What's wrong with these poems?

1. 61

   Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years ago

   Hey anybody,
   
   I feel like these particular verses have been received poorly. I'm trying to describe the validity of imagination. I'm trying to say that, even if it's in our heads, it still exists in our heads. And what's in our heads is our heads. Our mind, our soul, goes to a subjective after-life, I believe.
   
   I'm trying to blur the lines between scientific evidence of virtual particles and spirituality. The quantum world screams spooky.
   
   Anyway, enough of my preamble. Tell me what you think, and what ought to be changed:
   
   http://hubpages.com/hub/When-Lies-Become-Truth
   
   Thanks,
   
   Dan

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   1. 87

      Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Could you explain what you mean by "received poorly"?
      
      If you mean HubScore - the Hub is very short, which means its HubScore will always be low because part of the HubScore is related to length. 
      
      If you mean traffic - because its HubScore is low and it's not on a popular topic, it's not going to pop up on HP's front page so most Hubbers won't see it. 
      
      As for external traffic, people don't just stumble over things on the internet - they search for them.  If you write about something that no one is searching for, you'll get no visitors.
      
      Unfortunately poetry never does well on the internet for that reason - few people are actively looking for it.
      
      Your best hope of getting traffic is to actively network with other creative writers on HubPages and elsewhere and appreciate each other's work.

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      1. 61

         Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Marisa,
         
         Those are some aweseome suggestions! I'll keep that in mind.
         
         I just felt like they were recieved poorly. I don't really know one way or the other
         
         Thanks,
         
         Dan

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         1. 87

            Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Daniel, one thing you can do with poetry Hubs is make them longer by adding a "blurb" about the inspiration for the poem, or an explanation of what you were trying to say, etc.  Photos and illustrations count, too.

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            1. 61

               Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Marisa,
               
               I hadn't thought of that. I figured some people will click off if my poems are too long, but - then again - I can't stop them from doing that for my longer hubs. So, I’ll have to start doing that.
               
               I always put photos up—and captions too. I think they, plus the title, are like these poem's "cover."
               
               Thanks,
               
               Dan

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               1. 87

                  rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  poems are harder to publish here because if you're like me, they are much more personal than writing a hub article. but having views requires the same principles as writing an article. you have to give the readers a reason to want to read your poems.
                  
                  . get their attention from the very start. the title.
                  
                  . is it readable?  does it provoke thought or emotion?
                  
                  . will it leave them with a reason to revisit your poetry?
                  
                  I think I would eliminate the hyperlinks in your poems unless they go to one of your own poems. I don't think I have links in my poems, it's distracting to the reader. reading a poem needs to flow.
                  
                  I have a few of my poems here, I included some background with text to give the reader a view into my mind while reading. but not everyone here does that, it's your preference.
                  
                  actually there are thousands of active monthly global searches for poems.
                  
                  love poems- 2,740,000
                  
                  friendship poems- 450,000
                  
                  birthday poems- 555,000
                  
                  sad poems- 201,00
                  
                  also lots of competition in these categories, but if you can snag a portion of those views, it's nice exposure.

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         2. 64

            Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Daniel, I don't think it's your poetry at all.   I think it's what Marisa said.  I don't know how effective this would be, because it isn't something I've ever done (but I've seen some Hubbers do this type of thing):
            
            What about posting one Hub with a few poems about a similar thing, call it something like, "Poems about imagination" or "Poems about disappointment",  and maybe add some things like ads for books for poets, videos (with music) that may relate to the subject,  links to other sources of "poems about imagination" - that kind of thing.  As Marisa suggested, you could add something about your own inspiration or the process of writing the poetry.  In other words, build a Hub around your poem(s), rather than just leaving one, individual poem to fend for itself on the Internet.
            
            OR, do something like write Hubs that are about writing poetry or breaking into getting it published, or else places people publish poetry on the Internet (research and maybe some learning for you, as a poet); and then put your poetry Hubs amidst "poetry/writing-related" Hubs.  If people are searching for articles on creative writing/poetry, maybe they'd be more likely to go and read your poems, too.  (In other words, create a niche for yourself and make your poetry a part of it.)
            
            People can do things like sign up for a site where you can list poetry as your interest, and then you may be able to link to your Hubs.  If others are interested in poetry too they're more likely to click on other people's poetry.  Or, you could aim to build up an "online identity" by using things like your own website, print-on-demand books of your poetry, some poetry sites, HubPages, etc. etc. 
            
            I don't know how effective any of this would be, but you may want try a few of these kinds of things to give your work a little boost. 
            
            Follow (on here or on other sites) some other people who write poetry and see how they do things.   
            
            This is going to sound awful, and it may not be how you'd prefer to showcase  your poetry; but you could try doing something like having a Hub about, say, imagination; posting your poem, and the adding ads to products like movies about imagination, books about it, songs about it, links to references/articles about how people develop imagination, etc. That way, if someone searches "imagination" they get a bunch of information and capsules, with your poem "to boot".  There's the chance you'll get your poem a little more exposure.  Some people may read it and like it (or not), but in the meantime you may increase your chances your Hub will get more traffic, get a higher score, and get your poem yet a little more exposure.
            
            OR, just write your other, non-poetry, Hubs; post your poems,  and be OK with the fact that poems aren't as likely to do as well.   Again, I don't know if this would work or would be at all of any interest to you; but it's just some thoughts.

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   2. 76

      schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Daniel,
      to me, this poem was very good. I couldn't write it, I think I'm more of a simple poet.
      I think it was good (as I say.)
      
      I just learned though not to use pics until at least 2 text capsules (to allow google ads to be seen)
      also, turn your ad activity (settings I think) to high to get the most ads......

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2. 73

   SteveoMcposted 14 years ago

   Personally, I don't like poetry.  Never could relate to it.  Obviously I could not tell you anyway to improve it.   
   
   But I will tell you this much, it takes something special to get me to appreciate it.
   
   This, I did not appreciate at all.   
   
   Keeping in mind what sort of audience I am, it probably does not mean a thing.

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   1. 61

      Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      SteveoMc,
      
      I thank you for your time.
      
      Let me try differently. Think of a pitch dark room. There's no light at all. Are you scared of the dark? Why would you be? Because you don't know what's in the dark room. You can't see the contents. Your imagination fills in the holes.
      
      Think of how many images an artist can paint on a blank canvas. Consider that space constantly creates virtual particles with mass and anti-mass that annihilate in the vacuum.
      
      I guess it just sounds stupid. I really wish I could relate this idea better.
      
      -Dan

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      1. 73

         SteveoMcposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I don't mind the esoteric discussion.  I just don't like poetry. So it proves that the secrets of poetry are lost on me. When it works for me, it astonishes me as well, as I have read many poems and didn't like most of them from the masters to the most worthless Haiku.   I even learned to hate the most loved 19th century poets.   This took several months, but I will not go back. I don't like em.
         
         As I said before, I am no judge.   I am like a stone when it comes to poetry.  It does not move me.
         
         Virtual particles I assume are pretend particles like virtual friends or virtual money.  Annihilation of virtual particles does not concern me at all.  I guess I just don't get it.

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         1. 61

            Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            SteveoMc,
            
            Well, I still appreciate your reaction.
            
            I hope you give some of my other writing a chance some time. I'd suggest Libracracy, Expletus, or Nuclear Terrorists.
            
            Thanks,
            
            Dan

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         2. 76

            schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I have to admit I had a very hard time understanding poems in high school. I only write from a natural desire....ability.  Poems that is.

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3. 68

   2uesdayposted 14 years ago

   and each person would imagine something different? Based on their preconceived fears and experiences?

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   1. 61

      Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      2uesday,
      
      That's right. I think God is the truest democracy there is. He takes all these subjective ideas and turns into objective.
      
      Thank you,
      
      Dan

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4. 71

   Cagsilposted 14 years ago

   I read your poem, not poems as your title indicates.
   
   However, I found it an interesting play on words and filled with feelings tied to your emotional state of being.
   
   I do disagree with it's overall message, as you claim in your OP and there is one line that I found very deceptive.
   
   The line where you claim that people interpret truth. People do not interpret truth, they recognize/discern truth.
   
   Truth is not subjective to interpretation. Then again, you'll most likely only see my words as a opinion and not truth, so this post you will likely dismiss. Either way, have a great day.

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   1. 61

      Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Cagsil,
      
      I respect your line of thinking. Many people share the idea of absolutism that we can merely recognize or dismiss. It could be so.
      
      I think poetry—and my writing in general—really are meant to begin discussion. I don't believe I'm always right (and I don't think you were implying that, either). I trust that when I make mistakes, that I, along with others, may learn from them.
      
      You may very well be right about truth. I may be confusing it with meaning.
      
      Thank you for your thoughts,
      
      Dan

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      1. 76

         schoolgirlforrealposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Daniel,
         I don't know if your age is the same as your photo.
         But reading yours and Cagsil's conversation.....I was getting lost
         It was so complex.
         Sometimes I think I'm just a beginner writer , probably, but I still feel I have a lot to offer based on my (hubscore) but my ability to put my thoughts down so quickly and share personal triumphs with others that I hope are inspirational and educational.
         
         What do you think, daniel, of my hubs?

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5. 69

   mqueeposted 14 years ago

   Hi Daniel, although I m not a poet I do enjoy reading it. For me subject matter and the length mean quite a bit. I do prefer long poems that tell a story. Bear in mind that I am not a poet, so I don't know what my opinion is worth.

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6. 68

   alternate poetposted 14 years ago

   If you read any of my poems on here you will see that I am quite literal and like a poem to hang together.  I also like 'expressive' poetry like Ralwus that explores emotion usually.
   
   To write any kind of free verse about philophical subjects requires a high level of skill and even when successful it is normally boring, obtuse or the message just plain wrong for many people.  For me what you are 'saying' is incorrect, for me there is no god or objective, it will be different for others.
   
   I think the bottom line is that what you are trying to write requires more poetry skill than you have, this is not such a huge criticism FROM ME as I would not attempt it, mine comes out flat and boring also.

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   1. 61

      Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Alternate Poet,
      
      They do look like free verse, but in reality they are 5 haiku with 2 bookended tanka poems. They are stand-alone poems, but I give them a common title (either 5 or 7 syllables) because they share a theme.
      
      I have to disagree with you about skill. I'm the coolest thing since ice-cubes. Haha. j/k. But, really, I don't think poetry requires any kind of "skill" other than literacy. Anybody can write poetry. Some people appeal to a smaller audience than others, I suppose, but we're all entitled to our opinions. And, in a real way, that's the whole point. We all got ideas, but none of them are ours.
      
      I didn't intend "When lies become truth" to state a case for the existence of God. I thought it could be interpreted either way. But, again, you're meeting me halfway when you read my work. You’re making sense of these haikus and tankas, and I appreciate the time you put into it.
      
      Thanks,
      
      Dan

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      1. 68

         alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I don't think you are joking when you say you think you are cool, that comes between the lines.  Nothing wrong with believing you are the best, just remember that almost everyone else thinks the same, and yes they all think that everyone else just thinks they are
         
         Poetry does require skill beyond literacy, I taught poetry at University level and have been published etc - but I still do not reckon that I am good enough yet to get cocky about it.  If we have a small audience it is because we are not doing it right

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         1. 61

            Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Well, alternate poet, we'll have to agree to disagree.
            
            I'm glad you've made income off of teaching poetry. I wish I could.
            
            I'm still looking for a job. :'( Thanks for reminding me! ;-)
            
            I do believe I've got a talent. I think you do too. Basically, everyone, in my limited understanding, has an equal, divine purpose.
            
            And I'm not saying you need to believe in God to get that. I guess I'm trying to point out that there's a difference between confidence and arrogance. You're going to have to read more of my work to make an accurate judgment. Wink-wink. Nudge-nudge.
            
            Thanks,
            
            Dan

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            1. 68

               alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               I don't agree that you have talent and I make no claim for myself.  When I was very much younger I started to write - but soon realised that I did not have enough experience to really say anything except what has been said many times before to the point of boredom. Most things, especially ideas, seem fresh and amazing when we are young, especially our own; they soon get followed by their counter ideas and if we don't get disillusioned we sometimes can get up a level of thinking. I liken it to a chess game, we get s**t-hot in our backyard and trash all the kids on the block, then we meet someone who can play at the next level and we realise we know very little - in reality.  And that never stops, there are levels after levels.
               
               You should differentiate between the forums and hubs, disagreeing here is relatively private internet chat, putting comments on hubs goes with the hub and is 'public' - and so requires a response.  You put your stuff in the forums for comment, I responded - it is 'bad manners' to respond to criticism that you invite by attempting to criticise my hubs - and you are not competent to offer criticism beyond discussion in these forums.

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               1. 67

                  Joy56posted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  hey do you think i have any talent, alternate poet, say now, then i can give up if i am wasting my time.......

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                  1. 68

                     alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Hi Joy56 - I don't think I am qualified to enough to say, It is my opinion that :-  do I enjoy your poems - yes.  Are they poetry - yes.  Do they convey a message and or feeling - yes. Could they be improved in the sense of the 'way' they are expressed in terms of their poetic form - yes, but then that applies to 99% of poetry.
                     
                     There are 'rules', or more properly 'conventions', to poetry and using some of them can really raise the level of a poem.  I would compare good poetry without the rules to meadows of wild flowers, beautiful in places and overall pleasing, with the rules is like an ornamental garden where the creator has placed everything to get special and amazing effects, little paths that wander off out of sight to tempt us in etc etc.
                     
                     You are not wasting your time.

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               2. 61

                  Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Alternate Poet,
                  
                  I don't want to sound cocky, but you are on hubpages.com... and you do have the choice of disapproving my comments if you don't like them.
                  
                  You don't like me very much; do you?
                  
                  Well, that's okay. I'll stop reading your poetry.
                  
                  Thanks,
                  
                  Dan
                  
                  P.S.
                  
                  
                  Daniel J. Neumann 10 hours ago
                  
                  Alternate Poet,
                  
                  
                  
                  “In love and war it is the same
                  
                  
                  It’s you or me to win the game
                  
                  
                  Starting with a threat to you or me"
                  
                  
                  I've always found it interesting to compare emotionally-charged relationships to a game. War is about murdering for the state. Love is about caring for someone else.
                  
                  
                  By that logic, would losing the war equal peace? Would losing love equal apathy?
                  
                  
                  Thanks for sharing,
                  
                  
                  Dan
                  
                  alternate poet 4 hours ago
                  
                  Thanks EVERYONE for your insightful and supportive comments. I have resisted answering comments on this poem because I really don't want to get into explanations
                  
                  
                  Daniel: You miss the point that the whole piece is a criticism of logic, only logic.

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                  1. 68

                     alternate poetposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     You misunderstand.  I actually do 'like you' if that is possible for online personae, I don't think what you have written is poetry and I gave you that opinion (more gently phrased) - because you asked for opinion.   
                     
                     You asked for criticism of your poetry, when I gave it you took that as attack and tried to attack me.   If you don't want criticism don't ask,  I do not ask for criticism of my poetry on hubpages I just post my stuff online through hubpages.  Anyone can read or not read - including you.
                     
                     To continue the criticism - you say your stuff is a few haiku etc - Haiku stands alone, it is much an integral part of being a Haiku as oriental eyes are a part of being Japanese.  To put a 'set' of haiku together is a well established tradition.  To dump a few verses, that you 'say' are Haiku, together is not only counter to the whole Haiku idea, it is an insult to those who can actually balance them successfully.

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                     1. 61

                        Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Alternate Poet,
                        
                        It may be bad poetry, but it's still poetry. Your criticism is poetry.
                        
                        I never attacked your criticism as far as I can tell. I merely check out the hubs of people who I see in the forums... I don't think I did anything wrong, but, again, that's okay. Like I said, I will stop reading your poetry.
                        
                        I hope that settles this.
                        
                        Thanks,
                        
                        Dan
                        
                        P.S.
                        
                        You ought to remove the comment section on your hubs. You can do that; you know.

                        replyreport
7. 60

   lady_love158posted 14 years ago

   I like emotional poetry. For me that's what poetry is about, like a painting I want to feel something when I look at it or read a poem. Maybe that's because that's the way I like to write, to put my emotion into words and hopefully the reader can identify with my emotion and feel it too.
   
   Still I don't get many readers either!

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8. 69

   Pearldiverposted 14 years ago

   Mr. Neumann...
   
   I believe that you are missing the very obvious, relevant and objective points that Alternate Poet has made here.
   
   Let me remind you that by your own conscious choice; you seek to find and publish here a style of expression that 'fits' you...
   Also by conscious choice.. you have attempted to promote your 'style' by opening this thread in the Extreme Rakeover Forum and by calling for critique!
   It has worked.... you have gained critique!
   Clearly.. you need to take it as it is meant.. rather than how it feels!
   
   As someone who writes Haiku and does so successfully... from a Haiku perspective; I believe that you are 1000 miles away from the spirit and code of Haiku.  By referring to your work as such; you merely endorse that critique!
   
   I completely agree with Alternate Poet in the points that he has raised... especially in regard to the vast difference in perspective between one who has much life experience and one that does not. To write well and with true perspective.. you MUST stand back from your work occassionally and view it through the eyes of the readers that you are attemping to 'seduce' with your work.
   I believe several of us are advising you (both Honestly and Objectively) that your 'seduction' is somewhat impotent!
   
   Don't mean to burst your bubble mate... but you also need to review what is being said to you Objectively! If you do; then I'm sure you will find that your true strengths are not where you think they are!

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   1. 61

      Daniel J. Neumannposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Pearl Diver,
      
      I think I am too.
      
      Alternate Poet is saying what I have written isn't poetry.
      
      He also says that it's not real haiku (and Tanka, by extension). I see no evidence to back that up. I'm following the syllable count (5-7-5…7-7). I'm talking about nature.
      
      I'd love to hear the real criticism. As you point out, that's what I'm asking for.
      
      You can say that my poetry is bad. You can even claim that my poetry isn't poetry. But without backing up those claims, all you've accomplished is my responding like this. I need to know what's actually wrong---not a declaration of my wrongness alone. How could that possibly help me?
      
      I mean, have you read what Alternate Poet has said to me so far? None of it helps my craft at all. He just states, "You don't have the skills to write about what you write about." Okay. That's fine. But why?
      
      I guess I'm a little upset because I expect more out of a professor.
      
      I appreciate the time you've put into your post, but please let me know what you'd change about my poetry (if you're so inclined).
      
      Thanks,
      
      Dan
      
      P.S.
      
      The first real advice I've gotten is to separate each haiku into its own hub... but I reject that notion, because the hub is short enough as it is. (I am still allowed to reject criticism I ask for, right?)

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