Negro, please....
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2 … voters-men
So many conservatives seem to believe that Trump will get more black support in 2024 than he did in 2020. So what is behind that?
Between these articles and the barber shop, I have gleaned some of Trump's support among a small number of black men.
Some have said that the Democrats take Blacks for granted. I answer, would you prefer a regression of progress as presented by Republicans?
Some of the younger ones speak of the bravado and hyper-(I say toxic) masculinity displayed by Trump that they found attractive. As I date myself, I consider the hip-hop culture as misogynistic and violent. The "me Tarzan, you Jane, concept of sexual control and intimidation is outdated. One guy resents that there was nothing in it for him as a black male. I say, is that a reason to resent the success of the black female? Stop thinking like white people, we must stand together, who do you think is going to be in your corner if not the ones that brought you into this world? That is the black woman. In our struggles, misogyny is an idea that we can Ill afford.
Besides that, what masculinity? Trump is a draft dodger, a misogynist and abuser of women and he says so. He virtually fell into a pot of money. He is hardly the Titan of industry that he lets on. Trumps life has been characterized by selfishness and self interest, and he is a coward at the core. What is there to admire? Our young brothers are attracted to the phony Trump image and not the man, himself. I don't say that about Republican candidates generally, but Trump is a glaring exception to the rule.
I tell conservatives, I go to more than one barbershop where I like to see how our folks see things these days and why. And the idea that Trump will get overwhelming black support in 2024 is quite premature.The polls suggest that Trump has gained a slightly better percentage of support from Black voters compared to 2020. Nevertheless, I don't anticipate any Republican candidate in the 2024 election will see significant numbers of black voters vote Republican. I'll refrain from delving into the details, as my reasons would only present a negative perspective on the matter. However, I do agree that the needle is unlikely to move substantially.
Touchy topic, thanks for sharing your opinion.
A perspective is negative depending on what side of it you are on.
Don't refrain, why do you believe that the needle is not going to move substantially?
Race issues aside, why would I want to take seriously a man who says such things?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/donald-trump … 09917.html"Don't refrain, why do you believe that the needle is not going to move substantially?"
I feel some will cross the line and vote Republican, more so than in 2020. But will it be substantial, not sure about that.
The voting patterns of any group, including Black citizens, are complex and multifaceted, and it's important to recognize that individuals within any demographic may have diverse political views. However, several historical and contemporary factors have contributed, and still do to a majority of Black Americans tending to vote for Democratic candidates.
The Democratic Party was a key supporter of the Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s, the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act being one of the main reasons for loyalty. Both aimed to end racial segregation and protect the voting rights of Black Americans. This historical association has influenced the allegiance of many to the Democratic Party.
Black Americans, on average, face disparities in areas such as education, employment, and healthcare. The Democratic Party has for decades promised social and economic policies that aim to address these disparities, such as affordable healthcare, access to quality education, and social safety nets. These promises remain attractive.
The Democratic Party has often been perceived as more inclusive and diverse, with Black Americans holding prominent positions within the party. Representation matters, and the Democratic Party has made efforts to include a diverse range of voices in its leadership and decision-making processes.
The Republican Party has undergone ideological shifts over the years. While there was a time when a significant number of Black Americans identified with the Republican Party, changes in the party's platform, particularly on issues related to civil rights and social justice, did contribute to a shift in Black-American voter preferences.
Democratic candidates and organizations have historically invested more in voter outreach and mobilization efforts in minority communities.
So, are all of the above still relevant in your view? I see a wind moving through...
While Black Americans, as a demographic group, have traditionally leaned towards supporting Democratic candidates, some Black individuals identify are starting to lean conservative. The reasons for Black individuals supporting the Republican Party can be diverse.
Just like any other group, Black citizens have a range of political views, and some may align more closely with the conservative principles espoused by the Republican Party. These principles might include limited government, free-market policies, and a focus on individual liberties.
Some particularly those who are religious, may find alignment with the Republican Party's positions on social issues such as abortion and same-sex marriage. Conservative stances on social issues can resonate with voters who prioritize their religious beliefs. One must admit religion is under fire.
Republicans often advocate for pro-business and free-market policies, which may appeal to Black Americans who are entrepreneurs or prioritize economic policies that they believe will lead to job creation and economic growth. Which they may have enjoyed under Trump.
There are instances where Black voters have supported Republican candidates who emphasize criminal justice reform. This issue has gained bipartisan attention, and some Republicans have championed policies aimed at addressing systemic issues within the criminal justice system.
Republican policies on education, such as support for school choice and charter schools, may attract Black American voters who see these approaches as beneficial for improving educational opportunities in their communities. Little has been done in Black communities to improve education, in my view.
Some may resonate with the Republican Party's emphasis on individual empowerment and self-reliance. This perspective values personal responsibility and seeks to reduce dependence on government assistance. Perhaps being pointed out as different is not acceptable any longer. Mindsets change do they not?
Lastly, Not all Black Americans feel a strong connection with the Democratic Party any longer, and some may become disillusioned with perceived failures or unmet promises. This disenchantment can lead individuals to explore alternative political affiliations, including supporting Republican candidates.As always, Sharlee, I could always count on you for your candor and providing a through assessment of what ever question is put to you. Kudos....
What progress we have enjoyed has been supported by Democrats more than Republicans, so why take a chance with them? We have too many issues where the GOP work contrary to our interests.
The points that you have made as to why Blacks may be attracted to Republicans have been the case for some time, yet it has never moved the "needle" very much.
The appeal has moved only a rare rifled few. I don't see any reason to believe that that will change in the near future.
Well... this just seems to be the day where everything comes back around to this. I just did a bit of research to reply to Tsmog's query about Mass Shooters.
You should go check it out, there is some interesting information there.
I will pose a question to the quoted comment:
What IS in this society for a black male, or any 'cis-gender' male?
I doubt telling him its great for black women and he should be happy for their success is going to cut it for him.
When you have a society, when you have a majority of women, screaming at men that they are not needed or wanted... What purpose do those men now have?
If the majority cannot attract wives, cannot get good jobs, and cannot get good educations out of our schools today... what's in it for them Credence?As an old soldier, I learned never give an advantage nor any comfort to the enemy, which is Trump and Trumpism.
Thanks, I will check out TSmog's query.
Conservatives and righties are going to use misogynistic tactics to divide our groups who should be speaking with one resounding voice against the forces of reaction in this society, that is the enemy of people of color in America, generally.
Everybody wants to independent, Ken. Being a man does not mean subjugating others. No one wants to be compelled to do anything merely because of social convention. I certainly don't, and I suspect that the women would not want to be either.
The men that complain that women are getting ahead and not exactly being held from achievement with manacles and leg irons. Are women getting ahead because the men do not want to compete? If more need to go to college to acquire more education, then go to college....
I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I would recommend that she acquire a education and a professional and not rely solely on being picked up by a man to be domesticated. Life is too unpredictable and precarious today, for anyone to afford to live life without considering the "what ifs".I understand your perspective Credence, and I recognize you see these discussions mostly in terms of politics.
I recognize you categorize me as a Trumpster, wrongly I point out often enough. Give me a better option and I will go with it. Neither Clinton or Biden are better options IMO.
I think Biden's track record speaks for itself, very well, I will take Trump's first 3 years over Biden's first 3 years every time for our Country our Economy and our ability to live a better life in America.
That aside... you don't have to like what I am presenting... you can think it is oppressive or un-enlightened... however you would like to label it.
But it hits at the heart of the problem... cause and effect.
Our society is not going to evolve into a more enlightened utopia based on these Progressive liberating ideals... it is going to collapse into recession and oppression, this is what my research into it so far has found.
We can see the collapse around us, homeless in numbers in cities like we have seen in decades... robberies and assaults on the streets like I have never seen in America, ever... Transmen in sports, children drag shows, etc. etc.
These are all evidences of social decline, of a coming breaking point.
Have we been through these periods in history before... and if so, what has happened?
Sex and the Weimar Republic - examines the rise of sexual tolerance through the debates which surrounded "immoral" sexuality: obscenity, male homosexuality, lesbianism, transgender identity, heterosexual promiscuity, and prostitution. It follows the sexual politics of a swath of Weimar society ranging from sexologist Magnus Hirschfeld to Nazi stormtrooper Ernst Röhm. Tracing the connections between toleration and regulation, Marhoefer's observations remain relevant to the politics of sexuality today.
New Women in the Weimar Republic As the war ended, men came home to find their jobs replaced by women as well as their wives occupying a new position as a provider, bruising the ego of the returning veterans. The war “was a proving ground for masculinity;” the combination of their loss as well as transition in gender roles made many men repeal the ideals of the New Women.
This was an especially good read:
How civilizations fall
Barbarism remains an active force in modern societies, partly in gracelessness and ignorance, and partly in a loss of cultural coherence found among those who mistake a few years at an institution of higher learning for education itself.
--the tendency towards barbarism is an active force all around us. Hence the formula for overthrowing a Western society must be not “storm the walls” but “organize your own barbarians” within the walls. Those who hate European civilization know that it cannot be taken by direct assault. It must thus be captured from within.
-- In the course of the 1960s, a new tribe was established that also sought to overthrow the Western citadel from within and had notably greater success. This was Betty Friedan’s radical feminists. It was a tribe constructed out of women who had taken some sort of degree and were living domestic lives. Technology had largely liberated them from the rigors of beating, sweeping, and cleaning, while pharmacology had released them from excessive procreation. In tactical terms, radical feminists made one innovation that has turned out to be crucial to the destiny of the West over the last half century. They suppressed almost completely the idea that their project involved a transfer of power and operated entirely on the moralistic principle that their demands corresponded to justice.
-- It was only on this eccentric assumption—i.e., that women had identical talents and inclinations to men—that they could support the conclusion that there had been foul play. As with Hitler’s appeal to the Aryan race, the basic principle was one of flattery: women, it revealed, are a marvelously talented set of people who have been iniquitously suppressed by males running a patriarchal system.
This message entrenched identity politics, an emerging form of fundamentalism in which every judgment must begin from a supposedly essential self-identity as female. One implication (as with Marxism) was that a class of experts understood social reality better than any particular woman could, and any woman failing to agree needed the falsity of her consciousness corrected. Joined together, these judgments constituted the new doctrine now simply called “feminism.” This was a massive psychic transformation in the life of European peoples.
-- The most obvious fact about it is one that we can hardly mention, now that the revolution has succeeded, without embarrassment or derision, because it is a fact which powerful contemporary forces make recessive. It is simply that this civilization is, in the crude terms of creative hits, the achievement of white males. The history of Western civilization is a succession of clever men developing the set of traditions or inventing the benefits which, intertwined, constitute the West. And from Thales and Euclid to Einstein and George Gershwin, nearly all of them were male. They constitute the set of “dead white males” whom the radical revolutionaries in the sub-academic culture have denigrated and vowed to remove from their pedestals.
--I once heard a feminist put it this way: “There’s no such thing as a great mind.” This doctrine is so powerful that the simple factual statement that it has been men who have created what is commonly meant by Western (and for that matter, any other) civilization seems like an insensitive affront to the equality of mankind.
--Suddenly in the 1960s, this development was overridden by the new radical doctrine that women could and should do everything men did.
-- This was the continual drip of the movement against patriarchy, and it is a well-known principle of propaganda that a proposition repeated enough will crush opposition.
-- The key to modern Western civilization is its openness to talent wherever found. The feminist demand for collective quotas has overturned this basic feature of our civilization.
-- To replace achievement by quota entitlements is to destroy one civilization from within and to replace it with another. We are no longer what we were. The problem is to explain how the West collapsed.
-- It did not result from warriors storming the walls of a decadent civilization, but by a fifth column exploiting weakness from within. And the weapon of attack was not the sword, but a moral rhetoric demanding justice. Economic and political implications (such as that able men would be denied jobs now having to be filled by quota) seldom featured in discussion. The defenders of the status quo found themselves profoundly confused, partly because they had earlier acquiesced in regarding moral and religious ideas as merely subjective.
-- In the push-button world men had created, physical strength was hardly ever needed, especially in the more attractive jobs. Work now turned out to be a rather agreeable shuffling of symbols in an office full of friendship and event.
-- the Achilles heel of democracy: that a small group passionately campaigning for specific benefits will always prevail against a large majority whose direct interests are but marginally affected. Radical feminists were a relatively small group, but their message was plausible at some level to most women, and in families men had wives and daughters whose good they wished to promote. No political party would take up all of this program, but it did electoral prospects no harm to convey a general sympathy for the cause, and once in government enthusiasts would advance legislation under the motherhood slogan of equal opportunity. Very soon a network of powerful bureaucracies was bringing radical doctrine to bear on all areas of government. The courts could be relied upon to extend their power by regulating contract and by extending the law of tort. Within a generation, the revolution had not only succeeded but also created throughout Western nations an occupying army of equal opportunity officers entrenched in personnel departments up and down the country.
-- What however of areas where women are patently unsuited—such as the army, the police force, or fire fighting? They have in fact all been under attack because although women are unsuited to the rough work at the bottom, these areas have enviable managerial opportunities higher up. They are one more irresistible gravy train. The fire-fighting case was dramatized by the New York judicial decision that a test of fitness for the force that nearly all women failed must be discriminatory, and therefore illegal, an extension of the idea of “the rule of law” far beyond any serious meaning.
-- My view is, then, that the radical feminist revolution is nothing less than a destruction of our civilization. It has all happened in such a way that people have not yet realized what has happened.
There has been a revolution, then, but a silent one. It has taken place with such stealth, and so gradually, that people have become accustomed to it little by little. I am reminded of the famous Chinese executioner whose ambition it was to be able to cut off a head so that the victim would not realize what had happened. For years he worked on his skill, and one day he cut off a head so perfectly that the victim said: “Well, when are you going to do it?” The executioner gave a beatific smile and said: “Just kindly nod.”
Full Article - https://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/cour … inogue.htm
This now has morphed to Identity Politics
To the point now where only certain people, of certain race or religion, can be guilty of crime, based on whether they qualify as the victim or victimizer, oppressed or oppressor as determined by what Identity they have, not by their actions.
That we are lost as a civilization, that America is on the decline and as incapable of reversing course as an avalanche is of returning to the top of the mountain is an absolute certainty, all that remains to be seen is how violent and how barbaric the correction is going to be.
This is much harder to determine... and with the possibility of nuclear war seeming ever more real, its even harder to visualize how we come out of it.
You are debating one thing Credence... I am looking at things in a completely different light, but I don't mean that in a negative way, my ability to traverse these issues is spurred on by the push back I get in these forums, it is a motivator to my research.A lot to digest, Ken, but I will do it one spoonful at a time.
I know that you basically support Trump as the lesser of two evils, I do not see him as a "breath of free air" but more of a draft from a slaughterhouse.
Neither Clinton nor Biden have expressly stated an intent to undermine principles associated with democratic governance, Trump has. That, among other things, disqualifies him for any consideration on my part.
You will always have your right to your opinion, but I will always have the prerogative to disagree.
If equal rights for people is a problem under "progressive, liberating ideas" than I am all for more of it. And see those opposed to it as despotic and tyrannical.
Economics are responsible for the displacement we have seen in so many places and is not to blamed on people wanting equal rights. The drive to view negative aspects as caused by a breach of some social convention compact is a red herring and a tactic of Trumpism used to foment resentment among those that don't know any better.
I have a college textbook entitled "Before the Deluge" which speaks of Germany during the 1920s. Yes it was a debauched period after WWI. But was Hitler really an improvement? With his lebensraum and handsmaidens tale nurseries and such? The Nazi regime was an improvement, with its forced sterilization and eugenics? Hardly, you simply replace bad with worse, in my opinion. Racial bigotry and intolerance led to the extermination of millions of people. Is that what your typical Trumper is pining for?
Betty Friedan was making a point that women were being denied the opportunity to pursue their lives ambitions solely to accommodate a social covenant created formand working to the advantage of men. And she was right.
A great deal of the difference in outcome between the sexes was based on nurture and not nature. All human being have equal potential for achievement and greatness, it is not the preserve of only white males. No one is inherently superior to anyone else, that is the universal truth that challenged every racial and gender bias and stereotype since the beginning of time. Trumpers don't see that, though.
"The key to modern Western civilization is its openness to talent wherever found."
Does sexism and racism acknowledge that truth?
Conservatives harp about quotas. No one is talking about quota just the right to compete and participate. Conservatives in their desire for total exclusion of the other, play semantic games on these points.
Are Trumpers fundamentally against equal opportunity, if so, then I am against them. What is wrong with "equal opportunity", who believes that I am going to be satisfied in a society that consigns me to shining shoes?
My point is no one is "patently unsuited" due to solely to their race or gender. There a women who can qualify as police officers, firemen etc. and perhaps I could qualify to do something other than to shine your shoes? As I have said before the physical standards required for a firefighter will probably be met by far fewer women, but the opportune should remain open to the few that can meet the standard.
"That we are lost as a civilization, that America is on the decline and as incapable of reversing course as an avalanche is of returning to the top of the mountain is an absolute certainty, all that remains to be seen is how violent and how barbaric the correction is going to be."
I have been hearing about all this lost civilization talk since the 1920s, so what is new? And if the Trumpers insist in returning us all to slavery, expect a struggle that will leave America in a post apocalyptic state and that won't be good for anyone. Because, I am not going back.....
This is a brief observation about the foundation behind the Trumper and what makes their hearts skip a beat.
---------
"Robert P. Jones, president and founder of the non-partisan Public Religion Research Institute, likewise believes Trump has successfully folded the indictments into his larger effort to portray himself as the last line of defense for White Christian conservatives fearful their influence is waning as America grows more diverse. “Since his rise to power, with winks and nods to white supremacists and claims such as ‘I am your voice,’ Trump became the symbol of white Christian entitlement and power in a rapidly changing country,” says Jones, author of the new book “The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy.” “MAGA, with its siren song of loss and nostalgia in that final word ‘again’, was crafted as a rallying cry for this sentiment.”
Jones notes that majorities of Republicans and White evangelical Protestants each agree in polls with the sentiment that “God intended America to be a new promised land where European Christians could create a society that would be an example to the rest of the world,” while two-thirds of other Americans reject that idea. “Seen against this backdrop, Trump’s attacks on the legitimacy of elections he lost, a federal government that is persecuting him and his followers, and racist Black prosecutors all derive power from this world view, where the white Christian inhabitants of the promised land are being denied their rightful divine inheritance by those who were meant to be subservient,” Jones says."Kudos, nicely put. I have to give credit when its due.
Actually Clinton and Biden have said things worse, but this is a matter of perspective and the prominence in which the message was delivered.
Making a national announcement, with all the world's cameras watching, in front of where the Declaration of Independance was signed, calling out Trump supporters as traitors and domestic terrorists (don't fact check it, it was something along those lines)... you believe that to be true, you believe the messaging of everything that has been fed to you... from Russian conspiracy to Instigating a Coup attempt. ... but some 50 or 60 percent of the country doesn't see it that way, and sees this as bad or worse than anything Trump ever said.
And then there is the... its not what you say, its what you do that matters aspect of this.
They said Trump was going to start WWIII and that Biden would make the world love America again... ehhhh... I see something a little different.
They said Trump was going to put his opposition in prison or worse... maybe he even threatened Clinton with that himself... but we see what is going on, the system is attacking him and anyone that made the mistake of trying to support him... including lawyers, investors, etc.
But that is not what has happened and you know it, if you don't, it is easy to verify that changes were made, whether it was the NYC FD, or the Army Rangers, changes were made to the requirements that had to be met, or the requirements were done away with all together.
But it really is a small part... of a far larger issue... again, what are you going to do with the millions of men that no longer have a purpose?
What is society going to do with all these young, energetic men that have nothing to do?
They don't have families to take care of, they don't have career path ladders to climb... we are doing away with meritocracy and pushing for Equity, so there is no need to try... if you identify as a lesbian black woman you will get the job no matter how many men may be better qualified.
* Note - Rise in Autism - correlations based on projections
What?
You have not been around that long... you are ancient, decrepit, weighted down in years, but you aren't that old.
Seriously, if it is Trump who is the alternative to Biden... in the event that we get to November and it is the two of them... the only ones you have to blame is the Lefties, the Dems, the people determined to persecute him and constantly bring him up.
Its like you are trying to force America to select him, again, and it is working. The guy gets more popular with every court hearing and every new charge brought against him.
For the record, I am pretty much settled, this is my guy going forward:
https://twitter.com/SwissWatchGuy/statu … 9643309298
That's someone showing real empathy. Not because he has a big ego, not because he is a corrupt crony of the system... for whatever reason he decided to get into politics, and he is trying to do the right thing.
He doesn't have the charisma or showmanship to beat Trump that's the sad part about it, but he would damned sure run circles around Biden.Clinto and Biden have said worse? Again, more of the false equivalency from the Right, the sheer volume of such statements from Trump put him in another category.
I do need to fact check the statement to see what part of it you have conveniently omitted.
It does matter what you say, if Trump claims to get retribution against all who opposed him, should I not take him for his word?
If what you say about the policies of the Fire dept and the police is to admit unqualified people into its ranks then I am opposed. But, I will not abide with blanket discrimination based solely on race or gender.
It is up to those millions of young men to educate themselves and find gainful employment in a changing world and economy, and that is the way it has always been from well into the last century. It makes a lot more sense then blaming women and minorities who are doing what they can to remain relevant and viable.
What is it with the fabrication regarding lesbian Black women? You prove to me that you are one of THEM....
As for the 1920s, you speak of the Weimar Republic with some authority, where does that come from? I have always had a passion for and hold a college degree in Historical studies, I believe that I have as much knowledge about the period as anyone short of actually having lived during the time.
Old, am I? Yes I am old and experienced enough to be familiar with all the myriads of disguise and ruse that Rightwingers and reactionaries use in duplicitous arguments to trick folks into not seeing what is clearly in front of them. Yes, I am old enough for that. It is your side that operate from whale bone corset reasoning and set of values, desperately clinging to a past that will simply no longer be.
I blame the xenophobic and racist Republican factions (which appears to be larger a swath than I previously thought) for Trumps rise and his continued presence, Democrats will have nothing to do with it.
DeSantis, he is almost as bad as Trump, any of the Republican candidates with the exception of the younger East Indian man is preferable.That is true, but that is not how things tend to work.
What are Antifa and Proud Boys and these other violent and antagonistic groups if not young men?
The rise in these extremist groups, the rise in protests and violence and crime occurring now, during relatively good economic times... I imagine such groups will swell in numbers during harsher economic times.
Just a guess.
I am not arguing for these things to occur... I am digging around trying to figure out where things are likely to go.
Understanding what causes Social/Cultural revolutions and movements isn't as simple as math, isn't as easy as evaluating a military/tactical situation and projecting what is most likely to occur.
These things are becoming clearer now only due to how far the pendulum has swung. Which I am pointing out in a variety of ways, I hope.
When talking about young men, and how they have been impacted by the change in our society, keep in mind, this is the part of society that has a tendency to become violent, gather in groups, and get behind radical and revolutionary movements.
I am not looking for you to argue the moral righteousness of women's liberation, or whatever... I am looking for you or anyone to counter my perceptions with sound reasons why the country won't go down that road that seemingly all other nations/civilizations have travelled when they get to where we are headed as a nation... morally... financially... and socially.
Saying to a generation of young angry men, 'suck it up buttercup' get in the back of the line... women have been oppressed, transgenders have been oppressed, gays have been oppressed... so now we are going to right all the wrongs of history, we are enacting Equity and Reparations and all you young men just have to sit back and take it.
I just don't see that working out well over the long haul.I am listening, Ken, but the Right is stoking resentment against gender and minority groups to cover the fact that the capitalist system has created the economic disparities they all are complaining about. So, make them the scapegoats? Trump and the MAGA seeks to take the false narratives as to the causes of what white males see as their relative decline and channel it in the direction of xenophobia, misogyny and racism. How does that solve anything? From the standpoint of relative economic security for those uneducated anybodies, it is not 1968 any more.
I like this article which is spot on for me as to the why's and wherefore.
https://news.berkeley.edu/2022/11/14/lo … -democracy
If white male greivances can only be resolved with everyone else being willing to live underfoot, then we will have a conflict brewing.... you can count on that, straight from the lips of this "old man"....That article starts out with what I believe is a false premise... or at least a false/misleading title.
"Loss, fear and rage: Are white men rebelling against democracy?
I wonder is that on purpose?
What I have been stating, hopefully clearly to any who read this... is that this is in RESPONSE to the changes in society.
Society is NOT going through a change in Democracy... society is going through a change in Gender roles... a prioritization from Meritocracy to Equity (Identity Politics)... and a messaging across Media that 'cis' men (regardless of race) need to step back, move aside, get out of the way.
Now I have linked to former examples of when this displacement of men and gender roles has occurred... such as the Weimar Republic and what came after when their economy tanked (which is where our economy IS absolutely going... soon).
I have also quoted and linked an excellently written detailed review of how this has occurred starting in earnest in the 60s and coming to full fruition now (regarding the social change and the deconstruction of Society).
So to say young men are rebelling against Democracy isn't really the truth.
They are rebelling essentially at becoming 2nd class citizens, they are rebelling against the family no longer being the central focus of society, they are rebelling against having the ability to raise their children, having their innate/natural leadership roles taken away from them... at home... at work... even on the battle field.
Your argument is... that is great for women... so tough.
My counter... starting with me saying, and I quote:
What IS in this society for a black male, or any 'cis-gender' male?
I doubt telling him its great for black women and he should be happy for their success is going to cut it for him.
Your reply is he needs to take responsibility for himself...
Well, honestly Credence, that's BS. Society has cast him aside, society has taken his hero's in film and MSM and replaced them with women, society has told him he's not needed at home with the family, that he is not needed at work to manage and drive things.
Universities have shifted their attention away from engineering, science, math, etc. and towards the humanities and social services... things that women are better at in general and the focus of those studies heavily slant toward women's interests. Hence, more than 60% of college graduates now are women.
There is a swelling number of discontented young men, a situation being made worse by the millions of people crossing the borders unchecked that happen to be made up of primarily discontented young men. Its kind of like throwing lighter fluid onto a fire.
It is not 1968 anymore, you are right.
It is a different class of people who are now being targeted and oppressed. A growing number of them are beginning to realize it.
That is why when you noted " One guy resents that there was nothing in it for him as a black male."
I replied as I did.
Quoting your article:
" But the Berkeley scholars, across a range of disciplines, suggest that for millions of men — most of them white, many of them working-class — these decades have seemed like a time of unravelling. Industries are dying, and their wages are stagnant. Their political power and cultural status are diminished. Our core ideas about manhood and masculinity are in flux. "
Its off its mark... young 'cisgender' men, black, latino and white are being displaced. Its not a white problem though they are obviously the most targeted today. This is a problem that has existed for minority races all along, or do I have that wrong?
When their numbers grow large enough, and when the economy gets bad enough, I believe we will see a repeat of history... and I've seen no argument that sways me to think otherwise.If white non college educated men are overwhelming supporting Trump and his policy approach then they are by definition, deserting democratic ideals.
Interesting discussion, Ken, let's get to the root?
This as you say is RESPONSe to changes in society? We can talk about the bulk of the changes starting with the 1960s. The changes these men complain about was the by product of modernity and making this society more fair and just. Was that a problem for them or was everything that the outgroup gains, no matter how insignificant a problem for them? I can have no sympathy for that attitude.
White men as second class citizens? Dont make me laugh. They are still by far the wealthiest demographic in America.
How does misogyny and racism figure in as the focus of their "rebellion"?
Time changes space, Ken. I grew up in a time when a clerk (my father) at the post office could support an entire family in a middle class standard. During this time when the auto industry and the Big Three in Detroit ruled the world with good union jobs and wages. The "roles" that they say were taken away, were in fact, relinquished by them. The cost of living, regardless of conservatives' lie about it has risen faster than wages Now, to maintain the comparable middle class living standard requires that both adults work. Foreign competition in the domestic auto industry from Asia ended the days of higher wages and more union benefits, what does gender, cis-gender or whatever have to do with any of that? So we have moved from an Industrial Age economy to one defined as belonging to the Information Age, where does the coal miner fit in? Their whiteness is no longer the guarantee of innate advantage it once was, now, it's the all mighty dollar. That is a privilege that I can understand that they resent losing. But it is a mere illusion, a slight of hand by the populist right.
To assume that men are innate natural leaders is a cultural bias not supported by the facts. Leadership can come from anyone from all walks of life. While we consider a female for the office of the President, does the magnitude of the change over recent times resonate with you?
Yes, my reply is take responsibility for yourself. Why we (Blacks) were fighting a structural racism in America, was it not the conservatives that answered always speaking of "personal responsibility"? So, that is not good enough for the unfortunate disaffected and uneducated white male?
For these miscreants, meritocracy means that they are the only ones entitled to the fruits of American life and if anyone else so much as claim a crumb it becomes "equity politics" and that is a non-starter with me.
Society does not tell anyone anything, these people relinquished themselves and blame everyone else.
Universities operate on a profit motive, they are going to provide the curriculum that is most often requested. Who or what is it that keep young men away from instutions of higher learning? Do they really think that they should be given preferential treatment relative to the college graduate, just because they are white men?
The men crossing the southern border are not looking for gender affirmation, but are looking for an opportunity to survive and feed their families.
Black men have lagged behind women in educational attainment for some time, if black women take advantage of the opportunity to better ones self, what are the men doing outside of whining? That applies to the "afflicted" white men as well. In a way you are right,there is a certain amount of resentment among black men over successful black women, as the rate of black women who marry is far below that of other demographics. It has been more pronounced in the black community, as I cannot speak about other groups. We tend to see black women having doors opened to them with greater success than that for black men. This has been true and has been a subtle and diabolical design method of denigrating the black family. Women who achieve are going to tend to be attracted to other achievers. But again, unless you want a trophy wife or handmaiden, that would be true for most of us. It is an attitude that is contrary to a successful outcome, for anybody.
We once had a Great Depression with unemployment approaching 25 percent for whites and 50 percent for Black men, but somehow we came out of it. We will again.
Masculinity has as many aspects, absolute control over others is simply no longer one of them. Technology and achievement of parity in the workplace is a large part of that and I support it wholeheartedly.Well articulated, I think this is a wonderful explanation to a great extent.
Still, it doesn't address the concern I have, the point I am really trying to make.
We could go on about why the American economy is soon going to bring crushing hardships to all those people who have not the means to weather the coming changes. You touched on those reasons, America used to dominate the world in manufactured goods and trade, today it makes up only a quarter, a percentage that continues to trend downward.
That aside... men are being marginalized (cisgender men) others that identify as something else will be fine in today's Identity Politics.
Economic hardship brings social unrest and political instability.
When people are unable to provide for themselves or their families, they become frustrated and disillusioned with the government and other institutions that they feel have failed them.
We are past the first stages of this in our nation now, the first sign is always an uptick in suicides, drug abuse, and homelessness. That box can be checked... and this is during what most still consider a good economy.
But for a growing number of men, they have been left out.
In the past there were class revolutions based on the elites living large while the people starved... the French Revolution was essentially due to people being unable to feed themselves... Russia, Germany... in general people don't revolt when they are fat and happy.
I wonder how this one will play out, now that they have changed who may be the target of blame for the economic woes to come... the government of course will be targeted, but what about Progressive politics... Feminism, Identity and Equity?
I guess we will find out.Thank corporate America for why we no longer have an industrial base, why blame lesbian black women?
That is the Rightwingers biggest ruse. The 1 percent, the corporate class and the wealthy generally wants people to believe all the cultural nonsense as to why they are held back from being millionaires like them. Trump is one of that class, that is why he never really supported working men and unions, but provided plenty of lip service.When steel can be produced cheaper in Brazil, or it is cheaper to obtain pineapples from Central America regardless of the cost of shipping, the Hawaiian pineapple producers are put out of business. And I have seen this from 1991 to 2013. While Tucker Carlson sells the dopey right winger on the idea of "great replacement theories", Wall Street robs you blind. Out sourcing is the reason American manufacturers are not manufacturing. What happens is that these laissez faire capitalists are more than content to acquire their profits, while providing the gullible uneducated Rightwinger with a false explanation as to why they don't have jobs. It is Republicans that are more intent on protecting this class over Democrats, just another reason of many Why I distrust and can never support Republicans.
It is funny, when black men complain about this type of distress regarding their economic prospects, they were told to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Now that numbers of white males experience it, now it becomes a national catastrophe.
These poor downtrodden white males only have themselves to blame as to why they are notacquiring higher education, leaving only women available to take advantage of the opportunity.
So, Ken, why do they decide not to go to school, but resent minorities and women that do?Credence, its like you see what is there, what is going on, but then you go down this rabbit hole on race issues.
You are right, the industrial base was moved out, Financial Institutions like Black Rock and JP Morgan Chase and International Corporations like GM and Ford have offshored and invested heavily outside the US.
And the politicians in DC have allowed it all to happen.
But something much bigger is also going on, the subjugation of Nation to International Agencies and control, you really should become well versed in what the WEF (World Economic Forum) is, who controls it, understand that the UN now works on behalf of the corporations and investment firms, not Nations or citizens.
If you understand the goals of the WEF (and UN) then the efforts we see to deconstruct social norms, do away with the family, do away with individual rights to privacy and property make sense.
If you do not understand what their goals are (which they have openly proposed, there is little that is secret about their efforts to control everyone and everything) then you are just shouting in the wind.
The WEF & UN and by extension the American political body, represent the ultimate goals of dehumanization, depopulation, and total control.
The war against Russia is partly about this as well, Russia represents the old America in a sense. Russia is about family, the orthodox church, patriotism, gender norms... old values. Russia is abhorrent to the new 'modern' order that is being constructed, which wants equity, gender fluidity, a nationless world, a non-Christian, no privacy, no private property, controlled world.
You think in terms of national politics and Republican vs Democrat.
Its not really that anymore... its the depopulationists/globalists vs. nationalists, family, patriotism... stuff America was founded on that they want to abolish.Yes, Ken, I see what is going on and may share some of your concerns regarding the WEF and the UN. As the question remains as to how to maintain a balance of retaining American national sovereignty verses recognizing our part and contribution to a larger global community.
However, I am not going to dismiss relatively local matters while considering those things.
Yes, in my humble opinion race matters in America is not just a rabbit hole but a conduit. It remains wedded and infused as part of the American culture both consciously and subconsciously. While the more blatant forms have been ameliorated to a certain extent, at our true depths this is where we still find ourselves. I can no more dismiss racism as part and parcel of American society than to say that gravity is not an explanation for a falling object.
I say that Trump, his ideological allies like Tucker Carlson and others are bringing out what was always hidden and concealed out into the open. The white fragility and racial resentment explains why some one as loathsome as Trump has done so well. After all, only whites give the majority of their votes to Trump, no one else does. Seems to me that a "real breath of fresh air" would attract more than just the white demographic. The racist, xenophobic, misogynist stance of today's Republicans go far beyond being merely conservative. It tell s me a lot about all of you. The Right spend a great deal of energy trying to shroud the truth, but I know better. Reducing it all to mere "political" differences is just another part of the ruse. Your "old world" has no place for me, so why should I promote it?
Trump attempts to steal the election with false claims and with illegal influence in the Electoral College process attempting to discount my votes, and I will see him to the gallows for it. Out of all the offenses he is accused of, this is the most serious in my opinion.
At his heart he is a tyrant and an authoritarian of the worse sort. Authoritarianism is not the answer to any problem and still call it an American solution. Old guys like me won't have it and will go to plenty of barbershops telling all that will listen why they should resist as well.
I hold Trump responsible as the symbol of extolling aspects of American life best left in the sewer. The solution will be to dispense with Trump and scatter a disoriented MAGA to the 4 winds.
I believe that your idea of globalists verses nationalists is more of a false equivalency than otherwise.
https://youtu.be/4m4_KibqaRU?si=lINi5YhYEVTORlea
Even though to my ears, Trump said more racist things, what is your thoughts?In my world, everything is a matter of degree. Biden is an ancient politician and I am sure that he has said many things in the past that he was not proud of. But I have never met whites completely free of these attitudes and sentiments no more than you can expect to walk In between the raindrops during a monsoon. Senator Byrd, late of Virginia, was a klan virulent racist, but he changed and it was an authentic change as he got on board with progressive Democratic politics rather than switching to the GOP as so many others like him did. So I forgave him his past because of an honest change in direction on his part.
Trump was and is far more virulent in his racism and race baiting then Biden could ever be. Trump and Republicans still have adversarial relationships with people of color, can you really think that I can compare Trump with Biden?Don't like US Presidents anyway, although I'm OK with the Mexican President.
One Trump statement was.
They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people."
Half my family are Mexican and I felt like kicking him in the balls.
He banned 7 Muslims countries from the US and none of these nations ever killed an American on American soil.
My new world champion of extremist racist negative comments is Netanyahu.
Cred, I did look at the link you provided. I was aware of most of what I read regarding Trump. However, in some incidents, I knew the context of the before and after of his hyperbolic statements. I am aware of probably all that the media has shared about his misgivings. What I glean from the comment you shared regarding Trump is that you are considering character above all. What he has said, what he has been accused of. Yes, many things that have been proven to be true when placed under a microscope. You made no mention of his job performance as president.
Have you considered Biden's job performance? In my view, he created problem after problem, and we have witnessed little to no problem solving, as of yet. We are seeing a bit of improvement in economic stats, but we are not feeling relief. The many other problems, he ignores, and many have become worse, and we have not even begun to feel the problems from the on-slot of migrants that are living in the country. We are supporting two wars... and an increased amount of aid pouring out to several nations. How will this ultimately help Americans? Do you hear anything being done regarding education, or where are the charging stations Biden promised? I literally could list promise after promise he did not keep. He kept some promises, on his first day, to cancel a pipeline, stop the building of the wall,
Dec 6, 2023 - Politico "Congress at the urging of the Biden administration agreed in 2021 to spend $7.5 billion to build tens of thousands of electric vehicle chargers across the country, aiming to appease anxious drivers while tackling climate change. Two years later, the program has yet to install a single charger."
"https://www.politico.com/news/2023/12/05/congress-ev-chargers-billions-00129996#:~:text=Congress%20at%20the%20urging%20of,to%20install%20a%20single%20charger.
Biden revoked Trump’s attempt to exclude non-citizens from being counted in the U.S. Census, which affects representation in Congress and the allocation of federal grant money.
Biden ended the National Emergency Declaration that allowed the Trump administration to divert money from the Pentagon to construct the border wall.
Biden sent a sweeping immigration reform bill to Congress that includes an eight-year path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants and immediate green cards for DREAMers.
Biden reversed Trump’s ban on diversity training at federal agencies and federal contractors.
The economy started to collapse quickly and has had a very slow recovery. We still are paying more for everything, are we not? My heating bill doubled by mid-2021, and just last week I noticed that I was getting a 6.38% increase.
In my view, Biden has earned a poor job rating. So, I would ask how could I even consider voting for him. His character?
I have been steadfast in supporting Trump's job performance. I believe he did a good job and was working on so many problems that affect all Americans. I was never afraid for my country or concerned about government overreach, or an administration that seems to be spinning out of control. I saw lots of good things happen under Trump., but now I see stagnation, confusion, and ineptness.
Do you feel good about the present, do you feel the country is even heading in the right direction? What has he done to earn your vote?Sharlee, the REALITY of the situation is that the economy has gotten progressively worse. Inflation is exacerbating at an ASTRONOMICAL rate. Those who contend that the economy is great are not living in the real world. People are complaining about the rising cost of living. Rents are escalating. An upper middle class neighbor of mine said that things are EXPENSIVE. The only people who aver that the economy is good are either upper class or they refuse to face the dire economic reality of the situation. Flash: THINGS AREN'T GETTING BETTER.
I hold a man responsible for what he says. Republicans castigate Democrats for what they say is the weaponization of government agencies. Yet, Trump makes threats that are akin to the same thing, why does he get a free pass? Conservatives say that he really does not mean it? I don't buy that. It is not a matter of character and personality but a statement as to policies that he will embrace if he gets a another term and that should put a chill within any sane American.
What candidate for President has even spoke to the public in terms of retribution, embracing fascism and denigrating the press? I don't remember any. When Republicans endlessly whined about Hillary Clinton's references to some of them as "deplorable", why does Trump get a free pass referring to his opponents as 'vermin'?
Even if I think that the country is going in the wrong direction, which I don't, how am I going to benefit by replacing Biden with a man who has expressed dictatorial tendencies and designs against Democracy. In those statements, that is basically what he says. That is a far more wrong direction than the one many would consider that we are already on.
That is not the kind of person that I can consider to be a leader, or any kind of rational replacement for Biden or for virtually anyone else."Conservatives say that he does not mean it?"
I feel he means what he says. I think that's one reason many like him, he is outspoken and says perhaps what they might say around their kitchen table. So many Americans are feeling displaced, their problems growing, and being ignored.
We disagree on giving Biden four more, I can't remember the country being in such bad shape. My very common sense nature, can't see it any other way. Plus, I am not for the globalism he is promoting. At this point in our history, I feel we need to back up a bit and look to solve America's major problems. I hope to see my tax cash go to fixing our problems.
I think this is interesting.
"Black Lives Matter Leader Endorses Trump: 'Everybody Else Sucks'"
A Black Lives Matter (BLM) leader is backing former President Donald Trump to take back the White House in the 2024 presidential election.
Mark Fisher, co-founder of Black Lives Matter Rhode Island and founder of BLM Incorporated, said that he "personally" liked Trump before bashing President Joe Biden as a "deep disappointment" during an interview last week on The Kim Iversen Show, a streaming program on conservative platform Rumble.
BLM, a decentralized social movement focused on racism and other issues faced by Black Americans, is more often associated with the political left than the right-wing populist politics espoused by Trump.
"Because everybody else sucks," Fisher responded, prompting a chuckle from Iversen. "You know, I like Trump personally and I think right now who we have sitting in the Oval Office is just a deep disappointment ... I deeply have disdain for him and I really dislike the vice president [Kamala Harris] as well."
After being asked by Iversen whether he felt "alone" as a BLM leader endorsing Trump, he said he did not, arguing that "a lot of" other Black people were leaving the "Democratic plantation" and embracing Trump instead.
"I feel like the tide is starting to turn," Fisher said. "I feel like a lot of Black people are starting to pivot off of that Democratic plantation. For so long, we've been slaves to that party. Actually, we've been mental slaves, afraid to get off of that plantation."
"That party ... they don't value our vote," he continued. "Their policies are basically racist policies. I believe that it's a racist party that strikes at the heart of the Black family and the nuclear family in general. And I believe Donald Trump, he's the opposite."
https://www.newsweek.com/black-lives-ma … ks-1842100The opinion of one man, Mike, but as I mentioned to Sharlee earlier, the distrust of the right wing tyrant and authoritarian as inherently racist and hostile will keep Blacks away from any more than token support of Trump and his MAGA.
BLM has NEVER been a friend to President Donald Trump.
This is huge vote of support from a very unlikely source.
I can honestly say BLM is not known for its conservative politics.
I'm sure it was also unexpected.
The black conservatives are onboard with President Donald Trump.
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