the Illegal immigrant plight

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   meevamarieposted 14 years ago

   Illegal immigration
   
   Pondering the recent protests of illegal immigrants in DC
   
   I don't get this...Illegal immigrants are are demonstrating in DC, like everyone else, they want all the promises the President offered to be fulfilled NOW... I understand that part. What I don't get is that their signs say that it was their vote who helped the President win. Illegal immigrants can't vote!
   One must have a social security card, and other proof of citizenship. Even permanent residents, who have just about all of the rights a citizen has - DO NOT have the right to vote. There are rather tough rules in place.
   Why did illegal immigrants demonstrate in DC? There is safety in numbers - just imagine the INS intruding in those masses of people...it could have grown into a worldwide scandal, while "we" were trying to keep our focus on the passing of healthcare reform.
   Illegal immigration is indeed a tricky problem, and it must be solved.
   One hand we (really do) need them - they work for SO little money, live in housing which are more like rat holes than houses - we would never think of living this way. If we did not have them, real wages would have to be paid for farming, planting and other back-breaking and dangerous jobs. In the end, we would, and will - have to pay the price!
   
   I can remember a solution my home country used, which worked there, having the same need for cheap-er labor -
   They offer (ed) work visas, which were renewed annually. Their employer had to sign, that they could not find a citizen, or permanent resident to fill the position for the same pay rate. I am sure there were other details, addressing minimum pay rate etc.
   I may research and add to this article when I have updated facts.
   
   Regardless of any kind of argument - We MUST treat people, like we would like to be treated, and not how we can treat them, because they have no recourse.
   
   We as a people ought to be ashamed of this hidden type of slavery - this has to be addressed. We can't have our way - cheapest and abusive labor and no human rights - c'mon!

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      SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      ...step one is to come into the USA according to the laws, period. then we can work from there.

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         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         AMEN.

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            IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            And..., your ancestors got here how?

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               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               some were born here( I'm of Cherokee descent), some came and took over through war, by invading and conquering...
               
               So which is it for the illegals...Were they born United States Citizens or are they invading and conquering?
               
               The people living here during the european invasion didn't just let them invade, they killed as many of them as they possibly could....should we do that as well? Or just send them home?

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                  IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I differ with you on your historical accuracy.  So..., enough said. Thanks.

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                     OneMorning85posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You're one of the few making any sense here.

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               Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               This is an "odd" argument to me.  I do know that at the "great-grandparent (and in one or two cases, grandparent) level, my ancestors came here legally.  Farther back ) or father out from them, I had no clue.  I do know, though, that for generations my family has been legal citizens having their children here. 
               
               If I could be transported to generations and generations ago, and be asked if I thought anyone just muscling their way into this country was right, I would have said "no" back then, the way I say it today.    Since I can't be transported generations back, and since I'm only able to look at who I, personally, am as a legal citizen (and since I can't be responsible if, say, my grown son chose to move to another country illegally, because I'm only responsible for doing what's legal myself) - those people of many generations aren't people I'm responsible for either.
               
               Are people who may have had ancestors who kept slaves supposed to just say, "Oh, it was ok then; so it must be ok now?"  or say, "I have no right to say what some ancestors may have done was wrong, or what other people are doing now, is wrong - based on existing law and my own existing moral standards."
               
               My personal ancestors were in Europe until at least the 1700's and 1800's.  The arrived legally and their kids, grandkids, great-grandkids, etc. were all born here as citizens.  As far as I'm concerned, I have every right to think very little of anyone who, in this day age, decides to break the law and come into any country illegally.

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                  Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  I think the way I would have said this is:
                  
                  The fact that something wrong was done generations ago in the past, does not justify doing the same wrongful thing today to someone else.
                  
                  Just because someone generations ago owned slaves does not make it ok for someone else TODAY to own slaves. Slavery was wrong then and it is wrong now.
                  
                  You cannot punish the people alive today for the wrongs done generations ago, they are not the people that did the wrong, it was someone else.
                  
                  Doing a new wrong today because it was done before in the distant past, does not fix the wrong of yesterday.
                  
                  Lisa, I do agree with you.

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         TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Come legally, or expect nothing but a deportation ticket.

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      thisisoliposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Erm, if there was a mass demonstration of illegal immigrants why did they not jump on this opportunity to deport them?!
      
      Saying that though, for a country which is mean to be accepting the poor, weary, etc, it has taken me around 18 months to get in and marry my fiancée.
      
      What's even mroe annoying is that David Beckham went and got in hassle free, when his job was not EVEN on the list of subjects which you can aquire points with, and I'm pretty sure he doesn't have a university education.

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         Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         that is exactly the point.  we have a major problem with illegal immigrants and NOBODY is doing anything about it!

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         TMMasonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         There was a mass demonstration of illegals in Wa. this weekend. And they didn't round them up because it would decimate the democrat voting bloc.
         
         They estimated it at like 200,000 in attendance. I don't know if I believe that #. But?... shit happens.

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      OneMorning85posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't understand your argument. You said we need them to work for cheap. I'm assuming because we are beneath such menial jobs as cleaning and farming *sarcasm*
      
      Then you say: Regardless of any kind of argument - We MUST treat people, like we would like to be treated, and not how we can treat them, because they have no recourse.
      
      So are they your equals or not?

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         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         The Bottom line is. Criminals coming from a foreign land have no rights in some other country.
         
         They need to go home and FIX THEIR OWN COUNTRY<period>

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      Hxprofposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree that we shouldn't have 'cheap' labor-some would say that illegals are being used as slave labor, and that's true for some; many illegals don't realize that inhumane treatment is illegal here regardless of their status.
      
      The real problem is that illegals don't belong here-PERIOD.  Companies that hire illegals need to be severely penalized-they'd stop hiring them really quick.  The other part of the solution is to protect our borders and enforce our immigration laws.

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         Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         yup.  got that right.    (I agree)

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            sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            We only hire properly documented workers and we check. We also do background checks on American aplicants. Our starting wage is $9.00 an hour for a worker with no experience. We can't get Americans for that and if I didn't have to compete with companies opperating illegally I would be able to pay a wage an American would work for, maybe. Working construction in Houston is not for the faint hearted! This a tough mans work in hellish conditions and we push. I take my hat off to anyone who would do this work, legally.

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               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               sounds like your saying you hire illegals???

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                  sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  We have an employment company screen our applicants I decide if their worth keeping.

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                     Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     does that mean you do or you don't?
                     
                     can't say...   (is an admission of guilt btw)

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               livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               The way to compete with that is to offer more than the illegals can.  Offer warranty work which is something the fly by night illegals cannot offer.  LOL having an "employment company" screen your applicants keeps you from finding American's that will not work for $9.00 an hour? You're looking for people with NO Experience then try posting job notices at the local colleges or better yet, the unemployment offices.  I'll bet you get better screened Americans that WILL work for $9.00 an hour.

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      Madame Xposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      ACORN

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      BDazzlerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You've obviously never lived in Chicago. Everybody knows that corrupt officials register illegals for voting and give them various IDs.  Living in Chicago on election day is like a big joke, "Vote Early, Vote Often" that's the theme. 
      
      Guess where Obama is from?
      
      Rod Blagojevich wasn't exposed for being corrupt.  He just got too greedy.  He was holding out for more money and that made the machine mad.  He messed up the balance.

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      Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You aren't supposed to copy paste your hub into the forum. Or vice versa. If people do a google search they will be lead here instead of to your hub.

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   People need a scapegoat...this year it's illegal aliens...

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't need a scapegoat, I need a job. My problem is with a highschool diploma only, the only jobs I'm qualified for are taken by Illegals...

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         Uninvited Writerposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         And isn't it then the employer who is at fault for hiring them?

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            Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Partially yes.
            
            But if you could buy something that 'fell off a truck' for 75% off would you?
            
            How about if everyone of your competitors did, and you really needed the item?
            
            So can you really blame the employers? I blame the Government for not doing thier job. If the Illegals could not get here they could not be hired.

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            Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            they couldn't hire them if they weren't here!
            they wouldn't hire them if they knew they would lose big tax breaks or be otherwise penalized with huge fines Because they hired them.

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      Disturbiaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't see them as scapegoats.  The operative word here is ILLEGAL.  They are in this country illegally, so as far as I see it, they shouldn't have a right to anything but a oneway ticket back home to where they belong.  We don't bend over backwards for other people who break the law, we put them in jail.  How is an illegal alien any different from anybody else who breaks the law?  And for the record, I'm a first generation immigrant who came to the US legally as an infant with my mother from Hungary, so I have no issue with immigration, but I do have an issue with people who sneak into a place without permission.

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   IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years ago

   You got that right UW!
   
   I wonder, do Americans really understand what these people provide for our country?  Do they understand how much they pay in SS taxes to our country every year?  These illegals, serve a greater purpose.  They are the fruit pickers, street sweepers, construction crew, turkey factory worker; they are everything that Americans in this country, think they are too good for. The are the under priced labor here in America. 
   
   Who else is going to do the work?  Americans also want too much money, for the type of labor, that these hardworking people provide.

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      SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      ...want too much money for labor? labor should be the highest paid jobs, and because they do them for next to nothing that will never change. things are screwed up becuase no one is abiding by the laws, some of which do need to change.

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         IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         No labor shouldn't. 
         
         We cannot break our middle class farmers, who need an extra pair of hands, just because you think labor should be the highest paying job. 
         
         We cannot stop certain types of labor enforced jobs, just because it contains the word labor.  There is a lot of variables.  I would have thought, you would of thought of that first, before commenting.
         
         Interesting.

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            SparklingJewelposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            ...farmers should not be middle class either. they keep people alive...that is worth more then a dwindling middle class.
            
            who sets these monetary standards are the elites...that needs to change, there is no equality or fairness  across the systems, things are screwed up

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      Ohmaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      First who says United states citizens will not do these jobs? I have worked in a Turkey Factory, I have also cleaned hotels rooms, worked as a hazmat cleaning tech. and shoveled horse crap to feed my children. I do not understand why everyone keeps saying United States citizens will not do these things. At this stage in the game most of us would be happy to have the paycheck.

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      sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Well Americans don't typically live 20 to a house either. If you had to support a family on those wages you couldn't but, if you sent the illegals home the price for labor would rise. When it became a livable wage Americans would do the work. Then those same Americans would spend and consume here keeping the money here and then these new consumers would demand goods. This new demand for goods and services would create more and better jobs people could work and train for and they would make more money and consume more. Then there'd be more demand for goods and services and BAM! Free enterprise! Free markets! and all because we sent people home who broke our laws, yes thats right, broke our laws! Do you want to live among criminals? If they have no respect for our laws how far would they go?

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         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Very well said.

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      Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      do you honestly think wanting a living wage is asking for too much money??

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      JON EWALLposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      favicon.ico
      
      The illegals  soak up over $300 BILLION OF GOVERNMENT ENTITLEMENMTS EACH YEAR.
      
      Remember what the politicians keep saying '' we are a nation of the rule of law ''
      The government needs to practice what they preach and start enforcing our immigration laws Business and Government are assisting the illegals in breaking our laws.
      
      Cut off the free entitlements and they will leave. President Obama signing the Health Care bill will bring them on since illegals are not excluded from the bill
      
      If that makes you angry,call your public servant in congress and load off on him or her.
      
      This president and the democrat controlled congress don't seem to hear the people.

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      Ghost32posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Um, I've worked with quite a few legal immigrants--especially truck drivers--and have no bone to pick with them.  But the part about taking jobs Americans refuse to do?  I never have understood that one.
      
      My Dad and my wife both picked crops--berries, beans, hops, whatever--in their younger years.  I personally have stacked hay (both loose and bales), dug post holes, swept floors, washed dishes, counted seeds, mucked out barnyards, busted tires, pumped gas, pretty much anything and everything I could find to make a few pennies when pennies were needed. 
      
      ??????

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   IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years ago

   Alrighty then. 
   
   It is what it is.  And, my question remains open.

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   Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years ago

   How can a group of criminals demonstrate, and not be arrested and deported or jailed?
   
   What 'Rights' do criminals that break into your house have? That you fix them dinner? The right to decide what we watch on the television?
   
   Who do these Illegals think they are... citizens????
   
   
   
   It may have started out as a plight, it has turned into something else, I'm just not sure what yet.

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      cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      
      we should invite them in for tea and let them talk about their feelings
      
      i have to wonder what would happen if a bunch of Americans tried to pull that in Mexico.
      
      
      (haha keep fightin' the good fight baby

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   thisisoliposted 14 years ago

   Maybe instead of spending 18 months of going through paperwork I should have just told imigration that I wanted to attend the illegal immigrants protest.

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      lol, maybe

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   thisisoliposted 14 years ago

   There are plenty of people in my home town who complained about the Polish taking all the jobs, however when I moved back and needed work for a few months I went to the local factory, where apparently no one could get work because of all the Polish.
   
   Within three days I had a call offering me the job.
   
   So were the immigrants really taking all the jobs? or were people really just not taking the job because they saw factory work as below them?
   
   Of course England has a cushy benefits system, which will hopefully soon be changing.

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      cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      i don't think they are actually taking jobs. they do a lot of jobs Americans won't do. they are very hard-working. but i do get annoyed when a bunch of people (any people) who broke into my country assemble and complain about it, waving their country's flag to boot.

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         Ohmaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Again with Americans wont do these jobs! C'mon people there are homless americans standing on every street corner in Downtown U.S.A. carrying signs that say "Will Work For Food" I am very certain they would do any of the jobs you are talking about.

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         Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Amen (@Mexican Flag waving from Illegals complaining about their treatment and rights/or lack of, in my country)
         
         I however have worked beside them... They don't work any harder than I did, in fact not one of them kept up with me...
         
         The fact isn't that United States citizens won't take or do the jobs...it is just that the employer can pay illegals less...and that puts money in their pocket. Simple greed.
         
         The illegals can work for less because the dollar is worth many times more in Mexico, minimum wage here is like doctors pay there. Work here a few years and retire rich, that's why they come.

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            Ohmaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Exactly,

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            cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            
            
            ...which is why Americans aren't doing their jobs
            
            (i should have said "most" Americans. better?

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               Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Cosette, did you know the Equal Rights Amendment never passed? I was having a new baby the year that was the dead line. I never knew.
               
               Our rights as women were never ratified into law.  That being said, do any of our votes really count or is it all a smoke screen.

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                  cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  haha....no, our votes don't count. case in point, a few years ago we Arizonans voted for medical marijuana and it passed and then the legislature repealed it. now our votes are just to say stuff
                  
                  i'll be back. gonna go get PeiWei

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                     Faybe Bayposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     K I have school tomorrow, and I feel an ERA hub coming on, to go with Rafini's on the subject.

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               Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I think what you said and how was perfectly fine. I wasn't trying to disagree with you at all...

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   Uninvited Writerposted 14 years ago

   The way I look at it. These people are desperate and have nothing, they are willing to risk entering a country illegally. Most of them are not criminals but people who are working hard to support their families. They are told fairy stories about how life in the US is perfect and everyone gets rich. They are not as different from you as you think.

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Every one of them are criminals. <period> just because you can relate to why they broke the law does not make the law breaking not breaking the law.
      
      Don't get me wrong, it did start out as a save me I really need help situation, it no longer is...it is about If I break the law and go into the U.S. I can get rich...that is why they come now. Not for political asylum like they want us bleeding hearts to think.
      
      I'm not saying if I were them I wouldn't do pretty much the same thing....I'm just saying I'm not them, and I have to represent my side of the conflict, not theirs.
      
      IMHO...They must go and fix their own country.

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         Home Girlposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         They can't, that's the problem. They can fix their own country no more than you do fix yours.  Let's say:
         If you have a choice:
         To be hungry, to be deprived of everything, to see your children hungry and dead and go somewhere else for a chance, just A CHANCE to live a normal life for you and your children? What would you do? Do not say, you would stay in fear not to break the LAW?! F*** the LAW! You would grab you children and run ANYWHERE!  I remember times when people in my country tried to swim Baltic Sea just trying to run away from oppressed regime. Do you think at that time they were thinking anything about breaking any law?
         . They just wanted a chance, that's it. Every man has a right to have a chance. In the eyes of what law can you call them criminals?

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   Ohmaposted 14 years ago

   Accept if I were to go to another country to find work I would do it legally and that is all the difference that matters.

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      Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Deleted
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         Ohmaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Thank-you I do have some trouble with those.

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            Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

              just wanted to make sure I understood.

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    sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

    Illegal means someone has broken a law. It doesn't mean someone has broken a law but.

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    Lily Roseposted 14 years ago

    Did you know that the Border Patrol are not allowed to enter onto certain farmlands near the border to either chase illegals or arrest suspected illegals because of the fact that the farmers need them for cheap labor that they would not otherwise be able to get any American to do?  In essence, our government is perpetuating the greed...

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       Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree, and I completely blame the Government for the problem. Had the Government simply done its job from the begining we would not have the problem.
       
       BAD Government...Bad Bad Bad...shame on you!

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          Lily Roseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Hey!  We agree on something, Mikel!

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             Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             I think we agree on lots of stuff...like you being a cutie...

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                Lily Roseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Awwww, you're sweet!  Oh, and you're not so bad yourself, either ... okay, now back on topic!

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                   Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   

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    IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years ago

    I think the fact that illegals, pay something like $400,000,000,000.00 plus in unclassified Social Security taxes, has a lot to do with their decision.

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       LegendaryHeroposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       So you're telling me that each of the 12 million illegal immigrants pay about $33,000 a year? How do they pull that off with below minimum wage pay?

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          Ohmaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Good Question!

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          IntimatEvolutionposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yeah, yeah, yeah.  You are right, my bad.  I was thinking total of Social Security.  However, in 2005 they paid an extra 9 billion dollars into our melting pot.
          
          I guess that is chump change around here.

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    RKHenryposted 14 years ago

    Chump change for the Isolationists in the forum it appears.

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    Lily Roseposted 14 years ago

    ...or get to this country the legal way!

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    Poppa Bluesposted 14 years ago

    Imagine if we tried to do this today!
    
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wetback

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    What the original poster of this threat puts forward is not absolute..... How many of those "illegal immigrant" demonstrators were American citizens..students, labor activists, immigration activists?
    
    Was there a poll taken to figure out how many in the crowd were actually undocumented?
    
    With this said, Barack Obama called for immigration reform....and he spoke towards all residents of the United States....legal and other....
    
    It makes perfect sense that there would be demonstrations....

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       cosetteposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       
       
       Obama promised demonstrators this week that he would help them. hmm i wonder what that means? demonstrators were lamenting the fact that their families were broken up because they entered this country illigally and not all of them are here...some of their relatives are still in Mexico.
       
       so, let's see, these people willingly exit their own country, leaving their family behind, have babies who are US ciitizens because they are born here, yet mom gets deported and the children are left behind with relatives and we have to fix the problems they brought upon themselves?

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          Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Yes and if you don't, you are a terrible person because you think you're better than them just because you were born a U.S. Citizen. As if that gives you rights that it doesn't give to them...  (What they are thinking is Human Rights are the same thing as Citizenship Rights...and obviously they aren't)

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    Ohmaposted 14 years ago

    Nicely put Lisa HW

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    Lily Roseposted 14 years ago

    You could not have said that better, Mikel - you're right, illegals do confuse human rights with citizenship rights!
    
    By the way, how do you italicize in a forum post??

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       Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       [ i ] text [ / i ] (minus the spaces b for bold)

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    Ohmaposted 14 years ago

    Hmmm sorry Sneako that still does not answer the question and honestly I am surprised as I thought you had some very strong opinions about the presence of illegals in the U.S.

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    Rafiniposted 14 years ago

    Okay, so, I had a job, ooohhh, about 10 years ago now, where I was the ONLY American Citizen who was not in management.  Guess what I saw & learned?
    
    These illegal immigrants CHOSE to work without taking a lunch break!  Does that make them better workers?  NO!  That makes them greedy.  Most of these illegal immigrants had more than one job.  Does that make them better workers?  NO!  That makes them greedy.  How many of these illegal immigrants had a drivers license?  How did they get their drivers license when they weren't American Citizens?  How many of these illegal immigrants had fake documentation to get the jobs?  A drivers license?  ALL OF THEM!!
    
    Do you know how many illegal immigrants children are overburdening our public school systems?  Did you realize illegal immigrants are demanding their children be taught in their native tongue?  Do you realize how much money illegal immigrants cost our country? 
    
    Lost jobs, lost wages, substandard housing still exists, poverty level minimum wage, tax dollars to pay the teachers to teach OUR children THEIR language.  It needs to STOP.
    
    Breaking and entering into American Society is a CRIME no matter which way you look at it & perpetuates more crimes!!  Lock our borders like we lock our doors at night.  Send them home immediately rather than steal our children's futures!

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    GoGrannyposted 14 years ago

    Oh my! I appreciate this forum! I must say that the illegal immigrant protesters have a lot of nerve. I live in Southeast Pa where the Hispanic growth here was reported as 800% over the past 10 years or so! So I am relieved to read that not everyone is OK with this influx. I am not prejudice, and don't want to say anything that make me appear so. But it is amazing how much this area has changed!! With some native citizens able to afford to move out into the new construction homes in the country, and those with less means moving to cheaper towns...the Hispanics have taken over my small town! I can only assume that the local governments are encouraging and assisting them with housing and jobs. And they will work! They will do anything even if it is minimum wage. And they spend money! The businesses here are doing very well because of these people...even the local Chinese restaurant is loaded with them everyday!

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       Mikel G Robertsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yea... It must be nice to be able to not pay Social Security withholding, Welfare support, Medicare...Income Tax...
       
       Hell, If I had a JOB and didn't have to pay to support the United States I'd bring home about twice as much, I could probably go out to eat at a chinese restaurant too. Or own a house, or a car...
       
       I'm Glad the System of the United States is working out for someone<oozing Sarcasm>...even if they are criminals and the reason I don't have and can't find a job.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Wow Rafini....I haven't heard such tripe in a long time... The ignorant world of "always" and "only"...and they are the "greedy" ones...
    
    Ridiculous....
    
    Just like the argument that "illegals don't pay taxes"....
    
    Along with the fallacy that undocumented persons make up a sizeable prison/jail percentage...and a lot of the Lou Dobbs et al nonsense that is running rampant....
    
    While the perception is that undocumented are uneducated and unskilled, a great percentage are the opposite...and a great many are men and women who, as opposed to coming over the border, have overstayed their visas.... 
    
    With this said, Sneak, are you putting legal and political pressure on those companies that are causing you to diminish the wages you pay to your employees? I have yet to read any such viewpoing from anything you've composed here on hubpages...

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       Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       HA!  Illegal immigrants don't pay taxes.  They claim to have 10 children as soon as they get their first paycheck and then reduce their withholdings. 
       
       BTW - Did you know these illegal immigrants have at least 3 fake id's?  One for both full time jobs (so they pay less taxes) AND one so they can get food stamps, medical assistance,and a monthly check!  And if/when they are arrested the get new fake documentation so they can still steal American Jobs.  Did you know these illegal immigrants live with up to 3 families in a small 2 bedroom apartment?  It is FACT - so they have more money to send back home! 
       
       These illegal immigrants I am talking about DO file taxes and get thousands back!  Just like any other legal US Citizen who earns less than $50,000 per year.
       
       Anyone who chooses to ignore this truth is giving these illegal immigrants exactly what they want.  Our country.  Did you know these illegal immigrants are in their homes laughing at our stupidity?  I have seen it.
       
       
       Under these circumstances, I would be able to afford to live well in American too.  Rather than fighting to keep two steps behind inflation.

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    logic,commonsenseposted 14 years ago

    Let's see, if I do something illegal, I get arrested and lose some of my rights.  If ILLEGAL immigrants come here illegally, they get my tax dollars.
    Has anyone googled Congress and the current administration to see how many of them employed illegal immigrants because they were to damn cheap to hire citizens?   One might be suprised.

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       Ralph Deedsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Most of them are paying U.S. taxes just like everyone else.

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          Rafiniposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          they get REFUNDS!  if they file, which many of them do.  They also get food stamps, medical assistance, and a monthly check.  NOT like everyone else.

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          logic,commonsenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          What part of illegal don't you understand?
          Regardless of whether it is immigration or anything else, if you break the law there are supposed to be consequences.  I am a citizen and I pay lots of taxes and that does not exempt me from punishment when I break the law!

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    That 300 billion dollar number is a lie....factcheck.org debunked that..
    
    Thanks for showing that you either don't know what you're talking about, or that you rather enjoy misinforming people...
    
    Rule of law?  It is hard to build and enforce laws when we live in a society of political liars and charlatans...there should be more laws against them..
    
    
    "Cost of Illegal Immigrants
    April 6, 2009
    Q: Do illegal immigrants cost $338.3 billion dollars a year? More than the Iraq war?
    
    A: A chain e-mail that makes this claim is loaded with errors and misleading assertions. Published studies vary widely but put the cost to government at a small fraction of that total."
    
    Read it for yourselves...
    
    
    http://www.factcheck.org/2009/04/cost-o … mmigrants/

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    So, in other words Rafini...you have no idea what you are talking about....
    
    Your words border, if not cross racism....
    
    "Illegals come here and have 10 kids"....really?  Can you cite your sources please?
    
    You have "seen" it?  I have too....and I haven't seen the "laughing at Americans" undocumented.....I have, instead, seen fear...
    
    
    As for taxation.....here are some sources that I have already placed in another ridiculous forum thread pertaining to undocumented..
    
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18077009/
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24054024/
    http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/busin … .html?_r=1
    
    "In the fine print of the 2008 annual report on Social Security, released last week, the program’s trustees noted that growing numbers of “other than legal” workers are expected to bolster the program over the coming decades.
    
    We’re not talking chump change. According to the report, the taxes paid by other-than-legal immigrants will close 15 percent of the system’s projected long-term deficit. That’s equivalent to raising the payroll tax by 0.3 percentage points, starting today."
    
    This is from: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/02/opini … ef=opinion

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       livewithrichardposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Im pretty sure she meant that when the illegals fill out their illegal w-4 they claim 10 or more which significantly reduces the federal taxes withheld from payroll.
       
       I'll agree that there are a significant amount of illegals that will not claim or receive SS. However, there are probably just as many that will. 
       
       Do you know where they get the bulk of their fake ids that give them access to the services normally reserved for legal citizens?  Would you be surprised to learn that a good number of them come from prisoners who no longer have a need for their SSN's or that the bulk of fake ids and SSN's are stolen from American children who will never learn of their stolen identity until they come of age to file their own taxes or request credit.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Hey Logic....."illegal" is the people who spur migration northward.. 
    
    Aside from employers who love to hire undocumented...who base their profit models of their presence and need....
    
    Laws like NAFTA, and the selective implementation of it, enable American business to undermine the Mexican economy....which is criminal..though there is no law against it....
    
    There used to be laws saying that blacks and whites couldn't marry......it shows you that laws can be made to perpetuate inequality and abuse...as opposed to alleviating such problems....
    
    In my view, the lack of immigration reform is just such an issue...

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       logic,commonsenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Not saying the laws are right or just.  Just saying that they are the law and until they get changed, we live by them and if we break them we face the outlined consquences.  Otherwise we face anarchy and lawlessness.
       If the majority wants to change NAFTA or whatever, do it.  We just can't have selective enforcement or obeyance.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    So....if you were black, and the law said to not ba around whites, would you obey it?  Is this just law?
    
    Or is it an illegal order?
    
    
    We don't face anarchy and lawlessness overall....the Civil Rights Movement alone showed that laws, when broken, can be shaped and changed for the better..... 
    
    NAFTA is not a democratic choice....we didn't vote on it here, just like the Mexican people did not vote on it...
    
    Business interests use the goverment to shape their interests...putting the screws on undocumented immigrants will not stop undocumented immigration, rather, it ensures that employers who use them have even greater control over this workforce.....more abuse will go on, and less people will come forward to report it for fear of arrest, deportation, and of what will become of friends/family left behind in the U.S....
    
    I say, once again, that undocumented living here who don't want to become citizens should be granted a resident status, or at least given permission to work...and force businesses to start paying better, and living up to the laws that they are breaking...
    
    Selective enforcement or obeyance has as much to do with the prosecution of employers and enablers as it does with the individual immigrants themselves.....and, I would think, that since the employers are doing the most harm...should they not be punished the most severely? 
    
    I think so......

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       logic,commonsenseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Could argue points til the cows come home.  Not going to do it.
       Just curious though.  Its okay to punish employers for breaking the law but not the people who broke the law when they came here illegally.  Not very logical to me.
       If I were black, orange, or purple, I would expect if I broke the law, I would face the consequences.  Otherwise, why have laws?  If each person can interpret the meaning, it has no meaning and therefore no enforcement.

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    Most of the illegals I know personally do not pay income tax. They're paid in cash by farmers to harvest crops on local farms. And many do work that Americans will not do! When I was married to a big farmer, we couldn't find American workers to pick peas, beans, and other produce in the sauna-like South GA summers. It also got to the point where we couldn't find enough American workers to harvest tobacco, either.
    
    We treated our migrant workers well, but MANY employers don't. They use the threat of deportation and jail to intimidate and control illegals.
    
    Were our workers illegal? I honestly have no idea. I had nothing to do with that part of the operation. I suspect, however, that many were.
    
    These uneducated workers aren't treated much better intheir own country, either. When American companies run factories in Mexico, the workers and the land are often raped. I had a friend who did a lot of work south of the border, and he's told me some horror stories.
    
    As you've probably surmised, I have mixed feelings about illegals. I rarely see things as black and white.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    I realize that the demand for illegal labor drives other criminal activities...yes..
    
    I like to see the root of the problem tackled, however, and not just the visible weeds that crop over the surface...
    
    Immigration for business' interests as opposed to the Statue of Liberty motiff has a long, storied history...  This legacy of trying to undermine American native labor through the importation of legal and illegal others is just now manifest through the imagery that this thread speaks to....
    
    Unless the root is taken care of, the problems themselves will persist, and our society will continue to create a criminal class at the bottom that suffers....while criminals at the top..arguably the worse of all...escape..and even masquerade as something else...
    
    I compare this to my old friend who railed against illegal immigrants while having one such person working in his home, cooking and cleaning for him...
    
    The real criminal in this case is the American citizen...

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "The real criminal in this case is the American citizen..."
       
       Nope. It's both of them.
       
       
       And of course this is all related to unions, the Mexican-American War, the school of the americas, Dr. Evil's NAFTA organization, your Armenian ancestors, and downtrodden indigenous peoples enslaved at Malmart. 
       
       Did I miss any of the handful of topics everything in the freakin' universe is based on because you read a few books in college?
       
       Workers of the world, unite baby! Yeah!

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    livewithrichardposted 14 years ago

    So you envision a classless, border-less, Star Trek-esque world where everyone gets along? Who rules this Utopian world or is it leaderless? Sorry Mike, I just don't see that world other than in movies. I see a world (a universe) that has balance.  A good and an evil, a right and wrong, a strong and a weak. I see a world of people striving to reach that middle ground which stabilizes the poles. I think I'm in that middle ground with other Americans that want to see our country doing what is right for Americans first and then what is right for those on the "other side of the fence" second.
    
    Nobody wants to see families go hungry or homeless regardless of where they live but can't you see how outrageous it is to witness your children's friends receive, if they're lucky, one meal a day because their mom or dad has been unemployed for 5 months or longer with 10 - 18% of the rest of the country. Where do these hungry hopeless people direct their resentment? The Feds who should have been working effortlessly on job creation bills instead of health care reform for the past year+? Or, towards an illegal population who they perceive as have taken jobs from legal citizens, whether its true or not? Or both?

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Don't put words in my mouth Richard....I'll let you spend the time watching Star Trek...
    
    My world is not based in some fantasyland.....  We need real leaders to enable policy change..
    
    Again, enabling legal working status/residency for people working within the United States is something that has been done in the past, and only serves our mutual interests...
    
    Calling on American citizens and businesses to live up to their own rhetoric...like my aforementioned friend..(who's name is also Richard...coincidentally)  People with money..Americans with money, are the ones who can hire illegal housekeepers.... 
    
    I can't, that's for sure....
    
    Does the Hilton family use illegal labor?  Yes...  But why is Paris a celebrity, and her family of high status...and not in prison?
    
    It is interesting how people from the East San Fernando Valley....trek across to the much whiter and wealthier West side of the Valley in order to clean homes......like from East Los Angeles into West Los Angeles...promoting hostility towards the undocumented ensures that their homes will continue to be cleaned by undocumented women...and their daughters....
    
    Calling for the creation and enforcement of laws that tackle the real issues is not "fantasy"....
    
    Here's a brain scratcher....of Mexican undocumented over the past 20 years....where are they coming from???
    
    Is it from all over Mexico...or from rather specific regions?
    
    Why?

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "Here's a brain scratcher....of Mexican undocumented over the past 20 years....where are they coming from???
       
       Is it from all over Mexico...or from rather specific regions?
       
       Why?"
       
       .....
       
       
       I can't wait until you take out a new book from the library. This one is really getting old.
       
       
       
       You must piling up the late fees...

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       Sab Ohposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       " We need real leaders to enable policy change.."
       
       
       "Real" leaders would be the ones you happen to agree with, right?
       
       
       Do you have Sean Penn on speed dial?

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    livewithrichardposted 14 years ago

    I'm not putting words into your mouth these are your words from your profile:
    
    "My passions are for civil rights and social justice. I have done my best to try to understand as much as I can about the peoples who populate this globe, understanding where we all come from, how we have come to be in the places we live, and am seeking to find a deeper connection between ourselves individually and collectively as well as with the larger universe that surrounds us.
    
    I believe that many of the socialized, classically conditioned stigmas that keep people divided, whether religion, race, or another separating line, can be transcended and do my best to confront these obstacles wherever they rear their ugly little heads."
    
    If I misinterpreted your goal to teach all of us classically conditioned and stigmatized people that your way is better then I'm sorry.
    
    Frankly, I don't care where the illegals come from. I care about my neighbor Tom that lost 80% of his drywall business to illegals.  I care about my cousin Jennifer that lost her car and almost her job because an uninsured unlicensed drunk illegal rammed her from behind at a red light.  I care about my step-son that can't even mow the neighborhood yards because a group of 10 illegals can do it faster and for half of what he should be able to charge. I can go on and on about what I do care about but I'll stop, it's falling on deaf ears or blind eyes.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    Then you should be lining up to pillory the Hiltons then...right?
    
    Ready to set an example?
    
    How many of these lawn mowers were illegal?  How did you know?  Did they cross the border with their equipment and money...and connections to get hired?
    
    You should hate your neighbors for hiring them.....
    
    You must really stand against your neighbors who purchased the services of illegals doing drywall.....were they hired by Americans?  Did you go after these companies? Did you get the law involved....
    
    You should care where they are coming from... because then you can figure out how to address this situation at its source....laws here don't deter the forces that drive northern immigration from there.....
    
    Unwilling to learn about what is going on beyond your small corner of the world?
    
    Or are you here on hubpages.....standing idly by...
    
    I don't know...
    
    But I do know the families of the housecleaners....and of the temp workers and drayage drivers who companies like Maersk enable to exist...and they are cognizant of what they are doing...

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    livewithrichardposted 14 years ago

    Hate's a pretty strong word Mike. I don't hate anyone. It's more of a resentment and yes I have confronted some of these neighbors as others have too though we still have a few uppity standouts.
    
    I know they're illegal because their foreman, an American, is a braggart and yes we did call the police but law enforcement has their hands tied and there is nothing city police can do about illegals.
    
    "You must really stand against your neighbors who purchased the services of illegals doing drywall.....were they hired by Americans?  Did you go after these companies? Did you get the law involved..."
    
    I work out of City Hall in Chicago and have many permit inspector friends. When I see or am informed about illegals working a construction job in Chicago, I inform the inspectors and they are more than happy to rescind a permit. Could do worse, I could inform the union shops.
    
    So no, I don't "stand idly by" here on Hubpages.
    
      "But I do know the families of the housecleaners....and of the temp workers and drayage drivers who companies like Maersk enable to exist...and they are cognizant of what they are doing."
    
    Of course you know them and you'll do nothing about it accept point out hypocrisy to whomever will listen because you're an enabler who sees the problem, is cognizant of the problem but classifies it as class warfare with your righteous indignation of us lowly immoral American citizens.

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    Touche, Richard.

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    "I work out of City Hall in Chicago and have many permit inspector friends. When I see or am informed about illegals working a construction job in Chicago, I inform the inspectors and they are more than happy to rescind a permit. Could do worse, I could inform the union shops."
    
    Perhaps you should.  Let me make this clear...my issue with the ongoing immigration debate is that I see ineffective policy being used...administration after administration... Building a wall is not a policy....stiffening prison sentences, or giving someone a criminal record for immigrating illegally is not a policy...
    
    Understanding objectively why specific migrations are occurring, and then looking to what one can do, or what one can foster another or joint venture to do, is vitally important...
    
    My issue is that there is too much money being made on the trafficking of people...and kicking people over the border or building fences does not slow this profit flow...not one bit.
    
    Where are they coming from, and why......
    
    Hate is a strong word Richard...and based on what you expressed through the words in your post earlier....strong emotions if not hate for these people who drove your friends and community youth out of work can seem to come quite close to that line..  I have family who have the same view...and they openly express hate... 
    
    "Of course you know them and you'll do nothing about it accept point out hypocrisy to whomever will listen because you're an enabler who sees the problem, is cognizant of the problem but classifies it as class warfare with your righteous indignation of us lowly immoral American citizens."
    
    I am doing something about it....as you say you are doing... I am tutoring their youth... I am supporting a realistic strategy of recongizing people already here....and for not scapegoating and labeling as threats....for they are not in any way threatening...
    
    You may not be doing as such....but you would probably support the writings of Samuel Huntington...and that is exactly what he does....twisting truth into his own creation..
    
    In your city there is nothing that can be done in your city about an American contractor who openly hires illegal workers?
    
    The police are not the only source of law enforcement...why not call ICE?
    
    You could form a neighborhood coalition to expose this man in the media for what he is doing, and even put public pressure on those who use his services.....there is a lot to be done....
    
    And that is the kind of pressure that is needed.... The American enablers..the people in Northridge and my Rush Limbaugh loving friend who hires undocumented....they need to be punished...
    
    For the immigrants/residents themselves who are undocumented, if they have family here, and if they have a support system, then opportunity to either gain working authorization or another status (or even the option to return home) should be applied....that is my viewpoint.
    
    On top of this, I also take into account why the migrants have come, based on where it is......and for the states of Oaxaca...and Chiapas pressures have been placed on the local populations...the indigenous and Mestizo populations...that aren't being felt elsewhere....  There are powers struggling within Mexico...and the United States is deeply involved..
    
    Mexico exerts no such pressue on the United States....

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    mikelongposted 14 years ago

    I want to even go further....
    
    The FIOB..Oaxacalifornia and other transnational organizations, through the work of their membership...legal and not, are doing the grassroots work to build both a stronger Mexico and United States outside of the corrupted government structures...much in the way Americans love to look at society with limited government...they are doing this type of building now.
    
    Through their efforts, womens rights, environmental, gender, labor and other serious struggles that transcend nationality are being shaped...and should continue to be...
    
    We can disagree...but I am glad that you point to your personal experiences Richard...as I do with my own... I will take things that you have said and learn more, and I hope that you can look into some of what I raise here....what can we both learn?
    
    Thanks for not being a Sab Oh...

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    sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

    Somebody left the door open hes back, damn.

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