If schools in America are so bad...

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   TMinutposted 14 years ago

   why do we insist our kids graduate? Just for the diploma? Employers still want to see a diploma and then hopefully college, true? Are the schools really so bad? I know I had no trouble in high school getting A's, my son's work seems a lot more intense.

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      awareposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      schools need reforming . there not kid friendly

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         Cagsilposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         There not learning powered. Nevermind anything else. When was the last time books were updated? When is there enough resources for the schools? When are teachers going to provide valuable knowledge to their students, instead of deciding on what to teach them?
         
         Reform? Isn't a strong enough word for U.S. schools!

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            tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            That depends on the school.

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         rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         well, that's a blanket statement which just isn't true. schools get such a bad rap, but there are very good schools in america and there are some that aren't so good. a lot of the problems come from society in general.
         
         a college degree is going to help in some professions, but not all. even with a degree, some still have no clue how to work.

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      Marisa Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I can't speak for the whole of the States, but the daughter of a friend of mine spent a term in the mid-west last year. 
      
      My friend was shocked - her daughter learned nothing, because her American classmates were so far behind her in everything.  She was pleased her daughter had the experience of another culture, but she did feel like she'd lost a term's worth of schooling.

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      prettydarkhorseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      hi, usually those who have a diploma get a more high paying job and the only thing we can leave to our chidlren is the legacy of education, nowadays children are not hardworking enough becuase life seems easier we can all get what we want because of technology, cellphone, viedo games etc

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      rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I have hired a few people in my time and find it a definite milestone that a person with no experience has at least completed High School.  When it comes to trade experience I have a tendency to look more at their qualifications and marital status to determine if this is a person who will stick with you.
      
      Mind you that some of the High School Graduates couldn't do simple math especially fractions and the spatial reasoning skills were not usually developed much.  A good attitude helped a lot too.

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      Rod Marsdenposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      The education system in the USA and also Australia doesn't work for everyone. It is just a fact of life.
      
      
      

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      Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I learned sooo much in school, but a lot lot more in college. It wasn't just the classes that taught me. It was outside of the class and the amazing teachers/professors. Most of what you learn in school is outside the classroom. Whether it be extracurricular activities, field trips, research, magnet programs, leadership opportunities, jobs, etc. It is there that the basics and social skills are elaborated on.

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      wsp2469posted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I tend to proofread anything that I write when it comes to schools and my own education.
      having said that, I would say that we insist our kids graduate because you cannot get a job without at least a G.E.D.  Not all kids are right for college; trust me.  I used to teach full-time.
      Yes, some of our schools or rather some of our kids IN our schools are truly idiots regardless of how much we dumb things down and partially because we sometimes promote socially.

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      Lisa HWposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Schools, for the most part, are nowhere near what they ought to be, but they're still better than nothing.  It isn't necessarily about just getting the piece of paper of a diploma or getting A's. it's about what they graduate knowing. Nobody wants their kid to end up on "Jay Walking".   

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   h.a.borcichposted 14 years ago

   I have always believed you get more from a child when you expect more. Everyone wins a trophy now, the expectations have been lowered and less is expected. Just my opinion, Holly

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      bearclawmediaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I agree Holly, when my son is sad that his team did not win the football match, I don't tell him some BS about its not weather you win or loose its all about trying. Nonsense. I tell him if winning is important to him he has to train harder and encourage his team mates to do the same.I hate a crawl over the other guy attitude but what is worse is not trying at all.

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      Williamjordanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I have to agree expections are lower and teacher seem so dissatisfied with their profession we need teacher pay them more.

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         tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         We need to pay the good ones more, we need to pay the bad ones nothing, but the teacher's unions exist to prevent quality teaching.

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   tantrumposted 14 years ago

   Holly bump !!

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   Mishaposted 14 years ago

   I don't insist. In fact I would be happy if my kids don't attend.

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      TMinutposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Misha, what would you prefer for your kids? Homeschooling? Unschooling? School somewhere else?

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   blue dogposted 14 years ago

   actually, the expectations are dictated by our government in the form of state mandated testing.  for a bit of insight, read my incentive plan hub. in many instances, it is not the teachers or the students who are to blame.  if expectations have been lowered, it's because teachers aren't allowed to teach and students aren't allowed to learn.

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      h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        My child has been out of the school system for quite some time so I am out of touch with the current specifics. For whatever reasons, it appears the expectations have been lowered
      
      Bump to you Tantrum

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         tantrumposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Holy !

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      habeeposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I'm responding as a retired teacher. Bluedog is correct - teachers have less and less authority every year. The curriculum has been watered down so that everyone can be successful and feel good about himself. In many school systems, it's almost impossible to fail a child - even when he seldom attends class or actually does any work. It's NEVER the student's fault. Blame the teacher, the parents, the school board, the principal, or the community - but not the child. Don't get me wrong - I loved teaching. I just hated all the state-mandated bull crap that went with it.

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         rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I don't think that's true for all schools. so much depends on the administration and the school population, where the kids are coming from. both of my sons went to excellent schools in the suburbs and the high school was rated as one of the best in the country. people moved into the school district from other states to attend the school. I was very active as a parent and stayed involved, the teachers were amazing and expected a lot from the students. 
         it's sad that it varies so much, but the truth is that it does.

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         Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         You are lucky that you are retired. It is very frustrating that you tried every way you know to teach the subject and the students did not care to learn. Today, there are many students, who will not do anything and tell you that you cannot fail him because "It will not look good that many of your students fail the class. People will think it must be something wrong with your teaching."

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            alexandriaruthkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I agree with this one, they also evaluate teachers based on the performance of students. I think the students now get lazier as they rely too much on computer to learn new things, just copy and paste thing..

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               sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Tell that to my college student, who is a chemistry major with a 3.5 and who just got home after finals and has slept for 16hrs straight. He had 18hrs and three of which are labs as well as working on a nano-tech research project for the Navy and is a TI for chemistry. The parents have to get involved and you have to apply some expectations on their performance.
               
               My sister-in-law teaches elementary school she sends the kids home with papers and it's not unusual for her to see their packs full of those papers the parents haven't even looked at. It's the parents job to raise their own kids and the teacher is there to teach. School is not a daycare service.

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                  Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  To some of the kids, teachers are their parents. Sometime, I wonder why those people even have children.

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      tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      But everyone is allowed to make excuses.

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   Delsieposted 14 years ago

   It all depends on where you are. The socio-economic status in the community has a lot to do with it. The problem is there is no equity, too many factors involved.America needs to look into what is working and what is not working. It is a very complex issue

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      h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this

        I am sure it is complex, I also believe it should be a priority if we truly value our kids. Holly

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   awareposted 14 years ago

   cag im talking more acceptance schools are so  clickish  and devicive  social skills need to be addressed

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   awareposted 14 years ago

   there needs to be a concerted effort to bring students together on a common ground this aint the movie grease

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      h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Yes, 3rd grade doesn't need cheerleader try outs and football teams. 5th graders are not ready for dances. The focus is off of education and on socialisation much before they are ready. Spelling bees are better Holly

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         talewinsposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, 3rd grade doesn't need cheerleader try outs and football teams. 5th graders are not ready for dances. The focus is off of education and on socialisation much before they are ready. Spelling bees are better
         
         3rd grade?  I have one grand daughter in first grade and another one in kindergarten; both of them are cheerleaders in full uniform.
         
         But I definitely can't complain about that school.  Last year the first grader was learning geometry and algebra.

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   awareposted 14 years ago

   sesame street is whats needed

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    awareposted 14 years ago

    we teach everything but tolerance compassion and acceptance

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       They spend too much time 'teaching' that kind of stuff in schools.

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    awareposted 14 years ago

    know what we teach in schools? we teach last one to post

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    Vicki99posted 14 years ago

    I myself was home-schooled for several years. When I went back to school I had to be tested to see if I was up to grade;I tested several grades ahead. In my homeschool classes I was an average student, back in public school I was on the President's Honor Roll.
    
    Even as a kid I could see that public school was severly lacking in educators who care more about actually EDUCATING the students. Don't get me wrong, there are those who try, but they are severly outnumbered.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    Is anyone here an employer who interviews and hires? Does a diploma make or break the deal for you? What do you think of someone who chose not to stay in high school? Would you assume they has been kicked out for causing trouble or were too lazy?

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       sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       If I had the choice I'd take the diploma.

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       h.a.borcichposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       When I did interviewing and hiring I considered a diploma to indicate a desire to follow the rules and goals orientation. I really had a hard time with folks putting a current probation officer down as a reference for a job at the YMCA with kids. Back to the diploma, I do believe it matters for employment. If only it was proof of a strong education.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    QUOTE: I really had a hard time with folks putting a current probation officer down as a reference for a job at the YMCA with kids.
    
    Oh, please say you're joking!

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    sneakorocksolidposted 14 years ago

    The biggest factor is how much support their getting at home. If the the parents are involved the kids do way better. We have a different problem at our high school the compitition is so tough some parents will move to stay away. They don't even offer regular classes and a 4.0 is an A, 5.0 is a better A and 6.0 is an A for college level classes. Our son had better than a 5.0 and was only in the top 35% of his class. If the kids don't get help from home it can be devastating.

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       rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       very very true. and it starts young. when parents are involved, the children perform better. some parents think as their kids get older, they don't have to stay involved, but you do, not like a hover parent who's always meddling in school affairs, but being supportive and showing up at school events, helping but not doing the homework. some parents even do the kids work to get good grades!!! hello, how stupid is that??

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          sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Exactly!

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    B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 14 years ago

    they are not all bad, I signed a paper for my kid to have an opportunity of a lifetime, she will go to college at a local college half a year her junior year then graduate a year early..and she will only be 16..she has already gotten offers from 4 different colleges, and she doesnt play sports, she is an academic, who is an artist and a musician

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    You know, I would really like to find out what specifically, kids from other countries know that American kids don't. We worry here about kids being stressed from so much homework AND about them not learning anything. They don't go together. Kids overloaded with homework end up with no family time, no thinking and experiencing time; they have to work way longer hours than adults.
    
    The reason I wonder about this is that only my stepson graduated from high school, though my second youngest didn't really "not graduate", he just quit after 11th grade and went straight to college. The older two took the GED and went into jobs they're very happy with and they're doing quite well - they study what they're interested in at home. I DID graduate but I know nothing and have no skills. If it's more about the person and the circumstances, do I really need to force my youngest to do well in classes and subjects he detests and has no interest in at all? Due to time constraints, he can't do the experimenting and researching of things he's likely to choose as a career. If it was just that he doesn't like it, oh, well, but these are things that are making him 'give up in life' over.

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Nothing, they (some) just work harder. It's funny to hear parents whining about 'too much homework' and standardized tests when you consider what kids are put through in some other places - places US schools are often compared to unfavorably.

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       sneakorocksolidposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, you have to help him understand the world is a tough place and if you're not prepared it will be devastating. Go get him help it's time for some tough love. Not to be overly controling but because you love him. You won't be there for ever and he has to able to fend for himself. It's tough but you can do it! Now get the show on the road!

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       Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       They could have gone to vocational schools.

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    megs78posted 14 years ago

    TMinut,
    
    One thing American schools are lacking is knowledge of the rest of the world. Even just a basic knowledge of their closest neighbours.  It always floors me to hear that Americans have no idea that we have Provinces instead of States.  That we have a Prime Minister, not a President.  That we live in igloos (come on) that Saskatchewan is in the Middle East.  I know not everyone has this lack of knowledge, but it seems to be rampant. In our schools we were taught a lot about the rest of the world, especially the United States.  The politics, the geography, the history. I know you probably could care less about Canada, and thats ok with me, but I'm just trying to point out an obvious thing that is maybe lacking in schools.

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       It's not that they aren't taught these things, it's just that the few who manage to stay awake during those lessons forget them very quickly.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    megs, specifically about Canada, I remember my son wanting to study Canada's history since it's so close. All they ever did in school was Africa! Over and over! He figured Canada is our next door neighbor, why don't we ever hear about it?

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       megs78posted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Strange isn't it?  we heard a lot about the united states, we were schooled very well about the way it worked, etc.  we also were taught a lot about the Holocaust, and the wars and very important periods in history.  I can't say that my school was a really prestigious school, it wasn't (think northwest ontario), but the teachers were good and I believe they taught us well eventhough they were incredibly underfunded and understaffed.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    tksensei, I don't mind the tests so much but the homework does annoy me. These are MY kids, getting notes home that tell me how I have to spend my evening with them and knowing my son will be graded on whether or not I do a particular activity with him on the school's timetable is infuriating.
    The tests are fine but I don't truly believe in them anymore. My son always gets 99% on math and related skills which I think is right. But he also gets high 90's (percents, national standardized tests) in areas that I know darn well he's not proficient in! Though he can ace anything he ever does, he needs about three times longer to complete than anyone else. He says school is teaching him to ignore quality work and just rush through to turn something in. NOT what I want him to learn.

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       He will be required to work within time constraints out in the wider world, though.

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       rhamsonposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       School systems are a victim of the NEA and the curriculums they are forced to teach.  As with any union there are those that merely take up space and punch the clock.  Then there are teachers that truly take the time to open up thinking and analysis of the subjects.  These types of teachers have students that strive to learn despite horrible curiculums. 
       
       The best thing you can do for your child is to make sure they can do math and read as much as is their ability.  If they do not keep up with the rest of their classmates then maybe they will grow more of an appreciation when they get out.  A good deal of college students are older and more focused on their studies as maturity has taught them well and steered them where they want to go. 
       
       Reading is the most important thing they can learn as it is the main tool that will help them teach them self.

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       Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       That is not fair to the child if his grade is depended on your participation. What happens if you cannot do it with him that day? I hate that condition.

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    AdviceDoctorposted 14 years ago

    I don't think we have that bad school system. My kids go to the same high school and I love it. It's pretty small, only around 2000 students and you get updates of your teen every week, what he's falling behind in and what he's doing great it. The school contacts you immediately if something goes wrong and there's little as none outcasting there.
    
    Love it.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    Yes! It's true that some kids refuse to work and that some kids can not do the work. But no one is allowed to say that apparently. Ridiculous. In my own high school experience, I wondered why some of these kids were in school ruining it for the rest of us - they got nothing out of it, they ruined for other students and they made the teacher's job a daily hell.
    
    My son likes his current school for the fact that the majority of the kids do NOT behave like that. He said they're all nerds, even in jokes they use 'nerd words'. I asked him if he feels like he fits in there and he said yes.
    
    Things are improving because the English teacher is leaving, we're not told if it's her decision or not, but most seem to be glad about it. My son hates seeing teachers mistreated but he told me he would love to run outside to see her off on her last day and thank her for finally going away. She's been rude, condescending, and dismissive of the students and apparently tells them she has to much to do to answer their questions. This is what started the whole 'dropping a class' idea. I was seriously concerned because this is so different from my son's normal attitude about a teacher!

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       alexandriaruthkposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       not all teachers are good, some are worst too

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    Unfortunately, many people don't know they will dislike raising children until AFTER they've had them.

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       Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Then at least be responsible. There is no excuse. Parenting is a person job, if they created a child.
       
       I knew an eleventh grade girl who was not only responsible for her own child (she made a mistake!) but also had to care for her alcoholic/drug addicted mother. She did well in school, but she missed too many days of school. She finally dropped out. It was sad to see something like that.

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    bojanglesk8posted 14 years ago

    kids these days need to stop wasting their lives with shit like facebook, video games, drugs, etc.

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       Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You cannot say it often enough, but they never listen.
       
       Researchers said that kids are more socialize than ever. I do not think so. They are so into online stuff, Facebook, my space,... and do not be with kids of their own age in the neighborhood!

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          prettydarkhorseposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I agree they lack socialization and really time to go out and play some sports too, with the onset of video games, and internt stuff we become a society dependent on technology

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    What I don't get is the people that don't like kids and have even more! If you discover you can't handle it, get a grip TOO BAD. And certainly don't try again to be sure...
    
    Does anyone know if vocational schools are ever decent schools? I've seen Job Corps and other programs but the reputation (and firsthand accounts) show they're for troublemakers. Not every kid that prefers a vocational education is a delinquent!
    My son's geometry teacher wouldn't let me call my son 'slow'. He said, "He's NOT slow. He's methodical. He analyzes everything and there are places that are desperate for people like that." Yeah, well where? And he has to make it through school first which is not looking for kids like that. Still, he IS in this early college school which offers classes he does like, digital electronics for example. I wish he could just be an apprentice Mythbuster.

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       rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       digital electronics career field~
       
       http://degreedirectory.org/articles/Wha … onics.html

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    WildIrisposted 14 years ago

    "If schools in America are so bad...."  Not all schools in America are bad, yet America does have an alarmingly high dropout rate. Couple this with global competition, and many American students find themselves at a disadvantage. They find themselves under-prepared to meet the demands of work be it verbally, intellectually or analytically. A disconnect is made in learning sometime in the middle school years that amplifies in high school. Most children begin school with an enthusiasm for learning, but it fades by middle school.  As a culture, Americans do not value education. Yet sub-cultures within American that do value education continue to produce children intent on learning regardless of the school or circumstance.

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       That is not true.

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          WildIrisposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Geez, I' sorry I didn't support my generalization. 
          
          If we valued education as a culture we would pay our teachers more.  If we valued education as a culture we would give it a more positive spin in our television shows and movies. If we valued education we would not be importing brain power into our country through visas for workers in the Silicon Valley.  If we valued education we would make a college education affordable; however, it is far more lucrative for universities to chase foreign dollars than to build human capital at home. As a culture I think we would like to value education as a Jeffersonian ideal of an educated populous, but as a country we fall painfully short of this goal. Graduating with a high school diploma does not mean much when that high school student is functionally literate, but incapable of comprehending and carrying out complex tasks involving math, reading or science.

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             tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Depending on the area, many teachers are paid pretty well. And, just throwing more money at something does not necessarily make it better.
             
             If we really wanted highly paid teachers we'd get rid of public education, and that ain't happening any time soon.
             
             
             
             ???
             
             
             
             That shows we do value the products of education.
             
             
             
             A qualified student can finance a college education.

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       rebekahELLEposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       "as a culture, Americans do not value education."  where does a statement like that come from?

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          Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          From what I have learned on my exposure to Hubages frankly, lol, rebekah, I tend to believe what the poster is trying to express is the populist ideal of anti-elitism - whatever it means.  To the base, it equates to anti-higher education and the denigration of those who have it.  The whole Sarah Palin Phenom is pretty much a testimony to this.
          
          And much of what the OP says I think is true.  Our system is now more about warehousing students in unhealthy environments where violence breeds at the worst....and disinterest in learning breeds at the best.
          
          That is not to say that public schools are poor across the board.  I think school systems are very different in different parts of the country.  IE, we don't have teacher's unions in Northern Arizona...we do have many bad private charter schools, though  And the education here IS bad compared to Midwestern schools (Iowa, Nebraska), I can attest.

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             tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             That is absolutely not true. Once again, elitism and 'elite' are not the same. America has a long and admirable history of distaste for snobbery, presumptuousness, and an exaggerated sense of superiority and entitlement. This is (obviously) NOT an opposition to education or achievement, but to a certain kind of arrogance that doesn't sit well with regular folks. There is nothing inherent in any level of educational (or any other) achievement that presupposes elitism. In fact, it has been my experience that those most likely to indulge in this kind of silly self-satisfaction are those who have achieved just enough to be pleased with themselves but nothing all that spectacular. These are the people who can't see the difference between elite and elitism because the ego won't let them.
             
             Not in reference to anyone here, just in general and in my opinion.

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                A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Well said! And that damn Sarah Palin hasn't accomplished as much as those who right pamphlets on true crime, did I say pamphlet?

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                   Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4p4N9CTUu8
                   
                   For good measure.

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                      A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

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                         A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Thanks for the Bill Maher clip, his guests are so unbiased and thought provoking.
                         
                         I noticed I wrote "right" instead of "wright" in my original post, my apologies to anyone who was confused.

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                Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                Your attitude, tk, is pretty ridiculously thinly veiled.  And keys in constantly to your obsession with me and you own insecurities.  Why for instance, do you constantly need to follow and remind me I am some sort of braggart about education/qualifications?  Have you examined that?  I don't even address you.  If I am talking to, ie, Pam Grundy, it is because I have an affinity towards her as a writer.  Also to say she is very good - better I think than even she knows...and it is an encouragement type thing between writers.
                
                If I talk about my boyfriend, Matt, who is a very real person, it is because he is close to me (downstairs now, eating pizza I bought) and important to me.  No other nefarious reason.  MY GOD.  If I talk about art and writing, it is because that is what I studied...and continue to study and continue to love...in life.
                
                I do not lie, either. For most of my entire life, actually, I've had to downplay any qualifications...as I actually do here on Hubpages, believe it or not.  I am not looking for any body (and especially not you--as you most clearly disgust me for more reasons than the fact you harass me...it is in fact the harassment of others who are not always able to defend themselves as well that gets me most) to gain 'self-satisfaction' over.  Frankly, I think that is you....and your smug, short, nasty diatribes and the people you pick to hate on--those who mainly disagree with your short sighted, quote, quote 'conservative' views.  I am not interested in stating that I am "spectacular," either, and only do so apparently within your sick mind which needs a constant target.  If you want to believe I am below average, then you do so.
                
                In truth, I have no sense of 'entitlement' or 'arrogance.'  I'm lower middle class by birth, and everything I have achieved, I have achieved on my own....usually clawing my way. And I wouldn't have had it any other way. Do you honestly think your pathetic displays make any difference in my life?  At the end of the day, I remain what I am.  You remain what you are - a nasty troll that picks on women, liberals, and anybody who disagrees with you or has the misfortune to basically come across you on the internet - all day long.

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                   tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I think I was pretty clear - and completely serious - when I said this:  "Not in reference to anyone here, just in general and in my opinion."

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                      Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Then put your money where your bs is and leave me the f-- alone.  I'm sick of your sh--, and since moderation is doing nothing about it, I am being clear and direct as I can be.
                      
                      And feel free to report this.  I'll enjoy that.

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                         tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         You'll note please that I was commenting on this thread before you did.

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                         tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Why would you enjoy that? And why can't you join me in trying to get past the anger and insults and such? Seriously, I'm trying to move on from that and would appreciate it if you did too.

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                            Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            I will give you the benefit of the doubt and speak 'seriously.'  You do not even know me.  You have no idea what you are talking about--especially in regard to the attack posts where clearly you are attacking me personally for 'arrogance and bragging.'  That is NOT trying to get past insults.  That occurred just a few hours ago-my response is to that.
                            
                            I should not have to quit posting here or stop doing something I enjoy because of your constant bs.  You should, because of your behavior.

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                   tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   I don't think you should.

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                   tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Come on, it is possible to discuss without the insults and personal accusations. It really is. Please.

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             WildIrisposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             ~~"as a culture, Americans do not value education."  where does a statement like that come from? 
             
             
             A statement like this comes from experience.
             
             
             ~~From what I have learned on my exposure to Hubages frankly, lol, rebekah, I tend to believe what the poster is trying to express is the populist ideal of anti-elitism - whatever it means.  To the base, it equates to anti-higher education and the denigration of those who have it.  The whole Sarah Palin Phenom is pretty much a testimony to this.
             
             Wow, I do think you missed the mark here.  I guess I have to work on clearly stating a point here if others are to understand what I am saying.  Sarah Palin...anit-elitism....?

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                Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                I don't think I missed the mark, no.
                
                I definitely see a connection especially in regards to your last statements here, but I don't feel like writing a thesis today.  As you have noted, these issues are complicated and are not given their full due in short forum posts.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    Why can't bad teachers be fired? I keep hearing that's the case due to unions but how can that be true? A teacher with tons of complaints from students and parents should NOT be allowed to continue. And the ones with glowing commendations should be given bonuses. My son has one teacher for a class he doesn't like but he would never want out of the class because of the teacher - my son says this teacher explains things very clearly and still answers questions without getting angry or annoyed.

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       That's what unions do.

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    rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago

    I see what you're saying Lita, and what the OP is saying. it just alarms me to see blanket statements made about education as a whole or the American culture as a whole. I think Americans definitely value education. A high school degree or GED is necessary not only for the prospects of finding employment, but for the individual.  Those that go on to gain higher education will not only profit their own life as an individual, but be able to contribute more to society in a productive way.

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       Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Completely agreed....at least I would like to believe so, though recently, I have my doubts.  I still believe in our more liberal system as being better in most cases as compared to the way they do it in Europe--where your parents/teachers decide what role you will play in society and select your education and future before you have even had a chance (ie, I know this from an ex bf whose mother decided he was to be a surgeon, and a woman in Germany whose route was also chosen.).
       
       You are a teacher, aren't you?

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       Dao Hoaposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I agree that to a make a generalization statement is not right. There are many people here value their education in this country.

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       You are correct.

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    wsp2469posted 14 years ago

    Wow
    everybody is just making friends in the forum again I see.
    That's how my score went from 89 to what it is now.
    I educated someone and they reported some of my hubs to admin, admin had to respond, they bulk-flagged hubs and the rest is history since --again--your hubscore is influenced by all sorts of bullshit and has little to do with whether or not one can actually write.
    Since I have nothing to lose can you two maybe just agree to disagree and maybe avoid personal attacks?
    This place is truly not woerth getting all upset about, okay?

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       tksenseiposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       That's what I've been trying to establish.

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       Leta Sposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       It's bigger than that, wsp.  Has been going on for months.  He harasses more than just me, basically gaming the system.  He is the HP troll. Many have reported him - the moderators refuse to ban him.  They instead ban others, in some pretty low critical thinking skill moments (see, and that statement is why I'm sure I'm popular with hp moderating staff--but I didn't always believe what I'm saying now.  But they earned it.).

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          wsp2469posted 14 years agoin reply to this

          I just wish there would be less bullshit here.  I know he has strong opinions as I have seen some.  Still, it would be nice if we all could get along or at least not make others feel the way you feel now.

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    In response to teacher unions: Not all teachers are members of a union. Few here are. In fact, most of the teachers I taught with are not even members of NEA. Instead, they're members of PAGE - a GA organization for teachers that is NOT a union and does not condone strikes.
    
    As for the quality of teachers, believe me, no one hates bad teachers as much as good teachers do. The problem is that it seems like "the powers that be" are trying to force all teachers to use the exact same strategies and lesson plans. This is a big mistake. I'm very creative and was a very "hands on" instructor. If you've ever read any of my hubs about teaching, you know that I always tried to make learning fun. Sometimes I used rather unconventional methods to motivate and engage students. I was lucky enough to have a principal for several years who fully supported and encouraged my efforts. Unfortunately, many principals are not like that. They prefer the traditional lecture/notes/quiz format. Boring!

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    These have been great responses! Seems all I usually hear is that American is awful, schools are horrible places for kids - I had to wonder why we want that diploma if it's so meaningless. True, I had to search for a school I thought was fit to put my son in but over the years we've had good school experiences. Much better than mine where all unarmed students risked their lives daily  and teachers spent the lunch break getting stoned and/or drunk (some with the students).
    
    About school in Germany, it's true (or was) that children are taught according to what is chosen for their life career at a young age. Guidance in those important choices is one thing, but being locked-in at twelve?

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    B.C. BOUTIQUEposted 14 years ago

    This post upsets me..my child was a art and musical genius in elementary, has never had a graade below a regular A..and that was years ago, has always been placed in accelerated classes when she can learn and not be held behind because some other children may not catch on like she does..and is graduating and starting college at 16.....
    
    
    So why is the public school system she has always attended bad,,it is not, they have great teachers, great subject matter,,yes, it is a small, rural district..I went there and we had 35 in the graduating class of 1995..and her father also was a 1990 graduate from there, he was a traoublemaker, yet he had good grades...
    
    I do not know what to say, its 2 :25 am and this frustrates me...
    
    I find it very hard to believe that other countries schools are better than the schools of the United States, unleess you are paying for a special school....
    
    
    Whatever

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    habeeposted 14 years ago

    Are you guys familiar with what GA does with its lottery revenue? We have the HOPE Scholarship. High school students who achieve a 3.5 average can attend any state college or university in the state, tuition free. And I think any student can attend a vocational school for free.
    
    I taught at the high school I attended as a teen, and it's a wonderful school. It offers many advanced classes, including those that allow students to attend high school for part of the day and the local college for part of the day. It also has classes where kids can work on cars to learn mechanics, classes where they learn construction and actually build houses, a class where students can learn cosmetology and barbering, classes where they can learn welding, and classes where the kids get hands-on experience with health care. The ag department is truly amazing. It includes aquaculture ponds, gardens, greenhouses, and other outdoor learning centers. The ag students also raise and care for animals on campus at the barn.
    
    As for teacher pay, it's not enough. When I graduated from college, I had several job offers from big companies in Atlanta to work in PR, at a salary three times of what I would earn as a teacher. Obviously, I turned them all down. My dream was to teach. If you've never taught, you don't realize what a demanding job it is. Of course, it's also immensely rewarding!

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    Don't you mean "write"?

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       I did it again! Yes I mean write, I must have been the confused one.
       
       Maybe the schools in the US are bad

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    rebekahELLEposted 14 years ago

    "My dream was to teach. If you've never taught, you don't realize what a demanding job it is. Of course, it's also immensely rewarding!"
    
    habee, I couldn't agree more. I dreamed since I was a little girl to teach and my dream came true. I have taught in both the public and private school setting for the past 14 years. Until you've actually worked, day in and day out, with these kids, whatever ages, one has no idea what it's really like. Teacher and administrators work hard, even the teachers who get a bad rap work hard. The responsibility is huge. I do agree with wild iris once she clarified her statement about not valuing education. Saying you're a teacher in America doesn't receive the respect it does in countries like France, where teaching and education are highly regarded.
    
    on the other hand, teachers want to be able to retire with a nice pension, nothing wrong with that. the problems occur when a teacher is teaching past her/his prime and is simply going through the motions to reach full retirement. some can keep teaching throughout their career and are remarkable, others should retire earlier when they've reached burn out.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    A Texan, that's one of the ways people defend homeschooling, I think it's so funny. When someone points out the homeschooling parent's misspellings or poor grammar to show they have no business educating a child, the homeschooler can retort, "That's because I'm the product of public education myself."

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       Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       But I'm a product of public education. Granted I make mistakes, grammatically and otherwise all the time. But they are mistakes and a product of me thinking too fast, not my education
       
       I think that there are pros and cons to both public education and home-schooling. I had a public education and I want the same for my children. Parents decide what they want for their children. What I think (or anyone else) usually doesn't matter

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       In my defense I just wasn't thinking about what I was writing, see I can do it!

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    QUOTE: the problems occur when a teacher is teaching past her/his prime and is simply going through the motions to reach full retirement. some can keep teaching throughout their career and are remarkable, others should retire earlier when they've reached burn out.
    ------------
    
    Many people would like to retire earlier than they can afford to but some, definitely teachers, should be helped to do so because their job and attitude, all that, is so important to so many children.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    My public education was NOT fine but my sons' was.

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       Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Can I ask why yours wasn't fine? And if yours wasn't, why did you decide to allow your son to go to public school?

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          TMinutposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Mine was a dangerous school, by the time my boys needed to go to school I was checking into homeschooling but their dad didn't like the idea and we were living in Germany where it wasn't allowed anyway. Then we moved to Utah where the biggest problem was kids chewing gum in class against the rules! The boys were fine there, learned plenty. When their dad left, I packed up my kids, sold the house and traveled with them in an RV for three years and taught them myself. The youngest didn't go to a public school until 3rd grade. When we stopped and stayed in SC, I wanted them to go to the local school so they could have something in common with the other kids - it was a small rural school system and it was great, not what I expected in SC. Now I'm in Utah again with the youngest. He homeschooled for the first couple of years for different reasons. And NOW, he's in public school because he needs to hear more than my view on everything! He's a teenager, he needs his own experiences away from me and that wasn't happening. Plus this school is for math/science types specifically and has access to equipment that I don't.

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    TMinutposted 14 years ago

    Umm, sorry, guess I talk a lot.

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       Colebabieposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       No no. That was good. So the only issue you had was the security? How was the actual education part?

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