less than 50%. It's hard for a christian to believe that most people are not aware of JC within the total population. It's mainly because most people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear within there own geographic and not bothering to check the facts or experience it in reality like I have.
Saying that less than 50% of a population are Christian and saying that less than 50% of a population have heard of Jesus are not the same thing.
How much do you know about Ali and the Islam Religion. You as a christian would block out the other 10'000 other religion as well and their Gods too.
It would a sin to seek other gods or Religions, that is how Religion keep you blind. Atheists know more about World religion than Religious people doIt is a sin to place other gods above God, but it is not a sin to learn about other people, gods, cultures etc. The God of Christianity encourages Christians to seek knowledge and understand the world around them. The exact opposite of what you are accusing. Whether or not Christians do seek this knowledge is up to individuals, but you cannot categorize a group as blind to the different religions. I am guessing you are an atheist? Tell me a little about the religions you know about.
Exodus 20:3 "You shall have no other gods before me.
No other gods before me is one of the Ten Commandments
Matthew 6:24; “No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Albert Einstein said Religion is blind and Science is lame. I wish not to be either and think everyone and thing is God as in nature. Most of the religion I know is from world travels , family and Museum work
Oh, I'm pretty sure you would be surprised...
Aagh! I hate to say this, but I may have to stop these forums, they've become a huge time suck. It's now Monday night and I have 122 posts to look at from forums I'm following, and I'm just getting to stuff from Saturday morning! I don't even remember what I was talking about! I'll have to go back and look it up!
Sorry!Although I'm not an expert on world religions, many theological institutions teach comparative religion and world religions. It's not at all difficult to find Christian sources detailing the beliefs and practices of other religions. It's true that most of the time they do this to compare them to Christianity, Islam and Hinduism have similar functions. But the point you were making was that Religion (here I'm assuming you were talking about religion in general, not just Christianity) so binds the people within it that they are made afraid to really look into other relgions and it's not true.
What do you know of Janism, buddhism, shinto? Probably nothing more than your uneducated, culturally biased pastor told you.
No, that's not true. But even if it were, that would make me more knowledgeable about them then you are about me.
Why are you so angry. I like to talk to people who disagree with me, as long as it's understood that we're both reasonable, adult human beings. I haven't read that many of your posts, but what I've read so far didn't prepare me for the things you've said to me in the last couple of days. Why do you assume that I'm ignorant, and why do you then feel the freedom to look down on me about it? So openly? Have I don't that to you? If I have, then I apologize, but unfortunately I'm only human and when I'm attacked I tend to respond.
Hell is a place of eternal damnation, separation from God. The Bible speaks of hell as a place of fire, worms and unquenchable thirst:
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched'' (Mark 9:43-48).
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." (Luke 16:19-26)
Christ holds the keys to death and hell which will ultimately have to give up its wicked dead for judgment. "Sheol" and "Hades" (the present hell) will then come to an end and "Gehenna" (the "Lake of Fire") will take its place. (http://www.bible.com/bibleanswers_result.php?id=248)
Revelation 20:1-3: "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."
"I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death" (Revelation 1:18).
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, From whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire"(Revelation 20:10-15).All this talk about judging, sin, fire and brimstone would be a personal hell and would not wish upon anyone's prisoned mind, I'm happy to live without fear of God or hell.
Hell, in context, is The Grave.
Y`shua took the keys of death AND Hell from ha-satan {the mind};
The text clearly states, those of the first resurrection {rev 20.5; 20.14} witnessed death and hell destroyed and the kingdom of hæven restored {21.1...} -to those exercising practical faith/ walking in spirit.
This is why the resurrection is such a widely viewed -and often controversial- topic and quite possibly the most dynamic event in human history. An event that has peaked more than just the curiosity of people. If humans had to die to get to hæven anyway, what was the point of the resurrection to begin with. Physically escaping the grave is possibly the most powerful thing humans can relate to, since the notion of death never escapes human thought. And their thoughts are precisely that: a prison of madness.
JamesHell or Satan is just a word or a thought, personal hell on earth is actual believing these demons exist for me, which they do not, We all have free will to choice our personal hell, your choice of hell is something you can't see or prove and fear most.
...in your opinion. lol
Hell to me -as the concept is often translated- does not exist.
Therefore even a personal hell also does not exist.
A personal hell is no different than the religious personal relationship with Jesus concept. They are identical at their root - the ego.
Choice is not hell, it is madness. Huge difference. Madness, which is a type of amnesia and often titled by several mental disorders, can be cured.
Therefore, choice can be superseded and Free Will exercised, without the fanfare, voo-doo woo-doo. Choice has fear, doubt, belief, disbelief, etc. Free Will is void of them -meaning not subjected to them, because they are simply processes of the mind.
Again, in context, the term means grave.
Oddly enough, this was original reason the concept which became Christianity was formed and also where Gnosticism was born. Although many pagan and ba`al practices spoke of the probability of coming back to life -in many varying degrees, no singular group emphatically stated it happened, by none other than a poor, ostracized young adult and his band of merry fishermen. Such events/ideas were entertainment for the elite, the powerful, not the ordinary crop grower or housewife.
I can both see and prove the grave, anyone can, quite easily. So, that is hogwash. As for fear, that is moot. Fear is ha-satan. The word itself defines it: opposition; hindrance.
James.Who create Satan?
mmm God maybe, it seems Satan came from the same group that create him. In order to create fear, it's a hell of a way to liveSatan capitalized "s" does not exist. Never did, never will.
Show me when and where Creator made this "immortal enemy" of mankind.
"Satan" is mythology. The pictorials are from various ba`al leftover belief systems.God has perfect foreknowledge. He is omniscient or all-knowing. Job 37:16;
But God did know in advance that Satan would sin.
Make up my mind if your going to brain wash itInnocuous.
Again, show where this "Satan" was created; how "it" became the "immortal enemy" of mankind. There is NO such entity.
ha~satan is an adjective describing the ego in humans. ha~satan tested Jobs character -his conviction that he was in right-mindedness; testing him to the point of near death itself.
If one reads Job completely, it becomes very clear and evident. The period of time under which this battle of the mind occurred is the most interesting thing within the entire novella -it wasn't minutes or days but rather years.
His ego -way of thinking- caused him to lose his family, sanity, land/business and nearly his own life.
JamesWhat a bunch of bs, blaming and fighting games, Cristian have invented . Lucifer’s job to protect the very earth he corrupted. God create man and angel even the fallen angels like Satan with free will.
Did God create everything, or is that a lie, because there is no two ways about it?oye!
There is NO Lucifer.
It is lucem ferre.
Lucifer did not corrupt the planet, MAN DID by his indulgence of self {ha-satan}, ego, mind. ( see genesis for details )
Fallen messengers of light?
How is that even possible? Angels have no free will,
They exist ONLY to serve the Creator.
This story of fallen angels, Satan-Lucifer are Ba`al stories.
Wake up and smell the salvation, man.
Yeats & Keating!Angel were clearly not robots unable to do anything but obey, they were fallen angels who sinned God.
Satan rebelled against God and 1/3 of the Angels followed him. How can this be if they have no free will?
In the beginning God created mankind, and everything and gave us free will,Prove it. Show me where these angels "fell" and became "demons".
There is no textual record of such a thing ever happening.(Isaiah 14, Ezekiel 28), one third of the angelic host joined his insurrection (
Revelation 12:3-4, 9). There is no doubt these fallen angels are now known as the demons.1. Isaiah 14: has nothing to do with an entity named Lucifer.
In fact, it specifically speaks of Babylon and the King of the City.
You will note in that passage it states Babylon itself will bring Israel back to its own land -all its people- AND assist in restoring them. lol. And historically that exact thing happened.
It then goes on to degree the trees will shout with joy at the Babylonians and no woodsman would raise an ax against them (the trees). The next verse is the most important: it says the Grave {Pit, Sheol, Hell} will rise up to meet this king. So, how could this possibly be an angel? Further, it states because of his arrogance the maggots and worms would cover him up. Again, a man, not an angel. AND No where does it mention a massive 1/3 of angels falling and becoming demons.
2. Ezekiel 28: It specifically says, "you are just a man, weak and feeble" referencing the Prince of Tyre. Not an entity named Satan or Lucifer AND still no mention of angels falling and becoming demons. AND precisely why would Ezekiel lament over some "fallen" or deluded angelic wannabe-god?
3. Revelation 12:3-4,9 : This is a "sign" a "vision" or a pictorial dream representing Mary or Israel, and the birth of the messiah. Note she was with child -the one who was destined to shepherd.
Now, here is the only place, in nearly 7,000 years of Hebrew history that the first mention of "fallen angels" occurs. So, let's be clear: when the messiah is still in the womb and Mary flees to Egypt, to get away from this dragon, all of a sudden a war breaks out in heaven of all places and for no apparent reason). Michal fights against the dragon, kicks him out of heaven, while is on earth waiting to catch the newborn baby from Mary. How can he be in two places at once?
This passage is believed by many scholars to be referencing Herod Archelaus, the Edomite, who was considered one of the most ruthless leaders of his day, ordering the death of every new born male in Israel. In short a sweeping genocide because he knew of the prophecy. Note the number 3 1/2 years. Precisely 3 1/2 years after Joseph fled to Egypt, Herod Archelaus was banished and assassinated. When Joseph received the dream to return, his is given confirmation the Herod Archelaus is dead. Later on, his brother (Herod Antipas) would be responsible for the beheading of John the Baptizer.
So, none of the three tie together. They are each separate instances and three different people. none specify demons or such things.
I am well aware most want to believe it, but the question to me is WHY? WHY do you want to believe in this devil/satan/lucifer at all. WHY would Creator make such a creature, empower it and set it loose on his most valued creation : YOU ???
James.James the coming of light into the darkness, is the coming of the duality of the nature of man as well as the nature of angels.
While With the Father, this duality though it exist, is not made manifest.
It's manisfestation only occurs on contact with darkness.
So we have Lucifer as an angel of Light,
The coming og Light into darkness represents his falling, and satan is the manisfestation of his opposing nature.
It is exactly the same way with the Christ, in the darkness comes the manisfestation of the antichrist, the opposing nature of the Christ.
And it is the same way with you, you are now facing and in contention with your opposing nature.
Why is it so?
So that you can come to full knowledge of yourself, while in heaven, there is no way you would have the opportunity to see your dark nature to Triumph over it.
So while you were exactly right, it is also true as Castle indicated...
As is recorded about the Christ wrestling with Satan in the wilderness, it was indeed himself, as the manisfestation of his opposing nature, being made a reality as a "living" spirit.
And the same of any and every demon, which is the manisfestation of the opposing nature of any and every angel.
So while indeed to God and his sons they do not exist, yet for a while ( within the context of time) they are made a reality for the perfecting of the Kingdom of the Father.
So those who go astray by revelation of their opposing nature by becoming it, they are actually the living manisfestation of this nature destines to die... Their return to their first place of abode, bottemless pit outter darkness.
Sons of Belial, Son of darkness joint heirs with satan.
I think James' point is supposed to be that Lucifer is a human invention. Remember that he is arguing from a Jewish viewpoint, although that's kind of like saying "Christian viewpoint" because there's a lot of room for variation. But I've heard people argue this before, that Lucifer/Satan/Beelzebub is a purely human invention. I don't agree with it, but I think that's what he believes.
James, if I'm wrong I'm sorry.Not At All, Chris.
The viewpoint is from both textual and historical accounts.
There is no historical record, in Judaism, of such an entity or 1/3 of the angelic host having ever rebelled. such an event would be foremost on their minds, especially if these little critters were infesting the earth, like X-Files aliens. In actuality, until the mid-14th century, there was no account of a Satan/Lucifer, etc, by title -as a being or entity.
Howeaver, there is considerable historical reference and pictorials from ba`al practices. Not surprising, the literal translation of baal means god {one of the many reasons I refuse to use the term g/god in association with Creator}. The term originates from lord or master, generally imposed to landlords or a slaves owner. They were looked upon as evil people.
Several unearthing have found that Baal Hadad was a pagan deity - the prince of Hell {the Grave} and that a cemetery or tomb/temple was constructed as worship of this deity ba`al`zubub, meaning the master of flies. Flies were synonymous with death and decay -again the grave.
Because the translations were skewed -especially the Greek translation of dæmon to demon by 14th century scribes and increase of paganism during the dark ages, Dante's Inferno, etc, it only makes sense that during this time surfaced the first written work of demonology -supposed of a Satan and angelic beings gone bad. This replaced standard pagan beliefs systems, and sort of melded them into Christianity, as to win over their enemies, and add fuel to the social control system of the Church.
In Torah any reference to unclean or evil refers directly to the human ego and story-wise, often came attached with the mirror activity of their pagan neighbors, which was a reminder to them not to go there. It is also why traditional Hebrews when fasting or in a "grave" state of mind were known to put ashes on their heads and old, rotting sacks.
In summary, the ego of humans -their ha~satan {literally translated destroy, oppress, accuse, stumble, veer from} - causes them to become baal-like creatures. This mentality leads to one place -decay and death- the grave. This is precisely what Y`shua said and taught about, and also why the event of resurrection marks the only event of its kind. Man escapes the grave {hell, pit, sheol} without his own ego/power/logic/sorcery ?!
James.I appreciate the lesson, although I already knew about ba'al'zabub. I had a little trouble following the "ego" statements, and I really didn't follow the last paragraph. I just need to read it a few more times.
ha-satan, from where Christians, etc get Satan is an adjective or description of the human ego. The ego or thinking of man opposes, is adverse to, diverts, distracts, tempts the individual away from their true nature.
So if one had an "unclean spirit" it did not mean a demon/fallen angel infested/possessed them, it meant their ego/mindset was not correct or righteous, resulting in a torrent of mental, physical and emotions afflictions. The term ha-satan appears thousands of times in Torah, the Letters and Epistles yet not once is a Satan or demon, as defined by Christians, etc mentioned.
I hope that helps?!
James.
But what about the devil Jesus met in the desert, and what about the devil who He said He saw fall from Heaven?
Although I disagree with James about the existence of satan (and I know you don't believe he exists) he doees have a point that the way most people "see" satan is a holdover from Catholic imagery in the early centuries. The cloven hooves are from Pan, the red suit and horns on his head are inventions of poets and playwrites.
Still, Hell exist in the King James Bible 54 times, did Hitlers take over Satan 's job of torture? Since, God has not spoken to the devil for a 1000 years some Christian must have made up the news somehow
Let me be clear that I do believe in the existence of hell and the existence of the devil. I don't think he's to blame for every bad thing that people do, but I believe he exists nonetheless.
Hitler didn't take over satan's job. He did fulfill what satan would like to see in everyone here on Earth.
Just because there's no recorded conversation doesn't mean that God and the devil don't communicate. We don't know.
Knowing you don't believe this, I still have to say: yes he does. Jesus even spoke of seeing him fall from Heaven.
I think you should walk away before they rot your brain with their soul poison. If you have any doubts as to the validity of what they say, it's probably best to leave it alone.
Umm that is exactly the way to rot your brain in my opinion. If you have doubts about something the best thing to do is to research and find answers. Think about it critically. Choosing to be ignorant is the worst possible thing to do :s
I was christian, until I went to college and all that sugar coating was gone.
calynbana,you start off saying that the original meaning of hell was the grave. Was there scripture or did the translation of the words used change their meaning? Or was it once again man doing the changing of meaning?
It was just the natural evolution of language. Similar to the way the word gay has evolved over the years. Very interesting to look at the meaning behind words years ago.
Look up the definitions of the words sheol and hades, they still mean grave. There has been no evolution, there has been, as in many cases a mistranslation (being nice) or flat out corruption. Is it that hard to believe that man has shaken things up to promote a view that is advantageous to himself or his particular belief. I read this debate every day in hp. No wonder there is so much discredit given to what pro-religious folks are saying, they have issues with the basics. Even Jonah said he was in hell, in the belly of a big fish (Jonah 2:2) was there fire there? Job 14:13 prayed to go there. A place of inactivity, Ps6:5, Ecc.9:10, Isa.38:18,19. Hell will deliver up other dead, be destroyed itself ,Rev.20:13,14. You are going to throw fire into fire? Fire in the bible is a symbol of annihilation. Rom, 6:23- "the wages of sin is DEATH" not punishment. Yahusha was raised from the grave, Acts2:27,31,32, Ps,16:10. At His resurrection did they mention Him being burned? He refers to the dead as being sleep. WE can go on. There is no mistake what hell is. The mistake again lies with man and his wonderful ability to take things into his own hands and come up with whatever suits the purpose, be it good or bad, mostly the latter.
Umm I meant our understanding, the word has transformed considerably. Of course man has transformed the word, we created the word. The language is a human language, our language develops and changes as we use it. I do not understand your point. I was asking people's opinions, I gave you my opinion. This hostility is unwarranted.
I had no intentions of being hostile. I'm truly sorry if I came off that way. You asked for and got my opinion. The fact still remains, hell is, what it is, simply the grave. If you look the words sheol and hades up the definition is still, the grave. How else can you understand it? I have probably misunderstood the question. That is exactly why I just read the posts and keep my commits to myself. It does not seem as if exchange of info is important (not saying what I said is right) just the spirit of friendly debate. Again I apologize.
Okay sorry :s Umm the word sheol hasn't changed no, but our understanding of the concept of hell has changed. The word "hell" actually meant grave at one point as well, but that is not how people understand it now a days. The meaning of the word has changed to mean firey place where satan dwells. That is what I was trying to convey
At the risk of sounding hostile, why would anyone not be seeking the truth. How do christians even come up with that viewpoint? I can answer that question, but I would be accused of bashing. So until the next time, shalum.
I am not sure what you are asking me here...Christianity is about seeking the truth. Most religions are supposed to be about seeking the truth. If you are talking about the viewpoint on hell then I would say it is due to cultural influences, and most definitely pagan influences. As humans the best we can do is work towards understanding the truth, it becomes harder when even the language used is different than our current understanding of how language is used. It means working to understand context, and properly understand the message being conveyed. Christianity is a religion that encourages critical thinking, and understanding.
I would have to agree and disagree with that statement.
When I was a Christian, I did want to "know the truth." But that is a vague concept considering. Wht does it mean to "know the truth" and what does that really require? Many Christians don't do much searching past what their preacher teaches, and maybe buying a nice Bible Dictionary. Many Christians are actually quite ignorant of many ideas and concepts within their religion because of a tendency to be dogmatic. I'm not saying all Christians are this way, or even that the writers of scripture meant for it to be that way. But, I am saying from personal experience, but what I did and also observed, that many people only go so far in their research because they only have a minimal understanding of what it truly means to "seek the truth."
The "stronger" of a Christian that I became, the more I wanted to know, though. I got Concordances, Bible Dictionaries, Commentaries, Life Application Bibles with commentary, an Apologetics Bible, so on and so forth. My want to seek the truth was strong, and sometimes discouraged by one of the Youth Pastors above me who thought I wasn't "ready." They always believed I was weaker than I was. I actually stopped being a Christian for entirely different reasons. But, I digress.
I think that true critical thinking is often discouraged within Christianity, because often when people start to believe things that are against the norm, they are judged, told their thoughts are not true but of the Devil, so on and so forth, and to just "listen to Pastor." Free thinking and critical thinking are thwarted because of one's own personal fears, and because of discouragement from surrounding practitioners.
Again I'm not saying it's always this way. But it is often this way.
Oh, and much of the current movements are about guilt trips, spiritual experiences, emotional highs, The Prophetic, etc. etc., and little of them encourage or require much research into the truth because of the serious value placed on personal, subjective experiences, that can rarely be trusted but often are.Umm I understand that this is your personal experience, but it is not what Christianity dictates. It may be what some Christian believers do, and I know many Christians who settle and do not really seek the truth. Just like I know many atheists, and librarians who settle with the knowledge they have and do not seek the truth.
It is just how humans are. However, you cannot judge a faith system based off of a small number of its believers. To judge a faith system properly you must judge its scriptures.
Christian Scripture encourage critical thinking, and understanding. Actually most faiths encourage critical thinking and reasoning. The reasons people don't actually live that way is because its hard. It is really hard, the more you know the more questions you have. The more you read, the more books are recommended.
People are often too lazy to do the research, or too scared. When people have real faith in their religion then they are not afraid to confront any doubts they have and really do their homework.
Unfortunately we live in a lazy and cowardly society, and that is not the fault of religion so much as it is the fault of every person within the society.Why it is always the "its really hard" argument?
It really is not that difficult.
The simple fact of why it appears so is religion and faith cannot coexist -they are extreme opposites. It can only be either or. Abide by religion and face the consequence of it. Abide by faith and face the consequence of it.
James.Understanding is really hard. So is faith. It is a simple concept, but a very difficult lifestyle.
I agree that you can either live by religious guidelines or live by faith and that they are very different. I would argue that living religiously is much easier than living by faith. But either way they are both hard.
Hardest of all is having faith while having questions. Answering those questions, but not wavering in faith. Simple concept. Hard reality.I disagree. Every human was genetically programed to fully understand everything they need to regarding heaven-earth {ie Adam}.
Religion makes it hard so people cannot break out of the "mind control" or Adamic Effect. Faith relieves all burdens. It is quite possibly the easiest thing humans could ever do. Know why? Because the very power source -core of their being is faith. Their entire genetic system is build on it and from it. Every fiber of tissue, liquidity of tears was formed, fashioned, sustained and empowered by faith.
Anything outside of that is hard, is difficult. It is as though humans have been trying to change their DNA for centuries because their brains took over. now that is painful, that is a very hard thing to do. They have essentially been fighting against the grain, trying to paddle upstream when they never had to.
Every answer exists in them, if humans would just allow themselves to be illuminated. Simple.
Let me give you an example. So you are a new believer, you have faith in Jesus. You are learning about the scriptures. Suddenly you realize you need to understand the culture of the time. Oh wait you also need to understand the context of each book, and the situation of the author. Oh and of course the way language was used. There are little issues such as words like "standing" when you find standing in the Bible it can mean standing, and in some cases "to appear". It depends on how the word was translated. That is where the new believer is confronted by the different Bible versions, they are all the same yet there are subtle word differences. Speaking of differences the new believer has the different denominations to wrap their mind around. Why are there different denominations? Which one is the right one? Is there a right one? How about pastors and priests? How do you know who you can trust? Where does this Pope play into the picture?
The important part is learning about Jesus. That is also the easy part. The hard part is maintaining that trust in Jesus while honestly exploring the faith system. The questions don't end, there will always be new questions. The trick is to sort through your questions little by little while keeping eyes on Jesus the whole time.
Not easy.Yes the concept is very simple. That initial letting go is not. We are in a society that teaches us that we are our own God. That is a hard ideal to drop. We are a society that crushes kids critical thinking skills before the begin to develop. It is really easy for a believer to say faith is easy, but I wonder how long you have been a believer for. It is not initially easy. It is a struggle with yourself. It is also a struggle to understand if you are the type of person who wants understanding. We were talking about faith discouraging critical thought. I do not think it does or should, since that is exactly against what is said in Isaiah. God wants us to try and understand our world, but has also made it clear we will never understand/or know everything.
I didn't say it's what Christianity dictates. I am merely agreeing and disagreeing with you, because though it appears that scripture says differently, what practitioners do is often quite opposite, and that's all that people will really see. I remember that my first youth Pastor told me that sometimes we are the only Jesus that some people will see. I don't remember who he was quoting, but I think it's a good point. You can say all day that it shouldn't affect how one regards the scriptures, but human interaction is all we actually have and often, especially in this country, that interaction is unpleasant.
Depends which country you are talking about :p I live in what seems to be a friendlier one. (Canada, we are all friendly eh) I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. However the misunderstanding is as much on the believers who created the problem as it is on the people experiencing the behavior of the believers. I mean I could judge all African Canadians based on a few really rude people I met in highschool. But that wouldn't be fair right? I would be in the wrong for making a generalization. I could judge all atheists based off of communist countries that say atheism or prison. Again that would be unfair of me, not all atheists are communists :p So as much as it makes sense that people make this judgement, I would hope that they would make the distictions between different people and different groups.
Unfortunately it is very common that people of a religious affiliation are all lumped together, and often lumped into a category defined by the fundamentalists of the religion. All I am saying is that religion should be treated no differently than any other difference.And you are correct. But America is full of backward-thinking people, religious or not.
You are Canadien, not you are?
You're right, of course, but the truth is that people will build their perceptions (or rebuild in some cases) based on personal relationships they have people from a particular group. My father lived in the country and held many rural views about people who lived in big cities, especially those who utilized public assistance. I lived in New York City (I did it me!) and saw how much work it takes to not have a job. Yeah, there were a few lazy people, but the majority of people I met wanted to work and feel useful. Perceptions are often based on personal relationships.
BTW, I'm not making fun of you for being Canadian. Before I lived in NYC I lived in a small town in northern New Hampshire, a couple of hours from the border (we got French language CBC on the television) and many people had names like Tremblay, LaFrance and Crotteau. "I did it me!" was a sort of in-joke expression I heard often.That is exactly what I am saying! People need to realize that a perception of a group, is not the truth. A perception is subjective, not objective. Trying to state facts about a group based off of ones perceptions of certain members of groups is intellectually dishonest. That was all I was saying. No worries about the jokes I was poking fun at peoples understanding of Canadians myself :p I don't really say eh. Eh
Exactly haha :p That is what I was saying. (For some reason I could not respond to the correct post so I responded to this one)
Make your life easier by switching to chronological view on the top right side of the page!
I had to! The downside is sometimes you don't know what previous comments were being replied to.
I would suggest reading a book by Randy Alcorn called In Light of Eternity, where he discusses heaven and hell in depth.
That said, Hell is eternal separation from God. The only time the bible actually refers to fire, in regards to hell, is when it says that Satan will be cast into a lake of fire where there will be much moaning and gnashing of teeth. Also, Hell isn't going to be a giant social event; it's not only total separation from God, but from everyone....interrupting for a moment.....hey Cags!...good to see ya back!
Yeah, pretty much. At least that's what I've seen. I mean, right before Jesus died he said 'my god, why have you forsaken me?'. He didn't say anything about burning. And I've looked - I don't see any evidence about Hell being a fiery pit, with the exception of references to the end times and Satan - but I'm not a bible scholar, so I reserve the right to be wrong.
Hell is what you think, while your here on earth
Interesting thought.
However, from what I understand is that at that particular time "hell" was associated with "grave".
Which would make sense depending on how one views it. The preached method makes the claim that "hell" is a physical or metaphysical dimension outside time and space, which people will be kept for their unrepented sins.
The claim is that G/god is not of this reality/dimension and exists where nothing can exist as we know things to be. He will pass judgment upon each and every person.
My view of the above is what is most commonly seen and discussed. However, I find it foolish. I agree with "hell" being the metaphorical description for "grave", because it would be "hell" to not live life and the only time you don't get to live life is when you're in a grave.To speculate what hell is, concerning the spirit world, is purely unknown to each one of us.
We do know what hell is until we have arrived to that destination. For each one of us at worst, hell could only be an experience of horror or extreme suffering here on earth and can only speculate what it might like in the afterlife through our minds.
We are what we think, if I think everyone is God, that work for me because the Godlike thought materializing into a real experience by treating everyone with the same respect as I wish to be treated as a spiritual being first. If a person want to imagine hell, is an elusive action that can only leads them to more suffering in the mind or further extremes to their bodies here on earth. It makes me happy to be detach from the concept of hell for wellness sake, it just a hot fun topic to play with some times.
I don't fear death, I just don't want to be there, when it happens (Woody Allen)Spirit world? Mysticism is intellectual dishonesty. So, you're showing you're dishonest.
Honesty is very important, why would I break that rule, and for what reason?. Imagination does not breed insanity, it's a source of our Consciousness and it's a mysterious Power which Consciousness can unfold the power of Mind through imagination, concentration, meditation, contemplation and visualization. I don't claim to know something that I don't know, like much of religious people do. I know what know and know what I don't know, show me how I'm claiming something that you can point out to me , where I'm acting dishonest?
I agree to some degree, mystical imagination, can be dangerous to man’s mental balance. Yet in control of your thinking with honesty, Mysticism has also been the a Way of the Past, and the Wave of the FutureUm, Cagsil? Castlepaloma is not a believer. Why are you going after him?
Only a non believer in the sense of personal gods or one group as the only way to God.
I think everyone is God and everything is God,
Cagsil thinks or believes (don't know which one) God dose not Exist
AND claims, he is not an Atheist, go figure that one out
Not in a good way. I think everyone (in hell) will have their own personal hell, depending on what they did on earth. The Bible teaches that the saved as well as the unsaved will one day have to give an account for their deeds.
The Apostle Peter, in his great sermon in the house of Cornelius, said “that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead” (Acts 10:42). Later, in his First Epistle, Peter wrote that the saints “shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick (the living) and the dead” (1 Peter 4:5). Those who were dead, those who have died since or will have died, and the living must give account to Jesus Christ who is ready to judge all men.
The Five Separate Future Judgments
Not all men will be judged at the same time and place. There are five future judgments.
1. The Judgment Seat of Christ. The first of these will be the judgment of the believer’s works, called “The Judgment Seat of Christ.” It is this judgment to which we shall give consideration in this chapter. But first, we shall outline the four future judgments that will follow the judgment of the believer’s works.
2. The Judgment of Regathered Israel. In Daniel 12:1 this judgment is called “The Time of Jacob’s Trouble.” It will be the punishment of the Jews for their disobedience to God and their rejection of Jesus Christ. During the Tribulation Period and after the close of the present Age of Grace, Israel will pay for her sins, being afflicted with unprecedented misery and woe.
3. The Judgment of the Living Nations. At the end of the Tribulation Period, after Israel has been judged, the nations of earth will be judged by Christ and His Church. This judgment will not be against individuals but against nations for their treatment of the Jewish people. “For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted my land” (Joel 3:1-2).
4. The Judgment of Fallen Angels. This is the final judgment against Satan and other fallen angels who will be judged with him. Immediately after the one thousand years of the Kingdom Age, Satan and his hosts will meet their doom. “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day” (Jude 6). At that time we shall see the final fulfillment of that great prophecy in Genesis 3:15.
5. The Judgment of the Unbelieving Dead. This is called the Great White Throne Judgment. After the casting of Satan into Hell, the wicked dead will be raised to receive the final sentence of condemnation (Revelation 20:12-15). No believer will be judged at that day as the final judgment is reserved for all who rejected the Lord Jesus Christ on earth.
Source: http://bible.org/seriespage/future-judgment-believer
First, congrats on your conversion. I am a Catholic Christian. We believe that Hell is a place. No matter what that place consists of, it means eternal separation from God. This life is just a blink of the eye compared to eternity.
Keep studying! You're on the right path.@ts hell is a concept developed much earlier by human beings...concept has evolved since then and has been part of human psychic ...concept was incorporated by oldest religions of world and young religions like christianity,islam continued with the concept...
Congratulations on your new found faith.
First off the views of the Church of hell are largely hyped up, fabricated, and blended with ideas from paganism or Dante's Inferno.
Remember that Jesus was Jewish, of that culture and the only existant scriptures were the Hebrew ones. He didn't essentially bring any new teaching, that had the Jews sought God couldn't have worked out for themselves by studying the scriptures. He spoke about those things they should have been living in and embracing already.
Anyway, the Christian views of hell started off as revealed by the OT, but overtime departed from the truth and got all warped. Thus if you want a correct definition, you should study the OT, read up up a couple Jewish encyclopaedias and Jewish commentaries.
I think it's a good principle to study Judaism as it is our parent religion and unfortunately the child Christianity went off like the prodigal son after a couple centuries.I believe hell is a real place. Anyone who can create a universe can most certainly create a hell. Hell was initially created for the devil and the rebellious angels. The evil that men started doing now made us a candidate for hell.
God sent his son to earth in an effort to get mankind away from the evil which is or will it send us to hell and what do we do? We torture and kill his son.
King James
Mark 9: 42
Here the Bible talks about hell being so horrific it would be better to pluck out ones own eye then to enter into hell whole.
John 8: 39-46
Jesus talks about following the devil rather than God.The bible is as much about the inside of man as it is about the outside, One reflects the other. Hell exists within in each of us and reflects upon our outer perceptions of the world in which we exist. Hell doesn't always wait for death. It is also a product of the influences that effect us, from before birth.
Jesus described hell as a place of fire and suffering, and since he was God, I'd just as soon believe him.
People often get caught up in "original understandings" of these words, but that tends to be a distraction. God cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18 & Titus 1:2), and Jesus was God (John 1:1,14) so Jesus cannot lie.
This pretty much settles the issue. Jesus taught that there is a very real place of eternal suffering called hell and that people go there, he couldn't lie about that being God, so this is the reality of the matter.I don't know if it is a place of burning, for example, but evidence suggests it is the torment of the soul from being completely separated from God. People who have had Near Death Experiences report that there is a feeling of complete desolation and are taunted by beings that there is no God. Sometimes they see demons in their full power because God is absent. When I had night terrors I felt so far away from God and it's the closet I've ever been to hell.
Jesus did not ask God why He had forsaken Him as He was being nailed to the cross. It was when He was near death and being separated from God that He terrified.Kess,
Yes, this I understand.
Also, that Y`shua wrestled with himself -his ego, mind, consciousness for continued control over the spirit. And given that anointing/power, he could have easily misused it: to manifest food, take over Israel as a literal king, protect his own life, if necessary, etc.
When that "unclean spirit/devil" -meaning the human spirit infected by ego- finally gave up, he was attended to fully, and completely in line with the Spirit thereafter. The conflict ended when the mind realized it could not defeat the spirit-Spirit.
I agree, all who pass from death to Life must endure this. Those who do not succeed/bear fruit of Life, are cut down {die}. Those who do succeed are given the right and full access as sons of Creator {transformed into the original image}.
James."Authorized" King James Version *mentions the word hell 54 times...
Isaiah 14:12
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
One can cherry any or all side sides as they want. Thats what make the bible is so contradicting
Why not believe that Satan exist? We believe in such things as guardian angels and wasn't Satan an angel?. We believe in Heaven and this where Satan came from. How can you explain all the horrible things that happen in today's world?. There is evil all around us and has been since the beginning of time. Believe it or not evil has to exist in order for good to exist. As far as he'll being an actual place, physical place I believe it exists in one form or another it might be Sheol (grave) or it could be a spiritual place that exists beyond our human understanding just like concept of heaven. I believe that only in death will we fully understand heaven and hell and where these places are. I do believe that when we die something happens and what that something is, is unique to each and everyone of us rather we go to heaven or hell.
UNIQUE
How many 10s of Billions of people like my love ones, are in HELL
Story from the bible of hell are remakes of hell in Hollywood and people buy into fear too often, like junk food.
Here are just a few, very few, scriptures that you can study on that will give you a little bit of insight to what hell is. I hope that this information is of some help to you. Being a new Christian in this day and age is difficult with all the temptations and theology that is being tossed around. As it is said in the Bible, "Seek first the kingdom of Heaven and all other things will be given to you." If you really want to know any answers then seek God and He will provide! Now that we have internet it is easier to get information and fast. Read these scriptures and then study on them. Maybe this will be of soe help to you.
John 3:36 "Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."
2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 In his justice he will pay back those who persecute you. And God will provide rest for you who are being persecuted and also for us when the Lord Jesus appears from heaven. He will come with his mighty angels, in flaming fire, bringing judgment on those who don’t know God and on those who refuse to obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with eternal destruction, forever separated from the Lord and from his glorious power. When he comes on that day, he will receive glory from his holy people—praise from all who believe. And this includes you, for you believed what we told you about him.
Jesus even warned the religious leaders of His day that they were in danger of hell.....
Matthew 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"
What does the Bible say about hell? To make a point, Jesus described this place as such a place of horror that it would be better to sever a member of our body that would lead us there, than to end up in that place of torments.
(Mark 9:43-48).
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched''
Another account of the torments of hell is found in Luke 16:19-26:
"There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."
The Greek word for hell in the New Testament, "hades" means the same as "sheol" in the Old Testament Hebrew. It is also spoken of as the grave, the pit, and the place of the dead. It is described as below the surface of the earth (Numbers 16:30, Psalm 55:15), beneath the depths of the sea, and is also spoken of as "the deep." It has gates and bars that hold its prisoners. The wicked go down into the region of hell where they are kept in torment until the day of the White Throne Judgment. Hell is a place of shame, remorse, consciousness, memory, and anguish.
Hell is described not only as a fiery place of torment, but also as a separation from God and His saints, a place where there is continual torment. Like said earlier, God gives us choice. Plain and simple. We can choose to follow God and uphold His commandments or we will be sent to Hell. It is a choice each and every one of us on this earth have to decide for ourselves. No one can get us to heaven, it is something we as an individual have to choose for ourselves.
Keep the faith and God Bless!People are going to believe hell is whatever they think it is. We can go on and on, folks saying words have changed and whatever and not come up with any one thing everyone will agree with. Can we agree as believers, you don't want to go there regardless if you think it will be a fiery existence or a fiery death?
The best thing about hell is the open door policy!
forgive me if I'm wrong about this - but once you're in hell, you can't return - its an eternal kind of thing, right?
Read Luke 16:19-26 is states; they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us
if you understand that you are either a genius or a witch - and anyway, I have never understood why what somebody wrote 2000 years ago should be "gospel" truth today!? never mind. I should just stay out of the religion forums!
She isn't a witch for sure, so I assume that leaves us with genius.
And you really think it would have lasted this long and predicted current world events if it wasn't valid?
Really? lol
What a conclusion considering all the odds.
Wanna play Texas Hold'em sometime?
According to christian dogma, when Jesus died, he went to hell to redeem souls.
I'm pretty sure [will check, not certain] the Holy Bible states Christ went to Hell to obtain the keys to death and Hell.
It also says in Matthew many souls left the graves and walked into the city, paraphrased somewhere directly after the crucifixion. [again, think it's Matthew]I don't know your view on after life. And at the risk of being presumptuous, if folks left their graves and walked around after the crucifixion, you are saying they came from heaven and that the righteous dead are there now. I know they left the grave and walked around the city, I believe it is in Matt. But give me the book, chapter, and verse where the righteous dead are in heaven now and not in hell (grave) sleeping where you just said they came from, until His return. And where the wicked are in this fiery place of torment now, waiting on the rest to join them so they can be resurrected for the second death. I know I'm asking a lot of you, because you may not even believe in that fiery place of torment. But I have read and appreciated some of the things you have written on hp in your debates and would like to hear your point of view on this matter.
Jachar...totally agree. I believe that we all have the darkness and the light inside of us, and that this is all really as much about the inside of man as it does the outside of a man (that is Man, male and female) In this context, the battle of Armageddon is internal. Jesus said God dwells inside of us, that our bodies are the true Temple. Whenever God speaks, It wasn't a big booking voice which everyone could hear. It is always a voice that only a chosen person hears. Most of us have learned to tune it out.
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