It doesn't hurt to look into the other side of the fence
There was a subject discussing Jesus as being the Son of God. I thought sharing the other great religion's basics is a good thing.
In general, matters of spirituality are more like matters of love. The subject is usually the last one to know that their lover is not being faithful. That is why to engage reason in these matters is great importance. When Abraham was attempting to get his father out of idol worship, his father's major argument was that we found our fore fathers worshiping them and that's why we worship them.
ISLAM's basics:
1. Allah is the GOD whose pleasure Muslims aspire to attain. The word ALLAH is made up of two words; Al and Ilaah. Al = the and Ilaah = God. So Allah simply stands for The GOD.
2. Allah has no equals, has no kinship, has no friends and has no associates. Allah is simply complete and needs no one to complete any of his attributes.
3. He created men for one major purpose and that is Worship. Since the creation of Adam peace be upon him, He sent many many prophets including the big Names such as Muhammad and Jesus peace be upon them.
4. All sins are forgivable in Islam. The only unforgivable sin in Islam is when one dies an atheist or when one associates Allah with other creatures or things. In that sense, Christians that claims Jesus to have been the son of God are considered to be involved in major sinning, and if they die while embracing that belief, there is no hope for them in the hereafter. The Quran quotes Jesus in multiple places freeing himself from anyone who considered him the Son of God. On the day of Judgement, according to the Quran, Jesus will denounce those who considered him the Son of God.
5. Mohammad PBUH never said anything negative about Jesus and in fact Islam considers any disrespect to any of The GOD's messenger as a major sin.
6. The bible, as many historians proved, has been altered and most of what is in the bible was not necessarily cross checked by Jesus himself to confirm its content. In fact good chunk of the bible was written when Jesus was already raised to another domain.
7. The Quran, as 100 % of historians would ascertain, has maintained the same form since its revelation until this day. In fact, reproducing the Quran without proper authorization is illegal in all of the Muslim world. Furthermore, Muslims memorize the Quran word by word and alteration even of a single word would be noticed almost instantaneously.It seems then, that Allah may have erred in his/her creations because not everyone worships God/Allah. One would think that creating worshippers was not required for a God that is complete. Requiring worshippers also indicates an insecure God.
And requiring a god indicates insecure humans, so either way, a god needs a human, as much as a human needs a god
Lady,
that is the point. we have brains and consequently a choice.If u worship its fine and if u dont its fine. But when u abuse someone and the American government fails to punish u, Allah will rectify it later. Allah is there to ensure accountability, be it soon or late. Choice means results.What is the point? If we are created solely to worship Allah, then why would we be given the choice? It makes more sense that if Allahs sole purpose of creating man was to worship Allah, Allah would not give man the choice to worship or not worship. There would be only worship available as a choice. Since that is not so it makes no sense what you say?
If all sin is forgiveable barring atheism and relating Allah to other things, abusing another would fall under the category of a forgiveable sin. Whether America or other countries fail to punish whomever, why is their accountability important and why does it even come into play?
Can you tell I'm not getting it?The matter of accountability comes with the territory. Human brain is a blessing that needs to be used to distinguish clean from dirty and good from bad. Or else!!!
Why did the God create us and subject us to this accountability thing? In his own words : Blessed is He in whose hand is dominion, and He is over all things competent - [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -.....Then is one who walks fallen on his face better guided or one who walks erect on a straight path?
He wants us to live the straight path..and what is the straight path? that is the major debate, which book within which God has given us the elements of the straight path??? Quran, Bible, etc..
You have to choose whether you believe we are here to do what we want and get away with it or not. The child molester who gets away with it on earth, will he not be made to pay at some point?? do u really believe that?
Main question: Universe created or came about accidentally?
If created? Isnt the creator sensible enough to ensure that justice prevails?? If he is sensible enough, would he create us and let us live lawlessly?
The Quran is exactly equipped to answer this question and for intelligent people like you who might be more respectful of science, the Quran has in it what should appeal to scientific minds. A few examples to prove that it is the word of GOD.
Just keep an open mind and visit http://www.scienceinquran.com/
To remove all doubt that the Quran is the word of the all knowing just visit that website. From biology to astronomy to chemistry to sociology to.....
If the speed of light or the bigbang in a book which is more that 1400 years old doesnt convince you that it is from God, there is nothing we can do to get you to understand.
My regards..That is merely one of many Islamic propaganda websites created to distort and deceive.
No one cares what Islamic propaganda websites contain, they are all rubbish.So worship therefore is not the main purpose of being created? It is a major part of Allah's reason for creating but not the sole reason? It seems then, that we are Allah's imperfect creations that need to go through a perfecting process that include tests? It appears that we have the choice to do or not to do what is advocated in the Quran if we want to pass these tests? Following the instructions should result in being a perfect creation?
So what is the point? If Allah is complete and needs nothing, why the need to create imperfect creations to perfect? Is it just for fun or what?
I do not need to be convinced about God's role in creation. I am just curious what the Quran teaches.My lady,
The issue is not that of perfecting ourselves. We are born pure and we turn sour as we go through life. Allah's laws are supposed to block us from getting sour and to generally over hold justice.
As to why Allah would expose us to such test? well that is his prerogative. If you work for a company you have to adhere to the rules of that company. How then about adhering to the creator of it all!!
The Quran says: And don't forget your share of life. Islam is not intended to block people from living but to make people live in a certain way.
Sex is legal in a certain format
Running after possession is fine as long as it is within certain rules
Playing Tennis is fine as long as you don't play it naked
Swimming is fine
loving is fine
fighting is fine
All of the above are ok within certain parameters...
Lady, do not blame Allah. Tape recorders or CD players were not invented back then, and Allah didn't know about it. Had he known, he would have created that, instead of humans.
if there was a god and he needed to be worshiped, that would make him weak and there is no way i would worship something that needed to be worshiped.if allah was real, do you really think he would let people commit suicide in his name, well ok maybe a weak god would, my mistake. seriously though, allah is as much of a joke and myth as any of the other thousands of gods that are worshiped.
Yes, I think you're about the thousandth person to share Islamic basics here. It sure is fun reading the same stuff over and over and over...
How many of the useless staff do you repeat in your life every single day? for example how many times has your head been exposed to logic and sense but still it refuses to accept??
Listen mate, do not discount religious thoughts and hide under you words your belief that people who adhere to some religion are somehow simple minded.
I am willing to take you on to discuss the matter of God....Just start by telling me what is God to you?God does not exist.
And the ridiculous claims you made about science in your religious book are laughable.
Why don't you open your mind and look into some real science?I m sorry buddy but u seem confused. The issue is not whether ppl think there is God or not. I want u to tell me where u stand. Not Hollywood, not MTV, not conformity..... tell me where u stand wise man. Is it Jesus, Mohammad, Gandhi, ur classmate, or dumb and dumber? U must be believing in something... Troubled man, that goes for you too. Mark, you also sound pathetic...do u deny what the Quran says or its historical integrity? Be clear what u r up against.
LAWL
Wot a pathetic god innit? Need u 2 defend it.
No one is defending God nor is he in need of defending. In short = God created us including you = therefore he requires us to live by his rules = if we dont adhere he will make us pay at the time of his choosing. Now which part of that do you disagree with? What are you specifically routing for?
Simple Question for you: Is there a God?
If Yes what is your understanding of him or her?
If No what is it you believe in exactly?
Lets take it from there. We cannot start a fire before buying the stake."God created us including you "
Who told you that? Is god a potter to create?
" what is your understanding of him or her?"
The question is what is YOUR understanding of him or her?
" therefore he requires us to live by his rules"
How do YOU know what god wants?
" If No what is it you believe in exactly?"
Why should anybody 'believe'?If God can create a decent-looking creature like you, how hard is it for him to outline his requirements and send them to earth through some mechanism??
The problem with people like you is that you are so adhesive of your own way of thinking that indulging in the idea of God is somehow embracing to you. There are thousands of species in the universe and you would accept all of them if you saw them in some textbook but accepting one extra thing, GOD, is a taboo to you!!!
You seem to be a man of reason and logic, please just simply tell me what is you theory about life. How did it come about??Then first you have to answer two questions
1) What is God?
2) How do YOU know what god did, thought or want?
Another question, though pertaining to the debate we are having now, what is life?, you may answer later.
You ask " what is you theory about life"
I presume your theory is god gave it.
Sure, but you say someone has to give it, don't you?
If so, is god living? If yes, who gave life to god?
If no, you already have all the answers.Life GOD gave it.
God is living.
As to who gave life to GOD, I really don't care and my awareness at this point is too limited to attempt to imagine the origin of God nor do I want to know. What I know is this, the universe is running perfectly and most of my bodily and mental functions are automatic and all those lead me to believe in intelligent being. He sent books for me to know his expectations, simple as that.
Actually, there are millions of species on Earth, but there are no unicorns, leprechauns, cyclops or hydras, yet they all appear in books. Can you see Allah in a book?
All living things came about as a result of evolution.
Evolution is a fact, Allah is a fable.What does evolution mean??? give me an example of it???
So, you're here to tell us all about scientific facts and how the Quran revealed them hundreds of years before they were discovered and you don't even know what evolution means or what it's postulates?
Why doesn't the Quran reveal evolution to you? It is one of the most fundamental theories about all living things ever developed and spans all sciences, yet the Quran says nothing about it.
One would surely expect Allah to reveal evolution considering how important it is to our lives and how it connects together all other sciences.
Allah reveals that we are all made out of clay. Either Allah is lying or he doesn't know anything about evolution.
Which is it?Where did, exactly, this evolution thing happen?
"A prominent British imam has been forced to retract his claims that Islam is compatible with Darwin's theory of evolution after receiving death threats from fundamentalists.
"One man came up to me during the lecture and said 'You are an apostate and should be killed"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho … 32952.htmlSo - having looked at the other side of the fence and found nothing but ignorance and lies, perhaps you may understand why most educated people reject Islam?
Or not.
What's uneducated is to believe in a bogus theory like Evolution.
I don't need to believe those who adhere to propaganda are simple minded, they expose themselves as such all by themselves.
Looking back through history, we can see how all gods came about, yours included.
1. The simple, undeniable antiquity is: Islam is directly pagan to its core, regardless of its construct, end-goal {is there such a thing in any formula of theos?}, prophets and prose. If fact, the worship done by Abram's father, brothers, fellow citizens was to a deity called Allah or The God. Now, consider this carefully as we continue with your OP.
2. If The God has no equal, friends, associates and needs no one or no thing to be complete, why is it necessary for humans then to be associated, friends, acquainted with such a fulfilled entity? Your response to this seems to come at the next point: humans [apparently] were created to worship this deity who is complete, having nor needing any association, friends, etc.
3. This is a huge l e a p between thoughts. From Allah ou akbar, to humans created for worship, to prophets. I find it odd you mention prophets, because nearly all people I know have little understanding of the purpose of such an individual called a prophet and even less understanding of their linguistic mannerisms.
4. The unforgivable sin. Ironically, both Islam and Christianity share this exact mention. Although greatly watered down, the doctrines hold the belief that to die and having never believed in The God is resulted in eternal torment -which is a subject I will refrain from, temporarily. More so, I find it interesting Moshiach, the Hebrew Messiah is counted noteworthy among his brothers, the sons of Esau and their Messiah, Mohammad.
6-7. And this, dear readers, is the root of it. The worship of literature -of books! Both the sons of Jacob and Esau "serve" a God, who apparently has been busy writing down all his requirements for --what exactly? Anyway. Both sides are now worshiping a book -one called Bible the other Quran. both "memorize" and "quote" their texts as powerful and surely absolute. Much like a Harry Potter spell book that wields unlimited power in the hands of Muggles.
So, in conclude, there is this perfectly complete, friendless, unassociated, dis-syndicated [not able to be equaled] entity who created humans simply to worship It [although that is paradoxical in itself]. To assist in that worship added the measure of law/judgment/punishment for not worshiping -as outlined, memorized, quoted, etc in two variations of books, deemed holy, sacred, etc to the respective position. To further emphasize these books, sent messengers called prophets who spoke in a language and manner no one can truly interpret [like the Upanishads] that everyone should adhere to, less they die, found not believing or believing, but not enough, else believing but not memorized chapter and verse, and therefore face everlasting wrath, the likes of which Dante's Inferno would be a day at the beach....
...good grief. do you now understand why Reason has failed. Why humanism has failed? If both sides -pro or con- recall correctly, what started all the trouble, with Adam? What was that "thing" he did causing dissimulation from his true nature and the Ineffable Everything?
James.Generally speaking, yes. There are many similarities between them, although the canonical bible has much more in the way of historical details, prophets and prose. The Quran is primarily a book of rules, as the Pentateuch is. Moshe and Mohammad, in many respects, are equal, although the later is also placed in the hierarchy of prophet and savior, comparison to Moshiach. The greatest similarity is actually nonliterary : a human imposed necessity of study, memorization. Again, much like the Hebrews placing bits of text in a box, worn between the eyes, wrapped around the arm, or learned and quoted a will, as if either had/s any power to enable the individual to adhere to all the rules, concepts within. It is truly the most oppressive of techniques for control, simply because no person has ever been able to remember every word. The common "fate" shared by Islam and Christianity is eternal torment, for having failed to worship, via the text and memorial expression, the God, as well as afterlife beliefs, of which Judaism [true Judaism] does not share in. Both Islam and Christianity also believe in demons, evil spirits, etc.
James.
PS, I have missed our conversations. It is very good it 'see' you, again.Awww I missed this PS! So have I! Very good to see you always!
James,
Whether the idea of God is a dogma or otherwise is fully dependent on your level of awareness. If you discount God as a Dogma, you need to provide me with alternative to creation, what brought about life?
Like I said, having required us to live a certain way is his choice and nor does it make God in need of associates or friends.
Prophet, messenger, Warner...it is an easy concept. It is simply the people God gave a message to deliver to a group of people, why is that difficult to understand?
Stand corrected: there is no original sin in Islam. Quite to the contrary, we are born clean.
You either obtuse or pretending to be. No one is worshiping a book. I worship Allah, the book is merely telling me the rules of the Game as per Allah. The US constitution outline rules of the game for running America. The Quran outlines rules for running life itself.
Again you are wrong. Their languages were understood. Most of the crap in your head has been translated from other languages hasn't it? Most of you republic ideas come from translated knowledge and most of your science too. If you are a man of logic try to be logical.
Yes Adam screwed up and later was forgiven after repenting and adhering. You too can be forgiven if you choose to.
Listen my friend you made a lot of malerky and you want it to sound intelligent but it remains malerky.
My position is this...My brain, heart, face, billions of cells did not come about accidentally. The being who made it happen made rules for me to live by because he knows in life there are bastards who will unjustly have their way in life. Due to that he has promised to deliver justice at some point. Because there is a point of reckoning, he made sure we understand his expectations of us in great detail.
Now what is your philosophy?? Really what is your philosophy?? If you are not confused make you stance clear.What a sad philosophy. Instead of changing the way we live - put up with crap and there will be a judgment after death?
You have been duped.
We already know how your body came to be as it is. Evolution "created" you.
How arrogant to think it was created on purpose.
Prove it. Show me this being who makes rules for you to live by that tell you not to change the rulers hold over you.Mark,
I love your illustrative photos and that is what I have been trying to educate you all along. The massiveness and the organization of the whole thing mean only one thing. There is a creator that some of us call THE GOD. ALLAH.
To quote your illustration : When a person is determined to believe something, the very absurdity of the doctrine confirms them in their faith.
You want to believe that it is all accidental and there after one cell organism and bacterias appeared then they mutated to monkeys and you know the rest of the garbage that you chose to believe in.
Sorry mate, talking to you seems endless. Your very brain proves something that you are hard at denying.Sorry mate, you are not here to talk, but preach. Your very sentence proves something that you are hard at denying
THERE IS NO GOD BUT ALLAH AND MOHAMMAD IS HIS LAST MESSENGER
Say those words and become one of the saved if you will follow them by good deeds. The constitution is the Quran.
Listen buddy. The last decade has proven that the last man-made doctrine that many hopes were placed on has proven to be insufficient. We have tried dictatorship, communism, ..... and finally capitalism but they are all clearly inadequate. It is about time we listen to the one who can subscribe something that covers all angels. Relationships, economy, politics, etc....
Trial and error has landed us in a terrible place. Time to listen to the MASTER ENGINEER. ALLAH.Muhammad was a fraud. He created Allah as a result of the cruelty of those merchants who got rich in Mecca by receiving the many gods of surrounding tribes.
We have tried dictatorship, communism.....
So why not try one more nonsense? Interesting question, but why simply open the psychotic cell of the hospital and let them out with guns? If suicide is the intention, there are better ways.
Last messenger? It was that Ahamadiya Muslim fellow.Riddle,
My appologies but you need to know what you are talking about. A good amount of Christians are homosexuals, does the bible condone it.
Do not confuse Islam with Muslims as I guarantee you there are loads of rogue Muslims.The sharia might have been good for those who lived ten or twenty century before, but not fit today.
Second, you says all intelligent beings need to be created and then say Allah is different, that is either you are contradicting yourself or there is someone greater than Allah or both.
It is good that you(Quran) choose a word with three meanings, but an embryo is not like leech, a parasite may be but not leach. It is not suspended either, it floats and the walls are buried.Then it doesn't look like clot either, it look like a piglet or a white rat(new born-pinkish white) by color and anyone can differentiate it from a blood clot. But if you look at an aborted fetus you might be getting a clot(that is there is only clots and only a trained eye can find the embryo, sometimes only with the help of a microscope). It might have helped muhammad that the people of that time thought humans formed from blood clot. It has nothing to do with chewed substance unless you chew it like to look like embryo and other descriptions are not even close.
There is no Allah just as there is no Yahweh/Jesus. By the way there was nobody called Jesus either as described in bible, so the copy of biblical Quran is even worse
I have said this a thousand times to Christians, Muslims, even Hebrews, Atheists and more. The term or idea called G/god is pagan. Period. Islam is extremely pagan at its core and its practices, traditions line up perfectly -as does Christianity, etc. So, please, get off your typical theistic high horse and pay attention.
A god is a man made idea or entity. The Ineffable Everything was not created that [He] can be titled "Yahweh, Allah, etc". Do you understand now? Now, if you, and billions more, actually applied what it is you believed -or read like morbid monkeys in front of stone statues, walls of forgotten temples or faces in the dirt- you might come to realize that you [plural] are the perfect expression of the Ineffable Everything. What separates you -as Adam was separated- from your true nature, that immortal connection to Creator and [His] creation, causes you to age and die is: EGO. Ego is Reason. Reason, "my friend" is your enemy. Man has reasoned in himself and make up gods to worship -which is nothing less than mental masturbation, to cover his nakedness.
There was never any rules, which is the point you keep missing. Rules imply fear; fear implies reason {right-wrong; good-evil} which means there is a massive divide between humans and their maker. A creation designed with all the information of this world -and probably words away- to enjoy, manage and appreciate.
It is useless. Messengers which warned of worshiping their message. Messengers who spoke because you are dull of hearing. Not one of you religious or anti-religious pay attention to that. Instead, you hiss, shout, gnash teeth and war against each other to see who's ego is greater. Fools!
Yes, I know this. Judaism is the same. All are born clean, that is above reason. Sin comes when Wisdom {philos} is divided. That is what sin is: dividing understanding -just as Adam did.
So apparently, Allah is too inept to speak to you himself -like the Christians- so [He] chose to have all humans worship words in books like Quran, Torah, Bible, Scientific America, Cosmo? Right, that makes so much more sense -not! And it is worship -100%. Worship means to put in front of ones eyes, meditate on it day/night, etc. You, like the others put the book between you and He, to hide your nakedness.
Really? Hmm, I wonder how you would know that. Are you are seer, a muse a prophet? lol. But yes, it is clearly difficult for the illogical to see logic, since you need religion of equation {science} and sensation {titled:religion} in order to think for yourself -and books to read, memorize, quote,constitute and abide by at all costs. I highly doubt you would understand logic if it hit you in the head -shoe or no shoe. Logic is void of reason, "my friend". When you figure that out, we'll have that conversation.
Talk about malarkey. I will tell you what I tell the Atheists, Scientists, Christians, Hebrews, Mormon, Buddhists, Muslims, and the rest of the pagans: Unless you give up all these ridiculous ideologies of good-evil, judgment, demons, gods, to accept you are the immortal reflection of the Creator and allow him to bridge the divide caused by your ego, you will die. Period. No afterlife, no heaven "up there" or "hell down there". You will seize to exist, like millions before you. You cannot be "enlightened" by artificial light, nor by keeping your eyes closed when the light shines. No matter how blinding or painful, open them. It is going to hurt, a lot. But, when your eyes adjust to purity -which is understanding- everything illuminates and is understood. Everything is restored to your memory. The amnesia is healed, the Adamic Rift sewn shut and eternal life consumes you.
Any questions?
JamesShow me. Like you promised. Because you sound exactly the same as the other religionists.
Genuinely asking - no BS. Show me.Hey Mark,
In kind, I just feel it necessary to remind you {no pun intended} that I do not need to show you. It is kind of redundant to even ask for show-n-tell, since you already know this and can show it yourself, just like I can and every other human being. We are not dissimilar -save a few outward appearances. Show-n-tell is for the religious, and part of the problem with humans in general {which explains why science and sensation still exist after x-thousand years}.
If my words over these two years and you, yourself are not enough proof of this, not even a "chariot from heaven" will be proof enough.
JamesYeah - no offense, but you sound just like all the other religionists who got the answer by majik. Nothing you have said has lead me to believe you have any answers.
Weird you claimed to be able to show me and offered to do so. Now I need to take your word for it?
Fact is - you come across as deeply rooted in the here and now/sensation/reality/worldly/taste/preaching. If you didn't - I might be moire inclined to listen, but your obvious frustration with no one accepting your truth to be the only truth says a a lot.James, Mark,
my truth says everything my eyes can see and my senses can sense or my telescopes can move near did not happen by accident.
Your truth says it is all accidental. You are so invested in your truth that one of your eyes is wide shut and the second one is headed the same direction.
If I can not pass you through that ignorance, there is nothing more I can tell you to help you. First, you have to let go of your dogma that it was all magical. Then we can talk.
If you simply take an hour or two and check the science within the book from God, then you will know that the book is indeed from GOD. Big Bang, biology, chemistry, medicine, etc.....Thereafter, you can look at principles outlined to govern human life and compare it to the thousands of human made doctrines that have always ended with failure. If you are so hard headed that even looking the other side frightens you, I will have to let you live your fantasies.
James, you seem to be a well read guy...read the quran for yourself as it appears that most of the rhetoric you are giving is picked up from some other person, do it yourself. Check out just the scientific facts within the Quran. Ask yourself how the hell did Mohammad know about the Big bang? How did he know about the making of a baby in the womb, from inception to delivery? How the hell did he know about the processes involved in rain? How would he have known that the earth is round and is going around the sun? How did he dream up about gravity? how did he guess that the higher we go the higher the pressure?? How did he know that one day humans will make rockets to go into space? How, how and how did he know?
You are a man of science, look into all the scientific facts within the Quran and see whether it is statistically possible to accurately guess all those facts.
By the way, if you doubt the historical integrity of the Quran. There is a 1200 year old copy in a museum in Toronto. It is singing the same wisdom's using the same words the newest copies do. So what you find in any Quran copy is truly Mohammad's.I am not a man of science nor sensation. So, again, pay attention. Science and sensation are THE SAME, just two expressions of one IDENTICAL thing: Ego. You have missed my explanation completely, then called it rhetoric.
So, I reiterate, fools! Let go of Reason. Allow Logic {Wisdom, Philos, Understanding} to heal the divide.
There is no difference between Ba`al and Big Bang; Quran and Scientific America. They are expressions of one identical thing: Ego -the adversary [ ha-satan in Aramaic ]. You ask how did this or that know? The information was genetically put there by humanities maker, so man would not be as inept, as he seems to think he is, dividing the beautiful strands of light in him; becoming a slave to the processor called the mind. Sure, humans "picked up" on certain information like gravity or quantum or healing. These are just little pieces of the bigger whole. These pieces are Reason. Reason is the adversary, the enemy -your enemy.
James."Humanities maker"!
James,
You are learning finally.
Muhammad knew nothing of those concepts and none of them appear in the Quran. If he did and they did appear in the Quran, the world would have known about them centuries before they were actually discovered.
Troubled man,
They say that when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. Please visit the Quran, understand the language and see the miracle that is the Quran. The revelations of those scientific facts within the Quran was never meant to give advantage to Arab speaking humans and so they came in a manner that no one will fathom them before they are discovered. The intention was not to give the ARabs an unfair scientific edge but these verses were meant to talk to hard headed people. That is actually another proof the book is from GOD.There are no scientific facts in your majik book - sorry. In hindsight, you can "interpret" them to mean something other than the words that are actually written, but that is about all. The Christians do the same thing.
The fact that your majik books says an embryonic child looks like a "chewed substance," is not convincing anyone of anything. No offense, but - when we speak of "making an ass of yourself," this is as good an example as any.
Such as, assuming Muhammad knew anything about those things or that they appear in the Quran?
The Quran is not a miracle, it's just another holy book.
Sorry, there are no scientific facts in the Quran. None.
That is not proof of anything. You are only making assumptions. See your first line of your post in regards to assumptions.In science, we explain. Only the dogmatic fools demand evidence, Troub
Quran is more scientific than the bogus theory of evolution or big bang.Thanks Marie (aka A Troubled Man)
http://mariexotoni.hubpages.com/
'
This is wishful thinking on your part. What you mean is you need there to be a purpose for everything to exist and you have a majik book that tells you you will live forever if you swallow the blue pill. How arrogant of you to think you are special.
The rest of your reply is not worth responding to. Sorry - I don't swallow religious dogma.Mark,
I am sorry but your denial is pathological.
Excellent. We are finally making some progress then. You are letting go of belief and disbelief it seems.
To take my word for it, is no different than believing me. As said before, that is religious. I do not want you to believe nor disbelieve me. What I can show you is already in you to know. So, once more, show-n-tell is futile if you need to see or not-see to believe or disbelieve.
Again, as said many times, my words here are a language you and most others understand. It would be rude to speak to you in a language you do not know to explains the things you do. Simple. No frustration, no necessity, no agenda.I never held on to them. Sorry. That was you telling me what I do because I rib the religious. Far as I am concerned, the term "atheist" does not exist other than when speaking to "theists." And - you are an athiest also.
You definitely come off as frustrated.
You do have a language that could explain it, but - as I said - you don't come across as any different to all the other religionists. Most of them say they don't have a religion either.> "Do not they not see that the heavens and the Earth
were once one mass, then We rent them apart?"
(Qur'an 21:30) .......................BIG BANG
>"and the heavens we created with might (power) and
we are expanding it."
(Qur'an 51:47) .................................. Universe expanding
>That Day We will fold up heaven like folding up the
pages of a book. As We originated the first creation so
We will regenerate it. It is a promise binding on Us.
That is what We will do.
(Qur'an 21:104)................ Bringing back the pieces in the universe to the center
>“And we have made the earth egg shaped”.
(lit.trans: ostrich egg)
(Qur’an 79:30)...........Shape of the globe
> “And verily in cattle there is a lesson for you.
We give you to drink of what is inside their bodies,
coming from a conjunction between the contents of the
intestine and the blood, a milk pure and pleasant for
those who drink it.”
(Qur’an 16:66) ..................The making of milk
>“Does man think that We cannot assemble his bones?
Nay, We are able to put together in perfect order
the very tips of his fingers.”
(Qur’an 75:3-4).....Not only bones even finger tips
Those are just a drop in the ocean of what the Quran contains of scientific truths. For more http://www.freewebs.com/proofofislam/sc … equran.htm
James, Jacharles, Mark, Ridlle.....
You only have few years to realize the truth and adhere. Open your minds, wake up from hypnosis and face the facts.
CheersAt least you admit your majikal super being did not create the Universe. Who Created the singularity in teh first place?
Even funnier. The heavens is space now I assume?
Pages of a book? Lost me - are you suggesting your majikal super being will fold the Universe at some point?
Ummm - no. Sorry. At best - "orange shaped" might have worked.
Congrats - they knew about milk. But - not where it comes from apparently.
Meaningless. Sorry.
Sorry. Not impressed at all. I mean - your majikal super being doesn't even know what shape the earth is.
Still - it did raise an interesting question. Seeing as you agree your super being did not form the singularity that started the big bang, and instead started it expanding (a stretch) - who did?
What will your super being do to me if I continue to not believe fairy tails?I am sure Mark, you can not refute what scientists have not. To date, no single scientist has found disagreement between scientific facts in the Quran and what modern science has discovered. At first you sounded really intelligent and now you sound too literal and shallow.
The science within the Quran was designed to specifically speak to hardened people like yourself. If you choose to close your eyes on what is apparent, nothing can be done for you.
You have encapsulated yourself in certain understandings and it seems to difficult for you to part with those understandings. I sympathize with anyone whose understanding is so drastically challenged, there must be some shock involved, that I can understand. What I cant understand is when intelligent people fail to be intelligent in favor of not changing the picture they are used to.
Denial is just a river in Mexico.Ah - personal slurs. Well done.
There is nothing to refute. This is an ostrich egg:
This is the earth:
See how they are not the same shape.
Mark,
I think the idea of giving Islam benefit of the doubt and look into it is made hard for you because you simply don't believe that some Arab guy 1400 years ago in some desert village can tell you what is is really all about. I am sorry mate, God chose him and had he chosen an American liberal to deliver the message and the message was as self evident as the Quran, I would believe. I would use my brain rather that my denials.That is not true. Your arguments do not make any sense. Sorry. If they did and if Islam had anything to offer - I would believe. Sadly - I don't see that Islam has anything to offer. I don't like your morals; I don't like your attitude to women; I don't like the war mongering; I don't react well to being spoken to in the fashion you speak to me. I am not "in denial." I simply reject your lies. There is no science in the majik book and to suggest that there is and I am just denying obvious truth is insulting my intelligence.
I am using my brain and common sense.
Mark,
You are right, I stand corrected, they are poles not polls. That is how reasonable we should all be when wrong accept new truths and get elevated.
As far as the shape of the earth is concerned, when one wants to illustrate something as an example it means exactly that, an example, to indicate similarity. In this sense an egg is the best example to illustrate the shape of the earth. One would say to someone who never seen a lion but saw a cat, they would say it looks like a cat.
With all the science in the Quran, you only found earth shape to be the most important!!!
You say
"I don't see that Islam has anything to offer. I don't like your morals; I don't like your attitude to women; I don't like the war mongering; I don't react well to being spoken to in the fashion you speak to me".
Sorry i missed the above reply of yours. A challenge for you, explain to me what you don't like about the above as it relates to Islam. This is what I wanna talk to you about...you tell me what you dont like about it as it relates to it being the way of living. Here is where most of the misconception about Islam lies. This where there is great room to educate you.No - you are wrong. The earth is an oblate spheroid. Nothing like the shape of an egg. A more apt simile would be an orange. Therefore your book has the shape wrong - therefore - by your logic - it is a worthless book. I showed you all the other science was a lie also - you are the one fixated on the shape of the earth.
What does it mean that the Quran got the shape wrong in that case?
I don't like liars and - the Quran says lying is acceptable. Sorry - morally not acceptable to me.
Few years until what? Open my mind to what exactly?
By The Way, quoting Quran is like quoting the Bible, Shakespeare or Fox News, means nothing to me. But I am curious of one thing: In nearly all your quotes it uses the word "We" or "Us". Who is that We/Us speaking?We...US..... God is talking about himself. This is practical artistry of the Quran, We, US, is simply God in his magnificence. People say I but God can say I, me, we, us because he is everything and above all things. All the sciences I displayed to you did not catch your attention but the word format did!!! Shakespeare was not interested in science, Quran is.......
I commend you though, you at least read a few lines from the Quran.
Mark,
Ever heard North and South polls. Would you have polls on something that was perfect round? Don't parrotically repeat what others say, think for yourselves people.They are called "poles," and - I never said the earth was perfectly round. I said it was not egg shaped. It is an oblate spheroid and a more apt simile would have been "orange shaped."
It might help our discourse if you stopped insulting me and actually took the trouble to read what I wrote.
Nevertheless - the point I made is that your book got the shape wrong. According to your logic - that makes the book worthless.Assuming you mean poles - then yes you would have them on a perfectly round body, they are the ends of the axis around which the world is spinning - whether it is round or egg shaped or as it actually is - orange shaped.
and skipping to another comment - don't you mean denial is a river in Egypt ?But, that is exactly what you're doing, parroting other Islamic propagandists of which none are thinking, let alone for themselves.
Yes, the word format above all interests me, as a writer and philologist.
Sorry to spoil the salvation battle between Islam & Christianity and "practicality" of the books both sides worship, but the Quran, like the Bible (or even The Hobbit), can be a literal expressive. More so because of human ego are non sequitur, inadequate, to bring about what they claim to be true, rather than being truly applicable. If they were as the latter, religions of both science and sensation would no longer exist because practical application of any of them voids their very necessity to exist, impose rules {doctrine} and make claims of fact -to satisfy just one thing: Reason. And what did we identify is Reason? Correct. Understanding {Wisdom, Philos, Truth} that is divided and frayed like a ball of yarn, within the tool, the processor of light, called the human mind. What enabled Reason from the beginning? correct again, Ego - ha satan in Aramaic...
James.
James,
There you have it "the word from above all". Otherwise you would have paid attention to a book that has beaten Einstein, Galileo and indeed Newton in scientific discoveries.
The Quran did not come to preach science, it came to ordain a way of living. Science in the Book was only intended to keep skeptical people like yourself interested and indeed to remove doubts from hard heads.
As a writer you must know how hard it is to change people's perspectives in matters of faith and emotions such as love. Unfortunately, it would appear, that your faith of not believing has gotten the best of you.
And James, forget other books in this discussion, I am only interested in the Quran as far as this conversation is concerned.
What enabled Reason from the beginning? The one who created the brain did give those faculties to it.Beaten? lol. How can the ideas of one man be greater than another? A war of books?! Your ignorance is evident. Which is precisely the problem, not the solution. You, by your own admission, state a bleeding lack of logic; a necessity for rules -rules to ordain life. And it goes deeper...I think you have misunderstood me. I am not a skeptic, nor an atheist, nor theist. True, words interest me, because my fellow humans interest me -and obviously one of their strongest expressions are words.
Now you move to faith? You do not understand faith. You believe because the words make sense to your weakness for reason. Faith is a practical action that can only be experienced by a person void of Reason, else it is an ego-driven pursuit to continue believing or disbelieving in a set of ideas. Myself, neither believes nor disbelieves. To believe or disbelieve is called Duality -right/wrong; good-evil; yes-no. Reason was enabled by Ego, not by itself. Reason or the thoughts within the mind are designed as part of the great processor. Man's failure is submitting to the processor of thoughts, submitting to Reason, dividing Wisdom forming good-evil; right-wrong; yes-no. Do you understand now?
James
James what exactly are you saying?
Discard the Idea of God, Allah, etc. and substitute it for the Idea of 'ineffable Everything'?
If I were to understand you, then isn't that understanding merely another Idea...
And Idea that is merely created by yourself?
Or Are you saying discard Ideas completely?
but how does one do that, with out first forming an idea.
What/who is this 'Pagan' ?
Why is it you make the the things that comes from the 'Pagan' not good (evil)?
Are you not indulging is the same good /evil conundrum that you are saying man should shun?
How come James , That Logics is void of reason?
Is n't so that Logic can only be seen through reason?
As in show me the reason and I can follow the logic...
Where the reason is disguised Logics is scrambled.
If you want to be understood, you must offer Logic based on reason.
Otherwise I can ask you why are you here ? why do you write?
You have a reason therfore the logic fall into place.
Otherwise you offering men a burden that you yourself cannot budge.
ExplainMark, James, Riddle...
Please open your minds, life is truly short to live in the dark..
In the Holy Quran, God speaks about the stages of man's embryonic development, 1,400 years before modern day scientists 'discovered' important information on creation of man and his development:
We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an alaqah (leech, suspended thing, and blood clot), then We made the alaqah into a mudghah (chewed-like substance)...
[Noble Quran 23:12-14]
Literally the Arabic word alaqah has 3 meanings:
leech
suspended thing
blood clot
1. "In comparing a leech to the embryo at the alaqah stage, we find similarity between the two."
[The Developing Human p.8]
.
"Also, the embryo as this stage obtains nourishment from the blood of the mother, similar to the leech which feeds on the blood of others."
[Human Development as Described in Quran and Sunnah p.36]
.
2. The second meaning of the word alaqah is 'suspended thing'. The suspension of the embryo, during the alaqah stage, in the womb of the mother very appropriately fits this description.
3. The third meaning of the word alaqah is 'blood clot'. We find that the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs during the alaqah stage is similar to that of a blood clot. This is due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo during this stage. Also during this stage the blood in the embryo does not circulate until the end of the third week. So the embryo at this stage is like a clot of blood.
By examining a diagram of the primitive cardiovascular system in an embryo during the alaqah stage we would notice the external appearance of the embryo and its sacs is similar to that of a blood clot due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood present in the embryo
[The Developing Human, p. 65]
So the three meanings of the word alaqah correspond accurately to the descriptions of the embryo at the alaqah stage.
The next stage mentioned in the verse is the mudghah stage. The Arabic word mudghah means "chewed-like substance." If one were to take a piece of gum and chew it in his mouth, and then compare it with the embryo at the mudghah stage, we would conclude that they would be almost identical because of the somites at the back of the embryo that 'somewhat resemble teeth marks in a chewed substance.'
How could Muhammad (peace be upon him) have possibly known all this 1,400 years ago when scientists have only recently discovered this using advanced equipment and powerful microscopes which did not exist at that time? Hamm and Leeuwenhoek were the first scientists to observe human sperm cells using an improved microscope in 1677 A.D. (more than 1,000 years after Muhammad, peace be upon him]. They mistakenly thought that the sperm cell contained a miniature preformed human being that grew when it was deposited in the female genital tract
[The Developing Human, p.9]
Professor Keith Moore is one of the world's prominent scientists in the fields of anatomy and embryology and is the author of the book entitled the "Developing Human", which has been translated into eight languages. This book is considered a scientific reference work and was chosen by a special committee in the United States as the best book authored by on person. Dr. Keith Moore is a Professor of Anatomy and Cell Biology at the University of Toronto, Toronto, Canada. In 1984, he received the most distinguished award presented in the field of anatomy in Canada, the J.C.B. Grant Award from the Canadian Association of Anatomists. He has directed many international associations, such as the Canadian and American Association of Anatomists and the Council of the Union of Biological Sciences.
In 1981, during the Seventh Medical Conference in Dammam, Saudi Arabia, Professor Moore said; "It has been a great pleasure for me to help clarify statements in the Quran about human development. It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God, or Allah, because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until many centuries later. This proves to me that Muhammad must have been the messenger of God, or Allah [The reference for this statement is on 'This is the Truth' (video tape). For a copy of this video tape please contact us].
Consequently, Professor Moore was asked the following question, "Does this mean that you believe that the Quran is the Word of God?" He replied; "I find no difficulty in accepting this."
During one conference, Professor Moore stated, "... because the stagein of human embryos is complex, owing to the continuous process of change during development, it is proposed that a new system of classification could be developed using the terms mentioned in the Quran and the Sunnah (sayings of Muhammad, peace be upon him). The proposed system is simple, comprehensive, and conforms with present embryological knowledge. The intensive studies of the Quran and Hadith (reliably transmitted sayings and reports of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him) in the last four years have revealed a system of classifying human embryos that is amazing since it was recorded in the 7th century A.D. Although Eric Statle, the founder of the science of embryology, realized that chick embryos developed in stages from his studies of hen's eggs in the fourth century B.C., he did not give any details about these stages. As far as it is known from the history of embryology, little was known about the stagein and classification of human embryos until the twentieth century. For this reason, the descriptions of the human embryo in the Quran cannot be based on scientific knowledge in the 7th century A.D. The only reasonable conclusion is that these descriptions were revealed to Muhammad from God. He could not have known such details because he was an illiterate man with absolutely no scientific training." [This is the Truth -video tape]
Think about the humans. How did we all get here? What is the nature of mankind? What causes us to act as we do? Are we ungrateful to the One who created us and sustains us? What is this clue? Think about yourself. Did you create yourself?James, Mark, Riddle..
Please check this out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2s14T6x5AM
My RegardsI have watched it before. He is living proof that religion rots your brain and causes nothing but conflict. He has as much understanding as my shoe.
Regards back at you.Yes Mark,
Talking is free but thinking costs a bit more. YOU SIMPLY DON'T WANT TO THINK. Nothing I can do for you. I just feel sorry at the way you have shut your brain to certain things.Dear me. No wonder your religion causes so many fights.
You have said nothing that makes any sense. All you are doing is defending your ridiculous belief in majik. As for the war monger in the video........
You already persuaded me the Qur'an is nonsense by showing me it got the shape of the earth wrong. Thanks for MAKING ME THINK.
I mean - if the Qu'ran doesn't even know what shape the earth is - that proves your beliefs are nonsense - yes?"Their similitude is that of a man who kindled a fire; when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in utter darkness. So they could not see.....Deaf, dumb, and blind, they will not return (to the path)."
Quran Chapter 2 Verse 17-18
My case is rested.If you say so. I guess quoting nonsense from your book is certainly easier than having a genuine conversation.
Earth = not Egg shaped.
I can't believe this guy calls himself a doctor. He has no clue.
You are free to delete. In the USA, we have freedom of deletion, and freedom of relocation. If you exercise them properly, they build muscles.
- Logicofhappinessposted 11 years ago
0I enjoyed reading about this alot.
I find myself at this current time in my life, not searching for a religion, but attempting to learn and understand them, so when the time comes, i can say i have an educated background on all of them.
And this has seemed to make it really easy to understand and respect Islam.
Thankyou
I am thinking that we have only one God. We are travelling in the same direction toward heaven and we are just sailing different kinds of ships.
We must be careful if we want to follow Jesus' teachings. Some teachings are fooling us. A good tree do bear good fruit. Therefore, good results of teachings are from God.So imagine an infidel at his judgement seat.
Allah: "You did not worship me so it's a good roasting for you young fella me lad".
Infidel: "You didn't need my worship, why you so upset?"
Allah: "I'm not upset because I am complete."
Infidel: "So if you are not upset, why are you going to set me on fire?"
Allah: "Because you did not worship me."
Infidel: "But you didn't need my worship. Am I'm missing something here?"
Allah: "Yes you are. I wanted you to worship me. I wanted you to acknowledge that I am great and am fully complete, needing no friends.....not even you."
Infidel: "Eh? Why did you want me to worship if you did not need it. Is this some kind of ego trip here?"
Allah: "No I'm just great."
Infidel: "Let me get this straight; you are so great and you created a race of beings for the sole purpose of telling you how great you are?"
Allah: "Yes, I wanted you to tell me I'm great, because I am, but it's not an ego thing, because that would be pride which would be sin."
Infidel: "So if I was to tell you that you are great and worship you, you would feel good about yourself."
Allah: "No, I am all complete, I feel good about myself and have no need for your worship to make me feel good about myself."
Infidel: "I'm utterly lost now. Just tell me exactly why you wanted me to worship you?"
Allah: "Because I am great, and I made you to tell me I'm great five times a day."
Infidel: "But why?"
Allah: "Because I like it. Seeing all you people telling me I'm great five times a day makes me feel good.....err no that's not right because I'm complete and don't need your worship to feel good. Hmmm".
Infidel: "So what's the answer then?"
Allah: "Because I said so."
Infidel: "Ahh my worship is completely pointless then?"
Allah: "No it was a test. A test to see if you would do what I told you. You didn't so now I'm going to set you on fire."
Infidel: "So the whole purpose of creating us was so that you could test which ones would do as you told them to give you worship that you don't actually need, or want to make you feel good, because you are all complete."
Allah: "Yes that's it in a nutshell."
Infidel: "So it's a fear based religion then."
Allah: "Well there's no need to fear if you do what you are told."
Infidel: "Mmm told do something as part of a pointless test. Wouldn't you prefer it if people found joy in their worship? Look at the Christians; they sing happy clappy songs, pogo in the aisles, smile and laugh a lot. At least they might actually gain something?"
Allah: "Joy has nothing to do with it. You must have noticed that there is no humour in Islam. Worship is not about you lot enjoying yourself, it's all about me and you doing what you are told."
Infidel: "So you find no joy in worship either?"
Allah: "I have no need of joy, I am all complete."
Infidel: "So what's the point?"
Allah: "The point is this. I did not create you so that you could enjoy yourselves. That's why Islam seeks to forbid anything that might make you happy such as beer, wine, dancing, popular music, boys meeting girls, going to the movies, bacon sandwiches. The only point of your existence is to tell me I'm great and if you don't five times a day, you failed. I don't need you to tell me I'm great, I know I'm great. You failed, you're toast."
Infidel: "There's no why is there!"
Allah: "Yours is not to reason why, you were not made to think, you were made to do, and that is to give me what I don't need. It all comes down to because I said so."
Infidel: "Nobody told me?"
Allah: "Yes I did, I told you through my prophet Muhammed PBUH."
Infidel: "And I was supposed to believe him, just take him at his word, with no evidence that you ever spoke to him in the first place?"
Allah: "Yes, because he said so."
Infidel "Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh!"
Allah: "Gabriel, pass me those matches will you."
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