Is this site a 'writing site' - for me it is more.......
- ryankettposted 14 years ago
0Not sure what you are trying to say here, Ryan - of course it is the right platform for people who 'cannot grasp or are unwilling to grasp the concept of SEO.' The beauty of HP is that it is a place for everyone - some people are after SEO hits, others write purely for pleasure, and most fall somewhere between the two. I have some articles that have keywords but others that were written purely for pleasure and I am happy when the odd Hubber drops by and leaves a nice comment. Simply not interested in optimising them
It is not a competition about who has the most 'skill' or has written the most Hubs, but a strong community built upon many different facets. We all need each other; marketers, creative writers, poets, historians and every other person who washes up on the HP shoreline. It all adds to the unique colour of the site
moanalisa: Welcome to HP - it looks like you will settle in just fine with that positive attitude.
Best of luck
HubPages is many things. Primarily, it's a business. And every business cannot exist without a profit.
That fact always needs bearing in mind. Not everything I write is commercial - I couldn't stand myself it it was. I too feel the need to simply write for the sheer pleasure of it.
But I do purposely monetize some of my hubs. Not because I'm a sell out. But because I'd like to put a roof over my head within the next year or so.
However, as much as I love a good yarn, an excellent example of narrative, I also respect and understand the workings of this site.
Without revenue gained from folks that employ at least a modicum of SEO to their hubs, the site would not work quite so smoothly - if at all.
I believe there's room for allThis is what I have always said. Although - I am coming round to the idea that too much of any one type - such as the spammers and empty content providers - can damage the site for other users.
We shall see. The only thing for certain is - tomorrow is not to day.
Merry Xmas you guys.
I'd like to add an interesting slant to all of this ...
If you are writing for hubbers, then yes, you can write for the pure enjoyment of writing. After all, why not share a few good yarns with your friends?
However, if you are here to make some extra cash, then you need to write for the advertisers ... and understanding SEO helps one do that.
Me? I wrote for both worlds as I am in it as much for the community aspect as I am the monetary one.Another thought: By understanding a bit about SEO and backlinking, fiction can be more easily found. I don't make any claims to be great at the marketing side of things, but I have made more than I expected to off of my fun hubs. Sometimes I am amazed at what has made it's way off of this site.
Oh, and one of my most read informational hubs (another account) has made almost nothing... there just aren't any adds to go with it, and people get the information they are looking for right there.What kind of bothers me about this thread is first that it digs up, yet again, the PGrundy issue, which has been well discussed both by Pam, herself, and those sorry to see know she left. The other thing is it pretty much comes across as saying people ought to just be happy and quiet or else leave. Just about all the writing/article sites I've been dealing with for about three years now have drastically changed (and for the better). Still, when a lot of us started writing a few agos these sites told new members, "Write whatever you want to write." Just the other day, I noticed when you sign on here it now says that HubPages is a place where you can write web articles. Those changes aren't bad, because writing/article sites are offering better stuff and higher standards as far as search engines go; but, even with acknowledging that the online-writing business has vastly improved in what's offered (in terms of quality, standards for "web articles" and earning potential for writers); one reality is that for the person who has been doing this for a few years, it can mean that while it was once considered "acceptable" to write, say, an opinion piece about "anything"; today, for the most part, the message is that such pieces aren't particularly encouraged. The message is always, "Well, sure, write whatever you want, of course, but don't expect to earn anything if you do." So, that's the reality. It's not a bad thing. Still, the person who has been building up a ton of things that aren't really "the thing" now is a person who does need to adjust their plans, which can mean either changing what he writes, leaving, or staying and knowing there is little chance of success (because "the way things are is that people want quickie web articles and information about whatever thing they're searching for."
That goes back to the old thing that a person can completely accept and understand how money will be made or "success" in any endeavor will be achieved; not resent it; and yet still find it frustrating that, for a person who writes, the measure of "success" (at least within the context of article/Hub sites) is generally whether someone gets x amount from Google each month. In a lot of work there's no overlap between "the creative" and "the passionate" and the "earnings-focused" workers. Online writing, which presented itself a few years ago as "for writers" is one of those rare situations. It's not inappropriate that a passionate writer would find it disenchanting that writing talent doesn't mean much when it comes to success within this venue. The person can understand the reality "in his head", but whether - in the grand scheme of life - a setting/trend that doesn't value exceptional writing talent is a healthy thing in general, is a fair and appropriate thing to question. The lack of "valuing" of writing talent is something that should be questioned and discussed; because an even newer trend will be that people are going to start doing what I've done, which is get sick of getting crap when I search for information online, and stop thinking there's anything worth searching for.
I think people pretty much adapt. This site (and others) is full of talented writers who probably do the kind of thing I do: I write "standard web articles" for one place or person, whatever I want somewhere else, etc., and am now in the process of shifting everything away from the "old" stuff I've written in the last few years. Other than with the recent PGrundy discussions, in general I don't bellyache about the fact that some of my crappiest writing earns me the most on here. It's all fine. The world is full of work that doesn't require any great talent. There's nothing wrong with good, clean, work that earns whoever wants/needs the money whatever it earns them.
If the question, though, is whether "certain former Hubbers" should have just shut up and said nothing, then - no. I don't think so. People do adapt for as long as they feel like adapting, and then when adapting goes too much against their nature they'll quit. That "certain former Hubber" who quit did just that. I don't see what there is to criticize about that. As far as "not grasping" SEO (etc.), that's just an insult to that one person in question, as well as a lot of others, who can easily "grasp" SEO stuff but who just find it tediously, uninspiringly, boring. That's not a swipe at anyone. I've done more than my share of boring work and been happy to do it (sort of
). But, no, if "adapting" means that a talented writer like PGrundy should have either unhappily stayed or else left without expressing her disenchantment then I don't think either should be expected. You're right. There are Hubbers who have come from print media and who will return to it. I don't think, though, they should have to refrain from expressing themselves any more than someone who is delighted to be earning a few hundred dollars a week on here should keep his delight to himself. I thought this is supposed to be a community where people should be able to express themselves. Expecting HubPages or search engines or anyone else to change how things are done would be too much, but simply expressing one's feelings about how things are done and what is and isn't valued shouldn't be seen as such an out-of-line thing.
To be honest, I don't think "some people's" gripe has anything at all to do with the realities of SEO stuff. I think it has more to do with a community where it can seem as if everyone talks about nothing but SEO stuff and a lot of people often seem oblivious to the fact that some people write from something other than with SEO stuff in mind. I'm not aligning myself with PGrundy or her complaints or writing or anything else. I just think she (and anyone else) had a right to express her dissatisfactions and reasons for leaving. Nobody is going to melt if they hear someone say something negative about HubPages. I think she should be respected for her writing and her choice and not subtly jabbed in the back now that she's not here."attitude"?
Ryan was really helpful and shared information freely. i never saw him as someone who thought he was better than others. i don't see his thread as criticizing or judging. he is just saying what HubPages is about and how it works.
i don't understand how people can simultaneously admonish Ryan for expressing himself while championing others for doing the same thing, only with an opposite viewpoint. i have seen more than a few hubbers on here sniff at successful hubbers, implying they are "sell-outs", "not real writers", etc. and wax on and on about the creative process and how they wouldn't allow themselves to be tainted for a buck.
a writer is a person who gets paid to write. a successful writer is one who makes a lot of money with their writing, which takes skill, ability and talent.
an author is someone who wrote a book and got it published.
why is one person (Pam) noble for leaving and another (Ryan) the spawn of the devil for doing the same thing?
Must admit, I have not seen that type of criticism but I was away from the forums for a while, so take your word for it. I don't like that attitude either - as most people have stated, the key is about maintaining a balance between the two, with everybody bringing their own particular talent to the table.
Most of this artificial divide came about as a result of the first Hub challenge, which caused a big scar that never fully healed.
Hopefully, with fresh ideas, HP can move onwards and upwards.
EDIT: Know what you mean about choosing the right words, cosette - I had trouble the other night. aguasilver came up with commercial and non-commercial, which is good, but then most people fall somewhere between the two
The frog is a wise, sensible, and well respected frog.
Great post, Lisa - How are you, BTW?
This is an argument that is as old as the hills - how many great artists, authors and poets died in poverty, only to become an integral part of culture after their death? Sometimes, you have to have art for art's sake - it enriches our life.
In the other thread, I used the term 'artificial divide' between the commercial and non-commercial writers, because the signs of a division are recent and, IMO, unnecessary. I have learned many great marketing tips from some of the experts on here, and have nothing but respect and gratitude. On the other hand, most of the writers are happy to give tips to those starting out, on how to improve their writing or make a living from the freelance sites. That is how it should be - a community where everybody shares skills and experience.
In addition, many people have gained confidence as writers on HP and have gone on to write books - that is a good thing. I love watching writers develop, grow in confidence and unleash their talent. Unfortunately, their does not appear to be as much call for mentoring on HP, nowadays, and I find that sad. I find little inspiration in the threads where folks express their delight at reaching payout, although I am happy that they are succeeding in something that they want to do.
The unique mix of writing and marketing talent here is the factor that has made HP stand well above the competition. I hope that this symbiosis continues
EDIT: I meant the post before, Lisa, although the greatness of the Frog is always worth a mention!Ryan are you going somewhere? Your avatar is indicative of someone that's about to ride off into the blue yonder. Are you?
I do hope notncmonroe, thanks for the positive feedback on the post that, like so many others I'm guilty of indulging in more often than I should admit, made me wonder if I ever should have posted it. (Welcome to HubPages, by the way, it's a great community and a lot of fun, even if the occasional soap opera does erupt on a seemingly regular basis.
It's all part of having a bunch of different people debating, discussing, and sometimes, I suppose, just signing in after a long day.
You're right. There are some really helpful and knowledgeable Hubbers on here, willing to share (especially with things that some people aren't all that expert on - like SEO stuff, traffic, etc.). It's a supportive community, and maybe the reason those soap operas sometimes break out is that most people care as much as so many do (about one thing or another - their work, Hubs, other Hubbers, the site, itself, earning, whatever there is for people who are not indifferent to get heated about. ) Of course, there is the relatively rare drama that mostly breaks out because someone's had a few too many beers while he Hubs - but that's "a-whole-nother", and not very frequent, thing.
It's a nice site.- cosetteposted 14 years ago0
Yeah, to me this is definately more than just a site where you publish articles. You meet new and interesting people, get to read and interact with all these other authors who essentially have the same goal as you: to get their writing read. You descover other people's views and opinions, find out about other cultures, even, just through what people have written. HubPages is great!
- cosetteposted 14 years ago0
hello Ryan.
Hello
I am off to bed, I will probably say happy christmas to some people soon. Bye.
I agree completely.
Here is my thinking:
The "garbage" junk mail & what-not that pays the bills is a great place to practice with new techniques and learn new software.
When a creative project comes around, I'm ready & waiting. No fussing & screwing around, trying to figure out how to make something work.
With my writing, while I am practicing that also, I'm doing my best with key words & SEO to bring myself some traffic. I'm not getting a lot but I'm surprised at which of my hubs get traffic and which don't. Some that are "personal" and a little obscure are doing pretty good
If traffic is something you are concerned with (and it doesn't have to be) then learn how to incorporate some of the commercial tricks.
To get an audience, as they say, you don't have to sell your soul, but you do have to sell your idea.
I'll second that.
- lyricsingrayposted 14 years ago0
It's a site to create and belong.
Good posts, Yoshi and Sunforged
Hows the pregnancy thing going, SF - hope that everything is progressing smoothly.
Good points, there - I think that most of the HP non-commercial writers understand fully the use of SEO and most do use at least some of the basic techniques, even if we cannot be bothered to spend time backlinking etc.
I am one of those people who has an innate respect for people who have mastered their craft, whether it be writing, blacksmithing or SEO. I have written sales copy for clients and it is very difficult to condense entire paragraphs of thought into a few punchy sentences. I have the same amount of respect for the top commercial writers as for the best writers.
In reality, I don't think that there is much friction between the two 'camps' - it is largely built upon misunderstandings and magnification of small issues into huge barriers. Personally, I think that this split happened after the first challenge and has never completely healed. Think about how you are feeling now, Ryan - undervalued and unappreciated - that is how many of the non-commercial writers felt during that insanity, so you can see where the problems arose. Many fine writers left, or scaled down their participation, and that left many scars.
Richard has proposed some ideas in the other thread - they are worth discussing and I would love to see some input from the new HP marketing team.
Just one other thing, Ryan - I hope that you can take a little constructive criticism, from one Englishman to another. You are a very passionate guy, which is great, but sometimes your posts do come out as very aggressive, which may be why you feel that people are having a go at you - if people perceive aggression, they react accordingly. I had to bite my tongue a couple of times on the other thread, because it felt like you were trying to verbally smash me over the head with your posts. I don't think that was your intention, but I can see how it can put people on the back foot and magnify misunderstandings.
I don't know you, but I have a feeling that you are like sunforged in that your mind is always racing ahead and is ten steps ahead of your typing (must be an SEO writer thing!). I am not trying to judge you - my natural writing style is academic, with short, clipped sentences, and it can come across as very blunt - I have to make an extra effort to make it more reader friendly and use a few smileys and exclamation marks.
Just a suggestionPersonally I don't believe the arguments were ever about 'writers' V's 'marketers' and their hubs, but about the attitudes of each within the forums.
The writers initially boost the egos of the marketers for their knowledge until their egos become inflated to bursting point, forcing the marketers to upload smug-looking cheesy grinning avatars that suggest this person should not be trusted under any circumstances and start conversing with others in an arrogant manner, at this point the marketer is usually only moments away from pushing their first 'I make $1000 in 5 minutes' scam.
I know how boring I sound when I talk SEO, I try not to do it with those who aren't interested.smug too.
yawn.
Incredibly smug, and not to be trusted one bit.*
*And that's me I'm talking about.
How you doing this wet Grey morning, all set for Christmas?
i am toatlly freaking out
i havent one thing done
my kids are sick.....its a lame long story. im in a good mood tho...it will sort out. and you?lol, you'll be fine, it'll all come together at the last moment I'm sure, just make sure you enjoy it more than you stress, if you're into Christmas that is anyway, otherwise do what I do and lock yourself away for the week with a large bag of weed, and a huge stash of munchies, and avoid it like the plague.
Sorry your kids are sick, I'm sure they'll make a full recovery on Christmas day.
Am good thanks, savoring my last 20 mins in bed before I gotta get up and face the cold, lol.I hope your day goes well, the kids may have presented the perfect chance for me to miss the festive bs this year, im sure they will be well soon.
i have more then enough stuff to stay happy at home.How can it not ^.
lol
If I don't catch up with you before, I hope you have a really great one, and a new year better than all that have preceded it.
No doubt you deserve it. xyou too.
ill mail you after the new year and let you know....if you want? take care of yourself xo
Sounds great: Where do I sign
My system is so simple and effective that you don't even need to sign. You simply send me all your money.
Done - One Euro and 37 cents is on its way
We have a couple of spare chickens if you are interested in barteringhmmmmmmm, I'll have to give that some thought, it's a generous offer no doubt, but I'm not sure how that could be worded within my scammy ad campaign. 'I make several spare chickens a day online, and you could too, click here to read my secret!'
But I'll very much enjoy spending your Euro 37 cents, many thanks.No problem - you deserve all that money after all of the hard work you put in.
Maybe this is the start of a new internet marketing scheme - earn 1000 chickens with just an hour of work. In tough economic times, people are beginning to understand the value of a good layer.A good layer is something I've always very much appreciated.
But we just might be onto something here, lets give it some thought and come up with some angles. I'm placing Justine in charge of my share of the chickens, as I'm a little squeamish around them, lol.
- Audreveaposted 14 years ago0
- Audreveaposted 14 years ago0
- lynnechandlerposted 14 years ago0
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