We're all racist in some ways. But racism by white people seems to be more newsworthy and gets more attention than racism by others. There are many people who work hard to not do anything to offend their fellow human, but it's impossible to escape prejudice - it's hardwired into our bodies.
Nevertheless, whites are expected to make more of an effort than other races to combat racism within the ranks of other white people. If racism is the root of so many problems, why isn't it looked upon as an equal challenge for all people, not just white people?
The left wing media's denial of non-white racism, in fact, fuels the white supremacist organizations.
I don't believe it is hard wired into our bodies. As a child I wasn't aware of color. I think it was probably when I hit high school that we became aware of it.
I know my son wasn't aware of it. I remember when he came home confused because someone told him he shouldn't play with the neighbor's daughter because she was black. It was funny because the ones who said it were foreigners. It kind of irritated me that they would bring their prejudices to our country.
Interesting inquiry to say the least.
Yes, racism is an extension of a tribal mentality, but civility demands that we rise above our baser instincts if we hope to survive as a species.
Since white males have the dominant wealth and power in America (that is documented), racism from this source means discrimination that can affect your life. Where do black people have comparable power and resources? You don't need to be concerned about what I think, just simply shrug your shoulders and move on.
So it's jealousy then? Does that fact mean whites need "knocked down" a peg because of our successes?
No, but have not much of the success of the white culture comes at the expense of the non-white minorities? Has it really been fair?
No, it is not about jealousy, people are always going to put those in their own tribe first, that is natural. Simply stated, all of us do not see the current scenario as something that whites should brag about as something that they have earned.
Yes, Caucasian success in America was & is somewhat still at the expense of non-Caucasians. Caucasians used racism to establish sociopolitical, socioreligious, & socioeconomic hegemony in the United States & most of the world. Caucasians imparted their language, culture, & ethos upon the countries they colonized. Caucasians also imparted their racial preference as in many societies, the Caucasoid/Europid beauty standard is considered to be superior. Non-Caucasians who approximate Caucasians/Europeans in looks are oftentimes granted more access to socioeconomic success than Non-Caucasians who look more ethnic.
Also, the theory of Caucasian racism towards non-Caucasians are based upon underlying jealousy & fear of genetic annihilation(Dr. Frances Welsing, The Isis Papers). Caucasians have melanin recessive while non-Caucasians in varying degrees are melanin dominant with Blacks/ Africoids being the most melanin dominant. To Caucasians, racism is a bulwark against genetic annihilation. According to many Africentric authors, Caucasians secretly wish that they had more melanin & since they don't, have an underlying envy towards non-Caucasians which they express by subduing them as they fear that if non-Caucasians really have full sociopolitical, socioreligious, & socioeconomic power, the former would be completely annihilated. So racism is practiced by Caucasians as a way to retain their genetic power so to speak.
I follow the first paragraph.
The second paragraph includes an elaborate explanation that may well be too complex for the situation. Do you think that fear of genetic annihilation was really the motive? I think that the explanation is far simpler, just the maintenance of power and wealth among their own, and just another way to eliminate competition for hotly contested goods and services.
But, I have seen pictures of lynched black men in the South burned alive, flayed and genitally mutilated after death, all among crowds in a surrounding carnival like atmosphere. This goes a level or two beyond the most loathsome of the gangbangers. I cannot understand that level of hatred toward any human being, even the Nazi's were not this sadistic. So, I have to allow for any possibility.
I have seen pictures of blacks in worse shape in Rwanda at the hands of other blacks.
I have seen, under the Third Reich, white on white atrocities.
Rwanda is not the United States of America with its vaunted ideals of the equality of man. As the leader of the free world, trumpeting democracy and equal rights, I have the right to expect more and I do.
The conversation about hangings et reminds me of the horrors of war. Fragging is a term that was coined during the Vietnam war. Officers and other military colleagues were hung by their own men or killed by grenades and other means, an estimated nine hundred. The lack of discipline was to blame.
We can all be more virtuous.
Crowds gathered for centuries to cheer at hangings and executions. Public torture was another way to draw a crowd. To say Nazi's weren't that sadistic ignores mountains of evidence of what the Jews were subjected to in concentration camps.
We all have the tendency to sympathize with the history of the group we feel most associated with but past atrocities do not give ample justification for present prejudices or injustices. Don't we have an obligation to build a better world?
It simply seems to me that all people with whiter skin are somehow held responsible as a group and viewed with suspicion because of any action of any white person or white controlled government over the centuries. White people in America with no power to enslave, no desire to marginalize and no thought of infringing on the rights of others should be viewed as such and should be treated equal under the law and in the eyes of their fellow citizens.
There is power in being identified as the victim. I do think many currently alive who have never been in the position of being the victim attempt to gain power by insisting they are entitled to play the victim and receive preferential treatment because others have suffered. This fuels current prejudice, expands it and sets the stage for future prejudice.
I hear you L to L, absolutely we have an obligation to build a better world.
I don't think that it is white and black, it is cultural. I had visited Germany in 1978 as a young man while in the military and the racial vibes simply were not there. I could 'lower shields' realizing that racism in America did not necessarily transfer to other societies. The racial animosities that were a part of American culture that you had to always psychological prepared yourself to compensate for, simply were not there. Ask Grace Williams, she will corroborate this for you.
I am not blaming anybody. If Africans had came to America via the Mayflower with superior technology (gunpowder) and the natives on this continent were white, the situation would have been identical to what is transpiring today. White folks may well have been saying 'we shall overcome' instead. I say that because I look around the world and I don't see any group or ethnicity that can claim to wear a halo relative to any other.
I said that about the Nazis because it appeared that what mayhem they did commit toward Jews and other undesirables was not something that they invited their wives and children to observe. Those public lynchings in the South were 'come one and come all'.
We can't return and readdress the past. It does not matter, who ever has the gold, rules That principle transcends racial animosity. In this American culture the whites have the gold, relative to others. That involves economics, political power and cultural influence. It is about power and maintaining it, and the Anglo-Saxon European got the luck of the draw in this reality, today. But, the situation could have been reversed under different circumstances. I am not speaking of individual people but the culture at large.
While not asking for preferential treatment, it is not too much to ask that people acknowledge that circumstances were unfair and while strides have been made to improve that record, many problems still remain. So, to say that racism has the same effect on whom it is directed within this culture regardless of which direction it comes is inaccurate. We cannot escape the past as it has a great deal to do with where we are here in the present. Is anyone willing to take the cookie jar, toss it, and reorient everything so that we all start from the same point? I doubt it. My grandfather who worked in the railroad industry could not be a railroad engineer regardless of his talent,(1940s) as he could not be hired for such jobs because of his race. This was told to him many times, so how much more successful would his progeny have been with the additional income and prestige?
I am all for letting 'bygones be bygones', but we would be foolish to forget what has transpired and the price paid for what progress has been made.
You can't floor sort the cookie jar. And, attempts to 'correct' are always less than perfect. We have a bank here in this state. It's in other states too but I am particularly aware of it because of my interactions with it. Apparently there was some question of its hiring practices and it chose to 'correct them'. What we ended up with were multiple branches throughout this state which suddenly had black women as branch managers. But.. and this is a big but. They weren't really branch managers. They had none of the responsibility, none of the power to make decisions and none of the power to be an active and positive force in the community. They were managers in name only. I see now that their titles have been changed to team leaders. I suppose, in response to the collective chuckle garnered by pretending that any positive action had been done by the bank.
I wonder how the tellers who worked there for years felt. Being passed over in order to have a 'corrective' action put in place. Was it fair to those women? No. Should they suffer because of past actions by others? Not in my opinion. I don't think harming the lives of some, to compensate for possible harm done to others makes sense. What it does is start the cycle of abuse again. Just with different people. Now, I suppose it could reasonably be argued that if we bounce back and forth, correcting transgressions, harming a few to compensate for what may or may not have happened to others, eventually we may reach a point where it is all over and no one will be hurt anymore. And that may be true, or not. But what is definitely true is that these actions create animosities toward those who are given preferential treatment and they are justifiable animosities. I shouldn't pay for the sins of another and neither should they.
Hard to say. Was your grandfather qualified to be an engineer or did he just want to be one? If he had been a different skin color would he have gotten a job as an engineer? Would he, had he gotten the job, retained the job? Would he have gone on to other things? And, I don't know how your family works but apparently not like mine. My success is not in any way tied to the success of my father. No opportunity was given to me that would not have been available otherwise because of my connection to him. Yes, I did receive an inheritance upon his death but that isn't enough to change my stars or that of my offspring. Yes he was well liked within the community but that does not raise me in their estimation; that I am aware of.
Whatever program is being used at the bank is just an attempt to check off boxes. The program, that I presume you are speaking of Affirmative Action? Yes, it is not fair to put clearly unqualified people ahead of others without any basis besides race. But, I experienced hostility when I was hired for a plum job in the Civil Service. The disgruntled fellow workers said that I was favored only because of Affirmative Action, much like Trump says about Obama and his Harvard pedigree. How credible does that sound to you? It did not matter that you were qualified to a greater extent than those malcontents, YOU were not supposed to be there. If it were not for such programs mandated by the Feds, I would not be hired at all, period. The program was designed to make sure that we had a chance to compete, not provide preferential treatment. The program was created specifically to address the fact that whites were always treated preferentially in the employment process, keeping otherwise qualified minorities out.
Grandpapa had the same qualification as those that were given the jobs during that period. My point is that wealth is a generational process. And we know that wealth and its influence gives the offspring advantages. We also know that those with the greatest opportunity for upward mobility are those whose parents enjoy a relatively affluent status, so the idea of pulling ones self up by ones bootstraps is overrated. I can't speak to your individual case, but I can document the general truth of the transfer of wealth and influence among families. Of course, the affluent tend to pass on their status to their children, who can deny that? Grandpop was told explicitly why he could not qualify for the job as there were no black engineers and no one wanted to start a precedent. Back in the 1940's, nobody needed to say that they were sorry and the push for equal employment opportunity was decades into the future.
So why did it take so long for Jackie Robinson, a superb baseball athlete, to be allowed to play in the major leagues? If you think about this, then what I tell you here will make more sense.. How much money did he and his family lose because of his race, as he was the best and not allowed to compete?
Credence, why do you and others keep bringing up lynchings in the South? The west probably lynched more human beings than any other area. The north tarred and feathered miscreants and people of ill repute. I understand R.J.'s question is about racism, but it seems that the South remains the country's whipping boy.
That's interesting! I wasn't aware of the magnitude of activity outside the south. Where are sources for that information?
Diane, I have a history minor, and my sources would be any U.S. history book with a chapter on the wild wild west, post Civil War. 1870-1890 or so. That would be white on white atrocities or white/Native American atrocities, but I guess that doesn't count in modern-day thinking. That was the context of my question. It seems that American descendants of warring Northern Europeans inherited their ancestors' genes, but Southern whites bear the brunt of the blame. Also these same history books write of certain African tribes selling into slavery members of the weaker tribes. Maybe modern-day history books have written this part out. I studied history in the late 1950s and early 1960s so that was a long time ago.
Some others here and I have discussed this on other forums. I never, never studied anything about slavery in school. I went to school in Arkans in the 50s and 60s. I was a living witness to the integration of Central High School and I graduated from there in 1968.
McGraw-Hill, education text publisher tried to add slavery to their books in 2015 and got checked by a parent who was also a teacher.
COMPANY APOLOGIZES FOR TEXAS TEXTBOOK CALLING SLAVES 'WORKERS': 'WE MADE A MISTAKE'
http://www.newsweek.com/company-behind- … ade-380168
If you can direct me to a textbook that covered it, I'd love to see how it was done. McGraw-Hill is trying to work on it. It is hard for them to put that in black and white.
It doesn't matter who did it. It was wrong. If I kill one of yours because you kill one of mine, we are both murderers. There is no excuse for slavery anywhere. If I were in Africa, I hope I would be able to state it from there. However, once they were here and freed, white people would not extend the boudaries of the Constitution to include them.
Then the hatred, to the point of killing them for the least thing, and disparaging them in every way possible was evil.
Diane, I wasn't speaking of slavery. I was speaking of the other atrocities that were committed by the United States of America. I just asked why slavery TODAY seems to be the only one mentioned. Did you study about Judge Parker of Ft. Smith? I studied about him in Arkansas History., but he was only one example. He hanged WHITE people, and for things that might bring minor sentences today. Today there is a museum in his honor because he had the law on his side, but that didn't justify his actions either.
"Over the years, Judge Parker sentenced 160 men to death by hanging, though only 79 of them were actually hanged. The rest died in jail, appealed or were pardoned."
Thanks MizBejabbers. Responses like this are a welcome dose of reality.
Diane, Here's one of the sources I was looking for. The Emancipation Proclamation did not free slaves in the Union States of Missouri, Delaware, Kentucky and Maryland. It took the 14th Amendment to free them. That is hypocrisy to say that racism and bigotry were only in the South when slaves existed in Northern states, and they didn't have to free their own.
http://www.history.com/news/5-things-yo … ancipation
Oh Damn MizBejabbers! Now I am going to have to once again explain an appreciation for a fresh breeze in your perspective. Not that it alters the foundation of the issue, but a little context is always useful in helping folks find the right track..
But, GA, we all know that the Emancipation Proclamation only freed slaves in states that were in rebellion against Union. Lincoln was clever in this move to not be the abolitionist, but attack the issue of secession. He did not suggest changing the status of slavery for those states that remained in the Union. Nobody denies that racism and bigotry existed and exists in the North as well. Up South, Down North- De jure vs de facto. It all comes out the same in the wash.
Hi Cred, the conversation hasn't been about emancipation, it has been about slavery in the South and the perspective that anything of the South can only be symbolic of slavery. MizBejabbers comments have added the context that slavery was not just a Southern issue.
Hi Cred, the conversation hasn't been about emancipation, it has been about slavery in the South and the perspective that anything of the South can only be symbolic of slavery. MizBejabbers comments have added the context that slavery was not just a Southern issue.
The South is multidimensional like anything and anywhere else. I certainly did not mean to imply that the South was solely defined by "Slavery". But while we are on the subject it, is sort of hard to avoid acknowledging that by the eve of the Civil War, you could draw a line across the midsection with 'free states' above and 'slave states' below.
While the issue of slavery embroiled the entire nation, we cannot overlook the obvious...
"Union States of Missouri, Delaware, Kentucky and Maryland"
Interesting, I see documented movement of slaves in my family to those places. I didn't even consider rather Illinois, West Virginia, Virginia, or Ohio were considered the south. I just knew that had slaves.
It makes sense that slaves would have to go to Canada to escape slavery.
Canada was the only really safe place. The Fugitive Slave Laws of the earlier parts of the 19th century made it dangerous for escaped slaves to remain in US, even in any of the 'free states"
Diane, I agree that you are right about the only safe place for escaped slaves was Canada. I do have feelings for all the slaves and the families of slaves who came after them. I just get tired of Southern history being rewritten by white Northern hypocrites. My great great great grandfather had a brother or cousin who was a slaveowner on a large plantation in Mississippi. He apparently had a slave mistress or mistresses (like Thomas Jefferson, they had children). Our family has welcomed his biracial descendants into our Family History page on Facebook and we keep in touch with them.
MizB, after almost a year I have forgotten the context in which those comments were made. As you will see in the link and from my aspect as a black person, the Southern states exceeded others in this area, bar none.
http://atlantablackstar.com/2015/02/24/ … 1882-1968/
The terror, particularly race based, was much more firmly entrenched within the South over any other region in the country.
However, that being said, you check my profile and you will see that I currently reside in the South. While it has had as ugly a past as any documented as part of American History, it is proof positive that circumstances and attitudes can change.
I am retired and can live anywhere I want, within reason, of course. I selected the South, leaving Hawaii as too expensive and isolated. I came here because of the mild climate, the relatively low cost of living and the easier pace of life. I have not been disappointed. I have lived all over the country, and the people here are as nice and friendly as any I have encountered. I certainly would not have even entertained the idea of moving here if the 'Old South' was still the dominating reality. I am as 'uppity' as they get. There is the occasional Rebel Flag, here and there. But no one has bothered me or mine.
So, MizB, I do not pick on the South, but its past is well documented and is anything but pleasant.
Look up wealthy blacks and see how wealthy they tend to be.
And we were placed in this position by white people who profited from the labor of slaves. Most were given nothing when they were freed. They were not allowed to get an education so they couldnt read or write.
Caucasians are the only ones capable of practicing racism because racism entails power of the dominant over the subordinate in terms of determining the access &/or quality of education, housing, health care, living conditions, jobs, & other quality of life issues. Although Blacks & other non-Caucasians can be prejudiced, they can't be racist as non-Caucasians don't have the power to determine the access &/or quality of education, housing, health care, living conditions, jobs, & other quality of life issues.
The word defined - the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
Sorry, but your SJW narrative doesn't cut it
GM Williams is absolutely correct! Your denial is predictable because this accurate assessment doesn't fit the racist narrative you want to promote. I also saw in this thread you commented something about black people needed to earn your respect. I had to laugh when I saw that. Isn't 400 years of free labor, and 100 years of Jim Crow enough to get just a little bit of respect? And you should be thankful the black people here didn't do what the Haitians did to their oppressors. I'd say the black people in the U.S. have been more than patient.
And I'm sure you couldn't have missed the FBI report in 2006 warning that the KKK had infiltrated Police Departments across the U.S.. That was ten years ago! What do you think the KKK have be doing in those blue uniforms for the last ten years Ralph? I'll help you along:
They have been facilitating the flow of drugs into black communities throughout the United States. And it's a win, win, win, for the Klan. They help to destroy the black community with drugs, they incarcerate young black men who start using and dealing the drugs that they helped to provide, and they get a nice kickback from the sale of the drugs.This is how they are destroying the black community, in the light of day, by trading their white hoods for a blue uniform. And when that's not enough they get their kicks by shooting Tamir Rice, or Anton Sterling, or by lynching Sandra Bland.
And so, the African and the Indigenous are being oppressed by two different sides of the same coin. The U.S. government and the Klan. But you never figure these details into your "I'm not racist but ..." narrative.
Need a little cheese with the whine?
If someone offered me drugs I'd refuse. If someone were actively selling them in my community I'd do everything possible to remove them, or if I couldn't I'd move.
The blame game is fine but it cannot fully remove the need for personal responsibility. This is one thing missing from the discussion. If you buy into a system you can't expect others not to question why you don't opt out.
So are you suggesting that Tamir Rice should have been responsible and not played with toy guns in the park? The only problem that black people have is the same problem my people have had for 500 years, and that is the problem of white supremacy. And it looks like people "are" taking responsibility. Black Lives Matter, Jesse Williams, the Mexica Movement, A.I.M. and a host of others are speaking out and taking action against this evil system. Yes, we are going to whine, and march, and do whatever is necessary to bring this dog to heel.
Martin Luther King and Malcolm X were both righteous men who wanted the same thing, but Martin made the mistake of thinking you could appease and pacify those who hate you; those who want to keep you down; and those who want to kill you. Love and Peace look good on paper, but even Jesus could not pacify the evil that stands behind white supremacy with Love and Peace. He was hated by many, and then hung up on a cross.
Malcolm X said of Martin Luther King:
"He got the peace prize, we got the problem.... If I'm following a general, and he's leading me into a battle, and the enemy tends to give him rewards, or awards, I get suspicious of him. Especially if he gets a peace award before the war is over."
I do not believe that this statement necessarily tarnishes the legacy of MLK, as he fought, suffered, and was murdered just as Malcolm X. This statement , more importantly, reveals the cunning and insidious nature of the white supremacists. It reveals how an evil system co-opted the Civil Rights Movement by exploiting the popularity of MLK and his message of non-violence. It is absurd to suggest that a non-violent, oppressed group of people, can win a war against another group who does not hesitate to use violence against them. Since when did the U.S. government use a non-violent approach to Imperialist Aggression? Since when did the Zionists use a non-violent approach to their oppression of the Palestinian people?
All of these governments who stress non-violence use violence as their ultimate tool of diplomacy. The most horrific example of this in modern times is the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And if anyone in the peanut gallery wants to suggest that the U.S. government, or Israel are simply defending themselves with weapons of mass destruction, then you have only agreed with my position! Because that is what the black people are doing now. They are attempting to defend themselves against an enemy who has been attacking them for 500 years! And that enemy is white supremacy. Police Brutality is just one manifestation of white supremacy. In the late 60's many believed that our goal was equality. But today that is not our goal. We have no desire to be equal to a rapist, a thief , and a murderer. The Colonialist Invaders gave us Jesus and told us to love our enemies. After which they proceeded to rape our women, steal our lands, enslave us, and commit the greatest act of genocide in the last 500 years. What kind of a fool would love this kind of enemy? We are all out of love. Today, our goal is total freedom from white supremacy. And we will accept nothing less.
In war more often the numbers of people win. When whites are reduce by 5% in the next 20 years, people of color win. Just a few bad apple whites need to be locked up anyways.
When the 'law' conducts themselves in an unlawful manner I am a firm believer that they should be held to the letter of the law and if found guilty punished to the full extent of the law so, no, I don't think Tamir Rice was responsible. I would ask how a community allowed itself to devolve to the point that a 12 year old playing with a toy gun could be perceived as a threat. I could ponder why the parents of a 12 year old boy would stay in a community which had devolved to that point.
That is what I was talking about when I said blame, even fairly laid, does not negate personal accountability. No one is 100% a victim. I am a firm supporter of the BLM movement. I just don't support constant whining negativity which appears to only hope to achieve something for absolutely nothing.
I suppose you missed the whole point of the Jesus story. Oh well. Martin Luther King didn't.
You got me. I agree with Obama when he said something to the effect that if someone was lobbing scud missiles into his backyard where his kids were playing he would be surprised if someone had a problem with a reaction from him.
Your comments are, again, a prime example of the problem. Whining, whining, whining....without any attempt to see the problem from both sides. I'm sure whining has some cathartic properties but it exacerbates a problem.
I suppose you believe an attempt to spare the lives of service men and women who had not been party to starting a world war should never have been taken into account. The aggressors should have been given each and every consideration the non aggressors were not given. I'm afraid war creates tragedy. Don't start one and you might avert some of that.
Can we all say 'overly dramatic' together? You aren't going to get any points with intelligent and thoughtful people of color with that little chicken little statement.
Who, out of curiosity, is we? You aren't black. I hear you aren't native american. You aren't latino. Can I assume we have a case similar to Rachel Dolezal here?
I could care less what a racist American thinks of me. No more than I care about Earthworms, Fire Ants, or Vultures. If you had educated yourself, you would know who we are. We are the Indigenous First Nations and Mixed Race People of North and South America.I have been fighting these racist dogs since I was a child. just as my Father and Mother before me, as they were great warriors.
Furthermore, "Native American and Latino" are derogatory terms that are no better than the "N-Word". "Latino","Hispanic", "Native American", and "Indian" are genocidal terms that are being used to erase Indigenous identity. I would never shame myself and say that I am "Native American". That would be foolish since my people existed on this continent long before the Invaders came. We are all Nican Tlaca.
Somehow, nothing you say as to who you are is believable. I just fed 50 native Americans on their walk toward Washington. They identified themselves as such and each shared which tribe they were from.
Not one among them had anything to say remotely similar to the vitriol you are spewing. They were positive, kind and it was a pleasure to feed them as they stopped in their journey.
I doubt you are anything other than an American mutt who wants desperately to be a victim. I've met many of them over the years. Very, very sad.
Your analysis is remarkable only for the fact that you actually created a composition that consisted of more than a soundbyte.
Anyone who refers to themselves as such may mean well, but they are not educated. Their minds have been colonized. We are working to de-colonize the minds of the people, as they have suffered through 500 years of genocidal policies. Furthermore, just like in the black community, there are those among us who want to appease the white man; they want to go into the melting pot and forfeit their cultural identity for a piece of the American Pie. But they are only traitors, and I have more respect for the white supremacists. I have more respect for Ralph, since at least he has the courage to express his true sentiments, and to be himself; not a caricature created by another race of people.
I have well documented my race in Forums online as well as various Hubs I have written. I am not a PC person. Because of your uninformed and insulting commentary, you are not deserving of a quick and easy answer. If you want to know, then you can find out on your own.
Your attitude is just as demeaning as what you label 'the white man'. Agree with you or be trivialized, marginalized and insulted. You may have more respect for Ralph (whoever that is) but you garner no respect for yourself by this attitude.
Considering the nonsensical and unrealistic comments you've posted thus far in several forums I have read through I see no reason to believe anything you write. So your 'race' is documented only by your word. Which, unfortunately, is not of much value.
LOL. Uninformed and insulting is most descriptive of you. Not anyone else.
Come on LtL, he might be insulting and uninformed and arrogant beyond belief, but you can't tell me you aren't attracted to his raw sexual magnetism
Apparently, it is you who are attracted to me because even though I have not invited you, you keep talking about me and following me around like a troll. If you are Gay then you should understand that I have no interest in that area, so perhaps you should look elsewhere. I can only imagine how boring your life must have been before you realized an intelligent person like me actually existed. Of course you will now respond with another derogatory comment. How boring, and how predictable. Goodbye!
do I need a formal invitation to mock <personal attack snipped> such as yourself?
Do "trolls" readily mock people they are attracted to?
Who is following who around? I replied to LtL. You in turn butted in, uninvited.
Of course, they are all watching you now. They all know that when someone continues to insult another person, over and over again, in three separate Forums in the course of one day, that the person they are insulting must have really gotten under their skin. And of course, that is exactly what I did, although that was not my intention. Some people can run faster, and jump higher than others. You'll just have to get over it.
You are angry because I did not give you a thumbs up for the first post that you made which was quite detailed, but of very little substance. You must have spent a lot of time on that post, and so you were offended by my lack of interest. In the future , if approval or acknowledgement of your efforts is that important, you can save yourself some time by posting a short comment first and then see how they respond.
How is your race, or anyone else's race documented? How do I know if you are a man or a woman, black or white,young or old? How does anyone know these things unless they personally know someone? The fact is they don't. Even if someone sent a birth certificate to you Fed Ex, ( and who's gonna do that?) how would you really know it belonged to them? The point is, everyone's race here is only documented by their word, including yours.
Furthermore, I happen to care that innocent people have been getting murdered by the cops my entire life. I am all out of love and patience, and so are a lot of other people obviously. And I doubt very much that I have insulted you. I have strongly disagreed with your opinions but I have not attacked your character. And if I did please show me where. You, like many others here cannot tolerate someone with a strong conviction and a differing opinion, and so you falsely construe that as being insulting. You are also insulted that I have no respect for an evil system that you seem to admire. That's something you're just going to have to get used to. People are getting educated and starting to understand the fiction of American Democracy.
He's getting his talking point directly from http://www.mexica-movement.org/ I didn't realize they were still around, lol.
And so what is the implication? I have had the pleasure of being acquainted with members of the Mexica Movement. They are very intelligent and friendly human beings. I am proud to know them. They are not cowards looking for the approval of their oppressors. They are educating our people and bringing back the culture and identity that was stolen from us by the evil colonizers. And their movement continues to grow!
I also get my talking points from a variety of other sources. That's how people educate themselves. Howard Zinn, Ida B Wells, W.E.B Dubois,Henry David Thoreau, Tecumseh, Emma Goldman, Errico Malatesta,Karl Marx, Malcolm X, Thde Lakota ,The Aniyunwiya, A.I.M, Bartolome de las Casas, MLK,and many other sources. Many of my talking points are also related to my personal experience with racism in America, along with the fact that my parents were Civil Rights Activists.
This is why I know that much of what is said in these types of Forums is based on hyperbole and emotion, but very little fact. The majority here have not taken the time to study and to contemplate the history. Nor has a majority taken the time to explore current issues; issues and events that receive little or no rotation in the mainstream government controlled media. And most importantly, it is not possible for a white man to understand the meaning of racist oppression in a country where the white man is the majority.
Do you really think People are not that concern and educated about racism that the only way to be concern is to act out of control of the situation with violence.
Race and wars have been around for centuries only large numbers of life lost because of racism and inocent people are killed who are no part of the issues
Man takes life .But its God who can undo all evil acts and return it.
But he will not create the same world with players of violence.
No can you control your temper and attitude on this subject.
Because what you do now is a test of your faith that your Heavenly Father can do anything.
Even end racism.
Remember when we arrived on this planet it fucntion with out us on it.
It can still function without us when God intervenes.
But will we keep living here as he grants it or will he remove the problems which could also include us if we act in violence.
What do you think this scripture is talking about.
Isaiah 2:4 says ' nore will they learn war no more'
Either we fit this or we will be the ones removed.
Mat 26:52 'Those who take up the sword will parish by the sword.'
Proverbs 2;22 says for the wicked will be cut off from the earth.
But the righteous one into everlasting life.
We might live here, but we do not control the future to keep staying here it is granted.
First of all, people who are trying to oppress and kill you don't care about Peace and Love. How much Peace and Love did Martin Luther King get for preaching non-violence? It did nothing but earn him a bullet, just like many others. Tyranny and evil cannot be appeased, as Neville Chamberlain and Adolf Hitler reminded the world in 1938.
But you are the one talking about violence. I am talking about education, and freedom from racial oppression and tyranny. But since you brought it up: A majority of Americans support violence when it appears to meet their own ends. How many times have you heard even Christians say that we need a strong military to defend our freedom? I have heard this lie so many times it makes me nauseous. The United States has the most well armed and well trained military in the world. How does this jive with Pollyanna and Jesus? If a majority of Americans truly believed that Peace and Love were the answer, then they would be turning the other cheek instead of using weapons of mass destruction.
Many Americans want to have it both ways. They want to kill and destroy when they claim they are being threatened. Yet, when the Black and the Indigenous are being threatened and murdered, they admonish us to be peaceful, and to love our enemies. But the charade is over. Just as they say: No Justice No Peace. The mainstream has had 50 years since the assassination of Martin Luther King to end the systemic racism and economic oppression of our people. But they have done nothing but fuel the Imperialist aggression of an evil government with their tax dollars, while spending their time watching soap operas, shopping at the mall, and buying new clothes, new houses, and new cars. What you see unfolding before you now is nothing but the hand of God. And God is with us, not with our oppressors.
And you will note that I say "our' people. I and the Mexica Movement stand with BLM and the black people. As a child, it was not the black people who tried to force my Father and Mother from the 200 acre farm that they worked and paid for. My Father was also a veteran of World War II. And like many people of color, after fighting in the war, he returned home and had to continue fighting for his right to be a man. My parents were even forced on several occasions to arm themselves and violently confront the racist whites. God was with them, as they did not cower and back down from the evil Americans. Had my parents not fought back with violence, the racists would have driven them from their farm, or even murdered them.
No one is advocating violence. But we will not sit idly by and sing "Kumbaya" while our people are being slaughtered. Indigenous people are being disproportionately murdered by cops more than any other group, but the media has ignored this, just like they have ignored the killing of whites by the police. Being the majority, the cops are killing more whites than any other group. And so, the problem of killer cops is not only a "black" problem. We are living in a Police State, and every American citizen is at risk. The police must be stripped of their powers and disarmed. The American people are paying them to protect and serve. But even in the suburbs, people have more to fear from thugs in uniform than from the thugs in the hood. The Police,and the insurance industry, ( on behalf of the government) are also extorting money from the citizen in the form of traffic fines and other fees associated with the automobile. No one is addressing this issue, and what it amounts to is legalized organized crime. Whether he is killing you or not, "Officer Friendly" is not your friend.
Thats the problem you say the people who want to kill me do not care about peace. Well was those people the ones who gave me life in the first place? No
Did they create the planet God gave me to live on, No . Do they feed me, no .
So the one who gave me permission and caused me to be here is more powerful then any human.
Next true King marched for peace.
But it is written he marched . but did the Heavenly father validate this. Many times people push ahead of God thinking they will solve all the problems and make a name for themselfs .
Not once do I remember him making a name for his creator Jehovah. Psalms 83:18 also Jesus says I have made your name known in the Lords prayer. King did not.
So I follow my Heavenly Father not humans .humans fail.
People only remember his name king thats all.
Next you can not put out fire with fire
It does not work .
It not for humans to fix all our problems in the 21 century it is worse not better.
People just die because of sickness not race.people die because of accidents not race. People die from mental disorders not race. So instead of looking at this one hole in the bucket racism. We need a new bucket replaced.
And it will rather we want it or not.
Please, I am a student of History. I have heard the exact same argument presented by racist Christians during the antebellum. The claim then was that a violent overthrow of slavery was not "God's Will" and that the people should wait for God to intervene. Well guess what? God did intervene. And the next day over half a million lay dead on the ground.
Whether you like it or not. There has never been a peaceful revolution in the history of the world. And your remark about MLK is precious. King was a minister, and a man of God. He often spoke of God in his sermons against racism and inequality. His famous , "I Have A Dream" speech is one good example. Furthermore, I am also a man of God. But I do not fit the European "Stepford" interpretation, and so many of you will not recognize me as such. Like many others, what you cannot understand, and that which has not been verified by your overlords, does not seem real to you. Yes, there is a God, but that God is not as the European, or the Jew have defined it. They are in error, and their arrogance has blinded them to the truth. The God of the American people has his face on a dollar bill, and so the living God takes no pride in an abomination. And I have been elevated by God, not by man.
The comment about "chicken little" is most telling. And there is only one reason why you would make a statement denying that the sky is blue. You claim to support BLM, but that is hard to believe in light of the fact that you accuse me of "whining". I have to laugh because if that is your perception then it doesn't jive that you would support a national organization that is "whining" far louder than I could ever whine. And they've also got thousands of people all across the U.S. marching in the streets and "whining" right along with them. And I can hardly believe that you find the views of BLM to be any less radical than my own. In fact, I am obviously less militant because I didn't take the time and effort to form a group like BLM. And so, this comment, just like the others you have made concerning my post, simply doesn't make any sense, as I have shown.
No one has denied the sky is blue. Are you certain you can read?
Honestly, I'm related to black people and work with quite a few. Not one of them is too far off from my personal opinion on the matter and we all support the movement. I will take the word of people of color whom I am closely acquainted with to the whines of an internet troll any day of the week.
I support the premise that Black Lives Matter. I support the belief that we should all be treated with the same respect under the law. Now, there may be some more that you are attributing to the movement. I don't have to agree with you on every point to be in the camp of those who support BLM. You are not BLM I think, if you could get to that understanding of the matter, it might help.
They are demanding what I support. Not your vitriol. I wouldn't support anything that pits Americans unfairly against other Americans. I won't support anyone who claims to be disadvantaged when there is no evidence of such. As in your comments on this site.
I can only assume that you do not read what you write.
I can understand why it doesn't make any sense to you. I don't see much evidence that you are capable of following the thoughts and comments of others.
You claim to support something and then contradict yourself repeatedly. Black Lives Matter stands for the same thing I have been talking about: freedom from a system of white supremacy. And using hateful language and calling me names is only a slight upon your own character,not mine. I do not resort to such pedestrian tactics, nor do I need to win an argument. In such matters there can be no argument. The truth stands above all and I stand with the truth.
As I have said, we are not looking for equality, for we are not equal to that which we tower above.The racist mind is corrupt, and can bear no fruit except for the fruits of evil, which are violence and death. And so, God has come to trim the orchard..
LOL. I don't see anything on the BLM matter official site to support your claim. But, you have consistently made false claims during our exchange so I see no reason to believe you will suddenly opt for the truth.
That from a racist mind. No one (no one decent, that is) believes themselves to tower above their fellow human beings. It is talk such as that which fuels genocide and injustice. But, since you have made claim to be 'more human than human' I am not surprised that racism is your jargon.
There will be no orchard trimming. To be honest, I think you are probably just an aryan who is attempting to make people of color look bad. To that I can only say job well done.
That's actually funny.We are not wooden Indians, or the little jockeys holding the lantern on rich white peoples lawns. We are an intelligent race of people, and we are claiming what is ours, whether you like it or not. Your disparaging remarks and attempts to discredit me are laughable, because I am not the head of the snake. And so, your vehement attacks are only wasted words. Just like the hacker group Anonymous says in their wonderful videos: "We are Legion, We do not forgive, And we do not forget". I will also add: "We are not going to lose ourselves in a melting pot designed to erase our culture, and to erase our identity." And so, whoever you are standing beside , regardless of race, trust and believe, you will not be standing beside me.
And if it makes you angry that someone would say that they tower above the evil white racist. Then that can only mean one thing. I will let the world fill in the blanks.
Agreed. I will never stand beside racism and prejudice.
Actually, I didn't think you were talking about towering above whites. That isn't what you have consistently said. Those who believe themselves better than their fellow humans are usually very, very far beneath them.
The white racist is not my fellow human being.
Not being a racist I'm not sure how to respond. You label me racist which makes you racist for applying a label for no better reason than you think you know what my skin color is. The funny thing is you apparently don't.
You are my fellow human. I am sorry that you are filled with hatred and I hope that you find some peace.
Live to learn you just touch my heart
With your last statement .
You just showed what we all can do !
Live it .act it out, maintain your worth and good qualities I love your words 'you are my fellow human ' may you find peace.
So blacks & other non-Caucasians can be prejudiced without being racist because they don't have power, thus giving them the power of being prejudiced without being accused of racism, a power that whites don't have.
"as non-Caucasians don't have the power to determine the access &/or quality of education, housing, health care, living conditions, jobs, & other quality of life issues."
Care to expand on that? Is that including people like, I don't know, the President of the United States?
Another racially biased and predictable response. Archie Bunker and Bull Connor would have agreed wholeheartedly with you. And since I am sure you don't know who Bull Connor was, do a web search and educate yourself.
Not as predictable as you continuing to call me racist in lieu of an argument.
I’m not surprised that you think guilt by (presumed) association is a valid argument. If you don’t know what guilt by association is, you ought to follow your own advice, do a web search and educate yourself. Or carry on being <censored because Hubpages doesn’t want me to offend the sensibilities of individuals who are themselves disparaging and insulting to others>.
Why should anyone want to entertain the thought on either side it is just wrong on either side.
This exist but are we allowing society to mold us in its mold of hate .prejudice.
No I will not allow hate to make me weak to hate. Nore give them the power over my mind I own. We can do good with our lives or we can do bad. No one can drive my ship but me. Letting others influence you to hate is being a follower. No do good with your gift of life if in the future life will be judge on all conduct not in.local courts but the Heavenly Supreme Court of law and morals.
People can do as they wish but it is a test to see whats truly in your heart.
Psalms 37:11 'But the meek will possess the earth.'
Matt 5:5 'happy are the mild tempered they will inherit the earth.'
If we are not in control of our hearts and actions we will not be the ones that will be given this earth.
We all on watch and we will all be dealt with.
Racism is human nature. Birds of a feather flock together = Racism.
Well, to answer your questions racism is not equal because it happens more with racist white people because they think that we should still be slaves. I have read every reply on here and I am just like wow at some of them. What did I just step into? LOL.
How do you know everyone is racist? I'm not Racist. Don't speak for me.
I don't want to speak for anyone else but we all have prejudices that are called preferences. I don't like some white people - not because they are white but because of my interaction with them or what I observe about them.
That holds true for people of all colors. I worked with a white music teacher who was obnoxious, narcissistic and racist. Because I had to work with her, I got to know other things about her we were able to have a decent relationship.
I had a Black director, who was a retired captain in the air force, who treated me like a servant. I have more intense feelings about him than the music teacher.
I think the fact that some people are racist and act on it gets lost in people attempting to say that their group is "NOT" racist. It is an individual thing. It should be easy enough to agree that each individual is different.
What causes police to kill or batter non-whites that have not committed a crime.
Milwaukee Police just shot a Black Male in the head
Black teenage woman, mistaken for machete-wielding black man, alleges police brutality
Police at wrong address shoot, kill unarmed man inside home, lawyer says
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/lawyer-pol … -his-home/
different outcome with white lady
Georgia police officer tells woman 'we only kill black people' on camera
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat … 623283001/
Now I'm curious.
What is the documented evidence that Black people are attempting to get reparations? If this is a bone of contention, what is the source. Or is it just fake news.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic. What is the source of the claim that Black people are pursuing/seeking reparations?
Google is your friend, Diane
We demand that the government repair the harms that have been done to Black communities in the form of reparations
reconstruction of the economy to ensure our communities have collective ownership, not merely access
https://bluelivesmatter.blue/black-live … s-demands/
White [people] if you don’t have any descendants, will your property to a Black or Brown family. Preferably one that lives in generational poverty. … White [people] if you can afford to downsize give up the home you own to a Black or Brown family. Preferably a family from generational poverty. … White [people], re-budget your monthly so you can donate to Black funds for land purchasing.
http://www.snopes.com/2017/08/24/did-bl … -up-homes/
I'm certain a more thorough search would find more examples of individuals within the movement showing their true motivation.
These examples make my point.
1. You had to Google to find them. I, a Black person, had never heard of them. i don't associate with people who have these views.
2. The Blue Lives Matter site is not one written by a Black person/group requesting anything. Blue Lives Matter is a group created in response to Black Lives Matter. Instead of working on an the issue to reduce police killing of innocent Black people (and yes, many of them are innocent), they talk about reparations - this sirs up ThEIR base.
3. If you read through the Snopes article, they are debunking and clarifying lies/miscommunications.
There is NOTHING to support the perception that Black people expect reparations. These are individuals/small groups who have no name recognition other than when they state something about reparations. Like Credence says, and is said in the Snopes article, those comments are picked up with people who want to have a reason to hate Black people. Those people/websites are of absolutely no consequence.
Google is your friend, Diane
We demand that the government repair the harms that have been done to Black communities in the form of reparations
Response: I never heard of this. I looked down through the "50" organizations and never heard of them. Anyone can put up a fake website. How does that impact you? I see KKK and other white hatred sites and don't get upset about what "whites want" based on some extremist nuts.
Snopes does fact checks. I never heard of Helms and don't support BLM. I did say that there some people may talk about reparations. Excerpt from the site
"When Helm wrote the list, she had in mind the articulation between the racial hate being expressed in Charlottesville and how it relates to institutional racism, and how that system has influenced wealth and life prospects for African-American communities in the United States. She says she was thinking about an ongoing housing crisis among Louisville residents of color, but also about how the 2008 housing crisis and displacement caused by gentrification have limited access to housing and property ownership. In a phone interview, Helm gave the example of a quote by Nelson Mandela that says:
Like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings."
Diane, a google search would probably bring up your comments, also.
I agree that the only black voices I have heard demanding reparations are on the internet or tv. I have never personally spoken to anyone who has espoused these demands. However, the demands have been publicly made by some. So, it is not unreasonable or untruthful to say that some within the black community are making these demands. It is these people who marginalize the efforts of others who are simply hoping for an open dialogue. Although, I will say, any attempts at an open dialogue usually showcase examples (such as found in this thread) of what I consider to be unreasonable demands. Even in this thread there are examples of some in the black community claiming that they are due monetary outlay.
Here is one quote, from one hubber, within this thread I won’t say that reparations are not warranted more than they simply are not politically palatable. With an attitude such as that, do you honestly see that any conversation will provide the 'healing' many say they are seeking? 'Healing' appears to equate to money. You might call it reparations, where I would see it as a hand out. I'm sorry, but that is the way I see it. I didn't do anything to anyone. My family didn't do anything to anyone. And, honestly, if 'reparations' or 'hand outs' were given, who would pay? You and I, as taxpayers.
My point is everybody is different. People form groups for whatever reason. That's our First Amendment right for freedom of speech.
I am glad that some (not all) white people are bringing up the subject of reparations because it helps to put their comments into context. Bringing that out allows the opportunity to discuss it and probe it.
I can't be responsible for anyone else. I've been on Hubpages for at least 5 years. I've never spoken about being owed anything. I can't be responsible for what anyone else things or feels. Do you think it is legitimate to hold the thought of one person against a whole group? Or even the thoughts of some against all.
Could you imagine me being upset with you because I got discriminated against on a job?
We, including me, should regularly reflect on our own feelings what "why?" and "is it reasonable?"
God wants us to love 1) and 2) eacth other. We can't do that as long as we give ourselves reasons to hate, dislike, or feel agrieved.
May God have mercy on us all.
As a woman who is white I can guarantee you that I believe in a just and equal society. I always have. But you will never hear me back the idea of reparations for past injustices. It will never end, once started. Everyone can cite some part of their past where an injustice occurred. I'm not backing anything other than a society where we are all equal and have the same advantages and rights. To do otherwise would not be advocating equality and advantage for all. Tickling your ear is not my goal. Honesty is.
Now you know that you would just have a hissy fit, if I judged you and all white people by the behavior of those of you on the political extremities (KKK, Nazism, and White Nationalism) right? These groups’ ideology is about the removal and elimination or at a minimum the subjugation of all non white people in America. How much does that marginalize the idea of an open dialogue?
Yes, I made that comment, but you cherry picked and edited the rest of the story, just like they do on Fox News. What else did I say in that paragraph? Yes, I like to win the lottery as well, but I don’t go around professing that the system be changed to accommodate that wish. I think about and wish for a lot of things, but only advocate the doable and practical, and that is all that you need to be concerned about.
I am pissed about all of this, yes!! I also think about the lost talents and capabilities of almost 4 million people, almost 13 percent of the American population in 1860. None of them ever had an opportunity to be an Astor, Vanderbilt, or a J.P. Morgan or Rockefeller. Who knows how much wealth, affluence and opportunity would be available to so many of our people today? Instead they all wasted their lives putting food on someone else table. But, in the practical and real world, I have to move on but I grieve and allow myself the right to do so. A little of that anger and grief exists in most Black people when they understand the true nature of what had happened. And, yet I won’t speak for everybody. Yes, we got the shaft, and no, it was not the fault of anyone living today. But somebody did it, and the fact that the crime was committed and when I think of the ramifications, there will never be a time where it will not be a part of my thoughts. Who knows, maybe this society will move forward in the concepts of true equality enough to the point when my grandnieces and nephews will look back and dismiss this time period and all of its concerns as ancient history, like we laugh at witch hunters, today? Maybe then they would be in a position to finally make peace with history. As Charlottesville indicates, we are definitely not there yet.
I agree that our society would be fundamentally different (and better) and probably more advanced had millions of voices not been relegated to silence over the years. That includes the voices of women as well as minorities which were marginalized. But, I didn't cherry pick. I simply took one of your statements out of the paragraph to share it.
Think of it this way. If I, as a woman, advocated reparations for centuries of subjugation and servitude would that make sense?
I don't think that a woman claiming servitude is anything like a man treating you like an animal, using you for breeding services, making you work in the field and give birth in the field. The comment shows you don't understand the gravity of what was done to Black women. It's not about cooking and cleaning the house. It's treating someone like an animal, breeding, taking away their young, etc.
I hear you and agree about the futility of reparations.
But, you cannot compare the crime of paternalism, toward White women, from White men with the brutality, barbarism, directed toward Blacks (men and women) in particular. If I had to choose which form of abuse I could live with, the making of the choice would not be too hard. White women in the South allowed the issue of their 'so called virtue' to be a rallying cry for murder and lynching of Black men. While they just stood by, twirling their parasols. They were accomplices to these crimes, let us not forget that.
I'm seeing a pattern here Credence. Let me guess; if you had to choose between the gas chambers of Nazi Germany and the cotton fields of South Carolina you'd choose the gas chambers. Because, honestly, they couldn't have been as bad.
There shouldn't have to be a choice. They were both awful. Why should a choice be made?
I didn't say a choice had to be made. I agree, they are both awful as are other 'both' examples offered. Credence continually makes the choice of one or another being worse and, consistently, chooses the one he can identify with.
And, Diane, isn't this what the conversation is about? Being able to understand the pain others feel their ancestors have gone through? If one can't empathize why would one expect empathy?
I see your point in comparing dog manure with horse manure and the futility of such. As a man, perhaps I cannot appreciate the ‘oppression’ experienced by women in our society. But as a Black Woman, Diane is in a position to appreciate and understand and her comment to you regarding comparing slavery with anything Anglo women went through is just that, so much excrement.
Just more examples of people mitigating the magnitude of slavery compared with virtually any other adverse event in American History.
That irritates me to no end listening to Anglo females dismiss the issue in so cavalier a fashion.
Diane can appreciate the issue from both sides and she says, which I consider ‘spot on’:
“I don't think that a woman claiming servitude is anything like a man treating you like an animal, using you for breeding services, making you work in the field and give birth in the field. The comment shows you don't understand the gravity of what was done to Black women. It's not about cooking and cleaning the house. It's treating someone like an animal, breeding, taking away their young, etc.”
Diane and I both know better, and I know that you that you do as well…….
Were you aware that the SPCA was the first organization to fight for the fair treatment of women? Speaks volumes against your argument there.
Anyway, I stand by my comment.
I have a question. At what point does history become firmly in the past and part of our shared history and not part of current events; in your mind? Slavery was abolished in the south, what, 150 years ago? How many generations within a community do you think have the right to lay claim to personal trauma or monetary damage? It's a sincere question.
I have a question. At what point does history become firmly in the past and part of our shared history and not part of current events; in your mind? Slavery was abolished in the south, what, 150 years ago? How many generations within a community do you think have the right to lay claim to personal trauma or monetary damage? It's a sincere question.
I certainly want to provide a sincere answer to your question. That's a good question and you know what, I really don't know. As long as we have people rioting over the significance of so much stone, or flying Rebel flags on pickup trucks or at Trump rallies (is it pride/ heritage or it defiance toward Blacks and the Civil Rights agenda?) When we look at the Klan, Nazis and all the rest, how are we to not think that all of this brings animosities that should have been in the past into the present? Diane and I both passed on to you that neither of us are interested in reparations and are not familiar of any circles within our community that are advocating the same. We don't take them seriously.
While our own group has its own internal problems to sort out as to why we are generally less successful in American society, I would not be telling the truth I told you that Slavery and the Jim Crow that followed it did not play a role, in why we are where we are.
When do we all move forward, it has come from both sides? Will it be in terms of decades, generations, hopefully not centuries? If we move far enough into the future there may no longer remain any points of reference to any of the stuff that absorbs us now. As, I mentioned earlier, it would be similar to how the Salem Witchcraft trials and the era of witches and warlocks are seen today.
This topic is so all encompassing as part of American life, I doubt that I would be around to finally see its peaceful resolution.
I think we can all agree that things are not quite where we want them to be. I know that I can drive through a minority area without being harassed by the cops, where a black man can drive through a predominantly white neighborhood in some areas and not get the same treatment.
But Credence everyone has their own 'cross' to bear. Women, in almost every society, are still struggling to break the gender barriers. It is harder for a woman to get the same recognition, to get the same pay, to get the same promotion opportunities as men. There are more women being discriminated against in America than there are black men or black men and women combined. Women have, for a longer period of time throughout a larger area within the world, been discriminated against. Now, I do think the original call of the BLM movement was more urgent than my desire to see true equality for women. But, when someone consistently insists that the injustices they feel have been imposed on them are of greater value than the injustices imposed on others I tend to lose sympathy.
You talk about the KKK, Nazis and white supremacists. But, as one who is none of those, nor am I black, I can tell you that I hear more black people in the media demanding things from society in the name of their race then I hear any of the other groups. I hear more black people on the media denigrating people simply because of their skin color than I hear any other ethnic group. I heard today that a few tweets from BLM leaders, on upcoming rallies, went out of their way to inform the world that only blacks were welcome. How is this different than the behavior of the groups you are talking about?
Everyone wants to be the victim. I don't have any more sympathy for some white guy whining about lost opportunities because of affirmative action than I do for a black man complaining that he isn't being given the same opportunities as a white man. Walk in the shoes of an intelligent woman for a while. We all have obstacles and there is some equality in that fact. My obstacles may not be yours and yours may not be mine but we all have obstacles. Mine are no less surmountable than yours. But, if you want me to 'feel your pain' trust me; you won't get that courtesy with a selfish and self centered attitude.
The privileged (white, male and middle+ class in the case of America) are more ridiculed (ie newsworthy and gets more attention) for their actions being racist than any other group because most other groups who they tend to be racist towards have an institutionalized disadvantage towards them. And that makes the "racism" (whether that be the intention or not) hurt all the more. If you want this oversimplified it's: "white people are seen as racist because they already have all the advantages so the minute they speak out against any other group it must be because they're trying to take them down."
As a white, middle class member of society I think that a little prejudice towards my actions being racist is the least of the worries I could have.
People can be bread and raised on being racists even teach their pets how to be. If you teach your child who knows no one but you as their guides in life and you have no reason to doubt their reasons then you allow this thought to be your reasons to be prejudice. Only by the time you grow old enough to decide for yourself by experience or anothers , will you change your opinion . it sorta like the old saying the blind leads the blind. There are beautiful arrays of color surrounding our planet. Flowers. Planets , sky and moon. Water have reflections of color even in the rainbow
So human skin also is arrayed with beautiful color. Not to forget our animals have an array. The peacock is one of my favorites , and the white swan is breath taking, the black panther
coat is a thing of beauty .So why do people associate the color of skin with preduice. Igorance of what they do not know and think.
When 911 happened color did not mean nothing it was about saving a life.
Life comes in many colors and one day it could be another skin that may save our own.
Thats the color that matters.
Speak for yourself.
We are NOT all racist. That's often what a racist person says to justify their own racism. It's called a rationalization and has nothing to do with what's called "truth".
There are many more people who enjoy and respect cultural and racial differences.
Sorry, but psychology proves you wrong. I'm not just throwing out an opinion - I encourage you to do the reading for yourself. Many people are fantastic in most situations, but there is a degree of racism in them.
I have a degree with 2 years of Anthropology and studied this topic in detail at the highest level.
The type of person who becomes a racist has been analysed since the 50s.
Ethnocentricism whereby a group thinks it's better than another group as in culture ( or even a team sport etc) only becomes toxic when it putrifies into intolerance and feelings of gross superiority as in bigotry.
Racism is a very ugly extremely unnatural state of being whereby another human being is dehumanised. Usually plainly bigoted people with gutter "ethics" become and stay racist because they simply enjoy feeling superior especially if they can get away with it and beat someone up for "fun".
+1,000,000,000,000-Gordon W. Allport in his book, The Nature of Prejudice, detailed the psychology of the racist.
I'm sorry but your liberal arts associates degree seems to be in contrast to lots of published PhD professionals / racist actions are indeed something learned, but people are inherently subconsciously predisposed to be biased based on race. Disagree all you like, but you can't change human nature
You mean my degree in Fine Arts and Archaeology/Anthropology from Sydney University?
There is absolutely no propensity for people to become racist other than parental example. Try visiting a pre-school and watch all the kids playing together without a thought about "racism".
You're forgetting stuff.
I have heard racist remarks being thrown at every race. In my opinion it really doesn't have anything to do with skin color but power and the determination to stay on top. I think deep down every logical human being understand that the only race is the human race and we all exists in a variety of colors. Dogs come in different colors too and so does every other animal, but a dog is still a dog regardless of his color and a cat is still a cat. Greed, is the root of all evil and every excuse we use, including race as far as skin color, is just something we use as an excuse to live with ourselves.
Claiming that only the construct known as 'white people' can be racist - is a thing a racist would say. It's also the exact sort of pageantry which leads low income 'white people' to the shelter of white supremacy groups.
People fear all kinds of thing, including people who appear different. Racists work their fears up into a paranoid ideology which is immensely destructive.
Next time you feel alarmed when you see someone with a different skin color ask yourself if that fear is justified.
R.J. I agree with your statement. I've worked with non-American black people and I've met them when I was abroad. They just don't project the "aura", I don't know how else to describe it, that many African-Americans do. I will make an exception for the African-Americans that I went to college with and those with whom I work. They are educated and approach white people as equals, and they are treated as equals. I count several of them among my sincere friends. I believe that it is a matter of conditioning, and it is how we and they are conditioned.
Several black people have made statements in my presence that could be considered racist, and they didn't seem to notice that what they said might be offensive to a Caucasian. If the situation were reversed, they would have let me know that they were offended. I kept my white mouth shut and let it go.
There are Black Americans who each time they view Caucasian Americans, they see RACIST which isn't true in many cases. Many Black Americans have an us vs. them when it comes to racial relations. Black Americans who grew up in mostly Caucasian enclaves & interfaced w/Caucasians on an equal basis have little or no prejudices against Caucasians. Solidly middle, upper middle, & upper class Black Americans who interfaced well w/Caucasians from childhood are the least prejudiced towards Caucasians. It is usually Black Americans who grew up in segregated communities & neighborhoods who have the MOST prejudice against Caucasians. Also, it is the Black Americans in the lower, working, & lower middle class who are the most prejudiced because they haven't dealt w/Caucasians on an equal basis but as more subordinate-superior basis. As a solidly middle class Black American, I didn't find Caucasians to be a problem but other Blacks.....well, THAT'S A DIFFERENT STORY.........I can say that I have faced the most prejudice from my fellow Blacks. As a child, I was called Caucasian girl because my aspirations & tastes were different. I listened to classical music, liked the Beatles & other Caucasian artists, spoke proper English, & also made good marks. Many solidly middle, upper middle, & upper class Blacks face derision from their lower socioeconomic class counterparts. I digress.
reading so far about RACISM, as if it were defined the same by everyone and tied to the tints of skins and colorings..huh ?// “Live to Learn” wrote also: There is power in being identified as the victim. I do think many currently alive who have never been in the position of being the victim attempt to gain power by insisting they are entitled to play the victim and receive preferential treatment because others have suffered. This fuels current prejudice, expands it and sets the stage for future prejudice.” …. Dana Tate wrote: ‘doesn't have anything to do with skin color but power and the determination to stay on top… Greed, is the root of all evil and every excuse we use, including race as far as skin color, is just something we us…” and credence2 “acknowledge that circumstances were unfair”
I too write for “we”, the “people”, mostly in this USA: the word “FAIR” and justice are words used, for purposes political, and convenience, but actually are only words, as the results are seldom agreed upon by both or other sides.
There is No-Fair in nature, in the cosmos [as we’ve learned about it from prejudiced humans].
There has never been “Justice” by opposing sides/ people’s/ tribes, et al. Compromise and adjusted settlements are made but one or other repeats the “no justice” and “no fair” forever after anyhow.
Because it is a human wish and attempt, vs. a fact of our lives. I think. Therefore I have not found any “Fair” or “Just” act, person, or incident, taking all contexts and those involved in that too. But we all hear, read, learn that those in most power are acting or ‘trying’ to be fair and do justice it’s due. ha ha
been into any courtroom and found ‘justice’ there ? only if the winner was asked. but the others disagree. Found a judge who is totally incorruptible or just or fair ? They wear the attorney’s elevated black robes of power and are not accountable, most often.
Fair is what they say they do, but the results are “just not” always/often/mostly true.
So we can wish and try and pretend and proclaim all we want to about how it “should be” and that is the mantra forever used as an excuse and desire for what is Wanted.
but the Results that count in any tangible, palpable way are Not as claimed. Knowing this reality helps in diminishing disappoints that reappear anywhere.
Make a complaint or criticism and you are called “unfair” and wrong too.
Make a request, and that too is often labeled as “no fair to others” as an excuse for denial. Make a deal, and both may get ‘some’ and still know ‘that was Not Fair, but..ok, we’ll take what we can anyhow”…
Please prove this understanding wrong….and face what is, vs. what is wanted. Like “hope”….that is a future wanting to be. No Fair ~ and no 'peace' either....
yes, while the ideal may continue to elude us, we all have an obligation within this society that enshrines the concept of the equality of all, under the rule of law, to insist that these high minded ideals are to amount to more than just mere words.
credence2: do you mean "try" ? and 'to insist" means what in actuality? How do you enforce your ideals on others who disagree and want different/ more? what is more than 'mere words' besides tangibles, sensated ?
wishful idealistic thinking is fun and prevents suicides - but doesnt do much fairly nor justly, i have found, not just 'think'. duh..... no fun? true.
Grew up in Oakland California in the 60's and early 70's. Had black friends. During race riots they were as scared as anyone. Some were angry some were not. It depended on their families. I have recently spent a lot of time with a woman of color who taught me much about anger in ethnic communities. I was clueless. I'm not anymore. She learned lots about the white people from me too. We have tons in common. There is so much honest anger, and pure lying floating through our society that needs to stop. - Don't teach a man to fish. Give him a family who will help him to be honest, have respect for himself, and will teach him sometimes when you fish you don't get any fish. Give them the love to press on to the next day with new skills and when the fish might be hungry.
Hillary just romanticized that ....." white Americans need to do a better job of listening ......" how intellectually bland a response to the all out stupidity of TODAY"S racism. What "white "Americans need to do is fight back against the utter stupidity of such a non-cause . Racism is more powerful a presence FROM the black community as is directed against them , even black media pundits are saying that . There isn't one element of true racism in the inner cities that wasn't born of modern day teachings and manifestations of localized liberal leadership ! Truth.
I say "TODAYS " racism because , for all intents and purposes , today , it is a fake accusation ! The majority of near cures of historical racism are simply in the past as well , the accomplishments of the fifties and sixties race dialogs were WAY more positively proven . Affirmative Action accomplished far more in the past than today. I believe the major problem with organizations like BLM is jealousy . WHY? Given the vast sets of minorities in America today ; blacks have categorically failed to positively utilize the benefits of forward looking social accomplishment!
Why are Hispanic , Asian ,middle eastern , European , eastern European or even Canadian immigrants of today far more likely to move upwards than their black counterparts ? Maybe because of personal accountability ? Maybe that simply the color of ones skin ALLOWS for self centered focus on a negative construct in personal accountability . Professional victim-hood ? My point , I can't get away with that , a middle easterner can't get away with that , A Canadian can't get away with that , a Hispanic can't either . How much of todays problem is simply ethnic self exile ?
Just askin '! We can ALL spend more time thinking about this ,if you ask me .
Those who cannot ;
This is where you call me a racist ...........................
I read your thought provoking post this morning, thank you. Here is something that I'm sure you will find interesting, if you haven't read it already on Breitbart, its titled "Common Core roots lie in ties between Barack Obama, Bill Ayers".
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government … ill-ayers/
Of course terrorist Bill Ayer was the founder of the Weatherman and is a communist organizer. Ayer and community (communist) organizer Obama began the "white privilege" hoax in the education system in Chicago. Their focus isn't on education but on indoctrination into radical political ideas, and tribalism...of which began years ago, now we are seeing the manifestations of brainwashed angry, hate-filled Social Justice Warriors and Black Lives Matter. The SJW are told they have to pick sides, and if they are not on the BLM side then they are "white privilege" racists.
I hope I explained that well enough, I'm sure you are aware of it already, but I'm learning.
ADDED: A news video with Inforwars anchorman David Knight explains this situation we have very well.
Seriously? Seriously???? So, in your opinion, are we to assume you don't think Black Lives Matter? And, social justice is a derogatory term to you?
No lives matter more than any others - social justice isn't about equality, it's about reparations - everyone in America has the same rights - when people choose to live in such a way that society fears them then they will be treated accordingly
Social justice is not about reparations. It's about a fair and equitable world and if you think we all have the same rights and are treated equally.....take the blinders off and look again.
agreed ! I am not treated fairly. But then there could be many prejudices and discriminations involved. which one to choose ? #1 or #13 or #564 ? oh, my my skin color is the main determinant ? or my behavior or attitude ? or is it my poverty or wealth or costume ? which ? why ? oh, why me !!???
We have the same rights - please show me rights blacks don't have that whites do.
that is bs, RJ. "What people live in a way that society fears them?" Comeon, is it fear or racism?
In every country where the government was overthrown it began with anti-cop demonstrations. That's true.
Multi-billionaire George Soros brags about overthrowing governments and has an extensive list. He isn't the only one throwing money at the schools (and media) that brainwash and politically indoctrinate young minds to get them so angry that they cause mayhem in the streets when they are triggered by events. Just push their buttons!
I don't think we need to be so grandiose about this. Attention is being directed toward the inequity regarding law enforcement and the criminal Justice system from the BLM. That attention is needed and those that support this cause through their participation or financial support is OK in my book and gets my 'Bravo'. The fact that so many conservative types are intimidated by this movement means it must be a good thing. I say to them 'carry on'.
who said: " ok " ? ok until 5 police get shot dead because the 'movement' shouts loudly that they are not needed, until they have a personal emergency, meanwhile all police are 'obviously' racists and prejudiced...against only 1 small group of people - 13-14% of all in USA ? huh ?
still ok? you get to be ok with whatever you chose but you speak not for any majority, i dink.
One man is responsible for the shootings and used the otherwise peaceful BLM protest as cover. Should I blame all whites for the Dylan Roof racially motivated shootings last year? We will always insist upon our Constitutinal right to peaceably assemble without all the participants being considered terrorists. Of course, I am not surprised that I don't speak for the 'majority that just as soon see this concern of ours swept under the rug, out of site, out of mind.
When you can step back and see it you will know its a total red-herring.
I want to see the government reformed for the better (not overthrown by Globalists), and the police force reformed. I don't like this anti-police state that has been created by design by lunatics.
After a 15 hour shift and likely the worst day of his life, this Dallas Officer had one thing in mind.
I am a believer in 'due process and local government' and thus the police. So, if I have to pick a side, I am on the side of due process, not anarchy and destabilization...because then I can be apart of reform. I want the US to be a better nation that is apart of a better world.
We are suppose to either side with the police or side with BLM. I cannot choose a side in that because its a false paradigm. We have foreign multi-national social engineering programs (on record) that have been used all over the world to overthrow government and to destabilize regions...they are in-effect in scores of nations. Globalists are manipulating our internal affairs to turn us against each other and start a civil war.
Divide and conquer.
So, when I think about which side to choose, its George Soros or our local government. Its the New World Order,... its Goldman Sachs, its JP Morgan, whose financing the anti-police groups, whose funding open borders, whose funding mass migration. Obama actually announced 15 corporations led by Goldman Sachs and JPM that are bringing foreigners in themselves. This country has been hijacked.
George Soros has captained the destabilization in other countries and taken the credit. Obama and Hillary are his pocket- puppets.
You don't have to either support police or BLM. I can support both. We are not at odds. BLM have issues with abusive police procedures, that been far too frequent, not the police in of themselves.
I think everyone has an issue with abusive police procedures.
Did you know that George Soros put $34 million into Ferguson in one month alone to fuel this anti-police movement? And, the Ferguson shooting turned out to be a justified case.
Do you think a cop wants to shot a guy? No, because he knows his life is over. Just had the Baton Rouge and Minneapolis shooting and its the end of the world because they create the perception that police are just mowing black people down. 250 something in 2015 out of 10's of millions of people. Its a total mind game to divert attention from double black unemployment, to divert from being targeted with medical experiments, to divert from mandatory prison sentences that Bill Clinton put in place.
This will cause so much white racism now, and black racism to clash us against one another and that's what they want. There were 990 people shot by police in 2015 and almost all of them were justified. All of them weren't justified. 90% of the deaths in Chicago are black on black, and those murder numbers are just going up, BUT, we don't hear about that because its not the cops. So, people aren't aware that 1000's of black people kill each other every year and its not even an issue, BUT, 250 something get killed by cops and its the biggest issue this country ever saw. This country is on the edge of civil war and being destabilized by George Soros and multi-national foundations.
The thing is this is a synthetic program. I have looked at most of the clips of Black Lives Matter going 'oink, oink, bang, bang, your dead'....'dec the halls with dead cops, fa la la la la' ... this is an organized attempt to kill police and to cause so much fear that Loretta Lynch has to come in to reform the police. - Its like Al Sharpton said, we're using the police to federalize them. That's all this is, its a power-grab.
So, a black man dies in Minneapolis, so cops have to die in Texas because of the color of their white skin. A cop does something wrong in NY so cops get killed in MS...its total bull and its orchestrated. So, more killings of white people are coming which will lead to more institutionalization of black people, which is a part of the plan being carried out by Obama and it is truly sickening.
To movement have had plenty of peaceful protests in many American cities, none has been associated with violence. I never did get answer from you about the white supremacists that shot 5 blacks at such a rally last year, Minneapolis/St. Paul.
All of the problems for the Black community are there and have been there but police abuse of Black citizens will not be one of them. Of course, abuse by police will get more focusas it should, because I don't pay criminals to serve and protect......
Let's not forget about Roof shooting the people in the church. Those are 2 white supremacist cases that occurred last year. Shocking, because its nearly unheard of for white supremacists shooting blacks these days, or maybe its just not getting media attention.
In general, young African-American men are far more likely to commit crimes than young white men, young Asian men or young Latino men. A November 2011 report by the Justice Department showed that young African-American men are just 1 percent of the population, yet are responsible for a disproportionate percentage of murders in the nation.
St. Paul cops had their hands full with BLM protesters on Saturday, they shut down I-94. Several protesters were arrested. Demonstrators were throwing things at police, like bricks, rocks, rebar, fireworks...some officers were injured and their vehicles damaged. It was hardly a peaceful protest even though it may have been intended to be. Those paid crowd agitators know how to change the mood and turn people into a mob.
It is terrible about the man who was shot and killed recently.
Is there a difference? Blacks want people to fear them, blacks want to intimidate others, their actions scare people and when people are scared, they shoot first and ask questions later.
Where do you get that idea, RJ? Sounds like a stereotype to me, completely unjustified and one of the reasons the Black community have problems with too many conservative types. Perhaps, that is why we are afraid to vote for Republican/conservative candidates.
Absolutely not. Be open minded because I'm not taking shots. How many black gangs exist? How many black entertainers are all about the "thug life"? How many black athletes are about the thug life? Seems as if all the role models for young black people are trying to live the life of being a bad-ass, gun toting, thug. Isn't that behavior meant to intimidate other groups, mainly whites? Why are BLM protesters threatening private property, closing roads, etc. if not to intimidate whites into getting their way? The number of black conservatives is minuscule. Most of the black community is making demands for respect that they have not earned. I'm sorry, but intimidation won't get it done. I'm not stereotyping - just calling the facts how most Americans see them - people are scared of blacks and blacks enjoy that power.
Really as I read your comment you are fueling the fire of hatred.
You say most as of color. You say and stereotype people by clothes, you say all the things that would say you have a race problem.
Here's the thing most people in the USA are mixed , we have black, white , asian, indian, and many other races of blood through our veins.
The slave owners built a new society of citizens when they had children by their helping hands. The thing is you kill your own race when you say and stereotype any race we all are mixed.
Also we all are God's children made equal to live here just like any one else .
God gives life we have no right to say God has done wrong with color. It is a beautiful thing
And there is good in all races .
And bad as well .
But the one thing that matters the most is love
When we can not love our neighbors we can not nore will we know our Heavenly Father .
He created us all and is perfect.
How can we say you he is less
No man can add a day to his life
But God can give it and return it.
Say it ain't so, RJ? While reading and responding that last outrage of a post of yours, I could hear a persistent "All in the Family" jingle in the background. Did you not say that you were from Idaho? What is it, some sort of 'last outpost' or something? Funny, I had a business meeting in Boise a few years ago, was I missing something? I guess whatever is going on there is in the back country, the bushes?
Confession is good for the soul, they say. So let's get it all out there. I am going to have to unsheathe my pen on you here, but I don't want no hard feelings.
Why are you basing your bias on visual and print media? It was all about watermelon rinds and fried chicken during the period just prior to my birth. Who would have believed that that represented Black folks? Surely, you are sophisticated enough to be aware that Tee-Vee is, rather than a window on the world, not much more than a fun house mirror? For you to say such ridiculous things would imply that you have never met a black person in the flesh.
You have been duped by the media portrayal of black people, do I really have to tell you that the vast majority of everyday Black people put their pants on just as you do, have to eat, work, etc, to survive?
The 'reality' is not what it seems. So, turn-off the television and interact with people for real. Every man, woman and child are entitled to respect on an individual basis, not just when you decide that it is merited. If this attitude of yours and others is a foundation of the 'Trump Phenomenon' then I promise you, there are not enough of you and you have lost, already. It may bring the circus to town in Idaho, but won't work anywhere else.
I lived and worked in rural Montana for 2 years during the 1980's. While the people there were fundamentally unbiased, they were ignorant. I told them that my very presence among them was explained by my need to eat. We all educated each other on the universal nature of the human condition and circumstance. No, 'it' does not rub off, and, no, I did not know why Michael Jackson wore that silly sequined glove on his right hand, as I was not his valet. While, they all told me that they watched the 'Cosby Show' religiously, oddly enough, I never did. Everybody wanted me over for dinner to the point where I almost stopped buying groceries. But, at least, they were not bigoted, when presented with evidence they were willing to change mistaken ideas. How much of that credit can I give you Trump folks?
Because of people with attitudes such a yours, there are not many black conservatives. For any black or any minority, for that matter, to embrace that sort of thinking would point to their psychosis. When you talk of most Americans, lets qualify that. What you meant to say is 'most Americans like you'.
Your fear and racism, is evident as anyone can smell it. I don't know why you are so afraid, the vast majority of the nation's wealth is in the hands of the white man? Are you all afraid because you may be aware that this is not sustainable? Is this why Trump rings your chimes? You all are spooked so easily at the slightest implication that change is on the way. You needn't worry, in spite of demographic changes making whites the minority later in the century, the dissemination of wealth and power will take longer, probably beyond our life spans.
Who do white sagebrush rebellion people intimidating with armed assaults on federal property? Just an example of the double standard of the arguments you present.
I suggest that you go back and rethink everything, I thought that you were better than this...
The saying if it looks like a duck , sound like a duck , walk like a duck .
Its a duck
The same with people on this subject.
Nothing but negative fuel keeping this fire burning.
I know beutiful people on each side we worship togather, and none is trying to stereotype the other. We love each other
and will die for each other .So nothing you say sounds right no matter what you say
Even your comment is insulting to people who care about you.
Why destroy that ?
Absolutely true , everything you said is true . This administration is absolutely the worse instigator of hatred in America ! Isn't it ironic that the first black President is the worst advocate for a mature dialog on racism in America and at this time in America ! I'm glad that it isn't against the law [yet ] to call out racism ! Especially when it comes from the white house itself.
Racism has run into creating riots, mostly by the 13-14% USA nationally Black, aka African-Americans tho most have never been to Africa nor their parents either. While of mixed colors on skin and riding an urban Metro train, I observed a non-fat ordinary looking man sitting across from me, with legs spread, taking up more than his ticketed fare. I thought to be clever and funny, so said “you are funny…did you know you are taking up 3 seats ?”
[while our many homeless are careful to pack their property up tight into 2 seats mostly].
Instantly he blew up !! yelling loudly at me, accusing me of saying this “only because I am black [repeated 4x] …you are OLD…blah blah…slavery [explained as if i had no idea it occurred ] ….victimhood [he was victim to my words and he was a slave...]…”
He continued shouting while I attempted to explain my statement w/o saying negative things about him, carefully. Then 2 White men attempted to protect/defend him by entering into dispute asking me ‘why did you say that to him” taking up his accusation of my ‘racism’ ! I kept them each at bay by telling them not to interfere and he could take care of him [worse than that, actually ] and only when they realized they could not intimidate this elder women with wrinkles, they moved back into their spaces.
This was made-up Racism in defense of excessive use of Metro seat space / how dumb is that ? The outburst was intended to ‘tell –me- off !” and intimidate me & punish me.
but since I am not afraid of Black men, having ‘lived in the community’ long time and know many with whom we have honest clear relationships, he could not succeed.
But I was startled ! Racism hit me in a personal way when there was no connection I thought between his entitled-to-more-space-than-any-others and his skin color. Or was there ?
I learned to become less friendly and less trusting of people of that color now. The result of just 1 man’s blasting against me for having talked to a stranger, without malicious intent but with informative actual observation openly stated.
But that is Not allowed ! apparently. Where do we learn about racism ? on Metro ?
So, you ran into one eccentric nut, the exception is not the rule.
credence2 : is busy defending everything blacks do, even the unhelpful to unity and enticing riots when protests are intended by their families. So 'exceptions' can be dismissed, but not when they are bloodied or dead ? only criteria when exceptions are given elevated status ? huh?
and how easy to dismiss anyone else's experiences, while pretending irrelevance to anyone else's lives but their own ? huh ? who is this claiming to know-the-realities and know-the-truth over all the rest of 'us' ? huh ? get off the know-it-all-superior-stance trip, please.
What about every thing whites do? Who is enticing riots, are you a rightwinger? I only hear such things from them. I don't make general assumptions about groups based solely on one experience. Is this what you are advocating for here? I am standing level, it is you that wants to descend beneath the muck with your arguments.
credence2: a non-color-viewed person who likes to sling mud, apparently, saying "it is you that wants to descend beneath the muck with your arguments."
thanks. just the kind of sly mentality that denies others' personal experiences but then claims to know all about ....only one side of any story ? that's the same "muck" that comes around to those who sling it.
done. you can have the whole floor - while acting like those who have to insult and demean to try to win their views as maybe valid. some of us dont 'decend' and not into 'muck' just because you would like to see us there.
how did you think I would react with your "superior" comment. If you can dish it out, I haveto assume that you are able to take it.
The coversation is pointless, if you choose only to listen to your own echo.
You're incoherent, what are you talking about? One side of what story?
I am a humanitarian, that means that I am concerned about the welfare of people in general. I have compassion for the BLM and SJW, and for people who like to 'assume' something other.
We are all God's children, and He loves everyone.
A picture of people lining up in Baltimore to shield the officers from protesters! WHY DOESN'T THE MEDIA SHOW THIS?
They Get My Respect!
RJ racist hatred does not cut it either.
This is what wars are made of .and people create it by the words you use inferior , superior.
You have mentally put yourself in one of these categories. Through out history what was Hitlers final days like .
Superior became nothing he committed suicide.
That mentality does not work history proves it. Why repeat some ones failure.
There is no future in hating our neighbors.
But their is never and end to loving your neighbor.
Only the peaceful people will inherit this earth as written .anything else is doomed.
All life matters not just blacks all people matter .Yes its disturbing that people kill people. But did this just start happening. No ! It been happening all the time.
I seen where this mother just took and at gun point killed her own freshly grown daughters. Horrible. Now you want to know the race ! White.
This happen before these you posted.
The point is dont get stuck on race and color . care for the human race we all are being attacked by satan and using each against one another.
Why because he is a failure that is going to be replaced by Jesus Adminstration or rulership.
Things happen but not what we actually see . its what we can not see with our eyes.
No, that is where you are wrong. The life of an evil racist "does not matter" at all. When a man has a cancer, he does not lament the passing of the cancer. He does not cry for the tumor when the surgeon cuts it out and removes it from his body. The cancer of racism in America has grown and multiplied over the last 500 years. And it has manifested itself throughout the world. You cannot beat the devil by laying down with the devil. We cannot appease a cancerous growth, we can only cut it out.
The life of any individual is not ours to give or take.
All surgeon's are not licenced to do surgery they may be just students or book students.
But I am sure no one wants a Dr to opperate on his heart and he is a licenced
So if the evil man stands its God's responsibility to take care of the matter
We created no human nore can we return a life.
Its not our department.
Doing God work by judging and pushing ahead of him is saying he is not capable of his doing his work.
Its already written the wicked will be taken from the earth and he is the judge because he is perfect. We all are imperfect mentally and physically.
But what I like about you is your love that good persons should not be harmed by evil wicked people. I agree.
This post reminds me of a thread someone else started. He was extolling the virtue of the British Empire. Maintaining the peace, he said. Relegating entire populations to the status of second class citizens I thought.
But, if there are those such as yourself who maintain so much hatred toward other races that you cannot listen to reason and you call for the extermination of those races then, I have to wonder. Is subjugating a group of people who are so hellbent on violence a bad thing? If they cannot function in a peaceful manner within a civilized society, do their desires warrant an ear? Violence is not something any civilized society would like to see within its ranks.
What makes some crave violence? What makes some search for reasons to hate?
To "Dad's " everywhere ,
Hard to believe I know but There are some things that cannot be blamed on the white race in America , for instance , almost seventy percent of black inner city kids live in a home without a father --------70 % percent ------- That number directly relates to the amount of black teens charged with crimes , that number also correlates with the amount of young unwed parents , that number also is directly related to the fact that FULLY one third of abortions in America are the abortions of black un-born children .
Are we not supposed to use facts , statistics when reasoning ? It didn't take me long to either Google that up OR to reason out the problem with crime and ethnicities and their solutions .
White , Black , Hispanic , Native or Asian , want to keep your boys out of jail and alive ? Want to keep your daughters happy and leading positive lives ? Take a hard look at your troubled wife and find a reason to make the marriage work , GROW UP , and stay in your children's house .
What's really ironic onhorseback, is the fact that none of these "Sons of the Pioneers", including you, have made a peep about all the white people who are being killed by cops. In fact, being the majority, there are more whites killed by cops than any other race. Why aren't all of you good god-fearing, gun toting, Duck Dynasty watchin', Fox News lovin' white folk beating the drum about that issue? Of course I know the answer, but I would really like to hear yours. I hope you don't try to suggest that all of the innocent , unarmed whites, (men and women) who have been murdered by Cops over the last several years were all thugs who deserved it. White Cops are Killing White Citizens! But the white majority simply ignores it.I am reminded here of the Tin Man, The Scarecrow, and the Cowardly Lion.
Lets take this then as an answer then , YOU just answered the entire question of this debate . Does this mean we are all racists or all -not racists ? Of course white people are shot by cops , they always have been . When I was a minor there was a nighttime curfew in our city Pop. , 5000 !
At 9;00 PM the town fire / emergency alarm went off , this could be heard for miles . But being 16 or younger you had better be either at your own home , visiting at a friends for the night , or out with your parents Or one of the three police cruisers would probably find you walking on the sidewalk , hanging out with your buddies or wherever you were . If they found you out after curfew you would receive a ride either to the station and or to your home !
If you are reminded of the Wizard of OZ , perhaps its because you are seeing higher reflections these days ,be careful , you may be maturing , But then , that's the difference between those who constantly blame others for all the ills of a society and those who go out seeking their own shortcomings , finding their own answers to all the problems that ultimately and always begin at home .
It is not about race. Your country or you are only as strong as your weakest link. Work more on your weaknesses and have a better outcome and balance.
And you know this how , By Dropping out of the US ?
I know your elistist don't care for the middle class or poor anymore and much worst is to come.
I work for the people, not mainly for the eliteist anymore. That was the big change and healthier purpose.
So I'm an elitist ? You know , It's funny how I earn less than most people in America - $ 20,000 , a year , yet I tend towards the conservative . I knew something was really wrong with me.
There is no greater "RACISM " in this world------ than those who blame virtually every fault of their culture , their own ethnicity , their own family issues , their own marriage issues , their own lack of motivation ,on another color of skin . Many in America should be IN a race alright ..... a race to clean up their own house perhaps ?
ahorse, I agree with you on the need for more fathers in the home in the inner city. I saw the results for 20 years in the classroom. It breaks my heart. I feel that is a problem that requires more "touch" from Black people. We left in pursuit of jobs. Urban Renewal went through and took the heart out of the community. We should all be mentoring as many kids as possible. I got in trouble at school for telling girls they should keep their feet on the ground. School is for education not sex relations.
Has anyone done a study of the percentage of Black people that live in the inner city. Since "racism" is the topic, it that justification for someone to be racists.
I told Wilderness that I bet he could name 3+ Black people with jobs, most not living in the inner city, that he knows from work, television, conducting business anywhere. The total Black population does not live in the inner city. Everyone in the inner city does not match the description you laid out.
As to Hub Page censorships , that's simply a" flag ' by those offended by too hurtful a truth ! You have to understand the elitist mind of liberally extremist educated people worldwide , If they cannot win by outshouting , out-screaming , out insulting everyone around them , Flag Em !
Hey ..........It's Far Better than trying to mature !
Is someone with a mixed race background racist in some ways? Racism or any prejudice means you judge someone based on an attribute, instead of the true nature of the person. Not everyone falls into this way of thinking in some ways.
Ok, boys and girls, the topic was lynching and I can state that there were simply more in the southern states, regardless of the race of the victim.
The unfortunates of the south during the period identified with lynching issues were not even accused of a crime, just looking "the wrong way"
http://www.chesnuttarchive.org/classroo … state.html
The numbers should make it clear which group bore the brunt of the lynching phenomena....
Hi Cred, I admit I did not follow your link, but I did not have to because I agree with your point. I do believe there were more black folks lynched in the South - just because they were black folks.
But, as the point was originated; what does that have to do with today's problems?
Because of what I perceive as a familiarity of your perspective, and a high opinion of your intelligence, I would much prefer to see you arguing for a progressive view of Blacks in America's future, than trying to justify today's social demands using the measure of history's mistakes.
We, (white folks), were bad then, and we are not perfect today. Accept it. Get past it. Let's talk about the future. The KKK, White Supremacists, and the Neo-Nazis are not the future - and I think you know that. We are not all racists.
Without a doubt, GA, everyone posting on this thread are intelligent people, there is just a difference in perspective that I hope to make clear here.
First of all, I did not start this, but I am probably gonna finish it. My initial response to fellow hubber L to L was a conciliatory offering on my part in this intense discussion. That is on page 1 of this thread and it was over a year ago. In that, I made a one statement about lynching in the South, which was true.
MizB thought that I was attacking the South generally, based on this statement. Thus, her comment directed at me a day or two ago.
First of all, slavery in the American culture is without peer America’s biggest crime against its residents, with the imposition on First Nations people, a close second.
“Diane, I have a history minor, and my sources would be any U.S. history book with a chapter on the wild wild west, post Civil War. 1870-1890 or so. That would be white on white atrocities or white/Native American atrocities, but I guess that doesn't count in modern-day thinking. That was the context of my question. It seems that American descendants of warring Northern Europeans inherited their ancestors' genes, but Southern whites bear the brunt of the blame. Also these same history books write of certain African tribes selling into slavery members of the weaker tribes. Maybe modern-day history books have written this part out. I studied history in the late 1950s and early 1960s so that was a long time ago.”
Is this your idea of a ‘dose of reality’? The statement is full of inaccuracies. It smacks of bias and misunderstanding. No one said that Slavery was unique to the United States, but the vaunted claim of equality of man and the rule of law is. I don’t know about the relevance of gene pools and all of that. But, when it comes to the issue of lynching, it is crazy to compare its occurrence in other states outside the South as anything other than an aberration or anomaly, when it is obvious that only in the South has it been used as form of terror and intimidation for a large part of its population. I would not want to compare the Nazi era holocaust to a bully that steals my lunch money. We cannot ignore sheer magnitude and perspective here, can we? None of this has anything to do with modern text books as opposed to older ones. The truth is the truth.
So many people are suggesting that we do away with past and look ahead, solely. That does not work. We can’t talk about forgiveness and healing without folks at least honestly acknowledging what did in fact occur. This is to avoid sugar coating, apologists, etc.
As for fellow hubber Ken, he says that there is a rough parity between indentured servitude and slavery. He is giving the impression that indentured servitude was worse than slavery. The fact is that there were far fewer indentured servants than slaves and regardless, they were working off a debt and have never really been seriously seen as property.
Fellow hubber, Diane, as a professional educator, mentions the politically motivated revision of standard textbooks. So, the Civil War did not have slavery as its primary cause? The term ‘worker’ is to replace the word ‘slave’ to describe the Blacks held in bondage during the antebellum period. I have heard a great deal about this myself and I am not pleased. More avoidance, apologists, instead of acknowledging the crime, just makes it disappear. Or, perhaps say, it really was not so bad, the implication one would expect when the term ‘worker’ is used.
I also recently conferred with another hubber who suggested that discrimination in American life is separate from the concept of racism. Just look at a drinking fountain photo and you can see ‘separate but equal’ in reality. This stuff is fresh from Plessy vs. Fergerson, and has since been overruled.
It is hard to let bygones be bygones, when so many attitudes are in a state of denial. My grandfather was not punched in the nose, but instead ran into a fist or two? My forgiveness hinges on acceptance of the truth as a prerequisite.
Among other things, I am a Star Trek fanatic. In several episodes they refer to racism and race prejudice as primitive thinking. Well, when the time comes when we can have that universal attitude in the way we look upon the witchcraft trials and the concepts of warlocks and spells of the 17th century today, then I no longer need to have to look over my shoulder anymore.
As for the state of Black people today and how we move forward, the idea is to truthfully acknowledge that the unacceptable has happened and to continue to pursue justice in a way that is taking us away from the past, not back toward it. What do I have with Trump, Jeff Sessions, Steve Bannion, etc? The bones can never stay buried as Trump and Charlottesville reminds us all that exhumation is still possible.
In the 23rd Century……………………………..
Hi Cred, in reference to that "dose of reality," it was my perception, (right or wrong), that the the lynching point was relative to the South and its African American population.
Mizbejabbers point about the wide-spread use of lynching throughout the West gave context to the discussion. As for the inaccuracies you mention, I am not informed enough to recognize them. But... I did find this blurb from a book about them;
"Accounts of lynching in the United States have primarily focused on violence against African Americans in the South. Ken Gonzales-Day reveals racially motivated lynching as a more widespread practice. His research uncovered 350 instances of lynching that occurred in the state of California between 1850 and 1935. The majority were perpetrated against Latinos, Native Americans, and Asian Americans; more Latinos were lynched in California than were persons of any other race or ethnicity."
Source: Lynchings in the West
This does seem like an indication that lynchings outside of the South were more than "an aberration or anomaly," and I wonder if the addition of instances from our other Mid-west pre-state, pre-law and order territories would bolster the point.
To return to your point of my misunderstanding your comment, you are right, I should have referred back to your year-old contribution - rather than misjudge your comment by the context of these more recent responses.
I am not one that says the past should be forgotten in deference to looking to the future, but I do maintain that we should let the past be the past, and step forward into the future without it as a ball and chain that must be dragged with us. I am also not one that thinks discrimination equals racism, even in the face of the true racism in your examples. I think I could provide equally chilling examples of discrimination that had nothing to do with racism, but I don't see that as benefiting either of us, I can understand that from your personal perspective the two are the same.
I think the First Nations people would have a valid argument against the claim that what happened against them was a close second. And, I would have to agree with them. Driven from your lands as opposed to being sold out of them is (in my mind) worse. Systematic genocide, as opposed to systematic enforced servitude, is worse. Future generations being snuffed out by the simple fact of killing entire villages and nations, is worse than systematically enslaving a people.
I don't know that anyone would argue that point. I think we all agree on it. Nor do I think anyone would disagree that more blacks were lynched in America than any other ethnic group. I think what most people are attempting to point out is that the rule of law was ignored and extrajudicial justice was enacted on others so lynching was not unique to crimes against only the black community. Was it wrong? Of course it was. But, it was wrong across the board.
I'd love to hear your examples of where others are attempting to do away with the past. Maybe, examples of insisting that holidays be renamed, like was just done in California? Statues are toppled? To me those are prime examples of attempting to begin the process of erasing the past. Examples of attempts to begin the process of erasing them from the collective memory.
And it is hard to continue to have sympathy for a group who consider it hard to let bygones be bygones when nothing was done to these individuals. Your grandfather was punched in the nose? Goodness. What does society owe the second generation past that one? And, honestly. Who owes the grandson an apology for an angry punch to the grandfather?
The nation, as a whole, has truthfully acknowledged that the unacceptable happened. But, I get the impression that what constitutes justice is not universally agreed upon. Every list I've read, thus far, penned by anyone within Black Lives Matter shows me that no one is truly seeking any form of justice and, I believe that any attempts to appease this mentality of self pity and denial would only give rise to more self pity and more demands.
The most recent list I read was asking for white people to will their property to poor blacks. Asking white people to build free housing so poor blacks could live there rent free. For white people to give up their homes to poor blacks. Would justice, in your opinion, be obtained? Or would that (as I believe) simply continue to perpetuate poverty and a desire for more hand outs and 'reparations'?
This is a very subjective observation, but I stand by my position. The Indians Wars were just that, Wars. At least the men had an opportunity to fight and defend themselves. They were, as the losing party, consigned to the reservation and rough scrabble lands. At least as a man, before being overrun, I would have had an opportunity of relieving a few of my enemies of their scalps. American slavery, reduced people to animals, with whites breeding blacks like cattle. What was worse than being a prisoner and even worse than death, having to grin before master’s face while he rapes your wife and sells your children? With the First Nations, at least families were kept intact and they were prisoners, not animals. The First Nations folks lived on subsistence, but as any for prisoner of war, the pickings were slim. They did not have to work themselves to death merely to provide bounty for master and his family as an added insult. They did not have to consider that their progeny was condemned in the exact same way for the foreseeable future, when wars eventually end and even the vanquished are at least given a chance to live as human beings. The psychological factors slaves had to bear with playing the ‘slavery’ game were so much worse than any experienced by a free man or even a prisoner. Compare Auschwitz with the county ‘lockup’? In the finally analysis, Natives were still people even when vanquished, that is a considerable improvement over being treated as animals and property, don’t you think?
I never said that Blacks were the only ones subject to the crime of lynching, but if you look at the studies, you will see that most lynchings occurred when associated with a crime. Many for a crime that today would not merit capital punishment, (horse thief). But, only in the South and in regards to blacks was lynching used as a universal form of terror and intimidation that had nothing to do with committing ‘a crime’. If a Black man was in economic competition with whites, or looked a white woman or who simply was not sufficiently deferential, that was grounds for a lynching. Where did that happen in the ‘old west’, or how often? And we can’t forget about the mutilations of the bodies, people burned and flayed alive, with their genitalia mutilated. Can you imagine that anyone can hate that much? So, I think that these facts ratchet the crime of lynching up a notch or two.
Maybe we all get tired of folks telling Blacks to move on and forget that American slavery had happened. You have your flags, monuments and commemorations. You have a statue to Stonewall Jackson in the town square, is it not a constant reminder of the Civil War conflict with reverence to the side that lost and all that it believed in? Maybe, when you get rid of all these painful reminders, then you can have room to talk? Don’t expect me to forget and move on, if you can’t. When you go to Germany, and I have been there, you don’t see monuments to Erwin Rommel or Hermann Goering. The trappings of Nazism and the Third Reich have been expunged from society so that all of its victims and their progeny are able to move forward in German life without having to consider them. That is a fine example of true remorse. How about America following that example, if you are really serious about letting bygones by bygones?
I know that slavery occurred well into the past and as I have said earlier, it has no effect as to my current paths. The issue is not about anybody owing anybody, it is about the truth. You miss the point about the grandfather, it is not about a debt it is about admitting that, yes, and you did hit him. I am pissed about people who will rewrite the history to claim that slavery was not so bad. You want to romanticize it with ‘Gone With The Wind’, aka, ‘the happy darky’. Then we have “Birth of a Nation” whose theme was the justification of slavery. But, let’s bring it into current times, changing textbooks to provide apologists with excuses for slavery and thus mitigating its significance as the cause of the Civil War and downplaying the catastrophic effect to Black people which continued at least a century after its abolition. No, L to L, I am not going to forget that. I can forgive that this had happen, but have the respect for me and mine to not lie about its true nature.
I don’t think the nation has come to grips with what has happened but is in a state of denial. Justice is admitting that it DID happen. I have seen the 10 points that are the foundation of BLM and no one is talking about reparations for slavery, but it is about justice in regard to police conduct in the black community and trying to bring attention to the disparities between whites and minorities in the criminal justice system. Those 10 demands are a reasonable start for me. No one can change what happened 150 years ago, but I will be damned if I allow certain people to continue to tell me that I exaggerate the true barbarity of the “peculiar institution” in American history. Nobody is asking Whites to give them anything except the TRUTH, don’t lie to me. There is your bias showing, always speaking of Blacks in terms of ‘hand outs and reparations, when you look in closely in the mirror, you can see all the ugly things that I have been assaulting conservatives about for so long. This is certainly a prime reason why healing between us will continue to be difficult. Why should I believe, with attitudes like this, that most of you are of good will?
Credence, no one wants to forget that slavery happened. Nor does anyone want to forget what happened to the First Nations people.. Although if we actually had a discussion on the First Nation people I think that history shows they were not the first. They just happened to be those who inhabited the areas last prior to the European invasion. I do find it interesting that you accept that what happened to the First Nations people was war. It was not different from events played out through history. One people over running real estate previously inhabited by others. But, I don't think you understand all of their history. If you did you would understand that they were viewed as animals, at times; less than human at others. The atrocities committed against them were, by today's standards, crimes against humanity. Just as the atrocities committed against blacks were.
It was a different time. A different place. No one is who they were back then. Putting something into the past does not equate to forgetting it happened. No one should forget. We should understand how and why it happened. But, it happened to other people. Not you or me. I will never quite understand how slavery can be perceived to effect you any more than I could understand if I felt tragically touched by finding out I had an ancestor who had been gutted publicly, in front of a cheering crowd, somewhere inside the bowels of England. Because I choose to understand that it is history, not current events. No one wants to be an ignorant Affleck and pretend that 'their people' could not have been a part of it. But, it appears that sentiment is not held by some within the black community. They appear to want to pretend that they were a part of it. Your ancestors suffered public humiliation and degradation. They suffered persecution and pain. They were your ancestors.
I will say that I do wonder about your point about the First Nations fighting to maintain their freedom all the way until they were beaten and put on reservations. Do you ever wonder why some fight and some don't? This isn't a critique of slaves it is a question that appears to span throughout history. It is a question I ask every time I see a nation or a group being subjugated and denied basic freedoms. Do you think you and I would live a life in captivity without huddling together over whatever warmth we had during a cold winter to plot our freedom? Once free, whether by our choice or by others waging war in our defense; what would we do if we found ourselves then relegated to the state of second class citizens? Would we stay, or work our way to places where that was not the norm? If we had stayed, once laws were put into place which demanded equal treatment under the laws what would we teach our children?
I think of the people in our community who chose to put their children in the schools for whites prior to the end of segregation. I look at those kids who are now older adults. They, nor their parents, ever had a belief that anyone owed them anything other than equality and a chance. They, compared with those who are demanding that they be given something because somewhere in the past someone was treated poorly, are happy and self sufficient. Those who constantly demand they were wronged, deserve some hand out as proof of it, do not appear to be on the path of equality and acceptance. They appear to be mired in something self destructive which they refuse to stare in the face and, instead, want to throw it into someone else's lap to resolve for them.
First of all, I want to say how I appreciate your conciliatory response and that you, personally, are not the focus of my ire. This message is for everyone. The example is that of that standup comic, perhaps you remember who used to always smash a melon on stage? Well, I smash the melon and you happen to be in the first row. So, may I offer you a plastic protector?
No, I couldn’t understand all aspects of the imposition on First Nations folks. But as part of any war, the enemy is painted as less than human, “the eternal Hun”, the wily Japanese, or the clownish Italians. There had been a Geneva Convention that most of the combatants adhered to, that is better than what was afforded to the slave as designated property or an animal. What rights relative to anything did he have? And as I said earlier, this is a very subjective topic, who would want to be either a Black slave or a vanquished Native warrior? But, from I understand about each circumstance, I would take my chances with the latter.
Are we really different? Were it not for years of bloodshed and tireless litigation, would you be as repentant today? Let me make a point, how we got here and why we are here is not as simple as drawing a line saying this happened then and that what is now has no relation to that. Let’s use the Natives as an example. Of course, neither you nor any of your Anglo friends had anything to do with the forced relocation, stolen land and burned villages. But, what of those Anglos who did create an advantage for themselves, acquiring stolen property that they used to carve 50 states and accumulate wealth and opportunity for themselves and THEIR PROGENY. How many of you today are really willing to give the land back to atone for its theft? We all know that there is no practical solution to apply here no more than that for the Aboriginal people of the Australian continent, or African American slavery. But, it is so easy from where White folks sit to tell the Native American, ‘get over it, that was the past’.
As for Black folks, who as slaves provided centuries of unrequited toil so that someone else can benefit, because neither they nor their family nor descendents were given the right to enjoy the fruit of their labors. Lincoln promised 40 acres and a mule to the new freedmen. And, I really believed that had he lived, as the honorable a man as he was, he would have followed through, thus giving the people a foundation from which to build their own wealth and future for themselves and succeeding generations. But, with Lincoln’s successor, it wasn’t to be as he would rather reward traitorous secessionists and former slavers. Blacks really did not become first class citizens in the country until well after the middle of the last century. So, looking at that, how long have WE been free to pursue the idea of going as far as our talents would take us?(40-50 years). How truly short a time for people to say, ‘we are all even now’? In recognition of that structural disadvantage, even Richard Nixon introduced and supported Affirmative Action during the 1970’s, so how much whining did I have to listen to from Whites in regards to this program?
I would have been proud to have been a part of that fight to the death as I least I was given an opportunity to strike a blow against the enemy. Good question about the slaves. The network within the South that supported slavery was as daunting physically as well as psychologically. You were discouraged from trying to escape with the fear of death or dismemberment always in view. You had your family, which may be all you had in the world, for as a long as you could stay together. It was hard enough for you to just escape by yourself. The master just might sacrifice your ability to do useful work as a slave to put fear in the others to think twice before trying to escape. You were outnumbered with freedom being almost impossible to reach on foot without being detected and captured. There were a few savage slave revolts, but they only worked when all the variables fell in the right place for the plotters. As seen in WW II concentration camp footage, people will go through extreme lengths just to have another day to live in the hope that they would survive to see a change in circumstance. If I tried to run, I would have resolved to myself, that I would not be captured alive.
We are not African and even with those who meant well suggesting a return to Africa by newly freed Blacks, that was no longer possible. Being centuries removed and racially intermingled, we are not African, but American. So we were right to stay and fight for the rights that first class citizenship afforded us, regardless of the price.
We are still in the struggle when I constantly hear conservatives refer to hand outs in reference to Black people. With so many whites on welfare and receiving services, that complaint has no moral weight and rings hollow. It is just another form of Black bashing. We are constantly reminded much from the rhetoric of our current President, to the underpinnings of events like Charlottesville that it is going to take time to heal these wounds and that only time combined with people determined to not reopen them will constitute the ultimate solution.
Just a point. I'll read the post through more thoroughly later, but I am not repentant. I don't know what I would have to be repentant about. What have I done which would cause you to think I needed to be? When I say our nation that isn't me any more than when you comment on slavery you are referring to you.
It's the past Credence.
Credence, I think dehumanizing the slaves was similar to dehumanizing the 'enemy' of the First Nations. It is easier to justify many things if one thinks the person on the other side isn't really a person. And, yes I think my attitude would be unchanged primarily because my parents shielded us from the troubles of that time. We did not know color. Did not perceive difference. As I've said I didn't even know anything of it unti
l I was in high school. Was it there? Yes. Looking back I see it was. But, our parent's went out of their way to prepare us for the way the world was supposed to be, not the way it was and I appreciate that effort they made.
I think it is interesting that you appear to know that reparations is not doable, in regards to the First Nations. I will point out that I don't consider it to be warranted. But, that is another conversation. I do think it is telling that you don't see it for one group but appear to be demanding it for another. Again, I think a First Nation proponent would disagree with you and I would tend to believe they had a valid argument.
Also, what many within the black community fail to realize is that the majority of any whites during the time of slavery were not owners. It is guestimated that 5% to 25% of southern families owned slaves. There was more to the United States than the South. So this belief that all people who share a skin color (many of whom are descended from people who immigrated after that time) are somehow responsible for the actions of 5% of the people who lived in one region of the country is ridiculous. Lincoln gave a head nod to an idea of 40 acres. I believe Sherman made some statement that the army would loan some mules. The fact that it didn't happen does not hold as much sway as the fact that treaties were made and broken. So, if you don't think broken treaties are of any importance why do you think this is?
Either way, I think my main problem with complaints from blacks about wanting to be somehow repaid for things that happened in the past does boil down to statements such as yours which admit that their is no practical solution to one past atrocity but insist there is a practical solution to another. Why? Because you would financially gain from the one, and not the other. It tends to minimize the value of your argument.
I had this one image come to mind, the one where the master of the plantation had the little black child at the bottom of his feet as a foot warmer. Rather than be forced to look at the master every day, I will take my chances in the rough with the Natives. The problem with your example, L to L, is that the exception is not the rule. If everybody was raised the way that you say that you were, we would not need to have this conversation.
I won’t say that reparations are not warranted more than they simply are not politically palatable in this day and age for events that occurred so long ago. For the freedmen, they would certainly have been warranted for former Black slaves just after the Civil War ended. I never said that reparations were the appropriate remedy for any group in this here and now, and too much time has passed to even warrant it now. But at one time, reparations were both warranted and should have provided to both groups. I cannot speak for a Native American man in my shoes, and I could understand if his opinion was different.
My information puts that percentage of Southern Families across the south who owned slaves at an average of 32 percent, as low as 20 percent in Arkansas and as much as 49 percent in Mississippi.
http://www.history.com/news/history-lis … ut-slavery
But an entire region of the country had a vested interest in maintaining slavery even if they were not of the planter class. Such, to the point that they were willing to fight for the right to continue the practice. Well, I knew the reason even before I officially checked; the simple fact is that racism trumps economics. Every white had an interest in seeing that the Blacks as slaves ‘stayed in their place’. You did not have to own slaves to respect that.
Some of the explanation for this is here:
https://deadconfederates.com/2011/05/04 … stitution/
I still say that Lincoln would have followed through on that promise of 40 acres and a mule. But, as in your example of the thousands of treaties the white man broke with the Natives, the vengeful unreconstructed southern white man would have found away to relieve the freedmen of that advantage, as well.
Let, me repeat, there is no practical solution to either atrocity. I just wish people would acknowledge it for the atrocities that they were, and the serious nature as to how the lives of generations of people have been affected because in that sense, it is not over. I am just fine, it is just when I go to a family reunion or read about debacles like Charlottesville that I am reminded of how whole groups of people were ripped off. And because of the passage of time, nobody can be held to blame. But none of that changes the fact that slavery occurred and the Natives were routed on their own soil, and that both figure in to our current circumstances that we find ourselves in here, that I will say.
Many slave owners went bankrupt after the slaves were freed. S. H. Wilds, enslaver of my great grandparents, went bankrupt. There is quite a bit of documentation that supports this.
Of that, I have no doubt. But, it serves them right for treating human beings like property. If they wanted any sympathy, this is the wrong source.
I try to say "white people" and "Black people" because it humanizes those you are speaking of. When you say "when black people do ....." it sounds like all Black people are saying, in unison, whatever it is that you dislike.
Until we had this discussion, I can't remember that last time I heard ANYONE, regardless of color, speak of reparations. Hearing someone or a group of individuals speak of something that upsets you should not be held against an ethnic group in totality. I don't look at the KKK, neo-Nazis or any group saying, "We want our country back" or "You can't take our place.", and become angry with white people.
People have the right to say what they want to say, even when it gets on our nerves. Throughout my professional care, I had to develop that discipline. As a Christian, I must learn to be controlled by the Holy Spirit.
Nothing a person or group of people says should make you upset about the whole group. How many Black people, or what percentage of them, do you actually hear talking about this. It is definitely not a topic of conversation for anyone I know or deal with long enough to have a conversation. It should not be used as an excuse to dislike an ethnic group.
Funny, Diane, I have not heard anything about 'reparations' in my circles either. But I will tell you where it does comes from. Rightwing information sources, such as the deplorably rabid 'rightwing radio', where people like Rush Limbaugh get on the air to tell folks what Black people want. It works up the rightwing base, but as for it being true, that is another matter. But since when has 'the truth' been of any interest to this gang?
I was wondering if I was ignoring a discussion. Thank you for confirming! There is no legislation on this. I don't hear anyone campaigning on it. I use to tell my students how silly it was to prepare to fight someone because you heard they didn't like you. I stopped quite a few fights by having students consider how ridiculous and futile it is to fight about something. Nothing changes. People even dig in on their positions.
My dad was a proud man. When he was off work for 3 months after having a serious surgery, my sister told him maybe we could get commoditites. He said he didn't want anything that someone would want to take back later saying he didn't deserve it. My dad worked for everything we had.
Anywhoooo, everyone be on notice, "I am NOT asking for reparations!!!"
Who, in this conversation, dislikes an ethnic group Diane? I read through my post you were responding to. I made a comment about those in the black community. Not the black community as a whole. My friends , family and associates do not feel the way Credence, or you, are espousing. Or, if they do, they have not shared it. If I were speaking of their views I would also refer to them as some in the black community since they do not represent its entirety, either.
"The most recent list I read was asking for white people to will their property to poor blacks. Asking white people to build free housing so poor blacks could live there rent free. For white people to give up their homes to poor blacks. Would justice, in your opinion, be obtained? Or would that (as I believe) simply continue to perpetuate poverty and a desire for more hand outs and 'reparations'?"
I haven't heard of this particular list It seems to be from a person/group expressing their own opinions. It should not be an excuse to say Black people want to live at the expense of white people.
Investment/inheritance is the real issue. Slaves suffered, worked, and died for white people to be enriched. When they were freed, they walked away with nothing. There was supposed to be "40 acres and a mule."
Impact to day is that white people have "old" money to pass down to their kids. When I started working at Hughes Aircraft, in my 20's, white parents were making the downpayment on their children's houses, paying for their education, and helping them to start businesses.
It is impossible to do reparations now. When they should have been done, they weren't. That is the major reason for the disparity.
Thanks for adding the additional point, your voice to the chorus.
As to the 40 acres and a mule. Sherman did not have the authority to give land and a mule. It was an empty promise on his part. And, the Freedmen's Bureau was to help former black slaves and poor whites in the South in the aftermath of the Civil War. Pretty sure I had some poor white relatives in the South. Where's my mule and 40 acres? I'm not looking for it. Why?
Freedman's Bureau was not based on them being poor, as I understand it. It was an infrastructure outside of the established system to allow them to do banking and financial accountability. Poor whites didn't need it becau'se they could use what was already in place.
While I don't believe that white people should be repentant, I feel compassion would be appreciated. The problem comes from generalization or perceived generalization and inclusiveness. There is no way for me to empathize with Native Americans because I have not personally experience what they experience. I can't even imagine myself going through what a slave went through. I did see the impact on my mother and others who were afraid of white people.
I got my first job because, Ida W. Moose, a white woman, had compassion with my plight. When I first met her, I was ready to take a shorthand test. She said, "That's ok. I already heard about what happened to you." That changed the whole course of my life. I got a job for which I was well qualified. She didn't "give" me money. She gave me confidence and a sense of self respect. I was in the 12th grade. She told me I write at the college level.
I worked for Ida Moose through college. She allowed me to hire my friends for temporary work. I wrote several articles on Hubpages about Ida Moose. She passed away June 20, 2014. I haven't been able to write about her passing. I will always love and remember her.
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