Can't we all just get along?
What are the real problems of the world?
I would say a lack of a common/universal sense of destiny.
Atheists do not even have a destiny. They just play it by ear.
Theists believe in going home to God/Spirit. To go Home would be a great goal for mankind… and bringing heaven to earth would be a great way to live.
So, what about the afterlife?
Don't theists concern themselves with this eventuality, while atheists do not?
Atheists do not believe in using their imaginations and are not open to unrealizable possibilities, while theists are open. But this openness is also a danger because what if what they imagine, can never be?
...such as the reward of 72 virgins or a perfect Utopia?Of course atheists have a destiny; the same destiny theists have. To return to the (figurative) dust they came from.
Rebellion. One word answer to your opening question, the rest are consequential occurrences.
Humanity is in rebellion against the Creator's will to recognize and accept His LOVE. His way, not everyones way of love. It's not just " He loved the world that gave His Son as redemption price to get back into the original creation position., : to be " holy " as God is holy, to be righteous as God is righteous...
You might recall His words while in human body : If anyone loves me he will keep my word..." Another one " Streams of living water will flow from deep within the person who believes in me- that what Scripture says..." A failure to live His will and His word so convincingly , that whoever sees " believer" living His will would se the Gospel in manifestation; Can you see such a living? We rather talk and talk and compare and debate, instead to prove our Love for Him. ( John 14:23 )
As far as afterlife, the deal is sealed : Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life... This is absolute...Thanks for bringing us back on track, Michael.
Can you explain the nature of this rebellion and provide examples?
How does rebellion reveal itself. Exactly?
Why would anyone rebel against love?
How do you, Michael Melic, recognize God's love?
Have you ever rebelled against it?
You believe in eternal life… as opposed to un-eternal life.
What is the nature of that life?
I am interested in YOUR views.My views Kathryn won't matter, actually they do not exist.
All I know comes from God's revealed will for " us " to receive or reject.
Rebellion started when God said guys don't do this, and they did; now when ever His " guys don't do this " is disregard- rebellion continues.
God's LOVE gave what humanity needed when not known its own need - and as that GIFT of LOVE- life eternal is rejected,signifies rebellion....
Michael MILEC recognizes God's love in every breath of life, every need meat, every happy moment , in His plans for me now and for all eternity not letting me to come back as frog or donkey , rather His love keeps me to believe His TRUTH.
Have I ever rebelled against it?- You mean God's love? Give me reason why should i do that and I will try to remember if I ever did.
Believing in eternal life is sealed fact by the resurrection of Eternal God who came into time and died , then went to live forever, since LIFE He gives to those who believe never ends.
" Un-eternal life" is a new term to me, but if you read the Book of Revelation you will find ample information even to the " what is nature of ""that"" life. What ' that' stands for ? Forgive please my ignorance .
Finally, next was written almost 2000 years ago and explaines better than any my words " ... those who live by corrupt nature have the corrupt nature's attitude. But those who live by the spiritual nature have the spiritual nature's attitude. The corrupt nature's attitude leads to death. But the spiritual nature's attitude leads to life and peace. This is so because the corrupt nature has a hostile attitude toward God. It refuses to place itself under the authority of God's standard, because it can't ( rebellious ?). Those who are under the control of corrupt nature can't please God.
But if God's Spirit lives in you, you are under the control of your spiritual nature, not your corrupt nature. Whoever doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to him. However, if Christ lives in you, your bodies are dead because of sin,but your spirits are alive because of God's approval.Your views do not matter and do not exist? Are you not allowed to have your own thoughts for some reason?
Thankfully, I'm allowed to have my own thoughts.
THANK GOODNESS!!! (If going to heaven means not having my own thoughts, I would rather not go.)When it comes to truth, we want our thoughts to line up with His. We want the "mind of Christ". We want wisdom from above, which is perfect. "But the wisdom from above is first of all pure. It is also peace loving, gentle at all times, and willing to yield to others. It is full of mercy and good deeds. It shows no favoritism and is always sincere." (James 3:17)
The concern the brethren are having is all this added stuff - reincarnation, Eastern philosophies and religion, and so on. Our hearts must belong to the Lord alone, and we do well to feed only on that which comes from the Lord himself through the Spirit and the Word. Let's not partake of the things of the world, of other religions, or even of our own imaginations. There's plenty of room for individuality and your own thinking in all ways unrelated to truth/falsehood and right/wrong. But again, when it comes to Truth, let's align ourselves with the Word and the Spirit, forsaking all else.Troubles me to being quoted what I didn't say " I am not allowed to have my own thoughts !?" Out of all I've said was mainly related to a number of question you've asked me to which " my own views " wouldn't matter as do no not matter anyone else's, since the God has provided "views" already. Man is only trying to stretch his own imagination if somehow would outsmart what is written and be right in his own eyes. I have ceased to play hat type of religious game since its nonproductive and besides I just do not have time no desire to do that. A child of God would rather stay the closes possible to the Father's vocabulary, as you could se above quote, as we are dealing with the things of eternal value, " God has revealed these things to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of man except the spirit of the man that is in him? In the same way, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.Now we have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who comes from God, so that we may understand what has been freely given to us by God. We also speak these things, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people.But the unbeliever does not welcome welcome what comes from God's Spirit, explaining spiritual things to spiritual people. But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit, because it is foolishness to him; he is not able to understand it since it is evaluated spiritually. The spiritual person, however , can evaluate everything, yet he himself cannot be evaluated by anyone. Foe who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct Him.? But we have the mind of Christ.' this might be helpful, if... No calling names, no finger pointing, nor judging. Jus trying to indicate wherefrom I am coming.
Thankfully, in my own affairs " I am allowed to have my own thoughts "- you have asked me about my own views earlier concerning things determined already... BTW going to heaven or not going to heaven is under other criteria but having " my own thoughts."
How in the world the " others" would come to the Truth unless those who are in it would denied the same by their actions /reaction/determination or vocabulary.Answers found:
1. Can you explain the nature of this rebellion and provide examples?
"Rebellion started when God said, Guys, don't do this, and they did;"
2. How does rebellion reveal itself. Exactly?
"...now whenever His "guys, don't do this " is disregarded,
rebellion continues.
3. Why would anyone rebel against love?
This is so because the corrupt nature has a hostile attitude toward God. It refuses to place itself under the authority of God's standard, because it can't ( rebellious ?). Those who are under the control of corrupt nature can't please God.
4. How do you, Michael Melic, recognize God's love?
"Michael MILEC recognizes God's love
in every breath of life,
every need met,
every happy moment,
in His plans for me now
and for all eternity."
5. Have you ever rebelled against it?
Give me reason why should I do that
and I will try to remember if I ever did. (No.)
6. You believe in eternal life. What is the nature of that life?
"... the spiritual nature's attitude leads to life and peace."Candidly, my explanation isn't necessary, since all is written from the very opening chapters of the Book called the Bible.
2-The creator says, just this one you do not touch, and a Serpent said, do touch it - that how it started and goes on ...
3- That isn't in my capacity to know 'why would anyone rebel agains love.' ( I am accountable for my "why's" only so are the all others...
4- please use my name correctly that why I printed in capital "MILEC''; It is the Cross that reveales the love of God toward me , he wanted me to choose the life in his love-offering, as we read "in Him we live and have our being..."
5 - ?!
6- We both are busier than going in a circle ...
Thank you Kathryn L Hill, and have a blessed giving thanks day.Yes, but what is the significance of rebellion?
What is it?
Do people rebel against God?
How? as far as what you OBSERVE around you?
For instance:
Is arrogance rebellion?
Is lack of self-mastery rebellion?
Is a child hitting another child because he has not been taught not to, rebellion?
Is not going to church rebellion?
Is not being inspired by the Bible rebellion
Is not wanting to be influenced by an unseen and unknown God rebellion?
Curious.None of these things are rebellion.
None.
Rebellion is not the problem.
Not knowing how to tune into God is the problem.
No one can be blamed for not tuning into God in a society which rejects the science behind all religion. What is the science?
For instance, in India there are temples one can wander into at any time of day and be quiet, focus on the Spirit within and without and meditate deeply upon that spirit. Here the churches are pretty much locked up tight until Sunday. Here, the focus is on busy activity and fund raising. Preschool operations have taken over many churches just to afford their own upkeep.
We are a very outer-based society. Appearances are very important. Money and status is very important. Being involved on the physical plane in so many endless ways is very important.
What if we could live at our lives in a way which brings forth true and everlasting peace?
What is more important than peace of mind?
Nothing. Nothing at all.
What brings forth peace of mind?
Having a clean conscience and acting according to what is morally and spiritually right.
There many avenues to follow in order to achieve this clean conscience: The laws of the Ten Commandments, the precepts of Buddha and the Eight Fold Path, or contemplating the Bhagavad Gita. Or searching in your heart according to the love you feel there...
Christians proclaim that Jesus is the only way... but Jesus represents the light of our souls… every single one of us, no matter what religion we are following.
According To My Understanding.My only reply to the above your " Understanding " would be possible in person to person conversation.
We are not on the same page and that is okay. See? We can along despite our differences in understanding the Bible.
Each to their own, I say. I let you have your own way of understanding. That is a good example I set.
Let me begin with the word’s origin : Hebrew “ m /e/ ri “= rebellion, perverseness: “marah”= to be rebellious against, be disobedient , be refractory; resist; to despise; to quarrel, dispute; to offend ( mentioned in Num.20:24; Neh.9:26). Literally, it means to be (or make) bitter or unpleasant, to resist, be rebellious- occurrences refer to rebellion agains man as well as agains God. In the human rebellions it is a technical term for political resistance , in international context it refers to disloyalty and disunity against nations. Concerning God, the disposition of mankind is such that he always " breaks with” God = for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,” (Rom 3:23).
Well it is now self-explanatory if some people do or do not rebel against God.
My observation ‘“ how?” would be as valid as your and anybody else’s without giving an example and being labeled “ judgmental.”
Please Kathryn, would that be necessary to respond listed instances one by one? Not by me, I would rather not expose myself to unnecessary scrutiny leaving to everyone to create either a personal opinion , or prayerfully meditate to get better revelation from the Holy Spirit.1. arrogance
2. lack of self-mastery
3. a child hitting another child because he has not been taught not to,
4. not going to church
5. not being inspired by the Bible
6. not wanting to be influenced by an unseen and unknown God
I list these because I do not think they are rebellion. My point is no one rebells for the sake of rebellion itself.
1. In the case of arrogance, which I know a lot about, it is because one gets into a bad mental habit.
Especially if one is used to being a know-it-all and others let one either get away with it or actually require it, say for one's job or at home in charge of one's family.
2. In the case of a lack of self mastery, one might become a slave to bad habits because they do not see a reason to change… etc.
3. A child hitting another child is just because he was reacting instinctually…
4. Not going to church is not rebellion; it is simply not enjoying it for whatever reason…
5. Not being inspired by the Bible is because the Bible is full of so many confusing ideas, words, precepts… and some go against modern thought!
6. If we cannot see, feel or touch God then how can we, who are so used to using our five senses in determining reality, justify declaring there is such a thing as "God?"
EDIT: The OT of The Bible is full of examples of rebellion. Perhaps you could provide one of them. (I stay away from the OT because it is so confusing and unbelievable. I am actually afraid of reading it. I find it creepy to read. If you are not creeped out by the OT perhaps you can share it with us as you apply it to life.)
Also: if we do not know what the serpent said not to touch and why,
how can we
UNDERSTAND ANYTHING?
How can we find and stay focused on God's love?
This is rather interesting!
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c … tation.htm
Do you not realise we a at war with Islam???....They want us to convert or they will kill us.They are already holding sharia courts that do many things like marry a 9yr old child to a 40yr old man,this is happening all across our country.They are breeding at a massive rate the most popular name for a boy this year is Mohammed,this i managed by their doctors who give them free IVF so they can have multiple births,in their eyes that is what a woman is for,cooking,cleaning and giving birth to the next generation jihad,they are actually 10 years a head,scarey hey,and OUR country is on a terror alert because government let these people who want to kill us into the country.They are very dangerous people and people need to wake up.Its not racist when your having to worry if your gonna get blown up before you go out,but its the truth,its a very scary time especially when you know so much about what is actually going on.
An eye- opener comment in the midst of debate " can't we all just get along ?' question. Who are "we all'- is bravely mention in the above includes-'they are very dangerous people.' How can anyone "get along' with " rebellious'' = refractory - resistant to authority of the Creator's principles. The picture is clear : an innocent , minding own business person walking on the street, get chop-up head for no reason by the someone never met before or seen or talk to ? Are we who believe in a almighty God, the Creator of the universe more guilty because we believe and know He is also a Just God and as it is know "He is a consuming fire ".... -
Dear belintte,
I have edited your post to make it more clear for us. Thank you for the alert. If we are at war we are at war. We will fight them with the knowledge of the truth. They are dangerous because they are so indoctrinated with LIES.
"Do you not realise we at war with Islam? This is what is happening all across our country:
1.) They want us to convert or they will kill us.
They are already holding Sharia courts that do many things like marry a 9 year old child to a 40 year old man.
Sharia: "Islamic canonical law based on the teachings of the Koran and the traditions of the Prophet (Hadith and Sunna), prescribing both religious and secular duties and sometimes retributive penalties for lawbreaking. It has generally been supplemented by legislation adapted to the conditions of the day, though the manner in which it should be applied in modern states is a subject of dispute between Islamic fundamentalists and modernists."
2.) They are breeding at a massive rate. The most popular name for a boy this year is Mohammed. Their doctors give them free IVF, so they can have multiple births. In their eyes, a woman is for cooking, cleaning and giving birth to the next generation jihad.
(In vitro fertilization: " The process involves monitoring and stimulating a woman's ovulatory process, removing ovum or ova (egg or eggs) from the woman's ovaries and letting sperm fertilise them in a fluid medium in a laboratory. The fertilised egg (zygote) is cultured for 2–6 days in a growth medium and is then implanted in the same or another woman's uterus, with the intention of establishing a successful pregnancy." W)
3.) They are actually 10 years ahead of schedule.
4.) OUR country is on a terror alert because our government lets these people, who want to kill us, into the country. They are very dangerous people and we need to wake up.
5.) Its not racist when you are having to worry if your gonna get blown up before you go out, but its the truth. Its a very scary time, especially when you know so much about what is actually going on."
PS I see you are from London. Did you mean Britain when you say OUR country?I meant the UK but the whole world is feeling the rise of Islam and it should not be ignored,if so be it at your peril!
Only the truth of reality will constrain and oppose this force of satanic delusion which is issuing forth in the name of religion!
You think a lack of a universal sense of destiny is one of the world's biggest problems?
I would say something like the complete disregard for the health of our planet and its other inhabitants, the 2 billion children living in poverty, the fact that women are still treated like second-class citizens in several countries, the diseases running rampant and killing people in areas with terrible health care... I could go on, but you probably get what I'm saying.
How do you think a universal sense of destiny would help to solve those problems?What if the goal was simply to unite our consciousness with the consciousness of God? Practicing this consciousness while here would solve all those problems. All would help one another with what really matters in life. There would be no greed or selfishness. After all, what is the consciousness and spirit of God?
Love!
But, as it is... we are not on the same page, therefore, sadly, we will never get along. So the answer is
No.being on the same book is good enough, you think?
...what is the book like?
If it has pages of many positive outcomes, whether here, there, everywhere or anywhere, such as
wisdom, empathy, respect for self and others, sincerity, honor, helpfulness, generosity, sacrificing for a higher good… and more…it would be good enough.
I'll take it.I've got (developed) a sensation after years of inner meditation ~ which is like this: Every living being in subject to an invisible circle of restriction ~ almost like a 'piece of magnet' which is surrounded by (in every direction) a magnetic circle of opposite polarity.
Everyone is subject to it. Some may rebel against it. Some do. We all think of doing so, at-least once in our life.
But we can not surpass this boundary ~ no matter what high office or position we may 'achieve' in the world of humans. I hope you would agree. The only way to surpass it is to love the cause of this boundary.… to love the magnetic force? from reading the bible, a word stood out: order. There is something good about order. Perhaps the force brings forth a certain ordering. Or what?
No no no. To love the concept behind the 'magnetic belt'.
I would use the word, force: to love the force behind the magnetic belt.
do you mean the force… or the concept?- yes, it all seems to be a gift.. to enjoy while we are here. Then we leave it all. What do we go to, after death… do we feel the effects of gravity at that point? or will we be beyond them? I suspect the letter.
It is my conviction that we exist even after physical death. The 'magnetic belt' functions as long as we are 'humans'. Once outside the body of a human ~ we enter the direct rule and influence of that what we call 'God'.
We don't interact with the program but the programmer, there.So we can work with the programer here! Wouldn't that be really cool?
...then there's the question of
How?
To leave behind the attractions, distractions and sensations of the material world in favor of…?
- and Gs, what are the "problems of the world?"
(since you are the one who prompted this discussion.)The experiences of the other side (the place where God resides) are paradigm shifting. If I compare human life with living as disabled, on a wheelchair, for 40 years ~ then being near God would be like traveling the world in a helicopter.
Very few people make their way to God.repeating:
The problems of the world are…
based on the need to survive here... and not really having a sure fire way. Adam and eve had it made and then they blew it! Then they died.
What if they hadn't blown it?
What is our common destiny?
If we know what it is, could mankind reestablish Eden…?The only issue that we have, collectively ~ is this: We forget the resolutions that we had taken inside the tunnel, as soon as we find ourselves inside a human body.
Taking a short break. Will return in 40 minutes :-)
It is late here, in LA. Thank you so much for sharing your well earned insights. You seem very grounded in your spirituality. Very practical and wise. Yet, you seem young. I hope you are in touch with your resolutions so that you can reach God.
I am constantly tempted away from my resolutions as well, now that you have explained it like that.. I was teetering to the point of falling off the edge, recently. I know what falling is... I managed to keep one foot on the top and am now pulling the rest of me back… oh my gosh, life is alluring toward our detriment sometimes!
But from that experience I know:
It is all under our control. All we have to do is say either No or Yes.
and stay in a position of command… over ourselves.It's easy to get distracted because many around us have egoistic goals. They have the potential to exert (negative) influence on others. We also come and go under the fields of collective goals (which are ultimately illusory in nature).
This is verified in the bible. It is helpful to reveal biblical truths in modern terms.
For instance, Thessalonians 3:5 " And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
This is more understandable if you add consciousness after the word Christ.
TWISIAre there particular verses in the Bible which convey similar meaning?
Gs "It's easy to get distracted because many around us have egoistic goals."
Thessalonians 2:3 (Let no man deceive you by any means…)
2:10
3:2
3:6
Gs "They have the potential to exert (negative) influence on others."
Thessalonians 3:13: For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busy bodies.
Gs "We also come and go under the fields of collective goals (which are ultimately illusory in nature.)"
Timothy 6:9 But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
Timothy 6:17: Charge them that are rich in this world, that they not be high minded; nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth richly all things to enjoy.
Timothy 6:19: Laying up in store for themselves (the rich) a good foundation against the time to come, that they may hold on eternal life.
Pardon My Craziness.Just read these verses (by 'googling' them). This is all very interesting.
I would like to add something here, which I forgot to add last time: There is an additional issue which might block us from achieving our goal. We are born as babies in human families. They take 'us' for granted. They usually perceive us to have a 'first start' in this world ~ but they usually do not realize that we might have had lived meaningful lives as full-fledged adults, before taking a birth in their families.
So they might like to impose their goal upon us, or the goal that they would like to choose for a first starter (one who has been born into this world for the first time).So True. I completely concurr!!!
it is very important to observe our children to see what interests them. In the Montessori approach the teacher respects the child's inner life by observing the child to see what it is naturally interested in … and also she advocated encouraging new interests for the the sake of life and as a help to life. Every child reveals what he is good at or has a natural propensity to enjoy. These innate interests and talents should be encouraged.
I have come to believe that parents have what the child needs or was attracted to (on the astral plane before incarnating)... If the parents would share their talents with the child… Not force whatever THEY think the child should do, think or be.
( For instance, my father played piano beautifully and had gone to music school… I am finally taking piano lessons… but, he could have taught me himself! (When I was young and so interested.) I ended up teaching myself at that young age… and so developed many bad habits which I am now having to undo!
)I feel God has a set of criteria to determine 'who' would be sent to which family. I'm guessing these criteria:
1. The most important connection is between the nature of the soul, and the body that would fit it best, and the available homes where mothers have conceived. God is a perfectionist. I observe closely the people around me ~ and people all over the world ~ and each time I'm surprised how the face, body, shape and overall health exactly correlates the person who inhabits that body. It's almost mathematical in precision.
2. The overall character and heart of the (future) father and mother. If they are good and loving ~ they get the 'best' souls.
3. The country where the mother has conceived.
4. The overall quality of life in the home, and the soul who 'deserves' it. The size of the house, material conditions, and overall financial condition.Ah, so those who were born into abusive homes or poverty didn't deserve a good home?
In their previous life, they used to disagree on online forums, for the sake of disagreeing.
No, I'm actually quite curious if you think a child who grows up being sexually abused by their father was born into that family and that situation because they didn't deserve good parents.
Or what about a baby who is born with a body that cannot function past a few days? Was that tiny infant's soul diseased? Did they not deserve any better?The way that we have behaved with others, in past life, (potentially) determines the kind of experiences that are going to have, in the next life.
All these corrupt politicians, officials, businessmen, media professionals, and every other person who had deliberately hurt the feelings of others ~ might not always get the 'good stuff' in the next stage of their life.
I see. It was interesting. I didn't read the Bible in detail. And thank you, for mentioning this. :-)
Yes, that would be better way to put it. It has been my experience that human life ~ no matter how harsh or how materially 'prosperous' ~ is subject to this 'magnetic belt'. All these life experiences ~ all these drama ~ all these pain that seem to be absolute ~ all these love and understanding ~ sunrises and sunsets ~ discovering treasures that were once hidden from us ~ all these stuff arise and fall inside this 'belt'.
It it weren't here ~ all these stuff would have never happened. I feel it as a sensation.But without the body and the five senses what will you feel sensation-wise?
I keep thinking about the after-life these days. If we could work on the after-life during this life…
...we might have a better now.I have spent some time pondering on the issue of afterlife. During my meditations, I've got something like this as a description of what might happen immediately after we die:
1. Most deaths are painful, so we need to endure that.
2. We enter a very dark tunnel.
3. Inside that tunnel, we continue to 'walk', as if endlessly.
4. We might get frightened a bit, because we are helpless, in the sense that we have no idea where the tunnel would end. We keep asking ourselves questions after questions. And as we begin to answer our own questions, as if the tunnel gets a little brighter and brighter by degrees.
5. We sense the mistakes we made in our life, and also the achievements.
6. We realize that we would find the end of the tunnel only when we decide a solution to the problems that we've faced in our life, and fix a goal.
7. We begin to 'see' a doorway.
8. We get out of the doorway and enter the world again. We move aimlessly here and there, unsure what to do, because to materialize our goal, we first need a human body.
9. We are taken away by a 'force' ~ and we become kind of unconscious.
10. We find ourselves as children. We have parents. We find ourselves in a home.
11. We are sent to school. And the whole circle becomes active again.
Yes, quite like 'gravity'. Without gravity it would have been very difficult to create the kind of beauty that we witness around us.
Right, because everyone who believes in God is full of love and dedicates their lives to making the world a better place, and everyone who doesn't believe in God is greedy and selfish.
And whose God are we talking about here? 85% of the population identifies with some religion, so does that mean that the other 15% of us are screwing it all up? Or does it have be specifically the belief in your God that will magically solve all of our problems?That's what you want god to be. Love.... But clearly the world it made wasn't made for love.
We have to kill something every day to eat so we can live. We suffer diseases god created. We suffer pain, both physical and mental.
This isn't our fault, it's the way the world is.
Christians try to blame humans, but all animals have the same problems. Others blame the devil. But the Jews don't believe in a devil. It's all god; both good and evil.
So yes, there is love and it's a wonderful goal. But don't tell us god is love.
I Like to think of it this way; the devil is just god when he's drunk.Well, that may be true, but what is God when he is not drunk?
Probably not all bad, but a mean drunk usually has a difficult personality even when sober. From the way the world is put together I'd say he has a drinking problem and several personality disorders..
What i like to think is that there is no conscious god. That makes people's goals of love for the world, and our very existence really special.
I don't think a conscious god can be forgiven for creating this on purpose. But if this is all the result of an unconscious process then there is nothing to forgive. The world is what it is because it can't be any other way.
That makes our goals for a better world part of the natural process of evolution. Kind of like the universe keeps creating variations of itself, refining them as it goes.
One could say that the universe is attempting to find a perfection and we are part of that process. Not that perfection is possible, of course.
If you wanted to put it in metaphoric religious terms, it's not a perfect god that created us; we, along with the totality of being are slowly trying to create a god state.
That seems to match reality a little better then the idea that an already perfect being created imperfect things and made them to suffer. Why in the world would it do that?
A cruel drunk indeed. .I hear ya!
But what if everything had been perfect… "Adam" and "Eve" (the first spiritual prototypes) were spiritual beings living harmoniously in perfect conditions on Earth… (I have heard they could even create children in spiritual ways… not through pregnancy and the birth canal… some other way…)
But, then what happened is this: These spirit beings began seeing each other in more and more earth-like ways… they actually had sex as they saw the animals doing. They decided it would be interesting to love each other, rather than God alone. But, then their consciousness fell… and they lost all the spiritual qualities they once had.
As they became more and more earth bound, they lost their intuition (the sixth sense) and therefore their connection to their Spiritual Creator. They started using only their five senses and identifying more and more with their egos (sense of self) and each other... and less and less with their true natures (pure love) and Spirit.
So you see, He created us perfect and we lost all we once were and all we once had: Eden. And we have been trying to gain it back ever since… mostly failng... Who is doing the failing?
We are.
...and this is just The Way I See It and please Pardon My Craziness.Yeah but there is a problem with that. If we fell we were never perfect to begin with. And what reason would a perfect being have for creating us, perfect or not? The point being that a perfect being would have no needs and no need to create us. If there is a perfect god with needs it isn't perfect. needs change a thing and absolute perfection wouldn't be changeable. In a perfect thing or state all needs would have been met to the point where they don't exist.
If you think of your life you can always see ways to change something to make it better. But eventually if you managed to change everything you could think of you would have reached a kind of perfection.
But as long as you have to interact with things that are not perfect you run the risk of changing and losing that tenuous perfection. Unless everything is perfect there is always the risk of eventual problems and needs.
The only way to achieve absolute perfection is when there are no needs and when everything is in the same state. So the fact that we exist precludes the possibility that is perfect.
And if he's all knowing then he knew we would fall, and that was part of his plan all along. Talk about being cruel. Who puts poison trees in a play pen and tells the kids not to touch them? He knew in advance they would were he all knowing.
Too many problems with the christian god. It makes no sense.Well, back up a bit: God created a body for himself and then another one and another one… these god infused bodies were perfect, perhaps even neuter..… But, if One is God and One has Free Will then what was created ALSO HAS FREE WILL and can choose to either stay in tune to the SELF that created himself, OR NOT!
Besides which, God is also quite creative! (understatement) And that is MY dilemma... If I decide to stay disconnected from God in an ultimate sense and play creatively on the earth for more than a couple of lifetimes, is there a time factor…? Do I have to go back, if I want to stay (or return) and play? If I am willing to endure the suffering of being so disconnected from, (not conscious of,) my actual essence…
How I love to create!
Thats why I think it is up to us, as far as deciding when we are 100 percent willing to return back into the essence from which we came… re-uniting our consciousness with the Great Spirit out of which we …formed ourselves and became identified with our separateness.
Thats the illusion: Our individuality.
If time is relative, I don't think it matters as far as when. Whenever. Its up to us and how much suffering we are willing to put up with. According to Jesus, when we are willing, body mind and soul, we can return in the twinkling of an eye. In that moment God will bring us "home." But, He won't if we are not one hundred percent willing. Who is?
Jesus was...
PMCYou know that creation is caused by conflict, don't you? Conflict demands resolution and that spurns new ways to try to resolve the conflict.
Conflict comes in many forms including the artistic need to self express. Conflict comes from resolving needs.
Most people value creativity, but when asked they would say they would love to get rid of all conflict and all needs in their lives. But they don't realize that no conflict and no needs means no creativity. No need for it.
But as to your other question, according to some there is no time line As the moody blues said:
Everything's turning, turning around
See with your mind, leave your body behind
Now that we're out here open your heart
To the universe of which we're a part
But if you want to play
Stay right back on earth
Waiting for rebirthVery cool (and appropriate!) verses you know.
Hmmm... thinking about conflict…I would say for me, creativity comes from the love of what I see around me… Impressionism came from love of natural life... of the greatness of nature, light/form and people and their interesting realities… the conflict the Impressionists were resolving was one of value… they wanted to reveal the greatness of life, rather than classical antiquity.
What did God want to do? Make himself a body to do things in… tired of being formless and basically alone in darkness… so he created light and the rest is history.
For us to go home is an extreme wish…. to WANT to be formless again??? But as you say being stuck in form might get old and present a conflict which we must resolve…
it is all VERY confusing to say the least.
Thanks for the interesting chat.
"Kind of like the universe keeps creating variations of itself, refining them as it goes." Personification of the universe?
"An already perfect being created imperfect things and made them to suffer. Why in the world would it do that?" Created things must be perfected. We are being perfected in Christ. It's a process. Why suffering? First, it's the natural result or consequence of sin and disobedience. Second, though painful, suffering produces much of worth, including the above mentioned "perfection" in us. "Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Let perseverance finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." (James 1:2-4) (See also verses about pruning, discipline, etc.)
The problems of the world are…
based on the need to survive here... and not really having a sure fire way. Adam and eve had it made and then they blew it! Then they died.
What if they hadn't blown it?
What is our common destiny?
If we know what it is, could mankind reestablish Eden…?"There are no problems in this world, as such. Most is our perception. Most problems are illusions inside the 'magnetic belt'."
I'll take this. Thank You.
Working with "the programmer" should help, as well.Wow, Kathryn, is this the sort of "love" you were referring to? Believing that everyone who was dealt a crappy hand must've done something to deserve it?
You should edit the word: 'everyone'. After we are born ~ we can do almost nothing if a virus attacks us, or if a hidden genetic tendency suddenly reveals itself, or if the truck hits us.
And it's obvious to me now that you haven't carefully read through this thread (not even the very posts that have 'attracted' you):
"1. The most important connection is between the nature of the soul, and the body that would fit it best, and the available homes where mothers have conceived. God is a perfectionist. I observe closely the people around me ~ and people all over the world ~ and each time I'm surprised how the face, body, shape and overall health exactly correlates the person who inhabits that body. It's almost mathematical in precision.
2. The overall character and heart of the (future) father and mother. If they are good and loving ~ they get the 'best' souls.
3. The country where the mother has conceived.
4. The overall quality of life in the home, and the soul who 'deserves' it. The size of the house, material conditions, and overall financial condition."
http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2676530
I read it. Quoting yourself again doesn't make me read it any differently.
If God is a perfectionist then there probably wouldn't be any "hidden" genetic tendencies, would there?Then you didn't understand it. Or pretended not to understand it.
Briefly, here is my take:
Karma. If you kill by the sword you will die by the sword… if not this life, the next. We have to live the experiences we have dished out to others. If we abused a child we are destined to live through that experience ourselves. A lifetime can provide the training ground for positive change.
Jesus said, " In my fathers house are many mansions…" To me, this means like souls dwell on the astral plane together according to similar karma whether good or bad. If you have gang mentality and don't mind killing people to fit in with your bros then yes you will be drawn to that life style and live with the people you have Karma with. Families attract like souls if you notice. In an abusive home the child/victim probably abused a child in his or her last life as an adult. (Or the soul could have chosen the home to help bring light into the situation.)
Generally speaking, it is for teaching purposes that we reap karma. It is also known as the cosmic law of justice.
Good Karma is rewarded as well. That is the type to focus on. Doing good deeds, being honest and helpful to friends, family and your "neighbors": those you come into contact with. The Bible says to help people going astray by treating them as your brothers and giving them sound advice when they ask for it or to protect yourself from their actions and "trespasses."
PMCThank you again :-)
(Have some business. Be back in a few hours. Tk care)I don't even know what to say to this.
I have seen little angels with broken bodies and spirits begging for help from the people that were supposed to be protecting them but were torturing them.
I don't know if you realize that you just said it was their fault. That they deserved it. That it was some sort of cosmic punishment for being bad. You just said what the abusers tell these little poor souls everyday to excuse their own cruelty.
Are you really OK with that? I mean, are you so sure of your beliefs that you would walk into a PICU and give that explanation to a child asking "Why did daddy hurt me?"...according to my understanding based on what I have read and have accepted...Souls are born into conducive situations according to their spiritual evolution. I have heard it said that Divine Mother knows what the soul can handle. There is an amount of karma going on. Why do the parents not have as much compassion as you, a stranger, I ask? I agree children are innocent and born perfect. Evil is evil. But, God and the child knew what the situation was ahead of the birth. (There is no need to explain the deeper reasons unless the child asks and is old enough, etc.)
I know you do not believe this and I do not wish to argue. I am fine with agreeing to disagree.
PS The problem is deep and this understanding can't be used to explain away the injustice and the abuse. That would be evil and I am not.
Thanks.So, if I read you correctly...
Not only is it their fault, but they agreed to it? Do you think they actually requested it as well?
Kathyrn, do you actually realize what you are saying? Do you really believe this? I only ask because such statements are so damaging and dangerous as to make me doubt their sincerity. So I'm wondering if maybe there was a desire for shock-factor... was that it?Oh brother, Melissa. Just never mind!
Your willingness to misconstrue what we are talking about… metaphysics... is exactly why so many books of the bible were burned, I imagine.
And why we can't just get along.I was responding to what you typed. As far as everybody not getting along... getting along doesn't mean that one has to allow dangerous statements to go unchallenged for the sake of peace. I haven't been rude or insulting and if you equate "not getting along" to mean that no one ever disagrees with you... then your definition is neither likely nor desirable.
- you are using literality as a weapon against the truth. Why?
John 8: 24: I said therefore unto you that ye shall die in your sins; for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." But that is not the end of the story. We have a chance to redeem ourselves and to recommit toward fairness and peace. For we get another chance to follow Jesus who said, "I am come that they might have life and that they may have it more abundantly." John 10:10.
What... you think we only get one shot?
We don't.
Reincarnation is a given.
According to credible sources I have read. Makes sense to me.
If it seems dangerous to you, don't read it.And you are using deflection to avoid answering her question. Why?
Do you intentionally wait for people to reply to your posts just so you can edit them?Well, I am responding to what you said (literal) because I can't read your mind. If you meant something else, please elaborate. I'm not using anything as a weapon, I am disagreeing with what you said. As it is your words I disagree with, I am referencing them. And finally, I don't see anything true, so I'm not battling "truth" I am disagreeing with an astonishingly objectionable opinion on an internet forum.
Edit in response to your edit: Reincarnation isn't the issue I'm objecting to. I am objecting to your specific ideas of reincarnation. Ideas that don't really exist in any standard version of reincarnation that I am aware of.Have you read anything about the law of karma?
" The effect of karma need not be immediate; the effect of karma can be later in one's current life, and in some schools it extends to future lives."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KarmaActually, yes. From many credible sources. I've also discussed it extensively with individuals of faiths that practice/believe it. Nowhere does it say that children are abused because they did something wrong in their former lives.
Can you find me a credible source?
Edit: Yes, that is a wiki article on Karma. It in no way relates to this conversation. In addition, your words are not dangerous to me. I am not an abused child being blamed for my own abuse.
"In an abusive home the child/victim probably abused a child in his or her last life as an adult."
This is disturbing. Honestly.The soul must learn empathy. It doesn't seem fair, I agree. Why is it not disturbing to the child abuser? ???
"The just-world hypothesis or just-world fallacy is the cognitive bias (or assumption) that a person's actions are inherently inclined to bring morally fair and fitting consequences to that person, to the end of all noble actions being eventually rewarded and all evil actions eventually punished. In other words, the just-world hypothesis is the tendency to attribute consequences to—or expect consequences as the result of—a universal force that restores moral balance. This belief generally implies that in the existence of cosmic justice, destiny, divine providence, desert, stability, or order, and has high potential to result in fallacy, especially when used to rationalize people's misfortune on the grounds that they "deserve" it."
Sound familiar?
We live on totally different planets if you think victim blaming is going to make the world a better place.- whats your problem with logical consequences? The cosmic law works perfectly. Mistakes are not made by a just God.
20 hours and 4 pages later the realization sets in, at least it should.
"Can't we all just get along?"
No.Oh, I think we could all get along. That is quite different from all agreeing, however.
This sums up our disagreement:
"Those schools of Hinduism, Buddhism and Jainism that rely on karma-rebirth theory have been critiqued for their theological explanation of suffering in children by birth, as the result of his or her sins in a past life.
Others disagree, and consider the critique as flawed and a misunderstanding of the karma theory." (Used the wiki info because its there. Oh well.)
So there you have it.
We just disagree.
If we agree to disagree we can still get along.I am having no problems with getting along, however I respectfully decline to agree to disagree. Nor does the quote you gave address the issue. I don't have a flawed understanding of Karma, you do. It's almost like you grabbed soundbites and applied it to the world without understanding how it really works. Kind of like summing the Bible up with "Christ died on a cross" without any deeper knowledge, and forming your own faith from that statement alone.
Now, the problem I have with blaming the victim is multi-faceted. Firstly, it makes the victim unlikely to seek help. If they believe it is their fault (because they were horrible in their last life) they will feel that their situation is a fitting punishment and doesn't need to change. Secondly, it reduces sympathy and empathy for true victims. I can't imagine looking at a four-month old with several broken bones and shaken baby syndrome and saying "It was a consequence of their own action." However, I can easily imagine that line of thought meaning that other people would not step in to protect those who can't protect themselves. After all, why would anyone help someone who was just getting what they deserve? Since children have absolutely no way of defending themselves, they rely on the sympathy of others for that protection. Your beliefs would eliminate that sympathy. Thirdly, if they are taught that the behavior of the abuser settles some cosmic score and is necessary, they will see no problem in repeating that behavior.
How would you address these issues that agreeing to disagree with your opinion would create?
There is no such thing as pure motive or virtue or pure logic. The natural man is incapable of these. We are subjective to one degree or another. Each has an agenda. Agreeing or agreeing to disagree only last as long as the next subject.
We can read the Bible (of course its first), the qoran, science, history, on and on and find the proofs.
We find it is a theological fact, "scientific fact" and historical fact that the answer is "No."Yet, there are those who hope we can all get along. It just takes being on the same page…
Is it impossible?
I would say yes.
Obviously.
Gs discovered this idea about the soul's experience in the after life, through meditation:
"5. We sense the mistakes we made in our life, and also the achievements.
6. We realize that we would find the end of the tunnel only when we decide a solution to the problems that we've faced in our life, and fix a goal."
This makes sense to me."I am not an abused child being blamed for my own abuse."
Where did I blame a child for his own abuse? I am saying there is karma involved on some level. Thats all. it is important to to see the big picture.
BTW Why do some not love their children?
Why?You asked and answered your own question. Karma is not involved in child abuse, saying that it is related is implying blame.
It is unrelated, but some people do not love their own children because of psychological issues.I disagree that it implies blame. The psychological issues are totally related.
No, they aren't Kathryn. Buddhists, Hindus and certainly not Janes do not equate karma with mental illness. Anywhere. You can certainly disagree that it implies blame if you like, but there are whole pages of psychological literature dealing with victim blaming that contain statements almost identical to the ones you are making.
For instance:
My mother had a very short temper. She railed on me for minute things and yelled and yelled and hit me and my brothers for minor offenses. (not all the time, you know, but occasionally.) Now, I too have a short temper, (being of Scottish descent and obviously short tempered in my last life.) But, I resolved to never ever inflict it upon others because I did not want others to suffer as I did. Therefore, I learned to control my temper due to my own suffering at the hands of a mother who had a bad temper. In my next life, I might be born to a mother with a sweet kind disposition!
Of course, I might just not need to reincarnate at all if I meditate and find heaven within through Christ (consciousness)....which is the real point of this discussion!Again, not really karma. Just learning from experience. What you are missing, and its causing all kinds of distorted conclusions, is the place of karma within the karmatic faiths. It doesn't exist as a separate entity and can't be copied and pasted onto other faiths. It's not a A=B thing.
You are completely misunderstanding the role of karma, which is justice/balancing/learning. None of these things can be accomplished without knowledge. In short, the person has to know what they have a karmic debt for and understand how they are repaying it. Infants do not, they are not subject to karma within these faiths any more than they are subject to hell in the Christian faith.
The criticisms that come are generally used in reference to caste... an aspect that is vital to those criticisms that you have discarded while creating your own mish-mash religion.
But none of this matters in context of my objections.Thank you for expounding upon your views. They are very interesting.
You consider my views to be mish-mashed. I do not mind mish-mash. As a kid at Thanksgiving dinner I would mush up my plate. It would really irritate my mother.
Do you know any people who were abused as children? Are you comfortable saying they must have been a child abuser in their past life?
Someone very, very close to me was sexually abused by her father when she was a child. I am literally shaking with rage at the suggestion that she went through that because she did the same to someone else in a past life. Or that she asked for it to learn empathy (?!). That just makes me sick.
You asked what was wrong with thinking this way and I don't even know where to start. It seems to me to be a way to hide and pretend that horrible things aren't going to happen to you because you're not a horrible person. I get it, it's nice to think that universe is just and that you're protected. But in doing so, you're assuming that those who have bad things happen to them are/were bad people, and that is NOT okay. This is why we see women being blamed for being raped or abused. It's the "they must have done something to deserve it" mentality that keeps it going and it's the same justification the rapists/abusers themselves use.The child/soul was attracted on some level to a parent with very little empathy or self control. Why?
I am not justifying evil. I am explaining that the law of cosmic justice is in operation on a very subtle level. I think it is too subtle to talk about. I may just shut up now.You're still saying that they put themselves in that situation. No matter how you spin it, you're blaming the victim for being in that situation. I don't understand how anyone thinks that's okay.
Just read through this thread and I'm feeling kind of confused and disturbed! I was agreeing with everything Melissa said...
Kathryn, I don't think it's really your intent to blame victims as you're doing here, and I think you are a compassionate person, but please rethink this whole thing - from even indirectly blaming child abuse victims to intermixing the truth of the Word with the world's deceptions.The issue is this:
I believe in reincarnation and you do not. Jesus actually mentions it, but Christians do not want to acknowledge it.
You and Melissa cannot get on board with the concept of the soul choosing its situation and life's lessons as it incarnates into a new body. Melissa and I have debated on this in the past. I think I eventually got banned during that discussion.
I believe the soul has awareness and chooses its life's path beforehand. It is attracted to people and situations it can learn from. Sometimes a soul will take on bad karma of others to help them learn empathy and compassion. I believe every soul chooses the family and parents and even directs its own formation by selecting certain characteristics within the available DNA. I am, of course, speculating in the imagined realm of possibilities.
As always, Please please...
Pardon My Craziness
PS If you think it is harmful to speculate this way please tell me how it is detrimental.You wrote
"I believe in reincarnation and you do not. Jesus actually mentions it, but Christians do not want to acknowledge it."
Can you tell me, please, where do you find this "doctrine" in the Bible?You're a very pleasant person, Kathryn, and I'm sorry you were ever banned. Seems pretty common here in the religious forums, as some here regularly instigate, blame, and then jump at the opportunity to report and get the one opposing them banned. There's one here who doesn't speak to me and says she'll report any response I give her posts, first saying because she doesn't speak to "self-professed prophets", but then changing her story into one in which she's a victim and I stalked her by responding to her posts about me, lol.
You are right that I don't believe in reincarnation. I haven't seen anything supporting it in the Word and am curious as to where you've found that which you believe does indicate reincarnation occurs.
I do know that you have NO intent to cause any harm, that you are speaking what you believe, and that it makes sense to you in terms of justice, BUT I do see the speculations as harmful and detrimental in the same way a couple of others here have indicated: it does in a big way place blame on victims of abuse and other hardships. This victim blaming can lead to greater levels of abuse, greater self-blaming and greater psychological struggles of victims, greater societal acceptance of abuse by others and consequently less empathy and action taken to eliminate abuses. Abuse is the responsibility of the abuser (even if the abused is difficult, etc.) and anything that even implies that abuse is a just or deserved thing based on current or past life behaviors is dangerous in terms of increasing and permitting such abuses.
Is hardship ever the result of our poor decisions and behaviors? Yes, of course, we've all seen that. But for many, hardships come not because of what someone is doing wrong, but because of what they're doing right. Think of Job who suffered great losses and sickness, think of the persecuted Christians, the martyred saints, and so on. These people do not often receive their justice or reward while on earth, but will receive it in a far better way - for all of eternity! Is it also true that the blessing of the Lord often results in greater ease of life, a good life, and so on? Yes! For example, America (and other countries) blessed the Lord and the Lord blessed her (them), so that the "poorest" had comforts and ease of life not found in many other countries. Because of the overall blessings here, even those without food generally find it, whereas those in many other countries who are literally starving would be overjoyed to find our dumpsters full of food to feast on. Since both blessings and hardships may come as a result of following and honoring the Lord, we humans can make no judgments on it either way - not on the one who is struggling, and not on the one who is prospering.You do enjoy misrepresenting things don't you?
The person in question asked you to stop talking to her period, which you neglected to do. Not sure why you are trying to make it sound like she "changed her story" out of convenience, rather than directly from you ignoring her request.
Generally if I ask someone to stop talking to me directly and they ignore me and continue to do so anyway, I would consider that stalking/harassment to a degree.
I also feel that you know this already, unless I have the wrong person in mind, but the person you are talking about is in this forum. Are you trying to bait them into correcting you by any chance? Would seem dishonest of you if that's the case....oh, brother! she was merely commiserating with me! why do people read way more into what is keyboarded that what was actually keyboarded? we should learn to take things at face value.
TWISIDidn't you just do that like a page or 2 ago?
So rather than question your actual understanding of things, people here should have just assumed that you are perfectly okay with blaming the misfortune of child abuse on the children rather than the abuser. Okey doke.Please rephrase your queries more clearly - so that we may start to answer them and satisfy you.
And I've been back less than a week and it starts again...
I guess I'm just hard to get over or some suchThe comment she replied to even had your name in it to boot. Doesn't do much to make me think I was wrong.
No biggie. I'm not Angelina Jolie, and it doesn't happen often, but I've dealt with an occasional girl-crush here and there. I think I can deal with this.
You make perfect sense. However, I have read the Bhagavad Gita which deals with metaphysics more than the Bible. Without knowing the whole picture I remain confused.
As I mentioned, (according to my reading of the Gita, and other sources based on Eastern philosophy,) some souls come into harsh situations to help the world with its karma. So they willingly take on bad Karma… as Jesus himself did, in order to help change bad (illusion) into good (reality).
Thats not always the case and some end up with people, like themselves based on past-life bad habits, who are selfish, mean and undisciplined in patience, empathy or kindness. This is not BLAME for the third time! I do not imply blame nor do I blame the victims. Its just the natural happenstance of their karma. They will be in a situation to work through it and come out as better people. Furthermore, through their suffering they could be motivated to join the crusade against this type of abominable behavior!
And work to eradicate such a lack of empathy, love, compassion and selflessness in the world.
I myself, think people need to to have a lot training before having children.
Raising a child is a huge responsibility.
So men and women, step away from the eggs and the testosterone unless you are ready to bring forth a new soul who is currently sleeping peacefully in the arms of the angels.
I'm not aware of any passage in the Bible that relates to the validity of reincarnation. (If it were so, I suspect my next life would start as a fly!)
On the contrary, the Bible is quite clear on there being no second chances at life and redoing it. Its not a pleasant area of discussion, never-the-less it is scriptural.What is the nature of un-eternal life? who can explain, 1 Corinthians 15: 26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."
Revelation 21 in the first seven verses explains the verses from 1Corinthians.
As to un-eternal life, it would seem to be a play on words given you by someone. Life on earth, as we know, is un-eternal. We all will face an end here. Following that, we face eternity which is eternal.
There is an interesting side bar to the Sodom and Gemmorah incident that is missed by most. In Genesis 18 starting at vese 22, we have the kind hearted Abraham pleading for the cities. God listens to his plea and agrees with Abe's pleading. The problem is Abe thinks he knows something that God doesn't.
My point is we don't know as much as we think we do. But further, if we are going to trust in God (and I am preaching more to myself than anyone else), if we are going to trust in God, it can't be just when we agree with Him or understand Him. And trusting God begins with believing Him when He says that Jesus is the only way to eternal life, John 3:16.No, I need to understand. Why are you content not to?
...as far as reincarnation: Jesus proclaimed that John the Baptist had been Elias. Matthew 11:14
"And if ye receive it, this is Elias, (Elijah,) which was for to come."
And Elisha (of 2 Kings) returned as...Good morning Kath. We have two items here. First "receive" means this is an analogy. Jesus is saying something like "Do you understand that John has fulfilled the prophecy of Elias, but on a small scale." Jesus expands on this in Matthew 17:11 where he makes the statement that Elias will "truly" come again, meaning he had not as yet. But more importantly, Elias/Elijah, did not die.
There are two folks in the Bible of ancient times which were taken up by God, but did not die, Elijah and Enoch (Genesis 5:24). Of course God always has reasons for the presently improbable and unexplainable. I suspect there is a future use for these men.
On trolling ... just don't feed the fire. You will note the same names with the same vehemence in many other titled forums.
But lets not get down on those that stick around and disagree with us, properly. Some are searching for answers, others have all the answers. Yet, they have their point of view and should be allowed to express it.
You asked why we can't all get along? Some just don't want to. So we deal with it.Here is the end to the debate on "whether God is 'revengeful, or not": This thread was approaching 'perfectly', until some felt it their duty to interfere with it. Well, I can endure you.
So, here is The Explanation That Has Been 'Requested' by you:
God is not revengeful. Reincarnation doesn't occur on the basis of punishment. God is not interested in punishing human souls: any form of 'punishment' arises on the human level. The phenomenon of punishment is as irrelevant to God, as the phenomenon of the (human) 'judicial-system' is irrelevant to panda bears, or to dolphins. So, what happens to criminals, rapists, and to every type of torturers during reincarnation? -God is a perfectionist. I've never witnessed a single instance in my life, where the physique of the person that I have met, his/her family, his/her financial status didn't correlate to the love (or the lack of thereof) in his/her heart, his/her interests and his/her overall attitude towards life.
Every action that we perform - against the voice of our 'conscience' - stamps a signet on our consciousness. We may somehow learn various ways to suppress the mark of this signet - from the people who come near to us. But we can never erase it. It will be there with us as long as we are alive in this world. And it continues to exist even after our physical death. God can (telepathically) sense the inner condition of every soul: just the way that parents can (and do) sense the inner conditions of their children, or the way that we 'measure' the mood and intentions of our friends, colleagues, acquaintances, or that of sales professionals and vendors. The 'success' of our daily life depends on the level of (our) efficiency for measuring this quality (of the human soul/character).
Every (serious) criminal accumulates so much negativity inside their heart (and soul) during their lifetime on earth ~ that it becomes 'impossible' for God to place these souls into families where every type of positivity predominates. God can not, for say, place the soul of a rapist into the house of an 'animal lover', or in the house of a poet, or a painter, or a religious activist, or to any individual with an 'evolved' awareness. These souls (who bear these 'marks') are sent into homes, and to parents, who have similar frequency of consciousness. God is 'indifferent' to these souls: in the sense that God has no wish, or need, to punish them. God is rather interested in keeping order and beauty in Its universe.Well said, Gs.
Isn't it great to understand the metaphysical aspect of the physical? They are, after all, one.
Without this understanding how can anyone become willingly obedient. Unwilling obedience is what we are fighting. How else could the snake have tempted Eve in the garden? I mean, if she were willingly obedient, she easily could have told the snake, "No way, get out of here! I am not having sex with Adam! I believe the apple (or the pomegranate) represents the sense of sensual pleasure i.e. sex. Not that sex is bad, of course, just that it brought our energy down into the physical bodies by way of lowering the consciousness to the second chakra. Willful obedience will return our consciousness to the higher levels required for us to return home, i. e. reach samadi.
(I am conversing with God shet, because he seems to be receptive to metaphysical understanding. As always, this info is according to what I have read and my own reasoning and not due to meditation or direct knowledge.
It just makes sense to me.
Just sharin'Stop, God shet you are frightening people! Apparently you are bringing forth "damnable heresies" and "pernicious ways" Not only that, you are "denying the Lord!"
Yikes.
Metaphysics IS dangerous.
We are going to hell, probably. See you there.
Since I am going to hell, let me close by repeating this brilliant surmise:
Isn't it great to understand the metaphysical aspect of the physical? They are, after all, one.
Without this understanding how can anyone become willingly obedient. Unwilling obedience is what we are fighting. How else could the snake have tempted Eve in the garden? I mean, if she were willingly obedient, she easily could have told the snake, "No way, get out of here! I am not having sex with Adam! I believe the apple (or the pomegranate) represents the sense of sensual pleasure i.e. sex. Not that sex is bad, of course, just that it brought our energy down into the physical bodies by way of lowering the consciousness to the second chakra. Willful obedience will return our consciousness to the higher levels required for us to return home, i. e. reach samadi.
Bye, going to hell now.What is the nature of rebellion? You defined it as a hostile attitude toward God, but did not explain WHY it exists.
As you asked: Why would I rebel against LIFE itself?
Why would anyone??????
You said:
"But the unbeliever does not welcome what comes from God's Spirit.
Why not?"
Why did Adam and Eve fall? They believed in God, because he talked to them. Yet still they were tempted. Is temptation the same as rebellion?
"Guys, don't do this!" is just not enough is it?
And then afterwards. "Go ahead have at it!"
You will suffer, you will toil, you will reap what you have sown.
Did God mention all that beforehand?My answers based on my views:
1. Can you explain the nature of this rebellion and provide examples?
The nature of rebellion: Knowingly going against the principles of health, life and peace:
A. drug/substance abuse
B. alcohol use/ abuse
C. smoking cigarettes
D. eating junk food
E. not exercising
F. not meditating/praying for self and others
G. not helping others
2. How does "rebellion" reveal itself. Exactly?
A. Not wanting or trying to live a positive life in harmony with self and others.
B. Sheer Laziness
C. Lack of self mastery
3. Why would anyone rebel against love?
A. Because they don't know love.
B. They are angry and bitter.
C. They are not motivated or inspired by the Bible or holy men/women who believe in God.
4. How do I recognize God's love?
A. By acknowledging and recognizing all the amazing things in my life and the lives of others.
B. By feeling God's presence within me.
5. Have you ever rebelled against it?
A. Never.
B. Am I too lazy to meditate sometimes? Yes, but it is not out of rebellion. Out of restlessness.
6. I believe in eternal life. What is the nature of that life?
Bliss consciousness coming from the source of God which is within me.
7. What is the nature of death?
A. Not knowing God within and without.I would say the main sin is restlessness.
The solution then is to calm the mind.
The real solution for mankind, to help us all be on the same page, is to meditate on God.
Simple as that.
Thanks all.
We are all on the same page because we are all one, but we just don't know it yet.
Luckily, ignorance is temporary.
TWISINice bit of Freud i was just reading, that seems extremely apt. Had to read this back about 4 times, constantly grinning...
"The common man cannot imagine this religious providence otherwise than an immensely exalted father. Only such a being can know the needs of the chidren of men, be softened by their pleas and propitiated by signs of their remorse. All this so patently infantile, so remote from reality, that it pains a philanthropic temperament to think that the great majority of mortals will never be able to rise above such a view of life. It is still more embarrassing to learn how many of those living today, who cannot help seeing that this religion is untenable, nevertheless seek to defend it, bit by bit, in pathetic rearguard actions."
And I believe (in the proper sense of the word believe) that the answer to 'can we all get along?' ... is no. Not until silly mind control cult books that preach war and death and oppression are wiped out. But... if I'm forced to pick a made up 'idea'... there's a god on some island in the pacific somewhere that offers as many coconuts as you can carry when you die. I like coconuts and I have long armsIf your god would float the coconuts down into your arms, that would be good.
If we could all realize we are here to get out of here we would all be on the same page.
Its time to go home!
But of course, each to their own.
...until then its okay to not be on the same page.
and we will all get along if we just accept that.
God shet, you can come back now! I was just kidding when I said "Stop…" Where did you go?
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