can anyone tell me more about oppositional defiant disorder because i think my son has this but im not sure and i need help. Finding out stories of parents whose children have this condition would be a big help, thank you.
How old is your child? Dependent on the age, ODD can be mistaken for lots of things... including normal childhood independence/rebellion.
Do not mistake lack of discipline and structure in the family for a mental disorder. Try reclaiming the parental role in your home instead of giving him an equal vote in the household before you slap on a medical label and medication that could affect his physical development - both for life.
I don't lack discipline and structure, my son is in a well controlled routine and is always punished for the naughty things he does.
AMEN sister! The extent of people's laziness and refusal to discipline and parent their kids is amazing to me. I agree with the person who said that this is just another plot of the biochemical/pharmaceutical companies to drug our kids.
When will people wake up to
the fact that the powers that be want one thing: control. They seek to accomplish this one of two ways. Either they will find some sort of medical label to place on aberrant behavior, or lack of proper social/coping skills so that they can drug you & keep your mind controlled; or, they'll kill you through the toxic poisons they are putting in our food.
Either way, the plan involves the enslavement of the masses according to what they choose to put into their bodies-via, in most cases, their mouths.
People need to stop being lazy & take responsibility for themselves & their children's behavior & actions, or lack thereof, of appropriate actions.
My own son was diagnosed with ADHD, & Asberger's syndrome, which is a form of mild autism. I believe that these symptom manifested after he was given a series of immunizations, recommended for school. I say this because he had slight autistic tendencies as a child, but it really did not manifest until middleschool, after he had almost all his shots.
The school immediately demanded to know why I wasn't medicating him. The reason they charged me about this is because I filed a complaint with the school board when they refused to evaluate him per my request and the law; and chose instead to give him an IQ test, as if I wasn't intelligent enough to know the difference.
After we got him in a specialty school, he has progressed and done better, but I was willing to take responsibility for some of his behavioral patterns, once I understood how his mind processes things. My son is overprotective of me, & tends to take my displeasure about something to a higher level. However, he is now excelling in school because he's getting the extra attention he needed-both at home with me & at school. His school told me that they wish more parents were as involved, because their kids would do so much better.
This is what I'm referring to. If the parents just parent as opposed to the new lazy practise of simply medicating because either they don't choose to make the time, or simply don't want to be bothered; their kids would be more managable. Defiance is not a disorder or disease. It is rebellion, and every child will rebel & test their parents to see what the parents will allow them to get away with.
My son's learning issues aside, when he acts defiant, I correct and/or discipline him. I used to spank him when he was little, & when he got too old for that, I'd take away toys, priviledges, game system or phone or computer priviledges. Whatever it takes to get their attention & respect. Some parents need to stop trying to win their kids over through money, and just accept the fact that they won't alway be liked or be popular with their kids. It just comes with the territory. Discipline your kids, & stop drugging them because you're lazy.
The American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry has helpful information and advice. All you're going to get here (in an open forum) are opinions and stories, which is fine, but it won't necessarily address the specifics of your son.
Nobody really likes labels, but that's for the benefit of the professionals who treat and work with those who need help.
http://aacap.org/page.ww?name=Children+ … r+Families
I have my own feelings and thoughts about these names and disorders. There isn't even a specific cause given to ODD. Biological, psychological and social factors may play a part. Working with children in my profession, I've seen all kinds of behavior. I've seen parents who don't care, and parents who try to do too much and parents who are simply disconnected from their children. When a parent has a child with troubling behavior, it's best to address it as early as possible.
There are normal stages of rebellion and oppositional behavior in children's development, usually around 2-3 yrs, and early adolescence when there is a natural tendency towards separation.
I will say very rigid parenting and harsh punishment is going to invite opposition. I'm not saying it causes ODD.
If you suspect your child has ODD, he will need a complete evaluation and I would make sure his diet is healthy without a lot of processed foods and sugar.
It means he has an independent mind and doesn't take orders so readily, which is now a scam by the drug companies to put your son on drugs.
Parents really shouldn't try to guess about a diagnosis like that (needless to say, and I'm not suggesting you're willing to "just guess" at all).
I knew one child (from two years old through her twenties) who had signs of having ODD. She had been diagnosed with "emotional problems". I didn't have access to the details.
The one thing about her that stood out from "run-of-the-mill" kids who don't respect their parents was that her "issue" with being told what to do/not to didn't just show up with her mother. It showed up at school, at relatives' homes, at friends' homes, etc. etc. Some kids have "tantrums" when a parent tries to tell them what to do/not do. They can be kids who "act up" with the parent for reasons other than having ODD. This kid that I have in mind just wasn't going to be told what to by anyone, no matter how firmly or nicely they said what they said to her. She had a reputation for herself wherever she went.
She did have a troubled background. From the time she was two and a half she was in a foster home. She was supposed to go back with her mother, but the mother did something when she was three or four that meant she lost all her parental rights. Not that I'm in a position to "have a theory", but I always thought this little girl had become bonded with her bio mother and birth family and wasn't about to "warm up", no matter how nice her foster mother was to her. I wondered if she just thought, "I have no choice but to be here, but you aren't my mother and I'm not going to be told what to do by you or anyone else who isn't my mother."
Another "theory" I had, though, was that because she'd been left completely on her own (with two younger siblings and some older ones) by the negligent bio mother, she may never have developed the kind of "wiring" involved with having an adult have a few reasonable rules without "freaking out" and not being able to deal with such a "perceived assault" graciously. Basically, she acted kind of Helen Keller in The Miracle Worker (wild) a good part of the time, or at least when she wasn't allowed to just do whatever she wanted to do.
I have known one family that had two children with ODD. Medication definitely helped one of them. I lost contact with the family around the time the younger one began showing symptoms. Both of them were in their teens when they were clearly diagnosed. I am somewhat skeptical of diagnosing mental illness of any kind in children, but I have read enough to know that some experts believe it can benefit the child to get help for the problem early in life, rather than waiting for adulthood.
To those who think the problem is a scam or a matter of poor parenting, I wonder if they have seen someone with ODD when they are in one of their rages? It's really beyond the bounds of a tantrum. In the family that I knew, one of the children was court-ordered to leave the state where they lived. I never knew the reason behind the order, but I know something rather severe had to cause it.
If children have problems it is usually the responsibility of the parents. Parents don't like to hear this but dumping on kids is just plain wrong.
Oppositional defiance disorder is one of the most nefarious labels I have ever heard.
If a kid is angry with a parent they usually have good reason.
Okay, first of all I have a son with ADHD, ODD, and Bi-Polar Disorder. He has struggled with these disorders for many years and my husband and I have also struggled ourselves and fought with not blamming ourseleves for his disorders.We have been told several times over, it is NOT our faults! It is a chemical reaction in his brain. He has been tested, re-tested, and had every kind of assesment he could have done, done! We are NOT a dysfunctional family. We are a Bible believeing, God loving, God fearing home. Christ is the center of our home and we believe that we can do all things through Him.
Now, with all that said, all three of the above mentioned diseases, yes they are diseases, are real and are serious. They are not to be taken lightly and they do require treatment. Are they overdiagnosed these days? YES! But are there children who really do suffer from them?! YES!! My son is one of them. If you don't think it is real, come and spend a week at my house! Come and see my sweet little boy who is just sitting and watching a show have something irratate him for now reason fly into a rage that lasts for 45 minutes and we have to hold him and restrain him because he might hurt one of us. Then he finally calms down and apologizes for the next 15 minutes and says it's my brain and I can't make it stop!
How about when he wakes up at 5am and jumps out of his bed and is jumping around the house screaming at the top of his lungs, laughing his head off, and running around the house. You can tell him to stop but he just runs faster. You can try any form of discipline on him and we have since he was little. This child has always been in trouble. We have tried anything and everything with him. He sees a Psychologis and Counselor. He is not foreign to discipline. He thinks it's all funny!!
That is true ODD. A Child that has ODD has no comprehension of authroity. They just think they don't have to listen and everything thing is a joke. Even though they get in trouble and no matter how many times they are told. It is the parents responsibilty, but parents with children like these are trying so hard!! Harder than those who just sit back judge will ever know!! Everyday is an uphill battle that we constantly fight! We don't just sit back and let our child do whatever he wants! Trust me, I don't want my child to end up in prison or something someday! We need support and help from others.
Hello aschnathorst, welcome to HP, first of all. You are such a newbie here, but I can see a fabulous future in store for you on HubPages. Your writing is close to perfection-IMO!
But down to the topic at hand:
"That is true ODD. A Child that has ODD has no comprehension of authroity. They just think they don't have to listen and everything thing is a joke. Even though they get in trouble and no matter how many times they are told. It is the parents responsibilty, but parents with children like these are trying so hard!! Harder than those who just sit back judge will ever know!! Everyday is an uphill battle that we constantly fight! We don't just sit back and let our child do whatever he wants! Trust me, I don't want my child to end up in prison or something someday! We need support and help from others."
I feel ashamed at my former comment and wish to apologize for sounding like I blame parents' inability to cope with the child's issues.
When I said, "It is the parent's problem/responsibility to deal with kid's anger. It is the parent's problem/responsibility to deal with kid's anger and defiance." I was not considering the holistic nature of ODD. Or the other disorders you mentioned.
I am also a diagnosed Bi-Polar and know what it is to be misunderstood. When in a manic phase, everything is terribly exciting and beautiful, when in the depressive cycle, everything is to be despaired. Hope is nil.
So, aschnathorst, please forgive my words, I think I simply misunderstood.
Thank you for the welcome and I look forward to my furture on hubpages. I love to write and am excited to have an outlet in which to do so. I am very passionate about my son and his diseases. I am sorry to hear that you also suffer from Bi-Polar disorder. I pray that you have found a way to manage yours so that you have a successful life.
Thank you also for taking the time to aplogize incase you hurt my feeling or felt like you were blaming us parents. You don't know how much that means to me and I'm sure to other parents. Everyday is such a struggle. We never know what kind of day we are going to have or what we are going to wake up to. I wish that every other parent could understand this and not just judge.
So thank you!
Your future in writing seems a sure thing to me, aschnathorst, so keep it up!
You know, my only child, a aon, sounds quite like yours. In another way, of course, but I'm thinking that my Bi-Polar diagnosis may, just may be a problem for him, too. I don't know this for sure...yet!
He's a person who, like yours, you're not sure what's going to happen at any given time. I'm terribly concerned about him and a possible B.P. diagnosis. We shall see...
And of course you are most welcome for that apology-I am no one to talk about bizarre kids!
I've never heard of ODD. Even the name 'oppositional defiant disorder' conjures up visions of a child simply refusing to obey authority.
I think I might have a touch of that!
In the workplace, I have no problem with authority, but in the home - well there just shouldn't be an authority.
Discipline is all about keeping kids safe and bringing them up to be stable adults that have a place in society.
Its all about love and respect, but when a child goes off the rails, that is more likely to be either frustration (because a need is not being met) or some kind of food allergy.
An artistic temperament maybe. They need an outlet and haven't found it yet, so until then they are 'difficult' to be around.
Else, a food allergy.
For free entertainment, we used to give our son a glass of Coca-Cola and watch him become completely hyper within minutes - shrieking, running, jumping, playing hard. This would last for about half an hour, and he wasn't the most pleasant child when he 'came down' either.
But we just restricted anything with caffeine or red food colorings and he was fine most of the time. (we never did find out the full list of foods - all those additives affect us in more ways than we'll ever know).
He grew into a fine adult, by the way.
But all this labelling of children by doctors who are probably trying to make a name for themselves is just OTT and deeply damaging to families.
Sorry, but that's what I think.
Oh, Izzy, NEVER say you're sorry for your opinions. I know you know better than that!
Aw well, guess I was just trying to stave off the flack LOL. Some people really believe and trust in their doctors, but I learnt long ago they are not Gods, nor anywhere near it.
I am in control and don't let my son just do what he wants, he's been a handful since he was little and he's constantly in trouble at school. But parents of children with mental illness are not to blame in any way, shape or form and i think people who blame the parents just don't understand how difficult it is being that parent and being judged by others.
I completely understand and am right there with you! I think we may have children that are very similar! I would be very interested to talk with you and see what your child has been diagnosed with and what treatments your child is on.
We have been struggling and battling with our son since he was little and we have turned to homeschooling. He was not functionable in the school setting. It has taken us years to accept the fact that it is not our faults and we are not to blame. His psychologist said he has a chemical imblance and there is nothing we can do to change that. So I ask all the people who say it is our parenting, how can we change a chemical imbalance?
We also have 2 other children. They are both well behaved children. They do well in school and very rarely get into any trouble. So if it is our parenting, why are they so well behaved? Apparently we are doing something right!
I think we need to keep doing what is right for our children! They need us, our love and our support. We know what our children suffer from and what we go through! Those who judge are just ignorant and have other issues so they need to point out something wrong in someone else so they can feel better about themselves.
well said Aschnathorst. I only have the one child so i can't compare him to any others but your correct in what you say. You have two other children and they are well behaved then it's definitely not your parenting skills. I think people who blame the parents or think we just like to put labels on our children don't have any idea what it's like to be in our situation. My son is still in school but the way he is going he will end up expelled so that is a worry to me that's why i need to get him help and soon.
There are plenty of parents who use some named disorder such as ODD as an excuse for their poor parenting, but I can guarantee you some children truly have a disorder and need help. I have a friend with such a child and she tried all sorts of approaches for several years. She was very ashamed of herself and and assumed she was a bad parent, although her second child was very well behaved and had no such problems, because she IS a good parent and she and her husband were doing all he "right" things as far as structure and discipline in their home.
However, it eventually became clear that something was terribly wrong and the poor boy could not control his emotions like the other children his age. He was eventually diagnosed as being bi-polar. That was about 10 years ago. He is doing well today, but his parents and doctors keep a close watch on him.
So as dangerous as it is to be a lazy parent and blame a medical condition for your child's bad behavior when you have not taken the time to teach him how to behave properly, it is just as dangerous to blame a very real, dangerous condition on poor parenting.
I don't blame the parents at all.
While some children are brought up to have no respect for anyone in authority, that is quite a different thing from having a child with anger management issues at home.
I just feel that, in my lifetime, from being a child through to a grandmother, I have never heard of such a thing as ODD, and doubt very much if it exists as a medical condition.
Loads of people have anger or emotional management issues, and they often first present in childhood.
Having said that, I don't think it is an illness or should be labelled in any way, it just IS, and most people do learn how to deal with it without drugs, medications or labels.
And why are so many Americans diagnosed with bipolar disorder?
There seems to be a huge number here on HP.
Either it is a common trait among writers, there is a national epidemic, or its just another fancy label doctors use when they don't know what is wrong.
But that label has a very deep affect on the psyche of people diagnosed with it, because we believe it.
How are children going to cope with being labelled (with a psychiatric condition) at an early age?
They can't shrug it off - it is on their medical records forever, and can (and will) be used against them at some point in their lives - most notably when they enter the workforce.
All I would like to say is, I think you need to do some more research. ADHD, ODD, and Bi-Polar are all REAL, VERY REAL diseases!! Just because you don't know about them, doesn't mean they don't exsist!
Do you think I like having my son labeled?! Because I can assure you we don't!
Wow, Izzy, I rarely disagree with you, however here, I do. While it is possible that Bi-Polar Disorder is a common trait among writers, I don't buy it that B.P.D. is some fancy name for the nutcases that come to Shrinks' office who have no idea what's going on. As to the # of B.P.s here on this site, I'm one, too. Diagnosed around 2 yrs. ago.
I was really nutz before I saw him; I'd see my deceased mother in the clouds smiling down on me, telling me everything was going to be all right, I found it very symbolic that when my car's speedometer turned 66,666, I took a photo of the speedometer itself to prove to my shrink that miracles were occurring. TRUE story-I'll even try to upload that photo here-not so great at photo uploading to the forums if you wish.
I DO understand your concern about labelling, esp. with children, but if B.P.D. is medically proven, meds are-at least for me-able to control the behavior. I have taken both Effexor-an anti-depressant and Lamictal-a B.P. med somewhat like Lithium for over 2 years now and the condition is under control. I no longer have visions, nor debilitating depression, nor delusions of grandeur; I thought I was THE sh*t!! I sure used to, boy howdy!!
And labeling is a pain in the *ss, I admit. But so is labeling of fat folk, the homeless, and many others. What to do? Accept the labellers and accept that they do not understand what had happened in the labeleds' lives to get them where they are currently.
So, Izzy, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it!
I think that having a child labeled and drugged should be a last resort. Some diagnosis are hard to make, and as ODD is a relatively "new" disorder, there could be a band wagon to jump on. Some kids have behavior problems that relate to a lack of sleep. I've read about studies that showed kids who have sleep apnea may have such behavior problems. This was found after they saw that kids who had their tonsils and adenoids removed suddenly behaved better - they were able to get a good night's sleep!
Also, kids need to get outside and run around, helps them sleep and helps them develop. Turn off the TV, as that can lead to problems in many kids who watch way too much TV. Doctors are now claiming that no TV at all before age 2 is best for brain development.
There is a very big contrast between unruly children who have no respect for authority and those who have ODD. As a classroom teacher I have had the pleasure of teaching both. It is unfair to lump parents who have children with honest medical problems with those who simply have no control over their kids.
Should all of these children automatically be labeled and drugged? No of course not. But if you are SURE that a child has this condition then it would be negligent not to take the proper course of treatment to allow that child to best function in society. Why would you make that child suffer if he or she can be more successful with treatment, which yes may mean medication. If you have ever been around children with ODD you can clearly see that there it is not just your typical testing of authority.
Without intending to stir the pot at all, I would like to say that all the comments in regard to Nature vs. Nurture remind me a lot of the stages the medical community and society have been through in their understanding of homosexuality. First, it was considered to be the parents' fault (usually the mother's); later, as more and more claimed they were "born this way," researchers began to investigate more closely; finally, evidence was found that indicated a genetic basis for it. There is still a slight debate about whether the genetic tendency can be altered through the course of one's life, but there is not much belief now that it is caused strictly by one's upbringing.
In my opinion, there are other personal conditions that are going through similar shifts in the way medicine and society understand them, although far less dramatically. It seems to me that ODD is going through this shift right now, as researchers try to puzzle out how much of it is hard-wired and how much of it is caused by parenting styles. The fact that it hasn't been identified throughout all of human history is due partly to the fact that it just hasn't been objectively investigated in the past.
Oh hey - sorry I didn't mean to be offensive (I just AM sometimes, even when I don't mean to be)!
I appreciate bipolar is very real, though it is a relatively new name for manic-depression.
A few of my friends have it. In fact, one of my friends' sons died from it when he was only in his 20s. (No, it wasn't bipolar - it was schizophrenia.)
Horrible disease, and I do apologise, but there does seem to be a lot of writers have it.
My bestest friend in the world also has it, and she is fine when she stays on her medication, but every now and then she tries to ease herself off and while she is great fun to be around at that time (she goes hyper first), when the depression hits she is a nightmare!
I might have it too for all I know, but as I won't leave the house, I can't see anyone about it, so no label for me
Should just have stuck to child labels. I see from this thread there does seem to be a real problem with some children, but I still think we should be looking at food additives rather than psychiatric conditions for the answer.
Oh Izzy, don't apologize, I don't remember one time that you've been 'offensive' here on HP. Anyway, back in the 70's, docs used to call me a 'manic depressive', or simply a 'depressive personality'-I remember all that stuff. All this labeling of illness is just that-a bunch of changing terminology.
So sorry about your friend's son. Schizophrenia is awful, in fact just last nite I was watching 20/20 or some such show and they were showing how the behavior of CHILD schizophrenics affects them, their friends and families. It was a mind-blower. I think I'm going to try to get a video of that particular show or something on the Internet, we'll see.
Your bestest friend sounds exactly like me. Before the meds, I behaved in very similar fashions. It IS crazy!
Izzy, I'm not sure I understand something...did you mean you can't leave the house or won't? That's something that could be meaningful...let me know, okay?
On the 20/20 episode there was talk of nutrition for these girls-most of them were between the ages of 8 to about 10! It was sooooooo sad. For everyone.
I don't know if they talked of additives since I started watching the show 1/2 way through. Forgot what time it started, duh!!
I agree, though, they've got to do something better than meds for a condition as bizarre as schizophrenia-those meds can be nightmares themselves. Additives just may be the culprit.
I'll go along with that ("additives just may be the culprit"), but I would amend that additives may be a part of the problem. We have a very good friend who has schizophrenia, and there were always two big things that stuck out to me about her story and family history. One was that they used a lot of mothballs in storage. Once they gave us some beautiful apples as a gift, but the odor of mothballs (used in the same room where the apples had been stored, but not actually to preserve the apples themselves) was so strong, it changed the taste of the apples and I had to throw them away. - This was not a food additive, obviously, but an environmental chemical that could get into the bloodstream and brain, even just through the air.
The second fact that stuck out to me was that this friend commented on how "good" she was as a baby, compared with her brother. In fact, she said, she was so good that her mother could sit her down in front of the TV to watch for long periods of time, whereas her brother would have just crawled or run away. I don't know whether the long periods in front of the TV for an infant with a developing brain caused some of the problem, or whether her passivity as an infant was an indication that the problem already existed; but I always felt that it was somehow connected to her difficulty.
Oh I'm not ill, just lazy lol
I really seem to have turned into a "where ever I lay my hat, that's my home" sort of person.
If I go to the pub, I am the last to leave. At work, I am the last to leave. Go stay with someone for a couple of days, and I am there for a week or two, or until I feel I have outstayed my welcome.
Many times, I miss nights out, because of course I have to leave my home first to go.
I miss appointments, because I haven't actually got round to leaving the house.
It's a wonder I actually caught those planes last week!
But no, not ill, unless docs want to re-write the books to find a label (please don't tell me there already is a label lol).
I'm not scared or anything, just lazy - can't be bothered moving!
I was talking to my daughter about the ODD in this thread title, and she has never heard of it either (though she looked it up right away on her iphone).
She is a midwife and mother of two small children and so is kinda qualified to know about those issues, and she agrees with me that food additives MAY be the problem, or it could be that whoever defined 'normal behaviour' got it wrong.
There has always been children whose behaviour is wilder than others; difficult children that can have their parents pulling their hair out with worry, but those children all grew into normal adults (eventually!) with proper home discipline and care.
The children to worry about are those who swing kittens by the tail, or poke puppy dogs in the eyes, or otherwise hurt animals.
Studies have shown that many murderers displayed this behaviour as children.
Jeeze Izzy, if there's a label for laziness, I suppose it'd be 'LAZY'. And, my dear, I have it too! At the moment I can't-because of the hip surgery, but often I do stay in the house because of the pain-before the surgery. Right now, in fact, I am so incredibly bored that I snuck out into our garage-didn't want the hubby to know I was out there 'in my condition'-and swept the entire garage! With a still-healing hip! Now THAT'S moronic, but not my usual laziness. I'm sure it will set back in once I've completely healed.
Anyhow, I was interested in what your daughter had to say about ODD. When my only son was in first grade, his doc diagnosed him with ADD. My hubby disagreed with that, saying, "He's just being a KID, for God's sake!"
I, unfortunately, chose to listen to the professionals and put him on Ritalin. That was a huge mistake. His behavior was most bizarre and he wept most of the days he was on the stuff. It really was a nightmare.
I have heard that childhood animal abusers often become violent towards human beings, and it does seem true
I'm off to do hip exercises now, Izzy!
I agree that there have always been children with wild behavior, but I'm not so sure about them all growing into normal adults. I think in long ago times, many of them would have been the ones who went to war and either got killed (or possibly came away as heroes - but more likely as villains who committed heinous acts in war). Or they may have ended up in jail, if they didn't get killed first.
Agreed - in fact, I've heard this behavior attributed to mass murderers, not just your garden variety of murderers with opportunity or crimes of passion.
by kelfr30 12 years ago
How to deal with children with ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)?
by T. Clifton 7 years ago
Have you ever heard of oppositional defiant disorder?Do you believe it's overused like ADHD? Do you think it's a real diagnosed? Or do you think children just need a good old fashioned spanking?
by Peeples 8 years ago
Does having moments where you want to strangle your children make you a bad parent?Never acting on it of course.
by Karen Ann 10 years ago
I am a young mother of three, I had my first child when I was 18, my second at 19 and my third at 30. Firstly, I was brought up in a large dutch reformed family. My father was extremely strict, but plain old mean! I wasnt spanked but beaten. When I had my children I vowed never to lay a hand on...
by Wendy Iturrizaga 10 years ago
Spanking as a form of disciplineThe are many parents who believe that corporal punishment is necessary for successful child rearing. Is that true? Or is spanking another form of child abuse?
by Leaderofmany 10 years ago
It seems that parenting either goes one of two ways, a parent either overparents and harms the child, if you can call that parenting, or they don't parent and the child is running around and doing as they please. Where is the parenting I grew up with where even the neighbors displined me?
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