What is wrong with income on HP?

1. 74

   frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

   I ask because I am currently experiencing yet another traffic surge. I've gone from 200+ views per day to in excess of 1600. Yet the income remains pretty darn poor.
   
   I've brought this up more than once and I have to say that it's very very puzzling. In every other platfrom that I write on (i.e. my own sites), every time traffic increases, the revenue goes right up alongside.
   
   HPads cannabalize Adsense, which is so bad now (via HP) that it's laughable. Before Feb last year I was up to about $400 on Adsense (don't get me started about Amazon ) - and would have expected it to be quite a good bit more almost a year later.
   
   Now I'm lucky to see $70   - and that's when traffic's up. HPad revenue - doesn't come close to delivering what Adsense used to on it's own, not by a long way.
   
   So - traffic is up, how come the revenue doesn't even come close to matching?

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      TIMETRAVELER2posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      If I was lucky enough to make ANY money on this site, I sure wouldn't be complaining.  I am new, but my views for my first 25 articles seem like nothing compared to yours.  I've made $1.98 so far but I'm more interested in having people find and read my articles.  I am trying everything people suggest, but my progress is slow.  However, I'm only 2 weeks in, so maybe in time things will get better.  I was writing for another site and it was horrible...they messed it up so bad that I moved over here.  Oh well.

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   2. 62

      mymagicviewposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I have experienced the same thing. Pageviews doubled but earning remained the same. Today I got this message from Adsense.
      
      "Give more advertisers access to (Here my Hubpages subdomain address)". And they suggested me to use rich media ads and text ads together. But, I guess here on Hubpages, I don't have any control on ad units. (I think Hubpages already using text and media ads together!?")
      
      Honestly speaking, when I opted out from Hubpages ad Program, my monthly  earnings improved by 5 times. My earnings went from $40/month to $200/month.

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   3. 79

      ngurecoposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      My reasoning is this: HPads and Panda came at about the same time. With Panda, there was some loss of Google’s trust to the domain (and its sub-domains) which meant the site had to display ads from advertisers who bid a little bit lower values for ads than they previously used to do.
      
      The so-called ‘time for spring cleaning’ where they want you and I to update our hubs, including unpublishing Hubs with very low average time on page, may be about trying to improve Google’s trust so that advertisers can bid higher values for ads than they are currently doing.

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   4. 65

      Greek Oneposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      sorry Froggy... that was me just going through your hubs over and over again

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      1. 74

         frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         How many times Greek - I am not hiding the money that Mark Knowles (still) owes you *sighs*

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   5. 78

      sabrebIadeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      This may sound like a stupid question but does that mean to really make money on HP you need to be in the HP Ad program and not just straight Adsense?

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      1. 74

         frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         It's not a stupid question sabre and (my) honest answer is: yep. And no matter what I keep reading/hearing HP does not equal adsense. Plus the reporting is no use to those (like me) that do in fact work online as their main source of income - not as a hobby, something that they dabble in or because really, they don't need the money it's just fun, ya know?

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      2. 85

         Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Absolutely. If you're not in the Earnings Program, you're missing out.  Especially now that eBay is part of it.
         
         There are a few Hubbers who find that Adsense is more profitable than the HP program but not many.  The good thing about the HP program is that you can sign up, then switch it on and off to test which works better.

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      3. 66

         relacheposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         Having been with the Hub Ads program since the beta test, my opinion is "yes."

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2. 0

   SirDentposted 12 years ago

   It seems the CPM has fallen substantially lately for me also.  Made almost twice as much in a day's time than I make now with the same number of views.

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3. 78

   kirstenblogposted 12 years ago

   I wish I knew, my froggy friend
   At least with your sites, more traffic = mo' money. Sounds like that is the best place for your work efforts, at least for now. I still hope that at some point HP recovers to pre-panda reputation but wont be holding my breath. At least its still a fun place to make and chat with friends anyway

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4. 69

   Pearldiverposted 12 years ago

   Was this intended to be a Question that you expected to see answered accurately and with transparency FD?
   
   Very relevant as always your question here Green Thing
   
   Hi to you FD and Kirsty... H-H-H-H-Happy Year of the Dragon!

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5. 60

   Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago

   Just because, that's why, Andria! 

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6. 74

   frogdroppingposted 12 years ago

   @ SirDent - cheers for that. It's just too hard to keep track these days. The reporting's bare minimum (i.e. poor) and the rev is PP full stop.
   
   @ Kirsten - ahh well, I agree with you about making friends on HP. I sure made some good ones
   
   @ PD - ummmmm lol errrrr reckon I was aye. Maybe I shoudn't reckon? :p
   
   @ Randy - yah yah yah lol!

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7. 89

   Will Apseposted 12 years ago

   Adsense from my own sites and HP ads are both poor this month for me. Perhaps a post Xmas thing. Perhaps a deteriorating economy. I have seen worse months, though.
   
   These things always go up and down.
   
   It is good that your traffic jumped, at least.

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   1. 51

      janderson99posted 12 years agoin reply to this

      I don't understand why CPM should fluctuate so wildly. Mine has changed from 100 (not the real value) to 67 in 24 hours. The changes seem to be unrelated to traffic.
      
      Very low CPM for the last 4 days, higher before that. My last remaining adsense ad (the one at the bottom) is working well and remains steady.
      
      I wonder whether it has something to do with the 'deals' and changes to the Hubpages Ads and how appealing they are to users. Different advertisers may pay different rates.
      
      I have noticed that there are bad days when Hubpages traffic falls and the traffic for my other sites falls - its almost as if Google drops out for a few hours ( not true) but that is the effect. Its a worry!

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      1. 0

         promisemposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         If someone viewing your page isn't interested in advertising, they won't click, so your CPMs will go down.
         
         An hour later you might get someone who is interested, then your CPMs go up. It also depends on other sites competing for the same ads, whether a campaign is new, short term, demographically targeted and a host of other reasons.

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      2. 74

         David 470posted 12 years agoin reply to this

         My CPM is also very low -- about 1/3 less. My traffic is also going down and I am finding it hard to find amazing topics and keywords.

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         1. 73

            Richieb799posted 12 years agoin reply to this

            My CPM is down but traffic is still pretty good, I just feel that advertisers pay less this time of year. At least we don't have Panda to deal with this year..well, at least not from scratch.

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8. 61

   LindaSmith1posted 12 years ago

   I found this article that might be helpful
   http://www.promisemedia.com/online-adve … ry-tactics

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9. 60

   Jason Menayanposted 12 years ago

   Last year around the same time (i.e. November, December, and then January), when you were on AdSense-only (before we unveiled the Ad Program), did your earnings and CPM drop between December and January?
   
   Mine did not, but I have close to no "product" Hubs and no "Christmas effect" in terms of CPM in late November and December.

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   1. 74

      frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

      To me it's almost a given that there's a drop in Adsense around the festive period. I've seen it on my non-HP sites. But - nothing like HP. And I'm not talking so much about the decrease v time of year so much as the disparity between the traffic increase and the earnings increase.
      
      I just don't get how you can experience a massive increase in traffic (and it doesn't appear to be 'empty' traffic either - it's US based) and yet only see a blip in earnings. It's just odd, like there's something wrong somewhere and I just can't figure it out.
      
      It's kinda like this - the traffic bounces up 8.5 x's the normal flow, the income doubles from say $1 to $2. There's something wrong with that. Even for the online world, the math is way off.
      
      Everyone else - thank you for taking the time to leave an answer

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      1. 0

         EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         In my case, my earnings today are actually lower with over 1,000 views in one day than they were a few days ago with around 750 views, due to a significant drop in CPM.
         
         I think the maths is way off too. I can understand a scenario where earnings level off somewhat (say, if the increased views are coming from one or more "low CPM" hubs), but not where they actually go DOWN. That just doesn't make sense.

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      2. 60

         Jason Menayanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

         An 8.5x bump in traffic is very, very unusual. I'm guessing that, unless you were "plunged" before, then that traffic wasn't evenly distributed across your Hubs in proportion to what was getting traffic before, right?
         
         A huge bump without a similar jump in earnings could be direct traffic, or possibly traffic from a developing country, neither of which tends to have high eCPMs. Another possibility is that the traffic jump was directed to a Hub in a category with a relatively low CPM.
         
         Across the site, we noticed a (fairly typical) drop in CPM from December to the first couple of weeks of January, but that's slowly rising again. But that represents a much broader pattern of traffic than you might be seeing in your account.

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         1. 74

            frogdroppingposted 12 years agoin reply to this

            Jason my main account is really disturbing to look at over a 12 month period. The traffic swings are unbelievable. I know other hubbers have had a lift, then a drop but mine keeps doing it. It really does look like a roller-coaster layout. I honestly think something's wrong somewhere.
            
            A web site will experience ups and downs - that's the SERPs for you, but it's not to the extreme. It's just really odd.
            
            
            
            
            Sorry it's a bit small, not sure how to enlarge it

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            1. 86

               andyozposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               I feel sick looking at that graph!  That is even more messed up than mine!

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               1. 60

                  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  I wish I had that many peaks in my graph.  I've had one which lasted 2 days since I plunged Aug. 10th.  This after a steady rise in earnings and traffic since I'd joined.  One jump in the last 6 months!  I'm now back to fewer views than I had my first few months here.  Not too encouraging! 

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            2. 60

               Jason Menayanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Hmmm....after Panda, that looks like a plunge-and-recovery cycle. We have a Learning Center entry on what to do if you've experienced a plunge that might be helpful:
               http://hubpages.com/learningcenter/Subd … of-Traffic
               
               About Ad Program earnings: frankly, I don't know. It seems your fashion/clothing and pregnancy-related Hubs are your biggest traffic drivers. When you're "up" are fashion ones dominating your traffic? (My suspicion is that fashion has a lower CPM than pregnancy-related topics)

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            3. 85

               Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

               Mine was fairly steady until the beginning of December, but has been doing weird things since then.
               
               
               
               
               Goodness, my image is even smaller!

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               1. 97

                  PaulGoodman67posted 12 years agoin reply to this

                  My profile as a whole has been remarkably stable since mid-Sept, but I've had a number of individual hubs that have followed that kind of extreme pattern of plunging to almost zero and surging to high numbers, only to fall back again.

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10. 0

    promisemposted 12 years ago

    Bless you for posting a link to the article on my site. 
    
    I can offer a few other thoughts as someone who has worked with online advertising for a very long time.
    
    1. The time of year is a factor. CPMs drop in mid November and stay low through the holidays before starting to climb gradually in mid January.
    
    2. Our economy is still weak. If you write HubPages in the travel category, like I do, you will see problems because the travel category gets hurt more than most by the economy (discretionary spending).
    
    3. Competition is increasing faster than ad spending.
    
    4. Google is sharing less revenue.

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11. 79

    Garrett Mickleyposted 12 years ago

    I wish I could offer some words of advice but it seems like your issues are the opposite of mine.
    
    I've never been able to make more than a couple dollars a day on Adsense but with HP ads I'm making 4-5 times more than my adsense ever did.
    
    However, I have noticed that the more traffic I get, the less CPM I have.
    
    For a while I was getting less than 1000 hits a day (overall) and my CPM was between $5 and $10.  Now that I'm getting well over 1000 hits a day, my CPM has cut in half.  I attribute this to getting a lot of bounces and/or people who don't stay very long.

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    1. 0

       EmpressFelicityposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, this!
       
       Although things have improved for me since the New Year. However, I'm only earning a little more on HP Ads/Adsense now than I was on just Adsense before Panda. And back then, I had half the number of views.

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12. 66

    relacheposted 12 years ago

    This January my traffic is pretty much equal to this time last year, CPM is lower (comparing my results from the Hub ads beta test to now) but my earnings are set to top Jan 2011.

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    1. 0

       promisemposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I assume because of page view volume. I have the same situation -- higher page views but lower CPMs.

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    2. 87

       RedElfposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       2011, earning only through AdSense
       2012, earning through HubPages Ad Program
       
       Page views increased this year over same period last year by almost 30%
       Income (with 1/3 higher page views) dropped by 30%
       
       I don't get it... is that the CPM or should I try switching off HubPages Ads for a while?

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13. 67

    tnvrstarposted 12 years ago

    I have the answer. The reason is very simple. Our earnings depends on the CPM rate. Most of the user receiving significant traffic surge but the Hubpages total earnings is not increasing at that pace. If the page impressions is too much and total earning is less than the CPM rate will be lower.

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    1. 0

       promisemposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Page views everywhere are growing at a faster pace than ad revenue. So CPMs go down as a result.

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14. 60

    Randy Godwinposted 12 years ago

    I've quit trying to figure things out here.  I went from making hundreds a month to almost nothing.  I'm wondering with all of the spring cleaning suggestions if many are experiencing this now.  Nothing I've tried--removing ads, RSS, excess keywords, etc.-- has worked so I give up.  Apparently the big G is bouncing all over the place as many are complaining about the ups and downs lately.
    
    Very disheartening!  I would not recommend this site to anyone who might ask me about it at this point.

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15. 89

    Will Apseposted 12 years ago

    My second account never revived after plunging. I updated the articles that had done well and took them to Wizzley. The ones that never got any traction I've just abandoned.
    
    There seems to be a lot of different reasons for the plunges and I'm not sure anyone is safe. At the same time the advice Hubpages are putting out makes sense.
    
    Keep updating pages that are doing well (or have good user metrics and might one day do well). Cull anything outdated, redundant or with poor user metrics.
    
    All the stuff people have complained about like changing RSS feed set ups, making sure links and tags are strictly relevant, keeping Amazon capsule numbers down and (again) relevant are important if you want to avoid Panda.

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    1. 60

       Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       Sorry, I don't believe anyone has a clue to what google wants or those with multiple accounts would see all of them doing bad or good.  And besides, this may all change at any moment if google changes their algorithm again.  And they will. 
       
       It's all about the money. Their profits are the driving force behind the screwed up system we are forced to abide by if we attempt to write here or at any other content site.  When it gets to the point where stolen content outranks that of the original author, and google is responsible for allowing the thief to be there, it's just not worth it.  It's like someone pawning stolen goods and when the pawn shop owner gets caught selling it he says to the police officer "Gee I didn't know it was stolen" over and over and over.......!
       
       Who wants to spend their time retrieving the same stolen items stolen before.  If google cannot tell when they are promoting stolen content above that of the owner, HOW CAN WE DEPEND ON THEIR BOTS AND ALGORITHMS TO SEND THE SEARCHERS TO THE CORRECT SITE AND THE BEST INFO!
       
       DUH!

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16. 82

    SimeyCposted 12 years ago

    Some stats from me:
    
    Taking September as the baseline and comparing each month to September:
    
    October: views +50%; CPM +29% (Compared to Sept)
    November: views +550%; CPM -9% (Compared to Sept)
    December: views +540%; CPM - no change (Compared to Sept)
    January (estimate for month): views +450%; CPM -50% (Compared to Sept)
    
    January CPM is really heading down hill and I am seeing the lowest CPM since I joined HP Ads....

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    1. 89

       Will Apseposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       If CPM equals cost per a thousand impressions, you are saying October was a great month the rest were Ok and January is poor. Sounds about right.
       
       It would take two bad months for me to think about switching back to Adsense.
       
       If there were really 2 bad months, I hope Hubpages would think about reinstating the Adsense unit top right as well. I don't believe they can really offer Adsense or HP ads based on the best return.
       
       I did much better with that top ad spot as an adsense unit.

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17. 97

    PaulGoodman67posted 12 years ago

    My CPMs have dipped after some very good ones in the run up to Xmas.  It's disappointing, but not unexpected.  I am sure it relates to advertisers being unwilling to pay out post-Xmas, when consumers are often spent out (Adsense seems to have followed a similar pattern). I have faith that HP will be able to gradually increase it again over time.
    
    My traffic has also struggled to recover fully since the pre-Xmas peak and the subsequent dip for the holidays.  Nothing too drastic though.  My traffic pattern looks relatively normal compared to the "disturbing" Frogsdropping one that's posted above(!)

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    1. 60

       Jason Menayanposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       We have some control over some things, but we have no control over macro-level trends in the online ad market.
       
       Through the Ad Program, we can set up various ad providers in a competitive situation in which the highest bidder wins the slot (that's very often AdSense, and we can deliver more than 3 Google ad units per page through a special arrangement with them). We also now have the ability to optimize the formatting through our custom javascript setup through Google, which improves visibility and click-through. But that's pretty much it.
       
       We can't force advertisers to bid higher than they're willing to pay, which is why the post-Christmas slump is something just about everyone except weight-loss publishers notice in early January.

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          PaulGoodman67posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks for your detailed reply, Jason.  I appreciate the work that HP are doing.  To be honest, I expected a bigger dip than has happened.  I just don't like any dips, of course, even if they are unavoidable - but I appreciate that the situation is likely to gradually improve as we move towards Spring.  Hub Ads have been a great success since their introduction, in my experience.

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18. 58

    WD Curry 111posted 12 years ago

    Okay, I know nothing about this except what I have learned in a little over three months. I have no experience at all on the net other than research. I can kick graphics programs around, and don't like to put my good computer on the net. I might get tempted to download an update and screw up my programs.
    
    Anyway, since I have exerted myself to find my way around this new town, I have noticed something. There are scads of IT, and programming grads with malicious intent. Over the last three months, several groups of hackers have been busted for dropping Trojan Horses and the like into the mix and redirecting traffic and clicks to their own computers. Some gang in Estonia made millions. They got caught by NASA. Their bug was disguised as a video URL on a porn site. The media made a big deal about the fact that two hundred computers at the Cape were infected and tried to spin it to make it look like NASA personnel were getting jiggy at work. The techs at NASA pointed out that the Trojan Horse was full of Greek Hoplites that found their way into computers that had never visited the porn site.
    
    Is it possible that HubPages and others are being pick-pocketed?

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       Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       I'm beginning to believe anything is possible here, WD.  The thieves seem to be better at the game than those fighting against them.  I know nothing about this stuff but what my common sense tells me.  This worries me, as my common sense seldom fails me in matters of dealing with online content sites or businesses.  Like my granpa used to say so eloquently: "Whar thar's smoke, thar's far"!

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          WD Curry 111posted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I was just wondering, they were ripping off Google and others. Granddaddy knows best.

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    2. 87

       IzzyMposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       That's an interesting scenario, but certainly not what is happening in my case as most of my hubs can't be found in the search engines unless you look for the exact url.
       If my hubs were still all on the front page and my traffic had dropped, then this would certainly be worth considering.
       This updating we are being encouraged to do, wouldn't be because of the Google Freshness update? Why can't we bring back the news capsule then? That's what it did.
       I updated a few hubs before my internet stopped (apologies to anyone who has mailed me over the past week, I have not enough bandwidth to send an email and have stopped even trying to load my mailbox now), and saw their hubscore rise, and then fall again a few days later, with no traffic gained from the change.
       
       500 hubs and a dollar a day. That's Hubpages for you!

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19. 78

    sabrebIadeposted 12 years ago

    Thanks for responding.
    Looks like that's pretty much unanimous so far.

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       Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

       You do know you can also use eBay through the HP program?

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          sabrebIadeposted 12 years agoin reply to this

          I haven't used E-Bay, just Adsense.
          Would I have to get an ebay account etc?
          (Okay now I do feel like I'm hijacking the thread....LOL)

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          1. 85

             Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this

             No, that's the whole point.  You can't use your own eBay account on HP these days - it's all part of the HP Earnings program.

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20. 85

    rabbit75posted 12 years ago

    hubpages has their own ebay program that you can sign up for...I do believe you don't need an ebay account...hubpages tracks which ebay sales you make off which hubs and then they add it to your hubpages ad program account if you have one.

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21. 72

    Ddraigcochposted 12 years ago

    I have only really come back to HP this week, so not really in a position to state  much about HP to be fair. I can state that I don't make enough on Hpads to qualify for payout with in the next 8 years at this rate, so I have shut them off for now.
    I hope one of the Google updates works in my favour, as I am yet to even see much increase in my earnings, they seem to constantly go down across the board, even with 41 hubs here and 38 articles on InfoBarrel.

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