Vision And Revelation Hell and theVolcano

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   DeaneMcposted 15 years ago

   I'm sitting here studying my Bible and the Lord gave me a revelation of hell.
   A few days ago I watched a documentary on volcanoes. I only watched a few minutes of it, no detailed information.
   As I was praying and asking God what He wanted to show me in the Word today, I believe he led me to scriptures about fire and brimstone. I remembered seeing a view taken above the volcano and looking down into it the Lord revealed to me, that is fire and brimstone.This will be like hell.
   I know not all people believe in Jesus and they certainly don't believe that if they don't receive salvation they want go to hell when they die, because they believe there is no hell.
   I am not here to argue the beliefs of other people. I am just here to write what I believe in my heart and once I have written this and others read it, whatever decision they make is on them and their blood is not on my hands.
   Matthew 27:24...
   Do you remember when Jesus was taken up to Pilate and Pilate could find no wrong in Jesus, Pilate washed his hands and said "I am innocent of this man's blood; see to that yourselves.
   Luke 16:19-24 Now there was a certain rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, gaily living in splendor every day.(20) And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered in his sores.(21) and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores.(22) Now when it came about that the poor, man died and he was carried away by some angles to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.(23) And in Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away, and Lazarus in his bosom.(24) And he cried out and said, "Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue; for I am in agony in this flame.
   (Hades-the unseen world in general, but specifically dead between death and judgment at the great white throne [Revelation 20:11-15]. In this saying the Lord taught (1) conscious existence after death;(2) the reality and torment of hell; (3) no second chance after death.
   
   Given this word here is the rest of the message: Genesis 19:24 Then the Lord rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven.
   (19:24...brimstone and fire; deposits of sulfur (brimstone) and asphalt have been found in this area.
   Deut. 29:23 All it's land is brimstone and salt, a burning waste, unsown and unproductive, and no grass grows in it, like the over throw of Sodom and Gomorrah.
   Brimstone, sulfur or the stifling sulfurous gases that come from volcanic eruption.
   
   Psalm 11:6 Upon the wicked, He will rain snares; fire and brimstone and burning wind will be the portion of their cup.
   
   Revelation 9:17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them; the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone.
   Revelation 14:9-11 and another angle. a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, if anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or upon his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angles and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and receives the mark of his name.
   Revelation 21:8 But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murders and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars; their part will be in the lake of fire and brimstone which is the second death.  (21:8 brimstone=sulfur)
   
   Now while this is a long message it is necessary to be written. I think of the scenes I saw of the pictures that was taken above the volcano and the thought of dying and spending an eternity in a place that burns with fire and brimstone, I can't even fathom. Imagine the smallest burn you have ever received and how bad that hurt. Can you imagine what it would be like to spend an eternity in a place thousands of times worse than that little burn, forever, never to be given another chance.]
   I had rather trust in what the Word of God says and believe in the saving grace and salvation of Jesus any day than to not believe and go to hell.
   I can identify with the prophet Jeremiah when he says, my soul, my soul, I am in anguish ! Oh, my heart! My heart is pounding in me: I cannot be silent, because you have heard, Oh, my soul the sound of the trumpet (warning) Disaster on disaster is proclaimed for the whole land is devastated. I looked on the earth and behold, it was formless and void.
   (the original state of the world)
   There is a day coming for everyone...they will stand before God and will you hear him say come on in my good a faithful servant or go away for I know you not?
   My heart breaks for the unbelieving. I know things are happening really fast in this life and we never know when our last day will be on this earth for all will someday die. I realize not everyone will be saved but for us that have been saved we must be about our Father's business and try to reach as my for the Lord as we possibly can. It's not about gaining material things and riches, for what does it profit a man if he gain the whole world and lose his soul? We brought nothing in this world with us and we will take nothing with us when our days are done in this world.

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      Hell N0posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The deceptions of Satan are sad indeed.  Have you told that little girl there about the loving god that will send people into a volcano to be burned eternally if they don't happen to buy into such swill?  How would you feel if such a thing were to happen to her?  Do you really believe that God gave you a revelation?  You are not even at the starting gate for understanding the bible.  For better understanding, visit bible-truths.com

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   Paragliderposted 15 years ago

   That wasn't hell it was a helicopter. Flying over a volcano.

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      aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think she said "it was like".
      Sure, it was a volcano and a helicopter, but "was like" an analogy! !

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         Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I know, I know. But it was a broadcast tv show, to thousands of homes. To appropriate it as a revelation from God is a bit far fetched.

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            aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Why?
            Some people refer to such moments as "the penny finally dropped"!
            I have had numerous occasions when someone (not neccessarily a christian) said something that came as a "timely Word from God" that clarified something that was not clear before that moment. The "revelation" is not the tv show. It's the deeper meaning behind it that counts in this instance. Jesus used (parables) stories of ordinary things to convey heavenly/spiritual teaching. I'm sure you know some yourself(?).

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               Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               What penny? There's nothing remotely subtle about a pit of burning sulphur. It's a wrongheaded idea. The idea that any 'god' would create a torture chamber just for fun is so patently wrong that it deserves to be laughed at.

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                  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  First of all it's not "funny"! God takes "no pleasure in the death of any man, (person)". His LOVE for man(kind) has made a way of escape from the (punishment if sin) and destruction. If you really understood the Gospel(GOOD NEWS) message, you would know what manner of love God has for his own creation. HE, Himself, took upon Himself, human flesh. We know Him as Jesus, and actually took our place.
                  FYI. hell was created for satan, and all his demons(fallen angels). But, if you (continue) to follow him, you will have the same fate. (nb.when I am saying "you", I mean anyone, collectively). Another word could have been "y-all".

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                     Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                     I'll take my chances. But please enlighten me on this point. Hell is described as a place where the worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. I want you to tell me exactly what the worm does. Do we get one each or do we all share? Tell me in detail what you believe about this worm. I've asked this of a few Christians and they all refuse to give me details, because they are ashamed of the primitive and evil belief. How about you?

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                        aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        I don't know.
                        And it's not a major doctrinal issue anyway.
                        I don't want one in ME, whatever it is. My (or for that matter, anyones) life is not changed one bit by knowing this detail. However knowing the salvation of Jesus, might make a bigger difference. Don't you think?

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                        Roseberryposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                        Worm
                        Skolex
                        
                        Worm signifies the exclusion of the hope of restoration, the punishment being pronouced will be eternal
                        
                        The New living translation
                        
                        Is.66:24
                        24 And as they go out, they will see
                              the dead bodies of those who have rebelled against me.
                           For the worms that devour them will never die,
                              and the fire that burns them will never go out.
                           All who pass by
                              will view them with utter horror.”

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                           Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                           Thank you for that explanation. It convinces me that I am right in my assessment that it is a foul belief that demeans the human spirit. It doesn't bother me because there is no reason to believe it true, but it does bother me that otherwise decent folk go around believing that this is the fate that awaits most of humankind.

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                              mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                              I would translate this differently.
                              We all have worms or tiny animals inside us who live on us,infact millions of insects reside in  us and as long as we keep coming back as humans we will have these worms. Also fire what is called pitha is considered to be a part of a human like water and air as well or the five elements.
                              Once you cross over to the light which is absolute bliss then you realise this earth is not at all a great place or paradise but actually is hell

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                                 mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 those who have rebelled against me.-  this is true as Hindus believe one must break away from the cycle of life and death and that happens with enlightenment or  accepting-fusing with god the light. Note also anyone can become a bhramin or knower of bhrahma(god),it is not restricted to any caste as such

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                                 Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                 Mohit - that's fine, but so far all the Christians who have written on this thread have believed in their torture pit, and I'd be surprised if they would accept your version. Let's wait and see

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                                    mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                                    I  know what you are saying Paraglider but then you can see the ego of ones religion with some here they have not understood their prophet or religion.Going overboard with fanatical behaviour.

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   Shalini Kagalposted 15 years ago

   Deane - you know what would be 'Hell' for me? Not fire and brimstone but to see a child unloved and suffering and not being able to help, to see injustice and not being able to speak out, to watch while the hungry and thirsty succumbed and not allowed to help.
   
   btw, I am a Christian - there are over 25 million of us in India and I'll wager that on any Sunday there are more Christians warming the pews here in this country than in any other country in the world. I am probably one of the few who don't go - because I would want to go to a place that preached love, not the fear of fire and brimstone!

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      aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I think you may be confusing the two messages here.
      Hell(fire) is the reality awaiting ALL mankind, for we are ALL born into sin. (Romans 6:23) sin condemns us all!
      The love message is, that God sent His Son to die for (our) sin, so that we may LIVE! He became our (substitutionary)sacrificial lamb, who takes away that sin. There is NO confusion in the scriptures, only in the minds of people.(Many here on Hubpages, I might add)

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   aka-djposted 15 years ago

   PS. I am not ashamed of what I know, nor of what I don't know. I think I am honest enough to state both. The truth is, I don't have to know all things! to be saved. Just the truth!

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I knew you'd refuse to say what you believe about the worm. Everyone does   Your 'truth' condemns millions (me among them) to a pit of fire and an immortal worm that you're afraid to enlarge on. Nice truth, my friend, nice truth. But I will ask one more time. Do you think the worm will burrow through my flesh or enter via one of the bodily orifices? Because I'm pretty sure it's not just going to do a song and dance act.

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         aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Do you know the english language?
         I did not "refuse" to answer! My answer was " I don't know, and I don't care" what the worm is.
         Please address the bigger issue. Like most participants, you only see (read) what you want, not all that was posted.
         By the way, there is no "my truth" or "your truth"! Just TRUTH.

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            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Yes. I know the English language very well. Thanks for your concern. The bigger issue, for me, is that a lot of people are going around believing that the rest of us are going to be tortured eternally. The reason this concerns me is not that it might be true, because there's no there's absolutely no evidence to support it. Rather it concerns me because history has shown that when people start believing others are only fit for damnation, they often proceed to help the process along, by torture and mayhem here on Earth.

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               aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               You get NO argument from me on that point.
               I am deeply disturbed by what has been done to human beings, in the name of (Christ)! I assure you, the inspiration to do that came from the one (satan) for whom hell was created, not from God who (if you read some of my posts) sent His Son to "save" us! ! !
               The message I hold to, is, we all deserve hell, because we all fall short of God's standard of perfection. BUT, and again I stress BUT, the Gospel (Good News) message is, He died for us, (in our place). I, therefor am NOT better or more deserving than you or anyone else. I just "believed and received" the message (or more correctly, the saviour, Jesus.)

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                  Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  There's no possibility of argument anyway, because you 'know the truth' while I am content to know the limit of my knowledge and not make leaps of faith into what cannot be known.

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         DeaneMcposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         In answer to your question about the worm: I looked it up in the Bible and this is what it says.
         Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth and look upon the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, and their fire is not quenched. They will be an abhorrence to all flesh.
         ( God never intends His last word to be judgment, but this does not mean there will be some universal amnesty at the end of the world. Cause and effect will still be in force. Those who have refused to avail themselves of God's provision in Jesus Christ, who have insisted on their own ways, will face eternal judgment. The figures here are later used to describe hell. {Mark 9:43-48}
         Better to go through life and trust God even though we have hardships and trials now in order to enter the kingdom of God).

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            Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Deane - thanks for looking it up for me. It's very much as remember. It seems to me that the man who wrote that was simply looking to create the foulest image he could imagine in order to frighten his readers into obedience. It seems to me wholly unnecessary to decide to believe in such improbable and unpleasant scenarios.

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   t.keeleyposted 15 years ago

   Revelation...of hell...
   
   It fits your predtermined stigma of hell, yes. Epiphany? On something you've already imagined to exist as a burning pit of fire?
   
   Revelation occurs to someone who has NO IDEA of what it is they're being shown. In other words, if a blind guy from birth told me he saw my face and described it perfectly, colours and all, upon meeting me...that's a revelation.
   
   Otherwise you just came to an odd realisation of something you believe to exist.

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      sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I had a vision of Hell once.  Thing was it existed but it was empty! 

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         aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Nice observation! There are none in the lake of fire. This place gets filled AFTER the final judgment. There is still time to repent and avoid it.

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         t.keeleyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I am not a huge believer in visions. No offence meant there, sandra, I just don't put my stock in them.
         
         Do I believe in hell? Yes, there is something we call hell. Do I truly know anything about it? No, and to say I had a revelation based on preconceived notions I grew up with on the subject is null and void...revelations don't happen to special people. I just tend to call it "drama". Life without drama sucks, trust me, but all my epiphanies ended without much thought. They were just fun dreams without any reality connected!!!

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            sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            once again tk- joke!!!!  come on, lighten up suger! lol

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               t.keeleyposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               
               
               It's been a looooooong week....

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   Mark Knowlesposted 15 years ago

   The interesting thing as far as I am concerned is I am often accused of disrespecting religion and people's beliefs.
   
   Never does anyone stop and question just exactly how condescending it is to be told I am worthless and will burn in hell for all eternity if I don't jump on their bandwagon. And if I just opened my heart to the truth, I would understand. 
   
   Especially when I watch them acrimoniously fighting between them selves as to what their book says.

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      Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      I'm sure aka-dj has no intention of torturing anyone, but I think to allow yourself to entertain such a belief demeans the human spirit.

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      quicksandposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Oh!!! How can anyone dare to accuse YOU of disrespecting the belief ... of others?

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   knolyourselfposted 15 years ago

   "Never does anyone stop and question just exactly how condescending it is to be told I am worthless and will burn in hell for all eternity if I don't jump on their bandwagon."
   Such very bad manners.

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      aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      Don't be too upset. No-one is condescending. It's like smoking, for example.
      Everyone (should) knows that smoking causes disease, cancer and death, right? How long have there been warnings to quit or don't smoke? YET< and YET> people continue to do so! They have their "free" will to do as they like. Many suffer terribly as a result. Heed the warning, or suffer the consequences.
      You don't have to "jump on the bandwagon" if you don't want to.

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         sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         I think it is more about the way the message is conveyed.  Calling people Satan etc...not so nice because you know what it means, or what is being reflected etc.  People could just as easily preach the "good news" without the need to condemn (not that anyone could, just maybe rip thier entrails out, thanks pgrundy,lol) or make them feel bad and stuff. 
         There was obviously a better way to go about it. 

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            aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            I agree that we should just preach the good news.
            But:
            1) this thread started on the topic off hell, so I treat the subject as it is,
            2) the bad news is as real as is the good. I think it should (shock) show people what they (we) are being saved "from".
            I hate the thought of hell, but I'm not the one to make it up, nor am I alone in my understanding of it. The last thing I want to do is condemn people with (into) hell. If you read any of my posts, surely this would be evident.(I hope)!

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               sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I am sure the last thing you would ever want to do is imagine fine and good people burning in a torure pit filled with fire and brimstone to burn for ever in eternity, crying for help and getting none all because they didn't accept or appreciate the good news of Christ. 
               
               I think many people would be more inclinded to belive in Jesus if the people that followed him or professed their faith in him and the gift of ever lasting life, if that was the fruite being produced.
               
               I know you know what I am talking about, so with all these bad fruites running around saying they are from the good tree or vine or whatever, doesn't that give you any clue as to why people just downright refuse it?
               
               Mark says time and time again, I have never seen a genuine christian.  Even if a whole lot of people get upset and say, i am a genuine Christain, doesn't it seem odd to you that those people are also the same ones who promote war, who use bitter language to convey thier message (not Jesus' or God's message).  Don't you think it is a little odd that some professed genuine Christians can't seem to understand how proud they are of their right to be saved but never understand how cafeless and prideful they really are to learn anything about the things that they do themselves?
               
               It seems that if a person is so unwilling to understand anything about people or humanity or in some cases offer even an incling of compassion or empathy or understanding, then there must be something wrong with their god?
               
               Don't you think it is sorta weird that even when a comment is not addressed to any specific person regarding religion, that a whole of them band up and say how dare you attack me, or you are going to Hell for that?  Of course these are just a few examples as to why at least in my opinion, that most if not all Christians, while beleiving in God, in thier hearts seems to be the wrong one?
               
               However right or wrong or true or false the Bible may be, it is obviously for most, producing bad fruite, and when another reads and hears what is good with it, the bad fruite wants to pull it out at the root? 
               
               Isn't there a parable about the vine tangled in thorns?  Anyways, I figure you are going to say something along the lines of Jesus talked about Hell and preached Hell more than anyone etc...but do you really think the purpose of that was to convince people of it, or wouldn't it make more sense that Jesus or whomever wrote the book, used it as a weapon or tool to sort through the things in peoples hearts?
               
               Example: Some Christains say, well it is not about this life, it is about Heaven.  - I really have to take a moment on that one because, while they are up in arms raising the roof about what is to come, they let the important things in this life go to waste.  While it is being torn to peices, while people are killing, starving, building, destroying, alter and whatever else we do, they must have forgotten the message; help the poor, feed the poor, don't take too much, don't kill, treat people the same as you would also like to be treated etc, etc.
               
               Or some Christians say, it is about this life because this life determines whether or not you will go to Heaven or Hell, but the same ones, steal from the poor, don't honor their folks, they use the bible to make money so they can lead a comfortable life while some child is dying of hunger and cold somewhere, and these people couldn't offer them just a scrap, etc, etc.
               
               All the while they have become so "drunk on blood" and the principles as to why they are being saved and such, that they are too drunk to see what damage is being caused while professing the "good news".  Too drunk to see that they themselves are a major cause in a lot of problems the world has today, and yet they say but we aren't perfect, we are sinner...repent and even if the words leave their mouths, other people can see they haven't done anything at all accept exhault themselves above the rest as if their sh** don't stink because they have been saved. 
               
               While Jesus is up there shaking his head calling everyone an idiot.  He is probably even pissed off at how awfully ironic it is that the good Lord looks like the Devil.  lol.
               On a serious note, it is what it looks like to me. 
               
               Nothing againts you personally, hope you didn't take it that way.  Cheers!

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         Paragliderposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Not really a fair comparison. Smoking damages your health and may end in a nasty death. But it ends. Only a demented idiot could dream up the idea that people are to burn and be eaten forever. Because these words that some insist are the 'word of God' were most certainly first written by a man. Not a very nice man, dare I say.

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            aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            That's a matter of personal perspective.
            For me( and millions of others around the world), (Make that BILLIONS, throughtout time) who believe the Bible to be God inspired, it is  HIS WORD. Therefore, He was the one who "thought it up". I just believed it and "parroted it". For a book that claims to be "God's Word", it has consistently proven itself reliable on any test it was put to, AND has stood the test of time. It was here L O N G before you and I came along, at it will be here L O N G after we are both gone.
            Just in case you missed it (the truth about hell), here it is again. Hell was created for satan and his followers, the demons, (and anyone else who still follows him), NOT for humanity! ! !
            
            I know, I know, you will take your chances. I read that.

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               Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               Just one empirical test please.
               
               Any will do and I am a believer.
               
               And the test of time
               
               If you mean spread forcibly by conquering armies across the world?
               
               Time.
               
               The earth is 4.5 billion years old (give or take). The bible is 2,000 years old. lol
               
               A mere snippet in the great scheme of things. It will be gone in a flash, don't you worry.

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                  aka-djposted 15 years agoin reply to this

                  Psalm 14:1

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               mohitmisraposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               You do understand that Christainity is a baby compared to Hinduism ,Shamanism and the Parsee faith or the first recorded Prophet Zaratushtra.Its not something new Jesus told the world but what the sages have been talking about for eons before Jesus came on this planet.Jesus found the way to God like God knows how many before him and after him have.He is not the first enlightenend one on this planet and so is not the only way
               I think Jesus came to India or went to Greece and studied under the masters there and learned about god and enlightenment from the masters-a possibility as the Asians including the Indians and Chinese have been spiritually very evolved for a lot longer than 2000 years.

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   aka-djposted 15 years ago

   Thanks for the lengthy reply Sandra. I don't know exactly what point to respond to, other than to repeat, I wrote about hell, because the thread is about that. Yes, we all are(were) sinners. The message of Jesus is that He came to die in our place. (Our) Sin is THAT serious. The trouble with religion(s) is they minimize it, therefore, any way to god is ok. They don't need Jesus' sacrifice (so they think).
   Hell, love, peace, mercy, patience, generosity, holyness, heaven, sin, etc,etc. . . . They are all (equal) topics covered in the Bible. The "secret" if you will, is to discover the relationship they all have to each other.
   Without holyness, there is no standard for sin. Without unavoidable/inevitable judgement, there is no meaning to mercy. Without death (spiritual damnation)then salvation seems pointless.
   "Saved"? what do you mean? Saved from WHAT, or, saved FOR what? If I'm not drowning, how can I be "saved" by lifeguards? If I am not dying of heart trouble, how can an operation save me? I don't need it, (unless I am in trouble).
   To deny sin, is to deny holyness and judgement.To do that means no salvation is needed.Therefore Jesus' death was futile and without validity and power.(which it wasn't)
   The apostle Paul wrote, "that if Jesus did not rise from the dead ... we (believers) are to be pitied". And so it is, people who deny the ressurrection, pity us, as irrational, silly, etc. people.
   But the truth (there's that word again) is the He IS risen from the dead. What more remains to be said?

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   aka-djposted 15 years ago

   Seriously!
   You DON'T want evidence!
   I did not become a believer because science "proved" anything. Nor did I become one because I could see, taste, touch, (blah, blah ..) If evidence like that were needed, He would have provided it. Faith is required, but you already know that.

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      Mark Knowlesposted 15 years agoin reply to this

      In that case, why claim that the bible "stood up to any test it was put to?" if it has stood up to no tests, because faith is required.
      
      And of course I want evidence. Give me some and I believe..........

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         Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

         Good luck with this one Mark.
         
         I have come to understand that from an historical perspective religion is the most insidious form of control that was ever created to subdue mankind and mark out class structures by those in power.  It consists of multiple outs that essentially do not yield to logic and which no experiment could ever prove or disprove by definition.
         
         Example:
         If I say that Saddam Hussein never died and he secretly controls the U.S Government, you will ask for proof.  If I then say the proof is that others have seen him and reported this and that you just have to believe it and accept it without any further evidence other than my word, their word, and a letter I received from Saddam Hussein, then how could it ever be disproven?  It's a sealed argument.
         
         Similarly if I claim that Jesus rose from the dead in three days and he inhabits heaven and secretly controls the universe by being omnipresent, you will ask for proof.  If I then say the proof is that others had seen him and reported this and that you just have to believe it and accept it without any further evidence other than our word and a big letter called the Bible, how could it ever be disproven?
         
         The key to understanding the kink in the system is to use analogical reasoning Mark.  Think about it, all these arguments seal themselves off, there is no conceivable proof that could refute them.  Once you realize that, you realize how it's pointless to demand proof, because proof cannot be given.
         
         Once you realize that then you come to the understanding that what they are saying in effect is:
         
         To those who do believe, no explanation is necessary
         To those who do not believe, no explanation is possible.
         
         
         Just look at India and the caste system, then look at Hinduism.
         
         Then take a look at Pre-Enlightenment Europe and the guild and serf system.
         
         X-tianity is the most elaborate un-proveable insidious mindf*ck ever created.  Religion and religious sophistication evolves just like other things.

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            Ben Bushposted 15 years agoin reply to this

            Zarm,
            Make sure you don't equate the religious institution historically known as the Church with the Bible and those who believe it.
            
            The Bible simplifies matters when it comes to elaborate religious sophistication.
            
            The definition of "faith" from the Bible is ".....the evidence of things not seen." The Bible gives evidence of things not seen by much of the world, a certain amount of it verifiable.
            
            The Bible also says that if it states things that are not so, do not believe it or the God it purports to promote or its prophets.
            
            A rather simple, yet stringent standard, wouldn't you say?

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               sandra rinckposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               I think Zarm will have a good laugh at this because you missed it entirely, lol.    The mind fu**er part...is it genius or insane? 

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               Zarm Nefilinposted 15 years agoin reply to this

               If you can manage to avoid the power structure that is usually associated with that book and it's teachings, then I would concede that to be a far more simplified understanding of the principles at hand and I would say you are a rarity indeed.  I do find however, that much of the whole "spirituality without religion" thing that the non-denominationalists have going much of the time amounts to little more than the same power structure scaled down to one church with committees.  Not to say that is you, I don't take that to be the case.
               
               Also, sure it's more "democratic" in a sense (having one pastor in a non-denominational church), but as you and I both know believing in "God" isn't about Democracy it is about having the courage to do what is the right thing according to "God's will" even if you have ten nations stacked against you.

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    aka-djposted 15 years ago

    Mohit NOTHING you write surprises me any more. Very little makes ANY sense at all. I think you left rationality and logic at the door, when you entered the room.

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