The Government Paid for All Swine Flu Vaccines. Is this Socialism?

1. 81

   LiamBeanposted 14 years ago

   According to a USA Today article (last paragraph in the link below) the U.S. Government paid for all of the Swine Flu vaccines. Although a clinic can charge to administer it, the vaccine is basically "free" as taxpayers foot the bill for it.
   
   Is this socialized medicine?
   
   Is it right for clinics to charge for it?
   
   http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/200 … -flu_N.htm

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   1. 81

      LondonGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Wrong question, surely? Does it matter if it can be catagorised as "socialist medicine"? The more important question should be whether or not it's a good idea.

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         LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         To some here they are exactly the same thing. Socialized medicine; bad idea. And I didn't say "socialist"; I said "socialized."

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      sandwichmomposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I know that the government bought up most of the vaccines for last years flu- and most hospitals get it from the health dept.- it is not something new. The fees are for the staff that gets paid to give it. In Arkansas it has been required to take it every year at least for the last five years.- if you work directly in health care(This year I do not work for a hospital- so I am skipping it- forst time in ten years to skip).
      
      The clinics actually pay the government cost to get supplies- non profits  do not have to pay- not sure if it is the state or federal though.

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      1. 81

         LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Ah, I did not know that the clinics paid the government. So there's a reimbursement mechanism? So the $25.00 per shot actually sounds worth it. I WILL be getting it though I'm healthy and beyond the threshold age.
         
         By the way I have a correction. The CDC is recommending that healthy individuals between the ages of 6 months and 24 years get the shot. Anyone with a compromised immune system (and this includes the pregnant) should also get the vaccine.

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   3. 60

      Richard Hill IIIposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      No, I do not believe this constitutes a tag of socialism. Socialized medicine would not be charged to the people when administered. Socialized medicine is completely funded by the government. We are far from a socialized healthcare system, even though it has been proven to be just as effective as our current system and even more effective in some cases.
      
      Our clinics charging for administering it is fair, because the time spent giving the "free" vaccine costs the clinics money. It takes time to do it, and therefore they should be able to charge the normal fees of seeing the nurse that will give it.
      
      All of that being said, our healthcare system is a joke. Socialist nations have more comprehensive care methods than we do, and thier quality of healthcare in some of these countries is far better than ours. We rank in the thirties of strength and quality of healthcare...even Morocco has a better system than we do. So this "if we socialize it, our quality will suffer" is a joke. Good doctors become doctors to save lives, not to make millions...greedy doctors become doctors to drive german cars...we will still have plenty of quality with a socialist system of healthcare.
      
      Though I do not agree with a socialist form of healthcare, even though I seem to, I do believe that there should be some government interference in the industry. Like they do with life insurance. Life insurance is one of the most regulated forms of insurance, and these companies cannot make more than a certain amount of profit. Also there should be something really done about driving costs down, like they do with energy companies. Most industries, we the people, can be responsible to the market supply and demand rules to regulate companies in a capitalist manner. But in the medical industry there is no alternatives, and we can simply not boycott the medical industry without sacrificing our health. This type of industry warrants government protection from tyranny.

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   4. 57

      Cla305Judyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Nothing is free. Yes, the vaccine is a socailized medicine. I had the right to say no or yes for this vaccine. That is the only way that it is not a socialized medicine. Some doctors will not even take that vaccine because the study on this vaccine is not all in. I live in a small town. Almost all the children got vaccined today. The two elems that have about 900 students. Half of the children that got this are sick and parents are taking them to the ER. I have taken three families so far to the ER today and I know that I will have more tomorrow. These families are to sick to drive their cars. They don't have a problem with egg protions. So what is it that are making the children so sick? I feel that the Government went to fast to get companies to make this vaccine. That a lot has been over looked.
        I don't see the Government paying for the ER Bills for these families that they made sick because all the studies have not came in. I can see all Our taxes going up higher and higher. Blue Cross and Blue Shield has went up 40% in the last month. This is even before the Health Care Plan is even through the Senate. You make up your mind on this. I already have. Our Constitution doesn't matter in Our Government's eye and Our Voice are No Longer Heard.

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   5. 59

      kateperezposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Funny, if the government paid for it then why are we being charged $25.00 for the shot?  Is it theft by the pharmacy, or is someone, somewhere mis-informed?  They paid for the vaccine to be made, not distributed, maybe?

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   6. 40

      danielthorneposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      sounds like capitalism to me...

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2. 78

   frogdroppingposted 14 years ago

   Liam I'm thinking it takes the Michael when the drug is pre-paid - and yet the clinic administering the vaccine can charge for it if they choose to do so. That smacks of dirty profit.
   
   No clinic should be allowed to put a price on a medicine that's already paid for. The whole thing is wrapped up in enough controversy as it is.
   
   Sheeesh

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   1. 81

      LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I'm unfamiliar with "takes the Michael." What does that mean?

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         frogdroppingposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Ummm ... polite way of saying it takes the piss *doesn't cuss much*
         
         If there's a justified reason for clinics charging for it fine. But sitting here, I can't think of one.

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            Rochelle Frankposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            (See my answer above your question.)

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         2. 81

            LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            I'm sure glad my name isn't Michael.

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3. 89

   Patty Inglish, MSposted 14 years ago

   What about the group of people that are allergic to the vaccine - if anyone is forced to pay for it even though it's paid for already and forced to take it and dies from it, what a double mess. My father was allergic to all vaccines made via the use of chicken eggs. Me too, but less so than he was.

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   1. 81

      LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      My wife has an allergy to anything chicken or turkey. She's already gotten the winter flu vaccine and will be getting the Swine Flu vaccine when available.
      
      What do you mean when you say "forced to take it"?
      
      To date I have not heard of any vaccine made with any other technique than using chicken eggs. But I'll look into it.

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4. 67

   Pearldiverposted 14 years ago

   But You've Gotta Love Roche scrip
   Apparently the vaccine was trialled on bankers before being paid for by the government insider trading unit!

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   1. 81

      LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      
      
      Good! Are bankers the new lawyers?
      
      "What's a thousand bankers at the bottom of the ocean?"
      
      "A good start!"

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5. 90

   Rochelle Frankposted 14 years ago

   Running a clinic is a business. It employs people. It uses supplies (needles, cotton, antiseptic, bandaid, etc.)to administer the vaccine. The clinic has to be cleaned, heated, cooled etc. There is paperwork. I would think it reasonable to expect a small charge even if the vaccine itself is free.

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6. 81

   LiamBeanposted 14 years ago

   The question is this "is this socialism since the government paid for it?"

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      frogdroppingposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Liam I know but you also asked if charging for the vaccine was justified I was answering that part. And I believe Rochelle came up with a reasonable justification.

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7. 67

   Michael Willisposted 14 years ago

   I don't anyone should be charged for the flu shot at a clinic when it is FREE to them. Shows how Greed is ruining this country.
   There is a sign on the WalGreens Store here that is charging $24.99 for the Flu shot. (Regular flu, not H1N1). So, if you can afford it, you get shot, if not..too bad. I may be able to afford this, but there will be some, especially families that will not get the shots because of the price.
   I think anyone that does charge should be held accountable if there is any reactions to the shot. They make profits from it, so hold them accountable.
   
   And to the question is this Socialism?...By some definitions I have read on forums, I guess it is. Hey, if it is from Government it must be Socialism (Or was that if it is from Obama?) Hmmm

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   1. 81

      LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Obamalism?

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         Michael Willisposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         lol,according to some.

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8. 81

   LiamBeanposted 14 years ago

   Aparently Novavax has developed a vaccine that contains the proteins that coat the surface of the 2009 H1N1 flu. Their version does not require the use of eggs. From what I read Novavax vaccine can simulate a viral attack (to the immune system) with just those proteins. Their preparation does not require the use of eggs. They use VLPs (virus-like particles), but the FDA has not yet approved them though the vaccine is in trials.
   
   From the Scientific American article on this: "The advantage of Novavax's approach is that a vaccine can be made rapidly and in high volume, compared with the egg-based approach that's used today, says Ted Ross, an associate professor of microbiology and molecular genetics at the University of Pittsburgh's Center for Vaccine Research (CVR). "In the Novavax system, you generate a vaccine that looks just like the virus without being infectious," he adds."
   
   So, no, there is not a publicly available alternative to the egg based attenuated flu vaccine.
   
   Here's the link;
   http://www.scientificamerican.com/artic … lu-vaccine

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9. 0

   A Texanposted 14 years ago

   Maybe they should have used egg beaters!

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10. 81

    LiamBeanposted 14 years ago

    Eggbeaters! There ya go!
    
    So is $24.99 too much?
    
    And there's a side topic. I've noticed most chain pharmacies are making a big deal about having flu vaccine. I see it on television commercials pretty often.
    
    But, none of them point out that it's just the regular winter flu vaccine; not the swine flu vaccine...which no one has yet.
    
    Is that <cough> kosher?

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    1. 0

       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Is missing a weeks worth of work too much? I was a contractor for many years and I used to love when a customer questioned why things were so expensive. I had one who asked "I know how much material costs so why is the bid so high?"
       My response was, its not the cost of material its the knowledge of how to apply the material that makes it expensive. Even though we have paid for the vaccine someone still has to inject it, short of an IV doper who is gonna know the right way to do it?

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11. 0

    Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

    My town has a Public Health Nurse and she just had a flu shot clinic. There was a voluntary suggested donation of $10 to help defray the cost of the clinic. But it was made clear to people, if you couldn't afford that, it was very okay not to pay.
    
    They'll do it again with the H1N1 vaccine.
    
    Last year, we practiced getting our flu shots under emergency circumstancs. The National Guard came and we all stayed in our cars and drove through innoculation pods. It all worked very smoothly.
    
    I guess they were getting us ready for our mandatory flu shots in Massachusetts. (That was a joke people.)

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Are you sure?

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       1. 81

          LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Are you!?

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12. 77

    bgpappaposted 14 years ago

    Some don't want to take the HiNi flue shot because they believe it is being forced upon them (healthcare workers in New York as part of their employment, they get the flu shot every year.)  They believe it is some form of socialized medicine.
    
    I think Londongirl asked the most important question, does it work and is it important?  Most everyone agrees that it is.
    
    Funny sidenote, I can get a flu shot at Walgreens for $24.  But if I want to use my insurance, I have to pay a $30 copay.

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13. 89

    Patty Inglish, MSposted 14 years ago

    I can understand healthcare workers being required by employers to have vaccines. If they get sick from them, then their employers need to provide additional care as they recover, imo.
    
    Anyway, I may be allergic to the new flu vaccine, so I will not take it - eggs, proteins or any other media. I have never had any type of flu, although I have been exposed to several types in such a way that most people would have contracted these flus. So I'll be content with that.
    
    The injection costs $25 everywhere here as well. Pneumonia shots are $40.

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    1. 81

       LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Age is important. And I'm not implying anything here, but this particular flu affects younger people more than older.
       
       That age range is 6 months to 50 years. It's also important to realize that flu virus can "live" on a hard non-porous surface for up to two days. No direct human contact is necessary.
       
       bgpappa: That's odd isn't it?

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14. 81

    LiamBeanposted 14 years ago

    To hear A Texan tell it they'll beat you up, tie you down, and force a shot into your arm...or arse.
    
    

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       They just might

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       1. 81

          LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          Jeeze Tex. You just aren't happy unless you've got some fantasy scenario to complain about.

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             A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             You obviously don't know what complaining is if you think I'm complaining. If you want the government to control all you do, (and it sounds like that is just fine with you) then be the lapdog they want! Worrying about what I do or don't do isn't working for you.

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             1. 81

                LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                So far you always find something to complain about. Often interjecting a complaint that's completely off topic.
                
                Live that dream Tex. Live that dream.
                
                So tell me Tex, what if this flu morphs into something extremely deadly.
                
                Are you still willing to protect your neighbors right not to get the shot? How would you feel about enforced quarantine?
                
                In other words how would you feel about this stuff killing a tenth of the population while your neighbor is running errands all over town while infected?
                
                It's great and all that you want to protect everyone's rights, or maybe it's just your own and to hell with everyone else.
                
                But what about the right to life?

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                   A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                   Live what dream? I am all for getting the flu shot and all against the government controlling every aspect of my life, it doesn't get anymore basic than that!
                   
                   I'm confused where have I complained on this thread?
                   
                   Like I said you seem to be ok with a massive government dictating terms to you, thats fine with me, whatever makes you happy. I am sure you are also ok with the government controlling your neighbor and would do nothing to protect their rights, and that is the difference between sheep and patriots!

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                   1. 81

                      LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                      Not yet Tex, not yet. But then again you did imply that the gubmint's gonna make you take a shot. Or make people in Massachusetts take a shot.
                      
                      Damned gubmint!
                      
                      
                      
                      You assume a lot there Tex. You know what I learned in the military about assume?
                      
                      It makes an "ass" out of "u" and "me."
                      
                      Thanks Tex.
                      
                      I don't have a problem with "my government" enforcing quarantine if the excrement hits the air-conditioning.
                      
                      Giving someone a vaccination once they have the flu is a waste of the vaccination.
                      
                      The problem is you seem to think personal freedom is more important than anyone else's freedom. You know the freedom to live or be healthy.
                      
                      I think you are wrong.

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                         A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                         Just saying things doesn't make them true, I never said the government would force someone to get a shot of any kind. I said I was against government having the power to enter ones home without warrant, thats just the American in me!
                         
                         I would fight for the freedoms of everyone, hell, I fought for the citizens of a few countries freedoms, so protecting freedoms of my own country wouldn't be a chore.
                         
                         I don't believe in conspiracies and whatever you have concocted in your head as to what I believe is probably wrong. I learned the Ass u me thing long before joining the Marine corps!

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                         1. 81

                            LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                            So apply it Tex.
                            
                            And if you aren't a conspiracy theorist why is it every thread that gets started you've got to interject some pap about Clinton, or Gore, or some other (hated) Democrat?
                            
                            You just don't seem to be happy unless you are hijacking a thread with politically oriented BS.
                            
                            Hell the last time you did that the thread was about Letterman and his affair.
                            
                            Next thing I know you are raising heck about Linda Tripp and Monica Lewinski. Not completely off topic, I'll admit, but what the hell did any of those people have to do with Letterman?
                            
                            Not a damned thing!
                            
                            Since I started this thread I'll repeat the topic.
                            
                            Is the federal government paying for swine flu vaccine a form of socialized medicine?

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                               A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                               Whaaaaaaaaaaa!

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15. 61

    caravalhophotoposted 14 years ago

    There is nothing in Life that is "Free"  one way or another, we all pay.  It's sad that Seniors and others who are on fixed incomes that death could be the difference of $24.95.  I find this to be very very sad.

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16. 0

    Nelle Hoxieposted 14 years ago

    I would just say that it's public health protection at it's best.
    
    Those of us who are willing to get flu shots will get them. And if enough of us get them, it will protect those that aren't willing to have them - by creating herd immunity.
    
    You can't leave something as important as the availability of innoculations to an economic decision - market failures do occur.

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17. 69

    TimTurnerposted 14 years ago

    At Arizona State where I go to school, they are charging $20 for the vaccine.

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       LondonGirlposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Here in the evil old Socialist UK, with our equally evil National Health Service, it'll cost about £7 ($11) if you pay for your prescriptions, and £0 ($0) if you don't.

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       1. 81

          LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          See? This is why universal health care is so bad. It costs you less and everyone who wants it gets it. And of course all of your health-care providers are on the precipice of bankruptcy right?
          
          <pounds chest in pride> Damn! We Americans really know what we are doing. <cough cough> Excuse me!
          
          

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18. 56

    C.J. Wrightposted 14 years ago

    Its indoctrination through inoculation!!!! LMAO

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    1. 81

       LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Ya. Maybe there's fluoride in the shot too.

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          C.J. Wrightposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          NOOO, thats infarction by hydration, get your conspiracy theories correct. 
          
          I'm going to write a book "Dr Suess's Conspiracy Cook Book"
          
          Seriously the government is acting on information. Information that leads them to believe that this could turn into a National Emergency. I don't believe them, but I'm also not going to have to answer questions if I'm wrong. With that being said, I would say that buying the vacines is not socialism.

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          1. 81

             LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             Sounds like a good book from the title.
             
             There's no way to know if the government is wrong at this early stage, but I can tell you from studying the 1918 H1N1 and the 2009 H1N1 that these two versions of flu are having the same effect on the same segment of the population.
             
             That 2009 H1N1 hasn't killed that many people isn't the point really. It's early in the flu season. It would just be a guessing game.
             
             Of course if this takes off then the fed will be accused of not doing enough.
             
             Still, the government has already paid for 150 million doses of the vaccine. I don't think a single pharmaceutical company could have pulled that off by itself.

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19. 65

    mkottposted 14 years ago

    Some would say it is Socialism. 
    
    I think the word socialist is over used to make a point by some.
    
    I can see by some posts that people will do anything to protect their freedom.  The problem is that some will not take care when they are sick.  That is human nature.  Massachusetts passed a state law to make it mandatory vaccine ONLY under a declared "state of emergency".  Why?  Because people are careless and some are selfish.  If people would be responsible it would then take the government out of the process of passing laws like this.  Freedom is great if people could be responsible but that will never happen.  We have people that can't even be responsible for a dog.  And you want them to be responsible the the health of others? 
    
    I am all for Freedom but I realize that for some freedom means no boundaries or disciplne in their lives.

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       A Texanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, the government must protect us from ourselves, the government has shown an ability to streamline and be responsible for its actions, I must have forgotten.

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          mkottposted 14 years agoin reply to this

          They are human after all.  Or are they? If it were a perfect world.....

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          Cla305Judyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

             If you feel that the Government should protect us from ourselves. Move to another Country that fits your needs. I doesn't fit mine. I'm also a Native American. I know what the Government has done to us. I will No longer let the Government take away more them what they have alrady. I am also An American First. I believe in Our Consitution, rights, freedoms, and independence. To bad you are not.

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    2. 81

       LiamBeanposted 14 years agoin reply to this

       The point on top of their heads? Just a guess.
       
       
       
       Massachusetts has been a "bone of contention. You'd think they went 'commie' overnight.
       
       I don't think it's a matter of irresponsibility so much as a "I did this last year and the year before. Too much hype this time around." Then there are the mothers who've been bombarded with the claimed autism/inoculation link. No one wants their child to become mentally "challenged" due to a vaccine.
       
       
       
       Perzactly!

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20. 71

    rhamsonposted 14 years ago

    I am not going to get it,  it may be like the Kool Aid.

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21. 81

    LiamBeanposted 14 years ago

    By the way, when I wrote about the CDC tracking efforts there were 160,000 confirmed cases of swine flu in the U.S. with 669 fatalities. That was about a week ago.
    
    This morning the number of confirmed cases was 190,000 with 1,919 fatalities.
    
    That's quite a jump!

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22. 81

    LondonGirlposted 14 years ago

    Only one healthcare provider - the NHS (-:

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23. 59

    xiao_kangposted 14 years ago

    Socialized medicine or not, it is something that is necessary and wise. A major epidemic could be disasterous, why not do all we can to prevent it? Hopefully in the future we'll see more of this type of "socialized Medicine". There is too much sickness and death that could be prevented but isn't due to the currentbwealth based health system. My question is: what's the big deal with Socialism? What do people fear? If it benefits the common people then why not?

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24. 61

    tobey100posted 14 years ago

    People, people.  The 'government' doesn't pay for anything.  You do!  We do!  I do!  Where in the world do you think the government gets the money it so graciously uses to provide us with 'free' anything?  It comes from us!  You and me!
    
    The government is not a business entity.  It doesn't make anything.  Absolutely nothing.  The government cannot create wealth, create jobs, produce products, generate revenue, etc.  Nothing!  A government governs and thats it.  The only money the government has, other than what it takes from us hourly, daily, monthly, yearly, is what it prints without backing (anybody ever hear of inflation?).
    
    Please don't tell me the government did something for me free.

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25. 65

    AdsenseStrategiesposted 14 years ago

    It's not socialism if the money went into the pockets of the corporation(s) who supplied the vaccine -- socialists are not fond of enriching big companies.. big companies like it quite a lot, though...

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26. 60

    mel22posted 14 years ago

    nothings free so there has to be an agenda, Governments don't care about you because governments are entities. They either  1.) really care about you  2.) got paid large sums of untraceable laundered  lobbying money by parmaceutical companies to pass it while dancing in the streets (Pharmaceitical bailout ) or  3.)  want everyone innoculated to spread mass death and disease on the people ,Rosicrucianist style!
    
    
    
    or 2 and 3 both! WOWSA

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