One Palestinian killed, 10 wounded, among them 5 CHILDREN!
Happy Hanukkah!
Merry Christmas!
Happy Kwanzaa!
and a Happy New Year!Is there anyone to wish in a phonetical arabic or persian a merry christmas to the community?
ajmil at-tihānī bimunāsabah al-mīlād wa ḥilūl as-sanah al-jadīdah
(Merry Christmas and Happy New)
Max, as you are a champion of stupid questions, so you may ask them... And my answer to this one will be: "It's none of your business"
Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all sides, and bring them to their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel... And the desolate land shall be tilled... And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the Garden of Eden.
The question is what were they doing anywhere but in their so-called country? Easy they were wandering because they did NOT possess a land. Which other people are in the same predicament? None. You are an exception. Homeless. Landless.
Actually, the Jews just never attacked and conquered lands in the middle ages the same way that the muslims did. There were no muslim lands until the muslims starting conquering and converting nations. Mohamed converted a handful of folks in Mecca with politics, etc., but thousands elsewhere with warfare and the like.
@Wavegirl, maybe someday you'll understand that extremism is not exclusive to the Palestinians. I think saying that all Palestinians are evil and such be struck down by a plague is pretty lousy thing to say, too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLb_AmCi_4E
But there again, I would never to try to defend or justify war crimes, war criminals or any form of extremism.Nice try. of course this video comes from the "Liberation for Palestine".
Now show me something that the Israeli's has put on TV for all to see that calls for the death of all Palestinians.
The Israelis unlike Hamas DO NOT TEACH HATE, nor do they call for suicide bombers or do they aim rockets for the intention of killing innocent people.I'm not trying anything, what, exactly, do you mean by that? I suppose putting hate speech on TV is far worse than spewing it elsewhere? Still, it made TV anyway. As you appear not to like Press TV, try this one- Sky News.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_1ds7qG_tcShow me the same type of message that the Israelis out on TV. Show me some of their hate speech. Show me an example where the Israelis teach hate towards the Palestinians and where they teach them how to be suicide bombers.
And where and what TV did this make it on? Is Sky News Israeli. The link you supplied was posted by Soupaman219. Not exactly an authority on this conflict. His last video he uploaded to his account was "Trippy Patterns"What this RABBI says IS hate speech, and is he not Israeli? Not only was he teaching hate he was preaching it. I absolutely acknowledge that not all Israelis would say such a thing, but the proof is there- he said it.
It doesn't matter who uploaded the video- it's from Sky News, Israeli no, Pro Israel, yes.Before you make such statements maybe it would be wise to understand the source you are presenting.
In 2001 Yosef was quoted as calling for the annihilation of Arabs, instructing his followers that "It is forbidden to be merciful to them. You must send missiles to them and annihilate them. They are evil and damnable." Yosef later said that his sermon was misquoted, that he was referring to annihilation of Islamic terrorism and not of all Arabs. He called for improving the living conditions of the Arab people in Israel, and said that he has deep respect for peace seeking Arabs.
Understand one thing, Both during and after his term as Chief Rabbi, and continuing today, there is much criticism of Yosef. Critics have questioned his theodicy, his halakhic rulings, and actions as spiritual leader.
Now again I ask you for something from leaders today in Israel calling for hate.Oh I do understand that he's been highly criticized by Israelis, I know that there are some moderate and sensible voices, remember, I am the daughter of a Jew. I also have a great uncle living in Israel.
Netanyahu, we will build on E1, that's a call for hate, it's perpetuating the conflict and raising the tensions.EDIT: I meant great uncle as in lovely, not as in extremely old. Although at 89 I guess he is.
Hollie, I'll save you the bother of a research. Here what it is:
I will just add a couple of lines- E1 is a piece of land adjacent to a developed region, a village called Maale Adamin (by the way, my friend lives there). Maale Adamin is a community of 40,000 Jews that is situated within 5 miles of Jerusalem; 5 miles!! There is no reason, legal or contractual that says Israelite can’t build there. E1 is not an occupied territory! These lands are not ”Palestinian lands”. At best they are Israeli lands and at worst they are disputed lands. They never were Palestinian lands. Israel is NOT going to build there any military objects that may threaten anyone.I know exactly what it is. I did not need to research Reuvera. And there's every reason that Israel cannot build there, legally. It's that old bug bare international law again. Notice I said LAW?
Your premise is flawed and not based in fact.
They are all frauds, distorting the reality to their advantage! Their harangue work on the ignorant plebe not on us!
Hollie, this shows that you have no knowledge of situation at all. You try to apply this crazy rabbi as an example of all Jews... He is as extremist as Hamas itself. He is a leader of Orthodox-Jews, who twisted the whole idea of God. Any Israeli who is not an Orthodox fanatic will tell you that Orthodox Religion is as twisted as terrorist organization. Thanks God, they have no identity with real Israel nation.
Now, lets get back to the real defenders of Israel, Israeli army, Israel Defense Forces. I will post now a picture that shows a humane face of Israeli army. To each picture that I post I ask you to post one of two choices- a picture that shows a humane face of Hamas warrior, or a picture that shows a terroristic face of an Israeli soldier. The pictures have to feature the children. Show me the pictures of Arab children who are taught peace and happiness, or show me the pictures of Jewish children who are taught hate and war.
Go ahead, let's see who wins the picture competition!
Oh that's true, they are so nice!
More realistic, aren't they?Max, Max Max,
Now come on now. .. you and I both know that those women that this solider is with could possibly have a bomb on them, ready to meet Allah in their suicide mission.
and notice he has his baton pointing away from them. He is not hurting them but look closely and one of the woman has a clenched fist.
What the Israelis done till not a sign of humanity, whole world says that Muslims are terrorist but what about Jews? are they terrorist or Human?
"What the Israelis done till not a sign of humanity"
not sure what this means, can you expound on this?
@ Reuvera, although I think it is likely (but not a given) that many Palestinians fled voluntarily- this has been the bone of contention of many scholars for some years who cannot agree. However, there is a also a possibility that even the ones that may have left voluntarily did so, because of scaremongering and false rumours.
"Israeli revisionist historians now maintain that as part of the campaign to evacuate Arabs from the Jewish state, the [Jewish] Haganah deliberately destroyed Arab houses and villages, broadcast false stories in Arabic of the spread of cholera and typhus epidemics, and urged the population to escape the bloodbath while there was still time. On the other hand, some [Israeli] efforts were made to reassure the Arabs, and in some instances Arabs were encouraged by the Jews to stay put, but by the first truce in mid-June 1948, over 250,000 Palestinians had fled, and this exodus had reached 300,000 by July [1948]. Arab Palestinians fled in some cases of their own free will, in some cases through fear; in other cases they were expelled."
The full text and evidence presented by various scholars is presented here:
http://israelipalestinian.procon.org/vi … nID=000481
I'd be really interested to see your sources claiming that only a handful of Palestinians were expelled, if you wouldn't mind. I'm always up for learning more.The majority of them were plainly deceived by their brethren blood-hungry Arabs.... you have to understand this before going any further. Arabs were planning to annihilate Jews from their baby country.... that's why they ordered those Arabs who lived there to live in order to come back as looters.
Jews, believe it or not, were asking Arabs to stay and build a new country together. Some Arabs did stay, believe it or not.... Just open your mild for a real history.My mind is open, that's why I posted a link to scholars with opposing views. I think evidence is important, it helps us to establish truth. And yes, some were but not all.
Have you heard of Rachel Shabi? She writes for Haaretz, she has some very interesting views on the conflict and the treatment of the Palestinians by the Israeli Government. I find her quite balanced, realistic . She also envisages what I do, if the far right government dig their heels in any further- there'll only be more conflict and Israel will become even more isolated then they already are.
http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/israel-a … m-1.481196
We must prepare for war as if it was inevitable and seek peace as it was at hand.Here lies the peace message of former Palestine.
So happy to see you. This post would be nothing without your incessant comprehension.
Happy Chanukah to you.
ajmil at-tihānī bimunāsabah al-mīlād wa ḥilūl as-sanah al-jadīdah
Yes, I both understand and know what it is.
Interesting that you usually back up your knowledge and understanding with more then just saying so.
You didn't ask for sources- you merely asked a question, which I answered. Had you asked for sources, I would have obliged. This particular zone is in occupied East Jerusalem. Empty, barren- yet occupied. A zone which is pivotal in the establishment of a two state solution.
I was not asking you for sources, I asked you what you know about E1.
and here is the history of E1
Like much of what some refer to as “the West Bank,” the land was once part of the Ottoman Empire – there were no villages, no homes, no dwellings. There’s no water there. Nothing. Sheep and goats sometimes graze on the lower areas of the hills, but that’s about it. Then the Ottomans were replaced by the British, and still nothing but the camels and the sheep and the goats and, perhaps, an occasional ground hog traversed the land.
In the 1920s, England cut off two thirds of the land that was called Palestine and gave it to the Hashemites – and thus Jordan was born. The remaining third was ruled by the British until 1947, including that land that today we call E1. In 1948, the Arabs chose war over peace, death over life. They attacked and lost – but they got E1 – the barren land between Jerusalem’s eastern border and the west bank of the Jordan River. And they got the West Bank and for 19 years. They did not create an independent Palestinian State.
In 1964, the Palestine Liberation Organization was founded to…to…well, if you believe their lies, it was created to fight the occupation that began in 1967 – what an incredible example of foresight, apparently.
In 1967, it was clear that Egypt and Syria were preparing for war – the signs were all there; the rhetoric loud and clear. Israel launched a preemptive strike and sent a message to the Jordanians. We have no quarrel with you; stay out of the fighting. We will not attack you. The Jordanians sent back their message in two ways – in words and action, the message was the same – we fight with our brothers…and so they did. They attacked, as they had in 1948, and the result was the same: they lost.
This time, E1 came into our hands. State-owned under the Turks; state-owned under the Jordanians, and now state-owned under Israel. Never the home of Palestinians; never an independent nation. No villages there, no buildings but for the one we built a few years ago…and the ones we will now build.
The history of E1 is very simple. It is but a mountain that lies between Ma’aleh Adumim and Jerusalem. Arabs regularly travel on the highway between Ma’aleh Adumim and the Dead Sea – the highway remains. There is no bisecting, no blocking, no break in the passage. If you took the time to see the land, you would understand nothing because there is nothing there to understand. It is not an obstacle to peace. It is just a mountain, soon to be green and developed.
That is the history of E1, except for one huge point that the world forgets. Before the Jordanians, before the British, before the Ottomans, before the Romans, the land was – as it is today – ours. It was the ancient Land of Israel; it is the modern Land of Israel.That is the history of E1, except for one huge point that the world forgets. Before the Jordanians, before the British, before the Ottomans, before the Romans, the land was – as it is today – ours
Wrong. Had it been granted by the UN, I'd nod my head in agreement, but it hasn't. It's not yours.How you try to hide who you really are. But time and time again in subtle ways you give your true being away.
Get one thing straight . .
'Behold, I will take the people of Israel from the nations among which they have gone, and will gather them from all sides, and bring them to their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel... And the desolate land shall be tilled... And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the Garden of Eden.'
Am Yisrael Chai!Wavegirl, enlighten me- who am I really? And what is my true being? I'll be honest- you've baffled me here.
Please, can you give us more details? Otherwise, I can help you.....
Wave, wave, wavegirl...
Obviously, they are all murderers. That's the reason why both of them are in a protective mode. What did the soldier say to those women to feel the need to be protected?
What about your own people?yes and their mission is to become a martyr
Suicide Bombing as Worship
"Since the 1980s, killing oneself deliberately has become the most popular method of attacking and killing one's enemies in countries including Iraq and Afghanistan, in territories such as Chechnya or the West Bank and Gaza"
Wavegirl, you were in shocked because Arabs were dragging a dead body? What about zionists dragging someone who is alive?
Here are our zionists "friends". Four military dogs, armed to the teeth with one blindfolded kid.source please. .I would hate for a photoshopped pic to tarnish your reputation.
4 military dogs, armed to the teeth with a blindfolded kid! Here are our zionist "friends"! Those pictures abound in the former Palestine's file!please Max tell us your source for this picture. I am sure if it was a valid pic not photoshopped then the world would have had it on the front page of every paper . ..
When you will show a picture without photoshopping I will "reveal" the source. As if this kind of pictures were unrealistic! Are you joking?
Zionists are a bunch of terrorists and that's it! It reminds me of the pictures of Abu Ghraib! The arrogance of the military dogs!Exactly! Knowing the bias of world pro-arabs mass media, it would be all over... So far I found only two sites, actually not the sites, but private blogs featuring this picture, both give it so small, that it is impossible to see the details.
maxoxam41-
I have the latkes cooking.. do you likes yours with applesauce or sourcream?It's more like you... talking about pies... enjoy your cooking!
I was trying to be nice. I guess that is something foreign to you. For your information, though you could care less about my culture, a latke is not a pie. And I do not bake or ever write about cooking or baking.
It is typical of what goes on in Israel with the Palestinians and your reply to me more then proved the point. You could care less to learn something about someone else. You rather stick with your hatred and pass that same type of thinking down throughout generations.
Where I come from, learning something new is a wonderful thing and something I strive for everyday. Learning from generation after generation is something the Jewish people are proud of.When you will try to learn something from your neighbors, the palestinians, I will, until that day I won't make any efforts in understanding your culture. So far, you are egocentric. Which other culture besides yours did inspire your curiosity? For years, I've been fed with the jewish "suffering" as every European countries until I discovered the Palestinians' fight.
In which country can a civilian walk in the streets, weapons on their shoulders? It is what we call a democracy, apparently!
@Paul Chesler,
You state that you believe that the population of Palestine was more than 10% during 1917/18, correct me if I'm wrong? Interesting, because I've read a variety of books on the subject where data has been taken from censuses just prior to and just after that period, and despite conflicting opinions on many other issues, there is consensus on this one. If you'd said that in some regions of Palestine Jews made up the majority, I'd agree. If you'd said the numbers of Jews were increasing at that time, I'd agree. But overall the number of Jews living throughout Palestine was around 10%, still very much in the minority. Unfortunately, my scanner is not working so I cannot upload the data which I have to hand in order to substantiate the percentages I have given. However, I have found this for you, which is pretty consistent with all that I've read. I'm not aware of any other census offering a different perspective of that time, which is why I'd be more than grateful if you post your source- I'm always up for exploring new information?
Year Arabs % Jews % Total
1870 367,224 98 7,000 2 375,000
1893 469,000 98 10,000 2 497,000
1912 525,000 93 40,000 6 565,000
1920 542,000 90 61,000 10 603,000
1925 598,000 83 120,000 17 719,000
1930 763,000 82 165,000 18 928,000
1935 886,000 71 355,000 29 1,241,000
1940 1,014,000 69 463,000 31 1,478,000
1946 1,237,000 65 608,000 35 1,845,000
also believe that your statistic on the percentage of Jews in incorrect. I believe that there were more there than you state in 1917-1918. If you check history, you'll also see that I had it right on the circumstances surrounding the Israeli mandate and why it was not enforced much at all. (By the way, support for Israel among British Jews was fairly staunch at the time, as far as I have heard, and the mandate was actually given as a favor to a British Jew who helped the British build and design their rockets in World War I)
Emm, in terms of British history and the "Israeli Mandate and why is was not enforced that much at all" I'm not really sure as to which Mandate you're referring to; The Balfour Treaty or the British Mandate for Palestine? If you're referring to the BT, Britain gave it's consent in 1917 (with some conditions which were not, however, met) I have to add at this point, that listening to gossip does not a historian make. Your assumptions, or that of your friends, are completely, factually inaccurate when it comes to British Jews and their "staunch support for Israel" The Zionist Federation, or ZF, or The Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland, was established in 1899. As I'm sure you're aware, one of the main aims of the Federation was the creation of a Jewish homeland. Unfortunately, for the Zionist Federation that is, of the 300,000 Jews residing in Britain during 1913 to 1916, less than 9,000 had become members of the ZF. And it wouldn't take a mathematician to work out that support amongst British Jews for a Jewish homeland was pitiful at worst, a small minority at best. In fact, an anti-Zionist movement had formed during this era, the majority of whom were British Jews. They were politically active (actually some were members of the Coalition Government) academics, and the remainder were those who identified as Jews, but British Jews, they had assimilated for whatever reasons, and didn't feel that they needed a Jewish homeland.
Crazy as this sounds, all three major religions believe in God. Even allah is an arabic contraction for "the God" (al=the, ilah=God). So whatever you want to call Him, everybody does agree to some degree in religion. All three major religions believe to some degree in the concept of a messiah (it differs, but the general theme is the same). My comment was meant to be one that could be accepted by everybody, because everybody agrees that there will be an end of days when God will put everything back to where it should be.
Crazy as this sounds, all three major religions believe in THEIR God. And don't forget the agnostics and atheists, they're descended from all three religions. But as your main focus appears to be that of Jews in Israel, take a look at this study from the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs.
http://jcpa.org/dje/articles2/howrelisr.htm
Personally, I would never use this as a reliable study because it is politically motivated. However, and in fairness to you, I've used a source which you may find favourable. Unfortunately however for you, the data exemplifies the diversity of religious belief and strands thereof, even amongst Israeli Jews. I mean, only 50% even completely believe they are the chosen ones. When faced with reality, we have to accept that there are broad divisions even amongst Israeli Jews as to religiosity and as to what God and Jesus means to them. Then we have the strands of Christianity, there are around ten I believe, and that's before we've even touched on Islam.
So, good luck with letting God sort it all out- but let's face it- he's not exactly done a sterling job so far.
I dunno, maybe I'm just a simple girl who doesn't think that much- but I'd still choose mutually agreed upon law, every time.Hollie you have the rigor in your search of a historian. Thanks to you, the truth is revealed, and not to their advantage.
Hollie, I will have to concede the point in that your data on the Jewish percentage in 1917/1918 must be correct enough...even if I have seen different data, the fact that there is conflicting data establishes the fact that there could not have been more than 15-20% (As I assume that when datas disagree, it usually falls in between them). You have done well in showing me that data. However, it does not negate the Jews' historical ownership of the land. That is a point that you must concede. Also, just because there were only 9,000 members of the Zionist organization in the UK does not accurately gage the feelings at the time. You also seemed to intimate that the Anti-Zionist group was fairly small, even far smaller than the Zionist group. That doesn't quite refute my point...however, I must admit that if you ultimately are out to clarify my points for everybody, then I am all for that. I also wonder why you are so insistant on everybody worshipping a different God, for the most part, one can argue that the three major religions biggest argument is not over God, but over who his principle prophet was. We all must concede that it is impossible for everybody to come to a solution that they will accept if it not for the concept that everybody believes that God will straighten it out someday...if not for that, would the christians really stand aside and let the other two major religions own the land while they can just access it? Answer me that. As for your data about Jews, not that it is actually even worth even our whiles to discuss this, but you must conclude that included in those numbers that you gave are people like yourself that are of Jewish ancestry, but are declared atheists. Not a totally fair statistic. I have little interest in debating the Jewish belief here...and I doubt that you do, too. You're not a simple girl... you clearly are a strong thinker that knows her history, but do admit that I have answered your challenges well here.
Paul, I'm afraid that there is no other data of the demographics of the area at that time- only that taken from censuses of which there were a few, for numerous reasons, however, they all broadly agree on this issue. So, unless you can offer some evidence to the contrary, or give some indication as to where you have uncovered this information so that I may find it for myself- then you haven't established that there is conflicting data, as you put it. Also, even in light of other evidence a demographer would not just make random assumptions as to numbers. This is a highly specialised field you know. I think where you may be getting confused is that you have, in all probability, read information which has been gleaned from a census of a town or city where Jews may very well have in the majority. Hence, your belief that Jews were in the majority through out Palestine. Perfectly understandable, we have all done this at some point.
Also, I don't need to concede the point that Israel may well have been in the land first, this I have never disputed because I do not have the necessary evidence to dispute or acknowledge one way or another.
Also, just because there were only 9,000 members of the Zionist organization in the UK does not accurately gage the feelings at the time.
I'm really interested to know why you've said this. In the interests of intellectual honesty and despite having being presented with data which establishes the amount of support the ZF received in Britain, what makes you believe that the non committal of the vast majority of British Jews to a Zionist State (which is what the ZF called for) does not somehow gauge the feelings of the day?
You also seemed to intimate that the Anti-Zionist group was fairly small, even far smaller than the Zionist group. That doesn't quite refute my point...however,
I'm also interested to know why you believe that I've intimated the Anti Zionist Group was fairly small, I gave some indications of the professions of the movement- but no stats as to their size.
I also wonder why you are so insistant on everybody worshipping a different God, for the most part, one can argue that the three major religions biggest argument is not over God, but over who his principle prophet was.
The problem with this statement going forward, is that while each religion may believe in God, Allah whatever- their perception of who's right and wrong in God's eyes is very different. Religious people will often commit acts of war in the name of God, both sides believing that God is on THEIR side, not their enemies. So, if there is only one God (which I very much doubt) he can't be the same one- or, he is on neither side.
We all must concede that it is impossible for everybody to come to a solution that they will accept if it not for the concept that everybody believes that God will straighten it out someday.
No, I'm afraid I disagree- we must not all concede this point. We each have our individual beliefs of which God is not always a part.
.if not for that, would the christians really stand aside and let the other two major religions own the land while they can just access it?
Are you suggesting then that this conflict is really just a tribal battle over territory and nothing more?
As for your data about Jews, not that it is actually even worth even our whiles to discuss this, but you must conclude that included in those numbers that you gave are people like yourself that are of Jewish ancestry, but are declared atheists.
Well, I'm afraid Paul that it was yourself that decided the number of Jews living in Palestine during that period was importance and needed to be mentioned. I merely interjected with the numbers because I noticed the inaccuracy. As a former student of the Social Sciences and involved in social research myself, I'm an absolute stickler for statistical accuracy, reliable studies and credible evidence. Good point, regarding religious identity, many people would not have even asked that question. But yes, the data includes religious Jews, and those who identified as cultural Jews- including atheists. As it happens, censuses in other nations at the time (particularly Europe, but not necessarily Britain, are often viewed as unreliable because Jews, due to anti antisemitism, would not identify as such) But this was not the case, we are led to believe, in Palestine, as was. There is however, some doubt as to the accuracy of Arabs in the region at that time because of illegal immigration- but that casts doubt as to the percentage of Arabs living in the region, not Jews.
Yes, I have enjoyed our discussion and thank you for contributing. I may disagree with some of your points but I still find your input of value. You know it's been a worthwhile debate when each of us have learnt something from the other- And, I might add, I was not insulting God- I don't believe in him- Man made these wars, the bloodshed and the misery it has brought to all. But that's also my point about God and religion when brought into serious debate it offends sensibilities. I have my beliefs (or lack thereof) and you have yours- Some atheists would have been extremely rude to you for suggesting that God would take care of it- they'd have found it offensive that you impose your beliefs on them. Personally, I don't, I accept that your religion and beliefs are important to you and you have the right to voice them- so I don't take offence, but by the same token you have to accept that my beliefs are important to me, and I also have the right to voice them.Actually, hollie, I think that there was a misunderstanding. When I said significant population, I in no way meant majority. Just significant enough to establish an indisputable presence (I get a lot of my data from books, true, by the way). As there seems to be no statistics on the membership total of this British anti-zionist group, wouldn't it perhaps suggest that it was fairly small? I know that it can go both ways, but it would seem more likely to be that it was a smaller organization.
I'm not quite suggesting that this is a tribal battle over territory, but given the great importance placed on Israel by all three of the major religions, I am suggesting that religion will probably get in the way of any lasting peace that does not at least coincide with people's religious beliefs to some degree. History proves so. I was merely trying to make the point that since the concept of a messiah is accepted by all three of the religions, it could be a good starting point for everybody to agree to let matters be and let God decide. If they don't, they will be at each other's throats again. That's just how religion works. People get passionate. You know that. You too, hollie, have your own views. Doesn't everybody? Remember that the muslims call the war in Israel "jihad" (arabic for "holy war"). This is a religious battle at least according to some of the folks in the conflict, so I don't think that it can be solved any other way than with a religious solution. Diplomacy might not work here.
You do make an interesting point about everybody believing that God is on their side. This actually even happens among christian sects when they fight amongst eachother, muslim sects (specifically sunni and shiite), etc. That's an inescapable fact. The only peace, as I said before, is one that everybody can reconcile with what they believe that God wants. Any other one will probably not be lasting.Paul, I think I need to clarify what I meant by the British anti-Zionist movement- and given your response I think you might not be aware of what exactly the Anti-Zionist movement of the time was. The Zionist movement had met staunch opposition for a Jewish homeland for several years prior to the implementation of the Balfour Treaty, not from anti-semites but from the Jewish Community themselves. This is why the Jewish homeland was not created much earlier when first proposed. The Jewish community believed that the creation of a Jewish homeland was nationalistic and divorced from the Jewish religion. Religious Jews believed that the restoration of Zion could only come about by divine intervention and a man made creation of Zion was heretical. British Jews who were not overly religious were also completely opposed to the idea because they believed that the creation of a national home would deprive them of British citizenship and to some of the rights they were now enjoying. The Chief Rabbi of Great Britain had also come out and opposed the creation of a Jewish State- quite overtly. The very religious and not so religious Jews followed en-masse- for the reasons I have outlined. Anti-Zionism in the UK at the time was not just a small unimportant faction- but the reflected the beliefs of the vast majority of British Jews- hence, the Zionists Federation's failure to recruit Jews to their cause. To provide even more context to the scale of the Anti-zionist movement (which incidentally was not a some club where you gained membership, but was a movement of people opposing Zionism, for various reasons) It was global and not just exclusive to Great Britain. Many Jews living in Palestine as was, were also opposed to the creation of Israel for religious reasons and voiced their concerns when petitioning the G'ment of the day.
The movement was also strong in various countries throughout Europe and indeed the US.
Also, please stop insulting God. If you think that way, please keep it to yourself, because many of us will feel a moral obligation to step in if you say something about God. You might even offend maxoxam. I don't mean any pacifism, just ask for a little hot button issue sensitivity here.
Lastly, hollie, also please admit that whatever percentage of Jews did inhabit Israel in 1917/1918, it still was a fairly significant enough perentage, at least enough to definitely establish a presence.
The same minority was living all over Europe too. Did it mean that Europe was their country?
35%, according to Hollie's figures, were living in the region before the creation of the Israeli state. More important, however, is the proportion of land owned by Jews, which was higher. Jews had been purchasing, not stealing, the land since the late 1800s. While other areas were discussed for locating the State, where it is now was still the best bet because Jews were already buying and settling the land.
Throughout history - when one group overtakes another - to the victor go the spoils. That's what happened here. Even if we forget ancient history - the Jews now have ownership of that land - and that's all she wrote.
All that matters at this point is that the US will back Israel and Israel will not give the land back. Why there is any discussion beyond that is pointless. It's be like the State of New York going back to the natives that inhabited the region before the colonists ran them out.
To the victor go the spoils. Over a million arabs live happily in Israeli. They go to school there, they shop there. They don't want to leave.
Israel can never allow the Pals back in - in a right of return - because those Pals have promised to kill the Jews.
There's really no reason to keep beating this dead horse. It's not going to get up and run. Hamas is a terrorist faction. As long as it leads the Pals, the Pals will be associated with terrorism. Lobbing rockets willy-nilly into Israel is a terrorist act.Here we go again:
35%, according to Hollie's figures, were living in the region before the creation of the Israeli state. More important, however, is the proportion of land owned by Jews, which was higher
Wrong. Howard, if you're going to make outlandish claims at least provide some outlandish sources. Could you concentrate a little more on factual accuracy please? The proportion of Jews who owned land in Palestine before the creation of a Jewish homeland was no where near 35%, let alone higher.
Jews, or any other religion, domination, nationality were not even allowed to purchase land in Palestine prior to the 1860's because of Turkish policies. So, you're quite right to point out it was from the 1860's onwards, but your data is skewed (or fabricated, prove otherwise). Prior to 1947 here is the data for the proportion of land owned by Jews, taken from a number of sources:
"From the data, it is possible to discern three periods of land acquisition by Zionists and Jews. While Jews in 1922 owned 3 percent of the land of Palestine, the additional land purchased by 1947 raised the total owned by the immigrant Jews to 7 percent of the whole area of the country."
Source: http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/ht/d/Co … ils/i/2963
"According to British statistics, more than 70 percent of the land in what would become Israel belonged to the mandatory government. Those lands reverted to Israeli control after the departure of the British. Another 9 percent of the land was owned by Jews and about 3 percent by Arabs who became citizens of Israel. That means only about 18 percent belonged to Arabs who left the country before and after the Arab invasion of Israel. 5
Source: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso … html#_edn5
Note that it states 9% of the land was owned by Jews, and the further 70% allotted after the departure of the British. AFTER the departure of the British.
http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/stolen-land.htm Different source, similar data.
Throughout history - when one group overtakes another - to the victor go the spoils. That's what happened here. Even if we forget ancient history - the Jews now have ownership of that land - and that's all she wrote.
That's all who wrote?
While other areas were discussed for locating the State, where it is now was still the best bet because Jews were already buying and settling the land.
That is not why the land was chosen.
All that matters at this point is that the US will back Israel and Israel will not give the land back. Why there is any discussion beyond that is pointless. It's be like the State of New York going back to the natives that inhabited the region before the colonists ran them out.
What a ridiculous argument. You clearly have no concept of what is going on in your own land, let alone that of someone else. Whilst you sit there in the US, all comfortable and accepting of colonisation, death, destruction and the suffering of others, writing off human misery and the desire for freedom and independence as pointless, futile and not worth arguing about- People are suffering- What on earth gives you the right to decide on the behalf of the Israelis and the Palestinians that this horse is not worth flogging?
To the victor go the spoils. Over a million arabs live happily in Israeli. They go to school there, they shop there. They don't want to leave.
Firstly, link? Shameful, that in this day age, you think that the spoils of war are worth the bloodshed and suffering and that is what is important. Before you go to sleep at night, remember to write the names of all those dead Israeli and Palestinian kids on your wall. And then remember to tell yourself "ah, well, never mind, that's just the spoils of war"Hollie, I was pointing out that percentage-wise, the Jews owned more of the land than the arabs did at the time of the mandate. I recognize that much of the land was govt.-owned, but generally, folks try to say that the arabs owned the land - not the Jews. In reality, the Jews owned more than the Arabs did. Govt. land was free to be dispersed as the govt. saw fit.
I would recommend two books, "A Peace to End All Peace," and "Paris 1919."
I understand that it's politically correct to claim that the Jews stole the Arabs land – but there is no basis for that claim, when Jews owned a higher portion of the land before the mandate.
America isn't going to go back and give the Mexicans the land we took from them and Israel isn't going to go back and give the Arabs the land. It's just not going to happen.
You're inserting yourself vicariously into the Israeli/Pal conflict - but only on one side. You don't like me saying that to the victor go the spoils, but that's a fact. Wars are still being fought and the winners will determine the outcome of the regions. It's been that way for millenia - it's not likely to change anytime soon. I'm just being realistic.
The bottom line is that the Pals have to accept Israel or there will never be peace. Israel's accepted numerous two-state solutions. The Pals have not. I'm sorry for the innocents that are dying, but when one side is fighting a "holy war" there is little reasoning to be done. Keep your eye on Egypt. There's another hotpot of religious extremism getting ready to boil over.
For some odd reason - you seem to think humans don't kill each other. I'm just here to tell you that they do - and that many groups still use violence to settle their disagreements.Howard, you opened your post with a statistic of 35% and then go on to say more important was the amount of land owned by Jews, which was higher. You make absolutely no mention whatsoever of the amount of land owned by Jews in comparison to Arabs- you didn't even touch on it.
Thanks for the recommended reading, but I've read countless books on the topic, countless. I pride myself in having acquired knowledge and understanding from a variety of sources- some pro-Israel, some Pro-Palestine and then attempt to glean knowledge from neutral sources and accounts. Polarized and limited views taken from just two books interests me not.
Neither does political correctness interest me, however, I do believe that you're using the term in completely the wrong context here. On this issue, you appear to debating with a ghost. At no point have I said throughout any of my posts that the purchase of land by the Jews from the Arabs was theft- neither have I said that the formation of Israel was theft- I may disagree that the 'way' Israel was established in terms of it's effect on the Palestinians- but I've never called it theft. I do however, overtly, loudly and without any shame, declare the annexation of land through war and aggression is theft. I also, quite openly, state the taking land which has not been purchased or given within the confines of international law as theft.
You're inserting yourself vicariously into the Israeli/Pal conflict - but only on one side.
How you have the audacity to make such a claim is beyond me. Throughout this thread I've maintained that launching rockets into Israel is a war crime, and that Hamas are completely wrong to do this, whatever their reasons. By the same token I can also look at Israel and cite the same international law and take the position. Whereas, you on the other hand, can only focus on the crimes of Hamas. Not once have I heard you discuss the violation of the human rights of the Palestinian people, not once. Furthermore, and it doesn't like you've even noticed- whenever I've posted a link confirming statistics, I've posted Pro-Israeli sources and Pro-Palestinian sources- then a neutral one. Those are not the actions of a person with biased, limited and one sided views and understanding- those are the actions of a person who wants to examine ALL the information- ALL of it. As I've stated previously, intellectual honesty is important to me. Just because I want to ensure that we are discussing issues based on fact, as far as we can, does not make me one sided.
The bottom line is that the Pals have to accept Israel or there will never be peace. Israel's accepted numerous two-state solutions. The Pals have not. I'm sorry for the innocents that are dying, but when one side is fighting a "holy war" there is little reasoning to be done. Keep your eye on Egypt. There's another hotpot of religious extremism getting ready to boil over.
This statement beautifully illustrates my point about you only being able to see one side- the holy war being fought by one side- no mention of the world's largest open air prison- breech of international law or the violation of human rights.
For some odd reason - you seem to think humans don't kill each other. I'm just here to tell you that they do - and that many groups still use violence to settle their disagreements.
Who on earth is this response for? I close my post talking about the deaths of innocent Palestinian and Israeli children because of this conflict and you think that some how equates to me no thinking that humans do not kill each other. Again, you're only seeing what you want to see. Not based on fact or any of my comments.Interesting you say that to HowardBThiname as you seem very apt at calling the kettle black. Not once have I read one word from you in regard to the rights or the safety for the the Israeli's. You are clearly pro Pal, yet time after time when I have tried to discuss who and where have these Palestinians come from you tend to ignore it or change the subject.
Someday maybe you will understand that what unites 'Palestinian' Arabs is their opposition to Jewish nationalism and a desire to stamp it out – not aspirations for their own state. Murdering Jews is a collective Arab desire.
Peace does not rest in the charters and covenants alone. It lies in the hearts and minds of all people. The Arabs desire none of this, they do not even to this day recognize that there is an ISRAEL.
So tell me once again who are the Palestinians? As far as I have researched, studied read and discussed with many people the fact is that there has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the "West Bank" and Gaza as a result of losing the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started).
Before the 1967 war, the Palestine Liberation Organization's (PLO) primary goal was to destroy Israel. Post-1967, their goal became two-tracked: Either (1) destroy Israel outright (the same pre-1967 goal) or (2) the creation of an Arab-Palestinian state to be used as a launching pad from which to destroy Israel. Different strategies - same ultimate goal... a state not along side Israel, but IN PLACE OF Israel. It's really that simple!
With all that said, the Israeli's unlike the "Pals" breathen have had to deal with the issue of who they are. Maybe someday the Arabs will stop hating one another, maybe then and only then can they ever start the peace process with the Israeli's.Let me help you, Wavegirl, here are just a few of my posts from myself condemning the murder of Israelis AND Palestinians. Condemning Hamas and the Israeli Net g'ment for war crimes, talking about the murder and human rights of BOTH Groups:
"The same thing I think about all children losing their life. I don't try to justify murder by either side"
".While I would never condone violence against civilians of Israel, or Palestine, there is a bigger picture here.There is much that the Government of Israel can do to promote peace, for all citizens whether they be Israeli or Palestinian,"
"Wavegirl, I think it's all appalling, whether the deaths are Israeli or Palestinian, but I don't think it's as simple as getting rid of a political party."
"Personally, and these are my personal feelings, I can well understand why European Jews would want a homeland, a place where they could feel safe and free from persecution, but the Palestinians paid a heavy price for this."
" Israel are just as guilty as Hamas. "
"I do get that thousands of Israelis live under terror, but I also get that thousands of Palestinians do too. I can't defend Israel for policies which I believe are inherently wrong, neither can I, and I never have, defend Hamas for firing rockets into Israel. I believe that the way the British et al formed Israel left a lot to be desired, but that doesn't mean that I don't think that Jews should have a place that they call home, or where they should feel safe. "
"There's two versions of Pro-Israel, one version that recognises that they have made some mistakes, but also wants a fair an equitable solution for all residents in the region. And another that I could only describe as delusional parents, who consistently try to justify the appalling behaviour of their spoilt brat. I'm a member of the former type of Pro-Israel advocate. Which one are you?"
" I could post pictures of Israelis and video footage of their aggression towards the Palestinians, but that is not the whole picture is it? The aggression comes from both sides, as does the hatred."
"The point is, if Israelis were being denied basic human rights, and the land that they do own as granted by the UN were suddenly invaded and annexed by an aggressor- I'd be the first one to shout Geneva Convention and international law. Because I believe that ALL, should be protected by it and that ALL should be bound by its terms. I'm not a hypocrite."
"Hallelujah! Yes, Hamas does commit war crimes and I have never suggested otherwise (read through some of earlier posts) this we can agree on. So does Israel and this is where you're blind spot is showing. "
"@Paul. I've acknowledged that Hamas violates peaceful resolutions in the above post, I always have, in fact, acknowledged this. But I'm saying that both sides do- Which to me beggars the question; how can there be peace when both sides refuse to adhere to international law? Shouldn't both sides be pressured by other nations to respect those laws, if only to get both sides back around the negotiating table?"
"But there again, I would never to try to defend or justify war crimes, war criminals or any form of extremism."
"Before you go to sleep at night, remember to write the names of all those dead Israeli and Palestinian kids on your wall. And then remember to tell yourself "ah, well, never mind, that's just the spoils of war"
You accuse me of being apt at calling the kettle black for trying to see BOTH sides of the conflict. When you are tunnel visioned when it comes to seeing both sides, you prove time and time again that you are incapable of any form of impartial evaluation. I would never defend the murder of Israelis or make excuses for Hamas. Yet, you do this constantly when it comes to Israel, You go onto to accuse me of changing the subject; Yet, when I attempt to discuss the findings of a report that YOU introduced, you switch off, not interested- just want to discuss the parts which feed your bias. In the last exchange I had with you, you state that many Israelis were highly critical of the Rabbi who made those abhorrent comments, I agree with that statement and even maintain that I know many Israelis disagreed with him and would never make such comments. I acknowledge that land which was given to Israel is theirs- but not the land they are annexing, and this is how you respond:
"How you try to hide who you really are. But time and time again in subtle ways you give your true being away."
I ask you what you mean by this and you don't even bother to answer.
Yes, I AM Pro-Palestine and yes, I AM pro- Israel- why is this so difficult for you to understand?
I have never denied that some factions have called for the destruction of Israel- but they are some factions- and the Net g'ment is feeding their hatred of Israel with his actions. I have always maintained that international law is the way forward. The Palestinians should have a sovereign state of their own, and both sides should be bound by international law. This is where Israel could lead by example in respecting those laws- not ignoring them.Never once have you said anything about what the leadership in Gaza or the West Bank teaches their children. Over and over again we have shown you instances and facts of what the children of the Pals are being taught.
Never once have you shown one ounce of respect for what the Israeli's bring to this world. They take the rockets that are aimed at them to kill them and they turn them into items of beauty. These are facts you can ignore or deny all you want. The children of Israel are never ever taught that they should grow up to wipe the Palestinians or any other living being out.
So again I will give you examples of what the Palestinians youth is taught.
“Judaism is a distorted, corrupted falsified religion” … the Jews’ “evil nature is drawn from Adam’s first son,” Cain… “And the conflict between us and the Jews is not a conflict about land and borders, but rather a conflict about faith and existence.” –PA religion teacher, Sheikh Ishaq Feleifel
“The children must finger their stones; all the youth must prepare themselves,” as Palestinians are in a state of war until “the final victory.”
So once again I ask you, if children on a daily basis are being indoctrinated to see Jews and Israelis as innately demoniac, then how can they ever grow up to accept a Jewish state and not work to destroy it?
And you want to tell me about war crimes.Never once have you said anything about what the leadership in Gaza or the West Bank teaches their children. Over and over again we have shown you instances and facts of what the children of the Pals are being taught.
And never once have I denied that this is the case. You're using the same tactic again, only talking about the wrong doing of one side and never acknowledging that both sides are guilty of hatred. When you're presented with any evidence- you either don't like the source or launch into petty accusations and insults. If you can't see that the hatred also comes from some Israelis then you must have walked around your whole life with your fingers in your ears and wearing a blindfold. I'm not responsible for your education you are.If you want to remain completely and utterly blinkered that's your decision- not my problem.
Never once have you shown one ounce of respect for what the Israeli's bring to this world. They take the rockets that are aimed at them to kill them and they turn them into items of beauty. These are facts you can ignore or deny all you want. The children of Israel are never ever taught that they should grow up to wipe the Palestinians or any other living being out.
In a thread about murdered children and a conflict that's claimed the lives of so many- you want to talk about jewelry! it if wasn't so tragic it would be funny. Personally, I think the topic war crimes is, by far, more pertinent. And even when you do bring up this issues, it's always in the context of how superior one race, religion or culture is over the other. I'm not like you, ethnocentrism is for the less informed imo, I don't believe in supremacy.
And once again I tell you, after presenting some of my own opinions- after presenting some evidence (which laughably you don't like and don't want to discuss) That this conflict has two sides- two sides- both guilty of many things. See how that works? It's acknowledging WRONG doing.
Hollie, I'm unable to keep up with this conversation to the extent I'd like to - so please forgive that. I'm not backing a "holy war," I'm an atheist and I think the big problem we're seeing right now is an extension of radical Islamic views.
There's just so much misinformation out there. I would like to see the Pals live a better life, but that's not going to happen until they elect a peace-loving leadership and leave religious extremism behind.
What the world is seeing right now is an extreme case of "Mommy, Billy hit me back!" The Pals continue to lob rockets into Israel (granted, they don't do a lot of physical damage), but after warnings to stop - Israel hits back. And, it hits hard. But the thing to keep in mind is that Israel does not hit first.
My book recommendation was only because those two books cover the time from the Balfour Declaration, so it's easier to see the problems that existed prior to 1948.
I understand that you don't like the idea of land encroachment by war, but the 67 war was in response to Arab buildup of military on Israel's border. The land gained was necessary as a security buffer between violent Arabs and the most civilized parts of Israel.
Israel has torn down its own settlements - given Gazans land and only to be given the election of a terrorist regime in return.
Israel has to play hardball because the Arabs are not ceasing their attacks. There can be no right-of-return for the very same reason.
I'm not immune to the suffering of the Pals, but the answer doesn't lie in Israel backing down - it lies in convincing their own people to stop the attacks.
No matter whether we now think Israel is or is not in the "best" spot for a Jewish state - there it sits. And that's what we have to deal with today. I'm not advocating slapping the Pals because they've done some violent things in the past, but many are fiercely devoted to slapping the Jews for what they view as violations of the past.
I believe you're truly interested in just the facts, but sadly, you're in the minority. Many anti-Israel or anti-zionist folks are really antisemitic. That's what Israel's dealing with. Centuries-old hatred based on suspicion of a specific race/culture/religion's brains and initiative.
Most of the time, anti-Israel rhetoric contains a grain of hatred. Not always, but most of the time. If you notice those (not you) here who trash Israel the most, they also find time and opportunity to spread conspiracy theories like Jews were behind the 9-11 attack and Jews control the media, etc.
I don't know that the Pals are ready for a democracy, look what is happening in Egypt. Just ask yourself - if you had to choose to live under Israeli government or under Hamas government, which would you choose?
First of all, the Jews have no similar claim in Europe since they do not historically own the land. My back and forth conversation with hollie demonstrated the Jews' ownership of the land of Israel. Second of all, kudos to HowardBthiname for hitting all the right points. What is truly ridiculous is people blaming Israel for accidentally killing civillians in the process of air strikes because mititants hide behind civillians. Israel cannot be expected to not defend it's population to avoid any civillian casualties. If people hide behind civillians, it is a dirty trick, and the people hiding should be blamed. The fact that Israel does not want the civillian casualties is evidenced by the fact that the civillian casualties nearly always occur in the process of air strikes on militants. They don't just go bomb out apartment complexes. They are merely trying to defend themselves, and if they tried to avoid civillian casualties in their air strikes altogether, they would not be able to defend themselves or have any effectiveness to their airstrikes. Militants hide in schools and hospitals, and Israel waits until they leave those places and are driving around in public to blow them up. Whether or not somebody else near the explosion dies, it does not change the fact that it is commendable on their part to do it the way they do and a further demonstration of their humaneness. Hamas sends rockets at Jewish population centers. That is the definition of a war crime, and yet Europe turns a deaf ear.
You are telling me that no jews owned land in Europe? It is absurd. They had land in northern Africa under the French domination. Was there a law that forbad jewish people to own lands in Europe?
Stop justifying their murderous actions. Netanyahu's goal is war. After all, didn't Rabin order to kill Saddam Hussein in 1992? Another proof of the zionist danger!No. But yes, for centuries, Jews were not allowed to own land in europe by law. Also, did they own and dominate the land the way that they did in Israel 3,000 years ago, 2,500 years ago, etc.? Historically, the Jews have ownership of Israel. I would have a hard time explaining that a country like France or England would belong to the Jews. Unlike Israel, the Jews never had a majority in England or France, and didn't found the cities either. They merely resided there. France belongs to the French. England to the British. Israel to the Jews.
They definitively dominated any European societies! Why do you think that the Nazis went after them for? Even today, they control banks, tv networks, they are politicians, presidents (Sarkozy) ... They are deeply anchored in every country. They even have their parliament in Europe. Isn't the knesset enough? What are you talking about? I mean come on it is not news. They never were superior numerally in Palestine as in Europe before the Balfour treaty. Palestine to the Palestinians since you are an extremist.
Maxoxam, the numbers do not back your statements up (the Jewish percentages were higher in Israel than in Europe by a landslide by World War II). You also proclaim that the 1/4 Jewish Sarkozy is Jewish?! Israel is in Asia, not Europe. Do you know your geography? You don't know your facts, max! Ask hollie. She knows her history, and she will tell you. Israel belongs to the Jews. The term "palestinian" was for the most part invented in the past 100 years. Before then, they were just arabs.
This map is the european jewish population in 1939. Far from the nonsense you're talking about.
Sarkozy is seen from the French spectrum as a jew since he's not 100% French. The 1/4 doesn't count. Either you are French or not. It is not like in the US.
Where did you see that I had a problem situating former Palestine? I do know my geography.
Many will also say that it comes from the root philistin that comes from a shelf that the natives found in abundance along their litoral.You stated that the Jews "have their parliament in Europe." Israel is in Asia and it is not a memeber nation in the EU. I don't care what the Jewish populations in Europe were, they typically were 10% or less of the population of the nations. The Jews did not found the cities in Europe, they moved there because the Roman government kicked them out of Israel. A small remnant did remain in Israel and the rest left. After the dissapation of the Roman empire, they were allowed to come to Israel if they pleased, but at the time the Jews of Israel lived in extreme poverty with poor living conditions and it was unattractive to anybody who was moving there not for religious reasons only. Soon the ottoman empire starting trying to prevent jewish immigration. After 1860, when the ottoman empire starting allowing Jewish immigration to Israel, the Jews set their minds to it and made conditions better for themselves. The Jews have a historical ownership of the land of Israel that dates back to before Islam started, and that ownership has been solidified more recently. Trying to award European nations to the Jews is crazy. Are you going to suggest that France should belong to the muslims because it is 9% muslim? Your statement is illogical.
Paul, you should care for the number of jews in Europe in 1939 because it destroys your argumentation stating that their presence was inferior to the one in former Palestine. It also supports my question, had former Palestine be their country what was the majority doing abroad?
Secondly why would someone who doesn't dispose of knowledge answer questions? You accused me of not knowing my geography based on the fact that I told you that there was a jewish parliament in Europe, it only showed your ignorance in matter of international politics. Every informed person knows that it exists in Brussels a jewish parliament and my question was, don't they have enough with one i.e. the knesset? Next time avoid answering if you don't know!
Paul, I think ALL human life is significant, whether it be a majority or minority.
Agreed. Life is precious. We're really just debating who to blame here, and you have to blame hamas at least a bit (I do nearly completely) for their role in causing palestinian civillian deaths by hiding behind civillians.
I blame Hamas for many things- but you still have a blind spot when it comes to Israel. The Israeli govt have bombed playgrounds, hospitals, civilian residences and that has nothing to do with Hamas hiding behind civilians.
The PLO murdered Jewish athletes in front of the entire world at the Olympics in Munich in 1972.
Try defending that one.Why on earth would you think that I'd even want to try? You will not find one post of mine where I attempt to justify ANY terrorist action from EITHER side. And I would certainly never attempt to defend a terrorist action by saying "well, the other side do it too"
you know why you cant or wont. . .because you can not find a terrorist attack perpetrated by the Israelis.
Dont you find it a bit curious when they kidnapped Gilad Shalit and kept him for 5 years ,, the Israelis cherish his one life and they gave the Pals over 1500 for him.
What does say to any civilized person?
And the fact that you wont even address the murders in Munich speaks volumes.What a Day it was!
The life of one Jew is worth lives of 1027 Arabs in the eyes of his country!What on earth are you taking about, I don't try to defend it because I believe it was wrong. I'm not like you, I don't stick my fingers in my ears and then stamp my feet because I'm presented with distasteful information. I don't cry that I don't like the source because I don't like the information. Let me you help you again, because clearly the point is not sinking in; I believe that whether Hamas, the PLO or the Israeli goverment commit terrorists acts they are GUILTY of murder. Got it? Finally?
And how, exactly, would you like me to address the murders in Munich? By calling them murder and suggesting that I'd never condone them? I believe I've already said this- I can provide evidence of terrorists attacks perpetrated by Israel, the reason I didn't is because I'd never go down the route of attempting to justify the murders of Israelis by saying "so what, look what the Israelis have done"
If you really, and I mean really, want to see terrorists acts committed by both sides and try to understand how the actions of Israel are fueling extremist hatred; then watch these three documentaries.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A1SZ2OSWnI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6tykXSdp4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ_AOep4nI8
I suspect you wont, and I suspect you'll have a problem with the documentaries- even though they are impartial and discussing the ugliness of the conflict from both sides; including Muslim extremism.I knew it would go over your head and you would come up with something to defend your words.
Unlike the Arabs, Israel does not just come up with attacks on the Arabs just to wipe them off the planet. Maybe someday you will understand that. Its doubtful and I feel for you that you cant open your thinking to anything but the way you think.
When and if the day ever comes that the Pals and their leadership acknowledge that their is a country called Israel maybe then we will see peace in the region.What words? I've never condoned the killing of Israelis- you consistently condone the murder of Palestinians, In your world, murder is ok, but not in my world.
Unlike the Arabs, Israel does not just come up with attacks on the Arabs just to wipe them off the planet. Maybe someday you will understand that. Its doubtful and I feel for you that you cant open your thinking to anything but the way you think.
No, just to push them out of their own land. And, I feel for you, that you are so blinkered, so indoctrinated by hatred for your fellow human being, that you will only allow yourself to see one side. Unfortunately for you, I doubt that it will buy your place in heaven which you appear to believe in. I hope that one day your bias and prejudice will allow you to see that one human life is every bit as equal as another.
You clearly watched the documentaries (not) why does that not surprise me.
The IRA did it. The Basques did it. The Baader meinof gang did it. Carlos did it... Isn't violence the last form of expression, last resort when negociations are vain?
Hollie, you have to prove this one. It is already widely recognized that Hamas DO put their military objects next to civilian objects. It is proved that Hamas has rockets sites next to hospitals, schools, living quarters. It is not even disputed any more.
Shame on you on that you said what you said. It is Hamas that send rockets with the only aim- to hit Israeli people in their everyday life. How can you be so in denial! Israel hits with medically exact hits into the sites from where the rockets are fired. Israel could have just smashed everything in Gaza, like another country under terrorist attack would do. But Israel does her best to minimize civil casualties among Arab population....
How can you compare Israel, the only progressive country in the Middle East that gave the world the best inventions in technologies, science, medicine, etc with nations whose only aim is to wipe out Israel and Jews and next the rest of the non-Muslim world!Hollie, you know that Israel does not usually act in cold blood like that. Are you sure that the bombings that you quoted were not accidental? The rarity of such occurances attests to their unintentionalness.
@Reu Vera and Paul;
Here is a link from the Independent newspaper confirming; not only that the Israeli g'ment shelled a school, but also to the UN headquarters, and a hospital. Also, allegedly white phosphorous was contained within the shells which I'm sure you're aware is banned.
The UN workers warned the Israeli g'ment that they were at risk of being shelled and gave their co-ordinates but they were attacked anyway. Here's the full story.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world … 80407.html
And here's another link confirming this.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article … chool.html
ReuVera, who on earth are you addressing your response to, no where have I said that Hamas do not launch rockets into Israel and on every occasion I have condemned the fact that they do. In fact, shame on you, because whilst I'm able to open my eyes and see that both sides are murdering innocent people- you attempt to justify the murder of innocent kids by closing your eyes talking about Israels inventions, as if that somehow justifies murder. If you want to remain in the dark then so be it, but don't attempt to bring me down to your blinkered level by trying, ineffectively I might add, to feel some sense of shame for reporting how the conflict IS, an not just how I'd like to see it.When you or Max do not have what to say, you start twisting what I or others said. Very inventive.
Shame on you on that you said what you said. It is Hamas that send rockets with the only aim- to hit Israeli people in their everyday life.
I believe that is *exactly* what you said, no twists, no turns- in black and white."you attempt to justify the murder of innocent kids by closing your eyes talking about Israels inventions, as if that somehow justifies murder."
You said so, right? Anyway, I have to go to work... I earn my living, not taking it from the gov. TTYL.And so do I- Petty assumptions are useless here.
Hollie, why do you every time presume that I mean YOU if I say any thing? Is it a kind of self-defense syndrome? I said this just to explain why I am not on-line for some time. Haven't thought about you at all. I am surprised how some people seem to live in the internet. Even if their job is connected with it, how they can be constantly posting?
Well, if you're constantly noticing their posting, I imagine you're spending roughly the same amount of time on the internet as they are. I don't see the mystery myself.
No, I say that you appear to be more interested in Israeli inventions than the misery and suffering of that in the Mid East. When and if the Mid East become s a peaceful place again, it will be time to celebrate innovation. I put human life first.
Still although, there is no proof that Israel did this intentionally. Should they have been more careful? Perhaps, but do either of us know who and where they were aiming at to know if it would have defeated the purpose to avoid the area?
Yes, Israel admitted that they were aiming at the buildings and apologised. They then said it was because they believed that a member of Hamas was there, but the UN workers said that that was rubbish. And, they had been pre warned by UN workers about exactly whom and what were in the buildings.
That's what I was saying...it is unlike them to bomb civillians without them believing that there is a militant there. It's not cold blood like the hamas attacks, as it sounds like it is on the border of reckless and unintentional, but still, you are right that maybe they should have been a little more careful if there was a doubt whether or not there even was a militant there. Remember, the Mosad is known as one of the most effective intelligence agencies in the world and I would have to cut them a little slack and assume that they knew who was where in all likelihood.
At any rate, I would join you in not condoning white phosphorus attacks...that's something against international law no matter what your interpretation is. However, please note that the white phosphorus is alleged and not confirmed...the article writers didn't know for sure, you don't know for sure, I don't know for sure...Oh, ok, so you believe it's ok to bomb civilians (including schools containing innocent children) humanitarian supplies and hospitals for One Militant, even if they have absolutely no reliable evidence to state that this was the case, and even when they have already been contacted by the UN, stating that this is not the case? I thought you were the type of Christian who valued human life, even if that human life were in the minority. Now you seem to thinks it's justified to murder the majority for a minority? You need to explain yourself here, Paul.
Now, you're also claiming that bombing a school, and a UN headquarters, when they knew they were occupied by innocent people IS NOT COLD BLOODED? How can you possibly come to that conclusion? It's completely coldblooded-it's murder in the first degree, it's terrorism and every bit as brutal as Hamas murdering innocent Israeli children.
Remember, the Mosad is known as one of the most effective intelligence agencies in the world and I would have to cut them a little slack and assume that they knew who was where in all likelihood.
No, they're either really ineffective or they're not. Given the number of apologies the Israeli Government have made over the years for all the innocent people they have murdered, all the strikes on particular targets such as hospitals, schools, civilian homes; they're either completely incompetent- or just cold blooded murderers. You decide. Why don't you start from the premise of; Is there any truth in what Hollie says? I'll research it for myself. Or, on the other hand, you could just adopt the attitude that thousands of innocent lives is just...well, a mistake.
However, please note that the white phosphorus is alleged and not confirmed...the article writers didn't know for sure, you don't know for sure, I don't know for sure...
Why is why, in case you missed it, I used the term allegedly. However, if you want me to provide some evidence that the Israeli Government HAVE used white phosphorous in the past, I'd be more than willing. Given your interest in the conflict, I'm pretty amazed that you didn't know this.
Former Palestine's policy is to strike first then apologize and the whole international community forgives. The immune leniency is over. Enough of complaisance!
Hollie - lighten up. You know from recent history that Israel never listens to, cares or pays attention to the UN.
I don't know what record they are trying for, they have already ignored more UN resolutions than any other country, including North Korea, Cuba, Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq, Palestine or any other Muslim country.
If it wasn't for American schools, they would probably be in the Guinness book of records for child killings.And this is what angers me, because if you speak about it then you MUST be an antisemite.
”...If statistics are right, the Jews constitute but one percent of the human race. It suggests a nebulous dim puff of stardust lost in the blaze of the Milky way. properly, the Jew ought hardly to be heard of, but he is heard of, has always been heard of. He is as prominent on the planet as any other people, and his commercial importance is extravagantly out of proportion to the smallness of his bulk. His contributions to the world’s list of great names in literature, science, art, music, finance, medicine, and abstruse learning are also away out of proportion to the weakness of his numbers. He has made a marvelous fight in this world, in all the ages; and had done it with his hands tied behind him. He could be vain of himself, and be excused for it.
The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”
- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)What must we understand? Had I taken Hitler's view of the jews it would be in radical opposition with Twain's opinion. Does it mean that one is righter than the other? What about both views are extremist?
Perhaps, but Twain was merely making a comment on society and was christian....hitler has been disproved and shouldn't be brought up in a conversation as "the other side"....my grandfather was a US soldier in world war II...was yours? Maybe you would look at hitler as an irrational baffoon if your grampa had been a soldier in the US army at the time, but apparently your's wasn't.
Since you lied to us about your fluency in French, what about Louis-Ferdinand Celine's opinion on jews?
Did I? Actually, I tried to start a conversation in french with you and you never replied. I will say it again (I said this three days ago, but you clearly didn't notice): "commencer quelque conversation que vous voulez et je vais vous repondre." Who's really lying, maxoxam? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that it was an honest mistake and you didn't see my reply.
I wrote those lines : "That's the reason why they annexed the whole Palestine? That the reason why they were salivating on the Sinai but the Egyptians showed them who they were. Jordan is not their ally, Jordan is paid to be their ally, it is different. Egyptians hate them (coming from the mouth of a engineer I met in Alexandria).
The UN just showed you that the rest of the world will have their voices heard from now on.
The US doesn't care about the nuclear weapon, it cares about oil, gas... If you haven't understood it yet, it is your problem.
Venezuela, Iran... a third force is rising, the BRIC, the ALBA... Wake up!
People are fed up!
De quoi pourrais-je parler avec vous si ce n'est de notre desaccord? Quelqu'un parlant le francais serait moins pompeux que vous. "commencer quelque conversation que vous voulez" est encore une fois une traduction francaise d'un anglophone ne maitrisant pas le francais. Desole de vous le faire savoir mais il faut bien que quelqu'un vous fasse tomber de votre piedestal et je suis content que ce privilege m'appartienne"
If you had paid attention to it, you would have noticed that I wrote in French to you. I guess your lower level limited, didn't it? Do you wnat me to translate to avoid you another humiliation?Vous etes celui qui est pompeux. En outre, cette phrase que vous venez d'ecrire feriez mieux de grammaire que toute autre chose que je n'avais jamais vu de vous. Avez-vous pris des lecons, peut-etre?
Waow, very poor French. "vous venez d'ecrire feriez mieux de grammaire que toute autre chose que je n'avais jamais vu de vous. Avez-vous pris des lecons, peut-etre?" I understand why you don't comprehend my French given the quality of yours. Let's stop the massacre here. French is too beautiful of a language for you to abuse it.
Corriger. Ma grammaire etait mauvaise. Il est tard. Je suis fatigue. Mon cerveau ne fonctionne pas. Ce arrive a vous avant, vous souvenez-vous?Vous avez fait une erreur plus tot dans cette conversation.
You can't actually win this one. I am the best french speaker in my office and handle all french (and spanish) speaking accounts (we also do business in Canada aside for the US and I am the contact in Quebec).
Since when Quebec is French? It is the XVI century French! Blonde in French means blond woman in Quebec it means girlfriend. Totally different, the base is similar but the language is radically different. Now I understand where your French comes from!!!!!
It's not because you speak a better French than your colleague that you beat the rest of the world. What an argument!I didn't say that I would beat everybody, just that they can't beat me, because my french is good enough that if you talk french, so do I. For example, if I know english and you know english, did I beat you? No, unless my english is that much superior to yours (and your french is not superior to mine, only different).
Yes, Quebec does use a slightly different french, perhaps that is where our misunderstandings come from. They are different, the same as American and British english are different. Quebec french is what I need to speak, because I do sometimes do business with Canadians and never with Europeans (at least for now).I am the only one in my office who speaks french. I don't speak a better french than my colleagues, they just don't speak the language at all. The other day, a fax came in from Quebec for me that said "demande de prix et livraison." Nobody knew what it meant. I had to come in and explain that it meant "request the price and delivery."
No, maxaoxam, didn't see your reply either. Would have replied had I seen it. You sure that you replied? Hey, if you did, everybody is human...I must have somehow missed it.
“Some people like the Jews, and some do not. But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has appeared in the world.”
- Winston Churchill - Prime Minister of Great BritainGetting to visual aid again....
PICTURES SPEAKS A 1000 WORDS...
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM CHILDHOOD
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM INNOCENCE
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM BEAUTY
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM LOVE
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM KINDNESS
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM DREAMS
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM HOPE
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM EDUCATION
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM TRUTH
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM DIGNITY
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM FRIENDSHIP
THEY ROB THEIR CHILDREN FROM MIRACLE OF LIFE ....
THEY INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN WITH HATE
THEY INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN WITH PROPAGANDA
THEY INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN TO LOVE DEATH
THEY INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN WITH LIES
THEY INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN WITH DECEIT
THEY INDOCTRINATE THEIR CHILDREN WITH LIES
THEIR BIGGEST SUPPORTER & MENTOR ?.... THE UNITED NATIONS...
AND ISRAEL IS THE BAD GUY?????
IF YOU SUPPORT " PALESTINIAN CAUSE " YOU SUPPORT THESE MONSTROUS ACT..
DO NOT BE AN HYPOCRITE !!!! STAND WITH THE TRUTH !!! OR KNEEL & SUBMIT TO THE EVIL OF ISLAM !!!.The Israelis will not recognize Palestine as a State and Palestine will not recognize Israel as a State. Israel above all overs should realize what it is like not to have its own nation. Throughout recent history, the occupying country has always been seen to be at fault: Be it the German occupation of France in WW11 or the Iraq occupation of Kuwait, why therefore is it different for Israel? As long as Israel refuses to acknowledge the existence of an independent State of Palestine, they will never receive acceptance from the Arab world. Israel acts as if it is the offended, yet it is responsible for ignoring more UN resolutions than any other country including Cuba, Iran and North Korea. The killing of civilians can never be justified, especially by those that are occupying forces. The first thing that Israel should do is start to act like a responsible independent nation, recognizing the need to listen to others. It is no wonder that the Arab world are seeking nuclear weapons considering that the US gave Israel, the most consistent country to ignore the rule of international consensus, nuclear capabilities. I suppose that the US thought that they could control Israels actions but it has become abundantly clear that Israel is not America's pet. The only question remaining is: Is America, Israel's pet.?
OK, now we got another one who is uninformed and in denial. If you need some info supported by historical facts, re-read this thread, there is plenty posts there exposing the truth.. Or just do your own research, but not of biased mass media, but rather of historical books.
When propaganda needs to brainwash they do some history substitutions, they just substitute or invent the facts, like in this picture. This picture went viral in the internet, until again (again) it was exposed that it was all lie!
Historical facts you say. History is just that: HIS - Story. You can look at anything you like and say that that is in a history book and so must be fact. I have only referred to things that i SEE going on around me. Read an assortment of media if you must and then make an unbiased opinion, don't just look at one side.
Maybe you do not know, there is nothing to recognize for Israel. "Palestinian" state as well as "Palestinian people" was a mere political invention, same as "Jordan".
When I come back from work, I will put out some historical and political facts for you. Most likely you will not want to recognize them, but at least maybe other people who might come across this thread will.
So, talk to you later. With fact. Just give me some tome. I have to run to work now.Which came first, rafken? The chicken or the egg? The arab world has refused to accept Israel since 1948. Palestine was annexed by the UN in 2012. Israel was never were accepted by the arab world. Nor will they likely ever be, because the arabs firmly believe that they own the whole land, even though they do not, and have proven time and again that they will never actually accept a true two state solution. It makes sense that Israel reciprocates and does not accept the concept of Palestine.
By the way, why do people seem to harp so much on incidents of the Israeli army killing civillians? Most of their attacks are targeted and done to get back at militants. Blame the militants for hiding behind civillians, but do not try to tie one of Israel's hands behind it's back and prevent it from retaliating or defending itself. It is the practice of these militants to hide behind civillians. You want to talk about civillian deaths, check hamas's actions. They direct their bombs at civillians, and the Israelis, unlike hamas, do not hide behind civillians, so there is no excuse.
By the way, don't believe the press reports. Do you actually believe that the US doesn't want Israel to do what it does? The US has a very anti-arab stance ever since at least 9/11, but this really started with Lockerbie, actually even before that. When Israel bombs arabs, the US protests in public and celebrates behind closed doors. Israel is the only strong industrialized nation that will do whatever America wants it to. Israel is America's henchman. Don't be fooled. They are America's ONLY true henchman.I don't think that 9/11 had anything to do with this apart from making the Arabs look bad. What is surprising though, is that you mention Lockerbie. Here the chance was lost to decry Palestine. A Palestinian admitted to the Lockerbie bombing in retaliation to the U.S. shooting down an Iranian passenger plane, killing 195 people, the month before. At that time though, Gaddaffi was flavor of the month. The U.S./Israeli policies should be more consistent.
The pro-Israel policy in America is just part of their overall anti-arab policy. Yes, 9/11 made the arabs look bad, and America is retalliating against all muslim terrorists to this day. There is still no justification for killing civillians on a plane like with Lockerbie...if you condone that as legitimate retalliation, then you have no right to complain about any of Israel's retalliatory military actions, no matter what they do. The US/Israeli policies are consistent with minor variations depending on who the president of the US is....Israel is America's second closest ally.
America supplies Israel with weapons, Israel acts in accordance with their/America's wishes and America defends Israel. Simple process.
I have often heard its hard to know where you are going if you dont know where you came from. I understand that you are not a believer of God but as you are half Jewish it isnt a bad thing to know a little bit of history from where you came.
The early history of the Jewish people begins in the Book of Genesis, Chapter 12, when God first speaks to Abraham, and continues through to the end with the death of Jacob and Joseph. This segment can best be described as the development of the “family” of Israel, which in the Book of Exodus will become a “nation.”
Abraham was born in Ur Kasdim in Mesopotamia (today’s Iraq) then moved with his father to Haran (today’s northern Syria/southern Turkey) and that is where God instructed him to go to Canaan, the Promised Land, which will become the Land of Israel.
God said to Abram: “Go from your land ... to the land that I will show you.” (Genesis 12:1)
This is a key statement and the promise is repeated several times in Genesis. For example:
On that day, God made a covenant with Abram, saying: “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river the Euphrates. The land of the Kenites, Kenizites, Kadmonites; the Chitties, Perizites, Refaim; the Emorites, Canaanites, Gigashites and Yevusites.” (Genesis 15:18-21)
“And I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your temporary residence, all the land of Canaan as an eternal possession and I will be a God to them.” (Genesis 17:8)
We say that Judaism encompasses three core ideas: God, Torah and the Land of Israel. The Land of Israel is not a pay off. God did not say to Abraham: Support me and if monotheism spreads throughout the world, I will give you a good piece of real estate for your own. God gave Abraham and his family the Land of Israel as a unique homeland where his descendants are supposed to create the nation that’s the model for the world.
On an interesting note, Between 1901 and 2012, the Nobel Prize has been awarded to approximately 850 laureates. At least 177 of them have been Jewish. Jews have won approximately 20% of the Nobel Prizes awarded to date. An extremely impressive statistic considering Jews constitute only 0.2% of the world’s population.And, Hollie, mind you, before you accuse wavegirl that she is giving this info in order to cover what Jew are supposedly doing wrong or unlawful, I run to tell you: the info about achievements of Jewish people is underlined with one aim- to show that in spite of all oppression and hardships, Jewish people are actually progressing and helping the whole world to progress, they are really doing something that the whole humanity is benefiting from. Arab people also could have done more of things like this (not only inventing how to make rockets out of sewage pipes) if they were not that busy with their agenda of eliminating Jews. Jewish people move progress, not hatred and destruction.
I thought it was the Muslims, whilst in Spain, that devised modern mathematics. It could perhaps be argued that if it was not for this, much of our progress would not have come about. The Jews you mention being awarded the Nobel prizes, how many came from Israel? I think that this question was dealing with Israel and its actions as a nation, not about Jews and their history. No historical event can justify an act of barbarity today. Besides, I don't remember seeing where God told the Jewish people that it would be 2012 that they were to receive all this land.
Balderdash, I live in a multi cultural city. The hospitals around here are full of Arabs- mostly Doctors and consultants, specialists of every variety. My society is full of Arabic scientists, lecturers, politicians and the list goes on. It's a lot easier for them; they're not living in a disgraceful society that condones segregation; just imagine what Palestinians could achieve for Israel and Palestine alike, if they were granted equal citizenship, equal rights. Arabs have made every bit the same contribution to mankind as Jews. They may not come from wealthy families, and they may have been persecuted over the last few decades just like the Jews were before; but they are making headway. In fact, they now have some recognition at the UN- who'd a thunk it.
Hollie, the palestinians are given more oppurtunities in Israeli society than you think...at least up until they declared "independence" (for those of you who actually acknowledge it- I don't) they did much of the construction work in Israel..much of Israel's dairy goods are produced in the West Bank...up until the recent turn of events, Israel supported needy palestinians with social welfare benefits, etc. The Israelis are not as cruel or segregationist as some paint them to be. Infact, palestinians will probably have a far lower quality of living now that the Jews are going to stop helping them.
When the Palestinians outnumber the Jews, Israel will have a tough choice--democracy or a Jewish state.
When Arabs outnumber the other world population, the World will not have any choice..... Your great-grandchildren will live (if they live) under Sharia law.....
Runs even deeper than that- when Latin Americans, African Americans, Koreans, women, gays etc and et.al, outnumber the white American Male, no longer will a president of the US have to bow to the all powerful Israel lobby, just before an election, at the midterms, just before re-election and just before mid terms again. That's no so far away.
The US doesn't have to support Israel if they don't want to. America doesn't bow to Israel to gain support. America befriends Israel because many of their goals coincide and their enemies are similar...and because Israel does so many things that America covertly tells it to while pretending that it did not in public because America doesn't want it's name on it (like bombing Syrian nuclear reactors, for instance).
While some of you might not agree with US government's policies, you will have a hard time changing them.The white American male is already vastly outnumbered. However, who you forget about is the segment that does approximately the same things, and wants the same things (except for on Abortion rights, apparently), the white American woman.
I think the last election in the US proved unequivacably the white American woman does not necessarily always want the same things as her male counterpart. Romney couldn't gain ground with the entire demographic; ie, women of all races.
The last US presidential election was more about which candidate promised to give out more "free stuff" than anything else.
And, folks, with this comment we see why Republicans lost the election.
I agree. The GOP candidate didn't offer nearly as much as the Dem candidate. In a nation that values taking more than giving - this will always occur. It's sad that the US has sunk so far - but it's not unheard of. All historic democracies fell once the populous began to raid the coffers. We're right on schedule.
You're partly right. The GOP offerings were to the wealthy at the expense of the poor and middle class. Too bad Romney was so awful at pretending to care about the underclass. He just couldn't pull it off.
Again, I agree. Romney didn't play their game. While that says a lot about his character, it was destined to cost him the election. The US is at a tipping point. The Dems won, but in reality, the nation lost. From here - I hold out little hope. Now, it's all about appearances, wiping away fake tears and pandering to what you call the "underclass" at the expense of business and economy.
Well, whether it was about "free stuff" or not, the point is that not all white women and men, or just women and men in general necessarily wanted the same things.
Thus my point....women vote democrat more than republican because of abortion...still, only 54% of women voted democrat...further proof that they mostly agree with their male counterparts on everything except abortion.
How will the palestinians outnumber the Israelis? The palestinians have their own "country" now. Don't foresee them outnumbering the Jews in Israel any time soon...unless you are now admitting that I am correct and "palestine" does not exist.
I recall reading several years ago that the Arab population of Israel has been increasing relative to the Jewish population as a result of Israeli settlements or other Israel policies and, depending on events, may eventually outnumber the Jewish population. I believe Thomas Friedman has warned about this in his columns in the NY Times. I probably should have said "if the Arab population becomes the majority in Israel." This has been called a "perceived demographic threat." Here's what Wikipedia has to say about this matter:
Perceived demographic threat
Main article: Demographic threat#Israel
In the northern part of Israel the percentage of Jewish population is declining.[78] The increasing population of Arabs within Israel, and the majority status they hold in two major geographic regions – the Galilee and the Triangle — has become a growing point of open political contention in recent years. Dr. Wahid Abd Al-Magid, the editor of Al-Ahram Weekly's "Arab Strategic Report" predicts that "The Arabs of 1948 (i.e. Arabs who stayed within the bounds of Israel and accepted citizenship) may become a majority in Israel in 2035, and they will certainly be the majority in 2048."[79] Among Arabs, Muslims have the highest birth rate, followed by Druze, and then Christians.[80] The phrase demographic threat (or demographic bomb) is used within the Israeli political sphere to describe the growth of Israel's Arab citizenry as constituting a threat to its maintenance of its status as a Jewish state with a Jewish demographic majority.
Israeli historian Benny Morris stated in 2004 that while he strongly opposes expulsion of Israeli Arabs, in case of an "apocalyptic" scenario where Israel comes under total attack with non-conventional weapons and comes under existential threat, an expulsion might be the only option. He compared the Israeli Arabs to a "time bomb" and "a potential fifth column" in both demographic and security terms and said they are liable to undermine the state in time of war.[81]
Several politicians[82][83] have viewed the Arabs in Israel as a security and demographic threat.[84][85][86]
The term "demographic bomb" was famously used by Benjamin Netanyahu in 2003[87] when he noted that if the percentage of Arab citizens rises above its current level of about 20 percent, Israel will not be able to maintain a Jewish demographic majority. Netanyahu's comments were criticized as racist by Arab Knesset members and a range of civil rights and human rights organizations, such as the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.[88] Even earlier allusions to the "demographic threat" can be found in an internal Israeli government document drafted in 1976 known as the Koenig Memorandum, which laid out a plan for reducing the number and influence of Arab citizens of Israel in the Galilee region.
In 2003, the Israeli daily Ma’ariv published an article entitled, "Special Report: Polygamy is a Security Threat," detailing a report put forth by the Director of the Population Administration at the time, Herzl Gedj; the report described polygamy in the Bedouin sector a “security threat” and advocated means of reducing the birth rate in the Arab sector.[89] The Population Administration is a department of the Demographic Council, whose purpose, according to the Israeli Central Bureau of Statistics is: “...to increase the Jewish birthrate by encouraging women to have more children using government grants, housing benefits, and other incentives.”[90] In 2008 the Minister of the Interior appointed Yaakov Ganot as new head of the Population Administration, which according to Haaretz is "probably the most important appointment an interior minister can make."[91]
A study released in 2011 showed that Israel's Jewish population had increased, while the Israeli-Arab population declined. The study showed that in 2010, Jewish birthrates rose by 31% and 19,000 diaspora Jews immigrated to Israel, while the Arab birthrate fell by 1.7%.[92]
Land and population exchange
Survey among residents of Um Al-Fahm
Prefer joining Palestinian State
11%
Prefer continued Israeli jurisdiction
83%
No opinion
6%
Source: Kul Al-Arab, 2000[93]
Respondents opposed joining future Palestinian State
Prefer to remain in democratic regime with high living standards
54%
Satisfied with present situation
18%
Not willing to make sacrifices for creation of Palestinian state
14%
No stated reason
11%
Source: Kul Al-Arab, 2000[93]
Some Israeli politicians advocate land-swap proposals in order to assure a continued Jewish majority within Israel. A specific proposal is that Israel transfer sovereignty of part of the Arab-populated Wadi Ara area (west of the Green Line) to a future Palestinian state, in return for formal sovereignty over the major Jewish settlement "blocks" that lie inside the West Bank east of the Green Line.[94]
Avigdor Lieberman of Yisrael Beiteinu, the fourth largest faction in the 17th Knesset, is one of the foremost advocates of the transfer of large Arab towns located just inside Israel near the border with the West Bank (e.g. Tayibe, Umm al-Fahm, Baqa al-Gharbiyye), to the jurisdiction of the Palestinian National Authority in exchange for Israeli settlements located inside the West Bank.[95][96][97][98][99][100][101][102]
In October 2006, Yisrael Beiteinu formally joined in the ruling government's parliamentary coalition, headed by Kadima. After the Israeli Cabinet confirmed Avigdor Lieberman's appointment to the position of Minister for Strategic Threats, Labour Party representative and Science, Sport and Culture Minister Ophir Pines-Paz, resigned his post.[49][103] In his resignation letter to Ehud Olmert, Pines-Paz wrote, "I couldn't sit in a government with a minister who preaches racism."[104]
The Lieberman Plan caused a stir among Arab citizens of Israel. Various polls show that Arabs in Israel do not wish to move to the West Bank or Gaza if a Palestinian state is created there.[105] In a survey conducted by Kul Al-Arab among 1,000 residents of Um Al-Fahm, 83 percent of respondents opposed the idea of transferring their city to Palestinian jurisdiction, while 11 percent supported the proposal and 6 percent did not express their position.[93]
Of those opposed to the idea, 54% said that they were against becoming part of a Palestinian state because they wanted to continue living under a democratic regime and enjoying a good standard of living. Of these opponents, 18% said that they were satisfied with their present situation, that they were born in Israel and that they were not interested in moving to any other state. Another 14% of this same group said that they were not prepared to make sacrifices for the sake of the creation of a Palestinian state. Another 11 percent cited no reason for their opposition.[93]Nothing beats a study and a few facts , Ralph. Unsupported opinions are never taken seriously!
Ralph, the stats don't prove much because there is a large Orthodox Jewish contingent (perhaps not quite 50%, but, still, you get the point) in Israel with a very high birth rate that will likely continue to match and offset that of the muslims. Not that simple...plus, I assume that most Jews might start putting more importance on having more children if they really start getting worried.
Aren't the orthodox jews denying Palestine as their country? Unfortunately for you Paul stats count.
Again it shows that you are absolutely have no idea how things work there. Orthodox (especially Ultra-Orthodox) Jews are NOT denying that this is their homeland. What you call former Palestine (actually, for Jews the historical name was Palestina and had nothing to do with Arabs invention of Palestine), so what you call "former palestine" is historically Jewish land and Orthodox Jews pray for this land, they DO consider it their land given to Jews by God. First, God gave the land- 'To your descendants I have given this land..."' (Genesis 15:18). Then God defined the borders of the land that he had given to the Jews- Genesis 15:18-21
from the Wadi of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates— the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”
Then later God promised to bring Jews back to the Land from all the exiles- Ezekiel 37:21-28
I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22 I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms."
So, since Orthodox recognize no other laws except TANACH, they stand for the land as Jewish Land. They do not recognize the state of Israel as Governmental Institution.... this difference you have to understand.The voice of knowledge and it comes from a real jew.
http://youtu.be/TVegg5V8JlAAsk them! But you are definitively not included since you strictly obey to the zionist vision of former Palestine. It is interesting to see that religious scholars are in radical opposition with your idea of judaism. Several times you called upon your rabbi to justify your opinion whereas true religious people are in total denial with your cause.
You have no idea who I am or if I have ever called upon a rabbi. You have no clue as to my cause or even if I have a cause.
Once again, your words are empty and uninformed.
But as usual you are quick to make an assumption which we all know what happens when ones assumes. Just ask Felix Unger.I do know who you are, your answers speak for you. You can't hide. You are a zionist that justifies her intolerant views through propagnadist pictures, through biased information, through your rabbi's one-sided view of the world.
So far, I am not the one who opposes the zionists on the video link but scholar religious jews. Maybe you should go and read, with attention, the judaic scriptures instead of taking for granted what any rabbi will preach.If you listen to the video really attentively (which is very difficult) you can hear that this so-called Jew is so contradictory.... he contradicts himself all the time, he swings around the facts, mixing in one pot scripture and propaganda. Only another one of the same craziness can find something of interest in that "speech". Less of all he is a "scholar".
And obviously you are a summity in religious matter. People like you are afraid of them because they speak the truth and they corner you in your false argumentation. None of the zionists surrounding him challenged him intellectually, for a good reason.
you have no clue of who I am.
but you over and over again have proved who you are, for
“Only fool keeps mocking perseverance.”
Maxoxam, please understand that wavegirl is American. It is very common in America to be anti-palestinian, or at least not sympathize with the palestinian cause. Most of the people that are in favor of Israel in America are christians (given the fact that the US is 94% christian, this fact is obvious)...hardly an outlook only expressed by this "Zionist Jew" that you seem to speak of. Seriously. Wavegirl lives in America. If she was that much of a Zionist, she would live in Israel.
Since when zionists live only in former Palestine? Former IMF chairman is a famous zionist. Plenty of Americans are zionists, again, check your "facts"!
Zionism is the national movement for the return of the Jewish people to their homeland and the resumption of Jewish sovereignty in the Land of Israel. Nationalism is a proudness for one own nation.
However, people like you got all mixed up and use the words "zionism" and "nationalism" as synonyms to the word "chauvinism", which is absolutely incorrect.
You and are like you are Chauvinists! This is a huge difference.
@Paul Chesler - Every post he has made confirms that when he says "Anti-Zionist", it really means "Anti-Jew. His continual use of "Anti-Zionism" is simply cover for "Palestinianism." He is could be the poster boy for how anti-Zionism has become a cover for Anti-Semitism.
All he is really doing is looking to scapegoat Jews and blame them for all the problems of society without looking overly anti-semitic.
I challenge Max to prove me wrong on this and to define the difference between being Anti- Zionist as opposed to being an Anti Semite.By the way, while it is true that somebody can live outside of Israel and be a Zionist, support of Israel is no proof of one being a Zionist. Maxoxam, if you knew how much of America supports Israel, you might start to understand. Do you call many of the christians in the US zionists? By the way, what is wrong with being a zionist? The concept of being a zionist has no impilication of violent leanings, only a Jew's longing for his/her home country in the same way that these palestinians that you speak of supposedly (read: don't really) do.
What I was saying is that if wavegirl's feelings for Israel were as strong as you imply, then she would have already moved there. No contradiction in anything there. True, there are zionists in America, but many of them end up moving to Israel...there are 100,000 American Jewish immigrants living in Israel today.
Too bad this will go over his head as most common sense does. . . it would be interesting though to finally hear him define the difference between being Anti- Zionist as opposed to being an Anti Semite.
I know you are expecting an answer from our highly educated Max (good luck on your expectations...), but let me offer my thought- nowadays anti-Zionist is merely another word for what was before "anti-Semite"....
"antisemitism" is not cool anymore, no one buys it.... so they just came up with "anti-zionism" by taking the real essence out of it and implementing same old hatred into it.....
Now, let's wait for a definition, which Maxi might offer us....Not likely he will ever define this, as you and I have both asked to understand his definition of an anti-zionist.
So while we wait, I thought this was shareable for this forum thread.
If you don't know the difference between a zionist and a jew you should confront Rony Brauman and Arno Klarsfeld. I am not here to teach you what you should know. Aren't you the zionist after all? And what a sense of humor! It just displays the reality of oppression. What is fun for a zionist is a harsh reality for a palestinian. Very despising.
Rony Brauman and Arno Klarsfeld are not in this conversation. Though you have tried to be a part of it, once again you have shown us you are full of empty words with not much to back up any sort of comprehension of what is going on.
You seem to like to call things out but you obviously have no clue. Does not surprise me that once again you have been asked to back up your words, and once again you cant.
Maxoxam, first of all, "anti-semitism" is a somewhat common term-misnomer to some degree albeit- for "anti-Jewish." Also, if you think that the christians don't like Israel, then you know nothing of the evangellical sect of christians. They are some of the most pro-Israel folks in the US (and you clearly have not seen any public opinion polls from the US on the middle east issues, because you would be thoroughly refuted by the clear Pro-Israel stance of the US public). You should read up on this. As far as wavegirl's cartoon, she was merely trying to demonstrate the futility of palestinian attempts at boycotting Israeli products, etc., figuring for their great dependency.
My point entirely. Already 25-30% right away in favor of Israel. You haven't touched all the other sects that are also mostly pro-Israel. Read up on the matter. America loves Israel, whether or not you do.
Yes, the Orthodox Jews also deny the existence of "Palestine" and maintain that only Israel exists. That doesn't change the simple fact: Either the Jews have little to be worried about in the future about being outnumbered in their own country, or Palestine does not exist. Pick one (personally, I believe that Palestine does not exist).
Paul,
This has to be one of the more brilliant responses in this entire thread.
+1 and then some.
Avigdor Lieberman, charged with fraud, stepping down.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/15/world … ns.html?hpand this has to do with the Palestinians ... ?
"He is accused of promoting Israel’s former ambassador to Belarus for another post after the ambassador gave him confidential information regarding an Israeli police investigation into Mr. Lieberman’s activities."
I suppose, the world knows bigger crimes
"Mr. Lieberman will not face charges on the underlying, more serious case, in which he was suspected of receiving millions of dollars from international tycoons with business interests in Israel through companies formally led by family members or associates.
"Israel’s attorney general, Yehuda Weinstein, said Thursday in a report announcing his decision that he could not adequately prove a link between Mr. Lieberman and the money, though he said, “The suspicions against Lieberman’s series of intricate and intertwined, underhanded actions cannot be ruled out.” "
NY Times 12-14-12 (linked above)Ralph, you should know by now you can't discuss anything negative about the Israeli Government. Apparently, Liebermans's underhanded deals, the fact that he lives on land that he doesn't legitimately own, his ethnocentric polices- er no, correction- his racism- are completely irrelevant. The Israeli Government and their system of apartheid and oppression are necessary, they demonstrate what a wonderful, humanitarian bunch the Government really are. If it wasn't so tragic, it'd be hilarious.
Paradigmsearch lights a candle in the hopes that this thread will die. Fat chance...
This thread should have been dead long ago. All sound reasons were said. Only blind and deaf cannot tell reality from lies. But in hope that some one might come across and found the truth here, I am still working on gathering the info together to post it as an underlying final accord.
But, if you wish, you may just un-follow this thread and save your candle.Unfortunately, this thread title keeps being shoved in my face here, there, and everywhere. Paradigmsearch lights second candle...
Unfortunately, this thread title keeps being shoved in my face here, there, and everywhere. Paradigmsearch lights second candle...
edit: my previous post seems to have disappeared. So this is a redux.PDS, as much as I love you, you can only usually see one side of the Arabs; the Muslim side. I know what it's like to grow up with a very Irish name in Britain during the troubles, to be told by your friends that you have to stay on the doorstep because their parents wont have you in the house, they believe that your dad's a member of the IRA. I can't even begin to imagine how the Palestinians feel, so this thread is important to all who are here.
I love you, too. And that will never change. Your friendship has been a godsend to me. I know that. Year 2013 will be fun.
Ahh, now you've made me go all soppy. And your friendship has been a god send to me too, and believe me, as an atheist that is BIG news.
2013 will be loads of fun and we, my friend, will prosper.
Hebron Palestinian group declares third intifada
A video released Saturday purports to show eight Palestinian terrorists from the West Bank city of Hebron declaring the start of the third intifada and announcing the creation of a united front against Israel, set to include representatives from groups both political and militant, such as Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PLO).
In the video, eight men with covered heads and faces, one of them holding Islam’s holy book, the Quran, can be seen.
According to Ynet News, the men announced in Arabic that they support the recent UN recognition of the Palestinian National Authority as an observer state, but add that more remains to be done — a conquest of “all of Palestine, from the sea to the river,” in a third intifada spreading “from the heart of Hebron to all of Palestine.”
The men also reportedly said that if Israel continues to make arrests in the West Bank, they will kidnap IDF soldiers. They warned that if Israel were to kill Palestinians, they would retaliate “with an iron fist.”
Meanwhile on Saturday, Palestinians and settlers clashed outside the settlement of Yitzhar, in the West Bank. One Palestinian woman was injured by rocks and evacuated to a Nablus hospital. Security forces used riot dispersal measures to restore peace and quiet in the area.
On Friday, some 3,000 Palestinian protesters marched from Hebron’s city hall toward an Israeli checkpoint, as part of demonstrations throughout the territories marking the 25th anniversary of the Hamas terrorist organization.
IDF and Border Police forces stationed near the checkpoint, which guards the city’s Jewish neighborhoods, fired tear gas canisters to disperse the protesters after they began throwing rocks at one of the Jewish-owned homes.
Here is a link to the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE-9bwNY … r_embeddedPeople view life and events in two different ways. Some see them as they are on the surface, i.e. the "natural" order of things. Others see them on a much deeper and more penetrating level. This is what the Psalmist meant when he said, "A fool will not comprehend this." What seems obvious and revealed to the person of faith is viewed entirely differently by the one without faith.
No longer will a president of the US have to bow to the all powerful Israel lobby . . .some things just make me laugh.Ok, people without faith are fools- whatever. Some things just make me laugh.
I knew you would not get it. Glad I gave you a good giggle today.
I thank you- because you've given me many.
I always find it most interesting that you had nothing to say of these guys.
Seems to be a new formed group declaring a third intifada. Hamas, Fatah, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PLO) are all getting together. I must say I am really interested to hear your thoughts on this.My thoughts are that I'm not surprised that this is the case if it is. Religious extremism will continue to grow where there is grinding poverty and low levels of education. Every time Israel kills an Arab they've just mad another martyr, and another 100 will pop up to take their place. When the Palestinians don't feel that their voices are being heard they'll turn to extremist factions. They clearly feel that they're stronger together than apart.
If Israel and the US were to halt the settlement building and work towards the creation of Palestinian State- extremist organisations would lose a lot of support. It would be the equivalent of throwing salt on a slug.Thank you for making my point that it is time that the Pals take responsibility and educate their children If children on a daily basis are being indoctrinated to see Jews and Israelis as innately demoniac, then how can they ever grow up to accept a Jewish state and not work to destroy it.
“Judaism is a distorted, corrupted falsified religion” … the Jews’ “evil nature is drawn from Adam’s first son,” Cain… “And the conflict between us and the Jews is not a conflict about land and borders, but rather a conflict about faith and existence.” –PA religion teacher, Sheikh Ishaq Feleifel
And where is the Arab League who pledged in early December to provide the PA with $100 million to cover salaries and expenses. The League’s undersecretary for Palestinian affairs told the Ma’an News Agency last Friday that none of that money had been transferred to the PA, and that no date had been set for any such transfers from Arab states.
I suppose getting the Pals out of their economic situation is on Israels shoulders.
If the Pals want to be a state isnt it time they take responsibility for their poverty levels?
What unites Palestinian Arabs is their opposition to Jewish nationalism and a desire to stamp it out – not aspirations for their own state. Murdering Jews is a collective Arab effort that requires a collectively sensible response.
Are you saying that extremist factions are something in the Arab world that is only happening in Gaza and the West Bank? It is Israel's fault that extremist factions exist in the Middle East?Thank you for making my point that it is time that the Pals take responsibility and educate their children If children on a daily basis are being indoctrinated to see Jews and Israelis as innately demoniac, then how can they ever grow up to accept a Jewish state and not work to destroy it.
On this I completely agree with you, the Palestinians should use the revenue which they've raised in taxes to build a civil society, as do other nations, which includes a a decent education for their children. Now that we finally agree on something, will you lobby the Israeli g'ment to ensure that all the Palestinian revenue which is collected by the Israeli g'ment, with the exception of bills for water and electricity- is actually passed on to the Palestinians- after all it's theirs, not Israels? And no, there is no historical claim derived from the Torah or any other source, which states that revenues collected from Palestinians belong to Israel. Apart from the water and electricity bills owed to companies which are also owned by the Israeli g'ment, Israel has no rights to that revenue.
"Israel controls a significant portion of the PA economy both directly and indirectly. Israel collects duties on foreign imports headed for the Palestinian territories and charges value added tax (VAT) on Israeli goods and services headed for those areas. These totaled about $75 million per month in 2005, according to the Israeli Ministry of Finance. Out of this figure, Israel withholds money to pay the PA's water and electricity bills, which Palestinians have refused to pay for years to protest Israeli occupation. Israel withholds about $15 million each month to cover these bills. That leaves about $60 million that Israel would normally pass along to the PA; however, since the Hamas government was elected, Israel has been withholding this revenue."
http://www.cfr.org/economics/hamas-shri … get/p10499
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2008/06/0 … 6320080604
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world … 42092.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/ … 9V20121212
And where is the Arab League who pledged in early December to provide the PA with $100 million to cover salaries and expenses. The League’s undersecretary for Palestinian affairs told the Ma’an News Agency last Friday that none of that money had been transferred to the PA, and that no date had been set for any such transfers from Arab states.
Lots of countries have pledged aid to Palestine, whether they follow through is another thing altogether. However, recent events suggest that the tide is turning- oh,and there's the whole new question of Palestinian rights again, now they have some. If they choose, they are able to pursue Israel through the ICC-Emm, withholding tax revenues, obstructing economic progress (do you remember that, it's the part in the UN report which you introduced but don't want to discuss?) And that's before other acts of terrorism have even been touched on. Remind me, why is Israel so worried about the ICC, and why did they put so much pressure on other nations to oppose the Palestinian's bid for statehood again?
I suppose getting the Pals out of their economic situation is on Israels shoulders.
Absolutely not! The Israelis just need to release money which is not theirs but belongs legitimately to the Palestinians. Theft is a crime.
What unites Palestinian Arabs is their opposition to Jewish nationalism and a desire to stamp it out – not aspirations for their own state. Murdering Jews is a collective Arab effort that requires a collectively sensible response.
Within some factions this is true. Nevertheless, what really unites Palestinians is the fact that until very recently, the only groups who would listen to their voice were extremists. But that's all changing now, so your point is irrelevant.
Are you saying that extremist factions are something in the Arab world that is only happening in Gaza and the West Bank? It is Israel's fault that extremist factions exist in the Middle East?
No, it's not Israel's fault that religious extremists dominate in the Mid East, it's Israel's fault that extremists continue to recruit in the Mid East because Israel refuse to adhere to international law. Because the Torah claims that it is ok to drive people from the land, take their homes and deprive them of basic human rights- extremists groups can legitimately claim that they are no more extreme that Israel, and they're succeeding.If it were not for Israel, they would be recruiting on the basis of the "hedonistic west"(that's us, the Americans, by the way). Also remember that we must give it a few months because there is actually another $200 million in back electric bills that Israel says it is withholding the money to pay off. Let's wait and see if Israel starts turning over the money once the $200 million is paid off. That is about a month in the future by the way. Israel does not base it's ownership claims only on the bible...they base it on history, the Jews were there first of the three major religions. On the other hand, as far as extremism goes, the quran clearly advocates forcible conversion. "In mecca mohamed converted tens with politics, but elsewhere he converted thousands with warfare" -Quran.
Paul, before you reply to me, please do some research as to what is owed to Israel for water and electricity in comparison to what is collected each month in revenues. Then, find a calculator and work it all out. When it comes to economics, religious texts are about as useful as a chocolate fireguard.
Also, provide some evidence. It is not my responsibility to consistently provide evidence to discredit your claims. When you make a claim, the burden of proof lies with you dear.funny how often you call the kettle black.
Why will you not allow Paul to answer for himself? What are you afraid of? And if you are to keep accusing me of calling the kettle black, could you supply some evidence please. I asked Paul for evidence, II'm always willing to offer some. Why do you feel the need for insults?
It is no secret that the Jewish lobby is the biggest in Washington, (yes, even bigger than the NRA's) so why is it surprising that we should hear that KIDS GET KILLED by GUNS.
I know, you will say "guns don't kill people, people kill people".
Kids do not know religion, until adults teach them. What ever side you are, or whatever side you think is right, WE ARE THE PROBLEM. When we can learn to teach our children, that the killing of ANY child is wrong, THEN we can start talk about God, any God. Until then nothing will get better. Stop questioning why it happened and start thinking, HOW it could have happened. If kids get killed in Palestine, Israel or the United States, WE are to blame. Recognize it. Accept it. Cry about it, then try and stop it happening ANYWHERE.
wavegirl22 - And by the way, this is nothing to do with religion but only logic: The more repressive you are; the more people will not like you.
I can not find when, in the history books that since the State of Israel was formed(by man not God) that Israel has shown compassion to anyone, yet always expects it. Acceptance of other's beliefs, doesn't mean you have to eat a pig's butt.
Christians - Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.
Arabic - ajmil at-tihānī bimunāsabah al-mīlād wa ḥilūl as-sanah al-jadīdah
Israeli - What????????????Here is a clear example of manipulation with young minds, of raising a new generations of monsters.
Beautiful Arab children.... listen what they say....
"Martyrdom better than this world"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl … dPb1bF-s4MThe State of Israel has been busy defending itself for the last 64 years since it's founding. It usually has it's hands so busy and all of it's resources allocated to self defense that it is impossible for it to enter frays in aid of other countries. If it gets spread thin in a conflict not central to it's own needs, it puts itself at risk, more so than probably any other country in the world. Between of it's only 64 years of existence so far and constant state of danger, it is no wonder that it has not been able to help other nations very often.
If this were an emerging nation in Africa there would not even be a debate about supporting them but the Anti-Semitism is so pervasive...
Barefootfae.
So true.
Like Reu Vera and I, would you like to hear what MAXOXAM41 definition is of Anti- Zionistism?Which word did you use wavegirl? Zionistism? Flagrant proof that you don't even know the vocabulary that you are using, then, why using it? If you are more confortable in the cosmetics world, please be my guest!
She made a grammatical mistake...just like you have made many times throughout this thread. Don't make me cut and paste some of the things that you have said...everybody makes mistakes.
Then what is her excuse for her confusion between anti-zionism and antisemitism, paul (her savior)?
you mean your confusion.
Once again, you go on the attack but there is nothing of substance in your words. You cant define either one.
Since it is clear your understanding of history is very tainted, once must surmise you don't know very much.
All you really are is like a leaf that doesn't know it is part of a tree.
Her excuse is that she made a grammatical mistake, like you have many times (more than she has)...as I said, don't make me embarass you and start cutting and pasting some of your posts.
You made me do it...here is one of your somewhat incoherent statements:
"I'm not asking why, I know the answer. I'm justifying your biased point of you."
I guess we understand what that means to some level, but if you want to pick on somebody for adding an e and a t to a word by mistake, then this is total fair game. There's a lot more of your comments like this one too, so don't fight this and dig yourself deeper.
So I guess it's only in Palestine that the christians are persecuted! The question that is torturing my soul is why in Syria, Lebanon... in most Arab and muslim countries aren't they massacred? Is it proper to Palestine or is it because it is simply propaganda? Most Arab countries are muslim but not theocracies therefore not imposing religious laws. In fact, I don't remember hearing on the news that christians in Iran are constantly harassed and killed by the religious majority. The countries susceptible to cause trouble to religious minorities would be Afghanistan or Pakistan. Countries that retrograded thanks to our meddling in private matters.
Here is an interesting read for you RAFKEN
http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-an … o-newtownsAs I was perusing pages on youtube, I stumbled upon Shlomo Sand (professor in Tel-Aviv) negating the jews as a nation-race. If as he emphasized it, it is the case where is their legitimacy on the palestinian land? According to him, it is a community though its religion and not through its dna tracing, isn't it interesting. Following his logic, therefore it is a concept, in fact like being an American although you can trace any American to his/her country of country. It explained why they were everywhere but in Palestine.
and once again you can not tell us what your definition of zionism is. Considering you keep referring to me as such, I believe many would like you to back that statement up.
You seem to make many judgements on my life and since this is what you seem to define me, I think it is only fair that you finally define Zionism.Let me tell you that I, at least, can differentiate a jew to a zionist, and that, according to your statements, you definitely endorse Klarsfeld's zionist ideals. I have nothing to prove to someone who doesn't even know her own historical background.
again attack, and of course you show us nothing but your lack of knowledge.
Maxoxam, technically, you can make this argument about any religion, etc. Islam was invented in 684 CE. What's their claim to the land of Israel? Clearly they arrived a little too late to have any historical claim to point to themselves. The Jews were there in 1000 BCE. Only a 1,684 year difference. Not much, huh? They vanished from their land for a certain amount of time because they were exiled. That's the reason. Once they started being allowed to return (1860), you can check your history books...they started returning. The small remnant of Jews that remained throughout the whole exile was persecuted, constantly murdered and in hiding for centuries.
Enough of your cut and paste blah, blah. Any person in the world is traceable through their dna, in effect you will find a land that belongs to her or him. Genetics proved that the modern jews as a concept is NOT attached to what they love to call the land of Israel. How interesting. For your knowledge, Sand's book "the invention of the Jewish people" says it all. It is definitely a book that will be in my library.
How then do you say that Israel should return land to the palestinians? If possession is most of the law as you seem to imply, then Israel currently possesses it. Where is your argument? I was merely commenting that even if you wanted to trace the land's ownership back, you would still find it's current inhabitant, the Jews, were the owners before Islam existed. Which argument would you prefer to advance? Either way, the Jews own Israel.
Also, if you want to talk about a land being central to a religion, then why do the muslims have a right to any spot in Israel? Their "holiest" spot is Mecca. The mount in Jerusalem is a paltry "third holiest" in Islam. That spot, for your information, is THE holiest spot in Judaism.Firstly why do you mix Arabs, Palestinians, Mecca as one uniform group. Before the Arabs' invasion, I don't recall that the Palestinians were Arabs. If they ever be. They speak Arabic and some are muslims and it is the only link that unites them to the Arabs from Saudi Arabia. Even Saladin was born in Turkey, if my memory doesn't betray me. If you start with a fallacious argumentation how can you be credible?
Once again, since when is the bible a historical document to support any rational argumentation?I'm not mixing a bunch of things...until recently, the term "palestinian" did not even exist. The palestinians are just plain and simple muslims of arabic descent if you trace them back. So my statement makes a lot of sense (maybe not to you because your mind is not open to what I have to say). The bible was recorded far before 684 CE, so it is impossible for it to mention anything about islam. You, maxoxam, are the one who needs to check his history.
Any resemblance between Philistines and Palestinians? The bible is NOT a historical document.
First of all, if you reject the bible as a reliable historical document, then you throw out the mere concept of the existence of phillistines...and I am not referencing the bible for any history, which is very clear...you just don't even seem to know enough to know what you do not know. Second of all, the phillistines mentioned in the bible are a totally different people both if you trace them back genetically and religion wise. They are called a fairly similar name because when it is not being referred to as Israel, the area has usually been referred to as Phillistia...or in later times, palestine. The area that they inhabited (many of the phillistines were in gaza) is the only common thread between the two. You are yet to adduce any reasonable proof on your end that the Jews are not more entitiled to Israel than the palestinians are...after all, the muslims (they weren't called palestinians until about 40-60 years ago depending on when you want to say) have been in Israel for half of the years that the Jews have had at least a minority...and for over 1,000 years a majority- in the country. The jews' historical ownership of Israel is clear and indisputable.
Bring me an unbiased historical document and I will listen. Otherwise don't waste my time. Once again you are using the bible. It is the problem with religious extremists (intolerant, racist and biased) like you or wavegirl, there's no rationale behind their discourse. They will use erroneous data to make their point.
Precedently, you asserted that the jewish community was superior numerally in former Palestine versus in Europe before the second world war and you were wrong. And, it was not the first time I caught you in a lie.No I did not...I stated that they had a significant population...if you buy a product that is a significant source of Vitamin C, it can typically have 20% of your daily value...I was very correct in my usage of terms...you just clearly have a somewhat poor command of english. I did not use the bible at all for my history...as I said, you just don't know enough to know what you do not know. Check some unbiased history books out. They are available in nearly any library. Then come back and stop wasting our time.
Yes, you did. I shut you down by bringing a fact. Any high school students know it! I guess you spent more time at your bible study or front of the tv set (since you are reciting perfectly the slogan for vitamin C products) versus on your school bench.
Like you finally admitted that your French was more Canadian than French. You can't fool me. I unmasked you.
Jerusalem is not mentioned in Koran at all.... Not only Arabs occupied the Holiest place for Jews- Temple Mount (Har haBáyith), but they are constantly vandalizing and destroying archaeological antiquities.
Here is an article (I am quoting some):
A new report finds that the Islamic Waqf is continuing to destroy Jewish antiquities on the Temple Mount and disposing of them in the garbage in a direct violation of a ruling by the Israeli Supreme Court.
Unfortunately, the Islamic Waqf has a long history of destroying Jewish antiquities in the Temple Mount area. In 1996, the Islamic Waqf converted two ancient underground Second Temple period structures into a new large mega-mosque that can accommodate 10,000 people. Both structures, known as Solomon’s Stables and the Eastern Hulda Gate passageway, were never mosques before throughout history. The construction work carried out for this mosque, which is now the largest mosque in Israel, resulted in the destruction of many ancient Jewish antiquities. Solomon’s Stables had enormous historical value. During the Herodian era, it was a pivotal part of the Jewish Temple.
But as if that was not bad enough, in November 1999, the Islamic Waqf opened an “emergency exit” to the new mosque. In the process of constructing this emergency exit, thousands of tons of ancient fill from the site were dumped in Kidron Valley. Israeli archeologists later were to find in the garbage artifacts dating as early as the First Temple period. But as if that were not bad enough, in February and March 2001, an ancient arched structure built against the eastern wall of the Temple Mount enclosure was razed by bulldozers in order to further enlarge the “emergency gate” of the new mosque at Solomon’s Stables; and in 2007, the Islamic Waqf caused more damage to Jewish Antiquities while digging ditches to replace power lines.
The removal of debris containing proof of the Jewish Holy Temple under Jewish sovereignty is part of a larger Palestinian Authority campaign to claim exclusive Muslim ownership of the Temple Mount area and that there is no Jewish history there. At the entrance to the Temple Mount, a Waqf sign proclaims, “The Al-Aqsa Mosque courtyard and everything in it is Islamic property.”
A Lesson for maxoxam41
WHAT IS ZIONISM?
Zionism is the modern expression of the ancient Jewish heritage.
Zionism is the national liberation movement of a people exiled from its historic homeland and dispersed among the nations of the world.
Zionism is the redemption of an ancient nation from a tragic lot and the redemption of a land neglected for centuries.
Zionism is the revival of an ancient language and culture, in which the vision of universal peace has been a central theme.
Zionism is the embodiment of a unique pioneering spirit, of the dignity of labour, and of enduring human values.
Zionism is creating a society, however imperfect it may still be, which tries to implement the highest ideals of democracy - political social and cultural - for all the inhabitants of Israel, irrespective of religious belief, race or sex.Then why do so many Jews oppose Zionism, are they antisemites, too? Just a question for consideration, why do so many Jews oppose Zionism?
Interesting that you just asked if so many Jews oppose Zionism are they antisemites. So I defer back to your clear question of consideration.
So are they, or are they not in your opinion?
No no please do tell us first if being an anti zionist is the same thing as being an anti semite. According to your post that is what you said.
I don't believe the two are the same, no, I was under the impression that you did.
You know very well that my definition of Zionism had nothing to do with Anti Semitism.
Sounds more to me, as you continue the same rhetoric you have professed throughout this thread, continue in your efforts the defamation of Israel, which these days has become the primary vehicle for expressing "politically correct" antisemitism.I didn't say that your definition had anything to do with antisemitism. I'd read your earlier posts to Max where either yourself or Reuvera had suggested the two were intertwined- I was interested to see how you developed that perspective. I was curious- why the aggression? What are you frightened of, it was a perfectly reasonable question?
Sounds more to me, as you continue the same rhetoric you have professed throughout this thread, continue in your efforts the defamation of Israel, which these days has become the primary vehicle for expressing "politically correct" antisemitism.
See, still making personal attacks against me by accusing me of being an antisemite, because I wont defend breaches of human rights. In your world, when you can't get your own way- everyone's an antisemite. In my world, and as someone who HAS lost members of my family to antisemitism, who has loved people who have suffered immeasurably- you have no clue just how insulting it is to equate difference of opinion to the terrible suffering that so many Jews have encountered.
This is an exaggeration. Not that many Jews oppose Zionism. And even those who oppose Zionism do not oppose a right of Jews to live in the Holy Land that belongs to Jews. Yes yes, even those who oppose Zionism as a movement DO not deny Jews their right to possess the Hole Land.
The first group of Jews who are anti-Zionists are the Orthodox (mostly Ultra-Orthodox) religious Jews. They consider movement of Zionizm to be a kind of gentile movement. From Ultra-Ortjodox point of view Israel can only be regained miraculously, not through the human attempt, but through the God's role. However, Orthodox absolutely believe in the Jewish right to Israel, but only at that future time of redemption. The Messiah should make it possible, not a humble hard-working secular Jew.
Only gentile anti-Zionist deny the right of Jews on their land. Their anti-Zionism is a synonym of antisemitism.Well, there are many that oppose anti-zionism, that is not an exaggeration. And for the record, I actually don't. I oppose violations of human rights.
And yes, it is the very religious and ultra orthodox which oppose the Jewish state. However, there are not so religious Jews living in Israel- they want two states, they want peace finally. Jews and Arabs HAVE lived in peace previously, they can do so again- but only when BOTH sides stop ignoring the hurt and pain which they have both caused. Both sides.Exactly! Again you and those pro-pals are trying to break through the open door. Throughout all years after state of Israel was established, Jews were saying YES to negotiations, to swapping land for peace.... but Arabs were saying NO.
Here, historical facts:
The Peace process.
Is this true that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is the cause of Palestinian hostility towards Israel? If Israeli’s presence IS the cause of the conflict, than it follows that there was no conflict before the 1967, when Israel was not in the West Bank.
The PLO (the Palestinian Liberation Organization) was created in 1964, when the entire West bank and Gaza was in Arab hands. Israel had no presences in the West bank and Gaza…. What Palestine were they liberating???? The PLO emblem gives us the answer. The PLO was created to remove by force the entire state of Israel from the map of the Middle East- a goal clearly stated by their charter: PLO Charter, Article 15: “….the liquidation of the Zionist presence in Palestine”. This goal was not new.
Let’s take a look at the history:
In 1937 the Peel Commission recommended the division of the land to a Jewish State and an Arab State. The Arab portion would include 96% of the territory that the League of nations had originally designated for the Jewish homeland. This included far more than just the West bank. However, instead of accepting the Jews as peace partners, the Arab leader Haj Amin al-Husseini said NO and found a partner who was closer to his own (Hitler).
In 1947 the United Nations recommended the Partition Plan, which again offered the Arabs far more than just the West Bank. The Jews said Yes. The Arab leaders again said No and lounged the war of extermination (Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon against baby Israel). Israel won that war, established the state, but did not know a day of peace in spite the fact that the neighbors Arabs held the entire West bank. They attacked Israel relentlessly, using the West Bank as a launching pad, until Israel took it over in a war of self-defense in 1967.
After the war the Arab League rejected all attempts at peace and continued to choose force over negotiations.
In 1967 Arab League Summit in the city of Khartoum Arabs again said NO.
In 1993 Israel and Palestinians signed the Oslo Accords where it appeared as if Palestinians finally said Yes…. Israel said YES and gave a territorial control to the Palestinian government it helped to establish. But despite of signing an agreement, the Palestinian’s actions said NO. During the next five years Israel saw significant increase in terrorist attacks, which killed hundreds of Israelis. In 1996 Yasser Arafat declared “We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. Still, Israel was saying YES.
In the summer of 2000, Israel made an incredibly generous offer to the Palestinian Arabs that included Israeli withdrawal from 93% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, to form a Palestinian state. Under the arrangement, the Palestinians would control parts of Jerusalem, including most of the old city, and slivers of Israel to compensate for parts of the West Bank left out. The Palestinian's, led by the father of modern terrorism, Yasser Arafat, not only rejected this offer but responded with a new wave of suicide bombings, sparking the second intifadah.
In 2005 Israel withdrawals from the Gaza strip, uprooting thousands of Israeli citizens. Palestinians increased rocket attacks from Gaza to Israel (179 rocket attacks in 2005 to over 946 in 2006 to over 2,256 rockets in 2012).
In 2008 another Israeli attempt to say YES- Prime minister Olmert accepts almost all Palestinians demands including almost 100% of the West Bank. Palestinian again said NO.So, Reuvera, in the light of all this information that you have posted, and in recognition that Israel have wanted two states previously, why have Israel vehemently opposed Palestine's bid for recognition at the UN? If they have always wanted the same thing?
And by the way, my name is Hollie, I speak for myself. And, by your own accounts, you are a Pro-pal too, because after all you and Israel have always been in favour of a two state solution- so why are you differentiating me from you? I mean, you do support the two states solution don't you?I thought that your name was Hollie, but then in one of his posts Max called you Molly, so I got confused, as I didn't know whether he just made one of his usual typos or he knew your real name... Anyway, the point is not in the names.... After all....
"What means my name to you?..
'Twil die.
As does the melancholy rumor
Of distant waves, or, of a summer,
The forest's hushed nocturnal sigh.
Found on a fading album page,
Dim will it seem and enigmatic,
Like words traced on a tomb, a relic
Of some long dead and vanished age.
What's in my name?..
Long since forgot,
Erased by new, tempestuous passion,
Of tenderness 'twill leave you not
The lingering and sweet impression.
But in an hour of agony,
Pray, speak it, and recall my image,
And say, "He still remembers me,
His heart alone still pays me homage."
A poem by a famous Russian poet Alexander Pushkin
translated by I.Zheleznova.
I am sitting here in my neck of the snowy woods and wondering.... Or I was off the line... or you are majoring and mastering in twistology..... a science of twisting any thing said, expressed and written for the sake of your own understanding.....
Where in the world did I say that I am pro-pals or for a two-state solution? Or that Israel wanted two-state solution? Soon you will blame me of being antisemitic?
I am for one Jewish state with Jerusalem as undivided capital of Israel.
I am for one Jewish state with Jerusalem as undivided capital of Israel
I am for one Jewish state with Jerusalem as undivided capital of Israel
I am for one Jewish state with Jerusalem as undivided capital of Israel
I am for one Jewish state with Jerusalem as undivided capital of Israel
Did I say it enough for you to comprehend my position?
Arabs including "Palestinians" have enough of their own countries and lands. Why would they need a tiny small piece of land, which historically and biblically, as well as archeologically belongs to Jews?
If I did not answer it by my summarizing the problem, then nothing will teach you the truth.... If you were honestly not understanding the problem, this thread has enough information to give you a real picture... If you are deliberately not willing to see the facts, then I give up on you.
However, my hope still remains that whoever stumbles across this threads might get the facts.....56 Islamic countries and 22 Arab states against just one Jewish state
Only Saudi Arabia is Arab, otherwise each state has its own origin. Stop the confusion. 56 countries are muslim, which ones? How many countries are christian?
There are 22 Arab states. What made you think only Saudi Arabia was Arab???
It has been said . .
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
Here Max - http://www.unesco.org/new/en/unesco/wor … ab-states/ maybe you may actually learn something today before you go typing your nonsense.
And as ReuVera has pointed out he comes up with someone like Shlomo Sand to back up his argument. Maybe if he perused his other favorite reference site Wikipedia he may have read the fact that Sand's area of professional expertise is the history of modern France and Europe, and not of antiquity. Yes a mighty fine scholar when it comes to Israel, too bad for Max he is the only one that thinks Sand is a brilliant scholar when it comes to the Jews.
Most would agree the points he makes are comical and usually backed up by his perusing you tube.
As for the above brilliant question I still have trouble what part of the 2 state solution can Hollie not understand, when their can never be a 2 state solution when the Palestinian Authority makes no attempt to educate its people towards peace and coexistence with Israel. On the contrary, from every possible platform it repeatedly rejects Israel's right to exist, presents the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, depicts the establishment of Israel as an act of imperialism, and perpetuates a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all. Israel's destruction is said to be both inevitable and a Palestinian obligation.As for the above brilliant question I still have trouble what part of the 2 state solution can Hollie not understand
I have no problems understanding how a state solution may or may not work.
On the contrary, from every possible platform it repeatedly rejects Israel's right to exist, presents the conflict as a religious battle for Islam, depicts the establishment of Israel as an act of imperialism, and perpetuates a picture of the Middle East, both verbally and visually, in which Israel does not exist at all. Israel's destruction is said to be both inevitable and a Palestinian obligation.
And Israel deny that Palestine has a right to exist also. It doesn't matter how you wrap it up, obtaining land which you have occupied IS an act of imperialism. Also, when you are defending Israel's right to exist, you support your claim with religious texts. Can you honestly not see the mirror image.You seriously need to study some history of the region. Lets take a look at the Six Day War when Israel fought and shed blood to gain the following territories. The Golan Heights, the Eastern Bank of the Sea of Galilee, Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Why is it so hard to understand they were not just awarded or gifted to Israel.
1-In June 1967, there was no state of Palestine. It didn't exist and never had. Its creation, proposed by the UN in 1947, was rejected by the Arab world because it also meant the establishment of a Jewish state alongside.
2- The West Bank and eastern Jerusalem were in Jordanian hands. Violating solemn agreements, Jordan denied Jews access to their holiest places in eastern Jerusalem. To make matters still worse, they destroyed many of those sites.
Meanwhile, the Gaza Strip was under Egyptian control, with harsh military rule imposed on local residents.
And the Golan Heights, which were regularly used to shell Israeli communities far below, belonged to Syria.
3-The Arab world could have created a Palestinian state in the West Bank, eastern Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip any day of the week. They didn't. There wasn't even discussion about it.
4-The 1967 boundary at the time of the war, was nothing more than an armistice line dating back to 1949 -- familiarly known as the Green Line. That's after five Arab armies attacked Israel in 1948 with the aim of destroying the infant Jewish state. They failed. Armistice lines were drawn, but they weren't formal borders. They couldn't be. The Arab world, even in defeat, refused to recognize Israel's very right to exist. And they still do not recognize that Israel on the map.
5- The PLO, which supported the war effort, was established in 1964, three years before the conflict erupted. That's important because it was created with the goal of obliterating Israel.
6-The weeks leading up to the Six-Day War, Egyptian and Syrian leaders repeatedly declared that war was coming and their objective was to wipe Israel off the map. There was no ambiguity. Twenty-two years after the Holocaust, another enemy spoke about the extermination of Jews. The record is well-documented.
7-Egypt's President Gamal Abdel Nasser demanded that UN peacekeeping forces in the area, in place for the previous decade to prevent conflict, be removed. Shamefully, the UN complied. That left no buffer between Arab armies being mobilized and deployed and Israeli forces in a country one-fiftieth the size of Egypt -- and just nine miles wide at its narrowest point.
8-Egypt blocked Israeli shipping lanes in the Red Sea, Israel's only maritime access to trading routes with Asia and Africa. This step was regarded as an act of war by Jerusalem. The United States spoke about joining with other countries to break the blockade, but did not act.
9-France, which had been Israel's principal arms supplier, announced a ban on the sale of weapons on the eve of the June war. That left Israel in potentially grave danger if a war were to drag on and require the resupply of arms. It was not until the next year that the U.S. stepped into the breach and sold vital weapons systems to Israel.
And finally, after winning the war of self-defense, Israel hoped that its newly-acquired territories, seized from Egypt, Jordan, and Syria, would be the basis of a land-for-peace accord. Feelers were sent out. The formal response came on September 1, 1967, when the Arab Summit Conference famously declared in Khartoum "No peace, no recognition, no negotiations" with Israel.
Today, there are those who wish to rewrite history.
They want the world to believe there was once a Palestinian state. There was not. And you and the rest of the world can all thank the Arabs for this.
All wars have consequences; The Six Day War was no exception. The Arab aggressors have failed to take responsibility for the actions they instigated. The basis of the Arab-Israeli conflict prior to 1967 was simply the Arab desire to destroy Israel and that desire still stands today.
Going forward in time. . .In 1978, Israel traded the entire Sinai for peace; Egypt has recently demonstrated that withdrawals from land are permanent but promises of peace are not. In 2000, Israel offered the Palestinians a state on substantially all the West Bank and Gaza; they declined in favor of a barbaric war on Israeli civilians. In 2001, after Israel accepted the Clinton Parameters, the Palestinians rejected them. In 2005, Israel removed every settler and soldier from Gaza, and got a rocket war in return. In 2008, Israel offered a state again, and got no response at all.
The three Israeli offers of a Palestinian state were three more than Egypt or Jordan offered during their illegal occupation of Gaza and the West Bank from 1948 to 1967. Still today the Palestinians refuse to negotiate. They reject “two states for two peoples,” insist they will “never” recognize a Jewish state, demand a “right of return” to reverse history, and insist on borders repositioning the parties to the same lines that led to the war 45 years ago.
"If the Arabs put down their weapons there would be no more violence. If The Jews put down their weapons today there would be no more Israel'
So now I ask you where is the religious text you claim that I am supporting in Israels right to existence. I have just given you a short summary of the Six Day War and some of the attempts that Israel has tried to make peace with. And please do explain where the 'imperialism' exists that you so easily accuse Israel of.
So, if you're not in favour of a two state solution- are you at odds with the things that the Israeli government purportedly wants- ie, two states? No twistology, whatever that might mean. I'm just trying to understand your position.
I would say that the concept of 2-state solution is like a rubber balloon- whoever can put there whatever meaning.
The point is that Israel is a country of Jews, always belonged to Jews, Jew lived there always. So, Arabs, let them be! Build your Gaza, build your own economy. But, no.... they want to take and ruin the land of Jews.
All attempts to claim Arab sovereignty over Israel of today, should be seen with what the Arab true intention is. The destruction of Israel as a Jewish state and the only supporter of the Judeo-Christian Western civilization in the Middle East.
Arabs are not interested in building gaza as their sovereign "country". They are interested to eliminate (wipe out) Israel.@ Wavegirl.
You seriously need to study some history of the region. Lets take a look at the Six Day War when Israel fought and shed blood to gain the following territories. The Golan Heights, the Eastern Bank of the Sea of Galilee, Sinai Peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Why is it so hard to understand they were not just awarded or gifted to Israel.
And you seriously need to consider what imperialism actually means. In your very own words, you have just exemplified Israel's imperialistic agenda- and you haven't even realised it. Here, let me help, below is a widely accepted definition of imperialism.
1. The policy of extending a nation's authority by territorial acquisition or by the establishment of economic and political hegemony over other nations.
2. The system, policies, or practices of such a government.
In other words,
"Iit means a strong nation that seeks to dominate other countries either politically, socially, or economically. Belief in the desirability of gaining colonies and dependants, or extending a country's influence though means such as trading, diplomacy or military conquest."
Until you can fully recognise and acknowledge what imperialism actually means, what it actually is, there is no point taking this conversation forth, because clearly you prefer your own definitions to universally accepted ones.You seriously need to get a grip on what war means. And what it means to be attacked continually.
Hide behind you imperialism and your apartheid and anything else you try to make a case of.
Israel was not created in order to disappear - Israel will endure and flourish. It is the child of hope and the home of the brave. It can neither be broken by adversity nor demoralized by success. It carries the shield of democracy and it honors the sword of freedom.
John F. KennedyHide behind you imperialism and your apartheid and anything else you try to make a case of.
Unfortunately, it is you who is hiding behind apartheid and imperialism. It is not my fault that did not know what imperialism means- don't shoot the messenger.And once again . .you just dont get it. It is really pathetic when media, politicians, and just every day people refer to Israel as an Imperialist or Expansionist occupier. Imperialism refers to that process by which a metropolitan capitalist class in a mature market society fashions and pursues essential interests in far-flung, less developed hinterlands; this in order to overcome inpediments to the realization of conventional standards of profit—i.e., the hinterland intensifies the rate of surplus value by providing cheapened factors of production, especially labor, and hence more rewarding outlets for existing capital formations. Territorial annexation or formal political control, although often instruments of imperialism, are hardly its central intention.
The Nazi's a particularly pernicious example of intra-European regressive imperialism was the Nazi aggression during World War II, which gave the German business cartels and the Nazi state an opportunity to plunder the resources and exploit the labor of occupied Europe, including the slave labor of concentration camps.
For you even insinuate imperialism to describe Israel it is one of those tenacious slanders which has made the “socialism of fools” so colorful.Well done, you have excelled in copy and paste, however, I doubt that Bernard Avishai would too impressed with you plagerising his work.
Two academics are discussing what constitutes imperialism, here, and in Avishai's own words:
Territorial annexation or formal political control, although often instruments of imperialism, are hardly its central intention.
Intentionally or otherwise, Avishi acknowledges that annexation and political dominance ARE instruments of imperialism. I am impressed though Wavegirl- honestly- you've looked to scholars for answers instead of the New York Times- now, if only you could work out what it actually all means.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archive … tion=falseSince when does wavwgirl have a mind of her own? To have one requires to be able to think!
at least you finally actually read something and with the grace of god you may have learned a thing or two.
Time and time again you prove how much you dont retain and really should try to get more then a few things straight. It is Ralph Deeds that usually posts from the NY Times.
It is not what Shlomo Sand says. If the race doesn't exist genetically it cannot pretend to its attachment to the Palestinian land.
Zionism is the steal of a land that belongs to the Palestinians, zionism is the justification of israeli violence, abuse and crimes and colonisation towards the Palestinians, zionism is the non-religious movement of securing the jewish people a future and a land, zionism is the pretext to gather an untraceable race (confer Shlomo Sand's book: "the invention of the jewish people"), zionism is the false recognition of the jewish legitimacy on palestinian land...
Hey, pro-pals, do you want more historical facts? My pleasure is to serve them to you.
This is what propaganda tells you: during the 6 day war Israel captured the West bank from the Palestinians, refused the United Nations demand to retreat and illegally built settlements.
This is how it was in reality: First question: From whom Israel captured the West bank? From the Palestinians? NO. In 1967 there was no Arab nation or state by the name of Palestine. Actually, was there ever? Israel took over the West Bank from Jordan in an act of self-defense after Jordan joined the war lounged by Egypt and Syria to destroy Israel. By the way, “destroying countries” is illegal.
The UN back in 1967 rejected repeated Arabs and Soviet attempts to declare Israel as aggressive. Security Counselor resolution 242 did not demand a unilateral Israeli withdrawal. Rather, the United Nation called for negotiating a solution, which would leave Israel with secure and recognized boundaries; in the fact, defensible borders.
But, what was Jordan doing in the West Bank in the first place? What was its legal justification? It had no legal justification. Jordan simply occupied it during its previous attempt to destroy a newly established state of Israel in 1948, changing the commonly accepted name of Judea and Samaria to the West Bank. But that did not convince anybody and almost no one recognized the legality of Jordan occupation, not even any of the other Arabs states.
So, if Jordan had no legal claim to the land, and the Palestine did not exist, whose territory was it? Let’s go back in time. Don’t worry, not to the dates of the Bible, only about 100 years. Until 1917 the Ottoman Empire occupied the whole region. After losing the WWI the Ottomans relinquish their 500 years control to the allied forces, which decided to divide the old Empire into countries. Britain Foreign minister, Lord Balfour recognized the Jewish people historical right to their homeland. A small area equivalent to about half of 1% of the Middle East was designated for this purpose. Britain received the mandate form the League of Nations to promote the establishment of the Jewish Homeland.
But what happened? The Jewish homeland originally included not only the West Bank, but also the East Bank of the Jordan river. They compromised already. The League of Nations recognition of the Jewish homeland which includes the West bank was reaffirmed by the United nations after the WWII.
With the British mandate ending, United Nations general assembly resolution 181 recommended the establishment of two states: one Jewish and one Arab. The Jews accepted it and went out to create the state of Israel, while the Arabs refused the compromise and lounged the war to destroy a newly established Jewish state. At the end of the war a ceasefire line was formed where Israeli and Arab forces stopped fighting.
At the insistence of Arab leaders this line was defined as having no political significance. Although this line is commonly referred to as the 1967 border, it is not from 1967 and it was never an international border.
This is why a more exact and legal definition for the West Bank according to the international law is really the same as in so many other areas, where there are or were territorial disputes, but which are not defined as occupied (for example, Zubarah, Tumbs Island, Western Sahara, Abu Musa Island, Kashmir etc). They are not considered occupied territories, but rather disputed territories.
Israel presence in the West Bank is the result of the war of self-defense. The West Bank should not be considered occupied, because there was no previous legal sovereign in the area. Therefore, the real definition should be “disputed territory”.
The 1948 partition plan (United Nations general assembly resolution 181) has no current legal standing, while Israel’s claim to the land was clearly recognized by the international community during the 20th century. That is why the presence and construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank should not be considered illegal. This is based on conclusions made by the world renowned juries, like Professor Eugene Rostow, Justice Arthur Goldberg, and Stephen Schwebel, who headed the International Court of Justice.
So what’s the solution for the dispute over the West bank? Unfortunately, there’s no magic solution. It only can reached if we base our negotiations on the legal and historical facts.Shlomo Sand would disagree with you, and... He is a scholar.
Who is Shlomo Sand? Some minor professor from Tel-Aviv University, educated in Tel-Aviv University.... One drugged-drunk-looking guy who wrote a controversial book. If you dig into a garbage pile, you can find more "scholars" like him. Only dirt-diggers like you would consider Shlomo Sand an authority.
Obviously, and you know better, don't you? Unfortunately, for you other scholars backed him up. Are they also idiots? The truth hurts, I understand why you don't want to hear it.
Why is he a drugged and drunk looking guy? On what grounds do you base your assessment of "some minor professor" ?
Because Reuvera, herself, is a professor emeritus.
"Why is he a drugged and drunk looking guy?" Because he looks like one. Note, I did not say that he is the one, but I just said "he looks like" one. This is my subjective vision of his photo, no more than this.
My assessment of him being "some minor professor" is objective. Read his curriculum vitae. He teaches one course of modern history in Tel-Aviv University. Do you have an idea now many professors teach in this University?
Having read Truly Different's post about him and after conducting my own research about him on line (not in Wikipedia) I clearly see that he is a mere opportunist, a vivid Communist and not a scholar.
More over, after reading some extracts from his book "The invention of Jewish people" (I didn't buy this garbage, as I'd better buy a good pizza for this prize- more pleasure and less harm- I was reading what was available for a free preview) and after reading I got a complete picture. Take any extract from this book, quote it, and I will serve you with historical facts to prove him wrong!
Here we have PA distortion at its finest.
The Palestinian leadership’s falsification of history by presenting Jesus as an ancient Palestinian increased in regularity as Christmas approached this year. In the last month alone, the PA media has transmitted six additional PA misrepresentations of Jesus as a Palestinian, including:
The Palestinian “holy Trinity”:
Jesus, Arafat and Abbas
In addition, there is an attempt to connect Jesus to the Palestinian leaders themselves. Senior PA leader Jibril Rajoub said: “The greatest Palestinian in history since Jesus is Yasser Arafat,” and an editorial in the PA official daily referred to Arafat, Jesus and Abbas as the Palestinian “holy Trinity”:
“Jesus is a Palestinian; the self-sacrificing Yasser Arafat is a Palestinian; Mahmoud Abbas, the messenger of peace on earth, is a Palestinian. How great is this nation of the holy Trinity!”
The Governor of Ramallah: “We all have the right to be proud that Jesus is a Palestinian”
PA historian: “In the final analysis, Jesus the Messiah is a Palestinian”
The PA Mufti: “Jesus is a Palestinian par excellence”
Sheikh Muhammad Hussein, Mufti of Jerusalem and the Palestinian Territories:
“The Palestinian nation is rooted in this land since the Canaanites and the Jebusites. The Arab presence – Christian and Islamic – on this land is uninterrupted. Jesus is a Palestinian par excellence.”
[PA TV (Fatah), Nov. 30, 2012]
Governor of the Ramallah district Leila Ghannam:
“The Palestinian pain is one and the joy is one. We all have the right to be proud that Jesus is a Palestinian and that Palestine is the birthplace of the religions…”
[Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 24, 2012]
Palestinian historian Khalil Shoka:
"The Christian religion started here [Bethlehem]...The entire world is focused on this city because of its important historical and traditional role... because in the final analysis, Jesus is a Palestinian."
[PA TV (Fatah), Dec. 16, 2012]
PA daily: "We can be proud" that Jesus was "the first Palestinian who redeemed mankind"
Source: Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Dec. 25, 2012Well, I am visiting again this thread and since I am an Israeli, living in Israel, I have a right to offer you my thoughts. First of all, my great and deepest gratefulness to Paul Chesler, Wavegirl, Reuvera, Barefootfae and some others who are continuously posting the truth.
Now, I saw the name of Shlomo Sand (his name is actually pronounced Zand in Hebrew)…. Let me give some light into this controversy. I am not a stranger in Tel-Aviv University.
Shlomo Zand is a Communist, raised a Communist, he is soaked in Communistic ideology, he is a Communazi to summon it up….
He was born in Austria in 1946, to Polish Jewish survivors of the Holocaust. His parents were Communists. He moved with the family to Israel in 1948. He was expelled from high school at the age of sixteen, and only completed his high school diploma after his military service.
I mentioned that Shlomo Zand is a communist and this is a decisive fact. Communists have opposed Zionism since the days of Lenin and Stalin, because Zionism is a liberation movement of the Jewish people. In order to eliminate Zionism they got an idea to achieve it through eliminating Jewish people. Hitler was planning to eliminate Jewish people physically (by the way, Shlomo Zand’s parents miraculously survived the genocide) and a son of Holocaust survivors decided to finish ideologically what Hitler didn’t achieve physically.
The belief in existence of Jewish people has existed for three thousand years at least, if you study traditional prayers from the Bible or other ancient literature.
Shlomo Zand manipulates with insinuations that there is no ties of ancient Jews to modern Jews. As a matter of fact, here is NO pure race, any race is mingled and intermingled with other races. However, there are dozens of genetic researches by scientist from non-Jewish sources, which prove that there IS a continuity in Jewish DNA.
Anti-Zionists and anti-Semites and other Judeophobes do not need much to hate Jews. Since the time of Karl Marx and Joseph Stalin the most Jew-haters were Jews who were Communists. Both Marx and Stalin were Jewish, but were raised with Communist ideology.
Shomo Zand is no novelty. Same old, same old anti-Semite using insinuations and lies that cannot be supported scientifically or historically. Zand’s arguments are fake history and fake science. Old wine in a new bottle.Someone here tried to say that Shlomo Zand is a scholar and that other scholars support him. A scholarly work is implying a scholarly approach - which is supposed to be unbiased. You can'd find a more biased person than Shlomo Zand!!! He is a rabid communist and anti-Zionist. His book is a lame attempt to be "history" but in fact, it is a pathetic attempt to use history for contemporary political goals.
Sand's book is not history and he is not a "historian." He is a propagandist, a political activist. Of course, he has the right to do this but not to pretend that he is doing the work of a historian.
Free Speech is important. But antisemitism is not free speech.
Zand is a Professor of History at Tel Aviv University. Almost everything
he publishes is in French, which by Israeli academic standards makes him a
third-rate pseudo-academic
Do you want to read real scholars review of Zand's biased book?
http://zioncon.blogspot.com/2008/08/tel … d-and.html
Enough of Shlomo Zand.it is so refreshing when someone adds something of intelligence to this conversation.
Coming from an "Israeli"? Coming from a zionist? What is the probability for his opinion to be unbiased? Mininal, we must agree upon this fact. In what way is it intelligent? Maybe for you, but once again, you are easily impressed aren't you, the queen of "copy and paste"? Hollie caught you, too.
Coming from someone that thinks the only Arab state is Saudi Arabia is something to truly be proud of.
I am sure everyone that has been reading this thread knows that all and everything you post is coming from someone that prides themselves on hate, proproganda and a whole lot of nonsense.On your contrary, I dispose of knowledge. Which 56 countries are muslim? Only zionists and religious extremists like Paul agree with you, it says it all!
Since when did Unesco become zionists or religious extremists?
And it was not Paul who highlighted this error of yours. Not only cant you get facts straight, its obvious you cant get people straight either.What would this mean?..... "I dispose of knowledge"...... still wondering....
Let he among us without sin be the first to condemn
Maxoxam, what's really funny about this is that somebody who is obviously islamic and seems a bit radical (that's you, max) is the one complaining about religious extremism. I am merely stating that the position that the government of my country (the US) holds of, whether or not you agree with it, max. You, on the other hand, appear to be the religious extremist (especially if you live in the US... and are therefore as unpatriotic as you appear in your opinions on the middle east). I don't care if you like it or not, when hamas befriended iran (our mortal enemy), they also became our mortal enemy. You will get nothing but a pro-Israel stance out of the US government- just because of national security interests.
Hamas is your mortal enemy not mine. The media did not corrupt me yet. As I challenged you once, I am willing to swallow a nice, fat slice of ham to discredit your fallacious and pernicious words. I am open to any religion as long as they stay out of my center of gravity. But when a religious like you is condemning one for no rational reason, I have to step in that nonsense.
Dear max, please, explain why the information that I shared as an Israeli is "biased" and "wrong" from your point of view, while an information from another Israeli (an infamous Shlomo Zand) is highly scientific for you?
Is this because his agenda is close to your agenda?
FYI, people like I am are in majority and people like mister Zand are not numerous...
Klarsfeld's father also miraculously escaped the gestapo and his son is a famous zionist born in France, so please stop your rhetoric. In what way communism disserves the interests of the people? How many were or are born far from former Palestine? Too many, therefore he is not an exception. The lie is the truth that you can't accept because it discredites the narrative of the zionists and, your dreams collapse suddenly.
And what dreams are those?
The dream of a land that is the biggest and oldest democracy in the region. Or the dream that Israel within 50 years was able to successfully build a strong integrated state covering all aspects of life. A dream that has come true where Israel has the best universities in the Middle East. A dream where Israel is known for its great hospitals and cutting edge medical treatments. Israel continues to uses its technology and know-how to benefit the world.
Facts are facts and since its independence, Israel has turned a desert into an oasis.
Yes the dream is alive and well and Israel is here to stay.A democracy? Where? An apartheid, yes. And how did they build the country? Thanks to American (governement and zionists) funding not because they are geniuses. Stop flattering your ego.
The Jewish Connection to Jerusalem, Our Eternal Capital
(mind, I am going to do "copy and paste" thing, because I re-post what I support and because I could not say it better. This is the point of "copy/past" and not a plagiarism, as you smart cookies think.
So...
Long before other religions appeared on the scene, the Jewish tradition teaches that Abraham attempted to sacrifice his child Isaac on the very spot of the present-day Temple Mount in Jerusalem. This was also the location where Judaism teaches that Isaac went to pray before meeting Rebecca and where Jacob had his famous dream. From this moment onward, Jerusalem would be of pivotal importance to the Jewish people. As Psalms 137:5-6 proclaims, “If I forget thee O Jerusalem, may my right hand forget its skill. May my tongue cling to my palate, if I do not remember you, if I do not bring up Jerusalem at the beginning of my joy.” Indeed, Jerusalem is mentioned 349 times by name in the Tanakh, the Jewish Bible, thus demonstrating Jewish attachment to the city.
While Jerusalem would not become a Jewish city until King David’s reign, the Book of Joshua describes how Adoni-Tzedek, the Canaanite King of Jerusalem, waged war against the Jews. Interestingly, the Amarna Letters that were discovered in Egypt and are dated to be around the time of Joshua, include a letter to the Egyptian Pharoah by Abdi-Heba, mayor of Jerusalem, who claimed, “May the king give thought to his land; the land of the king is lost. All of it has attacked me.” At another instance, Abdi Heba is recorded as writing to the Egyptian Pharoah, “The Habiru sack the territories of the king. If there are archers (here) this year, all the territories of the king will remain (intact); but if there are no archers, the territories of the king, my Lord, will be lost!” Historian Robert Wolfe believes that the Habiru mentioned in the Amarna Letters were actually Hebrews.
According to American archaeologist Eric Cline, “archaeologists excavating at Tel Dan in northern Israel discovered an inscription that commemorates a military campaign in Israel by Hazael of Aram about the year 841 BCE and that mentions the House of David.” Thus, as a result of this excavation at Tel Dan, Tel Aviv University ancient historian Nadav Na’aman has stated that, in his opinion, the facts “strongly support the biblical claims a) that David conquered Jerusalem and made it his capital and b) that he founded the royal dynasty of Jerusalem.”
From the reign of King David up until 70 CE, with the sole exception of a brief seventy-year exile in Babylonia, Jerusalem would be a predominately Jewish city. However, even after the Romans would expel the Jews from Jerusalem, there were always Jews who still remained in Israel and the Jewish religion was transformed in order to maintain a Jewish life and keep Jewish traditions until the re-restoration of the Temple again. In the past, Jewish life revolved around the Temple in Jerusalem and thus the Jewish people needed substitute traditions to follow until the advent of the messianic age.
For example, the prayers in the synagogue symbolize the sacrifices of korban ha-tamid that used to be performed in the Temple. In every single synagogue throughout the world, Jews pray in the direction of Jerusalem. In Jewish weddings, the groom who broke the glass symbolically remembers the destruction of the Temple. At the Passover Seder, Jews passionately proclaim “Next Year in Jerusalem.” Holidays were introduced into the religion with the sole purpose of remembering the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. Nevertheless, it is important to note that a great fraction of the 613 laws that Jews are commanded to do cannot be performed without the existence of a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem on the Temple Mount, which is the holiest site in Judaism. No other religion on the face of the planet holds Jerusalem in the same esteem that Jews do.
Furthermore, whenever Jews were given the ability to do so, they always returned to Jerusalem. When the Persians sought to overthrow Byzantine rule in Jerusalem, the Jews supported them and according to archaeological evidence, actually succeeded to control Jerusalem for five years under Persian domination around AD 614. According to one chronicle in the Genizah, Umar gave the Jews permission to settle in Jerusalem and seventy Jewish families moved to the Holy City after the Byzantines were overthrown. Indeed, with the sole exception of Byzantine and Crusader times, there was always a Jewish community in Jerusalem. No other nation on earth has had such an ancient and continuous presence within the Holy City!
In 1854, Karl Marx wrote in the Daily Tribune that Jerusalem had a population of 15,500 souls, of whom 4,000 were Muslim and 8,000 were Jews. Indeed, Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 1840’s, well-before the rise of the Zionist movement. Sephardic Jews had settled in Jerusalem following the Spanish Inquisition and they were later on joined by European Hassadim. Both the Sephardim and the Hassidim were drawn to Jerusalem because of the city’s crucial importance to the Jewish faith. When Israel was declared to be a state, Jerusalem became the capital city of Israel, for Jerusalem has always been the center of the Jewish world for at least four thousand years. Given this history, Jews should have a right to build in any part of their ancestral capital city, especially given the fact that the ancient city of Jerusalem that King David presided over was located in Kfar Ha-Shiloach (Silwan), in today’s East Jerusalem.
@Wavegirl- yes, I agree. I learnt that instead of trying to understand what imperialism means, how the mechanics of imperialism actually operate- you decided to find evidence (although in reality it is only subjective opinion, and from the 1970's I might add!) to support your claim that Israel is neither an imperialist state, nor has an expansionists agenda, then, pass the argument regarding definition off as your own. Plagiarism, tut, tut! Unfortunately for you however, you copied and pasted an extract which largely supported my claim. And again, because you appear unable to comprehend that which you are reading, didn't even realise that you had.
Since my opinion bothers at least one of you why not leaving the thread instead of banning me? That's how mature people are on threads that I OPENED! Either you accept a counter-argument, either you move on but to impose your intolerance, that's a bit much don't you think? Wasn't I tolerant enough to let you speak freely? The least I can expect from you is the same treatment.
Look who is back! Maxi personally! If you noticed, no one was posting here for many days until you came to revive the threat, which is past due to die. I will unfollow the thread so that it would not pop in my feed.
Who are you to "let us" or not to "let us" speak freely? You are not the master of a forum thread, you are just an OP. On your hubs you have a right to choose which comment to approve or which one to delete, but not on forums.
As for you being banned.... I think you might have been banned not for expressing your opinions (no matter how groundless they are), but for you constantly using personal attacks and insults.
Farewell, maxi. Peace.
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