What is the point of writing if you don't get paid for it?

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   TessSchlesingerposted 9 years ago

   I am told that people write for different reasons. Here are the major reasons I figured out.
   
   1. They write because they enjoy it. In that case, if you are not writing for money, please write in your journal. Obviously, if you're writing for your personal enjoyment, then you don't need readers.
   
   2. People write because they enjoy seeing their name in lights and they enjoy fame. In that case, get a character adjustment. Every single religion in the world preaches that we shouldn't desire those things, that we are to be humble and not seek attention.
   
   3. That we have an agenda - to convert people to our course, to educate or inform people, to provide people with information that is necessary for them to survive, live, etc. (example instructions on how to bake a cake, lead an army, or swim like a fish.)
   
   4. It's a living. Gotta make money, somehow.
   
   5. Just can't stop doing it. It's an addiction. In which case, find out why it's an addiction and fix the addition. (This is me.) Number 4. as well.
   
   Decades ago, a well known South African author said to some of us "Never, never, never write without payment." He then explained to us that the more writers wrote without payment, the less inclined publishers would be to pay us. No matter what the temptation to see your name in lights, we were to resist the temptation.
   
   Harlan Ellison says something similar.
   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE
   
   Cord Jefferson wrote an article based on who eventually pays when writers write gratis. Here are some comments he made in the article.
   
   "In other words, it doesn't look like media outlets—even very respected ones. even wealthy ones. certainly not this one—are going to stop asking for free writing anytime soon. And that means at least one awful thing for the foreseeable future: The writing game will continue to be one rigged for people who already have money."
   
   "Becoming a successful writer—or journalist or actor or wigmaker—is an ambition that, like pretty much everything else in society, is rigged in numerous ways to favor people who start off with money. Far too many successful writers will tell you that their line of work is a meritocracy, as tech blogger-cum-entrepreneur Jason Calacanis did last month, saying that the only reason there aren't more minorities in tech writing is because they're not working hard enough. This is a self-serving lie for successful writers to promote, because inherent in it is that the writer telling it is a very talented and hard worker, better than his feckless and pathetic contemporaries who are less successful."
   
   "When a website like the Atlantic offers no money for 1,200 words of writing, what kind of writer is best equipped to take on that assignment? A mechanic who works 10 hours a day and comes home exhausted, or a 23-year-old still getting rent money from his father?"
   
   I completely and utterly despise publications that won't pay, and though I have been approached by Huffington Post once and asked by a staff writer to write there, the answer is absolutely and utterly no. I see no reason to write for stinking rich publications gratis when they take the money and put it into shareholder pockets.
   
   So I must write because it's fun? And the fun element is my reward? I don't think so.
   
   What do you think?

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      NateB11posted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I pretty much came to the same conclusion a couple years ago. I consider my time and energy valuable and money is necessary to survive. I don't see the point in putting in work and not getting paid. As you say, if you just like doing it, you can write in a journal. If you want the ego gratification of followers, I don't see the value in that.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Just wondering if I was the only one who felt that way. Nice to see someone else on the same path.

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      Sherry Hewinsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Hm...
      
      1.  I have always done it. Sometimes it is fun, but a lot of times it is hard.
      
      2.  I don't think I want fame, but I do want readers. They don't have to know who I am, but writing in a journal is just not the same.
      
      3. Sometimes I feel like I have important information to impart, but in general, I have no particular mission.
      
      4. I make a little money. I could make more some other way with less work. I guess I write for the hope of money.
      
      5. If it is an addiction, it is one I can put down for long periods of time. I do always come back though.

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         Mark Ewbieposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         You said it for me too... especially the "hope of".

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            TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Mark, you made me laugh. I forgot that one. Yes, the hope of money.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Nicely expressed. Sherry Hewins.

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      gmwilliamsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I believe that people should be paid for writing.   Writing is a skill &/or talent which should be commensurately compensated.  It is totally unwise for anyone to write for free. However, in order to be considered a noteworthy writer, one must have superior writing skills which include an excellent command of English, acute thinking & analytical skills.  Many people who claim they are writers really do not possess the prerequisite qualifications nor skills to be considered writers.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         What if you are just practicing?
           One can write for free or not. The fun is in the craft.
         And getting good at it. Who knows at what point you are good enough.
         You never know. I find even Charles Dickens to be sloppy at times.
         No one is perfect enough to write just for the money.
         
         in my view.

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            TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            It's true that the more you write, the better you get  Certainly you can practice, but practice in private, and not in a way that publishers make money out of your 'practice,' but you don't.
            
            No one is perfect enough to write just for money? My late father wrote just for money. He was a journalist. He didn't do anything else during the time he was a journalist. Many of my friends are journalists, bestselling novelists, scriptwriters, and/or copywriters. And they all write for money. That's their day jobs. So I must be mistaken in your meaning... What do you mean?

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               DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               What is your opinion about Shakespeare?

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                  theraggededgeposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  You mean "of Shakespeare".
                  
                  Glad to help.

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                     DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     Nope, I'll stick with 'about'

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         gmwilliams. I would agree with you.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Is it okay if they gain experience here?
         You are the one who provides really tremendous prompts!!!!
         Why would you do that?

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      tsmogposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Opinion hopefully with a tad of humor
      
      Hmmmmm . . . worthy of thought while sharing seems the question. Of courage a question presented with eloquence one asks of answers while wisdom a quest. Could others lend support, oppose, or doors opened present something much more with discoveries through explorations of those many. (Notice not a question, but a statement) Key is for those who do answer, here of least, seems of oddity something assuredly is read, and therefore something was written.
      
      Discovery within ‘self’, here, is with ponder while wonderment not as much while the question does ask of ‘self’, “Dare I share a pathway of such and such”. Why, a mountain top need not be climbed imparts that in of itself would be answering the OP question. Hmmmmm . . .  seems there is difference not shared with the OP . . . what of publication. Alas, a conclusion with all is easily digested of one perhaps many more:
      
      “So I must write because it's fun? And the fun element is my reward? I don't think so.”
      
      Seeking more than the OP asks with ‘if’ the gateway of logic always presenting a ‘then’ followed with (otherwise). For instance with the OP as guide:
      
      If paid, then write, do not write. Simple enough.
      
      Next, we are asked, while assuredly most will be of a side of a fence saying, ‘Yes’, of the first offered. A condition easily seen is to be payment something must be ‘exchanged’.
      
      Payment:
      
      ** Monetary reward
      ** Psychological reward – hinted to as elemental; fun
      
      Take notice of simplicity. This being shared most certainly is not worthy as an expected performance. although could be explored with great distance. Of least is so, at HP, seeking of that first – a Hub possibly evolving to an Internet Article. Alas, possible there was a once followed with 'Now' result of the ticking clock introducing change. Seems once as such did bring a bit of wealth, even though were pennies piled neatly.
      
      Certainty says past two or three pages of scribbles, notes, places on maps, and of course more questions. Yes, a few hours of exploration with discoveries reaching onward while reduced is closer 300 . . . reminds me of a movie – ‘300’. Doest a moral be told?
      
      (A note: While most likely will be ignored thought only babble, Thank You, for the time pondering while writing was the medium. At question is a fable of self well practiced; “No Pressure. Have fun, fun, fun . . . as best as can be”. Next, a question be of audience be only of one or those many more. Another, if one, successful, a failure. Finally, with questioning perhaps there be something more - hope?  Of dare, be that only of self, publication of thoughts, is presented.)

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      LuisEGonzalezposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Agree. You said it quite nicely.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Thank you.

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      DWDavisRSLposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Why write for money if you don't enjoy writing? I say, if you don't enjoy writing find another way to make a living. That said, I do enjoy writing and do enjoy getting paid for my writing. I don't list my books for free on Amazon or elsewhere, though I do offer deals and promotions from time to time, and I do not post short stories and articles on sites which do not offer at least some level of payment. As to the addiction, being addicted to writing is like being addicted to the ocean - I don't want to be cured.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I guess we come from different cultures. Earning a living in my world has nothing to do with enjoying it or not. It's simply something one does in order to survive.
         
         There was recently a study which showed that something like 40% or 45% of young women all wanted to be famous. The problem is that when one lives in a culture which tells one that one can do anything one wants to, that when reality comes crashing down, depression results. This is probably why American has the highest number of people on anti-depressants in the world and why 60% are on drugs of one sort or another. And you can google that.
         
         Barbara Ehrenreich also touched on this topic in her various books.

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            DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            So change the culture

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               john000posted 9 years agoin reply to this

               When will culture stop being an excuse for everything? If you don't want to change it, moan on.

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         ArianaLoveposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I agree with DWDavis.
         And I think "Earning a living in my world has nothing to do with enjoying it or not." is such a sad statement. I'm sorry for your world.
         It's the difference between saying "I have to go to work" and "I get to go to work" I hope someday you get to go to work.

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      VationSaysposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Here's my perfect writing niche:
      
      You enjoy it + Get paid for it + Change people's lives
      
      IN THAT ORDER.
      I won't write unless I enjoy it. If I get paid for it, the better. Changing people's lives is an added bonus that helps me feel that I've left a little footprint in the world.

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         DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         You enjoy it  + Change people's lives + Get paid for it!

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            Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            +1000

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               DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               

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               theraggededgeposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               For goodness sake, don't encourage him!

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                  DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  what?!

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                  Ramkitten2000posted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  We should probably, collectively, ignore this kid who's simply seeking attention. He or she has nothing of value to add and obviously just enjoys seeing its name on the forums ad nauseam.

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                     DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                     So, am I a troll?

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                        DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        *silence prevails*

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                        Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                        … she said you are a kid.
                        
                        

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         But we don't change people's lives. Well, most of us don't. Certainly, every now and then someone will write to us and say that we made their day or something. But change lives? No, I think we may bring a spot of comfort or a touch of joy, and that's about it.

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            DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            You simply have no idea how powerful language (words) can be. A sentence may change a person's life. In fact, it does.

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      lisavanvorstposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      I started on hubpages when I was unemployed in hopes of making money, that was in 2013. Didn't make a penny yet. I am employed now, but would appreciate the extra money. Of course my writing I've been told is not so popular with readers to make money since I write poetry and short stories. I also will start my own forum thread and comment on these. So why do I write on hubpages? Because I enjoy it and I do not like Facebook or Twitter. I would rather comment here where most of the time, hubbers are professional with their hubs and comments.

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         Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I totally support those comments....especially how HP is a better place to write and participate in than Facebook and Twitter. I also write mainly poetry, short  and essays.

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         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Let me ask you something.
         
         Would you have started writing here if there wasn't the promise of possible money?
         
         What I'm trying to establish is if most writers start out writing because they want to earn money or if the thought of money doesn't even occur to them?
         
         I write a lot on G+. I don't earn a penny from it, but I don't really see it as writing so much as economic and political activism, i.e. I'm informing.

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            Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Interesting! I am starting to feel bad because I really do not write here to make money. Why would I want to waste my time with the effort it would take to do so with no guarantee of return?
            I am here just for the fun of creating and expressing and to see my name "in lights" and enjoy the process of improving through practice.
            Something wrong with that?
                 I think what might be wrong is this:
            The value of written works will diminish.
            However,  I really do not think writers/authors will become devalued and under-payed if they /we write for free.
            I believe the works of authors will always be as valuable as the ideas they present and the visual elements they utilize, such as illustrations, graphics, photos, etc.
            
            Amp and bloom is the order of the day.
            Fish are waiting for beautiful shiny bait.

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            Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            When I started writing here it was just to share my writing and have it online. Some pieces I had written 20 years before that no one had seen except myself and close family. I didn't even know you could make money here. In fact I was on HubPages for three years before I activated Adsense or enabled ads, so yes I did start writing here with no promise of money.

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               Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

               Yes, the truth is, if I decide to go through the effort to earn a penny …
               it will be a penny's worth of EGO!

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      Misfit Chickposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Bingo. I'm one of those people on a few missions, although I also write 'for fun' - in an actual journal, not HP. I have volumes of stuff - and very little of it goes in here; only evergreen articles that I am sure will do well in the search engines. In that way, money comes into play. This is certainly not the place that I 'make my living'; but a little bit of extra fun money a month is good. (I make between $80-$250/mo for fun!)
      
      I have also been irritated with these new no-pay 'writing' sites starting up. Where are they coming from; and why are they bothering? Sites like HP that have failed did so while paying people pennies. I can't imagine what writer would write for a no-pay site. But, if they are writing for fame and they can help you get it - you're still a traitor to the profession.
      
      Yeah, it's a choice. A stupid one; and HP isn't much better - but happens to be by a hair.

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       my-zoneposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       The best way hubpages can attract more writers would be to decrease the minimum payout amount.
       
       It takes too much time/years to reach the $50 payout amount & this is not motivating writers like me.
       
       If hubpages reduces the payout amount to $10 or $15 then more writers would get attracted to hubpages.
       
       Also, there has been issues with search engines traffic / not tracking Hubpages articles.
       
       Also, I think hubpages need to motivate writers by allowing all articles to get into search results.
       
       In short, hubpages needs to simplify payment, posting & acceptance policy too.
       
       Cheers
       God bless

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          TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          The reason content writing sites are not popular with Google is because:
          1. They don't have professional writers and Google wants professional writers. I read that on one of their blogs years ago when they first put out Panda. They want content that is well written, and them that means one has the necessary qualifications and is working for the mainstream press or something mainstream media, anyway.
          
          2. Most SEO gurus were using content websites as a means of advertorials and backlinks. That is not what Google wants. It is specifically sells advertising (SEM) so SEO is in competition with its goals, and when SEO gurus use content writing sites to up their clients on the SERPS, then Google sees it as an abuse.
          
          3. Hubpages isn't short on writers. It is struggling with Google because Google doesn't want content writing sites for the above two reasons. I assume that hubpages only pays out at $50 for financial reasons. They are bearing the fee from paypal and I assume it's cheaper to do one payout at $50 than five at $10. In addition, it would be more work, and the more work there is, the more staff are required, the more expensive the business to run.

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             my-zoneposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             I have written tons of articles as a ghostwriter thru different freelancing sites. For Google, its not about professional writers but its about originality even if it is reworded. It should not be copied thru & thru.
             
             If u Google, u will find top news sites use same articles with same content but they r not banned in search engines bcoz its Google's business policy.
             
             As I said, hubpages shud lower the payout amount to motivate writers. Just imagine someone stuck at $30 or $40 or $45 for years. Will such a situation motivate writers to write. It's common sense.
             
             God bless

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                Sherry Hewinsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                HP has gone to great lengths to improve, the quality of the site by unfeaturing hubs they consider substandard. They also implemented the QAP process to keep more substandard hubs from being published. They are seeking quality over quantity. They think that will make them more attractive to Google. Thus, it is obvious that attracting writers is not their main goal.

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             qeylerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             This is not exactly true.  Firstly, Google hit down various sites than introduced its NO PAY Kn ol, which was a total disaster. 
             
             The 'unfeatured hubs' posted elsewhere tend to get hits IF placed on particular sites which are NOT labelled Content Farms.
             
             I will be the first to admit that in 2011 there were a lot of poor items full of SEO and Keywords which said nothing. 
             
             The problem is how Hubpages countered this; No Links. No Bolds.  This is obvious silly when one needs to refer to an Authority to prove their point.
             
             I.E. I wrote an item earlier today, before the BBC mentioned the ISIS oil bought by Turkey.   I used an authority (this is on another site) to prove my point.  Yes, now that the BBC is airing this, I wouldn't need the authority, but at the time I used it to prevent people from thinking I 'made it up'.
             
             Bolding is usually used when one posts the name of a book or movie, which can't be done here.
             
             So there's a lot to it.

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                RonElFranposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                qeyler, I don't think "no links, no bolds" is HP's policy. I use both all the time and have never had a problem. It may be that such items are evaluated for appropriateness or overuse, but they are not forbidden.

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       Titen-Sxullposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I started writing in school with a few attempts at limericks and poems. After that I dabbled in fan-fiction and would show it off to my friends and put them as characters in the stories.
       
       Later as a teenager I got my first computer and when I was 16 one of my teachers told me I should write a book. So I did, I wrote what I considered at the time to be my comedic Magnum Opus. Of course it never got published and in retrospect it wasn't all that funny but it kicked my writing into high gear.
       
       It's really a lifelong thing, being a writer, I find I tend to punish myself mentally if I don't do any writing for a while, you can feel that desire to get the thoughts and images in your head out onto paper gnawing at the back of your mind. For me it isn't about trying to make a living, although I would try to make a living writing if I thought I was good enough at it.

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       qeylerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I absolutely agree with you.   This is exactly what has happened.  There was a time that Triond paid 1c per 6 views.  That was no big deal.  There was a time even a person who wrote maybe four items a week could gain about $100 a month without a blink.
       
       Now, 34c is what you get...and some get less...for one needs 1000 hits for that 1c.
       
       We have to do something.

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       Quillianposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       That's a good start, but what can be done? The "let's all go on strike" idea isn't realistic so can you think of something else?

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       Palesapertuniaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       The only time i ever write for free is when i write fiction knowing there is no other place that will pay me for that

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       kaiyan717posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I don't understand why another writer's reason for working is anyone's business. I make a living as a fiction writer, but I will write what and when I want to. You are missing a big part of writing for people. The need to be heard, community, sharing, that is content. If you write in a journal, there is no feedback, no sharing, no community. Why does it matter why people write? People will pay for good content. I have never had a problem finding a way for it to pay. Those that do, should try something else if that is what they want to get out of it. Places like this let anybody have a voice and well, they pay me monthly, so what is wrong with that?
       Are you seriously suggesting that writers that work for free, somehow negate the ones that want to get paid for it? I mean, think of it as this, television is still free with a digital converter, yet people still pay for what they want through cable, Netflix, etc. If you produce writing that people want to read, the money will come in the right platform.
       You can't force the world to change, you adapt to makes it work for you.

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          Billrrrrposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Well said.

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             TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             It's not.
             
             However, it is a problem when only a handful of writers can find sufficient work to work full time. Some statistics I read some years ago say that 84% of Americans think they have  book inside them and they want to write.
             
             However, fewer than .01% had actually been published.
             
             The average freelance writer income is $2000 per month, and I can't remember the percentage of full time staff writer jobs available for writers but it's very small.
             
             My question has nothing to do with whether one enjoys writing or not. It is whether it is ethical (for the greater good) to provide free material to publishing houses which earn millions. They can afford to pay writers but don't do so on the basis that writers 'enjoy' it.
             
             In other words, writers are used.
             
             Don't you have an issue with the societal impact of writers who write gratis?

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          billybucposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Love this response

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       Billrrrrposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       What is the point of writing if you don't get paid for it?
       Perhaps you should ask this of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

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       realtalk247posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       #3 states a great point for writing. Helping others or providing a way to enrich others lives is a self-less ambition that gives to others and can fulfill one's passion and purpose.
       Besides-they always say "build it and they will come."
       When you write because you love what you do you tend to touch others. From there you build a following, supporters of your work. From there  comes opportunity to receive financial compensation. When you have a passion for what you do you can increase your finances and touch the lives of others at the same time.

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          Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Brilliant!

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             Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             Thanks for that... Here's Hoping!!!!

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   Mark Ewbieposted 9 years ago

   OK I feel slightly mean now.  Here is some advice that your analyst would charge big bucks for.
   
   Drop the memes.  They obviously piss people off - so don't do them.  They are NOT funny or clever.
   
   Interact in a more give and take way.  Read what people say, try to contribute on topic and with some degree of sense and thought.
   
   Consider there are other people on here.  It is NOT all about you. We SHARE these forums and sometimes learn and swap useful titbits.  News, tips, or just moans - they make the place worth visiting.
   
   Some people are assholes.  But not ALL the time.

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   DasEngelposted 9 years ago

   

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      Mark Ewbieposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Pathetic.
      
      Good bye.

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         DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         

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   Stacie Lposted 9 years ago

   If you write on a blog, you don't get direct payment, but over time, may be paid better as the blog ads generate revenue. I've been trying this tactic for a long time without making much money, but I guess I am hopeful.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Actually, Stacie, that's not how blogs make money. Successful bloggers stick to one topic and are approached by marketers and ad agencies. In return for writing what is effectively advertorial, they get paid substantial amounts of money.
      
      So, for instance, if someone had a successful blog about babies with about a million readers, an agency would call the blogger and pay her, say $10,000 to say how she preferred this particular perambulator or that particular brand.
      
      That is the way successful bloggers make their money. It has little to do with Adsense. Adsense hasn't really been a source of a good income for quite a while.

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         DrMark1961posted 9 years agoin reply to this

         I hope this works! I do not have any ads on my blog so it is not generating revenue yet--the writing is just to distribute information.

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            TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

            Promotional or with the intent to inform?

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               DrMark1961posted 9 years agoin reply to this

               I am writing it with the intent to inform, but, as you have pointed out, it is certainly nice to earn a little too.

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                  Jean Bakulaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                  Exactly. And if it helps us feel good in the creative process, that's another bonus.

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   Stacie Lposted 9 years ago

   Obviously I'm not that successful

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   DivineHeroineposted 9 years ago

   At times, I write to help recover myself from traumatic experiences, but what matters most is I write to heal others and help inspire them.
   Knowing that they learned something from it all or be uplifted after reading what I wrote is worth more than all the money in the world.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      A better site for that would be writing.com. You'll get followers, admiration, and no pay. But that kind of writing doesn't generate much of an income anyway.

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         DasEngelposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Just checked out Writing.com. I think HubPages should acquire it!

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         tsmogposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         Thank You!! I had not known of this resource and certainly will consider. And, too, a great recommendation for a friend banned by HP once long ago, even though success today with children books as writer and illustrator. There is value with the social enterprise at times lending toward the commercial perhaps a different pathway?

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      Jean Bakulaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Divine Heroine,
      I also write because it heals me and I hope that some of what I write is healing or helpful to others. I like to get paid, but am not ruled by money. Many people have written to me on various group sites and personal blogs and complimented my writing, but it's the ones who told me that I helped them or made them feel better that meant the most to me. When we have a certain niche, part of our reason for having it should be to teach what we have learned; to pass on our knowledge. Money comes and goes. Creative outlets are important in life.

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         Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

         +1

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   Jodahposted 9 years ago

   Pay me $5.00 and I'll write a 100 word comment

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      VationSaysposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      hahaha! #Win

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      billybucposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      Love it, John!

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   DasEngelposted 9 years ago

   

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9. 88

   Nell Roseposted 9 years ago

   I think the answer to the question why write on here etc, has got to be:
   
   'if you have to ask, then you are not a writer'
   
   I read that somewhere, and to be honest its nearly true, I write on here for the fun of it, the research, hoping it will help others and so on. And the money does come in handy even if its only a little bit. If I get an idea to write then I have to get it down. I enjoy the 'company' of other writers on here, made some awesome friends, and I love reading their stuff too.

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      TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

      The question was not why write on hubpages. It was why write without payment. Why write gratis? Why damage the profession by being willing to write for nothing?

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    Lets say HP shuts down because only people who want to make money write here.
      Lets just say the creative ones who are still kind of practicing or are trying to change the world with their common sense and wisdom decide to take their words and go …
       well, that would be sad!
    wouldn't it?

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I'm not sure where this notion of practicing writing comes from. Bear in mind that I'm in my mid-60s and when I started writing, the world was a very different place.
       
       Nobody practiced writing. We simply wrote and submitted to print magazines for publication. If it was accepted, we got paid. If it wasn't accepted, we didn't get paid.
       
       There weren't any creative writing courses either. You just wrote a book, sent it to a publishing house, and if it got accepted, it was published.
       
       Nobody suffered because people weren't practicing writing.
       
       So you're suggesting that people who earn money on hubpages can't change the world because they don't have common sense and wisdom. And they're not creative either. Surely, it's the one's who are earning money that are getting the readership precisely because they are offering something that people want to read?

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I wish I understood your actual point.
          
          <"Nobody practiced writing. We simply wrote and submitted to print magazines for publication. If it was accepted, we got paid. If it wasn't accepted, we didn't get paid.">
          
          I feel sorry for you when you state such a thing.
          Writers enjoy the process of writing and ALWAYS HAVE!!!!
          Practice makes perfect. When you get rejected you wonder why.
          You figure out where you could IMPROVE!
          Who is a perfect writer?
          YOU?
          
          I guess so.

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             TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             You've been taught to believe that. It's a new belief system that has come about these last 20 or so years. It was never in existence prior to that - not outside America, anyway.
             
             I never ever practiced writing. My late father didn't. I do not know anyone of my generation that did. And we didn't write for pleasure. We wrote for a living.
             
             The point is that the more writers who are prepared to write for nothing, the less we are able to get paid. If all writers refused to write unless they are paid, then we wouldn't be in the mess we are in.
             
             For the record, do you know that in the UK and in South Africa, letters to the editor are paid for. At one point, I earned enough from writing letters to the editor not to have another income. That said, a fair number of times I would have the winning letter. Sometimes it would be prizes; other times cash. But it wasn't to be sneezed at. In America, you get nothing. Why?
             
             In any event, to repeat my point, the more writers there are who are prepared to write without pay, the more publishers will refuse to pay writers.
             
             The article attached to my op explained a lot of it. As a result of this (NEW) expectation by publishers, only the rich can now get the opportunity to become professional writers.

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                qeylerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                I know exactly what you are saying.  In Ja. I wrote a couple of letters to the Editor cause I was cheesed off and they gave me a slot to write for the paper.  I mean, I never 'practiced'  I never was 'tested'. 
                
                You have to remember, when you were in primary school, (like 6th grade) what you were taught, what you knew, is equivalent to a High School Senior. 
                
                There has been a serious dumbing down coupled with a kind of 'Animal Farm' sheep production.  1984 arrived in 2002.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    I would say even those who write professionally are practicing every single time they write. What if they were not writing for money OR pleasure, Their writing skills would diminish.
    The Way I see It
    
    Also if HubPages only wants serious money-making types they should state it.
    
    
    So, why this discussion anyway?

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    peeplesposted 9 years ago

    I don't need anything for writing. Writing to me is like reading a book, gardening, or watching tv. It's for relaxation. I certainly don't do it for some form of fame, I don't even use my real name. I get paid a fair price for what I write, but it certainly isn't enough to consider it a money making adventure.
    I write because my mind is filled with words and I like to write them instead of speak them sometimes.
    I also have a unique background and hope that by sharing it maybe I can help someone out there. I'm just hopeful that some foster kid or abused kid out there finds some peace because of something I have written, or some foster parent realizes they can do things different.
    I got an email a couple years ago from a woman, just out of foster care. She signed up here and emailed me through HP (not sure if that is still a feature). She had gone through similar situations as I had and after reading the article I wrote she wanted to reach out to me to feel like she had someone who understood. I still wonder about her today, and am glad for a moment she felt connected and understood.  I feel like I have good reasons to write.
    I wrote here for 2 years without signing up for adsense or any of the ad programs. I only signed up for it after my husband suggested it. This is no different that me watching tv. Just the thing I do at the end of the day to relax.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    I think I am missing an important piece of info as to why this thread was started.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       To point out that if writers will insist on writing for nothing just so that they can get the 'satisfaction' of writing, that publishers will take advantage of it, and in the end fewer and fewer writers will get paid.
       
       The attached article explains that we are now at a point where publishers feel so entitled to have writers work gratis that only those writers who can support themselves for a couple of years actually eventually get to have sufficient credibility to become formally employed.
       
       This is a result of two different streams.
       
       The first is that business has been encouraged to use every opportunity to employ people without pay and they give all sorts of reasons for that.
       
       The second is that writers have been conned to believe that one has to write gratis.
       
       The truth is that I grew up in a world where we were paid for our writing. All of us. We never wrote gratis.
       
       Now it's a disease.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Well, thanks for ranting.
          Things change.
          
            We could all go on and on and on.
          Why bother.
          
          
          There are other ways to make money!

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             TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             Not if you're a writer. I have been writing since 1963.
             
             But besides that, so you're saying that if one wants to be a writer then one must just make peace with the fact that one mustn't be paid, because writing doesn't deserve to be paid. One must just write for the joy of helping people. Why not become a nurse or a priest? And do it all gratis?
             
             Why shouldn't writers be paid for their work?

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    <" … one must have superior writing skills which include an excellent command of English, acute thinking & analytical skills."> Not to mention a sense of how things should be spelled.
    
    
    How are these skills developed would you say?

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    So, good writers are just BORN? And the rest of us should stay in our caves painting bison on the walls?
    I really disagree.
    
    Really, really disagree.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Tough. Every single best selling writer I have spoken to at San Diego Comic Con International has told me that it's a talent. It is. Throughout the 50s and 60s, all authors said it was a talent. I was already submitting for publication at the age of 10 or 11 and my work was always published. I can assure you that I have never been trained as a writer and I never worked at it.
       
       In my day, if you wanted a job as a journalist, you didn't have to go to school to train to be a journalist. At the tender age of 16, you submitted some of your writing to the editor. If he thought you could write, he employed you. It was that simple.
       
       However, that is not the point of my post. I really don't care if people write or not. What I care about is that because so many are willing to write without pay, more and more publishers (including Huffington Post) think it's perfectly acceptable for writers not to get paid.
       
       After all, writers get satisfaction from their writing. That's their reward. Doctors and nurses and accountants and all the others obviously don't derive satisfaction from their jobs, so they must get paid.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I am really quite used to not getting paid for what I do. I am a swimming teacher. Aquatics is poverty city.
          We lifeguards /swimming teachers / Aqua Fit instructors are are all willing to work for low pay because it is just so darn fun!
          Thats life.
            As far as writing, the computer/internet is to blame.
          You gotta go with the flow.
          Maybe if you loosen up (,) (would a comma go there or not?) your writing will improve!
          Then you could get a book published!
          Right?

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             TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             I'm an economic activist (as opposed to a political activist). I insist that people get paid for their work, and that they get paid a living wage.
             
             You think that the more fun a job is, the less one should be paid? A lot of people would disagree with you.   Why are you so willing to work for next to nothing?
             
             This isn't about me, by the way. You seem to think it is. I have books published. I have had thousands of articles published in print and on the web. I have worked as an editor and ghostwriter for publishing houses. Google me.
             
             I'm talking about the market for writers, and I'm trying to encourage a mood where writers begin, universally, to insist on being paid. The only reason that writers would be loathe to do this is because, deep down,they think that they won't be paid. However, if every publication and website paid, then there is no reason for that fear.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    Repeating:
    "So, good writers are just BORN? And the rest of us should stay in our caves painting bison on the walls?"
    
    What is the solution, Tess Schlesinger ?

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    <"Tough. Every single best selling writer I have spoken to at San Diego Comic Con International has told me that it's a talent.
    It is.">
      I think I get it now … 

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       No, you don't.
       
       You're making this personal, instead of looking at the big picture - that writers need to be paid, and that it wasn't always like this.
       
       Writers need to start saying that they won't write unless they are paid. This is called economic activism, and it is what I do on Google Plus. Not only for writers, but for everybody. Wait staff have started speaking up. Walmart staff speak up. Cities are now beginning to say that people have to be paid a living wage - $15 per hour.
       
       Why, as a writer, would you want to write gratis?
       
       I can understand if you said "Well, no one wants to pay me, but I want to be paid." But that's not what you are saying. You are actually insisting on not being paid because you enjoy it.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I can't go on … !     

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             TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             Okay, I'll add you.

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                Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                cool!

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                   TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                   Can't find you. There are about a dozen people with your name. Can you add me. I'll wait for you and add you right back.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    <" I have books published. I have had thousands of articles published in print and on the web. I have worked as an editor and ghostwriter for publishing houses. Google me.">
    
    My you are busy!

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    word55posted 9 years ago

    For the fun of it and what we can come up with. It really has nothing to do with money.

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       +1

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    Geekgurlposted 9 years ago

    I look at writing as a way to help people in addition to socializing.  I have a fulltime job and a part-time position, so I really don't do it for the money.  I haven't really been active on Hubpages since squidoo transferred everything over, but I plan to be more involved.  These are the communities I enjoy being apart of since there is so many diverse topics and interesting perceptions.

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21. 72

    LeanManposted 9 years ago

    House Painters vs Fine Artists
    
    I write for MONEY - this is my full time job that I do to support my family - 2 kids in college, 1 in school, wife that wants new shoes and handbags, a niece whose no good father is too busy to support and the mother has vanished etc... So I have to agree you should not write for free...
    
    I create my websites to earn - if they did not earn then I would not create them.. I put pages on here to earn. Even if they only earn a few cents if they are doing it month after month it all adds up.
    
    I wrote on here to learn initially - I wanted to earn and learn the ropes, I never expected to earn a lot and have been quite happy with what I have managed to achieve here with a regular payout. But this is the smallest of my eggs and if it stopped paying - well I would probably move the content where it would still earn.
    The best of my personal websites now earns in 4 figures, the worst also in 4 figures but you have to include the cents on those.. They are there to earn, but I earn by offering my readers what they want to see not just turning out crap.
    
    I also do freelance writing, I don't look at $ per word, I look at the job and think how much can I earn per hour. A high $/word could mean many hours of research and revision of the work to get it so perfect that it squeaks as you slide it onto the page. While a lower $/word can mean that you can race it out without too much effort and still earn. I manage to earn $15+ per hour as a minimum with my crap writing. (I was not born with the talent, I don't have a talent for writing, I am just persistent at what I do..)
    
    BUT..
    
    I get pissed off when I go onto places like odesk/upwork and see people asking for 500 word articles in perfect English for $1. and there will be dozens of applicants for the work as they need the money and are desperate to do anything to earn a few bucks. Some of the locals where I live now here in the Philippines earn only $5 a day for a full days hard labor. So writing 5 articles for $5 seems like a good deal to the better educated who cannot find better work. Then the same work is offered out for editing at 50c an article!!
    Makes it very hard for people that want to earn a decent living from what they do!
    
    So yes I agree - you should not write for free, or for peanuts - unless you want to write lots of pages and give them to me so that I can earn from your hard work..
    
    My earning rely on me getting paid, if everyone else is writing for free then I will not get paid..
    
    Thankfully however there are few people that write for free in the areas that I write - I don't do fiction, I don't write recipes or opinion pieces - the closest that I have to that are my articles about working in Saudi Arabia.
    
    I guess when it comes to writing you could look at me as a "House painter", I aint gonna come paint your house for free I have to earn a living - maybe "you" think you are a "fine artist" - but then maybe you will not earn anything until after you are dead...
    
    Anyway guys - have to go earn some money - that is all the free writing that you are getting today........

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       Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Well said.

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       kaiyan717posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I work on Odesk and I can say there are those that work for peanuts. I don't even try to compete. I make 30-40 dollars an hour for fiction writing and yes, there will always be those clients that will pay top rates. Fact is, I have more work than I can handle. I raise my children on my writing, so I agree that I need to be paid. But others may not need that and it does not change/hurt my chances of making a living. Like you, I have found a way to make it work. That is what it comes down to, making it work for you. Now Hubpages was just an experiment and no the 50-100 a month doesn't pay the bills, but it is steady, passive and once and a while, an article goes viral and you bring in over 6k in a month. That makes it a legitimate source in my eyes.

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          Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks for the Great Input!

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       AshlyChristenposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       i would like to get paid to write, i just think i do not know where to look...any suggestions?

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    sriramapriyaposted 9 years ago

    This is priya,  I have a blog, through that i can earn little money, i joined hub pages, four years back, Hub pages is a source to show the world what are we, and also a source to earn money, still now no earning on hub pages, sometimes i get one click, sometimes i did not get any clicks,  but still am Happy to write in Hub pages, with one hope i can also earn money through Hub pages and i too want become popular write through only hub pages. Due to Cancer i left Hub pages and my blog, this days.    again i stated working on hub pages and on my blog to earn money only one source of my life to earn money.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Thank you for your honesty. I'm sorry to hear about your cancer and hope you have made a good recovery. Many people do.
       
       I notice from the way that you word your sentences that you are probably not a native English speaker. That makes a difference to the reader because just as good writers write in a certain rhythm, so readers read in a certain rhythm. If that rhythm isn't there, then readers are inclined not to read any further.
       
       Along with many others, I have no idea why some hubs take off and others don't. There are, however, some things that will gather you more traffic.
       
       1. Strong keyworded title that people are searching for.
       2. The first picture must be eye catching.
       3. 1200 words written in a way that uses words associated with the main topic.
       4. Initial interest in the topic. If google sees that your hub is read initially by a few people and shared, then it's more likely to pay attention to it.
       5. That people stay on  your hub for a few minutes. You can do that by incorporating interesting videos that use the same keywords that are used for your topic.
       
       Earning money on hubpages is more than possible. The first time I joined I took three months to reach $50 and after that pretty much every month. This time (I came via Squidoo), I did nothing for about 6 months, and then started again in January this year. I reached payout in June. Now the process is a lot quicker with an expected payout every second month.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          "Here's a simple equation that spells it out:
          
          A content-rich page = Highly-targeted ads
          Highly-targeted ads + Interested users = Healthy clickthrough & conversion rates
          Healthy clickthrough & conversion rates = Success!"
          https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/81554
          
          
          could you explain this, Tess?
          
          what is "content rich?"
          what is "content?"
          Some of my hubs which I thought were content-rich are not attracting in the least.

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          sriramapriyaposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you Tess, thank you for your suggestion. I will work with full dedication, without missing above comments.

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    srivposted 9 years ago

    Wonderful hub!!

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24. 44

    writeyourwrongsposted 9 years ago

    Some people enjoy entertaining others. It's like when you think of a really funny joke, you can't just tell it yourself and laugh (well, you can, but you probably wouldn't) - you only really enjoy that joke once you've seen somebody else's reaction to it.
    
    Having said that, if you don't pay me, I'm very unlikely to write anything for you ;-)

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    Susana Sposted 9 years ago

    There are plenty of high paying writing opportunities if you have the skills. That fact isn't diminished by hobby writers.

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    Aliswellposted 9 years ago

    As if to have the "Gaul" to interject my Two Cents Worth...I must admit, I find it unimaginable that the individuals who are making the "Livings"; "Big Bucks"; "Accolades of the Ages", Etc.etc...have 1.) The desire to post either Original Hubs, or 2.) Response after Response after Response on this site????
    
    I am just one insignificant soul, and a Very infinitely small contributor to the Gazillions of Writers or simple purveyors of the written Word. But my 'soul'/sole reason is for emptying those floating clouds of jumbled letters into...at this time of my life...cyberspace!! Hopefully the readers of such nonsense can stroke or cane me back to reality???
    
    I do, however. find it most enjoyable to learn from those few 'Next to Godly' ones who offer their time and expertise on how.. We Non-Gifted by the Grace of the "Writer's God" types...can hopefully develop a craft and some 'Coin of the Realm' for beer money!!!

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       +1
       
       (By beer you mean "can of drink!")
       
       
       The truth is, CONTENT is a mystery.
       It is something magical and elusive until caught by those fish who think its really something … for whatever unfathomable reason!
       
       if you ask me …  which ...

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Do you need an edit? Sarcasm doesn't do it for me. You're semi-literate.

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          Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          If I were to request someone to edit My Feeble and 'Semi-Literate' Attempts at purging my thoughts through the written word...Trust me your Services would be Very ---------

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             writeyourwrongsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             I don't understand.

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                Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                I like to think of the 'Very....'
                As A 'Dangling Modifier', in as much as I leave my response for the Reader to Fill in the Blanks?

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                   writeyourwrongsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                   It's more your use of capitalisation I find interesting. I'd love to hear about how you choose to place them?

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                      Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                      Sorry to disappoint, But my formatting technique has nothing to do with the 'Literary Community' accepted or required, Capitalization criteria!
                      I simply have a gut feeling that requires emphasis on particular words or phrases.

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                         writeyourwrongsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                         OK that makes sense. I know people who post in other forums using similar techniques.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    Words are not like paper clips. Some words are needed by some people and some words are not needed by anyone.
    Paper clips are totally needed all the time by everybody.

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       WriteAngledposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I haven't seen a paper clip for years....

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       AshlyChristenposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       very nice

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    maybe unprofessional writers who are just doing it for the fun and not the money are immature.
      like kids.
    oh well.
    sorry about that.

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       writeyourwrongsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Listening to you and the OP argue is something I would pay good money for.
       
       Actually I wouldn't - if I paid, you'd stop and then the argument would become a monologue, which would entertain me less.
       Please continue.

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Hey, thanks!  I would get all nervous if you did pay.

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    Quillianposted 9 years ago

    Well, I think everyone here proves a few good points. People are social animals, language is a living dynamic and...wait for it...when you put those things together then the spectrum for reasoning and rationale comes full circle.
    
    Should we be paid if we can put a couple of fine symbols together to form a concept? Shakespeare added many words to our dictionary and I don't think he was grammatically correct to all of his teachers. We write for all the reasons mentioned and more; to connect to each other, to educate, to entertain, to blow off steam, and to make money or for fame (although I think the fame thing is delusional).
    
    Sure I would love to get money for writing, but unless the writing is successful then the advertisers aren't going to knock down my door. So I have to get my name and a sample of my product out there.
    
    The more established my name and work become, the higher the paycheck gets. If you're only successful with controversial subject matter, guess what...those day jobs better not see your material connected to your name or you won't have one of those either.

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       Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Well Said!

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          Quillianposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Thanks, this is an important topic and I love it when people can come together and disagree respectfully.

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             Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             I agree with "Respectfully' wholeheartedly!!!
             I almost went to the 'Darkside' when I was dubbed a 'Semi- Literate' but thankfully, pulled back from the 'Gates of Payback', and instead used my 'Dangling Modifier' to ease the pain!

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                Quillianposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                I understand your pain, it really bothered me when I saw the word "addition" replacing "addiction" so I guess when I think everyone needs an edit I should stick to my guns!

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    AshlyChristenposted 9 years ago

    indeed!
    Writing is so much a part of me it is hard to ignore. I put up the pen for a long time but it calls to me every day! It really is an addiction. It can be healthy and it can be unhealthy. I think I realized I was not pulling my muse from a healthy part of me so I took a few years to consider this. Now I am feeling a very strong pull again. I am somewhat lost, I am not sure what I am being pulled to but I can feel it nonetheless
    I have posted a couple articles, a piece of poetry and a handful of recipes but I am not sure what my niche will be.
    mulling it over day after day
    I want to make a profit
    I always have wanted to make something of it, but here I am posting hubs like the hundreds of writers on here hoping that theirs catches the public eye.....and still I wonder....why.?

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    TessSchlesingerposted 9 years ago

    I just read this this morning, and thought it relevant... It's a letter from an employer wanting to know why her workers just do the jobs they are employed to do and not anymore... Same principle.
    
    
    http://www.daedtech.com/the-beggar-ceo- … er-culture
    
    "Dear Victoria,
    
    I completely empathize.  Every couple of weeks a cleaning service comes to clean my house.  They put in their standard hour on the dot, and that’s it.  No matter how much I walk around sighing when they’re about to leave, or passive-aggressively musing out loud about the virtues of wanting to clean for the love of cleanliness, they still duck out at exactly the one hour mark.  What do I have to do to find someone who is as passionate about cleaning my house as I am about having it be clean?  Doing a good job cleaning is its own reward, even if it means an unpaid half hour or two every other week.*

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       tsmogposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Yes, that article lends to support of the OP. At task perhaps is a perspective regarding how one disposes of that free time related to writing and publishing. Let me first share on a different note than earlier. I got what the point of the OP easily.
       
       I am empathetic with this adventure as a venture from personal experience. I have 40+ years of experience in a singular field from laborer to corporate leadership.  At issue seems to be with fair pay - remuneration, contrast and compare with value and worth . . . true?
       
       Once in that career I was a Master Technician. Yes, I was "A mechanic who works 10 hours a day and comes home exhausted". A common occurrence once that was known was asking me how to fix an ailing car.
       
       To achieve that status required years of formal education, informal, and importantly experience. Even though the symptoms described were very familiar while know the most likely cause and easy fix, do I 'share' that. Another consideration would be why do I charge a minimum of one hour for a 15 minute job task? What of my value contrast the advice or job task worth? Why . . . we even may say that is at task when writing a Hub, internet article - blog, or one submitted to a publication house - print or online.
       
       Next, enters structure. A product manufactured – any article, seeks a marketplace within a greater market . . . (That itself can be Hub)

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       Sherry Hewinsposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       That's crazy, if she wants her house cleaner, she needs to pay for more cleaning!

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          Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          " No matter how much I walk around sighing when they’re about to leave, or passive-aggressively musing out loud about the virtues of wanting to clean for the love of cleanliness, they still duck out at exactly the one hour mark.  What do I have to do to find someone who is as passionate about cleaning my house as I am about having it be clean?  Doing a good job cleaning is its own reward, even if it means an unpaid half hour or two every other week."
          
          Or reap the "rewards" of a job well done, by doing it herself. 
          
          Personally, if I came to clean her house and she lounged around, sighing about how she likes clean houses and wishing that hers could be cleaner, I might have to punch her in her pie hole. Passive-aggressively of course.

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             NateB11posted 9 years agoin reply to this

             Lol

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    theraggededgeposted 9 years ago

    Reading some of these comments is like dwelling in a parallel universe for a time
    
    There are people making sense, people making no sense at all, some go off on a tangent, there are writers, there are non-writers (it's easy to tell), there are hopefuls and those who have been there and done that. It is all very joyful and entertaining on a dull, wet Welsh Tuesday morning.
    
    Happy December!

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    makingamarkposted 9 years ago

    No point in responding - just press the button and report it to HQ

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       Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Done

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    PrePreyanshuposted 9 years ago

    I don't think that getting rewarded is always the prime motive of every actin a human commits ya it's obvious I would like fame.... So my question is that how can i get more followers plz answer as soon as possible....

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Just build it and build it well on the ground of your own personally held, solid and true beliefs. They will come.
       And edit like the Charles Dickens.

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    Aelbarshaposted 9 years ago

    Being paid for writing, is a reward. But certainly, feedback, especially if positive, is a BIG reward!

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    I would rather have only one follower who supports and understands my work, rather than be paid by mindless multitudes.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    oops … see what happens when you mention the B word?
    good to know.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    If hobby writers are welcome on HubPages, I really don't understand the existence of this thread.
    Should I delete all my unpaid for works and GO?
    
    ~ or should I not feel defensive, and STAY?
    I hate feeling defensive.
    
    P.S. I really don't see me signing up for Adsense.
    
    Maybe that should be the requirement for joining HubPages:
    " Just sign up for Adsense and you're IN!" … otherwise its: "Go start your own website, Good Luck with that …"
    ?
    Maybe I am not where I should be.

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       qeylerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       If you can get an adsense account here, you can use it on your own blog. So you can get paid.  You would only put one ad on a page or so...

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          Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          +1

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       NateB11posted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I think you should stay. Your writings add value to the site.

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       My original comments were NOT about hubpages. They are about the fact that throughout the first world, increasing numbers of publishers are climbing on the bandwagon of getting writers to write gratis. The attached articles to my opening post established that.
       
       Might I ask why everyone thinks this is about writing on hubpages?

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          Susana Sposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I think it's because you used "you" a lot in your opening post plus the post title so people related the questions to themselves as hubbers.
          
          But to answer your question of why people write for sites like huff post or the Atlantic for no direct monetary gain. They can get other valuable rewards which may lead to income in the future such as a very high value link and lots of new visitors to their site and/or social media profiles.

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          makingamarkposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          Tess
          
          1) because you have a much wider perspective on the writing world derived from your experience - so you knew what you were talking about - and a number of other people and I did too
          
          2) because the thread stayed on topic for a long time before being derailed
          
          3) because when threads get long (and/or get derailed by attention seekers) people don't bother to read all the posts or follow the arguments and just respond with whatever is uppermost in their minds - irrespective of whether or not this is relevant to the topic of the thread
          
          4) ...and finally... I think very possibly because others have only ever written here and have little experience of the world outside HubPages - hence if you're talking about writing you must be talking about HubPages!

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    Thanks, Nate. Your article, "SEO, Art, Money or Passion: Why Do You Write Online?" answered a lot of questions for me.
    
    Paul Edmondson posted this elsewhere awhile back:
    I hope this clears things up:
    
    "HubPages is a place to read and write about topics you're passionate about.
    
    Our mission is to be the best place to discover and create original, In-depth, media rich, useful pages.
    
    HubPages is NOT a place to publish for a link or to solely promote something.
    
    There is a place for people on HubPages that want to earn residual income by sharing their knowledge. However, to have your product reviews or information earn, it requires a high level of expertise and deep details.  We know it's not easy, and the people we see be successful over the long term are experts in what they write about and are more focused on the content than the monetization."
    http://hubpages.com/forum/post/2756019

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    P.S. I have great respect for those who are good at the money aspect of writing here and anywhere. After all, what's wrong with a little $$$?

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       That makes two of us. I truly think, though, that there are also extraneous factors, though, as earning money as a writer was not so difficult 30 years ago.

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    Murtaza Abbasiposted 9 years ago

    Can you teach this to Stack Exchangers because they write more than a Hubber "in my opinion".
    Somebody asked this question from them and what they answered, check it.

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    Barbsbitsnpiecesposted 9 years ago

    So, Tess, are you speaking about people writing gratis generally for websites sponsored by the likes of Atlantic, etc., as mentioned in your initial comments? But do your thoughts include writing gratis for websites like Hubpages, Bubblews, etc., which pay little, or nothing?
    
    There is no way Internet writing ever will be corralled (or unionized) by writers who seek payment. Gratis writers are all over the Internet because it's there, available. Some sites that paid rather well, Helium, AssociatedContent, Suite101, all closed, or reformatted to avoid regular payment to writers not because they wanted gratis work done, but because they couldn't continue to profit while paying hundreds of thousands, even millions, of writers worldwide.
    
    I'm a freelance writer and retired journalist. I earned when sites were available for writing profits up front. Now, one must play the market and have multiple opportunities going on the Internet to earn. And I can understand your concern about gratis work making it more difficult for "job" writers. However, the Internet is a worldwide forum and it isn't right for anyone to suggest certain writers should do journals, or get into nursing, instead of being a gratis writer. Those are personal choices.
    
    As long as the Internet provides a gratis "Publish" button, all kinds of writers will participate with all kinds of aspirations.

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       Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Love your response, it gives those of us who are "Lost in Woods of Literary Madness"...more to think about!!!

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          qeylerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

          I would think that a writer who is not paid on Site X would create various blogs, use adsense, and write and network.    Why write on Site X if not paid?

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             Barbsbitsnpiecesposted 9 years agoin reply to this

             I have a number of blogs I write for the fun of community writing and meeting writers -- another great benefit of Internet writing anywhere -- to network on topics and opinions. For me, writing has always been passion and fun first -- My Writing Life Xposed. Sometimes it's been a paid job -- a bonus of the art. If a writer isn't enjoying the personal satisfaction of wordsmithing -- creating, editing, rewriting, etc. -- in what ever capacity, much of the joy of writing itself is being missed.
             
             Why write if one isn't being paid for it? Because writing isn't always about having a "job" of it; sometimes it's internetting, networking, community connection, people relationships... as already has been expressed here by a number of persons.

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                Aliswellposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                I like the People part myself. Have got several people on HP that I like to read and learn from!

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                   Barbsbitsnpiecesposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                   I do, too, Aliswell. Even if posting isn't as frequent on my part as I grow older with less energy to spare, people who love to write is what first attracted me to Internet writing. I actually was astounded to learn that so many people worldwide consider writing a passion that they find outlets for wherever they can, regardless of monetary benefits, and who find writing connections with other people a satisfying reward, as well.

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                Jodahposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                I agree Barb.

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                   TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                   You said, "If a writer isn't enjoying the personal satisfaction of wordsmithing -- creating, editing, rewriting, etc. -- in what ever capacity, much of the joy of writing itself is being missed."
                   
                   Why must writing be enjoyed? What sets writing apart from nursing, cleaning, sewing, bricklaying, sales, typing, soldiering, or anything else? There is nothing sacred about writing. It's a means of communication plus a means of earning a living. That's it.
                   
                   Sure some people enjoy writing, but I do recall in the days I worked at a newspaper, that some of the journalists just saw it as a job and counting the number of words. My late father saw it strictly as a means of earning a living while earning a living full time as a journalist and, afterwards, as a way of earning pocket money.
                   
                   I have no issue with people enjoying writing (I do), but I my purpose in writing to enjoy it. If joy was the goal, I would rather go dancing or swimming. I enjoy them much more. However, I don't get paid for those things. I write for money. That's it.
                   
                   I get the impression that some think that one has to write because one enjoys it, and to make it simply a means of earning a living without enjoying it is a sacrilege.  I also still come back to  my point that because so many writers are willing to write for profit making venues gratis, it is harming the greater writing community.

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                      wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                      Not a sacrilege, but just sad.  If one doesn't enjoy the activity that earns them a living they are in the wrong business.

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                         TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                         Well, I don't enjoy earning a living at all. I hate it. Does this mean I should not earn a living because I don't like it? Does it mean that people who work at WalMart and can't find anything else must stop working because they don't enjoy their work?

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                            Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                            +1 LOL

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                            wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                            No, it means they (and you) need to change what you are doing to earn that living.  That you will spend a third of your life in activity you hate just to have food and a roof is truly sad, although a great many people do just that.

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                               TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                               That might have been possible during the hayday of 50s through 80s, but those days have come and gone. They will never be here again.
                               
                               Having been born into a third world country, at one point, strangely enough with a currency more powerful than the American dollar (in the 50s and 60s), none of us were ever taught that we had to love our work. South Africa was (and probably still is) very much a Calvinist society. One doesn't work for enjoyment. One works because one has to survive, and one does whatever one has to do in order to survive. That is the view and perspective of probably 90% of the world's population. That is the reality.
                               
                               People go to university and come out with degrees that they never use. Eighty five percent of graduates never use the degree that they studied towards. They are retrained by the company that hired them into something else. Ninety five percent of the world's population hate their jobs. You can google these statistics.
                               
                               It is not feasible that everybody can have a job they love. That's because nobody wants to do the dirty work, most people enjoy the same sort of thing, and everybody can't do the same thing. It's simple math.
                               
                               While one or two or five or six percent might be lucky enough to be able to work in jobs they love, it's just not possible for the vast majority of people.
                               
                               70% of Americans hate their jobs.
                               http://www.ryot.org/gallup-poll-70-amer … obs/376177
                               
                               QUOTE:
                               The inspirational literature is full of stories of people who left high-paying corporate jobs to teach deep-sea fishing in the Caribbean or to run a bed & breakfast in the Appalachians. People who gave up what, on paper, seemed to be perfect lives, to go do something that they had never dared think of before, and now are poorer but happier, with dewy skin, shining hair, and a wonderful partner who is a perfect match. Pardon the sarcasm.
                               
                               QUOTE: Another problem is the assumption that anyone can just drop everything they've built to follow an interest that may or may not be able to support them. That a single mother, for example, could somehow rationalize quitting a job that pays for her kids' food, schooling and healthcare, and go make bumper stickers for the local activist co-op. Yes, it would be wonderful to show her kids an adult living her dreams, but maybe not so wonderful to be living out of her car with no health insurance. And what about someone with chronic health problems or with aging or ill family members for whom he is the caregiver? Unless your dream consists of working at a job that provides a healthcare and a living wage, most people with these longings can only really afford to indulge them in a part-time way. That's just life, and personal responsibility is arguably more valuable than any vague “passion”.
                               
                               https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/te … r-dreams-0

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                                  Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                  And even if you are lucky enough to be employed in an industry you love, there are co-workers, bosses and office politics etc.. that can ruin it for everyone.
                                  
                                  If you still are not troubled by any of the above, there are corporate takeovers that result in massive restructuring, redundancy of workers, penny pinching and eventual enslavement of the few remaining workers, who must now do the job of 3 people. They delight in working overtime for no overtime pay, while 4 levels of managers, each managing one person, scrutinize their production.

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                                  wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                  And certainly if you never make an effort to find work you like or enjoy, you never will.  You will always be stuck with a job you hate.
                                  
                                  You like swimming - have you looked for work cleaning giant aquariums?  Underwater welding?  Oceanography?  Training dolphins?  The entertainment business?  Or do you just write it all off as either "impossible" or still work and therefore something to be disliked?
                                  
                                  I think most people could find something they enjoy, or at least don't hate...but only if they are willing to put forth the effort and pay the price.  As most people are not, they will remain forever stuck, hating to get up in the morning because they have to go to work.

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                                     Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                     I had a psychology professor that related this tale to us, in order to make a point about work versus doing what you enjoy. In college he needed to make some extra money to support himself. He loved to play the saxophone, and was very good at it. He joined a band that played hours late into the evenings; it seemed ideal at first.
                                     
                                     But as time went on, it became a chore.  Having to do it for the money took away the pleasure of playing the sax.  Ultimately he began to hate the instrument, and as soon as he could quit this gig, he did so and quit playing the saxophone altogether for decades.

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                                        Marisa Wrightposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                        I've met people with similar experiences, including a hobby photographer who tried to make a living from photography and found it spoiled his enjoyment of taking photos.  I think it all depends how much freedom you have to pursue the activity the way YOU want.   Often if you make it a career, you have to compromise and do what your clients want (e.g. taking wedding photos to please the customer's requirements instead of what you'd find artistically pleasing). 
                                        
                                        Likewise if you make a career as a writer - often to make the most money, you need to write what's commercial rather than what you'd find fulfilling to write.

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                                           Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                           I think you hit the nail on the head.  Many people still enjoy making a living from their avocation, while once it becomes rigid - perhaps you have bosses or team members that place restrictions on yo -, it becomes a grind.

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                                        wildernessposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                        That's what I said - if any kind of work is defined as being hateful then you will never find anything you enjoy doing.  It is, to a large degree, a mindset as well as preference in what is "fun".
                                        
                                        And there is another facet as well, in plain old boredom.  I started a new career at the age of 45 and truly did enjoy it.  Some hard, nasty work, but mostly something I could enjoy doing.  But after 15 years of it, there was nothing new to learn or do; it had become repetitive to a large degree and I no longer enjoyed the work as I had.  Sometimes that's all it is; boredom and time to move to something new.

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                                           Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                           +1

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                                           Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                           1. Work for a living doing what you used to love, but now hate, because you can sew those darn Speedos with your eyes closed, (after all, its been more than ten years.)
                                           2. Keep that job because it is very hard to find another one with all the benefits that Speedo is providing, plus the fact you are grandfathered in. Also when you retire you will have even more benefits which you would lose if you quit. Oh well, you have to keep working at Speedo until you retire and are way too fat to fit into any of those suits ...
                                           3. Meanwhile you have the money you need for the roof over your head and most importantly, your computer which enables you to type your head off anywhere you want expressing all your magnificent thoughts and organizing them so others can understand them. It is fun and you don't care about the money.
                                           4. Others do not want to pay you for your actual organized words, but they start to value WHAT you write as much as you do.
                                           5. In time, you learn to organize your thoughts so well you are offered writing jobs. One fine day, National Enquirer rings you up and offers you more than your current boring job, and you take it. You become a journalist! Now you have online followers galore and earn so much money you are rolling in it.
                                           6. Accidentally, after a night of imbibing in adult beverages at a party, and being dumped by your girlfriend of twelve years the night before, you accidentally submit your online journal entry titled, "I Am Greater than Mohamed," pondering how anyone could possibly dump YOU? or some such thing.  You meant one thing but people have taken it the wrong way, as what happened with John Lennon.
                                           The next thing you know you are fired or worse.
                                           
                                           No, better stick to your safe and secure job.
                                           Writing is too way risky, anyway. :-D

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                                              TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                                              That was a good read.

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                               Barbsbitsnpiecesposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                               Tess, you've said you don't enjoy earning a living, but you do enjoy writing, which is how you earn your living. This is all getting a bit mixed up, wouldn't you say? Nobody has to enjoy anything they do to earn a living, but many people are proud and satisfied to be able to earn their own way -- a whole different subject.
                               
                               I'm sure many people enjoy writing because it's an art that gives benefits other than financial, is what I said. And most journalists are in that field because they do enjoy writing, if even your father and you have not been among them. This is all really a six of one and half a dozen of the other type debate.
                               
                               So is gratis writing, simple because it's not something that can be corralled. It involves personal choices.

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                Phyllis Doyleposted 9 years agoin reply to this

                Very well-said, Barb. Spot on.

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    Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years ago

    we are wired for freedom.
    when it becomes something we no longer freely choose to do it is unpleasant.
    A miserable chore. Forcing is taboo.  But if you are forced to be alive on this earth, you have to find inspiration to do what you are forced to do.
    There is no winning.
    

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    Bronwyn Joy Ellioposted 9 years ago

    To answer the OP, because one day, I might be discovered and end up getting paid. If you don't risk anything, you lose everything.

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       Solarasposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Some people use their HP articles as part of their online resume when looking for commercial work.

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    Mark Ewbieposted 9 years ago

    I have more or less stopped writing.
    
    Having more fun doing this...
    
    
    

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       Kathryn L Hillposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       w o w and love it!   (colors now!)
       so much a picture ( edit: internet drawing) can say !!!!

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       TessSchlesingerposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       Love it. I wish I could hire you to draw cartoons for me for google plus!

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       Quillianposted 9 years agoin reply to this

       I have felt JUST LIKE THAT! The funny thing is, who is making up those out-dated tests?
       
       Language is a living dynamic; as our technology changes and local communication becomes real-time global communication, language also changes and develops. The universal at that point is adaptability.

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