Christians-- Do You Realize Jesus Was not Present at the Creation?
Gen 1:1-4 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
ONLY GOD and HIS HOLY SPIRIT WERE PRESENT in the beginning. JESUS DOES NOT appear until after his birth from Mary His mother at the beginning of the new testament..
Scripture is clear when properly understood. 3 entities not 3n1. God, His Son Jesus, God's Holy Spirit. If He was God It would have been from the beginning and mentioned in Genesis. Jesus is the Son of God.
Jesus was born of the woman Mary His mother after being created in her by the Holy Spirit of God as all men are born of a woman. He was born a man at the time determined by God to begin the final age of man and God's plan for the redemption of man as prophesied throughout the scriptures. God gave Him all of the power and authority of God for the final age of man which started at His birth and ends at the judgement. At the judgement He surrenders all of the power and authority back to God from whence it was loaned to Him for this age, and sits down at the right hand of God in submission to Him, who then and forever is again all in all.
Matt 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth
1 Cor 15:24-28 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.Actually, Jesus is a modern English rendition of Yeshua. Secondly, Paul, the Apostle, writes to the church in Colossea. He writes:
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven and Earth ..." (Colossians 1:15-20).
Him refers to Christ. Paul was taught by the Pharisee Gamalial. Jewish teaching reflects creation being accomplished by YHWH, or Yahweh.
In textual criticism, the first account of creation is from the Eloist (E). This comprises Genesis 1:1-2:3. The secondary creation account is from the Yahweh (J) perspective and comprises Genesis 2:4-3:24. Jewish scholars believe the second account was written much earlier than the first.
This is important to understand because, YHWH in Christian truth is the pre-incarnate Christ. John references this truth in his gospel where he says that the word was with God in the beginning, and the word is logos in Greek. Christ is contextually referred to as not only the word, he is referred to as being part of Creation (see John 1:1-3)
Christ is also recorded as saying he is before Abraham and revealed he is "I am" (see John 8:48-59).
Therefore, your premise is faulty and misses the truth regarding Christ being present at the time of creation.Celafoe, please publish a chapter at a time so we can discuss. Perhaps, start with why you selected the topic.
Isn't your spirit a part of you, to the point that it is you? And yet you still have a body as well - it would seem that God and His spirit are 1. It also seems that you are making assumptions when you say Jesus wasn't there, simply because it isn't mentioned. As the creation of light and earth are reversed from what actually happened the failure to speak of every entity that was observing seems rather petty and not worthy of making deductions based on that failure. (Was Gabriel or any other angels there? Satan? Any other ET that was not mentioned elsewhere?)
This discussion about Jesus being present at the beginning, is an interesting discussion; but what you want to prove with it, I don't know. In one way or another it suggests that there is something wrong with our religious beliefs, either our Christian beliefs are wrong, or the way the Bible is written is not clear. I believe many people are going to follow this discussion, and I am one of them, just because I am interested in knowing religious issues, and what most people think about this issue.
because so many people can not understand the truths of scripture, but follow the teaching of men that cannot understand I have been praying for years that The Holy Spirit will show me how to explain scripturally so all can understand. Last night as I was asking this I was given what I need and am now in the process of writing an article explaining the ONE reason for all the division in the "church" and will post it shortly.
Frank Menchise Sir, your observation is on spot valid. It is only but a " "discussion" since the spiritual eternal matter of the Creator is here made an issue of man's- each of us " understanding " which is impossible. The God is Spirit - the eternal spirit which is communicating with His creation often in a bodily form (Exodus 6:2.3.) . As and Omnipresent Spirit he can appear and disappear at certain place in " human form" while never ceasing to be everywhere simultaneously. (This is too difficult understandable to my small Slovak brain). However I KNOW it is true, see Isaiah 44:6; Rev.1:17; 2:8; 22:13) . Have a peaceful meditation.
How about if He was? Does our human brain ( no matter how "bornagain")has capacity to understand glorious handling of Creators eternal values? Why then Jesus would say "Father, glorify me along with Yourself and restore me to such majesty and honor in Your presence as I had with you BEFORE THE WORLD EXISTED" ? ( end of sermon)
dianetrotter, you are probably like myself, I rather believe my Jesus.
Colorful--Yes It is my favorite translation too, I use several translations but lean heavily on the word for word without added words Interlinear
I have been studying word for word in Greek and Hebrew for over thirty years. And, I am intimate with the Holy Ghost as Teacher, etc.
Logos
ADDED: I do use several English translations that trusted Bible translators rate excellent to very good but with some errors. The Amplified has a few errors, but is very good otherwise. I love how it is Amplified and very accurate.
Michael - You reminded me...Phillippians 2:5-8
5 Your attitude should be the kind that was shown us by Jesus Christ, 6 who, though he was God, did not demand and cling to his rights as God, 7 but laid aside his mighty power and glory, taking the disguise of a slave and becoming like men.[a] 8 And he humbled himself even further, going so far as actually to die a criminal’s death on a cross.[b]
Careful attention to the details of Phil 2:5-8 helps to state as well as the human mind can comprehend just what the kenosis involved and hence how His humanity and deity related to each other. He emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, and humbled Himself, becoming obedient to death. He stooped to servanthood and death with all the sovereign free will of One whose choices are limited only by His own holy and loving will.
Celafoe, please explain passages we all cited in your exegesis please. v. 6 above (THOUGH HE WAS GOD)
I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm willing to read what you write.Michael-- I look forward to your comments after I post the explantion
Jesus created all things. (Ephesians ch3 v9, Colossians ch1 v16, Revelation ch4 v11). He would have had to have been there, to create them. Jesus IS God.
Silence!
Celafoe, have we won you over to the side that
1 The Son is God.
2. The Son always existed in eternity past
3. The Son was indeed active in the creation along with the Father and Holy Spirit
4. The Son was given the name, Jesus, for His virgin birth and earthly ministry
The silence is deafening.The God Has won, is winning is The Winner. How else would man's brain and vocabulary fathom and describe THE ETERNAL SPIRIT ?!
Gloryyyyy.Amen ..... but let's wait to hear from Celafoe.
no you have not, I choose to believe scripture not what people think.
THIS IS NOT A GAME AS SOME SEEM TO THINK BY THEIR COMMENTS.
(Not you diane and a few others that are sincere) THIS IS A MATTER OF ETERNAL LIFE OR DESTRUCTION. It cannot be understood with the carnal mind of man
The Scriptural Reason--Why There is So Much Confusion About Christianity HUB HAS BEEN POSTEDCelafoe, I did not read it. I'm sorry. It's very long and quotes scriptures I definitely agree with; however, I don't understand the point.
The topic does not hone in on the specific issue you brought up here. You brought it up for a reason. I would like to understand your reasoning. I did a quick read on your hub and it was more general about understanding Scripture.
To make the point, it is best, as you did here to make a point and support it with Scripture.The issue is that he is appearing to promote himself as being the only authority on scripture and condemns anyone who dares to challenge his conclusions.
Despite the fact he asks people to not even take his word for it. Yet, he violates his own admonishment and insists he is right while all others are wrong.
This is evidenced by his approach.
Celafore, I did a search, copy and paste to be able to discuss a point.
1. You seem to say Jesus is NOT God
2. He has allowed the Spirit of His Father to replace any personal spirit (I don't get it)
3. The only part (spirit) that can enter eternity (I Corinthians 15 speaks of a bodily research - flesh and spirit. When Jesus appeared after resurrection, He had a resurrection body that could be touched (Doubting Thomas)
4. He IS THE HUMAN IMAGE OF GOD (How does that mesh with the Word became flesh?)
5. You don't address any of the points any of us made here.
You deflected from the conversation you started. You never finished this one.
From Celafoe's new article
"Not that He is God or even that He was present there in body, but He has allowed the Spirit of His Father to replace any personal spirit and because the essence (The only part that can enter eternity) is in the Spirit, He now knows everything that ever happened and can say as He does, If you have seen me you have seen the Father, which NO MAN HAS SEEN. He IS THE HUMAN IMAGE OF GOD as we who were created in the image of God are also supposed to be. But in order to be this WE MUST have the HOLY SPIRIT of GOD RESIDING IN US. VERY FEW PEOPLE understand this and are willing to give up their person in exchange for His. But the scriptures even tell us that the indwelling Holy Spirit not only will teach us all things but He will also bring to our remembrance what Jesus said. Because if His Spirit has become your Spirit and then within your Spirit is all knowledge."Diane--
1.yes Jesus is not God
2. as i showed , scripture declares that we must be of one Spirit with God to enter the Kingdom. which Jesus is, we must also do, that is done by allowing the Holy Spirit to overcome your personal spirit , Jesus explained, "my will is to do the will of my Father", which is only known by the Spirit of God
3.When he appeared He was still the same physical human body that died and was resurrected. He was not transfigured until He entered He entered into the Kingdom of Heaven
4. Simply, He existed only as The Word of God describing this man until He entered the world by being born ,as are all men, through the woman Mary, his mother. What is born of the flesh is flesh, what is born of the Spirit is Spirit. as the Son of God He had to be filled with the same Spirit as God, that is why it says He would be filled with the Holy Spirit from His mother's womb. So He had His natural human spirit (from His Mother) and the Holy Spirit (from His Father), two entirely different ones as do all humans when filled with the Holy Spirit. He chose to listen to only the one that would please God as we all must do if we follow Him.
I see my unfortunate choice of words, I will change it from "has allowed the Spirit of His Father to replace any personal spirit"
to "So He had His natural human spirit (from His Mother) and the Holy Spirit (from His Father), two entirely different ones as do all humans when filled with the Holy Spirit. He chose to listen to only the one that would please God as we all must do if we follow Him."
hope this helpsCelafoe, I know no Christian commentary that sources this. The position is considered heretical and cultic.
I don't think others here are disagreeing with each other. It appears that you are the only one in the discussion holding this position.
I wanted to follow the convo through to understand exactly what point you were making.
If Jesus is not God, the Bible should be thrown away.The Son was before all of creation:
Colossians
1:15-23
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ's physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation-
23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. NIVMany millions or perhaps billions have already declared that "Jesus is not God." Or " God is not God." Or Holy Spirit is only God within God, not within Jesus Christ...
How much more confusion is needed to be robbed of trusting The Word?!Everyone starts in unbelief. We were born that way! It is a personal choice that we make to accept Christ. Once we do, the growth process begins. I've been a Christian 37 years and have studied progressively. There are many things I don't know and I am not perfect.
I am able to give a reason for the Hope that lies with in me. I'm not saying it to boast. It is the Christians responsibility to desire the sincere milk of the work to grow. I Peter 2:2.
At some point, we should be beyond milk and on meat. Hebrews 5:12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food!
Virgin birth
Celafoe, the Holy Spirit came upon Mary and she became pregnant. Humans are procreated from fertilized sperm. An angel of the Lord appeared to tell Joseph "Don't worry. She hasn't had sex." I don't think you are reading with continuity. it seems you select passages to support your point.
Matthew 1:18-25
18This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.
20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.”Isaiah 9:6Living Bible (TLB)
6 For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder. These will be his royal titles: “Wonderful,” “Counselor,” “The Mighty God,” “The Everlasting Father,” “The Prince of Peace.”no you do not understand scripture. There was NO SEX INVOLVED WHEN GOD CREATED THE FIRST 2 OF MAN, MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM.
Why would you say I don't understand. God CREATED Adam and Eve. He did not create His Son. His Son always existed as did the Father and Holy Spirit.
I supply the path to the water - whether you drink or not is your decision.
Diane, God is the first and the last, God identified Jesus that was to come and then created Him in the womb of mary to fulfill the words of God. If God did not create Him how did He get in mary's womb and grow there like any other child? THis is not about the things of the invisible kingdom to come this is about flesh and blood human birth death and resurrection in THIS AGE, NOT THE ETERNITY YET TO COME.
As I explained in detail unless you can took through the eyes of the Holy Spirit you cannot correctly understand the things of God. If you accept the works of man called the "church system", with clergy , neither of which are to be found in the new testament age in which we live then you will never be able to see the things of God because He is not to be found there.Translation, I'm right and you are wrong because I have the spirit and you don't. Too bad it's a false and deceiving spirit that is.preaching a false gospel.
Church in New Testament
Acts 11:26
and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.
Paul's letters were written to the churches. They were read to the congregations. Churches are addressed in Revelations prior to the tribulation period. Commentary from Dr. Jeremiah. Scriptures directly from Bible.
1. The church of Ephesus had many positive qualities; Christ commended them in five specific ways—they were dynamic, dedicated, determined, disciplined, and discerning (Revelation 2:2-3). But verse 4 reveals where they went wrong. “Nevertheless, I have this against you, that you have left your first love.” Everything about the Ephesian church looked good on the outs
. SMYRNA — THE SUFFERING CHURCH (REVELATION 2:8-11)
Christians in developed countries today think little about being persecuted for their faith. But there are churches in the world where such persecution is a daily reality. Such was the case for the ancient church in Smyrna. They suffered because of pressure, poverty, and persecution (Revelation 2:9). Christ’s words to that church can prepare all believers for what might come.
3. PERGAMOS — THE COMPROMISING CHURCH (REVELATION 2:12-17)
Pergamos was nicknamed “Satan’s City.” The Christians in Pergamos were surrounded by pagan beliefs and practices. In spite of their faithfulness in some areas, the Christians in Pergamos had compromised their faith in others. They had allowed idolatry to creep into their congregation.
4. THYATIRA — THE ADULTEROUS CHURCH (REVELATION 2:18-29)
There are Christians and churches today who feel a need to be relevant and all-inclusive when it comes to spiritual and moral boundaries. The ancient church in Thyatira must have felt that way as well. This church allowed an immoral individual to lead many others away from Christ (Revelation 2:20). What does Christ say to a church that is tolerating immorality in her midst?
5. SARDIS — THE DEAD CHURCH (REVELATION 3:1-6)
With this church there are no commendations; Christ begins immediately with a denunciation: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead.” The church was full of what we today would call “nominal Christians”—Christians in name only. Christ gives five specific directions for the church that is dead.
Be Sensitive to the Inroads of Sin in the Church (verse 2)
Be Supportive of Those Who Remain True to Christ in the Church (verses 2, 4)
Be Submissive to the Control of the Holy Spirit in the Church (verse 3)
Be Subject to the Authority of God’s Word in the Church (verse 3)
Be Sorry and Repent for the Sin of the Church (verse 3)
6. PHILADELPHIA — THE FAITHFUL CHURCH (REVELATION 3:7-13)
Christ commended the church in Philadelphia for four things: they have an open door, they have a little strength, the have kept the Word of God, and they have not denied the Lord. If we want to be commended by Christ like this church, we will go through open doors of ministry, depend on His strength, and be true to Him and to His Word. What does this mean for us today?
7. LAODICEA — THE LUKEWARM CHURCH (REVELATION 3:14-22)
The church in Laodicea was lacking in every way. It was a compromising, conceited, and Christless church and Christ said that it made Him sick (Revelation 3:16). Today’s Church should take note; those words may apply to us as well. We would be well advised to apply this counsel to our lives and churches today.diane- sorry but not one of the scriptures is talking about what you call a church. This is what I discussed about the translators of that called bible using their beliefs to lead in the direction they believe rather than what scripture actually means, that is how the false clergy got the masses to believe their lie about the church being a building with clergy that you are to attend and serve their hireling.
the scriptures you listed are talking about the word ekklesia incorrectly
translated as church but properly translated as assembly. It is not talking about a building with clergy that the c"churches of men" call a church. the new testament church speaks only of an assembly of believers whenever and where ever they meet, never a building and never with the people being led by a man. .. there is NO CLERGY IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AGE THAT WE LIVE IN. the assemblies belonging to God are to be led by the Holy Spirit.They started out meeting at homes. Bottom line, the church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus is the Bride Groom and head of the church.
What exactly are you suggesting that people do?actually what you call "church" is not the bride of Christ, the disciples that follow Christ are. the "church" with clergy is not of God. there is no clergy the scrptures say Christ is the head of man the "church" says the hireling "pastor" is. the scripture says no man is over another the "church" says obey their hireling "pastor
I choose to follow scripture you choose to follow man, that is your right
I am saying learn to correctly learn scripture, be filled with the
Holy Spirit of God who He sent to teach us all things. study and e Spirit of God teach you all truth.
you may have glanced at the article but you did not really read it as I covered this in it.Empty sepulchers. Judged by the rotten fruit of their beliefs. Jesus preached to love one another and love God...all else would fall into place.
What does any belief matter, in the final analysis, if the ministry or testimony doesn't lead closer to fulfillment of these two commandments?
I say, any attempt to lead is self aggrandizement without a concerted effort to work toward love of God and man.LOL. I was somewhat thinking of you when I wrote that. Well, not just you. Pretty much everyone who is attempting to teach each other what's what.
Hey Live! If you followed closely, everyone was trying to reason with Celafoe. We're glad you dropped by!
Everyone was attempting to reason with him. Yes, well, my point is Christians have decided that, instead of following the example and words of Christ, it is better to argue about things no one could possibly prove to be true or false. I'm not certain that any of that matters. What we do with our knowledge matters. Do we argue? Do we tell each other we need to shake the dust off of our feet? Do we accuse each other of not understanding spiritual things? Do we say 'Again, the Holy Spirit of God, not Man has called me to expose you as a false teacher, a deceiver and call you to repent of your false teaching and deception.'?
I would be interested in hearing how any of that works toward fulfillment of the two most important commandments.Live, Celafoe wanted us to discuss his point with him. We did! All CAPS usually means screaming. Look back through to see who was screaming. It was a discussion that Celafoe wanted to have.
You know I don't argue. I do like to state my case. When people can't agree, what should you do, "drop it." In the Bible, that is "shaking the dust off your feet."
Matthew 10:14 If any household or town refuses to welcome you or listen to your message, shake its dust from your feet as you leave.You aren't an apostle and this wasn't a message. Unless, what? Is it your duty to spread the word of who was at creation? Seriously.
I guess this would be the point where you shake the dust off.
Celafoe, when one chooses to be a teacher, there is a great responsibility that goes with it. Because there are different modes of learning, you must be able to meet the need in every student. Term in education is "chunk-chew-check."
You cannot address the point you made on this, your question. Many Scriptures were given which you do not address. You go to another place (classic politics) and throw the kitchen sink.
If you want people to understand you, "chunk-chew-check."
Don't tell us to go somewhere to look at your complete philosophy. Let's chew on the statement you made here.
Celafoe, It is very important for Christians to study the Bible to be able to determine when something doesn't sound right. When a person says the Holy SPirit is only understood by him/her, that is the beginning of a Jim Jones, Rev. Ike, koolaid cult. Why should people who do not know you trust you over what the Holy Spirit is saying to them.
1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus (Ephesus = church, Book of Ephesians) so that you may command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer
1 Timothy
Beware of false teachers: warn your people
4 1-2 God’s Spirit specifically tells us that in later days there will be men who abandon the true faith and allow themselves to be spiritually seduced by teachings of the devil, teachings given by men who are lying hypocrites, whose consciences are as dead as seared flesh.
There are others. What makes you right and all of us wrong. God will judge those who led others astray.Dianne,
As you are able to see, there is no reasoning with this individual. He's convinced he's right and everyone else is wrong.Tim, what's blowing my mind is, "How does he come up with this stuff? Where does he get his theology?" He won't answer when I ask other than "the Holy Spirit."
Celafoe, I will add you to my prayer list. You seem to think you are communicating truth. Eternal life is in Jesus Christ alone.
diane--I know who I follow and welcome His judgement between me and those hirelings of "churches of men who espouse the doctrines of men, saying they are His doctrines which they are not. I EXPECT the false judgements of people that are walking in their flesh, BUT DO NOT WELCOME OR RECEIVE THEM.
unlike the hireling,I HAVE NEVER or would I ever tell anyone to believe me, I say I present scriptural truth and ALWAYS CLEARLY SAY DO NOT TRUST ME OR ANY OTHER MAN until and unless the Holy Spirit of God confirms it as truth. Yet you and others falsely accuse me, saying that I say those things,it is a lie, I even make that clear on my profile..
This alone validates the fact that you that make this accusation against me are walking in YOUR FLESH and ARE NOT WALKNG IN THE SPIRIT OF GOD.
I never said no one else understands the Holy Spirit, there are a great number that do but you do not find them in the "churches of men". You find them on their knees in the closet talking to God or trying to show truth to the saints that are deceived by the false "church". I said the hirelings, those who work for a salary, that run the big business called "church" by those that are lazy, too self absorbed, to hungry for power over men, or whatever their reason. to to spend the hours necessary in scripture to learn truth the "church". or most likely God has, because of their rebellion,by promoting the doctrines of men instead of His doctrine, just sent them a strong delusion so they CANNOT believe truth and only believe what feels good to them.
no man filled with the Holy Spirit of God can declare he is the pastor of his church, unless it is his church and not of God, which is in fact the truth. God would not allow it. see scripture below. Jesus said to His beloved Peter "get behind me satan" for saying/doing what was not of God. and a man declaring himself to be senior pastor is the ultimate in blasphemy. These men get away with it because they ARE building THEIR "church" and God allows them to so that those who desire to be led by men instead of being directly accountable to God have confirmation of their beliefs. They say they are the only true "church" and bring people into their "church", not into the kingdom of God. Where scripture says the men that are ANOINTED BY GOD have no demands and are happy with the things promised by God to His followers,( food, clothing, shelter) are the only things we are to expect. There is no promise for comfort, cars (or donkeys), homes, airplanes, gourmet foods, buildings, retirement plans( a man that is anointed by God and follows Him alone knows his retirement plan is eternity with his Savior. or anything else. but the hireling cannot provide for his own needs, that would be below him, he the great man of god is ENTITLED to the best, anything his heart desires is due him, he is deceived. In fact He promises us that follow Him the opposite, we will be hated by men (the ones wanting to usurp the place of Jesus) and mistreated at every turn, not honored or gloried by man..
I care not what any man thinks or says about me, I serve God and He will Judge me but woe unto those who have misjudged me in their flesh if it turns out that I am correct, and He says I am.
I believe you, unlike some on here, have an honest desire for truth. It takes time to see truth when you are accustomed to (contrary to scripture) listening to men that preach the doctrines of men instead of scripture
All this about whether Jesus is God or not, IS TOTALLY FRUITLESS AND HAS NO CURRENT VALUE, IT IS A set up by the "churches of men" TO KEEP THE SAINTS FROM PURSUING THE TRUTHS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO THEIR SALVATION. It really does not matter because it really effect in God's plan so I really do not care what you believe on this subject and will no longer waste time on it.
please understand what you believe will not affect me but it will determine your end. Eternity or destruction, choose carefully.
I love the saints and as does God, I desire that all come to a place of salvation in Him, even tho I know not all will I press on.
God will richly bless only those who follow Him exclusively through Jesus Christ.
John 10:12-16
12 But a hireling, he who is not the shepherd, one who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees; and the wolf catches the sheep and scatters them. 13 The hireling flees because he is a hireling and does not care about the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.Charlie,
Thank you for proving that you are above reproof or correction. This is evidenced by your tone and behavior. I do not need to be behind a false teacher. This is based on evidence and the power of the holy spirit as I've had personal revelation from God that you have the spirit of deception and you've been convicted by the true Spirit of God. Yet, you have allowed the spirit of false religion too influence you.
Again, the Holy Spirit of God, not Man has called me to expose you as a false teacher, a deceiver and call you to repent of your false teaching and deception.
Unless you repent of your denial of Christ's deity and false doctrine, you are accursed.
There is a flip side of the coin. Celafoe is right and you are wrong.…and you are wrong likewise. Jesus of Nazareth wasn't there... who was there we are already told by the Creator - God almighty who is the eternal omnipresent - omnipotent SPIRIT ( after much thought I cant fathom it) - He revealed it to my spirit - MAN all I need to know as well he has revealed you your spirit - MAN all you need to know. Thus what ever He has revealed to me I AM totally content with. HalleluYAH.
Neither Charlie in the world would be able to persuade me otherwise.
Shalom.
Celafoe, your writing does not follow a logical process. That is why your other article is a hard read.
What I gather you are trying to teach us is
1. Jesus is not God so don't trust in Him.
2. Don't go to church.
Should we
1. Speak in Hebrew or Greek only.
2. Walk everywhere we go (not ride in cars).
3. Wear sandals and dress like people did back then
4. Not use Internet, cellphones, technology
You took the cultural environment of the church from that time and say it shouldn't grow.
When you teach, you should have resources and lesson plans.
All believers are indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Some quench (ignore) the leading of the Holy Spirit. As one develops a closer relationship with God, He/she is more submissivie to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8:14: “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.”
I hope you don't think I am upset. I am not. It is important to me to understand where you get your philosophy from. After 37 years I am solidly entrenched in what I belief as well as many of the arguments people present to try to contradict them.
The only person here who is showing g a lack in understanding scripture is you Charlie. Yet, you continue to.screech how we all are deceived. The reality is, it appears you are in denial of your own false teachings that have been adequate exposed.
CHARLIE
You summed up your position. "1.yes Jesus is not God".
As Dianne and others, including myself, have pointed out is heretical and false.
Yet, you claim no one take man's word, including yours, on this subject.
Therefore, I have studied this out. And, like others, have pointed out your false and heretical teaching.
Now, you may continue to.preach and teach the false doctrine of denying the preeminence, divinity, and scripture truth that Christ is God and the Son of God at your peril; or, come to realize the erroneous and false teaching for what it is and seek truth. It's your choice. Either remain accursed for teaching false doctrine, or repent and seek out the truth and embrace the truth.
I'm feeling led to leave this discussion. There are times when we have to shake the dust off our feet. Continuing to pray,
Diane
1 Peter 1:
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.
20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.
21 Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God.…all those are true but posting scriptures alone like that serves no useful purpose without understanding scripture correctly and really knowing what they mean and how they are actually true as is my statement
With all due respect, what is the point of the question? Is it to say that Jesus was a man?
Would you explain this please? John 1;1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Given
1. He was not given the name Jesus until: Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
2. God was not created or born. He always existed.
Have you written any books or reference guides on this?dianne- see above comment, I am currently writing it and will be posting it shortly
Have to go with Diane here - while it sounds great to claim "no one knows what scripture means but me, and everyone that disagrees with my opinion is wrong", it would be much better with some proof rather than just a bald statement that only you, out of billions of people, have the answer.
I NEVER SAID OR WILL SAY that no one knows scripture but me. I ALWAYS SAY NO ONE KNOWS SCRIPTURE CORRECTLY BUT THE Holy Spirit of God who was sent to bring/teach us ALL TRUTH.
and I also always say" As I tell you in everything I write-- do not believe what any man (including me) tells you until and unless it is confirmed as truth by the Holy Spirit of God." .
are you willing to do the same?"really knowing what they mean and how they are actually true as is my statement"
Perhaps I misunderstood - I assumed that because others don't really know what scriptures mean but your statement is true that you must know what they mean. Sorry about that.
But I would say, as well, that most people that profess to know what scripture means also indicates that the Holy Spirit of God has given them that information. That the information differs person to person doesn't seem to be considered.
Yes, I am absolutely willing to disbelieve what others say until they are shown to be correct. Whether by the Holy Spirit (and not just the claim that the Spirit told them so) or other means.wilderness--great sousnds like we are actually in agreement. on all points listed
All except the part "how they are actually true as is my statement" - so far any support for the statement is lacking. The only thing you've supplied is the thought that because Genesis did not specifically list Jesus as an observer means he wasn't there; an obvious fallacy.
Wilderness--i commented above that I will be posting a complete explanation shortly and look forward to your comments
Celafoe, I see that you have traveled over the world teaching. You don't have old notes you can post? With your extensive travel and experience why would you have to write something now?
Oh, really? Really?
This might be entertaining.
Celafoe you are correct in what you say. Often we find people who think they have learned all they need to know when it comes to understanding scripture and the message God is trying to reveal. There's 3 people on hub that I follow, who I feel show great understanding of scripture... you, Judah's daughter, and planksnnails. Keep up the good work.
John 1:1 says In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Then in verse 14 John identifies the Word as Jesus and writes And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Seems like a no brainer. Jesus WAS there in the beginning.
john= you bible might sat that or that may be your interpretation of what is said but it is not what the scriptures say bibles are not scripture they are interpretations of scripture by men and include some the opinions of those doing the interpretation.
what it actually is saying cannot be understood unless you understand the full reality of understanding and possessing the fullness of the infilling of the Spirit of God.
Stay tuned , I am currently writing the details of how to understand it so that anyone with an ear to hear the truth can understand it. and will be posting it soon.
jnMay I recommend taking some courses on proper biblical interpretation. This last comment has shown any proper ability to reason and interpret scripture.
Argumentation is flawed, presentation is immature and lacking any coherent sense of meaning and understanding.
And, argumentation is filled with deflection, incongruent statements, as well as having a tone of "I am right and you are wrong" without any real honest investigation into the matter.
Finally, it appears you are not open to correction, and unwilling to consider any evidence presented that may very well go against your present belief.
People, including myself, has shown how you are scripturally in error of your premise. Yet, instead of discussing and seeing whether or not your assumptions are truly scripturally sound, you appear to write off any possibility you may very well be wrong. On what basis, the spirit told me so.
I am unable to take any scriptural or doctrinal position you present as relevant.
How come? I'm well versed in hermanuetics, ancient near Eastern Religious thought, apologetics.
I'm confident to say your premise is faulty and childish. Your reasoning is irrational and illogical. And your understanding of proper scriptural interpretation is lacking.berman--you have NOTHING THAT I OR ANYONE SEEKING TRUTH DESIRES. did you read or just glance before your attack?
its people like you (the previous , dead, age attacks what they do not understand) that follow the works of men instead of scripture and the Holy Spirit.. you are making false accusations about me and you really know nothing about me. I do not fit your pattern of what you expect form man so you try to discredit me. I see you are from seattle ( ONE OF THE MOST liberal-man centered AREAS OF THE COUNTRY), and have read your profile and looked at and read one of you article and I certainly do not know much about you but from what I read you are correct in only one thing you said here . I definately will not receive anything from you.
you said "How come? I'm well versed in hermanuetics, ancient near Eastern Religious thought, apologetics." wow all that and $5 might get you a cup of coffee but it has NO ETERNAL VALUE as it is all man centered. The Kingdom of God is a Spiritual kingdom, it is not about being human and the ways of man, it is training to prepare for and enter life after the end of this age , the final age of man. After the end of this there will be no mankind so understanding the way taught by men that bring division (denomination, non-denomination, buildings and clergy) that do not exist in the new testament so they are all USELESS.
YOU ARE TYPICAL THOUGH ,WHEN YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND you try to discredit. If you really had a clue you would have used your great knowledge and given supporting material but you just attack what you know not of-- the apostle Paul had the same problem with people like you, you do not affect me, i do not and will not answer to the likes of you. you are trying to promote the human race and God is promoting a change from human to Spiritual they can not be joined together, I must die that He may live in me..or as scripture says it.
1 Cor 15:50-51 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.
Gal 5:24-26 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.You stated: "berman--you have NOTHING THAT I OR ANYONE SEEKING TRUTH DESIRES. did you read or just glance before your attack?"
My response: your first sentence is faulty. It's presumptuous and appears to be made from a position of closed-mindedness. Meaning, any person challenging your presuppositions and presenting any error in your argument is already deemed to be in error without proper examination. It essentially prevents any honest dialogue going forward. It is quite characteristic of people who are entrenched in a false belief system, and laden with denial of any possibility of being in error.
The second sentence is irrational and illogical as it makes a false conclusion that by my examination, it automatically warrants a behavior known as deflection and blame. Otherwise, it is a form of detouring by making a faulty assumption and conclusion. Yes, I did indeed read the atrocious question. I did indeed respond from a logical, mindful, and scripturally sound position. I have also read the commentary.
Did I attack you personally? No, that would be an ad hominem. No, I am employing a rational and critical analysis of the presenting tone and behavior. I'm offering a more constructive criticism in presenting how your premise and argument is faulty. The interpretation you appear to have derived at is known as personalization. An irrational form of limited thinking and thought processing that begets negative feelings of resentment, frustration, anger, and other such negative emotions.
You stated: "its people like you (the previous , dead, age attacks what they do not understand) that follow the works of men instead of scripture and the Holy Spirit.. "
My response: Your next set of statements is what is defined as an ad hominem. Filled with false judgments. There is no evidence to support your assertion here.
You stated: "you are making false accusations about me and you really know nothing about me. I do not fit your pattern of what you expect form man so you try to discredit me. "
My response: Again, emotional drivel based on faulty assumptions. I make no pretense about who a person is or is not. Therefore I am mindful of the individual. I have no expectation at all.
However, when you make a public statement or a public assertion, it will be placed under consideration to determine the rationale behind it. This is where objective and critical thinking comes into play.
Therefore, this is not about you personally, it is more about what you are staying and reporting to be truth. And, if what you are presenting and reporting publicly as being truth is reviewed and tested against particular means of critical analysis reveals it is in error, then it is far better to.expose the false premise and teaching for what it is.
And, since we are talking about scripture this is what Paul referred to when he wrote to Timothy in 2 Timothy 3:16. Your premise is false based on the available evidence of appropriate interpretation of scripture.
As for the rest of the knee-jerk emotional drivel, nothing more than ad hominem, general ad hominem, red herring, and other logical fallacies.
No one will have an impact on you because you appear to feel far more superior to any other person who remotely disagrees with or challenges you. This is arrogant, and quite atrocious.
In the end, it appears there is strong ambivalence to any proper honest discussion.trb- go play some place else I have nothing more to say to you. I have more important things to do with my valuable time.
Thank you. It appears, your last comment proves there is no person worthy of discussing this topic with you because you appear to dislike being challenged and unwilling to see how erroneous you're argument is. This is based on the presenting behavior in how you've chosen to communicate.
What verses make you think Jesus was alive and living in the beginning? Jesus was born a man. The word is Yehshua but that doesn't mean He was alive in heaven.
See my initial response up above regarding your question.
I looked couldn't find it. I'll look again
Found it. Why would Jesus use, "before Abraham, I Am" and not Noah or Enoch? They were righteous. If Jesus existed in heaven and was part of the creation he was before them too. Of course the plan of Jesus was in the beginning before the foundations. Gods plan was Jesus. God is also the Word in every sense. You don't believe Jesus is God do you?
dianne and all others with the exception of berman.
I appreciate all of your questions and welcome them. this article has grown (the number of issues I need to cover), so is taking a bit longer that I expected. But I am still planning to post it soon. After I post it I will gladly answer any questions that remain. thank youcool! Going to bed now. I'll check back tomorrow morning.
Goodnight!no problem, it will be a few days as I have some others thing to do. also, I usually wait 24 hrs and recheck my work before I post it
The Scriptural Reason--Why There is So Much Confusion About Christianity hub has been posted
What happened to the subject here? Jesus did not participate in creation. Are you saying there is confusion or he did not participate?
He did not participate.
read the article it explains it. that is what i agreed to do explain the scriptures that show what I stated
if you read it and still have questions I will answer them but unless you understand the basis for the question. questions are supposition.
as the article explains it is all about seeing things in the Spiritual realm of God instead of the carnal realm of the "church system"It seems an exercise in futility. In a few centuries Mary and Joseph will be Co-gods / mother-father god and Paul will be satan. If we have not arrived there already.
Again, you are showing how erroneous you are in an attempt to show how Christ was not part of Creation. Face it Charlie, you appear to have no true scriptural understanding. It is quite evident and apparant.
You've taken this out of context and constructed a straw man argument. Go back read it carefully and examine the passages I've presented instead of isolating and taking out of context what I've stated.
Also respond to my initial comment and not here.
By the way, the position I'm seeing here is a second century valintinian Gnostic tradition deemed heretical.Wow. Someone who was at creation and saw it all first hand. Someone who knows who was there. I'm so impressed.
habla ingles?
God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?I find this quite interesting.
"There are so many people on here that want to teach, but are not equipped-- do not really understand scripture. To all that are in this category i say this-- If you place a teaching that clearly contradicts scripture, cannot be proven by scripture (in correct context) be prepared to have it judged against the scriptures."
This is from his profile. His position cannot be proven by scripture. It's been shown to be in error, contradictory, and therefore, by his own words, lacking understanding because he appears to not be equipped.The question is a good one to think about but not very hard at all .According to this scripture it is very clear. Notice" let us "
"Our" means more then one person present.
If I said let us build robots , would that be me alone ? No another person or persons are involved.
Ge 1:26 Then God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.”
The very reason is connected to this scripture
Col 1:16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.
Also consider what is written in these.
Proverbs 8:30 Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;I rejoiced before him all the time; 31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.
Something to really think about but the answers are there for us.Michael, I've studied this out. Both from Jewish scholarship and Christian scholarship. So, unless you are willing to provide definitive scriptural authority that Christ was not present and active in the creation process, then there is no need to further this discussion.
Neither you or Charlie has actually addressed the plethora of New Testament passages that clearly teach Christ was not only present at the time of creation, He actually was the one who created all things. This is based on the proper interpretation of Hebrews 1, Colossians, John 1, and other such passages.
Merely refuting with the arrogant and pompous mantra of "the holy spirit told me so" and the continual blithering statement of "you don't have the holy spirit and therefore can't understand the spiritual things of God" is typical drivel of false teachers and progniters of erronous and false doctrine.
What you two preach and appear to sustain is antichristian doctrine. Not because I said so, because it's been adequetly established by scripture itself.
If you want to continue to believe, that's at your peril. However, if you continue to preach, then your preaching false doctrine that is antichrist as it denies the divinity and deity of Jesus Christ.
So, come back when you are capable of providing actual proof from scholarly and scriptural support for your assertion. Until then, ye are accursed.Christ was indeed present at the creation. But the bodily man Jesus wasn't present because Christ hadn't been given a fleshly body until the new testament age. When Christ was born he became Jesus Christ.
So, what are you? The pirate apostle?
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