Dear Mr Edmondson

1. 59

   Mark Knowlesposted 12 years ago

   As a long time user that has created tens of thousand of dollars income for you, I wish to express my dis-satisfaction with the soon-to-be-implemented Amazon referral changes, and ask that I be given the choice rather than be forced to comply with a substantial change to our agreement.
   
   I sucked it up when you forced my to edit all my hubs. I sucked it up when you ruined my Adsense earnings by favoring your own opaque ad program. I sucked it up when you switched my niche accounts to subdomains and decimated their earnings. I sucked it up when you started unpublishing my hard work for various opaque rule infractions. But - I can't suck this one up so easily.
   
   I do not want you taking my sales data and passing on earnings made through my Amazon referrals.
   
   http://hubpages.com/faq/#amazon-signup
   
   This change also seem to be worded in a non-legal fashion - "Participation requirements are subject to change at any time." What!??? This cannot possibly be legal and - there is no way I would have signed up at HubPages in the first place if this was the original agreement.
   
   Please Mr Edmondson - do not change our agreement - not only does the ability to change the agreement on a whim as you did when "Panda" hit and changed the rules willy nilly with zero regard for your users appear to be not legal - it will cost me money.
   
   I will lose money in several ways.
   
   1. Because you refused to consolidate my niche accounts, I now have a number of small niche accounts that will probably not reach payout and I will  be forced to use the HPad program or wait months - maybe never - if you decide to exercise your alleged right to change the participation requirements at any time.
   
   2. I already reach 8-8.5% (mostly 8% since the disastrous switch to subdomains), but a proportion of my sales come from outside of Hupages - I will now lose up to 2.5% commission on these sales, because it was HP sales that pushed my tier earnings up.
   
   3. The only option to be paid is now through paypal - this will cost me another +/- 10% of my income on referrals I make through hubpages. As I live in France - paypal will only pay me out in Euros and I am forced to change money at their awful! exchange rate and not at the time of my choosing. There is no way I want to leave thousands of dollars sitting in my paypal account so I will be forced to transfer it immediately - at whatever exchange rate they enforce on the day.
   
   Currently I get a US$ cheque that I can deposit in an actual bank, and exchange when it suits me.
   
   Lissie just wrote a hub explaining why she is unhappy:
   
   http://lissie.hubpages.com/hub/What-To- … to-Wizzley
   
   Lissie is a long-time hubber like myself - and she is moving her hubs? This is insane! I don't know anything about the place she is moving them to, so I can't comment on that, but keeping the Amazon agreement with Amazon instead of HubPages is strong incentive.
   
   (And please - if you are a few hundred dollars type hubber and happy with risking your earnings for the extra percentage - that is awesome - but please don't pollute this thread with your opinion on how great it is that you are risking 3 months earnings for a higher percentage - it is great that you are happy - but - like Lissie - I make my living doing this and this is a substantial change to my agreement with HubPages and will substantially affect my earnings.)
   
   My HubPages accounts represent a substantial investment. I would not have made this investment if this had been part of the agreement in the first place. There is a reason I do not have a Squidoo account - and opaque earnings is it.
   
   Other, smaller users will suffer - I know several hubbers with money in their Amazon account that they will either lose or be forced to take as a gift certificate. I also know several hubbers who have multiple small niche accounts that will no longer reach payout. I know because I helped these people set them up when it made sense to have small niche accounts because you were not forced to run everything through HPads.
   
   All I would like is the option NOT to be forced into rolling my Amazon earnings into HPAds and keep the agreement you and I started out with.
   
   Thank you.

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2. 85

   Marisa Wrightposted 12 years ago

   I'm also disappointed with the changes,first to eBay and now to Amazon.  I don't make my living at this so the impact is not as great, but it's the principle I care about.
   
   When I joined HubPages, the reason I liked it so much was the transparency of it.  I came from Helium where you are paid by Helium, and you have no way of knowing whether they're being fair in what they pay or not.  I loved the fact that payment on HP was by third parties, so it was possible (if you could be bothered) to check you were being paid fairly. 
   
   Gradually, that transparency has been lost, and I think it's a great shame. 
   
   But I don't like your chances, Mark.  This forum (Report a Problem) used to mean what it said - Hubbers could report a problem or concern, and a HubPages team member would listen and respond.  That doesn't happen any more - they should change the name of the forum to "Have a Whinge but We're Not Listening".

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3. 94

   melbelposted 12 years ago

   I would like to see a consolidation, personally, even though I do not currently have multiple accounts. I have thought of creating an additional account for a particular niche, but the consolidation thing is what has prevented me from it. It is unfortunate because I have thus decided to, for now, write on those niches elsewhere where I can just use my own AdSense and Amazon account and not worry about consolidation.
   
   I do LOVE writing with HubPages and I would be willing to give a 40% cut on this particular niche if I were able to consolidate my HP accounts. I do think that writing on HP has its benefits over my own person blog... for me, anyway, as I'm one who does not want to muck around with hosting.

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4. 79

   Aficionadaposted 12 years ago

   I have wondered whether the all-or-nothing position in the new program comes from HP's side or from Amazon's.  I really can't see any benefit to either side from forcing all Hubbers to receive their HP Amazon earnings only through the HP program. It seems clear to me that HP stands to lose a lot more than it gains, as the more successful Hubbers continue moving more and more of their work elsewhere.
   
   I'm such a little fish that the change will hardly affect me at all, but I agree (strongly) with those Hubbers who want to keep their own Amazon accounts separate from the HP program.  It seems to me the right thing to do, but it also seems to me to make more sense from a business perspective - for HP's business too.
   
   If the insistence on this method comes from Amazon, I would like to see HP just chuck the whole plan.  In my opinion, it's not worth it.

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   1. 0

      EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      It all depends on how the earnings are allocated. I still can't get a handle on whether hubbers will receive commission on actual Amazon purchases (as we do now) or whether it will become a click-based model like the eBay one, or even a largely impressions-based one like HP ads. Perhaps we will get 60% of the share of clicks, but HubPages will trouser all the sales commissions. I sincerely hope not, but it could be the case.
      
      I definitely think people should be allowed to consolidate the earnings from their niche accounts. Nobody could have known at the time of setting up multiple niche accounts that HP would change its setup so radically.
      
      
      

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5. 0

   SirDentposted 12 years ago

   I imagine it was bound to happen  sooner or later.  Though I will not be affected personally with the switch, I can certainly see Mark's points and agree with him.  I think this is the first time I ever agreed with him on anything.
   
   Some people make a living writing on line and I believe the switch will hurt those writers.

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6. 81

   DonnaCSmithposted 12 years ago

   For those in states that were canceled by Amazon because of our State's sales tax laws if it goes through Hubpages will we benefit? Or will we still not be able to participate with Amazon?

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   1. 95

      wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      You will not need to be an amazon affiliate to participate.  This means that everyone will again be able to participate in the amazon plan regardless of where you live and whether or not amazon is accepting affiliates from your state.
      
      So yes, you will be back in the game.

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      1. 81

         DonnaCSmithposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Well, sorry, Mark, looks like it works for me:o) I am one of those small players.

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      2. 72

         thisisoliposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Actually since it is performance based it means you will lose all your income if you reside in california, they closed the loop hole.

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         1. 48

            wavegirl22posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            what loop hole?

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         2. 95

            wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            When did that happen?  And what loophole?  The last I heard about California they had agreed to put off the new law for one year in the hopes and expectation that federal laws would be passed.

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7. 96

   leahleflerposted 12 years ago

   It's not clear how it will work, but I HOPE that it will be set up so that:
   
   1) People who live in states where Amazon does not currently participate will be able to earn from a click based model. While not as good as earning by commission, it allows some earnings where there were none before.
   
   2) People who live in states where Amazon DOES participate will remain on the current commission pay system, but with a higher earnings rate since sales will start off at the top tier.
   
   I'd hate to see everyone switched over to a click-based pay system, because it will decimate my earnings from amazon (amazon still participates with NY state).

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8. 61

   Cassie Smithposted 12 years ago

   Since Hubpages is in San Francisco, isn't there a possibility that everyone will lose their Amazon earnings if they decide to close off California again since it's funneled through Hubpages.  California repealed its tax law concerning sites like Amazon but what's to say they don't try to enact it again this year or next?

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9. 65

   Silver Roseposted 12 years ago

   Have I mis-read the following from the FAQ? Because I take it to mean that you can keep your own Amazon ID. It's only if you opt into the HPAmazon that you can't switch back?
   
   Does anyone else read this the same way?
   
   

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   1. 94

      DeborahNeyensposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      That's how I read it.

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   2. 70

      sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      Thats is what it says. Well, you get to "keep" it , it is yours. But once HP makes you their sub-aff they wont be allowing anyone to switch back on the hubpages platform (if you opt in early) and it seems to suggest that probably everyone will be forced into the model eventually.
      
      the whole thing sucks

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10. 96

    leahleflerposted 12 years ago

    It is only optional through early 2012 - then it will be manadatory to participate in the HPAmazon. That's why the statement is included:
    
    "Your personal Amazon Associates ID will continue to work through 2011 and early 2012."
    
    After mid 2012, it will no longer be optional.

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    1. 65

       Silver Roseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Well at the top of the FAQ they write
       
       
       
       "Eventually" and "may" are very vague terms - it reads to me that it's optional for the forseeable future.
       
       Would be nice if someone from HP staff would come on and clarify

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       1. 96

          leahleflerposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I agree - though as a few others have suggested, the wrinkles in the deal may not be ironed out yet, so they may be silent until they have a more definitive system set up.

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11. 0

    andycoolposted 12 years ago

    Transparency @ HubPages is equivalent to Fire @ Water! But where is Mr. Edmondson? Didn't even care to post a reply yet!

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12. STAFF

    Paul Edmondsonposted 12 years ago

    We've heard feedback and have temporarily delayed making changes to how Amazon is getting paid as we work through some revisions with Amazon directly.  HubPages works very closely with our monetization partners and strives to get the best earning opportunity for Hubbers to make HubPages the most rewarding place to publish.
    
    Thanks again for the feedback and I'll keep you posted as we work through some of the reopened issues.

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    1. 70

       sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Does that mean "how amazon earnings will be paid to associates who use our sub-aff id's?"
       
       So the "revisions" still arent leaning towards allowing current associates to retain their direct relationship with Amazon? .. thats done with?

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13. 63

    Greek Oneposted 12 years ago

    While you Amazon on the phone, can you please inquire as to the delivery date of the Power Ranger action figure I ordered last week?

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14. STAFF

    Paul Edmondsonposted 12 years ago

    As far as we know, CA is open to Amazon again and Amazon has expressed strong commitment to keeping it open.
    
    I suspect they will alter the way they pay affiliates if they run into future issues to be more like AdSense and eBay - pay per click - since paying for advertising fees this way is different than being an affiliate.
    
    If you're curious, that's why eBay earnings weren't impacted with this law.

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    1. 95

       wildernessposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I don't know that it will really matter much in the near future.  It looks to me like the handwriting is on the wall - in the near future the federal govt. will do something to give their state brothers-in-crime another path into our pocketbooks - sales tax on internet sales.
       
       Nor will it be a back-door approach like the nexus laws.  Rather it will some sweeping declaration that all interstate sales must have sales tax collected by the vendor and disbursed to the states.  The cost to business will be astronomical (passed to the consumer) but the states want more money and this is an easy way to do it.

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       1. 90

          Pcunixposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I don't think so.  The ideas that have been proposed for this could actually make things easier for business by standardizing reporting. 
          
          The objection has been that it is unfair for business to have to interpret 50 different laws that vary as to what is taxable, use different forms for reporting and so on.   If the rules and the method are standard across all States, there is no extra burden on business - in fact, it could even be easier for those with multi-state requirements now.

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          1. 70

             sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             "There are two active Federal bills working their way through the Senate and House, with bi-partisan sponsors and growing support:
             
             Senate: Marketplace Fairness Act [Durbin (D-IL), Enzi (R-WY), and Alexander (R-TN)]
             House: Marketplace Equity Act [Womack (R-AR) and Speier (D-CA)]
             
             Both bills contain a new approach to sales tax reform, a ‘no-nexus’ concept that simply allows states to require out-of-state retailers to collect their sales taxes. The ‘no-nexus’ approach lets states keep their current sales tax policies in place, a critical requirement in getting bi-partisan support, and necessary to ensure passage.  The ‘no-nexus’ approach is constitutional if approved by Congress. Most importantly, to our industry, since all retailers (online and offline) would be required collect sales tax  on all purchases, online retailers will be able to reinstate their affiliate programs. These bills have support from influential allies and former opponents such as the National Retail Federation (NRF), Retail Industry Leaders Association (RILA), Walmart and Amazon"
             
             http://performancemarketingassociation. … -nexus-tax

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    2. 87

       IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       So when that happens, HPAmazon will become pay-per-click too?

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       1. 70

          sunforgedposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          to be accurate, ebay is not pay per click. QCP formula is more complicated than that (your EPC is variable and changes daily). Still beats the nexus law but for those who dont have ePn, dont expect it to be in any way like adsense.
          
          The loophole that Oli mentioned, if I remember right, is that California specifically rephrased their nexus law to include a click based scheme for rewarding affiliates for performance. But, thats just from memory, I cant find any reference to that change at the usual locations.
          
          Probably a good idea for US affiliates to follow and support the efforts of:
          
          http://performancemarketingassociation. … -nexus-tax

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15. 60

    Thrillerposted 12 years ago

    I have several issues with HubPages currently.
    
    1. Now I can't track the earnings performance of my individual hubs like I could with Adsense. The Hubpages ad program is opaque at best.
    
    2. The support is terrible. My hubs were unpublished even when they didn't violate any ToS and even after repeated emails all i got was a generic reply with no instance of any specific violation.
    
    3. PayPal SUCKS. As stated earlier they provide terrible exchange rates and can't be trusted with money (how ironic!).
    
    4. HubPages has become paranoid post-panda. They keep changing their ToS all too frequently and now there are just too many restrictions when publishing a Hub.
    
    I guess I should write my first Wizzley page after all!

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