Jesus comitted suicide by cop

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Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years ago
If Jesus knew he would die at the hands of the Romans but he still didnt shut up, then he must've been deliberately committing suicide by cop.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Impeccable logic.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I pride myself on it.
  
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  well may be he thought god would not allow him to get arrested...he was confident that he would remain free and establish what he called kingdom of god...but god had different plans , he wanted to hang jesus , make him go through pain and then as per fable bring him back to live to again take him away...WOW god loves twist in the tale
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And to top it off, none of these people see a problem with the neccessity of a barbaric blood sacrifice in order to forgive people for something they didnt do (original sin).
  
  I can forgive people without someone dying. I guess I'm more loving and forgiving then even god himself.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So after you have forgiven someone how do you prove it? How do you convince those people, a couple of million or so, that you have forgiven them?
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If I were that deity, I would put a giant sign in the air. If I were truly trying to let people know I was communicating with them, I would do my darndest... Somehow the deity of the Bible stopped doing that a long, long, long, long time ago...
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How convienant. When the earth is at its highest population, the most amount of different religions, and the ability to communicate on a global level, wouldn't it be a great time for a god to reveal itself?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  nope.
  The stage is set. Jesus is crucified and the ball is rolling.
  
  What is actually 'holding God back' is:
  Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kills the prophets, and stoned them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!
  Luke 13:35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall NOT see me, until the time come when ye shall say, "Blessed is he that comes in the name of the Lord".
  
  A purpose of Jesus was to bring the new covenant to His people, the Jews and they rejected Him, which is why He said what He said above.
  Ye shall not see me UNTIL....
  And they still have not accepted Jesus as savior, but many have and more are coming to Jesus every day. Perhaps some are leaving Jesus as well The Jewish people are important to God as he picked them from the time of their Egyptian slavery and brought them out into a harsh and wicked land which flowed with milk and honey.
  We look at revelation and we see that Jesus will appear there and be in mount zion once again. The OT makes mentions hundreds of times about how His people will be restored.
  Paul said:
  Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? (forever) God forbid: but rather through their fall (the Jews) salvation is come unto the Gentiles (everyone else and every other nation), for to provoke them (the Jews) to jealousy.
  
  So we wait and pray that the Jewish people recognize Jesus as Savior. Another reason NOT to bannish the Christian Way.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  the sign in the air just might be a man hanging on the cross. All this was done for those people back then.
  We cannot think of the events of the bible superficially. When Jesus preached to the 5,000 - there were 5,000 people there! considering the population back then this makes Billy Graham at his height look like a back alley preacher. When Jesus healed the man with a withered hand (polio) that crowd went wild! When Jesus hung on the cross the crowd attended like no other and when it got dark for the space of 3 hours while Jesus hung on the cross, the crowd was mesmerized. The water turned to wine forced his mother to have a new found respect for Him. The Hosanna incident, where he rode a mule that never was rode.. he was a master cowboy!
  Going back further.. the plagues on Egypt, the parting of the sea, the pillar of fire and cloud during the day, the felling of Jerichos walls. The list is enormous of SIGNS and wonders.
  But did the signs of the OT help the Jews battle their human natures?
  Did Jesus miracles cause the Jewish nation to accept Him unanimously? Did the miracles change the religious authorities of the time?
  
  Its all fine and dandy to think Oh if i saw a sign in the air that said:
  God loves you and wants you to pray to him for salvation by way of a formal prayer because there is a resurrection to those who die believing in Him and an afterlife that is so wonderful.
  
  Its not quite the point because we would be left where the children of israel were at, still having to deal with our human natures.
  
  What people who do not believe miss is that God is spirit and now He does things through His spirit in human beings.
  1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
  Again another pattern, another way. The law is natural and christ is spiritual.
  This is so involved i suppose it should be a hub.
  
  Suffice it to say
  we are so blessed to be involved in the new covenant and not in the Old covenant.
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  convincing is easy but writers of those days lacked imagination i suppose...simple program the brain...no need to have even jesus come to earth....no need to hang jesus and then save it...waste of time because even after doing that world remains same....
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When Jesus spoke to the 5000, how do you know the 5000 were there?
  
  Did someone pass around a sign-in sheet (and then hold on to it somewhere over the past 2000 years?
  
  If so, show me it...
  
  In my book, anyone who takes the Bible literally has some major issues. One is just as well off picking up the Iliad or the Oddessey and doing the same thing....
  
  "Verily I say unto you, this generation shall not pass till all these things are fulfilled".....
  
  20 centuries later people are still washing their brains in writings that were never intended for what they are used for today. The Jews were looking for liberation and redemption. Just as in the Maccabees, there is a hero...and he attempts to bring revolution.
  
  The Jesus story is, in my mind, no way literal (or in very little ways), and more a collection of stories intended to create enduring resistance to the subjugation and humiliation that had befallen the people of the former kingdom of Israel (which had split in two a long time before over religion).
  
  If one remembers, the northern Israelites despised the power held at the temple in Jerusalem, and what they viewed as corruption and abuse....so they split off. It is interesting how Jesus is of the north....and he goes after the temple and the priests...again showing their corruption... He turns over their money changing tables...his disciples are also of the north...
  
  There is something deeper to all this, but God has nothing to do with it... This deity is simply window dressing used to justify a further rejection of what was viewed as a flawed leadership and political subjugation at the hands of foreignors (whether they be Romans, Greeks, or anything else).
  
  I feel for those people who, so many centuries later, look to the sky for the "coming end times".... Just look in the mirror...our individual ends come soon enough... There is too little time on Earth to throw it away on the "hereafter"...
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  interesting but
  
  I will believe the accounts in the word
  
  fyi
  ALL these things... are not accomplished yet.
  Jesus was born in bethlehem in the south in judah.
  
  I feel for the people who think they are living life to the fullest and have not discovered Christ. The hereafter is not overly important, its a nice bonus and certainly makes persuasive evidence as to why people should spend their time being in the Christian Way.
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was born in Bethlehem....but his parents came from Nazareth....and he returned there with them.
  
  They were only in Bethlehem for the census. Taking the earlier analogy I used, it makes more sense that Jesus be "of the line of David" while also hailing from the north... In a sense, it was greater condemnation (in the eyes of those opposed to temple rule) of a corrupted priestly system held in low regard.
  
  On a personal note...having explored so many religious faiths...I have come to the conclusion that if I were to believe one, I'd have to believe them all... I was born and raised on "Christ"....which is why I can stand here today and call it imaginary storyland...
  
  I have not found anything that knocks one down and places another in its stead....they are all simply different faces to humanity's wonderings concerning the mysteries and conflicts of life...
  
  These stories are marvels of human imagination and creativity (as numerous other books are....like the Iliad and the story of Oddysseus' long road home to Ithaca from Troy) with some intermingling of historical events, but that is all.
  
  Again, Jesus himself said "all these things shall come to pass" within the generation that was alive then. I already quoted the verse in my previous post. Either you believe what is written or you don't. People came out after the fact (and after nothing happened..as usual) and altered what became "Christianity's" message...but that was not the intended original meaning.
  
  "Crystos".....the "Christ"....the only people to use that term were the Greeks..who added it later.. Just add this to the list of things written in to the "sacred" texts which never was originally included... The more and more time spent critically analyzing the "scriptures" and the ideas behind them, the less and less tangible/real/important they become...aside from presenting (again) the ability of humanity to create ideas/stories/social change.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  okie dokie then
  carry on
  
  and have a nice day
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  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Just glad that I know Him personally, and even happier that He knows me, and sad that you have obviously not met Him yet.
  
  Exploring the worlds religions is a wonderful thing, and meeting the worlds people is good also, especially if you are not engaged in killing them at the time, my father was exposed to the 'reality' of the world when he went off to war and he too came back unable to hold his faith, but fortunately, he regained it in his dying days.
  
  I was more fortunate to meet others without a gun in my hand, and discovered the reality of the Kingdom of God.
  
  Therefore I cannot deny that which I know to be true.
  
  You seem like a nice guy, I hope you find God amongst all those little gods that seek to divert humanity.
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So you are saying a man who could not die committed suicide? And here I thought you knew the Bible better.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I thought he did die. But then he did that Easter thing.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I gotta say AMEN to the Easter thing! Glad you brought it up!
  
  "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain." (1Corinthians 15: 14)
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Chocolate eggs are AWESOME.
  
  Of course, if you live in malta, you get chocolate chickens. Love them too.
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He did die, but not as you think He died.
  
  Here is the take. The wages of sin is death. Jesus never sin so the wages of death were not due Him. While on the cross Jesus said, Into thy hands I commend my spirit." Then He gave up the ghost.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus did sin. The bible says to follow the laws of the land. Jesus clearly did not otherwise he would not have been crucified.
  
  Which is it? Either he sinned and got crucified for sinning, or he didnt sin in which case, why did he get crucified?
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What sin did He commit?
  
  He was crucified because He spoke out against sin. In doing so he pissed off the Sanhedrin because it convicted them in their hearts.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean what sin did he commit? He didnt follow the laws of the land and respect the government. It is black and white in the bible.
  
  If he respected the government and followed the laws of the land then he wouldnt have sinned and therefor been crucified.
  
  Sometimes I wonder why I have to bother. Theists cotinually use the "our intelligence must have come from somewhere" argument but I think if so many people believe in such a nonsense book then maybe humans are not intelligent at all.
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Romans did not mind anyone preaching their gods. In fact they incorporated the gods of their victims into their own beliefs.
  
  So whose law was broken? Roman law doesn't care. Jewish law? Which law did He break? He preached God, Jehovah, love one another, the beattitudes, etc. . . He healed the sick and open blind eyes. He delivered those who were possessed by devils. Everything He did was good.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Clearly everything he did was not good otherwise he wouldnt have been crucified.
  
  You seem to be ignoring this.
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are the accuser. Be specific in what law he broke.
  
  I wonder what nation you live in. If you live in the USA, you probably already know about Watergate, but if not, you should check it out. MJust because the leaders might be angry and want to kill you does not mean you did something wrong. Leaders can become corrupt and are more likely to be so than anyone else.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He didnt respect the governing body like the bible says you should do.
  
  The governing body being the people that he pissed off in order for them to crucify him.
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is an ignorant statement. He preached the same message they preached. he followed the same laws they followed. He had a heart for following the laws when they didn't. Outwardly they followed the law but inwardly they were just as evil and they could be.
  
  You should read the Bible so you can better argue a point.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wether the romans were "evil" or not is not the point. The bible says to RESPECT THE GOVERNING BODY. The romans were that governing body and jesus didnt respect them otherwise he would have shut the hell up.
  
  Thanks for calling me ignorant though. I could call you a stupid retard for believing in a childrens fairytale but I dont.
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Call me whatever you want. It makes no difference. I don't see why you start a thread and not pay attention to what is being said. You speak like your mind is made up and you just want to argue for the sake of arguing. No amount of evidence will change it, so I will bow out of this debate.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You havent provided any evidence. My claim is that Jesus did not repect the governing body which is why they crucified him thus making him a sinner because the bible tells you to respect the governing body.
  
  You're simply denying it and not providing any evidence of anything. Feel free to bow out, you haven't provided anything anyway.
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus's actions (His claim of being the Son of God and His performing of miracles) scared the "governing body" and the Jewish people. The Jews called it blasphemy when He claimed to be God's Son. The Officials were scared that His fame would cause a revolution and they'd be ousted from their positions.
  
  You mentioned the part about the Bible saying we must respect the governing body. There are some Scriptures related to this subject. But would you mind pointing out the ones to me that specifically command that? The Bible says that God gives power to rulers, etc. And I believe there may be a passage that speaks about the laws of the land. (I'll have to look those up specifically).
  But maybe you can point out particular passages that back up your claim...?
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  Niteriterposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's...
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah. That's a good discussion-starting point.
  I'll try tomorrow if I get time.
  Too late here now; slmost 3:00 A.M...
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hippy - I think you're playing devil's advocate. For Christians, technically it's not a sin to speak against authority. All Jesus allegedly did was make the claim to be the Son of God, the Saviour. I don't know his words, but that's what pissed off the Jews. Herod was jealous and that's what got Jesus arrested in the first place. Finally, the governor? needed to appease the people and that's what put the final nail in the cross.
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So, if just before falling asleep tonight, I were to say,
  
  "Into thy hands I commend my spirit.",
  
  what would happen?
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Probably nothing, but do you have the power of God within you?
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  paradigmsearchposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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  kirstenblogposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is that sign for real?!?!
  I just love it! Consideration for the homeless, now that just warms my heart. Wish the poor souls didn't have to be homeless in the first place and at least they can be treated with a little respect and dignity.
  
  As to the OP, who cares?
  Funny premise, I grant you
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The saying of "Into thy hands I commend my spirit" is an indication of recognizing that God's in control, yes. But salvation specifically comes through recognizing Jesus's sacrifice, repenting of sins, and accepting Him as your Savior. That should be the first step. It's a heart-changing, life-giving moment, being born-again.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A(wo)men to that!
  
  The act of formal acknowledgment, by way of speaking (prayer) to God and saying whatsup with ones opinion of sin and jesus death and resurrection in an agreeing way is the surest and best way of inviting the God of heaven into ones life.
  Often there is this sensation of a weight being lifted off the indivdual and a perception of that weight taken away. This is what happened to me and I have read many other Salvation experiences that concur with my experience.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  paradigm - it would depend on whose hands you meant by 'thy hands'. IMO anything is possible. If you were to commend your spirit into the hands of the tree huggers, and you believed you wanted to be there, well, your future might well revolve around that.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He didnt die? So what did he sacrifice?
  
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  Virgil Newsomeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/87418#post1872425
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Its not a sacrifice as in: This means so much to me and is so very important that it hurts for me to give it up.
  Its a sacrifice as in: an offering in homage
  
  The point is not that God died but rather that the body died. Jesus could have hung on the cross until today, but then there would have been no resurrection. There can be no resurrection without the death of a body and without the sacrifice on the cross a new covenant would not have begun.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Woah woah woah. Jesus is god according to the trinity. You're telling me that the new covenant between man and god could not possibly have been established without god killing himself?
  
  Dont be so blind. God can do anything. Didnt he speak to moses? Why didnt he just speak to someone and create a new covenant?
  
  Anyway, why did he eve need a new covenant? Where his old rules not good enough? I though he knew everything? He should have known ahead of time exaclty what laws would be best.
  
  Such utter nonsense and it saddens me to see so called intelligent humans believing such nonsense that they cannot even expain without coming out with more and more nonsense.
  
  Everything you say seems to raise at least 3 new questions. Have you ever heard of Occams razor?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Woah woah woah. Jesus is god. You're telling me that the new covenant between man and god could not possibly have been established without god killing himself?
  
  Yes, there has always been covenant occurances with the shedding of blood, this is how serious this whole thing is. There is life in the blood and blood must be shed. This is just not some walk in the park or flippant irrelevancy, its important, and there is so much other important and good stuff that happened by Jesus; healings, teachings, the resurrection, the impact on society, the empty tomb - all this accomplished by God taking residence in a body. Lets not forget that Jesus had to be sinless to be this sacrificial lamb and God was not gonna let that obligation fall on just anyone. He took matters into his own hand to ensure this one shot deal would go down correctly. None of this could have been accomplished another way.
  
  Dont be so blind.
  yawn
  
  God can do anything. Didnt he speak to moses? Why didnt he just speak to someone and create a new covenant?
  
  He did, he spoke to Jesus, isn't this someone enough for you? The question is NOT what COULD God do, the question is what DID God do and God did all the gospels say he did. So in essence God did speak to someone and now to you, isn't this enough for you?
  
  Anyway, why did he even need a new covenant? Where his old rules not good enough? I though he knew everything? He should have known ahead of time exactly what laws would be best.
  
  And he did know; this is why there are types and shadows all throughout the OT of Christ, his mission and his death. God totally knew. He gave the laws to govern, protect and prosper them. They made the rules their god and forgot what God really wanted - truth in the inward parts. So did the law work? Not really this is why the new covenant. Ya don't start off with the spiritual first, God needs to clean up the physical first or the natural (man) first and then the spirit next. The law is the natural or physical and then the spiritual which is Christ. There a huge depth in this but your just running on emotion right now.
  
  Such utter nonsense and it saddens me to see so called intelligent humans believing such nonsense that they cannot even explain without coming out with more and more nonsense.
  
  Thats cuz you are a 1/4 wit with no understanding. Don't blame us if you can't grasp what is going on. Find a forum you have at least some understanding about and stop wasting our time with your nonsense.
  
  Everything you say seems to raise at least 3 new questions. Have you ever heard of Occams razor?
  
  boring. Listen if you don't want to believe then don't. You can use this razor analogy or go to the 2nd law of thermodynamics evolution if you want, you can quote stephen hawkins all you want and you can jump up and down and deny that supernatural events cannot happen.
  None of that applies in the light of what God is doing through Jesus Christ.
  Good luck with that
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Bold text and name calling. The non thinking person's sixth man.
  Very unchristian.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  not really, I held back.......................... and kept it civil
  If you think Christians are just door mats then you haven't met me yet
  The bold text is for easier reading: as you noticed my responses are in bold and the portions that i am replying to are not emphasized, sometimes i do use italics. I think its good to be clear and i don't mind going the extra mile even when not asked - now that's Christian.
  
  Honesty is just, well, honest. If i think the guys a 1/4 wit, well might as well tell him in the hopes it will do more good than damage.
  
  Thank you for replying, although i do believe you wasted some room on the server but whatever makes you happier
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You think the world is 6000 years old and have the audacity to call someone else a quarter wit.?
  
  E= mc^2 is brilliant, Newton was brilliant
  
  Shakespeare and Pope, brilliant.
  
  It's becoming exceedingly self evident that you can't realize brilliance.
  
  They way you conduct yourself and attack people who disagree with you shows not only a lack of university schooling but probably high school as well.
  
  And they way you emailed that woman was creeper status.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Walden, your beliefs if I may ask?
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Deist. No one religion can be right. But they share to much in common to be totally wrong.
  Since science can't prove how life actually began, I'm open to any hypothesis. But I don't question proven science, and I don't take books written in the bronze age as law.
  It may be ego but I can't fully believe me, you, and everyone else is here by accident.
  I also do not believe Anyone intervenes in our lives.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting.
  
  So who are yous studing now?
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I like to listen to everyone's opinions and try to open myself to new ideas but everyone seems so extreme in their beliefs in turns into a shouting match of the same old stuff.
  
  I'm really interested in how it all began. Like ok we have the big bang, but where did all that mass come from?
  
  Im taking world religions next semester so I look forward to that.
  
  Thank you for asking.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am a full on believer in Christ yet study all I can. Ask questions that often look like I am contradicting my own beliefs and even argue contrary points to my own beliefs sometimes. I'm a complicated pirate.
  
  I've looked into the big bang thing and the questions that no one can answer for me are if our universe is expanding as Mr. Hubble himself observed, how exactly did the universe start expanding when it so clearly means that at some point all these celestial bodies were much closer to each other then they are now, meaning that the oh so delicate tangential velocity theory is ridiculous because things moving a bit faster or a bit slower throws off the whole orbit of planets. With constant pulls from other planets, asteroids, comets, suns and moons I have a hard time believing that anything could survive that.
  
  Besides that, what example can be given that an explosion gave birth to more order than chaos?
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you that when you start going back to the creation of the universe science doesn't really have a good answer.
  I think there's a lot we don't know still and I hope to live long enough to see some answers.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  God is staking everything He is on 1 Way being right.
  
  His Son on the cross, the body of Jesus offered for atonement. His resurrection. His teachings. The body of the OT and the words His prophets spoke.
  
  If anyone does not think this stuff is important enough corroboration that there is only 1 Way, well, that's mind numbing.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  in your rage to stomp around you totally missed all the good stuff in that post.
  Yes your examples show brilliance and the fact you showed more than one example of brilliance shows there are more than one example of brilliance and one of those acts of brilliance includes Gods salvation plan, which, from a Christian point of view is brilliant.
  
  What you construed as an attack i assume concerns what i said to you about wasting space on the server, however, you shot the first arrow which i thought really ought not to be shot at all. My intention was to point out to you just because someone says something that doesn't come attached with roses doesn't make it unchristian. Why i said it was because you needed to learn that christians are not door mats, we have zeal, we feel, we eat and my response to that other individual was based over many of his posts - not just the one.
  
  As to the email, I do not believe her profile has always said married because neither have i ever (before conversion and certainly not after) gone after married women. The email was not even a come-on. I said she had a good head on her shoulders and keep up the good work and this was said at the time of my recent conversion when i thought her ideas had some credibility. Yummy was probably a bad choice of words and granted I would change that today, but not unheard of. So two things positive, one dubious and no follow-ups.. i think you stretch it when you made your opinion, but, make opinions you will as has been noted, most of which i disagree with.
  
  As per the email again. This is another wonderful aspect of God that when Christians make mistakes, God does not chuck them away, in some miraculous and supernatural way He continues His work in them and in time, down the road or along The Way, they change. Foul committed but God doesn't slam down the gavel and punish. I was even unaware of this 'transgressions' impact and thank God that today I can see yet another change that has occurred in me and The Way is often like this, we don't see the change until we look back and notice how our actions are different today than back then. Its nice to know that God works in gentle loving ways.
  
  I agree that the science creation theory is not a good answer, but i have my answer. Do i think the earth is 6,000 yrs old... well, i am still open on that one, mainly because i see some time gaps in Genesis 1 that could possibly exist but i also understand there is evidence for a short earth history also. Neither is overly important too me. I may never have all the answers to everything. Is this the first earth God created? I may never know.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Rage, lol, I only laughed when I read that post.
  Try to deflect your bold text, caps lock anger rage post to me. I don't care.
  You stooped to ad hominem attacks when you weren't winning an argument.
  The above posts show that. Anyone who can comprehend English can see it.
  
  In all seriousness, the rest of your post is good. When you articulate your beliefs like that it's much easier for someone to understand what you believe instead of using a scripture.
  
  Anyways, best of luck to you in all you pursue.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I like scripture
  
  ive never added a hominem! to anything. lol
  
  I thought you were mad at me and i thought that anger reflected in your post and i don't mind tellin people what i think is going on. I can always be corrected - not doctrinally cuz i am pretty careful about that and would rather stand 10 steps back on the line of safety than 5 steps back, but i am not perfect either and my life is quite difficult - bein a christian doesn't make it any easier (didn't read that in the small print lol) but its a happier life with more meaning and definitely keeps me interested.
  
  I get angry when people don't get whats being said and they just say the same thing again. There are some good representatives of God in here and each has credible things to say and glad i am to read and hear about other peoples faithfulness. I always appreciate good questions.
  Sometimes I give back what i get, i think that's only fair and quite christian .
  
  There is good stuff going on in here and I'm glad to be a part of it.
  Good to meet ya
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I always find it amazing how two humans can see the same thing but don't see the same thing at all.
  It's a frustrating curse and wonderful trait.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  agreed
  There are, of course many reasons for that.
  
  It has always been the humans most obedient to God that get the truth and get to do wonderful things.
  
  The semi obedient wander into the wilderness until they become obedient - if they ever do.
  
  And the disobedient, stumble along with wrong doctrines, wrong motives and eat the crumbs off the masters table, if God can find some redeeming quality within them.
  
  non believers, of course, don't understand most, if any of what is being said, but God goads them anyways.
  
  and ex christians have their agendas and comments and opinions which are very much bias, even prejudice.
  
  Atheists, of course, are the silly programming of stupider peoples websites
  
  And yet obedience comes from relationship with God, being birthed into the kingdom via Jesus Christ, of course one can always force themselves into obeying a list of things to do, but I found that created bitter christians who did not last - legalism doesn't promote relationship or love and loving God is paramount.
  I did a whole lot of study about the names of God and i ended up figuring jesus (as translated in the english bible) is good enough. The actual name of God was forgotten. Jesus showed the pattern - pray to God - and father is just wonderful too but its a title not a name meaning this is how we are to perceive God.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "blood must be shed"
  
  You're sick.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You think that in order for your fantastic LOVING god, BLOOD MUST BE SHED? You are sick and you worship a sick bastard. It's not even the blood of the person who sinned. What the hell? Would you forgive me for something I didnt do if some stranger killed himself for you? That is the most perversed and illogical thing I have ever heard.
  
  I thought Jesus was god? You mean he spoke to himself? What the hell are you talking about? And god didnt speak to me. I dont hear voices in my head.
  
  I can assure you I'm not running on any emotion. So you say that your ALL POWERFUL god who created the entire universe and everything in it couldnt make some laws that worked or people that could follow these laws? Give me a break. He sounds like an idiot that cant make anything work how he wants it to so he has to keep changing it and trying again.
  
  I thought he knew ahead of time what would happen and he STILL did it wrong? What a total loser.
  
  Thanks for the insult based on what? Im a 1/4? Anyway..... I dont blame you for anything. You clearly cannot help it. I know exaclty what is going on. Thats the problem. What nonsense have I brought to the table may I ask? You're the one talking about a invisible being that you cant even demonstrate to exist.
  
  Belief is not a choice, stop talking nonsense. Can you believe in santa if you wanted to?
  
  Second law of thermodynamics evolution? What the hell is that? When did I quote Stephen Hawkings? Who is jumping? You cant even demonstrate supernatural events to exist.
  
  You cant demonstrate anything that you claim to be true and you say I am talking nonsense? Give me a break. I have met saner people than you living in a mental home.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well if you just can't understand it, then thats that.
  Perhaps i should mention that the animals were also dinner. Nothing is wasted in Gods systems.
  
  have a nice day
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean I cant understand it? I explained every single detail completely.
  
  You seem to be living in a fantasy world and believing whatever you want.
  
  You cannot justify the requirement of a blood sacrifice even if the animal is used afterwards.
  
  Any being requiring a blood sacrifice to pay for someone elses sins is illogical.
  
  I asked you a few questions you didnt even bother to address any of them.
  
  You simply return with your unfounded claim that I dont understand.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I did not answer your questions because you cannot understand I do not even think you want to understand.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a hippy wrote:
  
  "Would you forgive me for something I didnt do if some stranger killed himself for you?"
  
  You didnt answer that question.
  
  I thought Jesus was god? You mean he spoke to himself?
  
  You didnt answer that question.
  
  So you say that your ALL POWERFUL god who created the entire universe and everything in it couldnt make some laws that worked or people that could follow these laws?
  
  You didnt answer that question.
  
  What nonsense have I brought to the table may I ask?
  
  You didnt answer that question.
  
  Can you believe in santa if you wanted to?
  
  You didnt answer that question.
  
  Second law of thermodynamics evolution? What the hell is that?
  
  When did I quote Stephen Hawkings?
  
  Maybe you are too ignorant to understand or maybe you just dont understand basic English.
  
  What is so fantastically complicated about all the nonsense that you have spouted WITHOUT EVIDENCE?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  1) you don't get it
  2) you don't get it
  3)you don't get it
  4)read your own posts
  5)no
  6)do a websearch
  7)you didn't i just said you could and you might have at some point in time that i was not privy to.
  8)that is almost what i said about you
  9)the evidence has stared you in the face, but you don't get it.
  
  Sorry but on this topic i am opting out.
  you just do not get it maybe because you don't have the background to get it or you just don't want to.
  either way
  this is ended
  have a nice day
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  pisean282311posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  @jesus was happy how can some one who is said to be god , get hanged knowing well that he wont die , come back and call it sacrifice????????....that was show not sacrifice...ordinary human being knowing well that he/she would die with no one to raise them back and still risking their lives for sake of others , is sacrifice...
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  the body was the sacrifice not God.
  it takes some thought to figure it out but its not rocket science.
  
  The scriptures say that Jesus would pour his life out upon the cross, which he did - the life being that of the flesh and blood body. The fact that God did not die is irrelevant, the body was what was needed to be the sacrificed object.
  
  Again, its not sacrifice in giving something vastly important away its sacrifice in paying homage, offering.
  Animals were sacrificed but not because they were vastly important or even costly they were flesh and blood. The same with Jesus body, it was flesh and blood and therefore qualified to be sacrificed.
  
  Jesus knowing there would be resurrection was yet another brilliant part of Gods plan. A resurrected Christ after being publicly executed and buried in a tomb, plus, there is the empty tomb. Sure the tomb is disputed but to the people in jerusalem back then, the empty tomb was something the romans had to deal with by concocting a story that his disciples had stolen him in the night - back then the empty tomb was not in dispute, it was fact, especially to the women and disciples who went to the tomb and found it empty.
  
  The whole Plan of God is Brilliant and if you can wrap your head around it, it'll blow your mind in so many ways.
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  His ability to enjoy "quality time" with the fairer sex....
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Don't you remember he had kids with that Mary Magdelene woman.
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  True...especially if you have read "The Last Temptation of Christ". That is an amazing book, by the way.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus never had kids with mary magdelene.
  this is why i tell people NOT to out source from the bible until they know first what is going on inside the bible.
  
  Jesus never had a lifestyle that endorsed marriage. He traveled constantly, was never at home, never had a job, never settled down in any one place. He was always busy with the needs of so many people that marriage was not an option Jesus was even interested in. Jesus was all about His fathers work and helping around the house while the babies were growing up was not part of the fathers work.
  Sure you can weasel some unfounded aspect in there somewhere and say 'oh yah jesus and mary sittin in a tree, k i s s i n g.. but really when we read the life and purpose of Jesus and we get to know what the crux of the matters were that He was all about, we soon realize that Jesus was indeed God in the flesh.
  I have no doubts he was a babe magnet, but i also have no doubts this aspect of treating women like they were women did not happen. Jesus treated male and female the same, as human beings in need of redemption.
  I read the scarlet rose which is all about this supposed marriage and on so many levels the book purports just plain crap.
  Sorry, thats just my, opinion, when confronted with obvious garbage.
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  proj-assistantposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey dude, I don't mean to be rude of anything but i was just wondering if God want us to be Good People and Nearly Perfect why did he made the "Tree of Knowledge"? It is where we got the idea between right and wrong... Right? So why didn't he create us and not create the "Tree of Knowledge" for us to remain naive..?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guarantee you will get the answer "because god wanted us to have free will".
  
  Of course, that argument simply leads to the "why couldnt god make good people that didnt want to do wrong?"
  
  which invokes the response "because god wanted us to have free will and not be robots"
  
  which leads to "so am I a robot because I like chocolate and dont like arsenic which makes me want to eat chocolate and not eat arsenic?"
  
  which invariably gets the response "you can choose to eat arsenic if you want because you have free will".
  
  Trust me dude, its not an argument worth having. You wont get anywhere.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  omg that was awesome!!!
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  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Agreed
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  As far as I can tell from the readings, he was a jealous god. There was nothing to be jealous of before he created humans but the test was so he could determine if they would obey and love him. Jealousy must have developed simultaneously with the creation of humans since we are allegedly made in his image and LIKENESS.
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Keeping in mind the message of God was delivered by man. Which means it could have been largely tainted by the parameters of perception of the writer.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  the tree of knowledge if thought of as a literal tree becomes a stumbling block to understand. Knowledge is the focal point of mans ability. We can do good things and bad things. The way we think separates us from the animals. Genesis was probably the hardest book to translate. The serpent is definitely our human nature and the tree of knowledge is something that could not be avoided - hence the term, in the midst of the garden, again, because of the way we were created and how we think. Trees are symbolic of many things in the bible. I prefer to think of the 'tree' as a 'path' of knowledge.
  
  Free will has nothing to do with the choices we make daily. I am not exercising free will if i decide to wear sneakers or boots today. I am not using free will to decide what color table cloth to buy for the dining table. These are just common everyday choices that are not a part of free will. We were not created with free will, we were created with the ability to reason, rationalize and ultimately to choose things and functions with which to live our lives. Free will is just somebodies colloquialism. A term for our ability to choose. If free will is to be considered a valid term, there is only one free will choice that God is interested in and that is whether we choose Him or not.
  
  hope that helped
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'd like to ask you, do you think there is some confusion that exists today over what might be a parable, allusion, or allegory in the bible?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks
  I don't think when people read the parables of the NT that they line the parable up with scriptural truths. Some parables have been used to make new doctrine and ya can't just read a parable and make up new stuff.
  
  "Two in the field, one shall be taken and the other one left" and the conclusion here is "oh the rapture". hmmmm.
  
  "Lazarus in hell opened his eyes". Well since all are sleeping until the resurrection is this not now become a resurrection parable?
  
  The bible is not easy to interpret and i think it is intentionally that way.
  Seek ye first the kingdom of God, knock and it shall be opened.. God wants us to be sincere in our efforts to know Him; hard work, hard study, fervent prayer meets that requirement.
  
  We have to be careful. False doctrines crept into the Early Church and corrupted that movement, albeit, 500 yrs later. God is something that everyone has to make time for.
  
  Love the Lord thy God with all your heart, soul and mind
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My wife and children were all talking about this last night actually. Good point, I think Jesus also spoke like this. I heard a preacher once say that he didn't like listening to billy grahm because he was alittle too blunt. Jesus always answered a question with a question for a reason. He want you to think and use the brain he gave you.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a smart person. The idea that any preacher has any answer is not the best way to lead since it's likely an interpretation.
  
  Can you (brotheryo) clarify your comment on 'two in the field'? What, IYO, is this a reference to if not the rapture?
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus was a smart person. The idea that any preacher has any answer is not the best way to lead since it's likely an interpretation.
  
  Can you (brotheryo) clarify your comment on 'two in the field'? What, IYO, is this a reference to if not the rapture?
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  the two in the field is not rapture.
  
  first of all, who was taken?
  "As it was in the day of noah"... well we know the wicked were taken of the flood.
  
  Second, who is jesus speaking to and why.
  An opening question is about the end of the age. When will these things be. Jesus goes on to tell about the tribulation and his second return, which we know begins the millennial kingdom. An earlier parable describes a sower who went out to sow ... Jesus said, "let the wheat and tares grow together then GATHER the TARES to be burnt.
  
  When the millennial kingdom starts there will be people who are alive, obviously, and in the exact place they need to be, jerusalem. The wicked will be taken to be judged and burnt (probably the lake of fire) while the righteous in Gods sight will begin their life and benefit from, the millennial kingdom reign of Christ.
  
  The last lines:
  Luke 17:37 And they answered and said unto him, WHERE, Lord? (where will they be taken) And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.
  
  Eagles is a special bird in that it soars and is majestic like no other and it also eats raw flesh. Two aspects, divinity and judgment. So they will be taken to a place of death.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting take. I have never thought about it like that.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is another thread that shows off your childish ignorance.
  
  It truly proves that a little bit of knowledge is dangerous.
  
  I suppose you know all about the Jewish Religious system of sacrifice, sin offering, atonement, blood covenant, and of course, prophecy!
  
  I notice you still haven't answered the question, "which law did He break, that made Him a sinner?"
  Generalisations won't do. After all, every one of us would be in jail if your generalisation were applied to us.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually it shows off my sense of humour. Your response shows what type of character you have when you read a joke and insult the author because you dont like what you read.
  
  Im not the one claiming to know that any gods exist. I think you are confused as to what knowledge is.
  
  I dont claim to know everything, ever, I do know that the Jewish religious system has some crazy superstitions like swinging live chickens around your head before killing and eating them and that blood sacrifice is barbaric and uneccessary, original sin is nonsense and the prophecies in the bible are so vague they could mean anything.
  
  Actually I did. He didnt respect the governing body of the land. You seem to have ignored that.
  
  Well that just doesnt make any sense.
  
  Anyway, I dug up something written by a muslim no less who illustrates quite succinctly some of the laws that jesus broke. Have fun reading.
  
  http://www.answering-christianity.com/a … he_law.htm
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  Brenda Durhamposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Interesting. But a bit skewed, I think. I don't have time to go into it all right now, but it would make for good debate as some of that's de-bunked and at least explained as to how the author's got the wrong impression about Biblical passages.
  
  I'm sure all this will finally lead to one major Scripture. Acts 5: 29.
  You might dig that one up and the surrounding verses! Will you have fun reading those? I don't think so! Because they illustrate what's right to do when man's laws conflict with God's laws.
  
  "Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, 'We ought to obey God rather than men'."
  
  Peter isn't sanctioning a pattern of civil disobedience. We should be aware of and try to obey civil government. But when man's laws go contrary to the explicit commands of God, we must obey God and be ready to suffer the consequences. Or, in this day and age, in America at least, we have the opportunity (sometimes) to rectify man's laws so that they do line up with God's laws. Liberals have changed laws so that they're beginning to totally contradict God's laws. Christians will have to continue to fight legally and civilly to revert some of those laws back to sanctionable status.
  
  Jesus had the same attitude about the difference between man's laws and God's laws. After all, Jesus WAS God in the flesh. He was the both the author and the judge of the Law!
  Maybe that's what ticks the liberals off so badly, just as it ticked-off the people who later cried "crucify Him"!!
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ""Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, 'We ought to obey God rather than men'.""
  
  I find it rather amusing that your counter to my point was to point out a contradiction in the bible.
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  couturepopcafeposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How so?
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  proj-assistantposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  all of us would be in jail!? . . .then someones gotta make a reeeeeel big cell for the world to fit in!
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  aguasilverposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus died over 2000 years ago.
  Nobody has ever referred to him as the late Jesus,
  Not even the heathens.
  Nowhere in history.
  Nowhere has He EVER been referred to in the past tense!
  He is the Living God!
  When Jesus died on the cross He was thinking of you!
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The "heathens" didn't mention Jesus at all until they were converted...typically by force.
  
  Look at how much pressure the Catholic Church had to put on Clovis to convince him (and therefore his kingdom) to submit.
  
  Zeus was heard of long before Jesus....and he's still around..in movies...in our schools...
  
  There was never any recording of any Jesus outside of the new testament itself...and of it, much of it was written many, many, many years later, and sometimes by people who are building their own power bases (say Saul/Paul for one).
  
  Josephus never spoke of Jesus.....he is historically non-existant...and emerging from a group of people who were constantly seeking a new champion....
  
  Again, Jesus said the end would come in "their lifetimes".....and it didn't...
  
  It only comes when you disappear from this planet.....
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The "heathens" didn't mention Jesus at all
  
  Everyone was talking about Jesus. There is mention in secular books about the movement that Jesus caused. His empty tomb, his resurrection, things were so crazy about Jesus Nero had to blame Rome burning on them. There was so much kerfuffle that:
  Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
  
  until they were converted...typically by force.
  
  The Early Church converted no one by force and that is the only church that matters.
  
  Look at how much pressure the Catholic Church had to put on Clovis to convince him (and therefore his kingdom) to submit.
  
  Yes well, that is the catholics, part pagan, part myths, a small part bible.
  
  Zeus was heard of long before Jesus....and he's still around..in movies...in our schools...
  
  Yes werewolves and frankenstein too. Your point?
  
  There was never any recording of any Jesus outside of the new testament itself
  
  There are many who mention Jesus, christianity and look at all the books there are today!
  
  ...and of it, much of it was written many, many, many years later
  
  Nope there is documentation from a soon as 17 yrs and creeds from 3yrs. Compared to other historic people who biographies are written 600 - 1000 yrs later, the NT is like a new flash.
  
  , and sometimes by people who are building their own power bases (say Saul/Paul for one).
  
  rubbish
  
  Josephus never spoke of Jesus.....
  
  this has already been revealed. He did and he mentioned the christian movement too.
  
  he is historically non-existant...
  
  for someone non-existent there sure a lot of books about this person who never existed. And dare i say, they have many many more qualifications and certifications and experience than you, me or all of hubpages put together. But i suppose you are right (sarcasm)
  
  and emerging from a group of people who were constantly seeking a new champion....
  
  interesting. Another point of embarrassing but persuasive evidence. Jesus was not what they expected, yet he fulfilled prophecies, produced miracles almost non stop. Pointed the way to God and by pouring out his life, ushered in a new testament as the Son of God in whom the Father is well pleased as the voice boomed when Jesus got baptized.
  
  Again, Jesus said the end would come in "their lifetimes".....and it didn't...
  
  No he did not say that
  
  It only comes when you disappear from this planet.
  
  It only starts when the resurrection happens
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So much for "okie dokie then"?
  
  I haven't seen any evidence of Frankenstein going back 2000 years.....let me know when you have the research on that.
  
  The "early church"? Which one is that?
  
  Are you talking about the most original "Christians" who believed that one had to first be Jewish in order to be part of the sect?
  
  If not, to whom are you referring? St. Perpetua?
  
  In terms of the later Roman church that coalesced in the latter days of Rome, this figure of Jesus, the revolutionary-anti-human authority status quo mentality found in this figure was able to fill a niche. Many of Jesus' characteristics were also similar to other known deities and secret but popular underground cults..
  
  If Christianity had not been the vehicle through which the Roman elite found survival, then it would have been forgotten as the Germannics swept in from the north and west.
  
  I don't care about all the books today. You have evidently deliberatly attempted to tangent my argument. As for writings coming out of the early Catholic Church..who was writing them? What about all the other forms of Christianity that had very alternative ideas about his identity? What about those who only saw him as an important person, and not a god, or son of a god? How many inquisitions then took place since? Let us look at the Roman Catholic Church's attempts to steal the Armenian Orthodox Church of its authority, shall we? Are you familiar with this common, but commonly untold type of story?
  
  If we are going to agree with your claim that the first texts appeared 17 years after the event, you have already pointed something out...plenty of time to make stuff up with no way for anyone else contrary to do anything about it... Such a miraculous and important event...that after the flaming tongues event it would take 17 years to write something down?
  
  What is wrong with this picture?
  
  You would then have to point to which specific thing was being written... The Gospel of Matthew is far different from the others, and shows a unique slant/perspective reflecting a specifically Jewish audience.. This is the only testimony that compares Jesus to Moses...travelling to Egypt to escape slaugher (as Pharoah did way back before then), and coming out of Egypt as the Hebrews from bondage..and there are other comparisons..
  
  Then we have to look at the volumes of writing going on all around this region... Egypt..Rome...the Greeks....all absent until much, much later... People had to forge Jesus into Josephus just to try to make him appear..
  
  Why would one have to do that?
  
  You can disagree with my perspective regarding Jesus and the temperment of the Levant up and through the first century c.e., but I have all the evidence on my side to back it up. The Bible itself, Old and New Testaments make my case.. Of course, it is convenient that the King James version, and those who have followed off it, have left out important books of the Old Testament that the Septugint contains.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're claiming that Jesus didn't exist at all? I just want to be clear with a yes or no answer, I'm not as smart as all of you with the long threads and such.
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am definitely open to the idea(s) that:
  
  1) Jesus did not exist
  
  2) Jesus' persona/character was hijacked by many (starting with Jewish) anti-authority sects. Each of them (early Christian groups) have very different views on who this man was and what he represented.
  
  It's taken 2000 years of, often times, brutality amongst sects (for example looking at the Roman Church and its relationship with other churches, like the Armenian Church, or the Roman Church and the Greek Church) to come up with the mirage that there is some kind of uniformity of beliefs...
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  An open mind is a crucial part of being a great human being.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So long as one is open to be taught by the persuasive evidence and not just looking for information that one agrees with.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  now ill go okie dokie
  
  If you don't know about the Early Church then you have a huge gap in your information.
  
  Your ideas of jesus are completely not of the bible, psychology or socially correct and again laden with your opinions.
  
  The roman elite finding survival through christianity is the biggest chuckle I've had today. Again your opinion. Although you may find someone else who agrees with you it will not give such laudable speculation any credibility.
  
  as you do not care about those books today, I do not care about the other forms of christianity that had alternative ideas and lets not look at anything, anything that roman catholic church ever did - a pagan saturated belief system if ever there was one.
  
  17 yrs is not enough time, sorry. Within 17 yrs people who disagreed would speak up. Many of these people would still be alive within 17 and would act as 'correctives' and there would be contradicting evidence by them, but there is not. Typically in history legendary material does not appear until centurieS after. The NT is historical documentation not a fantasy tale or random jargon.
  17 yrs is a news flash to an oral society. Alexander the great, whom we read as factual was written 400yrs after his death. Buddhas texts, 1000 yrs after his death.
  
  at this point i will just say that instead of debating with you I would like to consider that before you run around with your 1/2 informed and manufactured ideas, you just read and listen and get more information that is correct. I am sure you can find it.
  
  have a nice day
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying that the Roman elite did not find refuge in the Catholic Church? How did the Church become the largest landowner in Europe? Wealthy Romans would send unmarried family members into the clergy, and it would be them who controlled the church itself...
  
  Look at the contacts now Roman Catholic "missionaries" made with Germannic newcomers and look at the laws that were created... Roman's used the church to protect their status...which is why Romans are written into Germannic laws seperately, having different wergelds (blood money prices) if harmed, and such.
  
  If you are not familiar with anything I have just said, read up... You are missing out on a universe of perspective.
  
  You have failed to address anything concerning the numerous, very much varied "early churches" (for there was not only "one"...and the "on" to which you refer is not as "early" as you'd like to make it appear)....and their multitudinous view of "Jesus"...ranging from inspired, but mortal and not related to deity Jesus to the Greek inspired "Krystos" (son of god...a title typical of the Greeks...for there are many sons and daughters of Zeus and other deities...)
  
  Evidence....cultural terms and ideas each leaving a unique imprint of what Jesus means....many of these differences unable to be glossed over...creating indellible rifts between different churches....often causing crisis and crusades by those who see themselves superior to others of differing view...evidence and proof of the undivine aspects of this bible book....
  
  You don't have to agree with me Yochanan...I am not here to convince you of anything. However, the information that you agree with is not at all pursuasive..
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  pennyofheavenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps he viewed dying differently to how the majority did?
  
  We all know we age and eventually die. Does that stop us from living?
  Are we committing suicide by the mere act of living?
  
  How does one avoid the inevitable?
  
  Everything we think and do to ourselves will either prolong or shorten our lives. Some we know of some we don't.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I like the questions you are posing. The logic is sound, I will think about this.
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DoubleScorpionposted 12 years ago
Matthew 23:1-3 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority. They keep watch over you as men who must give an account. Obey them so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no advantage to you.
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LookingForWaldenposted 12 years ago
How can Jesus be the only way to heaven if billions of people have never heard of him? Effectively damning the to hell for what?

How can the earth be 6000 years old if it's been proven to be billions of years old?

How could we have coexisted with dinosaurs?
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Jesus is a venacular that has nothing to do with salvation. Most Christians, dyed in the wool, through and through Christ believing christians use the name Jesus. The entire first century church didn't use the name Jesus. If I am correct in something I learned recently Jesus is actually a translation that came into the bible around 300 or 400 years ago.
  
  I have never read anywhere that states the earth is only 6000 years old. In fact the story of creation starts off with God hovering over the waters of the deep. That tells me the earth was already here, flooded in his style, but here. If you look into the gap theory it supports a old, old earth.
  
  You live with dinosaurs. Crocodiles, snakes, sharks. All dinosaurs.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The timeline of the bible adds up to 6000 years. Religious people came up with that number and defend that number.
  Obviously you know what I mean by dinosaur.
  No crocs, snakes, sharks are not Dino's.
  
  Birds , however, are relatives of dinosaurs. Of course you would have to buy into that interspecies evolution nonsense.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most religious people live by a black and white law with no room for grace. They give love a bad name Anyway, there is no way to measure the age of the earth. Not through the bible or science. I would have to guess that it's older than 6000 years though.
  
  Me being a man of a bronze age written book though, I do believe man i only 6000 years in exsistance. As far as dinosaurs, I think their cool. There were here certainly, do I have all the answer absolutly not But I will look into that and get back to you another time.
  
  Can I pick your brain on exactly were it is that the evidence shows that birds are relatives of dinosaurs?
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They have recently, as in the past five years through this year, made unprecedented fossil finds in china and the us. They have found dinosaurs completely covered in feathers, and new hybrid species.
  They know more about how they died and how they lived then they ever died before.
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, no...
  
  Dinosaurs, aside from those flying or swimming) are specifically creatures who, unlike the lizards we see today, walk straight-legged... Compare the alligator/crocodile/common lizard pictures to those of dinosaurs...look at how the front legs (the shoulders actually) leave their bodies and meet with the elbows. Unlike lizards, many dinosaurs were warm-blooded as well.
  
  There are clearly no dinosaurs living today, unless we count those who evolved into birds.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Careful with the e word around here. Lots of folks think its a dirty word.
  Even though it's now been proven birds came from dinosaurs.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You believe in evolution?
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mr. Mikelong "Since the internal mechanisms of extinct creatures are unknowable, most discussion focuses on homeothermy and tachymetabolism."
  
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology_of_dinosaurs
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LookingForWaldenposted 12 years ago
Here's one quick one from a news outlet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13342029/ns … s3IG_F5mSM

Let me look through some stuff of mine and I can get you some better links tomorrow.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This actually says
  
  "one of the fossils even has skin preserved between the toes, showing that it had webbed feet."
  
  Then jumps a line and says
  
  “A world lost for more than 100 million years was being revealed to us,”
  
  You're telling me you believe skin can survive more than 100 million years? That doesn't even begin to make sense.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I haven't read the report but there is always the possibility it was encased in ice. A bit of a long shot for 100 million years though.
  
  I like the part about it tasting like chicken.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lmao
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Rubbery chicken
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Chubbery ricken. What can I say, I like spoonerisms.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Under very specific conditions it can be fossilized, that's why it is very rare.
  It doesn't exist like you might be thinking they mean though. Like the DNA is completely compromised.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But the fact remains. Its like when they found the "living" tissue in the T-Rex knee joint. Come on, their going to tell me its millions of years old?
  
  Still, good read, thanks for sharing man!
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree throughout life you need to be equal part open minded and skeptic.
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  mikelongposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The counter to your claim about age is simply this:
  
  If they were from a much recent time, we would find much more of these...and not bone turned to stone. Each time capsule (in this case a body) is encased differently, and this was definitely a rarety.
  
  Interesting articles on this subject about the T-Rex..my students will love 'em. Millions of years, however, is not really that long a period of time.
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How do you like the new developments on t Rex? Like the discovery they hunted in packs?
  Or how the young ones were covered in feathers? I find that stuff so interesting.
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  Captain Redbeardposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What you talk'n bout willis................walden?
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  LookingForWaldenposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, they have made remarkable fossil discoveries lately.
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olodarkwriterposted 12 years ago
Mr. Jesus was a hippy, I do not want to enter into any discussion with you. It is obvious you are the kind of person who is not at all interested in genuine conversation, but in making outrageous statements and baiting others. I do want to point out that in this thread you have claimed to be more loving and forgiving than God and called him an idiot and a bastard,probably other things - I didn't read it all. You are what the Bible refers to as a mocker and a scorner and you seem to be quite proud of that. I wouldn't waste any time trying to persuade you of the truth of anything. But I do ask that you remember these things you have said. That memory will help you understand some things at some point in the future.

My advice to any Christian is to not waste your time on such people as this, shake off the dust and move on.
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  Disappearingheadposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have adopted a principle here of not feeding the crows. The incessant noise that follows; it simple isn't worth the grief.
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  brotheryochananposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is obvious. Once attempted, it is time to move on.
  
  Community shaking the dust off?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Are you saying that I am not more loving then a being who sends 2 bears to maul to death, 42 children simply for mocking a bald man? Are you saying I am not more forgiving then a being who floods the ENTIRE planet to kill ALL humans including babies AND animals cant even be sinners?
  
  And you call me a mocker? I am proud to be a better person than the god described by the bible. If I called god an idiot and a bastard then they were perfectly APT descriptions of such a being.
  
  I am only going on what the bible says and yes, I do scorn these actions. They are sick and petty.
  
  Your advice is not to waste time on people who see wrong in murder and genocide and worshipping beings that are murderers?
  
  Interesting.
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LookingForWaldenposted 12 years ago
I do like the argument he makes about knowing he was going to die all along as he is god and knows all.
It is an interesting point, whether it matters or not depends on the individual.
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LookingForWaldenposted 12 years ago
No doubt.
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