Is Corporal Punishment For Children A Right-wing Tenant?

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   GA Andersonposted 6 years ago

   This topic comes from a tangent to another thread - American Slavery in the 21st Century?What are "non-compete" agreements
   
   With respect for the other topic's OP, this thread was started.
   
   GA

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      Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Is Corporal Punishment For Children A Right-wing Tenant?
      BTW
      No.
      But, sometimes a small quick dose, (in either right or left wing worlds,) is common sense, especially in emergency situations.

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      promisemposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I don't believe it's a right-wing tenant but rather a practice of earlier generations that our modern society is now trying to discourage. Research shows that it encourages violence.
      
      http://www.apa.org/pi/prevent-violence/ … avior.aspx

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         GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         I agree that it is not "Right-wing" owned activity. But that was the comment that started this thread.
         
         GA

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            promisemposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Thank you. I was responding to the title of this thread.

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               ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Perhaps some forum dwellers should have been raised more under the influences  of corporal punishment .Yea . I think so .

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   GA Andersonposted 6 years ago

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      GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

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   GA Andersonposted 6 years ago

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   GA Andersonposted 6 years ago

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      GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      continued...
      
      Hi nathanville, I was aware of the European thoughts on corporal punishment, and I am not reeeally advocating corporal punishment.  But, the idea that you can successfully reason with a 3 or 4-yr. old is an optimistic one.
      
      Obviously I strongly disagree with Will's attribution of belief in corporal punishment as a "Right-wing world" philosophy, but to be clear, I do not advocate corporal punishment in the commonly thought of forms; spankings, whippings, belts, paddles, etc. (and especially I do not agree with slaps to the face).
      
      But what I do agree with would be forms similar to a snappy slap to the wrist of a hand that has been told "Don't touch" umpteen times. And yes, when dealing with 2 - 5-yr. olds, there is such a number as umpteen.
      
      Or a snappy slap to the butt that doesn't bodily lift the child off the floor, (or heaven forbid - knock them down), but does deliver an attention getting sting.
      
      That is pretty much the extent of my criteria for acceptable corporal punishment, (a butt stinging switching might not be out-of-bounds for some instances), but those still qualify as corporal punishment - and we all know you can't be '...just a little bit pregnant."
      
      So... although you must have been an exceptional child if you have clear memories of rational explanations, at 3 or 4-yrs. old - to the point of only needing a single explanation, to cure your childish, (back then), behavior, I would be interested in your answers to the questions I posed to Will.
      
      I have enjoyed many of your reply research links, so would also be interested in your thoughts to my last question to Will concerning the study-revealed demographics of which parents most strongly favor corporal punishment. The ones I found weren't Right-wing conservatives.
      
      GA

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5. 88

   Will Apseposted 6 years ago

   People, are born decent, sociable beings, fully equipped to relate, empathise and cooperate with others for mutual benefit.
   
   Something bad needs to happen to a person to enable the rage, the self-destructive patterns and the  sense of alienation which characterises those who choose an authoritarian path.
   
   What might that be?

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      Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Out of curiosity, how much experience do you have raising children (other than your own)?
      
      Different children need a different approach. I'm sorry, but every kid doesn't respond to an 'Oh honey, you shouldn't do that' scenario. Or even a sitting down and discussing what the problem is and why it is; and working together to find a solution.  I didn't use corporal punishment in raising my children because they responded better to discussion and problem resolution.
      
      And, even children who aren't physically reprimanded can be abused by severe verbal reproach.
      
      I was raised on corporal punishment. It didn't bother me. There were four of us and we knew the punishment for the transgression. Only once do I remember thinking 'well, that was harsh'.  If we don't want to raise other people's children for them we should give leeway for parents to make decisions on how to raise their children.

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         Will Apseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         That is denial. Backed by some of the most powerful motivations a human being can have. Not wanting to admit hatred for parents, not wanting to feel like a victim, not wanting to deal with feelings that might be overwhelming.
         
         I sympathise but it does not help a people to have whole areas of experience unavailable to them. That is a loss.
         
         But at least you did not assault your own children and well done for that.
         
         Often when people have been bullied, they bully others. Just part of the cycle of violence.

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            Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Little advice. Don't go for a career in psychology. You don't appear to have an aptitude for it.
            
            My parents were exceptional parents. They tried very hard not to imprint prejudices. They taught us to think on our own, respected our opinions even when they ran at a sharp right angle from their own. I harbor no animosity and never have.

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   Nathanvilleposted 6 years ago

   I need to stop now to prepare the evening meal before my wife gets home from work; and then our son has organised a film, followed by an episode of ‘Warehouse 13’ for us to watch this evening (family quality time); then he wants to watch another episode of Primeval with me late this evening when my wife has gone to bed; not her cup of tea.  So I’ll be back to consider your question when I get a spare moment.

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   Credence2posted 6 years ago

   I think that you find a stronger correlation between education level of the parents in regard to whether corporal punishment is used in the home.
   
   I have to disagree with my English friends and say that I am proponent of corporal punishment and that there is a stark difference between abuse and mere correction with how it is applied.
   
   We are all born with those with those twin fleshy globes just below our backbones, an ideal place to render a swat or two without doing any permanent damage. Children can be trying and willful, the application of such discipline must never be used in anger. It must always be true that "this is going to hurt me more than it will hurt you". Discipline must be the ultimate goal and it is essential that we don't fail allow our children to understand that. Children can be tremendously cruel acting out all desire without any social filter. Often times, they are not open to reason.
   
   When I was a kid, my Dad used to tell me that "A hard head made for a soft behind".

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      wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      I agree with you.  When my grandson was about 2 or 3 I spanked him for something - when it was over he looked at the tears on my face and began to cry himself (the terrible pain of that awful beating hadn't raised a whimper).  We hugged and held each other for a while, and he never repeated the offence.

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         GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Wilderness... you choked me up with that one. Not only do I remember a similar incident with my young son, but I have also had a more recent experience with a great-nephew, (4 yrs-old), that my wife and I babysit for her nephew and wife.
         
         Cred is right, it really does hurt us more than them.
         
         GA

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            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Yes it hurts us more.  But if it doesn't then keep your hands (and belts and willow switches) to yourself!  That path lies to brutality and abuse, and it is far too easy to follow.
            
            Even if unintentional, it's too easy to follow - our pain must be physical as well as emotional.  Another story: my mother used to use a sword on us kids.  A springy piece of metal, or maybe lead, covered in rubber, it was a toy that was co-opted for punishment.  A Bill Cosby "6' wide belt, covered in meat hooks" - scary, but in her gentle hands never, ever abusive.  A neighbor lady, visiting with her young child used it one day, though, and didn't realize how badly it could hurt.  Her poor child left with welts on his behind, something the mother didn't intend and I'm sure spent a few hours crying over herself.  Flat hands only, please, and only on bottoms.

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         Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, indeed, children vary. Some can get the message with the most subtle of cues, others need to be scolded, or have a valued privilege taken away. Reasoning with the young if they are receptive and get the point is always preferable. That may  be more effective with older children. Younger children do not always understand the reason why.  To teach children at the youngest possible age to  learn to obey quickly and quietly could involve their safety and often preserve their very lives. In the face of that, all due diligence is required.

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         Will Apseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Did you repeat the offence?

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            wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Now what "offence" would that be?  The one that you have defined in your personal world of fantasy and wish were true and applicable to everyone?

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      GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Now that's an American perspective I can understand. But I bet you didn't know yours was a "Right-wing world" did you?
      
      I think your "education" point is a valid one, but I don't think it is a dominate determination.
      
      GA

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         Credence2posted 6 years agoin reply to this

         Now that's an American perspective I can understand. But I bet you didn't know yours was a "Right-wing world" did you?
         
         I think your "education" point is a valid one, but I don't think it is a dominate determination.
         -------------------------------------------------------
         It may not just be an American perspective, but one that would be observed by good parents anywhere.
         I never associated the rightwing as pro-corporal punishment and the left as against.
         
         You mentioned African American parents' penchant to not spare the rod. Socio-economic conditions that many single mothers find themselves in require that their children respond to discipline and authority as protection for them from the criminal element and running a foul of the law, where many tragic run-ins between police and black youth seem to be always in the news.
         
         Because Blacks are generally politically and economically liberal, yet employ corporal punishment more often and consistently mean that the association between liberal/conservative-no corporal punishment/corporal punishment may be the wrong model to use.

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            GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Ok Cred, time to move on and find something we can argue about. I certainly can agree with your comment. But I would add that their social and economic environment, as in satisfaction with life, might be as much a factor as your "danger" thought.
            
            GA

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   Kathryn L Hillposted 6 years ago

   <The RIGHTWING WORLD works like this:
   
   Punish children if they transgress (a slap, a bellow, a belt), without explaining why
   This makes for adults who are frightened of authority and angry with everyone
   These people need to be controlled by outside forces
   And they expect others to be controlled by outside forces, too, because they assume others are like them, and frightened and angry people are dangerous.>
   
   Oh, REALLY????
      maybe we should focus on THAT label!!!!!!!!
   !!!
   Tell us more about the RIGHTWING WORLD!
   I would love to know.

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      Will Apseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      These are a few of the things a rightwinger anywhere in the world tends to think:
      
      I am good. People like me are quite good. People who are different are probably bad and want to do me harm.
      
      People who are different are also lazy, stupid and criminally-minded. We need a strong police force to lock up as many of the different people as possible.
      
      Evil enters into the minds of people who do not follow the one true path (my path)
      
      Any of the above applies to conservatives in China, Iran, Russia, as much it it does in the US or UK.

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         wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         All that can be said to these tirades is "Boy, I'm glad I don't live in your world!".

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            Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Ditto.

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            colorfuloneposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            Parallel worlds
            Tectonic plates
            The earthquakes
            You'll ascend!

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         Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

         As long as we're making up incredibly bizarre generalizations, let's do one on left wingers.
         
         They all think:
         
         I am good. People like me are quite good. People who are different are probably bad and want to do me harm.
         
         People who are different are also ignorant, dangerous, backward and criminally-minded. We need a lock them up, take their children away from them or simply blame them for all that is wrong in the world.
         
         Evil enters into the minds of people who do not follow the one true path (my path)
         
         Any of the above applies to liberals in the UK. I can't be certain I can speak for the ones in China, the U.S., Iran or Russia.

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            Will Apseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

            An echo, lol.
            
            There are many ways of relating to the world but two of the most distinctive are these:
            
            Split the world into good and evil (manichean thinking). Own the good and repudiate the evil. Dump the evil on others.
            
            Tolerate your own bad qualities. Tolerate other people's. You can get a reasonable grasp of reality with this method.

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               Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

               Well, at least we all know which category you fall into.

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   Kathleen Cochranposted 6 years ago

   I was surprised how seldom I had to spank my children - because they knew that I certainly would if it was called for.  I only used my hand because it is easy to get carried away when you are angry, and I have to admit I tended to spank when I was angry.  Otherwise, I could find another form a discipline.
   My daughter chose not to spank her toddlers, and I thought it couldn't be done.  I learned differently.  Her children are just as disciplined as mine ever were.
   So I fall into the category of a spanker - and as my HP friends will tell you, I'm about as far from the right as you can get!

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      GA Andersonposted 6 years agoin reply to this

      Kathleen, my experience in my little world agrees with your comment. I don't remember spanking my kids, but I was a wrist and butt slapper, (to get their attention), but, I think my kids knew that I would spank them if needed. They just always stopped short of providing the need.
      
      I don't think conservative ideology has anything to do with a preference for corporal punishment, but I do think a Liberal ideology would think that - because they would think they are too enlightened to resort to such barbaric behavior. (snicker - snicker) *sorry, the devil was on my shoulder, I couldn't help myself ;-)
      
      GA

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    ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

    It's just another right -wing thing , as we ALL know everything negative in the American culture today is the fault of the right - wing , they aren't as educated so they believe in corporal punishment , which causes their absolute  political corruption , which causes world poverty ,which causes  violence and wars ,   all of these things are the fault of the right and corporal punishment ;
    
    -Crime
    -War
    -Poverty
    -Domestic disputes
    -Cop Killings
    -Islamic  extremism
    -Christian colonialism
    -Corruption in democrats
    -Violence against women
    -Animal abuse
    Don't forget , Trump  ran as a right -winger , no wonder he's so controversial , somebody  must have slapped him hard ! 
    
    Man ,I've got to find a better hobby than HP's.

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    Kathleen Cochranposted 6 years ago

    promisem: I think you are right about the difference being generations.  My daughter didn't try to reason with toddlers, she just used different methods of punishment than I did.  I think her children would describe her as strict, and they'd put a "Ma'am" on the end of it!

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    Will Apseposted 6 years ago

    Just to move away from generalizations. Your own Jeff Sessions and his new war on drugs.
    
    There is no evidence that locking up hundreds of thousands of non-violent drug offenders in the US had any impact on crime, or really benefitted anyone at all, but Jeff is now ordering justice officials pursue maximum custodial sentences, once again.
    
    This is classic rightwing thinking. Find a section of the population that have qualities you deplore (in this case irresponsible/hedonistic or self-medicating/walking wounded)  and punish them in as sadistic a way as you can get away with. Congratulate yourself as a warrior in the war on cosmic evil.

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       Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

       I have two young adult women who worked for me. Both served time for drug offenses. They both believe that the experience was what helped them to find the strength to turn their lives around.
       
       I used to feel just as you do but now, having met these two girls, I'm not certain either view is one hundred percent correct.

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          Will Apseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          Worth locking up hundreds and thousands of people?

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             Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

             As I said. I used to agree with you. Now, I see that there are valid results in some cases. As to the hundreds of thousands, I would say no solution works for all across the board.
             
             You may be like I was. Never having known a drugee until quite a bit later in life. My husband's step brother was a heroin addict. I would say incarceration was right for him, and society. Those on drugs I have come into contact with now, those who I have friends or family who are related to one; of all of them those who have never been incarcerated have done little to change their lives. So, for some segments of society incarceration is a valuable tool.
             
             Some segments of society, where drugs are an integral part of the primary culture, probably little will be accomplished. I doubt those who have grown up in a drug culture see it as a problem. They wouldn't see selling it as a problem. They probably wouldn't see stealing for it as a problem. So, oddly, the ones you are arguing for are probably the ones who don't deserve it.

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       wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

       Do you really believe that if those hundreds of thousands were released that crime would not go up?  That they don't steal for their next fix?  That they don't hook more young people, hanging around schools and selling the stuff?  That they don't contribute to homelessness and violence?
       
       You live in a dream world of your own making; a liberal dream world where everything is wonderful and fine if we just ignore it all.

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          Will Apseposted 6 years agoin reply to this

          I wouldn't be surprised if it did, since most of those lives have already been destroyed by incarceration, despite the heartwarming anecdotes that jail turns you into a good person, and gets you a job afterwards, lol.
          
          The fact is, most drug users are no more disposed to crime than anyone else.
          
          Your Jeff, though, equates marijuana use with heroin and throws everyone in jail that he can, using spurious stats to justify the witch hunt.
          
          Typical outgroup persecution.

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             ahorsebackposted 6 years agoin reply to this

             This is about as far from a solution to drug abuse as humanly possible . Talked to any cops lately , been robbed lately , had your property stolen , your  house broken into ,  your car stolen or ANY of your possessions ?   Any cop will tell you drug abuse IS the very reason for the increases in most Property crimes ,  Opioid   addictions  and their incredible rising use  IS the very reason for many crimes on the rise in America , where have you been ?
             
             I'm sure the perpetrators  all were slapped as kids ,........ Not !

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             wildernessposted 6 years agoin reply to this

             "The fact is, most drug users are no more disposed to crime than anyone else."
             
             And interesting claim as "most" means over half.  And even more interesting as anyone in prison for drug use, even smoking pot, as already indicated that they don't think laws apply to them; that they will do as they wish and hang the law.  Yet you don't think they are "more disposed" to crime than those that don't exhibit that reasoning.

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             Live to Learnposted 6 years agoin reply to this

             I enjoy how some with an obvious lack of knowledge and no solutions commiserate others attempts to find answers.

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    Aime Fposted 6 years ago

    I would agree with the suggestion that it has more to do with generational differences.  As time goes on we get more and more research on this particular topic and the evidence that spanking is ineffective long-term and potentially harmful keeps mounting.  You would hope that as this information becomes more readily available and confirmed by more sources, people will re-evaluate their techniques.  I believe it's already started with this generation of parents, based strictly on the people who I know that have kids and are well-read on the subject.
    
    I have not once laid a hand on my daughter and it will never be an option.  There are plenty of more constructive ways to discipline but unfortunately they require a little more effort than a quick swat so some people will always opt for the simplest method that gets immediate results.  Short-term, a spank or a swat is pretty effective.  But it doesn't teach them anything that other forms of discipline can't teach, other than "violence is an acceptable form of consequence." 
    
    I worked in a camp for children with special needs for a while, it's certainly true that not every child can be reasoned with or talked calmly through a situation (though many can).  But there are natural consequences which actually teach a kid [i]how[/] their actions produce consequences, which is what helps them make good choices long-term. 
    
    I wouldn't go as far to say that a quick swat on the bum or hand, especially out of an immediate fear (like a child darting towards a road), is abuse.  I would say it's probably pretty pointless at best and not worth the pain it apparently causes you to do it.

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    Nathanvilleposted 6 years ago

    The subject question isn’t something I’ve put a great of thought to before it was raised in the forum yesterday; although I have been vaguely aware of various elements of what people are saying in this forum.
    
    Having had a chance to sleep on it I’ve formed some preliminary views based on my own personal experiences and observations, what I’ve seen in my environment (locally and nationally), and from what I’ve read and learned over the years e.g. Dr Benjamin Spock.
    
    The question might seem black and white, but the answer isn’t because there are too many variables in the equation.
    
    As mentioned in the previous forum, my great-great grandfather (1829-1905) was a single father with four daughters (his wife died young); and although his daughters were a handful, he didn’t use corporal punishment.  From his diaries and other writings he was a very philosophical person who was against the slave trade in America; his closest American friends were Maggie and Richard Middleton.  He met Richard in either Maryland or Philadelphia when they were both doing their apprenticeship in stonemasonry sometime between 1844 and 1857.  During the American civil war Richard (from Washington) was a Captain in the Union Army.
    
    One incident in my great-great grandfather’s life, while he was running his phrenology business in Bristol between 1861 and 1901 (before his retirement), was when he had his hat stolen.  He followed the thief until he caught up with him and on confronting him said:-
    
    "If you need that had so badly that you have to steal it, you need it more than I do”
    
    And with that my great-great grandfather turned and walked away.  I don’t know what politics he was but (although he was middle class) I can imagine he would have supported the Liberals rather than the Conservatives.
    
    Anyway, his daughter didn’t use corporal punishment on her son, and her son didn’t use corporal punishment on my mother.  Likewise my parents didn’t use corporal punishment on me and I and my wife (who wasn’t subjected to corporal punishment either) took the conscious decision not to use corporal punishment on our son.  In that respect what we learnt from our upbringing and good advice from sources such as Dr Spock proved invaluable.
    
    As regards our politics, my grandfather was a strong Trade unionist and staunch Labour supporter.  My mother was a very strong Labour (Socialist) supporter.   I was a strong trade union activist and Labour supporter as is my wife and son.
    
    As regards a link between corporal punishment and political development; from just a cursory look at this subject I can see some potential coloration; but there are also other nature and nurture factors that all may have an influence (to varying degrees) on the child’s political and social development e.g. education; whether the child is loved or abused; whether parents treat their children as immature and talk down to them or as little adults and listen to them as equals etc.  Certainly, excessive use of corporal punishment may well give rise to more politically right-wing tendencies, for reasons given by Will and others in this forum; although others who advocate some form of corporal punishment are making some valid points too.
    
    At this point the nearest correlation that springs to mind is that of lung cancer and smoking e.g. if you smoke it doesn’t mean that you will get lung cancer, it just means the chances are greatly increased.  And conversely, just because you don’t smoke doesn’t mean you’ll not get lung cancer, it just means the risk is greatly reduced.
    
    As regards not being able to talk to a young child e.g. 2 or 3 years old because they don’t fully understand spoken language; with our child, as with my wife and I when we were toddlers, there are other ways of communication that worked for us, that doesn’t involve a slap.  It’s the same with our cats; we can’t speak to them but we can communicate with them to let them know what is right and wrong (from our perspective), without using physical force.  A good programme for learning those techniques is the American TV series ‘My Cat from Hell’.
    
    One last point (at this time) under British law, if as part of corporal punishment e.g. using a belt leaves a visible mark, then the parent can face a six months prison sentence. 
    
    Food For Thought: - https://youtu.be/ONNRfflggBg
    
    If you watch the whole video above, it’s quite an eye opener.
    
    Photo below is of Richard Middleton, who served in the Union Army during the civil war.
    
    

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       Nathanvilleposted 6 years agoin reply to this

       More Food For Thought:-
       
       Nature Vs Nurture | How Are Political Beliefs Formed?  https://youtu.be/eEHKb2bvv5A

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    ahorsebackposted 6 years ago

    I always relate humanity to the natural world and taking a look at that world of nature  ,   forms of familial -corporal punishment are a normal part of this life ,   as are all habits of human nature .    It is  wrong somehow  for man to ignore the natural order of things ,  seems to me that this debate is unwinnable on either side .        It works or it doesn't -take your pick.
    
    A right wing tenant ? Sounds like a left wing short-sightetness issue . Or should I say just one more of them !

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