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Discourse on HubPages

  1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days ago

    In the short time that I've been here on HP, it seems as though there is very little criticism happening on feeds. It could just be that I've been looking in the wrong place and I am not exactly pro-conflict but I get the feeling that people are almost afraid to challenge each others logic. In fact, I see more placating one another for reciprocal following than there is counter-argumentation. I was driven away from the basic social media platforms because they were toxic frenzies of disagreeable discussion. Here, there seems to be more at stake. I suppose I should be more grateful that there exists a place where people interact in a quasi-productive way but someone needs to read this and tell me I'm wrong. Tell me about all the places where this isn't happening. Give me resistance!

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image100
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 11 days agoin reply to this

      The purpose of this site is for people to write articles.  The purpose of the forums is to seek assistance and sometimes vent when things go wrong.  This is not a social networking site, it is a place for thoughtful people to share basic views about different things and sometimes get constructive criticism.

      Some people can take criticism, and some cannot, but those who ask for it and then gladly accept it and use the information to improve their work are those who do best and those who are the most well respected here.

      One does not need conflict in order to have thoughtful discussion.  If you want conflict, join Facebook!

      1. Ken Burgess profile image88
        Ken Burgessposted 11 days agoin reply to this

        I agree with this sentiment.  It believe it will benefit Hubpages in the long run to move away from the 'social commentary/debate' with more focus on articles, comments can be made in those articles, discussions can carry on in those articles... for years, that is the only place I interacted with others, is through their articles.

        It wasn't until the Q&As and Forum questions started appearing on the opening page when I logged in, in place of articles/Hubs that I eventually started to involve myself in that way on Hubpages.

    2. TessSchlesinger profile image96
      TessSchlesingerposted 10 days agoin reply to this

      I left hubpages about a year after I started. I made my first payout within three months, and my last payout was $600. I left for one reason, and one reason only - that of toxic 'disagreement' and horrific trolling on hubpages.

      I come here to work and earn money. I do not need 'disagreement.' I get plenty of that on my social networking sites.

      I want to work in an evnironment where people give me useful input so that I can increase my earnings. I am extremely thankful that the climate has changed the way it has. I am currently very happy here, and I don't want threads that are 'criticical' for reasons that have nothing to do with my work.

      1. poppyr profile image100
        poppyrposted 9 days agoin reply to this

        I heard you're not supposed to post your earnings on here. Please be careful, Tess. That being said, $600 is fantastic, well done smile

  2. Oztinato profile image81
    Oztinatoposted 11 days ago

    People are afraid to be confronting here because they get very easily banned. Who wants toxic anyway?
    It's that simple.

  3. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days ago

    Banned? That's a shame. No one wants toxic but we do need to be able to strengthen our arguments. Thinking alone or in an echo chamber isn't thinking. There's a difference between discourse and being disrespectful to one another.

  4. Kathryn L Hill profile image81
    Kathryn L Hillposted 11 days ago

    What you find here is polite, passive resistance. We cannot call names and get emotional enough to make personal verbal attacks or yes, we will be banned. Something wrong with that? Something wrong with intellectually backed arguments? Yes, we have to think/feel and come up with logical/heart felt counterpoints. Yes, we have to use our brains to guide and channel our emotions when supporting our individual POVs. I also quite enjoy when others agree with me. This is a treat when it happens. Something wrong with that?
    No.

  5. Kathryn L Hill profile image81
    Kathryn L Hillposted 11 days ago

    How much of our discourse here, (referring to HP Topical Forums ONLY,) is Passive Aggressive Discourse?

    "Passive agression \ Passive-Aggressive Behavior
    Passive-aggressive behavior is used to describe behavior or personality traits that are indirectly aggressive rather than using direct aggression. These behaviors usually occur when a person is angry or upset but will not or cannot express their discontent. Instead of communicating honest feelings, a passive-aggressive person will keep their feelings to themselves and want you to notice they are upset. They may also stop talking to you, give angry looks, or demonstrate obviously negative changes in behavior, such as sulking or stonewalling (which is a refusal to answer questions or giving evasive answers in order to delay or block a request, process, or person). Passive-aggressive behavior can be covert or blatantly obvious.

    A passive-aggressive person may not show that they are angry. Instead, they may appear to agree with you in a friendly or kind manner. However, the intent to manipulate the situation to their favor is in the forefront of their mind. For example, a worker may purposely and repeatedly make excuses to avoid workers or tasks as a way of expressing their dislike toward a job or individual.

    Is This Really Emotional Abuse?
    This type of aggression is destructive because it is often believed to be a form of emotional abuse. Such relationships can slowly kill any trust that exists between people or groups by creating negative relationship dynamics between all involved. The bullets below mention a few passive-aggressive behaviors. Remember it is not passive-aggressive when these behaviors rarely occur, nor if it is one or two occurring within isolated incidents. Passive-aggression is a coping skill and happens often.

    Ambiguity
    Avoiding or ignoring a person or situation
    Avoiding communication
    Blaming
    Evasiveness
    Excuses
    Learned helplessness
    Obstruction
    Procrastination
    Sulking
    Withholding
    From time to time, everyone will experience negative emotions and feelings. Everyone will also at some point do things to avoid arguments or conflict. However, for the passive-aggressive person, holding on to negative feelings and avoiding conflict are continual and persistently repeated patterns of negative attitudes and passive."
    https://study.com/academy/lesson/passiv … -quiz.html

    Wondering

  6. theraggededge profile image99
    theraggededgeposted 11 days ago

    If you want discourse with an edge, go here: http://hubpages.com/forum/topical

    big_smile

    1. Kathryn L Hill profile image81
      Kathryn L Hillposted 11 days agoin reply to this

      Nice score u have!

  7. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days ago

    @theraggededge All I saw was the word Trump and that settled it haha.

  8. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days ago

    @TimeTraveler, straw man. I never said conflict was a pre-requisite for thoughtful discussion. I made the distinction pretty clear in my OP and subsequent comment to Oztinato.

    1. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image100
      TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 days agoin reply to this

      straw man?  To what are you referring?  You totally lost me on that one, but if you are saying that my point is a weak one, then you clearly do not seek the truth, which is what you said here that you want to do.  Truth is relative.  My point of view is just as valid as yours, and I do not try to defeat yours by labeling what you are saying.  So, in fact, it appears that you DO want to create some controversy, even though you have indicated that you do not.

      1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
        Jessie L Watsonposted 10 days agoin reply to this

        You quote: "One does not need conflict in order to have thoughtful discussion.  If you want conflict, join Facebook!"

        Straw Man Fallacy: Substituting a person’s actual position or argument with a distorted, exaggerated, or misrepresented version of the position of the argument.

      2. Jessie L Watson profile image91
        Jessie L Watsonposted 10 days agoin reply to this

        And its especially frustrating because I thought I made myself clear that there is a particular balance between conflict and counter-argumentation but many people here took it as me hoping for fire and brimstone. So its obvious that people don't understand the difference. Perhaps there needs to be a discussion on this dichotomy. When I asked for resistance I wasn't asking for someone to come along and misrepresent my point or get disheveled. The only person that succeeded here was the one who showed me an entire section of forums where decent conversation was taking place. Granted, sprinkled among them was vitriolic banter that you would also find on Facebook but that's obviously not what I'm after.

        1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
          Jessie L Watsonposted 10 days agoin reply to this

          "So, in fact, it appears that you DO want to create some controversy..."

          No sir. Hostility is born out of rash assumptions, not contesting someones responses which was a perfectly reasonable rebuttal and not an attack on your character.

          1. Marisa Wright profile image98
            Marisa Wrightposted 10 days agoin reply to this

            I'm still struggling with WHERE, precisely, you were hoping that people would engage in more criticism or spirited debate.

            I just don't see any areas of the Tutorials and Community sections where there COULD be an opportunity for it.   Those sections are for writers discussing the business of writing - so apart from critiquing someone's writing, I don't see it?

            Although I suspect a lively debate could spring up between the Social Hubbers and the Business Hubbers over the issue of complimenting people on their Hubs...

            1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
              Jessie L Watsonposted 10 days agoin reply to this

              My original sentiments have since expired. I realize now it was just a fleeting thought that should've never emerged. That's good right? Here's a thought, here's why that thought does or doesn't have merit, so on and so forth. Excellent work. I'm surprised it lasted as long as it did. Foot in mouth moment that goes on for eternity....

  9. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days ago

    @KathrynHill. Thanks for the dissertation on passive aggressiveness.

  10. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days ago

    Everyone came to this discussion locked and loaded and no one got angry or disrespectful. Good stuff. (Although I did detect misrepresentations of my point but that's to be expected)

    1. psycheskinner profile image83
      psycheskinnerposted 11 days agoin reply to this

      You have mastered the passive aggressive style of the forum, I see.

      1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
        Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days agoin reply to this

        Takes a long while to master something. I'm not sure I've mastered anything. I'm actually quite humble and try to punctuate my observations with humor. But since people are extra sensitive these days, so be it haha. Grrrr. I'm so aggressive but passively so. Grrr.

      2. theraggededge profile image99
        theraggededgeposted 11 days agoin reply to this

        big_smile Excellent big_smile

    2. Jean Bakula profile image100
      Jean Bakulaposted 11 days agoin reply to this

      The political forums get really snarky and mean, if you want debate. Of course, it's not real debate, it's opposing views from people who are usually quite closed minded. It's best to stick to writing and not waste too much time on forums. The ones with info about writing itself are helpful.

      1. Ken Burgess profile image88
        Ken Burgessposted 11 days agoin reply to this

        This exactly, something I have learned from experience.  Why waste time shouting at a wall, when you can devote that time to writing Hubs and getting your point across through articles that hundreds will read?

      2. Marisa Wright profile image98
        Marisa Wrightposted 11 days agoin reply to this

        You've hit the nail on the head, Jean.   There are very few rational people on the political forums, it's mostly closed-minded conspiracy theorists screaming their opinions at each other.

  11. Gregory DeVictor profile image97
    Gregory DeVictorposted 11 days ago

    Years ago, I was a member of a so-called professional online group, the name of which I would much rather keep anonymous. (They’re still around though.) As I live life backwards, this group was a precursor to Facebook. There was constant backbiting, slandering, one-upmanship, self-pity parties, and discord. Nothing constructive was ever accomplished. One member who was finally banned would get online while under the influence of alcohol and insult everyone. The day finally came when I got the courage to leave this hostile environment.

    Compared to the other group, the temperament at HubPages is far more relaxed and conducive to active participation. For a long period of time, I had no real interest in getting involved with HubPages’ discussion platform because my toxic experiences with the aforementioned group and the fact that I was busy writing hubs and working at my demanding job as a consultant. Well, I took the plunge and it has added quality and dimension to my life.

    1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
      Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days agoin reply to this

      I must say my experience has been about the same. Although I find myself interjecting on random feeds lately. I just need to go back to writing articles and leaving it at that.

      Glad to hear you were able to escape that situation.

      1. snakeslane profile image81
        snakeslaneposted 9 days agoin reply to this

        Just to chime in here, Hub Pages freeform discussion forum is available for silly threads.
        "A place for forum games, never ending threads, and other vacuous fun."  Here's the link, in case you haven't spotted it.
        http://hubpages.com/forum/category/6631

        You can learn more about how that got started by clicking on the Sandpit thread at the top of the list in the link. Lots of opinions there about having fun (or not).

        "Vacuous, Reserved for the harmlessly stupid and truly meaningless, vacuous is a smart-sounding way to describe something dumb." (Googled that).

        Until the category is removed I'd say you're allowed to be silly, and invited to do so, in that forum anyway.

        Edit: Yes, I see this thread is posted in the freeform discussion forum, but not sure if you had read the summary.

  12. Ken Burgess profile image88
    Ken Burgessposted 11 days ago

    "In the short time that I've been here on HP, it seems as though there is very little criticism happening on feeds."

    That is understandable, I used to be a cat IV or V commentator, forget which as it was never a matter I concerned myself with, after watching a more senior participant and contributor of Hubpages attempt to humiliate and disparage other contributors that didn't see things according to his political views, for months without anyone putting a stop to it,  I confronted him on it (not with abusive or foul language by any means), just confronting him with his own arrogance and egotistical better than everyone else attitude.  That got me suspended from posting, I had my commentator status removed, and I'm sure there was a push by that individual to ban me all together.  So it doesn't pay to be confrontational.  You can debate things just fine, but if you cross the wrong person and do not accept their degradation of your views or opinions, it can lead to problems.

    1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
      Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days agoin reply to this

      That's unfortunate. There is a dark underbelly after all.

      1. Ken Burgess profile image88
        Ken Burgessposted 11 days agoin reply to this

        I wouldn't say that exactly, all humans are fallible, I could have chosen an alternate route in my approach perhaps, but your question was in regards to the confrontational (criticism, pro-conflict, I took the liberty I suppose to read into your question)... which is how I chose to handle what I perceived to be a problem that I saw persist for a while, and it proved to have consequences.

        I am not exactly sure how else you go about trying to censor an approved moderator and senior contributor here on Hubpages, should you face such a circumstance, I would suggest avoidance of it unless there is direct and blatant disrespect for you or your views expressed on your Hubs, which I believe you could still moderate as you see fit, thereby alleviating the matter.

        1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
          Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days agoin reply to this

          I feel misunderstood. I wasn't lobbying for conflict or harsh criticism, just intellectual discourse. I was simply pointing out that a lot here is taken for face value. If someone presents a set of premises followed by a conclusion then you might expect to find interlocutors. Basic philosophy stuff.

          Perhaps I didn't formulate my observation very well. I'm still exploring all of what HubPages has to offer. I'm not looking for trouble. Just looking for a place where I belong.

          1. Marisa Wright profile image98
            Marisa Wrightposted 11 days agoin reply to this

            I'm still trying to work out what you're getting at, to be honest.

            There are two sections to the HubPages forums.  One is the topical section, which is more than confrontational enough for me - I generally go nowhere near it!   The other is the Tutorials & Community section, and the whole point of it is for the writers' community here to support and motivate each other.   So there's no real need to get into disagreements. 

            The only place where you might get harsh criticism is when people post their Hubs for review.  As we're all writers, we all know what it's like to have our work crucified, so we all tend to "do as we would be done by", I guess.   

            I have been known to get quite snarky with HubPages admin, of course...

            1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
              Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days agoin reply to this

              I value the search for truth and that is found through freedom of expression and discourse. That's all. Always searching for the truth.

              Thanks for the info on different sections and their function.

            2. Jessie L Watson profile image91
              Jessie L Watsonposted 11 days agoin reply to this

              And when I make blurby posts like this, it's usually out of silly or fun heartedness. Then it becomes serious and more confusing. Probably my fault because I overthink. But that's part of why I'm here.

          2. Ken Burgess profile image88
            Ken Burgessposted 10 days agoin reply to this

            I wasn't saying you were lobbying for conflict or harsh criticism.

            You were saying people seemed to refrain from it here (at HP) more than other places.

            I concur, and the reason why is it typically is not tolerated.  However if you check out enough political threads you will find it sooner rather than later.

            And then, most of my reply was an attempt to suggest you avoid it, where possible, rather than look for it.  However it came across it wasn't meant that I believed you were looking for it.

            So, my suggestion is to avoid it in the forums and Q&A, its not worth it, and the people who spend their time there acting out their aggressions towards others for supporting Trump, or loathing Trump, or whatever the issue is... it is just better to spend your time writing Hubs, reading Hubs, responding to Hubs.

            I took the time to answer your question because I know you are new, and I have read some excellent articles by you, you are definitely a positive addition to HP.  I offered my story as an example of what can happen, and as others have stated, it can get a person banned.

            1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
              Jessie L Watsonposted 10 days agoin reply to this

              I appreciate that, Ken. Yesterday I was bobbing in and out of this discussion and I just got cross eyed from it. Lot's going on here. Goes to show how easily these things get out of hand.

      2. TIMETRAVELER2 profile image100
        TIMETRAVELER2posted 10 days agoin reply to this
  13. theraggededge profile image99
    theraggededgeposted 11 days ago

    People do get mixed up - this 'side' of the forum is dedicated to hubpages-related posts; the topical side is for debate on any subject whatsoever. Yes, you saw loads of posts there about Trump, but there are more thoughtful discussions  going on there too. Go explore the topics.

  14. TheShadowSpecter profile image91
    TheShadowSpecterposted 10 days ago

    Here's what it is, Jessie.  HubPages is more sophisticated than other platforms like Reddit and YouTube.  If someone wants to argue against someone else's point here on HubPages, they usually show their maturity by having a good counter-argument in place, whereas on YouTube, people just attack each other without focusing on the point of discussion.  Therefore, HubPages holds itself to a higher standard than YouTube in that respect.  It makes more sense that way.  If someone disagrees with me about something and they can present strong, salient counterpoints, then I do want to read what they have to say.  However, on the other hand, whenever I'm on YouTube and somebody simply shoots hate comments at me because they don't agree with me, then I really have no use for that person or their comments.

    1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
      Jessie L Watsonposted 10 days agoin reply to this

      Yeah I hear ya. I remember a couple years ago I watched a 3 minute video on organic chemistry. You'd be amazed at what people find about nucleotides that's cause for hateful exchange.

      I'm happy about the opportunity for higher standard of discussion here. In my OP, I was hoping to draw out the people who knew the difference between that and the YouTube standard and would point me in the right direction. Plus those who have a sense of humor...

  15. Gregory DeVictor profile image97
    Gregory DeVictorposted 10 days ago

    Courtesy of HubPages, I have been able to undo a lot of nonsense that has been going on in my life for a very long time. It has to do with a Hub that I recently published. I stayed up late last night and made some changes to the hub. I even made more changes today when I got home from the supermarket and Target. Originally, the hub was static and lacked flavor. Now that I was honest about everything and made the much-needed updates, I have seen the “domino effect” work in my life. However, I could not have ever done it without HubPages.

    Since I cannot discuss specifics about any of my hubs here, I must focus on being as general as possible.

    1. Jean Bakula profile image100
      Jean Bakulaposted 10 days agoin reply to this

      Hi Jessie,
      HP was originally a site where amateur or intermediate writers could find an easy computer platform to work on their writing skills. The rules allowed for a lot more advertising of products, or just opinion pieces. We were allowed to link to any site to get attention to our articles, and also to use a lot of Amazon capsules. People were making good money, one of the advertised goals of HP.

      But the site fell out of favor with Google about 5 years ago, and they considered HP a "content farm." To be able to save the site and still make money to continue it, the administrators have been experimenting with many new rules to get back in Google's good graces.

      Now it's a site that requires or wants interesting, informative or entertaining magazine style articles. While they used to favor ones about 750 words long, now Google gives more attention to writers who write articles in a 2500 word range or mine are sometimes longer.

      The grammar and picture rules have changed dramatically. So we who stayed here spend most time fixing up good articles that have to be constantly brought up to better standards. The forums are there for relief when you need a break from writing, or to help if you have questions or need opinions on what you wrote. The writers are usually kind and it's a nice environment. Many of us have gotten to know each other well over the years, and offer each other encouragement.

      If you get lucky, you gain a following, who will either follow you to a personal blog, or you may be asked to contribute to other people's topical blogs, for payment for your work. I've built a nice P/T home business from my main niche here. So there are benefits. We are making more money since the site changed over to the niche sites. But the rules will continue to change, and it's annoying, you need to be patient with that.

      You can find discussion on the topical forums, and will meet like minded people. But that's kind of like preaching to the choir. If you want intelligent and fact based debate between rational people, you would be better off joining a debate club. If you enjoy writing, you may like it here, and many of us will support you. Read up on the current rules, and I wish you the best of luck.

      1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
        Jessie L Watsonposted 9 days agoin reply to this

        I learn something new about HP everyday. Thank you very much for that. I guess I didn't realize people were making livelihoods out of it. I've been treating my profile like a portfolio without much other thought.

        1. Marisa Wright profile image98
          Marisa Wrightposted 9 days agoin reply to this

          You might find it informative to read my Hub on HubPages Etiquette, which reflects on the different ways Hubbers use HubPages. 

          You will probably never meet the really successful Hubbers because they're too busy writing and self-promoting to get involved in the social side of HubPages at all.

  16. Kierstin Gunsberg profile image100
    Kierstin Gunsbergposted 9 days ago

    What Tess said. I'm here to work. I just want to write great content, help my readers, make my money and move on, so I treat HubPages the same way I would a day-job. Because for me, this IS my day job.

    1. TessSchlesinger profile image96
      TessSchlesingerposted 9 days agoin reply to this

      +1

  17. Jessie L Watson profile image91
    Jessie L Watsonposted 9 days ago

    Will do. But first, define what it means to be a successful Hubber. Is it proportionate to the frequency of quality publishing and earnings? Is it popularity? Is it the point system? I'm using this as a tool for college and sharpening my writing skills. If I can work hard and produce one good article article a week, I feel successful. I haven't read your hub on etiquette yet obviously but if its just a matter of keeping my mouth shut for the most part, I'm way ahead of ya. I don't think forums will benefit me so much here after this thread.

    1. Marisa Wright profile image98
      Marisa Wrightposted 9 days agoin reply to this

      The definition of success is probably a personal thing.  Some people are just happy to find readers within the HubPages community and would consider that a success.

      The way I look at it, however, is to consider why HubPages exists.   It exists to earn money from articles. Therefore HubPages' definition of a successful Hubber will obviously be the one whose articles earn the most money. 

      When I joined HP, it was possible to make a good living here - before the Great Panda Disaster of 2011, I was expecting an income of around $20,000 for that year.  I wouldn't recommend anyone to try to make a living here now, but it can be a useful source of pin money.  It's also a good place to begin, if you're aspiring to make a living online.

      1. Jessie L Watson profile image91
        Jessie L Watsonposted 9 days agoin reply to this

        I can't help but gesture at the fact that I was able to come out of this strange discussion with a better idea of what to do. This is the process I was alluding to from the get-go. I don't know anything about you, but you took time out of your day to help me get my head straight here. That's meaningful to me.

        1. Marisa Wright profile image98
          Marisa Wrightposted 9 days agoin reply to this

          You're welcome.   I started out as a "business Hubber", with my main focus being to earn income.  Nowadays I don't write much here, but the forum is where I come when I'm trying to avoid work - er - when I need a break.

    2. Jean Bakula profile image100
      Jean Bakulaposted 9 days agoin reply to this

      I think it's a great place to sharpen your writing skills. When you write a piece, if it's good enough, it gets "Featured." It will say that on your account page. If it's just so/so and needs work, it will not be "Featured", so you will know it's generally considered an article that needs more work to be improved.

      The score on the Profile page is misleading and really doesn't mean much. Many have asked to have it retired, because it's an arbitrary mystery formula and people get too caught up in it.

      Try to read the rules though. For purposes of improving the site in general, you must use pictures allowed to be used in the public domain. You probably won't use Amazon capsules if you are a writing student, you aren't here to make money selling. If you do make money on your writing, it takes about 6 months or so.

      All said, I feel I've learned a lot about writing here, a passion I never had time to indulge in before I joined HP. I come on the forums because I am fixing up old pieces to get them on niche sites, and don't write much original material anymore. That process takes time as the rules changed and the articles have different requirements than they did six years ago. So between updating and deciding what to move, I socialize now more than I did. Now it's become a way to make money on what I wrote years ago. Marisa is always one of the best sources of information! Best Wishes.

  18. janshares profile image98
    jansharesposted 9 days ago

    Jesse I think it depends on why people are here and how they want to engage in the HP community. Most are here to write. I personally don't have the time, interest or bandwidth for heavy discourse here or anywhere online. I'm primarily here to write, make a few coins and occasionally post in the forums. But I don't hang out there very long, just make a point and leave. I really don't have time for back and forth discourse, even if it's positive and productive.
    I remember years ago when the forums were popping with a lot of negative discourse, I would exit. It would be quite toxic. It's much better now. We encourage and support each other, for the most part.

    1. TessSchlesinger profile image96
      TessSchlesingerposted 9 days agoin reply to this

      +1

 
working