Is this site a 'writing site' - for me it is more.......

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  1. profile image0
    ryankettposted 13 years ago

    I really wanted to share this as an example of how traditional writers, irrespective of their level of talent or area of expertise, need to either a) adapt to online media to become 'successful' on hubpages, or b) choose more traditional offline media as an outlet. This is all very hypothetical of course, but can anybody see at least a little bit of validity in my comments here?

    ps. This is in no way aimed at those quoted, it just helped to put my reply into context for the benefit of this discussion......

    Well in that case it is not a writing site then, its a online content site. This site is geared up towards attracting search engine traffic. If somebody searches for 'large cookie cutters' and finds a hub called 'large cookie cutters' then they have found what they were looking for, what you want to read is irrelevant unless you searched for 'milkshake recipe' and ended up finding the 'large cookie cutters' hub. This is a business, with 7 or 9 employees based on various accounts, each of whom are paid a full time wage to run this site. Add to that bandwith costs, office overheads, etc etc...... and you will find that this site could probably not exist without the people writing about cookie cutters and womans knickers. I write sales pages, 199 more pages than you it seems. You cannot tell me whether or not I can write, especially with the nuber of grammatical errors displayed in your forum post. There is just as much skill and knowledge in creating a successful sales page as there is writing a good poem, if not more.

    To emphasise this point, there are an estimated 91 people per month searching for the term 'Australian Camp Oven' whilst there are 301,000 people per month searching for the term 'Cookie Cutter'. That is precisely my point. I actually make a decent income writing for two print only publications, and I can make the topics as whacky and exotic as possible. If those two magazines have a circulation of 30000 people then I can be confident that 10000+ people will read an article on Australian Camp Ovens. Write that article on hubpages and rely on search engine traffic using no keywords other than 'Australian Camp Oven' and make no attempt to backlink, and you will be lucky to get 1000 views in 10 years.

    If people cannot grasp, or are unwilling to grasp, the concept of SEO then they are 100% publishing on completely the wrong platform. I include Pgrundy in that category, she simply wants to be a print journalist or a published author..... this is a different game. If she ever got a publishing deal, how do you think the publishers would 'promote' and 'market' the book? They would use advertising networks like adwords, retail outlets such as Ottakers who use advertising networks such as adwords, and they ultimately are reliant on marketers to provide the platform from which to display those adverts.

    It is the way that the world goes around, do you think that I publish articles called 'The Best Large Hamster Cages' offline? Of course I dont, it doesnt work there, it works here.

    1. Sufidreamer profile image80
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Not sure what you are trying to say here, Ryan - of course it is the right platform for people who 'cannot grasp or are unwilling to grasp the concept of SEO.' The beauty of HP is that it is a place for everyone - some people are after SEO hits, others write purely for pleasure, and most fall somewhere between the two. I have some articles that have keywords but others that were written purely for pleasure and I am happy when the odd Hubber drops by and leaves a nice comment. Simply not interested in optimising them smile

      It is not a competition about who has the most 'skill' or has written the most Hubs, but a strong community built upon many different facets. We all need each other; marketers, creative writers, poets, historians and every other person who washes up on the HP shoreline. It all adds to the unique colour of the site smile

      moanalisa: Welcome to HP - it looks like you will settle in just fine with that positive attitude.

      Best of luck smile

    2. profile image0
      ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I have read every response to this, and taken them on board, and I will never consider this post to be in any way offensive. This is fully representative of my views, it is an opinion, and forms the basis of my departure.

  2. frogdropping profile image80
    frogdroppingposted 13 years ago

    HubPages is many things. Primarily, it's a business. And every business cannot exist without a profit.

    That fact always needs bearing in mind. Not everything I write is commercial - I couldn't stand myself it it was. I too feel the need to simply write for the sheer pleasure of it.

    But I do purposely monetize some of my hubs. Not because I'm a sell out. But because I'd like to put a roof over my head within the next year or so.

    However, as much as I love a good yarn, an excellent example of narrative, I also respect and understand the workings of this site.

    Without revenue gained from folks that employ at least a modicum of SEO to their hubs, the site would not work quite so smoothly - if at all.

    I believe there's room for all smile

    1. Mark Knowles profile image57
      Mark Knowlesposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      This is what I have always said. Although - I am coming round to the idea that too much of any one type - such as the spammers and empty content providers - can damage the site for other users.

      We shall see. The only thing for certain is - tomorrow is not to day. big_smile

      Merry Xmas you guys. big_smile

    2. anime_nanet profile image60
      anime_nanetposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I completely agree with frog.

      Some hubs like Random Anime Ramblings are just that... Text written on a whim with absolutely no SEO concerns whatsoever.

      But there are others, of course, that I do take SEO, Keywords, CPC and all that very seriously... Altough Anime doesn't give  a lot of ROI (everybody expects to pay zilch for entertainment online) I have another account where I ponder all those factors quite a lot before publishing a Hub.

    3. Mrvoodoo profile image56
      Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      They got to you too didn't they, they won't rest until they've got us all.  big_smile

  3. Ivorwen profile image67
    Ivorwenposted 13 years ago

    Thank you, Ryankett, for posting this.  It is exactly what my sister and I have been discussing lately, in regards to writing on-line. 

    I recently realized that advertising is the name of the game, no matter what business you are in.  The ability to sell your idea and carry through on the promise is what makes a business do well.  If you are write a manuscript, you have to pursue a publisher or self publish and then advertise what you have written.  To learn SEO and backlinking is the way you advertise on-line. 

    You can be the best writer in the world, but if people can't find what you have written, then they can't read it.

  4. yoshi97 profile image57
    yoshi97posted 13 years ago

    I'd like to add an interesting slant to all of this ...

    If you are writing for hubbers, then yes, you can write for the pure enjoyment of writing. After all, why not share a few good yarns with your friends?

    However, if you are here to make some extra cash, then you need to write for the advertisers ... and understanding SEO helps one do that.

    Me? I wrote for both worlds as I am in it as much for the community aspect as I am the monetary one. smile

  5. moanalisa profile image61
    moanalisaposted 13 years ago

    For each it may be different. I truly respect your opinions.

    Me-yes, I want to make money, too, but that is secondary to finding a commminity to where I can share expressions. Do I need the money? You bet! I am trying desperately to save up to move out of state where my older daughter is.

    Having a sense of desperation doesn't necessarily mean that the quality is lacking, nor that I'm sup-par on intelligence. This is a venue of expression that I feel has decent potential that I intend to pursue to it's fullest.

    You do sound very discouraged and let down, although I do not understand why, nor the circumstances.

    All I can say is that NOBODY controls your destiny but YOU. Life is full of ups and downs and it's how you choose to make the most of them that matters in the longrun.

    Hold your chin up. I am.

    Best regards!

  6. Ivorwen profile image67
    Ivorwenposted 13 years ago

    Another thought:  By understanding a bit about SEO and backlinking, fiction can be more easily found.  I don't make any claims to be great at the marketing side of things, but I have made more than I expected to off of my fun hubs.  Sometimes I am amazed at what has made it's way off of this site.  smile

    Oh, and one of my most read informational hubs (another account) has made almost nothing... there just aren't any adds to go with it, and people get the information they are looking for right there.

  7. Susana S profile image93
    Susana Sposted 13 years ago

    I think this thread is about justifying your own work Ryan. There are many places for a writer to write and many ways to sell our writing. None is better than another.

    Your attitude in the last few weeks has indicated that you think you're better than others and that is not a nice quality to have. You may be doing well here and that's great, but that doesn't give you the right to criticize and judge other writers on their preferences, dreams or ambitions.

    Writers write here for different reasons and to each their own!

    1. Lisa HW profile image62
      Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      What kind of bothers me about this thread is first that it digs up, yet again, the PGrundy issue, which has been well discussed both by Pam, herself, and those sorry to see know she left.  The other thing is it pretty much comes across as saying people ought to just be happy and quiet or else leave.  Just about all the writing/article sites I've been dealing with for about three years now have drastically changed (and for the better).  Still, when a lot of us started writing a few agos these sites told new members, "Write whatever you want to write."  Just the other day, I noticed when you sign on here it now says that HubPages is a place where you can write web articles.  Those changes aren't bad, because writing/article sites are offering better stuff and higher standards as far as search engines go; but, even with acknowledging that the online-writing business has vastly improved in what's offered (in terms of quality, standards for "web articles" and earning potential for writers); one reality is that for the person who has been doing this for a few years, it can mean that while it was once considered "acceptable" to write, say, an opinion piece about "anything"; today, for the most part, the message is that such pieces aren't particularly encouraged.  The message is always, "Well, sure, write whatever you want, of course, but don't expect to earn anything if you do."  So, that's the reality.  It's not a bad thing.  Still, the person who has been building up a ton of things that aren't really "the thing" now is a person who does need to adjust their plans, which can mean either changing what he writes, leaving, or staying and knowing there is little chance of success (because "the way things are is that people want quickie web articles and information about whatever thing they're searching for."

      That goes back to the old thing that a person can completely accept and understand how money will be made or "success" in any endeavor will be achieved; not resent it; and yet still find it frustrating that, for a person who writes, the measure of "success" (at least within the context of article/Hub sites) is generally whether someone gets x amount from Google each month.   In a lot of work there's no overlap between "the creative" and "the passionate" and the "earnings-focused" workers.  Online writing, which presented itself a few years ago as "for writers" is one of those rare situations.  It's not inappropriate that a passionate writer would find it disenchanting that writing talent doesn't mean much when it comes to success within this venue.  The person can understand the reality "in his head", but whether - in the grand scheme of life - a setting/trend that doesn't value exceptional writing talent is a healthy thing in general, is a fair and appropriate thing to question.  The lack of "valuing" of writing talent is something that should be questioned and discussed; because an even newer trend will be that people are going to start doing what I've done, which is get sick of getting crap when I search for information online, and stop thinking there's anything worth searching for.

      I think people pretty much adapt.  This site (and others) is full of talented writers who probably do the kind of thing I do:  I write "standard web articles" for one place or person, whatever I want somewhere else, etc., and am now in the process of shifting everything away from the "old" stuff I've written in the last few years.  Other than with the recent PGrundy discussions, in general I don't bellyache about the fact that some of my crappiest writing earns me the most on here.   It's all fine.  The world is full of work that doesn't require any great talent.  There's nothing wrong with good, clean, work that earns whoever wants/needs the money whatever it earns them. 

      If the question, though, is whether "certain former Hubbers" should have just shut up and said nothing, then  - no.  I don't think so.  People do adapt for as long as they feel like adapting, and then when adapting goes too much against their nature they'll quit.  That "certain former Hubber" who quit did just that.  I don't see what there is to criticize about that.  As far as "not grasping" SEO (etc.), that's just an insult to that one person in question, as well as a lot of others, who can easily "grasp" SEO stuff but who just find it tediously, uninspiringly, boring.  That's not a swipe at anyone.  I've done more than my share of boring work and been happy to do it (sort of hmm).  But, no, if "adapting" means that a talented writer like PGrundy should have either unhappily stayed or else left without expressing her disenchantment then I don't think either should be expected.  You're right.  There are Hubbers who have come from print media and who will return to it.  I don't think, though, they should have to refrain from expressing themselves any more than someone who is delighted to be earning a few hundred dollars a week on here should keep his delight to himself.  I thought this is supposed to be a community where people should be able to express themselves.  Expecting HubPages or search engines or anyone else to change how things are done would be too much, but simply expressing one's feelings about how things are done and what is and isn't valued shouldn't be seen as such an out-of-line thing.

      To be honest, I don't think "some people's" gripe has anything at all to do with the realities of SEO stuff.  I think it has more to do with a community where it can seem as if everyone talks about nothing but SEO stuff and a lot of people often seem oblivious to the fact that some people write from something other than with SEO stuff in mind.  I'm not aligning myself with PGrundy or her complaints or writing or anything else.  I just think she (and anyone else) had a right to express her dissatisfactions and reasons for leaving.  Nobody is going to melt if they hear someone say something negative about HubPages.  I think she should be respected for her writing and her choice and not subtly jabbed in the back now that she's not here.

      1. ncmonroe1981 profile image60
        ncmonroe1981posted 13 years agoin reply to this


        Though I have not been here long, and I am not fully aware of "The PGrundy Issue" (although it sounds like it would make a great episode in a soap opera), I really enjoyed reading what you have to say about success, adapting, being honest...well all of it.

        SEO IS boring (at least to me). I understand quite a lot about how it works, and as I have time, I am glad to have the opportunity, through this community, to create focused, informative, SEO optimized, and potentially profitable articles. However, I Am also glad to have a place where I can publish "other" stuff, share it with friends, and be a part of a community of ALL KINDS of writers.

        My initial foray to Hubpages had nothing at all to do with making money. In fact, I was surprised and overjoyed to find that it was possible to do. My whole intention when I joined was to compile a "portfolio" of sorts that I could easily share with other people (especially clients), to find other like-minded people with whom to interact, and to read other creative stuff! So for me, my experience with HubPages has already been a major success!! Any money I might make in the future is just a happy side effect.

        Of course, this kind of money-making is not my full-time job either; I have other writing-related sources of income. I understand that quite a few people have worked exceptionally hard to make the kind of money they make with this vehicle, who may depend on being able to continue to make that kind of money, and for whom that is the major purpose of HubPages. Excellent! Those people certainly (and obviously) earn the money they have made through hard, consistent, and often highly creative, work. They deserve their paychecks, and I can probably learn a lot from them, too (just like I can learn from the other types of writers here).

        The diversity of interests, perspectives, and approaches is exactly what attracted me to HubPages. This community has the potential and flexibility to be many things to different people while still helping to create connections between between them. Fascinating stuff! It wouldn't be what it is without these many faces.

    2. profile image0
      cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this


      Ryan was really helpful and shared information freely. i never saw him as someone who thought he was better than others. i don't see his thread as criticizing or judging. he is just saying what HubPages is about and how it works.

      i don't understand how people can simultaneously admonish Ryan for expressing himself while championing others for doing the same thing, only with an opposite viewpoint. i have seen more than a few hubbers on here sniff at successful hubbers, implying they are "sell-outs", "not real writers", etc. and wax on and on about the creative process and how they wouldn't allow themselves to be tainted for a buck.

      a writer is a person who gets paid to write. a successful writer is one who makes a lot of money with their writing, which takes skill, ability and talent.

      an author is someone who wrote a book and got it published.

      why is one person (Pam) noble for leaving and another (Ryan) the spawn of the devil for doing the same thing?


      1. ncmonroe1981 profile image60
        ncmonroe1981posted 13 years agoin reply to this

        While I agree with, and respect, the general tone of your response, I disagree on only one point.

        A writer is someone who writes. I contend that I was a writer long before anything I wrote made any money. So was Stephen King, and probably, so were you. (By the way, my disagreement does not in any way imply that I expect you to adopt my definition...that's just a different POV's definition).

        But, I think this is just indicative of the whole bigger issue. As you've pointed out, each person needs to be able to express themselves openly, and we each need to be able to accept that other people define things in different ways.

        As one of my teachers says, "We can disagree and still be friends."

      2. Sufidreamer profile image80
        Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Must admit, I have not seen that type of criticism but I was away from the forums for a while, so take your word for it. I don't like that attitude either - as most people have stated, the key is about maintaining a balance between the two, with everybody bringing their own particular talent to the table.

        Most of this artificial divide came about as a result of the first Hub challenge, which caused a big scar that never fully healed.

        Hopefully, with fresh ideas, HP can move onwards and upwards. smile

        EDIT: Know what you mean about choosing the right words, cosette - I had trouble the other night. aguasilver came up with commercial and non-commercial, which is good, but then most people fall somewhere between the two hmm

        1. phoenixinforums profile image60
          phoenixinforumsposted 13 years agoin reply to this


          1. livewithrichard profile image75
            livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            That statement is what has brought us here.  How are articles written to sell less "real" than any other article?

            1. Marisa Wright profile image89
              Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              If they are written with very little text and a huge number of advertising capsules, then they are not "real" articles, IMO.  They are advertising pitches. They have a place on HubPages because they earn good money and they help keep the site running for the rest of us, so I have no problem with them.

              1. livewithrichard profile image75
                livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                I get that Marisa but I don't agree they are not "real" articles.  Now if you had said something about the mainly picture hubs, I would say those are not articles.  My best earning article on this site only has 400 words but it's received nearly 5000 page views since I wrote it a month ago and it has earned me close to $80 across several programs. PM me Marisa if you want to know which one it is (don't want everyone here to copy it)

                When you do a Google search for "hubpages" this is the summary text that shows up: HubPages is your online space to share your advice, reviews, useful tips, opinions and insights with hundreds of other authors. HubPages is completely free, ...  It says nothing about publishing short stories or poetry or that its a site for "quality" writers. Seems to me that it's a site for anyone that can put some words together.

                The statement I quoted from Phoenixforums seems to imply that people that "write" advertisements (Copywriters) have a lesser value or lesser skill than those that write whatever the heck "real" articles  I know it takes great skill to write copy and I'm very sure that my articles are "real." (I know nobody here has suggested that they aren't)
                Seems the person that made the statement has since removed it.

                1. Marisa Wright profile image89
                  Marisa Wrightposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  In my book, 350-400 words is still an article. It's towards the shorter end of the spectrum, but it 's long enough to contain solid information on a topic.

                  The kind of Hubs I'm thinking of are the 100 to 250 word Hubs covered in Amazon or eBay ads.  I'm not belittling the skill of people who are able to write good advertising copy - which is what these Hubs are - but I wouldn't call them articles.

        2. livewithrichard profile image75
          livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Hey Sufi, check out this post:  It's a suggestion I made in the hopes of bridging the gap between the commercial and non-commercial hubbers. Like to know what you think.

        3. profile image0
          cosetteposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          oOo....i like that.

    3. profile image0
      ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this


      I just want you to know that it was this was the post which confirmed, in my mind, that I was writing in the wrong place. I will never see how this response relates in any way to my original post, this has left me completely drained and disollusioned. You need to ask yourself who is being critical or judgemental, I have completely reassessed my position and this was the final nail. Maybe I could encourage you to reread my post, and for you to clarify and re-evaluate your exact position, as this did upset me greatly. This was, in my opinion, completely uncalled for and irrelevant to my hypothetical and open-ended post.

      And this is from somebody who writes hubs about SEO, Page Rank, Serps? Well you seem to have got your own way, you wont need to encounter me again - that must be a great outcome for you. I learnt a little of what I know about SEO from your work, it seems that you are not even willing to justify your own work (does that hurt?).

      1. Susana S profile image93
        Susana Sposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Hi Ryan,
        Firstly can I just say I'm really sorry to have upset you. I wouldn't want you to leave hubpages because of a poorly expressed and overly blunt forum post. That wasn't my intention, so I certainly don't feel like I have got my own way.

        I guess I was just feeling cross with you and your comments about Pam Grundy being petulent for leaving and then going into (what seemed to me) a post about how HP is only for writers that want to sell products, are willing to learn about SEO and are clever enough to do so. My perception of what you wrote was "join my club or f off".

        You may or may not have meant it in that way, but that kind of attitude is completely opposed to my own view of HP because I believe HP has plenty of room for all writers regardless of their level of skill, how many hubs they have, what they choose to write on and whether they would be regarded as successful or not. There is no right way or wrong way to hub - just different ways. People will also choose to leave for a miriad of reasons that are personally valid to them.

        These are the parts of your original post that I found offensive and my thoughts about them:

        You put in this disclaimer at the beginning that the series of posts made by yourself, lynnechandler and chucky12 taken from the Pgrundy is leaving thread, was not aimed at those posters. Then IMO went on to be pretty rude towards them.

        I didn't know it was a competition.

        Who is telling you whether you can write or not? Why be condescending about someone's grammar?

        Fit in or f off?

        It was these statements that I saw as condescending that led me to the conclusion that you felt you were somehow better than other hubbers and had a need to justify what you write on. I had also seen several other comments made by you in the last few weeks that I perceived as coming from a similar vein.

        These are the thoughts I had but I am completely open to being totally wrong in my perceptions. After all we don't have the benefit of reading body language, tone of voice etc when communicating online. There's also the massive issue of projection and the added potential to misinterpret what someone means by what they write. Maybe I was projecting onto you some of my own angst.

        Whatever the ins and outs of the dynamics of the exchange, how I chose to express my opinion was far too harsh and I'm extremely sorry for any hurt that I caused you. I do hope that you can accept my apology.


        1. blue dog profile image60
          blue dogposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          okay, ryan, that seems rather big of susana.  hopefully you will see what she is expressing as nothing more than an opinion - we all have them. 

          hopefully you'll let it all slide off your back and return to being a vital, if not essential, component to this writing community.

  8. ncmonroe1981 profile image60
    ncmonroe1981posted 13 years ago

    In my humble opinion:

    The beauty of Hubpages lies in the freedom to go either way. One can just as easily publish an article totally unrelated to business or monetization--let's say, an artistic Hub. Or one can publish Hubs specifically designed to make money. One can make some Hubs of one type and some of the other. A really creative writer can find interesting ways to monetize the articles that are also about their passions and combine these two aspects of Hubpages.

    It's all going to be based on each individual's needs, talents, and desires. There's no need to define Hubpages, every person here will do that for themselves.

  9. moanalisa profile image61
    moanalisaposted 13 years ago

    As a newcomer, it's very overwhelming to try and understand and digest everything from backlinks, to SEO, to setting up ADSense, etc. I hear over and over again, if you don't follow this, you are not likely to make anything.

    Yes, that's highly discouraging to me. I'll deal with each step one at a time. The key thing here for me is that I KNOW I won't get rich overnight, nor do I expect to. It's an investment of sorts. At the same time, I DO enjoy the community.

    While I love to watch the page views go from a meager 66 to 67, I know that ultimately it isn't what matters if I intend to make any sort of supplimental income.

    The bottom line remains the same for me. I feel thrilled if what I write reaches an audience where they find it helpful and meaningful. That sort of help wasn't there for me before, so to do so for others does mean a great deal to me.

    Again, all my best to all!

  10. Lisa HW profile image62
    Lisa HWposted 13 years ago

    The frog is a wise, sensible, and well respected frog.   smile

  11. Sufidreamer profile image80
    Sufidreamerposted 13 years ago

    Great post, Lisa - How are you, BTW?

    This is an argument that is as old as the hills - how many great artists, authors and poets died in poverty, only to become an integral part of culture after their death? Sometimes, you have to have art for art's sake - it enriches our life.

    In the other thread, I used the term 'artificial divide' between the commercial and non-commercial writers, because the signs of a division are recent and, IMO, unnecessary. I have learned many great marketing tips from some of the experts on here, and have nothing but respect and gratitude. On the other hand, most of the writers are happy to give tips to those starting out, on how to improve their writing or make a living from the freelance sites. That is how it should be - a community where everybody shares skills and experience. smile

    In addition, many people have gained confidence as writers on HP and have gone on to write books - that is a good thing. I love watching writers develop, grow in confidence and unleash their talent. Unfortunately, their does not appear to be as much call for mentoring on HP, nowadays, and I find that sad. I find little inspiration in the threads where folks express their delight at reaching payout, although I am happy that they are succeeding in something that they want to do.

    The unique mix of writing and marketing talent here is the factor that has made HP stand well above the competition. I hope that this symbiosis continues smile

    EDIT: I meant the post before, Lisa, although the greatness of the Frog is always worth a mention! big_smile

  12. frogdropping profile image80
    frogdroppingposted 13 years ago

    Ryan are you going somewhere? Your avatar is indicative of someone that's about to ride off into the blue yonder. Are you?

    I do hope not smile

    1. sunforged profile image73
      sunforgedposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      That is what his profile message suggests

      1. profile image0
        EmpressFelicityposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Blimey, it does too.  That took me by surprise.

  13. Lisa HW profile image62
    Lisa HWposted 13 years ago

    ncmonroe, thanks for the positive feedback on the post that, like so many others I'm guilty of indulging in more often than I should admit, made me wonder if I ever should have posted it.   (Welcome to HubPages, by the way, it's a great community and a lot of fun, even if the occasional soap opera does erupt on a seemingly regular basis.  lol  It's all part of having a bunch of different people debating, discussing, and sometimes, I suppose, just signing in after a long day.  lol

    You're right.  There are some really helpful and knowledgeable Hubbers on here, willing to share (especially with things that some people aren't all that expert on - like SEO stuff, traffic, etc.).  It's a supportive community, and maybe the reason those soap operas sometimes break out is that most people care as much as so many do (about one thing or another - their work, Hubs, other Hubbers, the site, itself, earning, whatever there is for people who are not indifferent to get heated about. )  Of course, there is the relatively rare drama that mostly breaks out because someone's had a few too many beers while he Hubs - but that's "a-whole-nother", and not very frequent, thing.
    lol   It's a nice site.

    1. ncmonroe1981 profile image60
      ncmonroe1981posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Lisa! Thanks for the welcome! I wish now I hadn't made my name ncmonroe1981...I thought I would  able to change what was shown on my profile, and use that as my username when I logged in. Whoops. Anyway, please feel free to call me Carmen, if you can remember it.

      I certainly understand what you mean about second-guessing a post--I have done it myself. You also made a great point about the things people get heated about. I often have to remind myself (if I feel myself getting sucked into an argument) that the person on the other side feels JUST as strongly (and probably with at least as much justification as I do) about their side of things, whatever that side is.

      But even though I'm constantly trying to look at the other side of coins; I always love to see someone really standing up for something they think or believe, and communicating it well. I'll have to go check out your hubs.

  14. profile image0
    cosetteposted 13 years ago

    well that is true.

    i was going to say "professional writer" but that makes some people go all crazy, so i just said "writer".

    but you're right. a writer is a writer to the core.

    1. ncmonroe1981 profile image60
      ncmonroe1981posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I do understand, and I know exactly what you mean!

  15. DaniellaWood profile image77
    DaniellaWoodposted 13 years ago

    Yeah, to me this is definately more than just a site where you publish articles. You meet new and interesting people, get to read and interact with all these other authors who essentially have the same goal as you: to get their writing read. You descover other people's views and opinions, find out about other cultures, even, just through what people have written. HubPages is great! big_smile

  16. EYEAM4ANARCHY profile image74
    EYEAM4ANARCHYposted 13 years ago

    It amazes me that people take these forums so seriously. It's silly that quality writers have left the site because someone told them it was somehow wrong not to try and make money with their writing or because of a "backlash" against people that do make money on some dopey forum thread. I really couldn't care less what some guy on a message board says.

    I write mostly on HP because, out of all the writing sites I've found, they have the best format to write and to support that writing with extra content like videos, pics, polls etc. I promote the stuff I write because I'd rather have more than me and my girlfriend read it. If I make money in the process without compromising the integrity of my writing, I'm perfectly happy with that.

    I don't write spammy garbage because anybody with half a brain can see right through that anyway. Which is why the vast majority of the people that show up on HP are asking a week later why they aren't making any money and gone after two weeks. 

    You can go a long way in promoting your work without compromising the quality. You can also write stuff with the intent of earning a living and provide actual quality content. Making money isn't inherently bad, nor is it the end-all be-all purpose of writing online. Anybody who disagrees with either of those opinions can easily be ignored.

  17. profile image0
    cosetteposted 13 years ago

    hello Ryan. smile

    1. profile image0
      ryankettposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Hello smile I am off to bed, I will probably say happy christmas to some people soon. Bye.

  18. rebekahELLE profile image86
    rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago

    HP pays out mega bucks to google to advertise in different markets. the ad that brought me in talked about publishing your writing. of course, it's a writing site, but there are multiple ways of writing.

    on HP about us page, this is how they describe themselves:

    HubPages is the most rewarding place to publish, discover and interact with people who share your interests. Anyone can be a part of the HubPages community, a leading source of answers and expert content on the web, where even new authors can enjoy hundreds or even thousands of readers. Authors can even earn money through online ads displayed on their hubs. The site's easy-to-use features allow authors to include pictures, videos, links, polls, quizzes and more in their hubs without needing to know any Web programming. All of this is provided free to HubPages authors in an open online community, which enjoys over 17 million visitors monthly.

    on the same page (which is at the bottom of every single page on this site, 'about us')

    there's more on the same page in the right column where it says 'more about hubpages'

  19. Pearldiver profile image68
    Pearldiverposted 13 years ago


    It is disappointing to see those who have grafted so hard and been highly respected for that and their interaction with others; make excuses for or blame others for, a personal decision they have made for other reasons.
    Whatever your reasons for writing here were; you are richer in experience, traffic, friendship and self esteem, having had the association with HP and other writers here.
    Strategically, setting a base of hubs here and gaining the associated links and readership which in turn provides a springboard to other endeavours is openly encouraged by HP and in that respect gives kudos to the site.
    Factually, thousands have done this and have 'left' leaving their works to continue earning for both the site and themselves. No Problem.
    However, as an HP writer of little consequence with just a smidgeon of commercial and personal acuman; I find your parting shots to be immature and disrespectful. You have enjoyed exceptionally good things as a writer here and this has also occurred as a result of the efforts of staff and us (all those other contributors that also bring traffic here - beit 1 or 10000 views).
    If one makes a practical decision, don't cloud it with emotional irrelevancies. Why would you insult us with such BS?

    -"I no longer write on hubpages, having seen a lot of people in their true colours, I continue to publish offline and online. Check out my new blog!"

    You have not seen anyone here in their true colours Ryan; it's a virtual community - unless of course you have physically had the opportunity in person. Just as we have not had the opportunity to meet you personally.
    Like many others, I've 'followed' you for months Ryan - something that certainly is not reciprocal, but adds to your overall kudos.  I do not think that you have looked at your remarks practically and I suggest that you do.

    The intimation made within your statement; when viewed by a reader, suggests that the site and your 'followers' and other writers are a blight on your reputation! This is not the case at all.

    Have a good xmas and change your wording if indeed you are the genuine one that you have promoted yourself to be.
    No skin off my nose mate; whether you accept what I say or not. It is Your Reputation that Your Words are damaging; Just don't tar us and the site that helped you; with a brush of insincere arrogance. Take care and gOOd luck.

  20. yoshi97 profile image57
    yoshi97posted 13 years ago

    Is this site a 'writing site' - for me it is more.......

    If it was more, Ryan, then why did you chose to leave?

    When people go to college they don;t all go to study the same course nor do they all graduate to the same jobs. Everyone here, without exception, is here for different and personal reasons, and we all need to be sensitive to that.

    If someone wants to log into Hubpages and write nothing but love poems, I have no problem with that. Would I read them? I'm not into such works, but I'm willing to bet me golden egret that there are those who aren't particularly fond of everything I write.

    However, what matters is that a person can write as they chose for the reasons they chose. If that is meant to change then HP needs to establish a doctrine on the front page that says we all must write a particular type of article and all those unwilling to do so must leave. To date, I have seen no such doctrine created.

    I said my piece to others who have left before and now I will bestow the same wisdom upon you ... If you leave you will be forgotten with time and the grass will grow over all you ever accomplished, as one human being does not determine the success of any site; HOWEVER, if you stay then you continue to make an indelible mark that others will always be able to see.

    We walk backwards slower than we can walk forward for a reason ... we were all created to keep making forward progress.

    It's beyond a postured position of whether you will stay or whether you will go ... it comes down to this ... did anything ever matter here to you? If it did, then I can't see how you could possibly leave it all behind to mend your pride.

    Consider your decision ... if for only a day ... then decide if it ever really mattered. Your heart will tell you what you need to do from there ...

  21. sunforged profile image73
    sunforgedposted 13 years ago

    Yoshi is a hard act to follow, impossible even.

    So on a completely unrelated tangent, I keep seeing terms like "professional writer", "commercial," "non commercial" , 'seo writing" thrown around...trying to define and even dictate a quality difference between them all.

    In defense of seo writing

    I would like to point out that it takes a lot of creativity and a large vocabulary to "tweak" and optimize any article. I know a lot of people just use the automatic choices provided by the adwords tool but such a method doesnt allow for the use of synonyms and phrases with similar meaning. Realizing that the artsy title of "reach for the stars" may be better served as "achieve your goals" involves flexibility and understanding of the mindset of your viewer.

    Its far easier to write what you want, how you want, in whatever style you like than it is to adapt and creatively integrate the words that will make your writing visible to the search world without sounding like Bob Dole (thanks Ben).."buy good ipod, I said buy good ipod" ...and then to be able to rewrite similar content as part of your backlink campaigns while still making it a unique piece with its own style and voice to meet the needs of your audience at each site or search term.

    I think that takes a whole lot of creativity. I also think artists who are not reacting to an audience have to be happy with whatever audience they get.

    I am and have been heavily entrenched in the art world, my first businesses and my journey that led me to any online activities involved promoting art. Most skilled artists have this conception that they can create beauty (or there conception of such)  and it is their right to expect the masses to clamor for it. Sure, sounds great, sign me up too.

    That attitude is fine, but dont call me asking for a loan so you can buy some more primer or cant pay for the storage space for all your unsold works.

    Im a firm believer in art for arts sake and include writing in the world of arts, but sometimes you have to design a couple of business cards or layout a flyer, that does not mean you or your work is of any less does mean you have the extra ability to be flexible and are not the slave of your own creations.

    A professional in the creative arts is someone who is not waiting for inspiration.

    1. yoshi97 profile image57
      yoshi97posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'd say the follow up was great! smile

    2. wyanjen profile image73
      wyanjenposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I agree completely.

      Here is my thinking:
      The "garbage" junk mail & what-not that pays the bills is a great place to practice with new techniques and learn new software.

      When a creative project comes around, I'm ready & waiting. No fussing & screwing around, trying to figure out how to make something work. smile

      With my writing, while I am practicing that also, I'm doing my best with key words & SEO to bring myself some traffic. I'm not getting a lot but I'm surprised at which of my hubs get traffic and which don't. Some that are "personal" and a little obscure are doing pretty good smile

      If traffic is something you are concerned with (and it doesn't have to be) then learn how to incorporate some of the commercial tricks.

      To get an audience, as they say, you don't have to sell your soul, but you do have to sell your idea.

  22. rebekahELLE profile image86
    rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago

    we have some smart, generous hubbers here, great words, guys.

    1. livewithrichard profile image75
      livewithrichardposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      I'll second that.  smile

  23. profile image0
    lyricsingrayposted 13 years ago

    It's a site to create and belong. big_smile

  24. Sufidreamer profile image80
    Sufidreamerposted 13 years ago

    Good posts, Yoshi and Sunforged

    Hows the pregnancy thing going, SF - hope that everything is progressing smoothly. smile

    Good points, there - I think that most of the HP non-commercial writers understand fully the use of SEO and most do use at least some of the basic techniques, even if we cannot be bothered to spend time backlinking etc.

    I am one of those people who has an innate respect for people who have mastered their craft, whether it be writing, blacksmithing or SEO. I have written sales copy for clients and it is very difficult to condense entire paragraphs of thought into a few punchy sentences. I have the same amount of respect for the top commercial writers as for the best writers.

    In reality, I don't think that there is much friction between the two 'camps' - it is largely built upon misunderstandings and magnification of small issues into huge barriers. Personally, I think that this split happened after the first challenge and has never completely healed. Think about how you are feeling now, Ryan - undervalued and unappreciated - that is how many of the non-commercial writers felt during that insanity, so you can see where the problems arose. Many fine writers left, or scaled down their participation, and that left many scars.

    Richard has proposed some ideas in the other thread - they are worth discussing and I would love to see some input from the new HP marketing team.

    Just one other thing, Ryan - I hope that you can take a little constructive criticism, from one Englishman to another. You are a very passionate guy, which is great, but sometimes your posts do come out as very aggressive, which may be why you feel that people are having a go at you - if people perceive aggression, they react accordingly. I had to bite my tongue a couple of times on the other thread, because it felt like you were trying to verbally smash me over the head with your posts. I don't think that was your intention, but I can see how it can put people on the back foot and magnify misunderstandings.

    I don't know you, but I have a feeling that you are like sunforged in that your mind is always racing ahead and is ten steps ahead of your typing (must be an SEO writer thing!). I am not trying to judge you - my natural writing style is academic, with short, clipped sentences, and it can come across as very blunt - I have to make an extra effort to make it more reader friendly and use a few smileys and exclamation marks.

    Just a suggestion smile

  25. Mrvoodoo profile image56
    Mrvoodooposted 13 years ago

    Personally I don't believe the arguments were ever about 'writers' V's 'marketers' and their hubs, but about the attitudes of each within the forums. 

    The writers initially boost the egos of the marketers for their knowledge until their egos become inflated to bursting point, forcing the marketers to upload smug-looking cheesy grinning avatars that suggest this person should not be trusted under any circumstances and start conversing with others in an arrogant manner, at this point the marketer is usually only moments away from pushing their first 'I make $1000 in 5 minutes' scam.

    I know how boring I sound when I talk SEO, I try not to do it with those who aren't interested. big_smile

    1. profile image0
      Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      smug too.
      yawn.   wink

      1. Mrvoodoo profile image56
        Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        Incredibly smug, and not to be trusted one bit.*

        *And that's me I'm talking about. wink

        How you doing this wet Grey morning, all set for Christmas?

        1. profile image0
          Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

          i am toatlly freaking out
          i havent one thing done
          my kids are sick.....its a lame long story. im in a good mood will sort out. and you?

          1. Mrvoodoo profile image56
            Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            lol, you'll be fine, it'll all come together at the last moment I'm sure, just make sure you enjoy it more than you stress, if you're into Christmas that is anyway, otherwise do what I do and lock yourself away for the week with a large bag of weed, and a huge stash of munchies, and avoid it like the plague. wink

            Sorry your kids are sick, I'm sure they'll make a full recovery on Christmas day.

            Am good thanks, savoring my last 20 mins in bed before I gotta get up and face the cold, lol. smile

            1. profile image0
              Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

              I hope your day goes well,  the kids may have presented the perfect chance for me to miss the festive bs this year, im sure they will be well soon.
              i have more then enough stuff to stay happy at home.  wink

              1. profile image0
                bloodnlatexposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                Sorry to hear about your kids.  Mine just got over strep.  I'm glad you're in a good mood though!

                1. profile image0
                  Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  smile how could I not be? im glorious.....

                  1. profile image0
                    bloodnlatexposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    You're damn right you are!

              2. Mrvoodoo profile image56
                Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                How can it not ^. big_smile lol

                If I don't catch up with you before, I hope you have a really great one, and a new year better than all that have preceded it.

                No doubt you deserve it. x

                1. profile image0
                  Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  you too.  smile ill mail you after the new year and let you know....if you want? take care of yourself xo

                  1. Mrvoodoo profile image56
                    Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    Sounds good, gotta go get dressed, brush teeth etc. then go lift wardrobes in the ice cold, brrrrrrrrr... hehehe.

                    Take care of my chickens, don't go choking them. wink

    2. Sufidreamer profile image80
      Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

      Sounds great: Where do I sign big_smile

      1. Mrvoodoo profile image56
        Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

        My system is so simple and effective that you don't even need to sign.  You simply send me all your money. big_smile

        1. Sufidreamer profile image80
          Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

          Done - One Euro and 37 cents is on its way big_smile

          We have a couple of spare chickens if you are interested in bartering smile

          1. Mrvoodoo profile image56
            Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

            hmmmmmmm, I'll have to give that some thought, it's a generous offer no doubt, but I'm not sure how that could be worded within my scammy ad campaign.  'I make several spare chickens a day online, and you could too, click here to read my secret!' 

            But I'll very much enjoy spending your Euro 37 cents, many thanks. lol

            1. Sufidreamer profile image80
              Sufidreamerposted 13 years agoin reply to this

              No problem - you deserve all that money after all of the hard work you put in.

              Maybe this is the start of a new internet marketing scheme - earn 1000 chickens with just an hour of work. In tough economic times, people are beginning to understand the value of a good layer. smile

              1. profile image0
                Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                i know how to deal with chickens, if you guys dont want them, ill take them.

              2. Mrvoodoo profile image56
                Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                A good layer is something I've always very much appreciated. smile

                But we just might be onto something here, lets give it some thought and come up with some angles.  I'm placing Justine in charge of my share of the chickens, as I'm a little squeamish around them, lol.

                1. profile image0
                  Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

                  ill take care of them, you can pay me with cd's.....

                  1. Mrvoodoo profile image56
                    Mrvoodooposted 13 years agoin reply to this

                    cds = chicken dinners? big_smile

  26. profile image0
    Audreveaposted 13 years ago

    Ryan - don't go. You've been so helpful and you've done such a great job of highlighting some of the differences between a print mindset and online.

    A lot of us are print trained - when I started journalism classes at uni they had to show me where the PC lab was and explain what a search engine does (and it really wasn't that long ago relatively speaking). You have your head around both worlds and that's a great skill.

    You said something (in the Pgrundy thread maybe?) along the lines that if you write on some obscure topic for the net and noone is searching for it / it's not sufficiently optimised - no one will find it to read it. That was an interesting way to look at it b/c it cuts through the commercial / non commercial divide and makes it about the medium - do you want to be read or do you not mind either way?

    I do have a high horse though - I don't like the stuff that's competely lacking in any writing skill and the bought / sold aspect of online writing where it is purely transactional - it bothers me.

    I watched Pamela Stephenson interviewing Billy Connolly on her Shrink Rap show (youtube) and she asked him about people being on their high horse with him and he said (paraphrase), 'oh no ... NOBODY has a higher horse than me."

    Oh how I love that.

  27. Mrvoodoo profile image56
    Mrvoodooposted 13 years ago

    Thread officially trashed.

    Merry Christmas to all you crazy hubber lunatics, take care of you and yours.

    Over and out.

    1. profile image0
      Justine76posted 13 years agoin reply to this

      not my fault, I have ADD ...

  28. profile image0
    Audreveaposted 13 years ago

    On the non commercial side - hubbers who aren't into attracting a wider readership through SEO techniques, is it mainly a social / peer review kind of thing?

    It seems to me HubPages is perfect for that - so I can definitely see that side of the argument.

  29. profile image0
    lynnechandlerposted 13 years ago

    Wow! Happy Holidays everyone!


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