Asking hard questions of Atheists.

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calynbanaposted 12 years ago
I have been noticing that Theists are usually stuck with the burdan of proof when it comes to their beliefs.

This thread is about asking Atheists what they believe respectfully. It is for theists to get a better understanding of the views of Atheists. Remember the questions being asked are from theists to atheists. There is a twin thread where atheists can ask theists questions.

I am not trying to create an us against them mentality which is why there are twin threads. I am trying to avoid bickering and pointless attacks.

Theists remember that God loves everybody on these threads, try to reflect that love.

Atheists remember that everyone on this thread is seeking truth, just like you. Please respect their search of truth.

I will not delete any comments, or report any comments. However if you are beng disrespectful and trolling you will be ignored. Try to contribute to intellectual discussion with respectful and insightful views.

Have fun!
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Theists are the ones "stuck with the burden of proof," because they are the ones making the assertions.
  
  That is how it works.
  
  A-theists simply do not believe in a god. There are no beliefs involved.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  THIS is the best lesson I've learned about living harmoniously with people who do not believe. If there is a gap as wide as the one between belief and non belief, it cannot be closed by any manner of discussion. Therefore, it's best left alone to avoid the conflict.
  
  If I'm going to talk to Mark these days, I leave alone anything having to do with religion and/or belief in God, just like I learned to do with (from) Ernest.
  
  Hiya, Mark.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey.
  
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  luvpassionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Mr. Knowles
  
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  Chris Nealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Probably a good idea. I almost wish I'd read some of the posts from Ernest.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No atheists have an even greater burden of truth. It is much harder to say something does not exist than to say that it does. Look at the whole loch ness case.
  
  The existance of God can logically explain the beginning of the Universe. if you like I can lay out the logical syllogism.
  
  How does the belief that God does not exist logically respond to the beginning of the Universe?
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You understand what you are stating is a logical fallacy, begging the question?
  Again
  
  Your premise is everything need a beginning
  and conclusion Hence god created everything
  Is not a valid argument, because
  you exclude god from your premise without any valid stated reason.
  your premise is false
  your conclusion doesn't follow your premise.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In a nutshell, "Well, then, who created God?"
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes.
  Saying universe is created by god for sure, but I don't know who created god is nonsense, or wishful thinking, the hope of the theist.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But that assumes that God, if He exists, is bound by the laws of the universe as we understand them. But He's not bound by those laws: he's omnipotent, omnicient, and omnibenevolent: it says so right on the label.
  
  Belief in God allows for the existence of something passing our understanding and transcending our universe. Logical? Nope. Not a bit. But I still like it and take comfort in it.
  
  Who created God? I dunno. Doesn't really matter to me.
  
  But that doesn't mean we should stop trying to figure out the universe we live in: it's a fascinating place, and I think God (assuming that He exists outside of my mind) would want us to try and figure it out.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I quite agree with what you said in the replies to others Jeff, but here I've some difference.
  Past is an assumption, we cannot go back to the past or cannot reenact the past to prove it. We can only explain the past, so as it is us who do the explanation and not god, we are bound to do it logically and rationally.
  Our only truth and reality is the present, and in the present we have matter and space and no human being has ever seen something comes out of nothing or something becomes nothing. What we call time is just the change of location of objects. So if we travel "through past" we will just see objects changing location but never will we reach a time when everything becomes nothing. So there is no creation.
  Even if we assume creation by god we have to assume god existed before creation. So the matter that make up god and the space that give shape to him was always there. So matter and space are eternal and hence not created.
  In my reply which you commented I showed why god is a logical contradiction.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "So the matter that make up god and the space that give shape to him was always there."
  Again, you're assuming that God (whatever God is) is made of matter and takes up space. If God created the universe we live in, then God created matter and space. If he did that, how could he be made of one, and occupy the other?
  
  I know it's not rational; we've agreed on that. And that's part of the problem when discussing God: God transcends the laws of physics as we understand them. God need not be made of matter; God need not take up space.
  This raises a couple questions, of course: "What's God made of, then, and where is He?" My answer? Heck, I sure don't know.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Space is "nothing". Space is our conceptualization of nothing, the border-less expanse, the absence that separates two objects. Space is ubiquitous and as space is 'nothing' we cannot say space is created. Space is not a 'what', space is a 'where' and we can never reach the edge of space.
  No I didn't speculate what type of matter god is made of, I only say god is an object, hence made of matter(doesn't matter what 'matter'), as god should have shape to separate himself from his background space.There is no 'physics' involved, only reason.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  " I only say god is an object, hence made of matter(doesn't matter what 'matter'), as god should have shape to separate himself from his background space."
  
  Again, that assumes that god is made of matter, which may or may not be true, given* that God created the universe, and doesn't necessarily exist within it.
  
  "There is no 'physics' involved, only reason."
  Right, but even reason breaks down when you stipulate the existence of a God: a being not bound by the laws of physics as we understand them. God might be made of some kind of un-matter, and take up no space at all. I don't know.
  
  *And I realize that we have to assume the existence of God for the sake of argument: it cannot be proven.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Forget the word matter. God need to have shape to 'exist'. Universe is a concept. Nobody can live in a concept.
  
  On the contrary only with reason we can accept or refute god for no normal human being has ever seen or heard god.God need to differentiate from space otherwise he will be nothing.
  
  Proof is just an opinion., Didn't the moon lo existed before it was proven?
  'God exist' is a hypothesis. But no theory can be formed from that hypothesis.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Forget the word matter. God need to have shape to 'exist'.
  
  Really? What shape is an amoeba? Does an amoeba exist?
  
  Universe is a concept. Nobody can live in a concept.
  So, you don't live in the universe? Where then do you live?
  
  On the contrary only with reason we can accept or refute god for no normal human being has ever seen or heard god.
  
  Well, I think we're using the word "reason" differently: you're using it to mean "thinking" and I'm using it to mean "logic." Of course we can only accept or deny the existence of God by thinking about Him, but the very idea of god as a concept is illogical: the existence of God does not follow from the available evidence. We believe on faith, not based on proof.
  
  God need to differentiate from space otherwise he will be nothing.
  Must God be visible? Tangible? I've got a God-label that says otherwise.
  
  Proof is just an opinion.,
  No, it's not. Proof is evidence. I can hold the opinion that ice cream makes computers run better--spoon it right in! But that's not proof. Proof would be me spooning some ice cream into my PC and turning it on, and actually getting better performance.
  
  Didn't the moon lo existed before it was proven?[/b]
  Of course it did (probably). Some people think stuff comes into existence as we discover it. I don't know for sure that they're wrong.
  
  'God exist' is a hypothesis. But no theory can be formed from that hypothesis.
  Right: it's all guesswork, really.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Really? What shape is an amoeba? Does an amoeba exist?"
  
  it doesn't matter what shape it has or whether it can change shape. All it matter is it has a shape to differentiate it from its surrounding.
  
  "So, you don't live in the universe? Where then do you live?"
  Live on earth, is it not? Universe is our conceptualization of the space and the matter around us. For universe to be an object it need to have a shape, we need to, at least, conceptualize the edge of the universe, can you?
  
  "but the very idea of god as a concept is illogical"
  Irrational too. You cannot rationally explain how god created, all explanations are irrational.
  
  "Must God be visible? Tangible? I've got a God-label that says otherwise."
  Neither, but he need to have shape.
  
  If I say there is circle in the first box do you agree? You have to conceive it in any other color other than white to say there is a circle, that is there should be a differentiation from the background. For god to exist, he need to differentiate from the nothing that surrounds him, shape.
  
  "Proof is evidence"
  Really? Suppose the finger prints of the accused is there on the knife used for murder prove it is he who killed. For the defense it is the proof that he was trying to save the victim.
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The existance of god can not logically explain the beginning of the universe.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Consider this syllogism.
  
  1) Everything that begins to exist has a cause.
  
  2) The Universe began to exist.
  
  3) Therefore the Universe had a cause.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  1) The fine- tuning of the Universe is due to physical necessity, chance or design.
  
  2) It is not due to physical necessity or chance.
  
  3) Therefore, it is due to design.
  
  If you would like me to defend the premises I will do so on the Asking Hard Questions of Theists thread.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Where do you find the facts proving point 1?
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Come over to the other thread, I will respond there. This is for asking Atheists questions.
  
  Do you believe the Universe is fine tuned?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Is it that difficult to post a link to your facts? If so, no thanks to your offer.
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  My facts come from numerous books, not websites. Therefore linking you to them would be quite difficult...I can tell you my favorite of the books if you like?
  
  The reason I am keeping these threads separate is to avoid unfriendly banter as found in some other threads. I will stick to this.
  
  So what are you beliefs about the beginning of the Universe Mr. Godwin?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who said it began?
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you believe it did not have a beginning? If so can you explain that to me?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sure, you'll find the answer right behind the wall at the end of the void.
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is about logically explaining your beliefs. If you cannot answer you can simply say I do not know.
  
  Do you think truth is relative or objective?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You mean like you answered my first question concerning #1?
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I told you I would answer your question. On the correct thread. This is not the correct thread. Go to the thread called Asking Hard Questions of Theists.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  See, the atheists aren't scared to admit that they don't know, while most theists like to pretend that faith = knowledge. That's the main difference.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think anyone has ever witnessed or recorded a single item ever beginning to exist.
  
  Don't the laws of physics say that matter/energy is interchangeable but cannot be created or destroyed?
  
  Wouldn't it follow that matter/energy must be eternal?
  
  So where is the beginning?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What are your feelings on the beginning or lack of beginning of the Universe. I need to clarify what you are asking here.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not asking anything. I am pointing out the fallacies in your claim.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did your physical body begin to exist?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Since my body is made of matter and energy which cannot be created or destroyed, then the matter and energy I am made of can't have ever begun to exist.
  
  That is unless matter and energy can be created and destroyed, which as far as we know, it can't.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Your axioms have to be facts in order for your syllogism to be logical. You have presented no actual facts.
  
  That there was a beginning to the universe is not an established fact.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Other thread.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Remember this is for understanding the beliefs of atheists. I am a theist and my argument supports theism. I cannot defend it here.
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am arguing based on where you presented your argument, which is here in this thread. I am a theist as well. God will never be explained logically, no matter how hard you try.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not trying to explain God logically, I am trying to understand the beginning of the Universe via logical arguements from both theists and athiests. I provided the arguement to get the atheist thread going. I will answer to it on the other thread where I posted the same argument and you responded to the same argument.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - you think the burden of proof is on those who do not make the assertion?
  
  This would be why your beliefs cause so many wars.
  
  The whole what ness case? If u cain't disprove it the Loch NEss Monster is real?
  
  Sorry you do not understand the word "logically"
  
  Ifn u meen goddunnit - well OK then. This is why the FSM despises you.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think if you are going to make a claim (God does not exist) and attack people for believing in this God but not be able to answer the questions you ask of the theists yourself then I think there is an issue. What I have gotten from reading the threads the last couple days was that Christians get stuck trying to defend themselves, while Atheists do not have ANY answers to the same questions they are ridiculing the Christians for not answering to their satisfaction.
  
  What is more ridiculous, having plausible answers to questions and believing in these answers or having no answers to questions and then ridiculing those who pose answers?
  
  If you want to make extraordinary claims about there being no cause to the Universe, or the Universe existing for infitinity then you need to prove your claims. These are the claims I have found the atheists on this page and the other making. These are the claims you are responsible for proving. Otherwise you are not in a place to be able to ridicule those who can provide some proof for their beliefs.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I think if you are going to make a claim (God does not exist) "
  That's not the claim that atheists make.
  
  The real claim is this: The existence of God is unproven. (This is a true statement, btw.)
  
  The atheist decides not to believe in the existence of an entity whose existence is unproven.
  
  The theist decides to believe in the unproven entity, on faith.
  
  The arguments start when the atheist starts making fun of the theist for believing in something that is unproven, or the theist mistakes his faith for knowledge and starts making fun of the atheist for not accepting the 'truth.'
  
  I believe in God. Not because someone proved that God exists, but because it feels right to me. This is not logical--it's a gut feeling. I take it on faith. And--this is the important bit--I know that my faith is not the same thing as knowledge. I don't know that God exists. I believe that God exists (maybe because I want God to exist?), but that doesn't mean that God does exist.
  
  I guess I'm more of an agnostic theist: I believe in God, but not with certainty.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Jeff! I can accept this with no problem. Too bad others do not have your courage and honesty.
  
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  jdflomposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That was really well said, Jeff. I have a very similar mindset, just on the other side of the coin, as my gut feeling is that there isn't a god.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mark, what's the FSM?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  He is referring to the Flying Spaghetti Monster. MC. A more kindly and logical god than that of the christians.
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Mr. Godwin, I have to say you are definitely guilty of a similar mindset you accuse the theists of.
  
  Tell me, what is your belief system based upon?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I really cannot tell you how much I appreciate your analysis of my mindset, Mr. Cal. You should have told me earlier you were a psychologist too. ORU?
  
  I believe in reality.
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You are being very vague, and not actually saying what you believe. You believe in reality? That is great! I do too! We have some common ground to stand on. Now what do you believe?
  
  (Btw not mr.)
  
  Not a psychologist no, as I told you before an educator. I spend a lot of time analyzing childish behaviour. Honestly when you answer sarcastically and with personal attacks I am getting this, "I do not have the answers you are looking for so I am going to try my best to put you down and try to make myself look better in comparison"
  
  I keep asking you the same questions because I want you to prove me wrong. Prove to me that you have some ground to stand on with your belief in atheism.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Most "atheists" do not claim there is no god. People who claim that make up a small percentage of atheists.
  
  Atheism in the broad sense, is the lack of belief in a god. It does not require belief in anything else.
  
  I personally do not believe anything about the origin of the universe. Does it just annoy you that you have nothing to argue against?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nope not at all. I am not trying to argue with you. I am trying to understand what you believe.
  
  Now if you do not have any beliefs about the origin of the universe do you think you are in a place to ridicule the beliefs of others (I am not saying that you have done so I am just asking your opinion.)
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes of course. If someone believes that clothes come alive at night and have parties when you are asleep are you not in a position to ridicule their belief just because you don't share that belief?
  
  This question doesn't even make any sense. You wouldn't ridicule a belief if you held it yourself so surely the ridiculing is only ever done by people who don't hold the belief.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Universe began. You would be hard pressed to find a scientist who disagrees with this premise.
  
  We do not know how it began.
  
  Some people have theories.
  
  Some people don't even try to have theories.
  
  Is it okay for those people to ridicule the people who at least try and think of a cause?
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am talking about matter and energy, the things this universe is comprised of. If matter and energy are eternal, then the beginning of the universe was simply a change in the form of matter and energy that always existed. If the matter and energy always existed then it cannot have been created.
  
  You will be hard pressed to find a scientist who disagrees that matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed.
  
  If the theory is ridiculous then YES.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think this is part of the mentality that makes atheists so frustrated with theists. You're trying to force someone who does not believe to tell you why. They have no reason to try to formulate a reason for not believing in something unless you are first able to prove that the something in question is a given FACT. Until you have empirical evidence that God does in FACT and WITHOUT question exist - then you can't demand 'proof' of anything from them - or even a reason why they don't believe.
  
  Like I mentioned earlier - there is no wider gap as the one between belief and nonbelief. A theist is not a failure if they cannot convince an atheist to 'believe.' And, an atheist's non belief is simply that - non belief. No amount of discussion can bridge the gap.
  
  Most importantly it's just plain rude to force any sort of conversation on a person when they emphatically express their disinterest.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not asking why atheists do not believe in God, I am asking what they do believe.
  
  So basically the only belief of an atheist is that there is no God?
  
  Without even posing possible answers to the Big Questions that other faith systems try to answer can atheists then call other faiths ignorant or unintelligent? ( This is not a shot, just an honest question)
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't believe there is no god and niether do most atheists. We simply lack the belief in a god.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I could be wrong but I think that the greatest arguments that an Atheist has is more about the Bible and how it is interpreted than it is about IF there IS or IS NOT a God/creator.
  Whether there is or is not a society outside of this space time continuum.
  
  From my prospective this is what the bible is talking about.
  That society is able to interact in our affairs.?
  Why can it not be, that if they are there, we are interacting with them in ways that we are unaware of.
  Such as Hiroshima. When that bomb went off, it might have shaken their world a little bit too..
  
  I admit, this is a bit "Twilight Zone-ish" .. but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes - you are wrong.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am not asking why atheists do not believe in God, I am asking what they do believe.
  
  So basically the only belief of an atheist is that there is no God?
  
  Without even posing possible answers to the Big Questions that other faith systems try to answer can atheists then call other faiths ignorant or unintelligent? ( This is not a shot, just an honest question)
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  From what I've been told by atheists, a non belief in God/gods makes ALL of the questions of ALL religions moot.
  
  And, it just so happens that as a theist, I stand in total agreement with them.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Not really. Why do we exist, what is the purpose of life, how did the universe start, what happens when we die, is there objective good, why is there suffering, what is the value of life, what is evil, and so on. I think that atheists would need to answer at least some of these questions. If you disagree give me your reasons.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Who says our existence requires a reason?
  
  I don't think anyone knows that otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.
  
  We get buried or cremated
  
  Good and bad are subjective
  
  Maybe there is no reason for anything. Why should there be?
  
  Maybe nothing maybe everything
  
  A subjective opinion based on human emotion
  
  I disagree because in order for something to be discredited does not require another explanation to fill the gap.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ditto. And, just because I have spent a good portion of MY life looking for answers to many of these questions does not mean that others feel the same need to do so.
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sometimes I wish I knew everything. No wait, I always wish that.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wouldn't that be awesome?!?! I'd just walk around all condescending telling people "I know something YOU don't know!"
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'd be Mr. cool saying "bless you" just before people sneeze and answering everyone's questions before they ask them.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you want those questions answered?
  
  Secondly, I'm in a position to answer such question. The biggest question is are you willing to accept the answers as laid out?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Belief in atheism"? I would like to put a LOL smilie here, but risk getting called childish again by someone who is an educator, and who has observed children in a classroom setting. That far outweighs my more than 50 years of experience dealing with Baptists who were drafted as children and grew up into adult Baptists.
  
  Besides this I have read literally thousands of books in my lifetime about many subjects. I am not impressed with your questions nor your answers and suspect you are still very young. How old are you and what are your credentials for analyzing anyone's behavior?
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Dear me. This is why your religion causes so many wars.
  
  Could you be more condescending? Still waiting on your proof that there was a time when the Universe did not exist.
  
  Odd how aggressive you religionists are. Almost like you don't actually believe the nonsense you claim to believe.
  
  Can I cite you as proof that your religion is nonsense?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This thread is for asking atheists if they believe anything. I am not trying to be aggressive I am trying to ask you nicely to quit trolling.
  
  Literally thousands of books huh? What type of books, do you believe any of the information in any of the books? Do you believe in the memories you hold about these Baptists?
  
  I am not here defending my beliefs, I know they are beliefs not fact. I tried to provide you with the reasons for my beliefs. I tried to ask you why you reject them. Fine you reject them and you do not need to tell me why, I can accept that. Do you have any theories about the Universe, was it here for an infinite amount of time, did it start? Do you actually have any beliefs about anything?
  
  Or do you spend your time simply ridiculing those who attempt to understand the world?
  
  In your fifty plus years what have you come to understand about the Universe and the world? If you do not care about them as some people have said in this thread then why are you here? Is it simply to troll or do you have a reason?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Besides quoting the wrong person, you still did not answer my questions concerning YOUR age or qualifications to judge anyone's opinions here. One more time, perhaps?
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You ignore my questions but ask me more of them. Run along now, Ms.Yo-Yo!
  
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is why your religion causes so many fights.
  
  Not sure how believing in majik is attempting to understand the world either. But - no one is fooled by you.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I cannot provide you with proof to your satisfaction. It is a belief, a widespread belief even among scientists but still it is a belief. Now I will not respond to anymore questions on this thread. I will be more than happy to do so on the other thread. I am sorry to have kept you waiting but I have to work so I cannot be at the computer all the time.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's right, every time I ask you your age and qualifications you have to run off somewhere fast. I suppose I'll have to post the same questions on the other thread.
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do I need qualifications to have beliefs and to try and defend them? My age is not important, just know that I am a lot younger than you and I am coming into this discussion with a lot more respect. This thread is for asking questions of atheists which is why I am not answering many of your questions, come on over to the correct thread. You like to have rules in threads right? One of the reasons I have this rule is to cater to you Mr Godwin.
  
  Also sorry about responding to the wrong post, I was answering quickly on my lunch break and was not paying as much attention as I should have.
  
  Randy, I really want to answer any serious questions you have. I will do my best to explain to you why I think my beliefs are reasonable to me. On the correct thread. My reasons may not satisfy you as everyone is different. All I am asking for is a little respect from you, and a little less trolling. If you really are 50+ you should be able to approach a conversation with a little tact.
  
  I keep asking you questions because that is what this thread is for remember? I am trying to keep the thread on track. That is all.
  
  I was hoping that through seperating these threads we could have pleasant and civil conversation rather than a heated argument.
  
  Can you see where I am coming from?
  
  I am not trying to insult your beliefs, I just want to understand them. I ask that you show the same respect. If you do not want to do that I am not sure why you are on these threads.
  
  (Just for the record reading thousands of books about whatever you read does not give me faith in your intellect or abilities. For all I know you have been reading the magic school bus series. I just don't have that type of faith in people. If you want me to understand where you are coming from you need to explain it to me, or at least answer questions in a more adult manner).
  
  I am not trying to be flakey I just cannot be online all the time, I work full time and I am planning a wedding. I will do my best to respond quickly but please have patience. I will answer asap when you ask me serious questions.
  
  I don't want to argue. I want to have a conversation. I am not trying to be condescending or controlling, I am trying to avoid conflict. Am I making sense?
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Ah...thank you. I feel enlightened now.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course you do. No adoration or sacrifices are required to believe in him. This means no virgins, burnt livestock, long boring completely false sermons, or lack of intelligence, is necessary to be an admirer.
  
  Ramen
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  All praise his noodly appendage
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Randy do you believe yourself to be an intelligent person?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Apparently not. I cannot make myself believe in supernatural gods. I suppose I'll go to hell for it. Even though I've read thousands of books, including the dreary old bible, I still nothing to indicate the need for gods.
  
  What about you? Are you intelligent?
  
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  Jesus was a hippyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The bible is ok but the koran is where all the action is
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The Koran is more flammable...
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do not understand why you keep resorting to childish insults of the Bible. I want to know if you believe anything. Do you? I am not trying to attack you, I want to actually carry on a conversation with you. Do you believe that there are objective morals?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I've tried adult insults to the silly book, but you didn't like them either. Did you ever answer my query about your age and/or qualifications to judge anyone's opinions here on the forums? What degrees do you possess which makes you any better judge of my intentions than my own?
  
  If you have already responded to these questions, please tell me and I will go back and look. You vanished suddenly after the queries were made.
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Randy I want to talk about your beliefs respectfully on this thread. I do respect your beliefs, I used to be an atheist up till last year. I just wish you could respect mine as well. I may have been a little uptight in some of my responses and I am sorry if I upset you in any way. I just want to have a civil conversation without the ad hominems. Is that possible?
  
  I am not going to tell you my age or qualifications because that is not relevent to the conversation. I don't believe age and maturity go hand in hand as much as they used to. As for degrees I think it is kind of funny that you are asking. May I ask why? If you can explain why respectfully I will gladly tell you a little more about myself. Maybe you could give me a little more to go off of about you too afterwards.
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually, the virgin thing is being discussed by the high council...
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  Sooner28posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  When a person begins to learn logic, one of the first elements he encounters is this burden or poof business. What is it? Why is it important?
  
  Burden of proof simply means that whoever makes the positive claim has the burden to defend it. For example, if I am a prosecutor, and I claim that Joe Blow murdered Sassy Kathy, the onus is upon ME to prove he did that. The defense does not have to disprove my claim. All they must do is poke holes and show I have not proven it, or show there is "reasonable doubt" that Joe Blow killed Sassy Kathy.
  
  This is similar to the way theism is. The theist asserts that God exists, and that a supernatural world exists. The theist must provide evidence, or there is no good reason to believe. There could be "reasonable doubt."
  
  Most atheist arguments are simply a response to certain aspects of God. If God exists, why do natural disasters occur? Or is the concept of God coherent? If the theist fails to establish that God exists, they lose.
  
  They lose because a tie goes to the atheist. If a theist asserts God exists, and there is no argument that can show he/she/it does, then, even if agnosticism is the most reasonable position, theism loses. All talk of divine intervention, revelation, and the like fall by the waste side.
  
  Of course, there is always blind faith. If there is no argument that establishes God exists, but a person has a deep intuitive feeling God may exist, then Kierkegaard's famous leap of faith comes into play. But that isn't a logical argument for God's existence. It's just a belief.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes I believe i should not have used the term Burdan of Proof. I worded that poorly. I was only saying that maybe atheists should say what they actually do believe instead of just rejecting what anybody else believes and not providing answers to the Big questions other faith systems can answer
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  Sooner28posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. That's a good point. The particular atheist must the defend whatever he believes, and answer objections.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  " If there is no argument that establishes God exists, but a person has a deep intuitive feeling God may exist, then Kierkegaard's famous leap of faith comes into play. But that isn't a logical argument for God's existence. It's just a belief."
  
  Yes, this^.
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  twosheds1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in peace, love and rock & roll. Beyond that, not much. The list of things I don't believe in really is as infinite as your imagination. I don't believe in fairies, unicorns, nymphs, satyrs, sprites, pixies, dragons, gods, demons, devils, ghosts, ad infinitum. But whether I believe in something is immaterial. What really matters is the truth. For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I have been noticing that Theists are usually stuck with the burdan of proof when it comes to their beliefs."
  
  Well, that's because it's theists who are making assertions that they know something. If you make a claim, you have to be able to prove the claim (with evidence and stuff) if you want to convince a skeptic.
  
  An atheist doesn't make any positive or negative claim; rather, they remain unconvinced of the existence of a God based on the evidence available to us.
  
  Also, all of the logical arguments that support the existence of a God ultimately fail.
  
  Everything has to have a cause. Okay, so what caused God? And what caused the thing that caused God? And so on, etc. ad naus.
  
  Sooner or later, the theist has to fall back on "it's turtles all the way down," which is both lazy and intellectually dishonest.
  
  I wish theists could stop pretending that our faith is logical: it isn't. That doesn't mean we're wrong to believe in God, nor does it mean God doesn't exist. But what it does mean is that there is no proof of God's existence, and atheists have no burden of proof. We're the ones trying to convince them of the existence of something.
  
  They're not trying to convince us of the non-existence of anything; rather, they're pointing out that our believe in an unproven entity is not logical. And they're right.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It certainly makes a nice change to hear this instead of being attacked for irrationally not believing in something that is logically impossible.
  
  And of course - not being able to prove it does not exist.
  
  But - this means less fights and ill will. Are you sure that is what Jesus wanted?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, most people (theists and atheists alike) have this burning desire to be right all the time, and to make everyone else admit that they're right.
  
  If more of us were willing to admit that we're not sure about stuff, there'd be a lot more harmony in the world.
  
  I think there's a God. But we can't quantify his existence or measure his influence on the universe in any way (at least not in any consistent, meaningful way that we can understand--not yet). I think that this is probably the way God wanted it (assuming that I'm right about His existence).
  
  I don't think He meant for us to be fighting about it.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  But this is not the biblical god - right? This is some sort of god that takes no interest in human affairs.
  
  I can sort of understand a belief like this, but - Why would you think you know the intentions of something that by your own admission - you think we cannot quantify?
  
  Admittedly - the intentions you apply to this thing you think exists are far less extreme than most theists' - yet you think you know what it wants.
  
  Why?
  
  This is what causes the conflicts. The belief that you think you know what this thing wants. Not the initial belief.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well, I really don't know. I suppose it's possible that God could be a petty vengeful being that gets His rocks off by messing with His creations and smiting them when they step out of line, but I doubt it.
  
  I doubt it because I doubt that a being powerful enough to create the universe and everything in it would feel a need for the wee critters in the universe even to acknowledge His existence, let alone do what He tells them to do.
  
  Plus, I think if God had instructions for us, he'd have made them rather more clear (him being all omnipotent and everything).
  
  I think God wanted his existence to be unquantifiable and unprovable precisely because His existence is unquantifiable and unprovable. I mean, if I buy that an omnicient and omnipotent being exists, then I have to assume that His desires are going to lay the groundwork for the universe, right? And since we haven't been able to prove God's existence, it's because that's the way God wants it (assuming my assumptions are correct, that is).
  
  Though, by the same logic, I suppose that since we do fight over God and what He wants, then that also has to be the way God wanted it. Unless we further assume that we have free will for some reason: that God (for reasons of His own) doesn't make us do what he wants, and lets us decide for ourselves how to behave.
  
  Heck, I don't know.
  
  I do know that it sure would be great if we'd all try to be nice to each other for a change....
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your last statement,but there is a far, far simpler alternative than the scenario you are proposing.
  
  Having said that - I was more asking this as a personal question - which you neatly avoided by the way. Perhaps it was the way I worded the question, so I will try again.
  
  You apparently believe that there is an "unquantifiable and unprovable" entity that created the Universe.
  
  Given that it is "unquantifiable and unprovable" - what makes you think you know what it wants? Why would it not want us to fight to the death to see who is the strongest for example - as opposed to being "nice" to each other?
  
  In fact - given the way your god set nature to work, the former seems far more likely than the latter.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "You apparently believe that there is an "unquantifiable and unprovable" entity that created the Universe."
  I'm with you so far.
  
  "Given that it is "unquantifiable and unprovable" - what makes you think you know what it wants?"
  Oh! I don't. Not for sure. I know what I'd want if I were the Creator of the Universe, and that's the best I can do for guessing at what God would want (assuming He wants anything from us at all).
  Arrogant? Yep. Just as arrogant as the people who claim God wants us to be mean to certain people, in fact.
  
  But that's why I don't try to force everyone to be nice to each other, or try to outlaw mean people, or carry signs that say "God Hates Jerks."
  
  I think God, if He wants anything from us, probably wants us to be nice to each other (not sure why, but probably because it's a lot more comforting that the idea that God wants us to fight to the death for His amusement). But I'm not going to be mean to people who disagree with me.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So basically it makes you feel better to think you know what it wants?
  
  Do you see how dangerous this way of thinking is? Once you think you know what it wants - and history bears me out here - it is not much of a stretch to think that you ought to be making other people do what it wants.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Do you see how dangerous this way of thinking is?"
  Absolutely, when coupled with certainty. It's not people who have (conscious) doubts about their faith that burn witches and stone adulterers. It's people who are dead certain.
  
  There are three things that keep me from becoming a jerk-burner:
  
  1) To be a jerk-burner would mean that I'm being a jerk to the jerks I'm burning, which is the opposite of what I think God wants me to do (i.e. don't be a jerk). And then I'd have to set myself on fire (assuming of course that God condones jerk-burning, which I don't think He does in the first place).
  
  2) Doubt--or at least, the lack of certainty. I could be wrong about what god wants, so I'm not going to try to make everyone follow my ideas about what God wants.
  
  3) There are plenty of reasons not to be a jerk-burner that have nothing to do with God, what He wants, or whether He exists, and they're all very good reasons.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Actually - I think you are wrong. It is the ones who are not so sure burning jerks is what god wants that do the burning. That way they have something concrete that they can point at to prove how faithful they are.
  
  Thank goodness I am not religious.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Right, that's why I qualified the statement with "(conscious)."
  
  Nobody burns anyone at the stake for saying that apples fall up or that 2+2=pi. You can usually guess how unconsciously uncertain someone is in their beliefs by how angry they get when you challenge those beliefs.
  
  I'm comfortable in my heresy. I welcome anyone who wants to join me, there's plenty of room. Just don't be a jerk.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - given your previous statements about what this god wants - or not - why the need to believe in it?
  
  As I said - I can sort of understand believing in a non-personal god, but - this personal one invariably causes nothing but arguments and fights. Even amongst believers.
  
  You consider yourself a heretic, and certainly as I understand what the Majik Book says god wants, this would be my understanding also.
  
  Why empower and validate all those jerk burning believers by agreeing with them that their irrational (not to say delusional) belief in a god is warranted, by agreeing with them that you think there is one? You just think it wants us to be nice to each other instead of burning jerks.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - given your previous statements about what this god wants - or not - why the need to believe in it?
  
  It just feels right to me. I don't need for anyone else to believe in it, if that's what worries you.
  
  As I said - I can sort of understand believing in a non-personal god, but - this personal one invariably causes nothing but arguments and fights. Even amongst believers.
  
  Sure does! Lots of fellow theists get all kinds of angry with me when I remind them that faith /= knowledge or proof. Ah, well.
  
  You consider yourself a heretic, and certainly as I understand what the Majik Book says god wants, this would be my understanding also. Well, there's plenty of contradictions in the Bible. I've never accepted the idea that the Bible is meant to be literally true. That's a great reason to be a heretic, imo.
  
  Why empower and validate all those jerk burning believers by agreeing with them that their irrational (not to say delusional) belief in a god is warranted, by agreeing with them that you think there is one?
  Well, just because I believe that there's a God doesn't mean I believe that the jerk-burners are carrying out His will. There's a group out there called "The Christian Left," and they're all about reminding the so-called Christian Right of all the things that Jesus is meant to have said that re flat-out incompatible with right-wing politics. Does that organization validate the Christian Right merely by believing in Christ? I don't think so.
  
  You just think it wants us to be nice to each other instead of burning jerks.
  True. There are also plenty of other good reasons to be nice to each other, but no reason at all (outside of dogma) to be mean to [insert group that God is supposed to hate here].
  
  Don't be a jerk: it's not just a Commandment; it's a good idea.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This still empowers the jerk burners. And - your opinion is no more or less likely to be correct as to what this god wants.
  
  So - the left wing christians are validating the right wing beliefs that there is a god - and in this case there was a Jesus - which is highly unlikely.
  
  Now it just comes down to 2 groups of believers arguing about what god wants.
  
  This is why believing in a god causes so many fights.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This still empowers the jerk burners. How so?
  
  And - your opinion is no more or less likely to be correct as to what this god wants.
  Exactly: that's kinda my whole point. There's no proof one way or another that God even exists, much less that He wants us to hurt each other. So why don't we try to make ourselves better people before we go around making each other miserable?
  
  So - the left wing christians are validating the right wing beliefs that there is a god - and in this case there was a Jesus - which is highly unlikely.Validating--or at least agreeing with--their assertion that such a being exists? Yeah.
  
  Now it just comes down to 2 groups of believers arguing about what god wants.
  Right, sort of. Seems to me, if you've got someone being a jerk and using a holy book as his excuse, the best way to get him to stop being a jerk is to show him the bits in the holy book that tell him not to be a jerk. At the very least, it might get him to consider that being a jerk might not be the best way to please God. Telling the jerk-burner that there's no god at all won't get him to listen to you: he'll just tune you out, and may even try to set fire to you as a heretic.
  
  This is why believing in a god causes so many fights.
  I don't think it's the belief in God but rather the ego's need to be right that causes the fights.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It empowers the jerk burners because you are agreeing with their basic premises:
  
  1. There is a god
  2. god sent his son Jesus to save us from something
  3. It is OK to believe nonsense with no proof
  
  So - now it is just a question of fighting over what this god wants. The bible is massively unclear as to what god wants and there is at least as much in the bible that can be construed to mean burn the jerks as there is that we need to be nice to each other.
  
  Pretty sure that the belief in god is one of the major causes of strife and fighting over the last few centuries. Not the only one for sure, but believing in nonsense with no evidence is also damaging to the mind and our society. If you did not believe in a god - you would be able to see that.
  
  But - your need to be comforted by the idea of a god is so strong it over rides many other considerations. You are just self-aware enough to be able to see that - it just makes you feel better and that is (almost) reason enough to believe in a god. I say almost - because you need to go one step further and imagine you know what it wants.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It empowers the jerk burners because you are agreeing with their basic premises:
  
  1. There is a god
  Okay.
  
  2. god sent his son Jesus to save us from something
  Okay....
  
  3. It is OK to believe nonsense with no proof
  Lol, okay, you got me there.
  
  So - now it is just a question of fighting over what this god wants.
  It needn't descend into fighting. (It often does, granted, but it doesn't have to).
  
  The bible is massively unclear as to what god wants and there is at least as much in the bible that can be construed to mean burn the jerks as there is that we need to be nice to each other.
  
  Yep, I can't argue against that.
  
  Pretty sure that the belief in god is one of the major causes of strife and fighting over the last few centuries. Not the only one for sure, but believing in nonsense with no evidence is also damaging to the mind and our society. If you did not believe in a god - you would be able to see that.
  Oh, on the contrary: I can totally see that. But I disagree that the mere belief in God by itself is the cause for strife. When a fight is solely about whose version of God is the correct one, it's more ego-driven than actually God-driven: "I say that God wants us not to kill each other, and I'm willing to torture you to death to make you say I'm right."
  
  But usually, strife has other causes: one group wants another group's land, or livestock, or oil, or wants to turn the other group into slaves so the first group won't have to do unpleasant work, or whatever. But most people are at least decent enough to know that wanting the next country's stuff isn't a good enough reason to go to war. So the leaders cloak their war in religion, and pretty soon people are killing each other in the name of the Prince of Peace. It'd be a lot funnier if it weren't so tragic.
  
  But - your need to be comforted by the idea of a god is so strong it over rides many other considerations.
  Well, it's not so much the need for comfort that makes me believe in God, but rather a gut feeling that there is one. My need for comfort is what makes me believe that if God wants anything from us, He probably wants us to be nice to each other. The idea of an omnipotent being that wants us to pull each other's wings off for His entertainment just gives me the screaming heebie-jeebies. I could be wrong, though, and I recognize this.
  
  You are just self-aware enough to be able to see that - it just makes you feel better and that is (almost) reason enough to believe in a god. I say almost - because you need to go one step further and imagine you know what it wants.
  Oh, see, I don't know what God wants. I have my ideas about what God probably wants, assuming God is the sort of being I imagine Him to be (a benevolent one). But I can't say I know anything about God for sure. Not and be intellectually honest with myself.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - given the reality of nature. i.e. survival of the fittest, constant human conflicts, suffering, wasps laying eggs in living animals for their young to slowly devour alive, etc, etc, etc - what makes you think this god is benevolent? Or even interested?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So - given the reality of nature. i.e. survival of the fittest, constant human conflicts, suffering, wasps laying eggs in living animals for their young to slowly devour alive, etc, etc, etc - what makes you think this god is benevolent? Or even interested?
  
  That's a darn good question, and I have no good answer, other than to counter your examples of nastiness with examples of the sublime: the Mona Lisa, the music of Igor Stravinsky (or Smokey Robinson, or Keith Richards, or Merle Haggard, or Mozart, depending on your taste) the poems of William Butler Yeats (or Shakespeare, or Basho, or e.e.cummings), Bushmill's Irish Whiskey (or Jack Daniel's, or Dewar's, or...well, you get the idea), Star Wars, Voyager II, etc. And the fact that the more we learn, the closer we come to figuring out how the universe was made. Our own brains are freaking amazing. Does any of this amazingness prove (or even indicate) the existence of God? No, of course not. Proof doesn't enter into it. It's a gut feeling, not an intellectual process.
  
  Look, I don't need for you to agree with me that God exists, and if it looked as though I was trying to convince you of God's existence and/or benevolence, that's my fault. I wasn't, and am not. Heck, I don't even need for you to respect my belief in a benevolent God. You can think I'm a sentimental, illogical fool for believing in a benevolent God if you want; it's no skin off my nose. And you'd be right--at least about the sentimental and illogical part: I'm frequently both of those things. But I hope that I'm self-aware enough to know that any ideas I may have about a supreme being and its wants/needs are conjectural, neither better nor worse than anyone else's. I further hope that I'm clever enough not to be manipulated by those who would invoke God as a reason to hurt others.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You guys are on the wrong thread. :s I am sorry to be annoying but I must point this out.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I have to agree , cause those that are certain are searching their own eyes for planks instead of looking for splinters in everyone elses.
  And when we find peace within ourselves, that is what flows out of our mouths.
  
  It is said that as we judge so shall we also be judged.
  Sounds to me that says for every ounce of judgment coming out of our mouth shall be heaped upon our own head.
  Or something like that?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yup. That is why I think it is all nonsense. 2 billion believers and all they do is argue and fight?
  
  That was the first "proof" I had that there is no such thing as a god.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  i don't think that constitutes proof ... cause those that are certain are searching their own eyes for planks instead of looking for splinters in everyone elses.
  And when we find peace within ourselves, that is what flows out of our mouths.
  
  You hardly ever see these people because they are doing what they are supposed to be doing.
  They don't get out much and when they do; they don't attract much attention to themselves.
  
  Kinda like saying, my house don't have termites ... cause I never see them.
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is why I used "proof" instead of proof.
  
  My house doesn't have termites because I have inspected it and looked real hard for them.
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  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  speachless for the moment ...
  and besides I gotta go out into the world for a while.
  later gater.
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  Motown2Chitownposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's true, Mark. Not all of us demonize non believers - or try to convert them. Jeff and I think a great deal alike. And, Jeff, you say it quite well!
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  kerrygposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  A+ post, Jeff.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You misunderstood the premise. It is not everything that exists must have a cause, it is everything that began to exist must have a cause.
  
  Also this is not about fighting this is about asking Atheists what they do believe. There is another thread for them to ask Theists what they believe.
  
  Some of these threads have become impossible for people to converse on because of back and forth arguing between different groups. I wanted to try and break up the arguments and still be able to understand what the different people involved believed. That is all the thread is for.
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Lol... Thats what happens when you try to control people. Are you getting frustrated that thats not working for you?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  No I think that this thread is working rather well, mind you the twin seems to be more positive. I am finding a lot of trolling on this thread, also a lot of insults.
  
  I am not trying to control people, I am trying to limit the trolling and arguments that happen in most religious topic threads. That's all. Even with attempting to avoid these confrontations (I just want respectful questions and answers from both sides, somehow that seems to be really hard on this thread, it is working on the theist thread)
  
  Not frustrated really, on a little disappointed in a couple of people here. I really expected some intellectual discussion on this thread. I am still hoping it will happen.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay, does everything that exists have to begin existing at some point?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I do not believe so, I do not believe the initial cause could have began existing to avoid an infinite regress. This is just my belief. I think I am going to start prefacing everything I say with "this is just my belief" maybe it will avoid some argument...
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "infinite regress", do you even understand that nonsense?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes which is why I used the term. Do you understand what it means? Also it is not nonsense it is quite the opposite.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't understand what it means.
  Infinite is an adjective(hence denote an object) and regress is a verb(denote motion).
  So if I say large eat or triangular laugh, will it make any sense to you?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "Large eat:" a meal that leaves you with a feeling of being overly full.
  "Triangular laugh:" a joke shared by three people.
  
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is not a matter whether you can guess a meaning out of it, it is whether it carry the meaning precisely and unambiguously.
  And an adjective is supposed to qualify a noun not a verb.
  So what does infinite regress mean?
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "I do not believe the initial cause could have began existing to avoid an infinite regress."
  
  So do you recognize that this is illogical? (Not that it's bad, just that it's illogical.)
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  What part is illogical? I recognize that everything needing a cause is illogical. But everything that begins to exist does need a cause, based off of what is observable in our natural world. The only thing I do not believe would need a cause would be something eternal. The name given to this eternal cause is often God.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  In other words, "It's turtles all the way down."
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  Panacea-VVDposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  First let me say that I think this is a great thread, a worthy topic, and a well-phrased question put to the community.
  The burden of proof is indeed at the heart of the issue. The reason for this is that anyone, anywhere, and at any time, can make a claim. In order not to waste our time and energy investigating infinite claims, we have to weed out the ones that are devoid of merit, and only consider the ones that might yield useful results. As such, the person making the claim has to provide some evidence of its merit. That is not to say that they must prove the theory credible - the requirement is less demanding than that - they must only show evidence of some indication that might logically lead to their conclusion upon investigation. This brings us full circle to the initial question of why atheists refuse to believe in God: what evidence indicates that proper research and exploration might prove the existence of God? Atheists contend that in the search for truth, while faith may have been big in the dark ages, it has no place in an enlightened scientific age. Similarly, the existence of the world and of life falls short of the mark, because using that fact as evidence of God is a textbook example of the logical error known as "animistic fallacy" (i.e. the incorrect assumption that the existence of something means that it was intentionally brought about). Of course, if you don't subscribe to logic, then it's pointless having this argument, or any other for that matter! One theory, for which there is an abundance of evidence, is that people NEED to believe in God. Psychologically, the belief itself acts as a support system and a coping mechanism, albeit one that atheists often view as an impediment to our collective progress and the intellectual evolution of the human race.
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calynbanaposted 12 years ago
Let me start this off which a question that bothers me.

Atheists do you have beliefs about the beginning of the Universe?
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  Mark Knowlesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  There was a beginning?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you believe there was?
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  twosheds1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Again, beliefs are unimportant. How it really happened is. Lawrence Krauss, in his new book "A Universe From Nothing," explains how the universe came into being from nothing. He takes a whole book to explain it, so it's hard to summarize it here. Basically, "nothing" is unstable, so "something" has to exist. Time started at the Big Bang, so it's not like sapce was just sitting there before it, waiting for something to happen, and then it happened. There was no "before."
  
  At least that's how I understood it. This isn't pulled from his nethers, either. He provides evidence to support his assertions.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would like to read that book..I am a little skeptical but quite curious. I am confused as how nothing can be anything including unstable but I will give it a shot.
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  twosheds1posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't claim to fully understand it. A lot of it went over my head, but I stuck with it. Hawking's latest book "The Grand Design" offers a similar explanation.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Atheists don't have beliefs about the beginning of the universe; they have theories, some better supported by evidence and math than others. When one theory is disproven, it gets abandoned in favor of a more robust theory. Atheists aren't afraid to say "I don't know."
  
  Most theists, on the other hand, think they know when they merely believe, and under the misapprehansion that they know how the universe began, etc, tend to feel smugly superior to atheists, who don't know, and what's more, know that they don't know.
  
  Of course, there are a lot of atheists who mistake the fact that they aren't convinced of God's existence for evidence that there is no God, and they feel smugly superior to those who do believe in something that's obviously (to the lazy atheist) untrue.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with your posts Jeff, but many of the atheists I wanted to lure over to this thread are the ones who are attacking the theists on other threads for "unreasonably" holding to their beliefs. While at the same time providing no reasons why they think the beliefs are unreasonable, alternative answers they think are reasonable or even being willing to say I don't know.
  
  These are the atheists I wanted to ask questions of, because it seems to me they have a smug belief in themselves. I want to understand why people who claim to be rational thinkers think this approach is reasonable. Am I making sense?
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  BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You make perfect sense.
  
  The village atheists make nonsense.
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  Jeff Berndtposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  many of the atheists I wanted to lure over to this thread are the ones who are attacking the theists on other threads for "unreasonably" holding to their beliefs.
  Well, it's not 'reasonable' to believe in a God. It feels right to me, but not because of any rational reason.
  
  I can tell you why faith is unreasonable: there is no evidence of God's existence. He cannot be proven through experimentation, observation, or mathematical proof. Can't be done. Any assertion about God's existence or nature is pure speculation (scripture notwithstanding).
  
  In a discussion about the origins of the universe, there's a few possible conclusions. "God dunnit," "I dunno," or "I'm not sure, but here's a pretty good theory, with math and physics to back it up." But my favorite answer is something like this: "I think God did it, and I'm pretty sure that this theory is how He did it, based on this math and this physics."
  
  But I don't know.
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peeplesposted 12 years ago
I Will not pretend to know how we were created. To say I know would be equal to saying I believed in God. What I do know is that Christians believe there is a creator who refuses to take care of all of his children and the world he created and that is simply not something/ someone I can believe in. I would rather have no god than to believe we have one that doesn't care.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Okay I can see why you feel that way. I wonder though, do you have any beliefs other than the rejection of God?
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  peeplesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I believe in doing good whenever I can because it is the right thing to do, not because a book told me to. I believe in creating our own hell or heaven on earth. Life is what we get and we can turn it into a wonderful or horrible thing. I just believe in living life the best we can with who we have in it. I see no need in believing in anything really outside our ourselves.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Makes sense, how do you decide what is the right thing to do?
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, here you are again! You seem to run off every time I ask you your age and your credentials for your opinions here. Ready to answer now?
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I responded above did you get it? And I am not running off do not try to discredit me. If my assumption is wrong I apologize but that is what this looks like. I work. I answered as much as I could during my lunch but is simply not possible for me to be on the computer often enough to keep up. I will answer as soon as I possibly can, but weekdays I will be offline more than on. I am sorry if this is not ideal for our conversation but it is the best I can do.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Never mind. I received the answer I wanted. You've asked me questions, but apparently do not feel I am worthy of the same. Goodbye, Missy! I have no respect for you or your little threads. You know what you can do with them and your old book of goat herder myths. Deal with your own ilk, you are all the same!
  
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Hey Randy, here is something I thought you might like and enjoy sharing with "others" LOL...
  
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dK3O6KYP … re=related
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks, DS! Very interesting, but proof means nothing to creationists and believers. Besides, it isn't in the bible!
  
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  BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How old are you and what are your credentials?
  
  Do you have a PhD in Bible Studies from Regents University like your buddy Doctor Double Scorpion says he has? Only thing I can't figure out is why he doesn't know it's Regent and not Regents.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am 61 years old, BJ. I've dealt with narrow minded believers most of my life. One cannot sling a cat around here without hitting a Baptist up side the head. Most of them are so ignorant they think god himself personally wrote the bible and were indoctrinated into the church at an early age, losing what sense of real awareness they were born with long before they ever had a chance to use it. What's your excuse? Were you one of them too? I would bet on it!
  
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Randy I challenge you to reread every post you responded to and your response. Really think about what you know of the people you were speaking to. Then come back and see if bringing up narrow minded baptists is even relevant to the thread.
  
  I have tried to talk to you about scientific theories, I have tried to use logic, I have tried to be friendly and I have tried to rebuke you.
  
  More theists have been answering respectfully and thoughtfully than atheists. There are some atheists who did respond in a way that contributed to the conversation. You were not one of them.
  
  Your responses have been ignorant and narrow minded. Exactly the attributes you accuse theists of having.
  
  You can say you don't believe in God, I can see that you need more solid evidence than what some other people have.
  
  However I do not know if you have seriously considered the evidence for a God, and the evidence that there is no God.
  
  Think about it. What I have noticed on this thread so far is that atheists do not believe in God because they cannot experience Him with any of their senses. This is a valid point.
  
  Can you experience the thoughts or feelings of yourself or others with any of your senses?
  
  There are more scientists who are in favor of the Universe having a beginning. The other option (that it did not and has existed for infinity does not fall in line with what science can observe and seems impossible)
  
  If the Universe had a beginning, then the cause of this beginning must be outside of time and space. Something that did not have a cause as it existed before time.
  
  The way the Universe, the earth and all life forms interact makes it hard to believe it was chance. I cannot remember the exact number but it was something along the lines of 1 out of 10 to the power of 500 was the chance that our earth could have life on it. This is for a single celled organism. Not even the complex life that our earth hosts.
  
  The chances of complex life existing by chance is very hard to believe, especially when you add orphan genes to the mix.
  
  The other option that many people believe is that the world was fine tuned by whatever caused the beginning of the Universe. I believe this makes sense. You don't and that is fine.
  
  I have a little something to add about historicity and the Bible but I will not mention it right now to avoid sarcastic ad hominems.
  
  I have outlined why I believe in a Designer of some sorts. I have given you my reasons. They may not sound convincing to you and that is fine, but can you see how they may be convincing to some people?
  
  It is not always a narrow minded belief based entirely on one book (or more accurately 66 historical documents). It is often a well thought out belief system based on things outside of religion.
  
  In my becoming Christian reading the Bible was the last step. I was more worried about the questions science cannot answer. I was more worried about what I thought made sense. (Mind you it was what I thought made sense I am not saying it is the only thing that makes sense)
  
  I have been reading the Bible now and comparing it to other documents and ideas as well as belief systems.
  
  I was not an indoctrinated Baptist. I was an atheist until last year. My family members are all atheists.
  
  Yet you still approached me as if I was an irrational Baptist of your memories.
  
  I think that you must have had a bad experience in a church with Baptists (Sorry for stating the obvious) and that you now paint all Christians with the same negative brush.
  
  That is just as risky as being racist or ageist. It is extremely narrow minded to assume a group of people are all the same.
  
  It would be like me saying all atheists are like Stalin.
  
  It is illogical and simply emotional.
  
  You are the one who is coming across as ignorant, which is surprising considering your age. There is no need to be so openly hostile to any group of people and it is really disheartening to see somebody be so hostile.
  
  You are a 61 year old man who has read thousands of books. You should be able to communicate some tact and grace. Instead it is the same bullheaded insults that teenagers use that I keep seeing you throw at people.
  
  I feel really weird saying this, but grow up.
  
  Realize that people are individuals and are all different.
  
  Just because you are older does not mean you are any wiser.
  
  I am sorry to rant at you Randy but I find your approach and blatant discrimination sickening.
  
  I can see no reason why atheists and theists cannot have pleasant conversation about what they believe and why without throwing insults around.
  
  You seem to think it is necessary I guess that is another belief we differ on.
  
  I really hope you will at least consider what I have said here.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Missy, you refused to answer my queries. I feel the same about yours. If the universe has a beginning, then so did your god. FO! Your opinion of me is not worth discussing. You are probably a very young girl with very little experience with real life. Your posts indicate as much. I'd rather you not address me again and I'll do the same for you.
  
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  peeplesposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  calynbana, I decide what is right with common sense. It doesn't take much thought to know bashing other's for what they believe is wrong (even if I don't believe it), or to donate our extra produce we grow to people who need it so we don't have to trash it. Life is just common sense. We should all use our brains a little more and depend on other's to tell us what is right a little less.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you entirely.
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Browergal68posted 12 years ago
Well I am a Baptist and God the Almighty saved me and turned my life that was bound straight for Hell, around and on the road to redemption when I was 35 yrs old. I am not a bible thumping freak by no means but I take one heck of an offense to someone putting my Lord and Savior down or attacking a fellow brother or sister in the belief. So either talk civil or back down.
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  GTH
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  N.I.T.E. LOL...
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Or what?
  
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Honey I have read your nasty little vindictive posts. If I wasn't the Christian believer I am today I'd give you an ear full that would make even you blush with shame... ROFLMBO!!!
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh please stop, sweetie pie! You're frightening me so bad! I've been reared around some of the most ignorant Baptists the world has ever known down here in the deep south. You'd get along well with them, I'm sure.
  
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Deep south? Well just where the heck do you think I come from Yankee?
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Randy, the Yankee Doodle Dandy?
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  LOL... Good one!!!
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  janesixposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I was mocking you....
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh well... I've read your hateful posts also. Do you think your childish behavior and words will effect me? Nope!!! Think not. I have watched how all of your little group of atheist bullies gang up on some poor unsuspecting Christian and tear them to shreds. Well I don't have all the book smarts of the Bible to back me up, but I have the love of God. I guess you could call me one of those Jesus Freaks! Yeah I like that!!!
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  jomineposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They are called psychotics, not freaks.
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  jdflomposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Browergal68: I don't know if you've read the posts carefully enough because janesix isn't an atheist, nor is she hateful.
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  BLACKANDGOLDJACKposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  janesix can't even spell athiest.
  
  Of course she believes in God. She believes in a girl god named Kali.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I never claimed to be an atheist. Agnosticism is my view. You may want to look up the meaning of it since you are a baptist. I don't know if there is a god or thousands of them. I figure if there is one there's bound to be more.
  
  But so far, I've seen no evidence of any of them. Book smarts? No, I didn't suspect you of that either. Once again, you admitted to being a Baptist, and book smarts is not a requirement for that particular cult, as we've observed here quite often. Jesus freak? Yes, that does rather fit you well.
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, I knew you were from somewhere in the bible belt, You did say you were a Baptist, didn't you? Florida, probably! You have the attitude, anyway! :lol;
  
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Cagsilposted 12 years ago
Randy, a Yankee?

WOW! That's definitely something I've not heard on HubPages.
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Browergal68posted 12 years ago
jomine you say it one way I say it MY way!!! Oh and sorry jd... I didn't realize that mocking had become a nice attribute. My bad...
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  jdflomposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nice, not nice... only your personal opinion can dictate that; but hateful? Far from.
  
  At this point though, it's getting too off topic.
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Browergal68posted 12 years ago
Randy, you may feel you are insulting me. Well good for you. I accept your veiw. I felt that way to at one time. As for being a CULT, no it is a RELIGION. Heck the Baptist's even look down their nose at how I believe. I am one of a kind. Just the way I was created. A Jesus Freak, yes, that would be me. Kind of a Jesus Hippie wanna be. I am proud of who I am and what I believe.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That is great I am glad you can respond with such a positive attitude. That is sorely lacking in this thread :s
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Did you expect this thread to have a positive conversation when you started it?
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Well at least respectful. I try to hope for the best.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Respectful?
  
  Most of the time respect is earned. Yes, respect can be given without being earned, but before one can respect anyone in any manner, they would first need to know you're being honest.
  
  Respect is never given to those who refuse to be honest.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  So do you not respect anyone until they earn it? Interesting.
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  calynbanaposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I am the opposite. I respect everyone until they lose it. Then I just respect their rights as humans and do not take their opinions quite as seriously.
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Cagsil I have to agree with you. I for one do not want anyone to think of me as bad. I just don't like to see anyone bashing someone because they think differently. I am a peace loving person (hence the term Hippie). I just want to see everyone get along. Alas, I know in this society it will take Hell freezing over for that to happen.
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  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good to know.
  Then I suggest a change in view? perception? Or better yet, just maybe you should try learning more than you have already. Just a thought.
  Bashing? Is a relative term and it's based on whether or not, one's perception is skewed.
  
  I'm sorry you don't realize that some beliefs are just beyond ridiculous. There are some beliefs that are so irrational that if left unchecked by the consciously active, would ruin the entire human species, as in make extinct.
  Good for you being a peace loving person. Just remember, your individual actions will speak many more volumes than those of your words.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for being honest and not being afraid to do so. Others in this same thread could learn a lot from you. Thanks again!
  
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah thank you calynbana. Good talking to you. Oh by the way Randy, FYI, I am from Missouri. LOL!!!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Missouri? Wow, I thought everyone there were Mormons!
  
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  Browergal68posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I guess we will just have to agree to disagree... LOL Peace!!!
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I certainly have no problem with that, Browergal.
  
  Cool avatar, by the way. Brings back fond memories. I'm still an old hippie!
  
  Respect!
  
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