i think, therefore i am. i know someone will post this, may as well be me if it hasn't been posted yet. ;P is there truth to that statement? thinking is what makes us individuals...but is thinking what makes us conscious?
Thank you Lyric. I didn't subscribe because my Infinite Modesty (of wich I'm so Proud...) prevented me from that. But you know me better and you included. Thank you. I'm glad you did it and I'm amazed at the sum of work you gave. From now on, I'll call you Lady Lyric, baby.
@skyfire..Rene Descartes arrived at only a single principle: thought exists. However some modern proponents took this idea one step further by adding that Even Thought May Not Exist. When you think that you are thinking because of your consciousness, may be you are not thinking at all, it could just be a small fraction in the whole equation of harmony.
Another assumption! I believe you can prove it wrong with validity tests. Can you?
as for the evolutionary advantage - we could debate this - sometimes, it occurs to me, so much thinking makes us very vulnerable to the natural world. I'm saying thought can be an impediment to actually staying alive. Of course, we like to think that this language-thought is what makes us superior - but we have invented the very concept of "superior" Living in a world where there is no "superior" or "inferior" but just ISness makes it possible to create and have things OCCUR to you - so I'm saying if we give ourselves permission to have purely sensory-thoughts for at least some of the time, we will be able to survive in even more incredible ways than heretofore.
wow ! I get the point I think - but just because thinking may be an evolutionary advantage - we now have to compete with other thinkers don't we, competition for the top spot predator. Maybe that is why the ultra rich are such assholes, it is their primal instincts gone berserk.
I kind of agree - I think if you are not also in touch with the natural world you are getting into trouble. Surely this is what meditation does though.
what I am thinking is that competing with other thinkers may be counter-productive and even kind of suicidal. If your goal is to have power at any cost, then your thoughts may lead to dominance over other humans and in the end you may find you missed out on things like the scent of a rose on summer evening as you sit next to the one you love on your grandma's front porch - or not . . . I think each individual gets what they get and I, from my perspective, feel sorry for thinkers who never really pursue their own totality and experience as much of the world as their opportunities will allow.
Simplistic thought is useful, but the world is so diverse!
Well, there is a "Theory of Knowledge" that tells us "grosso modo" that one part of what we know and what we are is just imprinted in our brain or somewhere in our body from birth. Our genes bear the basic code. And one part is contextual, meaning that it is aquired and developed by our environement as we grow. And this is very easy and intuitive to admit. Maybe "thoughts" emerge from the interaction between us and our environment. If I went into the trouble of writing this long post, it is because I've had dinner already. So, we could try the hypothesis that "thought" emerges from the stomach.
do people in a coma think? i think so. i think i would think regardless of the external stimuli... however, the environment around me gives me much to think about. gives me much to understand. gives me much to experience through thought and those thoughts also move me to experience outside of mere thinking.
i am a spirit in a physical body... my thoughts may be seen as brain chemistry, but the thoughts are what initiate the chemical reactions. not the other way around. can you "train" chemicals? can you train a plant?? i don't think so, but of course i can train my self to have healthy, beneficial thoughts which in turn gives me healthy brain chemistry and hence a healthy emotional state.
you CAN train chemicals - at least you can train them to follow a certain path - just as you can train a plant to move up a trellis by selectively cutting off portions and gently moving other branches - this kind of thing happens to our thoughts all the time, some people learn to consciously manage their own thoughts through quiet awareness in the world and then they overcome the predominant "trends" that are managing others' thoughts - or at least I THINK this is what happens - I am new to this quiet awareness stuff and I keep looking for quick rushes in the forums, which I get from other mind-control freaks, ahhhh lawzy me! dis here old world gettin mighty precarious!
As opposed to what? I mean that seriously. What's the other option? "Feeling" is a sensory or emotional experience that can be mitigated by what we call "thought". How can you pull far enough away from thought to observe it?
We can externally observe the thought of others by watching brain scans but that does not convey the experience of thought. We can only have that experience within ourselves but we probably alter it by observing it .
Yes, we can observe our own thoughts to some degree. I think you're right about meditation. That's one of the things that makes it useful. What I'm wondering about is the question of observing thought objectively. Can it be done? By it's very definition, isn't the only way to observe thought subjective?
I have beeg queshing - are we discussing the thoughts that are dependent on language? or also including thoughts that are sensorily based? because these are different to some extent. When you only discuss language thought you are leaving out the basis of the life awareness impulse that moves all living things with brains.
I think the issue is really whether humans are superior - so I take it a little further and say "the concept of superior/inferior is a human one" therefore, our perception of survival may not be the only one out there - therefore "thinking" the way we do it may not really be helping us survive. I think, myself, that at least some people survive IN SPITE OF all the thinking they do! this is just from personal experience. I am not a scientist! I just walk this way!
I think those that think too much are the ones that are constantly thinking about the future not being able to fully enjoy the moment. The ones that think the least seem to be the ones that live for the moment with no worries of the future. I think a person that worries the least is usually a person that thinks the least. What do you think?
I can't get youtube here so don't know what is on the video - but I think you are confusing living for the moment with not thinking. Not thinking just means someone else does it for you, the media, the politicians, your missus. If you choose to not think you may as well put a dog collar on because that is the level you put yourself at. Thanks for the humour - I just hope to hell you are winding people up as I think you are and not serious !
I am thinking and talking here about zen concepts of reality - I am not the best person to explain these concepts but they do describe fully what I instinctually believe is true about human thought - I guess what I am saying is that sometimes our highly developed ability to use language gets in our way. Living life fully to me means using my senses in harmony with my brain. I call that living a "whole" life. I have gotten my opinions from knowledge that is pretty ancient. East Indian Aryuvedic teachings, Buddhism in many cultures, early Christian teachings, all the ancient religions in other words, and more modern science teachings - all point the way to the sensibility of living this way.
I don't use the television as a source for knowledge, but more as an indicator of the trends that are out there in our cultures and how the power-mongers use them. I have to hear some of the stuff that's on it but I don't have alot of respect for it, certainly not as a teacher or model for my life. I see it as primarily a marketing tool.
I do see what you are saying about not thinking and just going along with what the marketers are selling you - easier that way for some.
But non-thinking as I practice it is instead a very powerful meditative tool for freeing my thoughts so I can be more open, as well as more in control of my own mind and more in harmony with it all. I believe in a universal harmony that pulls us back into balance, sometimes that is very hard to do - sometimes this process is grueling when we have been so de-sensitized that we don't even recognize that there is this other kind of thought than just word-thought.
I also believe that it is kind of dangerous for humans to be too attached to seeing ourselves as "superior" to other life in the world.
Ah - not thinking for short periods of time as in meditation, well that is different and I agree absolutely.
This started because someone else quoted what I expect is sound advice on the battlefield, about how thinking there can get you killed and instinctive following orders can keep you alive. But not a way of living that is helpful in daily life when the guy giving out the orders is selling you something if only his own re-election.
ah yes - and as for WHY we think? I think we think in order to reason and make choices - and also thinking, from every part of ourselves, communicates our presence in the world - so we don't get stepped on by accident. The teachers tell me that evolved thought brings calm mind which enables me to learn, create, and act as a knowledgeable person. Also thought is necessary in order to actually store memories which help me survive.
i like this ?. sometimes i think its a curse. thinking so much , about so many things not worth mattering . the brain never sleeps. we know so little about our own train of thoughts. i compare it to the question why do humans seem to have a need for a god. its unanswerable i think.
hehehe, you should tell me gorillas and chimpanzees take care of their babies emotionally and they do care about other chimpanzees, and they talk with each other as well, maybe science has not yet discovered how they talked to each other or how do they process their actions through thinking first??,
why do we think? i think it is because we can't not think. there's always something in our minds...they are not blank slates. i have heard that monks try to clear their minds comepletely for even a few moments, and that it is a process that takes years of meditation to achieve. guess that's just how we are wired.
The easy answer is as Cossette said because that is the way we are wired.
The tougher answer is in order to survive. Thinking is a physically weaker species coping method to overcome the stronger and physically more lethal competitors in our environment. The ability to think is something that develops over time much like the ability to climb trees or run really fast. It is an Evolutionary process, one that Humans have developed better and more completely than any other species on the planet. Thinking is our best natural ability.
Proving that we think is another topic, one much more complex and difficult to put into words. As is what is thinking, what are thoughts...
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