What makes you respect a person whose beliefs you find nonsensical?
- Motown2Chitownposted 10 years ago
0Simple honesty.
Our honest admission that we may be nuts, but we don't care?
In a roundabout way, I am talking about you. And ATM, Mark Knowles, getitrite, JMcFarland, and some of our more vocal resident atheists - at least that's the way other community members might describe you guys. I find it interesting that each and every one of you has expressed over time that though you disagree with me on issues of faith, you still respect me. I'm very grateful for that - but then you guys get pretty heated with certain other folks around here who express their faith or talk about their beliefs. Now, do not misunderstand, I often find that believers and unbelievers alike on this forum can get pretty heated - to the point of anger or disrespect, even. Where is the line that I've crossed (or other believers you respect) that puts me on the side of respect and acceptance v. frustration and disregard?
In all honesty, I want to know how to bridge the gap.
See, I have such a different take on hell, and there are believers who fear for my mortal soul even more than for yours...lol And, you know that I am a member of a Church led by the Antichrist according to others, so in essence, I must actually worship Satan...yada, yada, yada.
But every one of you is not only willing to hear what I have to say, but you actually ask me questions. Once, you even told me that you could never find anything in my posts to argue with...lol I have that day marked on the calendar, you know, because when it comes time, I want to be able to show it to the Lord on your behalf......
I thought so too.
But I guess I can see what you're saying. But, here's a question for you...when someone takes a polygraph examination, the examiner points out that if a person believes something to be true, even if it is not, it does not register as deceptive on the exam. So, in honesty, are these people actually lying or are they simply one hundred percent convinced of the truth of what they're saying and trying in some way to convince you also? Do you really believe that it's a malicious falsehood?Ah....the dreaded "I" word.
But I understand your point. It is hard to let go of something you've been taught as absolute truth from childhood - especially when you've never been exposed to anything else. One of the things I'm most grateful for about my formative years is that my parents, by their very nature, befriended so many different people and as a result I was exposed to many things that I might not have been otherwise. Neither of them (well, none of the three - I had one step parent) had a judgmental bone in their bodies and they were both insatiably curious about people and lifestyles different from their own. I grew up that way, and thank God, it stuck! 
I naturally rebel against any sort of indoctrination or brainwashing or attempts to prejudice my thinking against anyone or anything. I absolutely have to make my own choices and my own decisions.
And, TBH, what boggles my mind about some believers is that they think everything different is automatically evil. If God created us all - why, for even one moment, do we think our faith has to be this homogeneous, static thing. Why not a diverse, dynamic, vital, and growing organism?
Mind if I hazard a guess? God is a very serious subject for those of us who believe in him. God is very important to our lives. The issue that some believers face is that they are so wrapped up in their beliefs that they become overly emotional about it and as such lose sight of logic and reason in favor of emotion when discussing those beliefs. as a result, they become easily offended by anyone that disagrees with their views on the bible and they view those of us (like myself, you, and melissa, to name a few) heretical traitors because we are able to separate our emotions from our beliefs and we also disagree with some of their views. Apparently, Christians are supposed to stick together
On the other side, atheists lack a belief in God and as such, God is not a s serious of a subject to atheists (other than as a source of humor). As a result, Atheists appear to come across (to some) as more callous, disrespectful, and rude.
I think the reason that you, Melissa, and I come out more on the respect side is that we are able to discuss the bible rationally rather than emotionally and also stick to the subject instead of reacting to them laughing at us because we understand and accept that they do not view God as seriously. We also try to make sure we understand them even while trying to help them understand our beliefs. We also hold to the fact that our beliefs are only OURS and don't try to force our beliefs on them. But I could be wrong.. I can't speak for the atheists...LOL
I have to go back and find where I marked it, but JM actually gave you, me and Melissa a great compliment as well.. JM said a couple of weeks back that If she were to ever find her way back to a point of belief, it would be because of the considerations of the three of us as well as our efforts at showing a not often seen side of Christianity. It made my insides jump...LOL
I agree with that. I think part of what others may take issue with, though, is our imparting a standard on them that they have not chosen for themselves and then condemning them when they don't meet that standard. Because I am a believer, I feel that God has set a specific standard for me - but his standard for others is as unique as they are.
Yes! God deals with us individually as we are
We are his children. A good parent deals with his own child as he is; not sister or brother. The "house rules" are for all to follow. But your sister or brother is not the doler of punishment. Dad is, when he gets home Johnny may not be able to follow rule 3 as well as Amanda, and dad knows the ability of each. He takes it into account.
I am here to remind my peers what "Dad" said. He told me to.
Some say, "Shut the f**k up and mind your business!!!" Some say, "Dad didn't say that!" Still others say, "We don't got no dad!!!" But a few say, "Oh yeah! I will keep that in mind; I will try."
Since "Dad" has a camera to the heart, he knows who is who. We do not always know. So I will do my part and tell it like he said to.
It seems as if the "bickering" occurs because I remain sure and do not question. At least that is what I've gathered from the previous posts. But again, my questions have been answered. I need not further question. I'm sorry to all who may be offended, but I am sure of my faith in God the creator of all things. I don't mind if you are unsure about everything beside supposed facts. If you like what I say, say it with me. If you don't, say how you feel, I am closed to all else (that that goes contrary) but always open to people. So I may not agree with you, but I can "play" with you.
Scrabble is fun...
That's hilarious, Brenda. What cartoon tv show are you talking about?
But, you have no understanding of evolution whatsoever, hence the evidence would mean nothing to you.
In other words, never trust anyone who has an education.
Where?
No, you are not being honest because you don't understand what it is you're attempting to refute, highly dishonest.
- Yes, you don't understand, that is true.
I disagree...God is individually responsible for all of humanity's existence. Do not forget that God originally chose the Jews to be His special people. Jesus Himself was a Jew. And it was Jesus who then reached out to the Gentiles to share God's message of salvation. If we were not all God's children, there is no reason He would be concerned with the salvation or discipleship of "all nations."
I can easily see this point, and I believe that you're right. I know several folks here who have said that in their personal life, people aren't necessarily aware of the religious/non-religious convictions.
But there is absolutely no way that a person can find fault with a person living a Christian life. Francis of Assisi said "Preach the Gospel always; if necessary, use words." Let me be mocked for my silent Christian witness. Someone may mock me all they like....but for what? Being humble? Being kind? Showing compassion? Feeding the hungry? Clothing the naked? Sheltering the homeless? No one mocks those actions. They sure get curious about how anyone can do those things consistently without reward - and then they ask - and BOOM! An opportunity to share your faith and the truth of the Gospel. Make sense?
Oh, me too! That, for me, is extremely important. And thank you - I appreciate that.
I promise that I do not generally take criticism of the Catholic Church personally. I understand it to a great extent...and sometimes, even agree. Birth control - you and I are on the same page. Let me explain why the teaching is what it is - the Church is against artificial contraception because it is understood that it is humanity's way of impeding the procreative action of God - closing the act of sex to the gift of life. I understand their teaching, but it's one I do not agree with, practice, or advocate. Ultimately - I'm with you on that one.
Mary - always the biggest bone of contention between Evangelicals, Protestants, and Catholics. I will say only this - we ask the intercession of Mary like we ask the intercession of a friend who prays. And the words of the most famous prayer to Mary - the Hail Mary - are taken directly from the Gospel - Luke. Ultimately, the Catholic tradition of praying to Mary and the saints is just that - a tradition. Not necessary for either salvation or for being Catholic. Which is why I so rarely get ruffled up about it when people get concerned.
That I get...completely. I think where we differ in our thought process is in how the issue should be approached.
Absolutely
Yes, yes, and yes.
That lady, while beautiful and holy, was anything but perfect, so of course, it was Christ who drew me to Him through her actions. She had left the Catholic Church probably sixteen years before I met her. I had a lot of curiosity about the Church. She found the Church lacking when she was saved. It didn't meet her needs in terms of being fed and didn't provide the type of teaching she was looking for. I joined the Catholic Church three years after I was saved. As a matter of fact, when I asked her about it, she gave me a book written by a former Catholic that ripped apart everything it could about the Catholic Church. But the Lord still drew me there. It met all of my needs, and I responded to the methods of teaching and felt most complete in Christ in that particular style of worship. I was also hungry for tradition and history and a sacramental faith - I found that in the Catholic Church. She didn't feel a need for those things. Sounds odd, I know. Boils down to that we were two different types of people with different needs for a church home. And, I'm in no way offended that you ask. It's a story I love to share.
Not at all...I'm thrilled to be discussing it with you in a calm, rational manner without a lot of crabby nasties thrown in from either of us. I'd rather you ask the questions than make assumptions based on what you've been told or gleaned on your own. Those things may or may not be true, and the only way you'll get the truth of my story is to ask....well, me.
Yes, then your "friend" will threaten you with their religion, telling you that you're going to roast in their eternal lake of fire because you rejected their god, then you can both be enemies forever, respectfully.
You answered my question perfectly!
That's exactly what I was asking. There are people - believers and those who are not - who somehow find the line and cross it and are able to respectfully and sometimes, even as friends, discuss the topic and learn from each other. My OP was about what it was for each that made them able to do that.
Your answer was awesome! Thanks for jumping in.
That's more me. lol
But I'm really trying to change!Yes, you've always been a flirt.
Rad man is right. It harms no one and is endearing. I just don't do it and don't feel the need to apologize for it, or be seen as thinking I am superior because I don't.
Same here, my friend.
And thank you.
Of course you would reject my proof even though your own words are the evidence
Tell the wife I said hello and not to worry, I won't let you leave her for me
Your degree in the subject also makes a big difference. I know that a lot of atheists are former believers and have read the bible and studied, but the fact that you went to college to learn apologetics, the original languages...etc is very impressive to me because it makes reading your debates with others that much more interesting (and funny considering that you are an atheist with a theological degree)
Gaining as much understanding about someone is majorly important because it reduces the amount of confusion. Another thing that cuts down on conflict is to make sure you are clear about the message being sent before responding and also pulling as much emotion out of the subject as you can.
Don't feel bad, I've lumped atheists together as well myself then separated them once I've learned more about them. Emotively, I lumped all of you together because i felt that I wasn't even being given a chance to express my belief well enough and to clarify my stance that I was seeking honest and open discussion, not passing judgment on anyone. I've learned a lot about atheism and actually heard quite a few things from atheists that confirmed things in my mind regarding my own beliefs. Now of course I don't speak about them much here because, as you can see, I catch it from everyone because I admit a lot of things about the bible and as such open myself up to other possibilities rather than stick to the interpretations that I was exposed to as a child. Not saying that I am specifically making up my own interpretations, but when looking at the bible with a dictionary nearby, I've learned that definition changes scripture (especially when looking at context)
Rad makes the point that I'd like to reiterate, because I think it's a key difference: Your faith doesn't affect me.
It's really quite simple. You (anyone, the royal YOU,) can believe in whatever you like, the great and mighty Zuul, for all I care. It doesn't affect me.
However, once legislature starts being passed that we can no longer roast marshmallow's on a Saturday night, (Zuul's holy day,) I start getting peeved
--- NTo be fair, I think we have all been guilty in the past of approaching others with something less than an open mind. We change over time as we come to know each other - and become more humble in our own opinions. It's the willingness on both sides to forgive...in the hope that it will allow a deeper understanding of the other person.
Wow, this is becoming a really productive conversation! Thanks to all of you for becoming a part of it.
Okay, I can't help but butt in here.
Respect is actually relatively easy. I can respect somebody's views, up until the point where they start attacking me personally.
Where I think there is a problem is tolerance, not respect. Many people...on all sides...find it hard to acknowledge that the world is big enough for all viewpoints.
Furthermore, I've found that a lot of religious people aren't willing to let others make their own mistakes. We are not sheep. We are not children - at least I assume nobody here is under 18). We are responsible adults and have the right to make our own decisions *even if they are wrong*. Preaching at people for their own good IS treating them like children. As Motown pointed out, you'll do a better job of evangelizing if you actually live what Christ taught - which the most vocal evangelists often don't. (I'm not saying that's true of anyone here, but there are an awful lot of very loud hypocrites out there).
On the other side of the equation, I have encountered far, far too many atheists who are burying their heads in rationality. I have been told I am delusional for being a theist, told I should be committed. I've had people say I belong in a concentration camp...or dead. I've actually had far worse things said to me by fanatical/fundamentalist atheists than by fundamentalist Christians - many of whom are at least managing "Hate the sin, love the sinner."
The problem? It's not what you believe. It's how you express it and how you treat others.
On evolution. Brenda, your problem is a problem of scale. A human generation is about 20 years. The very system of life leans towards a status quo with relatively minor changes each generation. Evolutionary change can, however, be observed in species with much faster "changeover." Bacteria are a classic example, but some interesting changes have been observed within a human lifetime in certain species of small reptile. The question I have for *you* is why does the theory of evolution contradict the hand of God?
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