death treats by creationists

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Baileybearposted 13 years ago
The judge that ruled that intelligent design was not constitutional in the Dover trial received death threats and he and his family required protection. His life was more endangered by creationist fruit-loops than by cocaine crack-heads

http://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com … eationism/
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  shoganposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I've never bought a death treat. They sell them at Walmart, don't they?
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ha - I didn't notice that
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  shoganposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry--couldn't resist!
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religious people who are ready, willing and able to kill any who disagree with their ideology. They will attack woman as old as 78 years who are teachers that dare to teach. They kill doctors who preform legal operations and harrass the families of dead soldiers.
  
  Please explain to me again the differences between Fundamentalist/extremist. christians and muslims. The terrorist is still a terrorist, only their god changes. Any god who can stir this level of hatred a the problem. The problem is compounded by the right wing media's constant exploitation and manipulation of their zombies.
  
  Each religion thinks every other religion is the problem and they're all correct. The problem is religion in general. Each religion creates it's share of raving lunatics that talk straight to their god and he always tell them to kill somone or some group of people. It is the same type of brain washing that goes on in North korea. The only difference is, the zombies over here have guns.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Talking of zombies - A few years ago in Wales a woman had her house attacked by a large mixed group of people from her neighbourhood -they put petrol through her letterbox in door and tried to set the house alight and daubed the house with graffiti - PEDOPHILE !
  
  The woman was a paedietrician.
  
  Those people in Wales are about the same dumb as the those in the article.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  whatever next? that's kind of amusing though.
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  Travis_S_Musicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I do agree that religion is the problem. I do not agree that religion creates lunatics with a god telling them to go kill people. This I believe is caused by whatever malfunction is going on in their brains, as is the usual case with any crazy person in general. Then again, some aren't crazy. Some just think they might get off with a lighter sentence if they say "god told me to do it." But that in itself does sound crazy. Maybe we just need a separate society to put crazy people in and keep them there. A place surrounded by four walls, electric fences and security to keep them there. That might help the situation....
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Traviis
  I do not agree that religion creates lunatics with a god telling them to go kill people
  
  You should go read up a little history - religion is responsible for more wars and destruction than any other single cause, it even shares responsibility with oil for the Iraqi outrage.
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  Travis_S_Musicposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  China Man, this is the result of manipulative power-hungry people. Yes, religion is the cause of wars, but this is not about wars, this is about "death threats" and crazy people that claim god made them do it.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If war is not about crazy people whipping up enough people to go around killing other people then I am not sure what it is.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  wolves wearing sheeps clothing. True religion loves its enemies. governments start wars and thats a proven fact however you want to label the war, the citizens are always told last that there is a war.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If true religion loves its enemies - there are very very few who follow any true religion.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the ones with the malfunction in their brains are often power crazy and become cult leaders of extreme religion
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  or politicians
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and <vulgarity snipped> bosses
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Praise God, and pass the ammunition!
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  Davidsonofjesieposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He is anti-american and does not know the histroy of this country,just another attemp to push GOD out of our lifes
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  Jeff Berndtposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "He is anti-american and does not know the histroy of this country,just another attemp to push GOD out of our lifes"
  
  I imagine that he knows the history of the US pretty well. It's the people trying to shove God down everyone's throats who have a skewed idea about the history of this country.
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  BunuBobuposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "anti-american "
  You mean Christianity was invented in America.
  WOW
  Really?
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Flightkeeperposted 13 years ago
You could say the same for fascistic animal lovers who threatened the restaurant owners, workers, their families, its venders and suppliers for promoting lion tacos.

http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/ … mp;emc=rss

Crazies come from all groups but that probably won't get through through your bias. But I do want to thank you for keeping the conversations regarding Christianity going. I think it prompted many people to take a look at it for themselves and seeing what it's all about instead of taking just your word for it. Unbeknownst to you and your fellow posters you are doing the Lord's work. Again, thank you.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Glad to help, how about a shout out to the big guy for me when you get there. I am under the mpression that most religions are experiencing a sharp decline in attendence and membership, We must not be doing that good of a job.
  
  It could be an indication of the level of hate that has been stirred up in AZ. Everyone and their brother is armed and loaded for bear. I dont think the killing is done in that state by a long shot. The hateful dialog will continue and so will the armed confrantations resulting in innocent lives lost.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  well, it's nice that you thank me for doing your god's work. One of your fellow christians here on HP thinks I'm doing the devil's work.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  interesting summation. What do you think.
  
  whose work do ye?
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  my own - I think for myself and encourage others to do the same
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  paarsurreyposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, crazies come from all the groups; pseudo religionist as well the non-religionists.
  
  I agree
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SpanStarposted 13 years ago
Frankly I don't understand why we are so quick to label everybody the same because of some crackpots who we know don't reflect the actions or values of others.

Are all ministers like this crazy Jim Jones who killed or most killed all his followers?
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Labelling saves people the chance to get to know the individual and makes it easier to feel superior to those you don't know. However, I believe when an individual joins an organization and it's label on themselves, they have no right to complain when other address them as they claim to see themselves.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  SpanStar, I agree with you.
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
Historically, more innocent people have died in the name of "God" than any other cause.

The sad thing today is that a very small minority of extremists get the media attention. Of course. The media feed on negativity. How much media coverage to you see of everyday Christians, Jews, Muslims, Quakers, Buddhists, Wiccans, etc. going about their POSITIVE daily lives trying to do good works? Not a whole heck of a lot (unless it is tied in with a catastrophe like Katrina or Haiti).
It's unfortunate that the fringe few create the impression that the entire religion is that way.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Media has the strongest brainwashing power than any religion or philosophy.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  really? Maybe you should read my 3 book review hubs about extreme religion/cults and see if you still think that
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  maybe we should examine what extreme businesses and extreme governments are doing and abolish all those as well. Perhaps we can find an extreme girl guide and get rid of that institution as well or perhaps an extreme atheist and get rid of atheism.
  However much is wrong with this and that it doesnt matter what others do if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.
  with all your knowledge on how things should be done you waste it criticizing others.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's because these extremist cults I hubbed about engaged in criminal activity eg sexual abuse
  
  clearly from your answer & criticism, you had no idea what my hubs were about
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I had a very quick read of your hubs? How does that account for mass brainwashing?
  
  The masses watch TV or read negativity where ever it is. People are that way inclined for the most part. The masses include non religious people as well not just ones who were born into the throes of the religious fanatics. Or those who were somehow led into religion.
  
  You write about 3 different cults and that accounts for about how many people?
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  they banned media like TV, but they were still subjected to mass brainwashing from their leaders.
  
  one cult has approx 50.000; others are smaller (but have had people come and go) - but that's still way to many people getting abused etc
  
  there are other cults that haven't been exposed publicly & plenty of mainstream religions that are mass brain-washing
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I don't doubt that. However, media overall as I stated earlier has the greatest brainwashing power.
  
  I watched this movie the other day called The condemned. The overall message was the power of the internet and how people give whomever this power by watching. The goal of the main actor was to get 40 million viewers to watch 10 different prisoners kill each other till there was only one left. By the end of the movie he achieved his goal.
  
  It also demonstrated the power of media and how for the most part people are negatively geared so to speak
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You know this was a movie - right? Movies are make believe and "demonstrate," nothing. Dear me - I really must consider starting my own religion.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes of course. I did not say it demonstrated anything. I did state that the overall message however was the power of the internet.
  
  Check out this hub if you like.
  
  Mass Media Influence
  
  If one is not aware of the influence of any type of media than unaware one shall remain. That is what brainwashing is.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good grief! You do not even know what you said? It is right there in black and white.
  
  I am well aware that certain personality types - of which there are many - are easily led by the media, religion, nationalism etc. So much so - they do not even know what they are saying.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh you are quite right! Sorry about that.
  
  If it is personality types for you it doesn't matter. It applies to those influenced by media which is way more than religious brain washing. This was my point.
  
  Many people are not aware of what influences their decisions.
  
  It would be an interesting exercise for those who do not believe in mass media influence to do away with all kinds for 30 days.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Religion = mass media. No difference at all. None.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok if thats what you believe. Then so be it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Don't understand? No problem. Apply condescension twice a day to afflicted area.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh yes, there is no problem.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OK. If that is what you believe. So be it.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Media today simply feeds off of the brainwashing already done by religion.
  I just listened to an interesting book on the subject called the Assault on Reason. This is the first thing I have investigated by Al Gore. The practices he discussed concerning the selling of the war in Iraq, are still relivant in todays world. Almost everything he mentioned about media control of the minds of reality TV viewers is being used against the tea baggers with even greater success.
  To those tea baggers that dont like being called tea baggers, quit impersonating an idiot and you can select your own self gratifying label. I would like to suggest...ex judgemental bigot, formally known as god jr.
  
  poh and bb, I am ready to submit to whatever punishment you think I deserve for that last outburst.
  
  I feel the need, the need for weed. Ill be back, just like Arnie..
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That is an odd statement to make. How did you come to that conclusion? Media is not influenced by religion. I am interested to know why you would think that? Also too, what is a tea bagger?
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aka-djposted 13 years ago
I keep trying to make the point, but it seems NO-ONE is getting it.

Playing the "devil's advocate" for a moment. Suppose there is NO god, AT ALL. NOTHING. ZERO. We all evolved as evolutionists say we did. That then means that we humans evolved the way we did. We become susceptible to "indoctrination", and will kill one another at will! Blame evolution for it then, not religion.

It's a flaw in your much beloved system!

I say, (again) that killing is in the nature, the core of man(kind...individuals) and uses whatever excuse that's expedient to get the "job done".

Politics, power, jealousy, fear,..etc. are all equal motivators, to the mind so espoused to act on it.

I think it's an emotive and provocative tactic to use religion as the "problem". Even though I agree that religion is evil, bad, (call it what you will).
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  'a flaw in beloved system' - apart from that bit, what you said prior to that makes more sense than any of the religious explanations - so why bother with silly religious stories?
  
  evolution is not perfect & it is not a system. But it does seem to be the most logical explanation of why people are ultimately driven by fear & compete to survive
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Ok there is no god and I agree there never has been. We as humans have evolved to the point we find ourselves at. You state that at this point we become susceptptible to indoctrination and will kill each other at will. i state that this doesn't happen with out a god issuing comands, and rewarding those who listen with a false sense of humanity. Humanity compromises exctly 1 slot in the evolution of this planet and if we are basing everything on evolution, why is man the only species that evolved enough to kill his own kind for pleasure and sport. No other species that I know of commits random murders for an imaginary being. Every other species kills for food or to protect itself from Dick Cheney.
  
  There is a flaw in your comprehension of the problem and it is the inability to recognize that the problem is religion. The solution to the problem cant logically be the problem in question, unless you are religious in nature. If that is the case I lost you when I mentioned logic.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  actually, chimps have been reported to engage in war and murder each other over territory. Other animals fight for territory eg lions. Domination & fear is in the animal kingdom. Religion is about domination & fear.
  
  Our brains try to look for reason & explanations for our fears. Religion has been the stop-gap until we understood what was really going on with eg microbes, lightning etc.
  
  Cats kill for pleasure & sport.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The ability to control these natural urges is called civilization, which is one reason we are generally uncivilized and why religion that promotes fear of the other is a huge force for the bad tending to keep us uncivilized.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  makes sense.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey BB, I am trying to offer an arguement but keep coming up with really good responses for you. please hold on while I pour myself another mixie.
  
  Ok , this will work. What you described is basic survival in the animal kingdom. What I was refering to was killing for ideology. Granted some religions do eat their victims which means they're actually are no better than the lions, I try never to mention the lions in the same sentence that I mention christians. It seems to make some christians overly defensive for some reason. No one since george Orwell has been able to understand animals enough to dicover their political affiliation or tea party membership status. I will admit that after careful consideration if I had to select which religion lions belonged to, I would say evangelical/southern/baptist/mormonistic/bullabulla/ reformed.
  
  Just like in our world, the mules and jackasses run the Tea Party. The Faux News Migration reports were based on political ideolgy rather than the truth about the weather and the sheep blindly running in circles, is friggin hilarious to watch.
  
  On a side note, I probably did n't need that last drink but what the hey.
  
  I agree with your description of the mental processes utilized to reach a conclusion about our the origin of our fears butt, this doesn't explain why all nuns wear black or why religious people forsake science and knowledge.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's because most people are like sheep - they follow and don't bother thinking for themselves
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That's funny. Primates are our closest cousins and cats come next according to DNA.
  
  Very few individuals other than nut jobs will kill even for a cause unless they are threatened. But groups/mobs form a separate mentality that is quite capable of murder. The biggest obstacles to peace are organizations like religion and nationalism. They create an us vs them mentality. They create fear of the other. The problem is two of the big three religions mandate spreading the “good” word. That’s what makes some people send death threats to those who oppose that mandate. “Heathens” who oppose a religious mandate are seen as the enemy.
  
  Sure there are millions of peaceful Christians and Muslims in the world. But the religions themselves mandate fighting for and appeasing their god and it's so called will. Same with ideas like patriotism and nationalism. It isn't a god they want you to fight and die for it's your way of life. Pretty compelling idea, isn’t it? In the old days it was king and country. But both Islam and Christianity are saying the same thing. So is the KKK. So was the Nazi party. Pretty scary what an otherwise great idea can turn into, isn’t it?
  
  Evolution did create this problem. loyalty to tribe, to family, to organization, helped us survive. It’s natural to want to protect and stand together with those you love or share a way of life with. It's safer in numbers. It is safer with people you share a culture and traditions with. But people are leaving religions and other organizations. There is a shift in our evolution toward inclusion instead of division. Toward multi-culturalism. Toward live and let live. It's been going on for a long time. Evolution takes a long time. Some religions have helped this process. Others that may have helped in the past now hinder it. The world would be better off without religion. Particularly those that preach inclusion, but only if you join. Maybe in time it will die out naturally as the human mind becomes more logical and rational? I can only hope.
  
  Yes there are problems when cultures or different beliefs get together. Some really big ones. But we work on them through dialogue like this.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  stump parish wrote: "i state that this doesn't happen with out a god issuing comands"
  
  when god destroyed the world with a flood that was at a time when god was not issuing the commands. If you think a world without God is the solution to a peaceable planet then i am laughing so loud you can probably hear me. People will always do what they want unless there is a god, so suck it up and get real.
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  pennyofheavenposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree wholeheartedly!
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Onusonusposted 13 years ago
It's all about control. No matter what the belief is, wether it is in God, Buddah, Wicka, Jesus, Darwin, Dawkins, Mohummed, Satan, or any political pundit of the week, it is based in the human psyche for a few people in the world to attempt to press their will upon others. It is not limited to the religious. Your hatred radiates more briliantly with every anti-religious forum topic you create.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Onus, you state that it is about control and not about religion but you offer 8 references to religion and a catch all, political pundit of the day to support this claim. Most political pundits are at least claiming to be religious and usually of the christian faith. Everything you stated points to the fact that is, all about religion.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hey man, I threw in the needed ammount of diversity to encompass people from all walks of life in order to stress my point. I'm sorry to have to be the one to inform you that even people who share your beliefs are imperfect as well.
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  Stump Parrishposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I underdstand now but please tell me the list of imperfect people doesn't include me, I will be devastated, lol.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The aggression you display every time you accuse others of hatred becasue they don't see the world through the same pinhole you do is a perfect example of the christian attitude that this thread points up.
  
  I believe that you have served in the armed forces as I have, don't you feel used and abused by your country - as I did, for supposedly defending your country but then finding it was all about someone else getting rich on your back ? Or did your religion justify the work you were doing becuse they were Muslim or Commies or whatever ?
  
  This is the role of christianity, and most other fundamental religions in war and the creation of divisions around the world and in our daily lives. If it was a force for peace and unity I would support it and pretend your god exists as a good idea.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  hatred? whatever. Why such an accusation - do you actually believe the judge should have been killed?
  
  what's wrong with highlighting things that actually happen & having them think for themselves?
  
  you're a mormon? How extremist are you? Into 'blood atonement' - murder for certain sins?
  
  http://www.arlindo-correia.com/mormons.html
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry to tell you but my religion does not practice "Blood atonement." Interesting though that you had to wade through a bunch of misinformed anti-Mormon propoganda in order to illustrate your agenda. I expect you will be throwing the whole of Christianity in with the west boro baptists as well, because they realy know what core Christian values are. LOL! Very shocking.........
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Maybe it's just the fundamental mormon splinter sects that are into blood atonement. I see they still practise polygamy like your prophet Smith.
  
  how about your space doctrines?
  
  http://www.i4m.com/think/lists/mormon_science.htm
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Here dude.
  http://www.fairlds.org/
  if you want to spew out a bunch of crap that isn't true about my religion, talk to these guys. I don't feel like wasting the rest of the day refuting a bunch of weak claims made by people who get paid to save me from the big bad Mormon Jesus.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I just read 3 articles off that site - what a load of waffle.
  
  What exactly are you denying? That J.Smith had several wives? That early mormon church practised polygamy (and fundies still do)? That you don't have outer space doctrines like dinosaur bones coming from other planets?
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Is everything you say for shock value?
  I think you need to diversify yourself, Try spreading out the Mormon hate stuff to other ministries, those rethink guys are such a dry read.
  Affirmation - Gay and Lesbian Latter Day Saints
  CARM.ORG - Christian apologetics site
  Concerned Christians - Evangelical ministry of former Mormons
  Contender Ministries - Evangelical ministry critical of Latter Day Saints.
  Exmormon.org - For those who have left the LDS Church
  The Exmormon Foundation - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  Main Street Church (Brigham City, UT) (Formerly Living Hope Christian Fellowship) - Evangelical Ministry to Latter Day Saints
  Living Hope Ministries - Videos about Mormonism
  Mormonism Research Ministry - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  Contender Ministries - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  The Mormon Curtain - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  Mormons in Transition - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  Nauvoo Christian Visitors Center - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  Post-Mormon organization - Support for ex-mormons
  Rethinking Mormonism - Criticisms of the LDS church
  Salamander Society - Critics of Latter Day Saints
  Utah Lighthouse Ministry - Maintained by Sandra Tanner
  [2] - Reform Mormonism - critically considers latter day views and evoking a return to the "Nauvoo era" views of Joseph Smith and rationality based religion.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Now if you realy want to shock people I'd go with "Living hope ministries" if I were you. They always put out the most colorful stuff.
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  Woman Of Courageposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Onusonus, Agreed.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  gosh, you are very touchy - hit a nerve? Does anyone else think anything I said was hateful or shocking?
  
  I see JSmith believed those with dark skin were from Cain's line & considered evil. Sounds just as bad as the Westboro's
  
  http://www.i4m.com/think/history/mormon_racism.htm
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wouldn't waste my time at salamander socioty though, they tend to come at you with the Jerry Springer approach. Very tacky. Who knows, it just may be right up your alley.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes the whole thing about Black people is shocking as well when taken out of context. Out of context refrences are the standard operational procedure for the Anti-Mormons.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  care to clarify what is meant about race? All the quotes from the mormon publications say the same thing - white skin is pure like angels & black skin has the mark of Cain and is evil
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Again, if you would like to educate yourself on the statements you have heard by early LDS leaders in context you can visit this websight.
  http://en.fairmormon.org/index.php?titl … ch_leaders
  
  the bottom line is that prophets are not, nor have they ever been perfect, but they are called of God. They may speak as men, but may speak scripture as well. Every person may know for themselves whether they speak the truth through the same power that their revelation is given: the power of the Holy Ghost.
  
  "I have known many times I have preached wrong.
  Ladies and gentlemen, I exhort you to think for yourselves, and read your Bibles for yourselves, get the Holy Spirit for yourselves, and pray for yourselves. The great masses of the people neither think nor act for themselves. I see too much of this gross ignorance among this chosen people of God. What a pity it would be if we were led by one man to utter destruction! Are you afraid of this? I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way. Let every man and woman know, by the whispering of the Spirit of God to themselves, whether their leaders are walking in the path the Lord dictates, or not." -Brigham Young
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I guess that deciding prophets aren't perfect would be the easy way out of your particular prophets being both completley wrong and racist to boot. It wouldn't be the other way around that the basic beliefs are wrong, Oh no, of course not
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then this passage is not referring to black people I guess? If it is not referring to black people, just who, then, is it referring to? Who are these cursed people?
  
  Alma 3:6~9
  
  6And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a acurse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob, and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.
  
  7And their brethren sought to destroy them, therefore they were cursed; and the Lord God set a amark upon them, yea, upon Laman and Lemuel, and also the sons of Ishmael, and Ishmaelitish women.
  
  8And this was done that their seed might be distinguished from the seed of their brethren, that thereby the Lord God might preserve his people, that they might not amix and believe in incorrect btraditions which would prove their destruction.
  
  9And it came to pass that whosoever did mingle his seed with that of the Lamanites did bring the same curse upon his seed.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It says they were Lamanites. I never refuted this passage of scripture.
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CMHypnoposted 13 years ago
On the evolutionary ladder humans are social primates. All social primates have hierarchical structures in their group, with only a few animals at the top doing the thinking and the decision making.

Really we humans are still just like that, but in much larger groups. That's why people like religion - they can just follow, be told what to do, and not think. Any animal that steps out of line by acting and thinking independently in a primate group is punished and driven off - not much change there then!
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Muldanianposted 13 years ago
Some Christians have a long established tradition of holding a bible in the one hand and a gun in the other. What do they honestly think Christ would have thought of this? Maybe they should read their bibles, instead of using them to attack others. If they think killing people is what Christ would have wanted, they surely have missed the point.
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Twenty One Daysposted 13 years ago
I find it odd when people receive death threats they are up-in-arms, yet put their lives in constant harms way to prove something, discover something, impose something, attempt something --be it what they eat, the air they breathe, pills they take, machines they operate, places they go, etc...

The irony is most believe they are going to die at some point and everything they ever knew will end when their brain dissolves and their bodies dissolve into stardust or what-have-you..

So, what's all the hub bub about death and the threats of it?

James
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Personally, if I die because of something I have chosen to risk my life doing, it is at least my choice and I can consider the odds. But someone deciding for me seems to be a bit different, in my opinion.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Like skydiving or surfing, you need to experience it to understand the hub bub, bub.
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  have done surfing --and enjoyed it! Also repelling.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it's about hypocrisy
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William R. Wilsonposted 13 years ago
Actually, I kind of want some death treats. I'm a big fan of death metal, so I'm betting I would enjoy death treats too.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  my cat was playing with a lizard the other night - maybe he considered it a death treat?
  
  We put the lizard outside, not sure if it was dead or alive. It disappeared after an hour, so it either resurrected or something ate it
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  William R. Wilsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Hmm.. resurrected? Maybe it was the lizard Jesus?
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  William R. Wilsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Or maybe the Jesus Christ Lizard?
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45yabrnryXk
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  maybe the lizard was called lazarus? Anyway, could be described as a miracle
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You know, I was wondering what to call you guys, atheist, agnostics, lost sheep, etc. but then I read 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar but the person who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This one is the antichrist: the person who denies the father and the Son. Especially those as described in 1 John 2:19. From now on I will address you as what you are and oh yes , the antichrists who tried to reach me by email: deleted unread.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't imagine anyone would waste their time trying to communicate with you by email or any other form of correspondence. Trying to 'big yourself up' is a little childish and clearly a cry for attention.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Helly Bailey was a bear
  Speading hate everywhere
  One day she awoke in hell
  Wondering whats that awful smell
  It was her fur it had started to burn
  And for Jesus she did yearn
  But alas it was too late
  Because for her they had locked the gate
  
  You had better wake up before it's too late
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nice try cm, deleted, unread.
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is an awful thing to wish upon even your worst enemy, yet you flippantly state this extremely evil poem.
  
  Just what kind of evil God is this that causes people to act in diabolical and compltetely heartless ways as this?
  
  It appears, Troy,that the only reason you worship your God is because you have a grave fear of this mythical place called hell. This is a senseless neurotic delusion.
  
  It would appear that the weak are easily frightened.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  this article is most appropriate - 20 reasons for abandoning christianity
  
  http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html
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  getitriteposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I like this statement by St. Thomas Aquinas, it describes Troy's mind-set to the letter:
  
  As St. Thomas Aquinas put it:
  
  "In order that the happiness of the saints may be more delightful and that they may give to God more copious thanks for it, they are permitted perfectly to behold the sufferings of the damned . . . The saints will rejoice in the punishment of the damned."
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  and the irony is, they think they are being persecuted
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  whose the hateful one Troy? You're the one that started the thread 'why does god let atheists live'? and a hate poem - stooping to new lows - watch out, get much lower and you're be frying in this hell you harp on about
  why would anyone bother emailing you? don't flatter yourself
  
  watchout! the antichrists are after you - how are you going to escape?
  
  and grow a sense of humour if that is at all possible - the lizard thing was a joke - doh!
  
  now what sect were you again? catholic? I'm sure someone could come up with a poem with Troy & boy.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Just ignore empty shells of hate and fear looking for attention. With children the best thing to do is to ignore them until they get over themselves. That hollow, super inflated ego sure takes over sometimes doesn't it.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  there's plenty of hypocritical 'christians' out there - he has a hub called 'why do they hate us when all they do is love them' and goes on to call unbelievers rabid dogs & pigs. Hmmmm
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  William R. Wilsonposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh well. Gee.
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  Troy C.posted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Greetings everyone, well first off I have to say I broke my rule Of not reading your comments, as I was skimming for something positive. I congratulate you, you guys were pretty tame today. Now as for the misquotes of me.
  
  The hub title is "why does God allow athiest and agnostics to exist" not lve.
  The meaning behind the title is why does'nt he just make us all Christians.
  And the overwhelming answer was:free will.
  
  Now on to calling you antichrists dogs and pigs: I said you attack us like ravenous dogs and pigs at feeding time or something like that. An analogy to point out how vicious your attacks are.
  
  You antichrists are always twisting things.
  
  I do love you and it gets easier and easier, the more I study the word. I'm not where I want to be but I'm not where I used to be. I'm more like Peter in the Garden than Peter at Pentecost. I'll get there. But the term antichrist stays because that is straight from the Bible, not me I'm just explaining this so people wont believe your lies, they can go check it out for themselves.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I can't believe you 'love us' because of your own viscious, hateful attacks
  
  Your words:
  "I can only wonder why they hate us...
  
  Why they ridicule and berate us...Then they attack
  
  Like ravenous pigs or rabid dogs"
  
  Gee, you really don't get it do you. For the record, I don't hate you, but I don't like you either. Such hateful imagery - I've never used such hateful imagery writing about believers.
  
  your words:
  http://hubpages.com/forum/topic/57001#post1311926
  
  "Why is it that the creator of heaven and earth would allow himself and those who believe in him to be ridiculed and persecuted. Why he would not only let them exsist but allow them to thrive while here on earth. "
  "Another reason God allows them to exist here in the hubpages is so that when we face the enemy in the physical world, we are better equipped to handel the situation. I'm learning more and more about his tactics."
  "Randy , the snake you have on all your posts represent the serpent you serve"
  'They are headed to hell on the devils highway."
  
  What a loving message - I want to go back to being a christian - NOT!
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  'antichrist stays because straight from the bible'
  
  the bible refers to THE antichrist - ie one that does miracles, so can't be us - looks like you need to read your bible better
  
  http://hubpages.com/hub/IDENTIFYING-THE-ANTICHRIST
  
  http://christianity.about.com/od/endtim … christ.htm
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is no "the antichrist".. there is only the spirit of antichrist. There are only 4 verses in the NT where the word antichrist is used
  
  1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
  
  1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
  
  1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  
  2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
  
  and none of them point to an end time personage of "the antichrist". This is something you have been taught and not learned and it is wrong and you mimic what you have not researched. How much more is the same way.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  maybe what you are taught is different from what i was taught (didn't you say you are a recent convert?). wouldn't surprise me at all - christian doctrines change as time goes by
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  thats just the point. What has been taught is not necessarily always right, unfortunately, this is why research needs to be done and learned things need to be examined for their accuracy. This is why God has left his Word, for us to study. I have found a number of mistruths and false teachings through prayer and study, combined together.
  The number of years does not a christian make, its is ones loyalty, dedication and separation from the things of this world that lead to enlightenment.
  Christian doctrine does not change so much as another truth replaces it. For example, the doctrine of baptism by baptists ends with water immersion differing from the catholic teaching and the doctrine of baptism continues further with pentecostalism as per acts 2 etc.
  Years ago many churches did not have access to the greek and hebrew wordings which have opened up so many new understandings and the jewish customs of the times were not as readily available for all to grasp
  My parents were anglican which is a form of catholicism and i was dragged along for much of my early childhood much to my chagrin.
  in the end times Gods word and thus God says that knowledge will increase and i believe that more revelation is on the way.
  Thanks for your response. Your tenacity intrigues me. :0) sometimes i have been harsh, i ask forgiveness for that harshness. Questions do need to be answered.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  so all those christians that had the 'wrong' message are doomed, then?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And don't think we non-believers don't appreciate you, Troy. You present a good example of why we are so against your particular god, whichever one it is. Your insults and self-righteous judging of others merely helps us point out the ignorance of your beliefs. Once again, thanks! You're doing Satan's work for him!
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Breaking your own rules seems to be your forte.
  
  Yes, and continue to feel free to chastise where you can find equally appalling verses and quotes from your holy book to make yourself appear superior to everyone and then state that it's okay to do so because it's in your holy book.
  
  As an aside though, it's not working.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  what about the appalling history of north america? or the taking of africans to be slaves against their will... does this make you want to NOT believe in humankind?
  One sided perceptions do not make an equable debate
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Slavery was justified by biblical scripture. But surely you knew that if you are familiar with your god's inspired words.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  slavery was justified... hmmmm; slavery was a fact, and i think God worked within that frameset, but i also, recall God instituting a thing called the Jubilee year in which all slaves were set free, debt paid or not. So as slavery was a way to pay debts off, there was always a way out, ordained of God for the good of family.
  Just like everyone says "i need a day off work, just to rest". Remember the Sabbath- a God inspired day of rest every week.
  Gods inspired word, indeed mr Goodwin. indeed.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Some clarity, please. What debts did slaves have to pay off?
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  Twenty One Daysposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Among Hebrews, and many nomadic people, it was common that whatever debts a person had, was payable by enslavement or voluntary servitude to the owing party. The term "working off the debt" applies. -Kind of like the global economic system (especially mortgages) today. In the case of Babylon, Egypt, Syria, the Hebrews were enslaved because of invasion by their neighbors.
  
  James.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  appalling history of america - yeah, one of the most racist nations, despite having a 'christian' heritage
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, considering all that you refer were committed acts by good Christians.
  
  Often, perceptions don't make an argument at all if facts overrule those perceptions.
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  brotheryochananposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I disagree.
  Often the label christian is applied to those to whom the label does not apply. Since you often purport that those that break gods laws are not actually christians and then you say that those who do break gods laws are christians i must ask, "do not both sides of your mouth hurt from the often speech that issues forth"?
  
  Yes america is said to have a christian founding but really do those who steal and kill reside in the area of christian? Did hitler being born roman catholic really practice what jesus said? These labels so easily thrown around also include ordinary greedy men who sought their own interests or the commercial giants who greedily obtained wealth by anothers demise, corporations and other groups of special interest who impacted history behind the lines.
  
  Can we not understand slavery to be more a commercial venture than the church? Do we not think that the church may have had in hand in allowing people to "follow the drinking gourd" to a man in the town who would help (slavery song) I read once that a person said when slavery was abolished that the price of everything would soar. Lincoln was killed for freeing slaves... was it a christian who pulled the trigger? I am sure it was the business sector or perhaps the free masons.
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  Beelzedadposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That wasn't my claim though, I was simply repeating what other Christians here and the ones who commit atrocities claim. Crhistians here will claim those who commit atrocities are not Christians, while those who commit atrocities claim they are the true Christians.
  
  But, we know America was not a Christian founding.
  
  Whether you or I may state quite emphatically that those who steal and kill, and despots like Hitler don't practice those teachings, they will emphatically state that they do.
  
  We could point out any number of Christians here who claim to be Christians, yet they may not practice the teachings.
  
  John Wilkes Booth Booth was baptized at St. Timothy's Protestant Episcopal Church at the age of 14.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  There is a problem with a god that knows everything in advance and free will. If you have one you can't have the other by default. So which is it? Does your god know all in advance or do you have free will? You can't have it both ways. Just thought you should know.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How does knowing things in advance negate free will? If he doesn't step in and prevent you from doing what you want to do then you were able to exercise your agency without any interferance. That's simply God knowing what's going to happen and letting it happen.
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  If entity knows every part of the future then free will is trashed completely. By being omniscient, entity has option to know about all possible aftermath of any action. So why stop someone from doing anything ? any action will lead to that entity. This makes free will a big BS.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It would only be BS if we were being constantly acted upon by such an outside entity, but since we are afforded free will, and I know because I am using my free will to write to you, no matter what if God wants me to or not, he lets me do it anyway.
  
  In no way does it make God useless either because the whole idea of being given a mortal sojourn is for our personal growth. Hence your parents let you learn to ride a bike even though you were most certainly going to fall off and get hurt. the ammount of joy you receive from a childhood spent riding bikes outweighs any scraped knees by far.
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  china manposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Actually this is not far from the truth - knowing what will happen and letting it happen - is exactly the situation of NO GOD at all. If this were the case, then why would there be a god ? Even you and I exist only in what we do and the effect we have on everything around us - if we do nothing and have no effect then we don't exist. Same goes for any possible god.
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  Slarty O'Brianposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well that's not how it works. Most Christians don't understand this. It isn't because god knows in advance, it is because it can be known in advance. If it can be known then it is predetermined. Nothing you can do about it. If you can do something about it not even god can know in advance.
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yankeeintexasposted 13 years ago
You can say I am "Religious, and I am definitely believe in "Intelligent Design" but, I don't make death threats to people that believe differently than I do, nor do those I associate with people that make threats!
I am sure that just as many "Evolutionist" kill, and make threats for no reason other than to do it!
Just because one person threatens some dumb judge does not mean the rest of us are like him! Just think about it!!!!!!!!!
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  it sounds like it wasn't a dumb judge, just some bigoted religionists
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am sorry! An uneducated judge being threatened by a psycho!
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  skyfireposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah just because he gives decision against creationists he becomes uneducated ? I wonder what points were raised by so-called educated creationists.
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  try lots of psychos. Uneducated? Because he knew that the US constitution was not actually built on christianity like many like to think? And he knew 'intelligent design' was not science & doesn't belong in science class
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  So you think the "Theory of Evolution" should be taught as fact? It is what it is, a theory!
  Also, if the judge was truly educated he would not be blaming a group of citizens for the action of ONE psycho!
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  Baileybearposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you obviously don't have the foggiest what a scientific theory is.
  
  ID does not even meet the criteria for a scientific theory. Evolution does. ID doesn't belong in science class, but in religion
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Enough to know if it say "Theory" than it is a "Theory"!
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  Merlin Fraserposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Sounds to me like a severe case of Pot and Kettle calling...
  
  Is it possible to rise to become a Judge in the USof A without an education ?
  
  However I will grant you one small correct fact when you challenge the state of the US Eucation system if they still consider the subject of Evolution and the Origin of species are still theories then they as well as you could stand a little update.
  
  I know some of you are not going to be able to grasp the simple truth of the next statement but it has already been proven and accepted by most branches of serious science and most serious religions.
  
  Get Over It and move on because quite frankly watching asinine discussions like this one make my brain hurt just trying to comprehend such a lack of understanding.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
So you think 'creationism' should be taught as fact ? It is what it is, a quack. Refer - 6000 year old theory, BS of biblical evidence in this quack just in case if you need help to find what's quack in it.
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  When did "Theory" become fact? If something is a "Theory" than it should taught as a "Theory"!
  Also, for your information I have not refereed to anything as being "quack", you are! But, since we are now calling things "quack" it is a "quack" to me that science takes a theory and goes backwards when I was taught that science takes a theory and goes forward. That is what is very wrong with the "Theory" of Evolution"!
  By the way, since Creationism is a belief than it should taught as a belief!
  Happy?
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
What makes you think there is only ONE psycho ? Christianity produces such psychos in large numbers everyday.
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  yankeeintexasposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And your kind don't?
  All I have seen is when somebody kills, and they are not a Christian, science says its not their fault but it is something genetic! If somebody kills, and they are "Religious" than it is because they are religious the kill!
  So, tell me something is all because of religion, or genetics? It can only be one!
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
Exactly. And about quack, yes i said it and i'm sticking to that point. Creationism failed to prove the existence of earth with timeframe of 6000 years old, that makes it instant quack. Because they tried to use science to prove their belief and failed.

Evolution talks about how life is evolved so it always points to how life was from the past and moving to the future. Abiogenesis deal with how life was created. Your attack against evolution stems from ignorance of multiple theories in science. Evolution is both fact and a theory. Your so-called educated creationists failed to see this point.

http://www.actionbioscience.org/evolution/lenski.html
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
My kind. Well i'm human and i have seen humans killing for money, power and women. What about you ? Your kind kill for religion ? That looks more to me like some psychological issue. You only get mental satisfaction of eliminating person who is opposed to your religion-from killing for religious reason.

Also a result from brainwashing, social harassment and abuse.

Of course every type of attack has some motive, be it religious or money. You're just trying to ignore that your kind (holier than us humans) have no such defect.

Nope. It can be more than one at the same time. You can provoke a person whose genetic background in the bloodline is just fine and now attacks other humans. Child of serial killer is not necessarily becomes fredy or jason in future.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
No proof. Making wild claims out of thin air.

Nope. You're not using free will but more of choice which is offered to you from the number of choices which the entity already knows no matter which you choose. If it's calculated choices then it's free-choice. It has to be from the infinite set of results to be a free-will. Your actions are limited and so the choices in any situation, there is no need for guidance to begin with.

The chances of falling and learning to ride bike is related to the ability of the learner. Some people just keep on falling and never learn to ride the bike the right way or they take time to learn it. Allowing someone to take chances to learn it has nothing to do with free will or choice so analogy is poor here.

Entity becomes useless when there are computed sets of choices for every species that entity creates. Because once computed every action that you take or miss can be kept in alternate reality and let it process without any interruption from the entity(refer to quantum physics for this theory). Expecting there is always one option out of computed choices makes entity useless in this process where you're trying to make it useful for your mental satisfaction. If it's just one choice which you feel as guidance from entity then things from that entity then it can be put into automation and you just appear to act like a robot.
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Skyfire wrote;
  "No proof. Making wild claims out of thin air."
  
  There is proof, you just don't want to hear about it.
  
  "Nope. You're not using free will but more of choice which is offered to you from the number of choices which the entity already knows no matter which you choose. If it's calculated choices then it's free-choice. It has to be from the infinite set of results to be a free-will. Your actions are limited and so the choices in any situation, there is no need for guidance to begin with."
  
  The freedom to choose is what free will is.
  
  "The chances of falling and learning to ride bike is related to the ability of the learner. Some people just keep on falling and never learn to ride the bike the right way or they take time to learn it. Allowing someone to take chances to learn it has nothing to do with free will or choice so analogy is poor here."
  
  I've never seen anyone who gave up on learning to ride a bike, this analogy pertains precicely to life and gaining experience.
  
  "Entity becomes useless when there are computed sets of choices for every species that entity creates. Because once computed every action that you take or miss can be kept in alternate reality and let it process without any interruption from the entity(refer to quantum physics for this theory). Expecting there is always one option out of computed choices makes entity useless in this process where you're trying to make it useful for your mental satisfaction. If it's just one choice which you feel as guidance from entity then things from that entity then it can be put into automation and you just appear to act like a robot."
  
  One learns a much greater deal through actual experimentation vice simplistic computation.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
Nope. I'm ready to hear it but your religious way of explanation don't stand against dissection and skepticism.

If that choice is known by entity then it's not free will but more of guided action irrespective of which choice you make from available choice.

This is where your analogy fails that you don't see anything that's happening makes impossible for you. Isn't that what you throw-ed at to me in first quoted reply ? (ref - you don't want to hear about it).

and yet fail to give proof ? if your choices are already computed by creator then your choice is not free will but part of guided decision of creator and you appear to be a robot. If you don't want to be a robot and choose from set of decision unknown to creator, then creator appears to be a non-omniscient entity. Choose the one which fits you
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  Onusonusposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Your religious way of explanation doesn't stand against dissection and skepticism. Bad sentence structure. Not if that entity abstains from interupting the outcome of things he already knows will happen, then he has no control over it. Not realy. If god were all powerful then what would stop him from just moving us around like a bunch of Chess peices, what would be the poing of that? Obvoiusly we use our agency to make decisions, hence we exercise our free will from one moment to the next.
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skyfireposted 13 years ago
Learning slowly as this is my 4th language, hope you get my point.

Either interruption or not, omniscient entity knows about all the choices, agree or disagree ?

It is. Check the replies.

Same reasoning applied when you give reasoning for prayers, love from him or think about merging with him after death. You're believer so make out reasoning if you think our choices are random and not known by non-omniscient god.

Free will which is already computed by entity, if it's not computed then god loses it's omniscient powers.
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BobbiRantposted 13 years ago
People who pose death threats obviously are not very religious. Crackpots and fanatics come in all sizes, colors and affiliations. I don't judge an entire group by some nut cases who grab all the headlines. Let's face it; 'dog bites man' is not news but 'man bites dog' grabs the headlines.
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