AMERICA IS NOT BROKEN
The foundation and basis of America still provides a sound and working system of government.
OBVIOUSLY.
Many seem to bypass this reality in viewing this country.Functioning and ideal are different things.
Happiness rankings:
Forbes listings: In order:
Noway, Denmark, Australia and New Zealand.
http://www.forbes.com/pictures/mef45ejmi/05-sweden/
Legatum rankings: Denmark, Norway, Switzerland, The Netherlands, Sweden, Canada, Finland, Austria, Iceland and Australia completed the top ten.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/trave … untry.html
Quality of life rankings:
Iceland, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Austria, Finland New Zealand, Germany, Canada.
http://nationranking.files.wordpress.co … 1-qli2.png
Wealth Per Capita.
#1 Norway.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY. … ;sort=desc
Disposable income:
#1 Norway.
Education:
New Zealand, Finland, Denmark, Australia, Cuba, Canada, Norway, Korea, The Netherlands
http://hdr.undp.org/en/reports/global/hdr2009/
etc. etc.
With all the massive advantages the US has any system that does not have it in the top three of all of these is a broken system."Broken" is in the eye of the beholder. If enough people see America in the light you see America then it will be broken.
The foundation of this country was as flawless as possible and designed by brilliant men who valued the human propensity for freedom/autonomy and self-guidance.
Unjust taxes will break us.Yes they loved freedom and autonomy so much that several of them owned slaves, the writer of the constitution had 187 slaves. That is a ridiculous argument.
Why do you always try to pitch these ludicrous statements against actual verifiable facts?We have a democratic republic. It is successful because the country is not too small and not too big.
It is just right. Most social democracies are found in small countries.Because "broken" is indeed in the eye of the beholder.
Nowhere in any of those fine links do I see anything concerning the size of home or land the home occupies per occupant. Nowhere is the average number of cars per capita. I see nothing about the acreage of national, open land per capita. No indication of how many RV's or other large toys per capita. Nothing on availability of large entertainment such as Disney or the Hollywood complex.
Instead there is reference to "political participation" and "socialist paradise" (Sweden). To "social support" and "Perceptions of corruption" in Denmark. To "quality of life (undefined, but surely socialistic)" and "education" in one set and to a set of tiny countries and localities the size of a US state with a higher GPD. Mostly states such as Singapore, Macao and Hong Kong with extreme differences of wealth far beyond that of the US.
So yes. Absolutely you can pick and choose the defined categories that will show any country can have superior quality. If your goal is to hunt a lion with a shield and spear, the obvious choice is Kenya as having the happiest people, although I wouldn't expect it to be high in any other category.
And when you do, the rest of the world is "broken"If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
But, if you do happen to break it…
better fix it.
We have broken many things and we do need to fix many things. But the basic principals are based on human nature. The core beliefs are are very solid. And we need to keep them in mind when 'fixing."
The biggest problem to be addressed is the lack of regulations on the government's interaction with big business/banks and the quest for access to oil.
Should the Fed be allowed to generate revenue through it's Own Business?
I am thinking thats what Obama Care is really all about: Government Money Tree, Inc.
Is there a legitimate way our Government could generate it own source of revenue, independent of Insurance Taxes, Big Business, Oil Interests/Resources, (outside of the country,) and War?
I mean a legitimate business of some type. Maybe it could involve health care. Make it 100% voluntary by providing worthwhile/quality service. There could be government operated hospitals with "in-house" affordable insurance. Maybe each state could have a couple of these hospitals, depending on the size of the state. As they become more and more successful natural expansion would take place over time. Give it a decade. Would probably work out nicely for all concerned.
No?I'm not happy with govt. running it's own business. What they do now is bad enough, but with unlimited funding no company can compete. Whereupon a monopoly is quickly created and prices skyrocket as liberals decide they need more money.
right. morals and ethics would have to be in place.
…and impossible utopian ideals would have to be thrown out the window. Instead, we need real representatives who hold concern, regard and sensitivity to the true needs of the people.
And we need representatives who respect the necessity of a democratic republic for the sake of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. We must keep democratic republic form of government for more than just a couple centuries; we must, for the sake of posterity.
What if it was
Life, Security and the Pursuit of Happiness?
LOL!!!
Somehow it makes your stomach turn, does it not!
Hey I think the ratings are very fun. My wife would be happy with more things and no debt, and she loves paved things and artificial grass. She is born and raised in Vietnam just at the end and after the war. I like dirt roads, no power lines no visible neighbors and hiking. I would rate Vietnam higher. Of course she wins and we have to live in the USA --- poor me.
Then your wife has a major problem. Mine, too, wanted the paved over land (think Disneyworld) rather than a hike in the woods, but after 37 years I have convinced her that camping is more fun that an amusement park. Or at least more spiritual.
Work on her, Eric - you can do it!
My version of spiritual. Forget about the make believe gods of man; just take a slow, solitary walk through the forest.
Seriously. Have you ever visited the Redwood Forest in northern California? It puts every cathedral, every church, every choir and preacher in the world to shame. The awe and wonder of those mist covered giants of the world is beyond anything man's imagination could ever come up with.evidence of spirit? or just face value? anyway I agree with you. thanks. How's spidey? Halloween eve winding down over here in CA.
LOL Spidey ran full speed and face first into a mailbox. Hit the ground like a ton of bricks and candy everywhere! A few tears, a little crying and he was off and running to the next house, missing the next mailbox only because Dad was watching and pulled him out of the way. For the rest of the evening, he had a Mom, Dad, Grandpa and 2 Grandma's watching to make sure he didn't repeat. Several more close calls, but no collisions. The Lady Bug, nurse and zombie in the group all did fine.
Spiritual - a emotional state, mostly consisting of awe and a feeling of smallness and/or insignificance. Not to be confused with an imagined reality where invisible physical things populate this or another realm we cannot detect.Aw… so cute. he'll be better next year. I'm happy to hear about old fashioned trick or treating… In my town, youngsters, parents, oldsters and dogs, congregate on main street and parade around in their costumes en mass. The kids get safe candy from the shop owners. So sad, cuz no one comes to the door any more! But I don't have the obligation of buying candy.
Yep. I must admit it was quite an experience the first time I walked into the hollowed out trunk of a fallen tree.
"I ain't never seen one natural thing that did not outshine all of what man has made"
"if indeed there is a Spirit within me, let me leave it alone so it will be as natural as it can be"Driving down highway 101 at the lead of a small convoy, I had to simply pull off to the shoulder, stop, and spend a few minutes wandering the woods. Several times in the 30 miles or so we drove.
In contemplating trees, I stopped being an atheist. But, then I never thought God was an old man with flowing white hair sitting around on a gold throne in the clouds of heaven. (And my family stopped attending church early on, so I was left to think for myself about the matter.)
"Trees" does not do justice to those forest giants - it does not even come close. If ever you get the chance to travel northern California, do take a ride through the Redwood Forest and if possible spend a night or two in a campground there. I guarantee you will find it worth your time.
I know wilderness, I have... but trees of all types are pretty cool...even little tiny trees. Some are downright sexy.
TWISI
(lol)
But isn't it entirely possible that somebody with access to none of these things may have a better quality of life than somebody with access to all of them?
Are we really discussing quality of life and happiness of citizens in whichever country?
No, we are discussing happiness as it relates to freedom vs security.
Do citizens in a social democracy feel freedom to a more or less extent, or security to a more or less extent? And which is better?Give me a good river boat and one months food and I will show you freedom and security.
to sustain his life… for a month.
- not really secure.
- very present oriented.
The successful man (person) is a little more future oriented.
Kinda boring after a month anyway.
Would the fish be chemical free if he were to fish? (depending on the river he was floating down, like say the Mississippi River) He would also have to give up eating those fish after a month, if so.
Josak, this was interesting, particularly when following the first connection. Speaking about what Norwegians say about their country, the article says:
"Denmark is no. 2 [ranked for happiest] for the third year. The tiny country ranks first in entrepreneurship and opportunity, based on high levels of social equality, high connectivity and the world's lowest start-up costs."
That goes against the grain of what so many are preaching in the U.S., that a country cannot have a high level of equality and a high level of entrepreneurship. But let's not quibble.
But to answer your question: the U.S. is still the land of opportunity, regardless of the dysfunctional government and dropping wages.I wonder what else you (as a country) get so wrong?
"The foundation of this country was as flawless as possible and designed by brilliant men who valued the human propensity for freedom/autonomy and self-guidance."
Well that is definitely not true. There were idealists, and many religious zealots left the shores of Europe to find a new place on the American continent; there were also criminals in large droves, who found the perfect land to exploit and abuse its native residents. There is nothing at all brilliant about that. From the onset the American ideal was corrupted from the inside, first of all a central bank that attempted to take control of everything, and when that didn't work, the Federal Reserve was set up (as a cover to do exactly the same thing).
The people who really run the US, and the UK, the people behind the scenes are not 'nice' people. They don't care about the average person. They like humans to be dumb and spend cash on rubbish, and be perfect little slaves.
And coming back to the main topic of this thread, who is going to pay for all the crumbling concrete laid out across the US in the 1950s?Electro -- Truth.
But a negative nasty truth.. A truth that paralyses and helps no one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTh-4Ss0 … WOEW8szs7Ayou're right Eric - love those guys Asleep at the Wheel.
I've often been the skeleton at the party, even as a kid :-)) I just like stuff to be known for what it is, really, part of my job.
Like the fact that the Western world is pretty much run by a criminal gang who are investing a lot of money in things that'll bear fruit if there's climate change chaos and/or social collapse. In fact, so much money that one wonders what they know...http://www.tni.org/article/cashing-cata … profiteers
that makes for interesting, if somewhat dense, reading.
In a nutshell, militarization of police (which we're already seeing), e.g. http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2 … -vehicles/
as well as more obvious things like this: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-03-0 … ofits.html
what is weird is the Doomsday seedbank they've opened in Svalbard, Norway, with investors such as Rockefeller, Monsanto, Syngenta, Microsoft etc http://www.globalresearch.ca/doomsday-s … ic-2/23503
Perhaps I should write a hub on this instead...Yes, a hub about how certain individuals want to destroy the earth.
Really?
Thank you for your submission. Can we fight those who want to destroy the earth?
Especially when it seems so far-fetched?
I have heard there is no proof the GMO foods are dangerous. I have no idea.
The corn I have been guiltily buying is delicious. I keep eating corn chips and tortillas even tho I know I shouldn't.
Kathryn, the wealthy, world-wide, have trust funds in low or no tax zones, like the inner city of London (as opposed to Greater London). They are currently buying up the world's housing and land. And they see themselves as a worldwide class that is non-aligned with any country (best I can tell from what I read).
If only more would see that. Instead people are so enslaved that they fall down and worship at their feet and sacrifice their lives for them.
The recipe written down on a piece of paper is not necessarily the one followed by the chefs.
What you state is a very profound observation. I don't know what your basis is or how you reached your conclusion. Politically the country runs very poorly with lesser and lesser approval ratings of congress. I would say contrary to your statement that we have strayed very far from what the founding fathers envisioned for our self governing model. With the early republics idea of unpaid service replaced with full time employed politicians in charge, it seems that Jefferson's vision of service has been replaced by self service of the modern politician.
The institution of the Federal Reserve was the farthest thing from Jefferson's America. He stated: "I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. Already they have raised up a moneyed aristocracy that has set the government at defiance. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people to whom it properly belongs." Despite his objections Hamilton worked tirelessly and set up a National Bank and banking system which Woodrow Wilson overturned with the uncontrollable Federal Reserve system we now have. This is a privately run Central Bank that gets paid by us to direct our currency and debt. HMMMMM!
The military system instituted by our founding fathers was a basic militia based system with conscription brought into effect when and if the country went to war. Today we have an empirical frame of mind that establishes military outposts, patrols the worlds airspace and oceans on an almost police like mission to order around other countries against their own wishes of self government and culture. The modern military is a paid occupation whether reserve of active status with benefits that follow the retired member through retirement till death. The military industrial complex fulfills contracts that in recent events have taken airplanes straight from the factory to mothball storage in the desert!
I am sorry but I am not at all comforted by your statement. I say that because so much has gone wrong with the way we do our politics, business and security and our arrogance sets us up to take a really big fall. Just wait until we cannot pay our bills because the rest of the world calls us on our debt. America is in decline and a giant Ponzi Scheme is being perpetrated by our government because of the blinders they purposely wear in their zeal to "serve" us.I agree America is only broken if we think it is! We need to believe in America again, speak blessings to our people and our leaders in government.
- alexsaez1983posted 11 years ago
0I think "broken" is a strong word. Sure, the government took a bit of an unscheduled coffee break right during the dinner rush, but it's not on the edge of social collapse like many other nations out there.
I'd have to agree with you Kathy that corporations need to have limits set on how much they can associate with politics. Here in Canada, there's a donation limit. No single organization can donate more than $5,000 to any particular party. One company tried to circumvent that by breaking the donations up under their employees' names and they got slapped big time. I'd say limits like these are fair and help keep corporate interests and politics a little bit more separate. - the citizens of this country were given, and currently still have, the opportunity to strive for Life, Liberty, the pursuit of Happiness and "true safety."
What if the declaration of Independence was "fixed" to read:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are *comfort, security and the pursuit of government assistance.* That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the *consent of elected representatives,* that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is * not * the right of the people to alter or abolish it, institute new government, laying its foundation on *opposing* principals or organizing its powers in some *other* form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their t r u e safety and happiness.
Not to beat a dead horse or anything. LOL- mbuggiehposted 11 years ago0
I will agree: The Redwood Forest is simply beyond words...as is the Grand Canyon.
- yes, the attentions of the representatives of the people are not focused on The Country's founding principles. They need to read and reflect upon them. We all do. Teachers need to expose their students to the founding principals, especially in college where sleepy souls are beginning to wake up.
the usa did not invent slavery.we ended it in this country. many of the nations that did invent slavery, need to follow our lead. we are far from broken
The criminals in business, government and the military running this pop stand have broke the country beyond repair ... and most of the peasants have no idea what really happened 9/11 ...
http://youtu.be/XDfxB9nUfDcCertainly the conspiracy theorists don't. That doesn't leave much, does it?
I've never really considered myself a 'conspiracy theorist', but I have to admit, there's a certain logic to the idea, that there's more of a conspiracy going on in actually believing the stories promoted by the various news channels, than the other way round. It's kind of a shame that the term 'conspiracy theorist' has become a dirty word, as it excludes the possibility of turning over every stone. In the absense of proof it's possible to fill the gaps with anything.
I read once that every US dollar is marked with a single eye within a pyramid, with dimensions exact to the calculations of Phi, with the words New Secular Order or something to that effect, part of a 'grand plan' being set in place since ages ago. Order out of chaos etc...Ridiculous, right?
Except it is there on the dollar bill. It would be a conspiracy to believe that it isn't! ;-))The conspiracy theorists have worked hard to give the term a very bad connotation and have succeeded admirably. It's what happens when one incessantly makes up ridiculous claims, ignores or changes factual evidence, plays games with the truth, etc.
An good example, introduced here on HP multiple times, is that tons and tons of aluminum and rust were trucked into the twin towers, the covering sheetrock and walls ripped off support columns all over the occupied building and those columns covered with said materials and remote control detonators. The columns then re-covered and painted, ready for occupancy the next day, and held until the CIA flew the planes into the tower, whereupon the remote control detonators (batteries still working after months of waiting for a signal) were torched off.
Of course the theorists do not try to find the trucks or truck drivers delivering the explosives, the drivers removing construction debris, the dump site it went to, the supplier of the explosives, the financial paper trail for explosives and detonators, the workmen doing the months of work, the hundreds of secretaries that never noticed the wall behind their desk had been removed, replaced and repainted last night, the remains of thousands of detonator batteries or miles of new wiring to provide power off the building system, etc.
When you pull that kind of stunt (claim a conspiracy without showing cause for the claim) it kind of ruins the good name of the theorists.I think it far more likely that the means of demolishing the towers was legitimately built in at the time of construction either to aid demolition at the end of life of the building or in case of serious damage resulting in uncontrolled collapse.
I rather doubt that you will find any engineer (or city planning council) that would approve placement of thermite bombs all throughout a building, along with remote detonators. It just doesn't seem smart, but that's what is now being claimed happened; that tons upon tons of thermite reactions were set off when the planes crashed. Reactions on every main support column or beam throughout the entire building.
If that was the case then there was an awful lot of advanced planning and preparation. It takes about six months to prepare a building in that manner.
At least. Add in that it was a building in use, that could thus only be worked on outside of business hours, and any work had to "disappear" by morning and even a year probably wasn't enough. Which is kind of the point; the conspiracy theorists just of gloss over that part of it, pretending that it was all done in a night or two.
Which kind of adds to the conclusion that if the building was deliberately demolished then it must have been prepared thus at the building stage.
Correct. And that goes back to something I absolutely refuse to believe. That either the govt. planned this decades ago OR that it was mined then just as a precaution.
You do not mine populated buildings in order to make it easier to destroy. You build it to last forever.Correction, we used to build to last forever.
- Sometimes we still do, even now. In my job, building schools was a big part of our business, and even little elementary schools were supposed to last 100 years. In a world of rapidly changing technology and the power needed for that tech, but they were designed to last 100 years.
But even the core (supporting structure) and shell of stores was, too. Not the interior, but the shell is always designed to last. Interiors, never - the local mall requires every story to completely remodel at least once every 10 years. Gut the shell and start over.I left Manchester in 1985, they were in the process of erecting a substantial building.
When I returned to Manchester in 2003 they were demolishing that building to erect a larger building.LOL Happens here, too. The only buildings over 50 years old are a handful of historical sites. Why anyone would ever think a building could be useful for 100 years is beyond me.
Wasn't a council building by any chance was it John?
Another great example is the nonsense put out because the dollar bill has a copy of the US Seal on it. Nonsense that it fits one of the many meanings of phi, that the words are from ancient times and a secret group of politicians, or that the Latin phrase "Novus ordo seclorum" in that seal has some dark meaning from millenia past.
In his June 1783 farewell letter to the Army, General George Washington wrote: "The foundation of our Empire was not laid in the gloomy age of Ignorance and Superstition, but at an Epoch when the rights of mankind were better understood and more clearly defined, than at any former period.
The dark conspiracy promoted by many about this seal seems to indicate that the theorists disagree. That the foundation was laid in the gloomy age of ignorance and superstition and that we still live in that age. (Believing such nonsense, they may well be right!)
1. Are there forces at work to break this country?
2. How can we recognize them?
3. How can we resist them?
4. Will we?There are forces at work which don't care if they break any country or not.
You refuse to recognise them.
You have no real desire to resist them.
No, you'll continue to support and defend them.John the communists were defeated years ago!
It was a satirical statement John, don't socialists understand it?
No, actually, you just reinforced my point.
A period in American history where Joseph McCarthy ruled the roost.
Sorry
I was referring to a period in US history where Joseph McCarthy ruled the roost and people were fearful of a communist take over.Ah! Being British (like you) I wasn't looking for obscure US references!
English John please, I live in Britain but I am English.
some say English, Some say British.
Who says which?Britain includes countries other than England. So an English person is both English and British, a Scottish man is British but not English.
oh! Thank you. But, some English, like John H. don't mind saying they are British?
I wish you could be more clear on this, John. I am all eyes.
It seems your politicians are trying to invoke the law of Jante upon the people of the US.
The ten principles
1.You're not to think you are anything special.
2.You're not to think you are as good as us.
3.You're not to think you are smarter than us.
4.You're not to convince yourself that you are better than us.
5.You're not to think you know more than us.
6.You're not to think you are more important than us.
7.You're not to think you are good at anything.
8.You're not to laugh at us.
9.You're not to think anyone cares about you.
10.You're not to think you can teach us anythingOh and there is an 11th rule that seems pretty apt
11.Maybe you don't think I know a few things about you?Oh it's not their (or our) politicians, they are just servants too.
It is your capitalist masters who keep you in your place but who you willingly submit to.- who are these capitalist masters? are they here in this country? Have they turned into socialist masters?
The only response to a comment like that is that they have you well and truly hooked.
gotcha. But who do you say are the capitalist masters?
Those who feel no allegiance to any country or people outside their own. Who care not a jot for the lives they destroy in their quest for capital.
Like George Soros? who destroyed the economy in Malaysia and is no longer welcome there? Or like American corporations, politicians, and/or individuals??
Kathryn just because a country has a social program doesn't make it socialist.
Taxation itself is a form of social program.
So, you would say the threat is not from without?
Conservative viewpoint:
The intent of many of our politicians is to continue the status quo of the Elitism of the Liberals and guarantee their winning of elections from here on out, whilst destroying the Republican party. Evidence: All the rules and regulations that were implemented to negatively impact the economy of the red states.
Opposing view points welcome:Albert Pike, an influential Mason back when the US was being formed:
“Fictions are necessary for the people, and the Truth becomes deadly to those who are not strong enough to contemplate it in all its brilliance. In fact, what can there be in common between the vile multitude and sublime wisdom? The Truth must be kept secret, and the masses need a teaching proportioned to their imperfect reason.”
I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but it is pretty obvious that a global elite are involved in groups and agendas we know little about. Albert Pike makes for interesting reading, if somewhat disconcerting.
Never heard of the law of Jante, will have to read up on it, but it appears to fit the template that Albert Pike was delineating.
The American dream.
You have to ask yourself Kathryn has anything the government done taken away your right of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."Americans seem to have great trust in our government because it has basically been doing us good. We are very comfortable in many ways. We work, we make money, we survive fairly easily, we progress, we grow and we thrive. It has been this way for the majority since the earliest of days. We have so much trust, we are just about complacent. It is a problem.
The resistance to any threat must start in thought.
What is the best thought / type of thinking/ philosophy to set on fire in a populace when the preservation of that which guarantees life, liberty, ability to pursue happiness, and security becomes imperative?
What does Silverspeeder say, I would love to know.Maybe that's the problem, too much thinking and not enough action.
First you have to work out what threatens you (as a nation that is) and do the government really want to take away your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness!
It is surely against the interests of the politicians to threaten the nation especially in a so called democracy where they can be voted out of office.
I suppose we could all go and live in Demark where life is so wonderful!- we rely on those we vote into office to take appropriate action. Our true power lies in voting. We can march, we can email, we can twitter, we can make our voices known... we have and we do. But, when the elected officials have become corrupted by greed and self interest…. then what?
I guess the best action is to become very familiar with anyone who is to be elected or has been elected. Keep a close eye.
Have a good political understanding of the best philosophy for government. (Hint: Social democracy is not the answer for a populace used to low taxes and unwilling to endure high taxes. Its so simple.)
I have to ask myself. But I don't want to know the answer. Can anyone who doesn't have their head in the sand, tell me?
Dr. Billy Kidd: Is it the 30 or so powerful wealthy, Bilderburgers, Rothchilds, CFR, etc.. who are trying to establish NWO? Is this a true threat? as opposed to conspiracy nonsense?
Q. How can we fight this powerful, wealthy, greedy and destructive force?
A. Prove the threat, expose the perpetuators and reveal their plans.
Q. How can we disclose the truth??
A. The president of the United States needs to be Honest and prove the threat, expose the perpetuators and reveal their plans to the US citizens.
Actions to take:
1. Elect Honest/Moral/Caring representatives who are above being involved with destructive forces.
2. Vote out those who are career politicians and/or utopianists.Q. What is the best philosophy for Good Government?
Hint:
Republicanism vs Utopianismand the goldilocks principal. Not too big, not too small, not too little, not too much…
just right.
When will the rich just be content?
Then maybe we can all get along
and stop breaking things..I don't think the rich can ever be content, because desire for things is self-propelling and it never satisfies, ever... It's like an illness that can only run its course. Buddha's main teaching was that desire leads to suffering...
It's ironic really, that the so-called Global Elite are just as much pawns and slaves to their desires, as the average Joe. Perhaps even more so as many are drunk on power and feel invincible and incredibly superior and their plans/desires are more easily carried out, only adding to their self-delusion.
If a meteor/climate change can wipe out 170 million years of Dinosaurs, no amount of preparations can help even the richest. Everything in nature runs its course.
- ahorsebackposted 11 years ago0
"I have seen the enemy and he is me " Awesome discussion Kathryn , I believe that America is so perfect a place and such a unproven experiment that it will always be extremely and critically judged ! From within -yes , but mostly from without . Our media makes it all so perfect in that our laundry , -dirty or clean - is forever hung out for the entire world to see ! To critique and to judge. And yet - there are still more patriots here ,than anywhere in the world . America is as yet ,a new beginning , and its also an ending ! The ending of slavery , of human deprivation , of hunger , of tyranny and tribal leadership , of child disease and hunger , what isn't possible with the American involvement in this world, and yet ......There is this need to constantly critique even the best of American intentions in this world. We will , as only a united people can do , "clean up our own house" soon ,-- as so many nations can never do ,but only from within her beautiful shores ! I will not judge openly , I will vote this nation to a better tomorrow . All we need to do now is make two words in the American English dictionary illegal forever and they are democrat and republican ! Oh and two more words Apathy and failure.
So nobody is starving in your world, there is no child disease and hunger!
Have you not noticed, as a republic, all of you are republicans and as you are a democratic republic, you are all democrats as well.We are a republic with a representative democracy / no monarch. Everyone has equal chance to survive as they choose. That is the important thing. Liberty fosters enthusiasm and joy of life. It is a human nature issue. The more liberty, the more percolating the economy. Why is that? Think about it! If you are forced to do something you do not want to do it for the sheer fact that it was not your choice! This understanding is is so simple, but due to the intellectual sophistication of adults, it is completely bypassed.
So nobody in your country is forced to do anything they don't want to!
Of course they are! There are millions in jail, and there are millions of children. Additional millions in mental institutions must follow orders, as must those in the military that have agreed to do so. We all have to follow orders of cops or other enforcement agencies to some degree.
Other than that, can't think of too many, but isn't that enough?You forgot the millions that are forced to do work that they hate to avoid poverty.
You have a very different concept of what the word "force" means. But then I knew that from the start.
Will you accept coercion as a definition of force?
No. Not until it includes massive physical harm/death directly applied by the forcing agency. Loss of freedom might also be included.
Coercion -
the action or practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats
You wouldn't consider the threat of poverty to be coercion then!All governments use coercion no matter what their political make up.
I believe even socialism would use coercion, the often quoted statement "work or starve" is surely a case of coercion.Don't change the subject.
Do you or do you not believe that people are coerced into doing work that they would rather not do?Yes, all political systems use coercion.
Same question same answer same subject.No, not the same subject at all. Unless of course you are using "political" in its form meaning " Based on or motivated by partisan or self-serving objectives"
What then makes people do work they that don't want to do?
Who are coercing those into that work and for what reason?
What is their motivation for coercing those who don't want to do those jobs?
Coercion takes a minimum of two people, the coerced and the coercer, if one is the person who doesn't want to do the job who is the other one.
The government coerces people to do jobs they don't want to do so they can feed themselves. "if you don't work you will starve" = coercion.The government just follows the orders of the masters.
Who is changing the subject now?
The government are the masters.
Of the rich , by the rich, for the rich.You can't be serious! The government are the masters!
Sure, the likes of Gates, Trump, the Koch brothers are all controlled by government.John these people are part of the government, whether directly or indirectly, nothing gets passed without their say so, the politicians are in the pockets of the rich whichever country you are in. Political lobbyists don't come from the poor they come from the rich.
If you really want to see one of these capitalist governments in action look to Africa where the poor starve whilst the rich eat their flesh.
Here in the west I cant think of one poor politician can you?No, not part of government. They use government as they use everything else but they don't lower themselves to do the dirty work.
Of course politicians are well paid, loyalty to their masters is rewarded (by us).So lets get back to your original statement about coercion.
Whichever government, left wing, right wing and any other combination will use coercion as part of its armoury to get the people to do as it needs them to do.
Liberty is not a condition. It is a state of mind. Too many taxes takes away the feeling of being free, of being autonomous. If you are trying to survive it is because you want to survive, not because someone is forcing you to survive.
It is very subtle, and yet very real.People who are fighting to survive have very little liberty.
You are assuming that the #1 priority is their personal survival. That is very often not the case; children usually come first, fellow soldiers or country often do, and even acquaintances or total strangers sometimes. Whereupon there is quite often a large degree of freedom.
So the person who misses out on meals to make sure that their children are fed have a large degree of freedom!
If anyone wants to help them out they may, and there are a lot of charitable organizations that do. Usually Christian based, I might add.
Yes, John, they do. Freedom does not mean you have everything you want or sometimes even everything necessary for continuation of life. It means you can try to get it. In US parlance it's that famous "pursuit" of happiness.
They fight. They have a reason to fight. Nothing wrong with that! Put your all into it.
It is good for the soul. Liberty is gained. It is never just handed on a silver platter. Except to those who are disabled in some way… and that's where their loved ones are expected to pitch in with love and compassion....think about the youth who are stuck living with their parents until they are way too old! You think they are happy?
No, they are not.
And the longer they stay, the weaker they get.
...the other side of the coin is discipline. Boundaries and discipline enable freedom. You can't have one without the other. So we willingly follow laws. it gives us freedom…those boundaries. Without consequences for breaking laws and boundaries, we cannot enforce them. The mentally ill are sick and need the treatment they are being given for their own good.
(But, maybe we should start holding doctors accountable for the mental breakdown of those they cavalierly prescribe psychotropic drugs to.)
We must have respect for human will. But humans will cannot just do as they like without regard for others… and that restriction is the basis for justice.Are they! I often feel that the mentally ill are being treated not for their own good but ours.
But not all doctors are ignorant or have given up. Not all. And a lot of advancement continues to be made. The best thing we can do is respect the power of the human body and heal ourselves and not rely on D R U G S! so much. Healing ourselves may have to be the order of the day over here!
- ahorsebackposted 11 years ago0
Mr Holden , if we were all from your Camelot my friend we could all know what you know .Unfortunately this is the real world, unlike Camelot we air all our laundry here , clean or dirty . And as the rest of the world rides the pony of our economic prosperity and makes its living betting against us our puritan work ethic will continue to thrive .for all of us , You as well !
Your economic prosperity! Remind me of how many of your fellow citizens are without gainful employment?
Far from the rest of the world riding on your economic prosperity, the rest of the world is sinking under the greed and incompetence of your so called financial experts.
Your capitalist masters give not a fig for your work ethic.A little under 10%. As the country provides gainful employment for millions of illegal aliens that should have gone to citizens, the figure is artificially high by several percent.
And that's in the worst depression in over 50 years.The system is being propped up by printing money (quantitive easing). All economies that have been burdened by this amount of debt, have failed. Printing money is a joke really, the classic 'wheelbarrow full of money for a loaf of bread' scenario i.e. hyperinflation. Sure, it's being kept under check so that might not happen, but the debt is not resolvable
As to the US prosperity, it's been based on an illusion. Fiat money. Money out of nothing. Not real. And even then, it's held by a very few and the masses don't benefit. If everyone in the US had access to the services they actually need, then the term prosperity might be appropriate.
The tune of organised society has never changed, no matter the name it goes under. The collapse of Enron is very representative of the whole thing really. Or the 2008 crunch, more money out of nothing, by giving mortgages to people who would never be able to repay, ever...I would disagree that the debt is unresolvable - while no other nation has ever survived with that much debt, no other nation has had the productivity of this one, either. It is not beyond our capabilities yet.
Another 5-10 years of liberal policies, continued massive borrowing and printing of money, and it will be, though. Just leave Obamacare as it is and within a decade it will all collapse again, and make the housing bubble look like a child's soap bubble.It's a fair point. A friend of mine works in the financial sector in Manhattan, and his view is that if there is a bigger problem, it'll just throw out all the bad eggs, as it were. But things continue.
Actually, the ratio of debt to whole economic worth of a country is worse here in the UK than the US, as far as I understand. It's a thin line, austerity measures, but that don't cripple too much.It IS tough to make those necessary austerity measures. No one agrees as to what is necessary to continue and someone will always be hurt.
So we borrow more.Or, in the case of Cyprus, do a money-grab and watch how the world reacts... Cyprus was a perfect test bed for something like that... what a coincidence... ! :-))
Europe is getting scary, isn't it? As more and more nations find they simply cannot maintain their standard of living without a strong workforce, that giving away tax receipts does not produce anything of value, it's getting scary.
Europe getting scary? The entirety of western Europe declined much less than the US during this crisis.
And it's crucial stats have been rising continuously counter to ours which have been falling.Europe is getting scary as the auditors have failed to sign off on the books for the 19th year running, this time there is 25% of spending that cant be accounted for.
How long would you last if you told the taxman you couldn't account for 25% of your spending?
No, I said gainful employment, not employment that lets the employed slip into poverty.
...meanwhile we keep pouring lots of money into government programs to "help us all". Did I mention LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of money?
Where could all that money GO?
Why do we have so much debt?
-why would we even try to build a Health Insurance program which costs so much when we have so much debt?
We are an extremely rich country. not bragging. Just fact.
So, why the debt again?Deficit is falling fast you can stop waiting for the sky to fall chicken little
In what way does a social democracy differ from a democratic republic? The answer is surprisingly subtle. The citizens of a social democracy must live with the tyranny of obligation due to the simple fact that they have agreed to pay for universal welfare. At this point, we, in our democratic republic, still have a say whether to pay for universal welfare or not.
How is the tyranny of obligation detrimental? Consider why we have a strong military force of willing soldiers: NO DRAFT! President Nixon and Martin Anderson determined that the incidence of protesting was attributed to the obligation of to going to war, especially one not believed in. By abolishing the draft, voluntary service with honor and valor was instituted. Therefore we must be careful how we vote. Keeping our taxes low, will stop social democracy in its tracks, enabling us to survive through the joy of liberty, as opposed to the misery of obligation.
Whether we change into a tyrannic Social Democracy or maintain freedom-promoting Democratic Republic, it is up to us, the constituents of America's fifty states. If we desire to maintain liberty and prevent tyranny/obligation, we must put wise governors and representatives into office who recognize the vital importance of maintaining our system of government and are willing to operate within the guidelines of the Constitution of the United Sates of America, which is a very worthwhile document in promoting individual independence/ liberty.
...If you go in for that sort of thing.The problem with all governments whichever flag they fly under is they seem to role from one crisis to another with comparative ease.
They are constantly trying to fulfil the dreams of all whilst filling their own ambitions and pockets.
How the hell has your government got into $trillions of debt, how the hell has my government got into £billions and £billions of debt? And the biggest con of all is the idea that we done it!"we" as in the people? And not " them" ?
How can they pass the buck in good conscience? All we do is pass them the money with willing obedience and trust ! ! ! No conscience. HINT: No one holding them accountable…not even God.
Sometimes the Fear of the Lord is a good thing.Stupidity will always exact a heave price, and voting the same thieves into office year after year is stupid. Yes, "we" did it. Not "them", "we".
- what will make us smarter? less apathy and more of a sense of urgency to preserve a democratic republic and prevent a social democracy. It gets down to understanding the importance of,
NO NEW TAXES FOR UNIVERSAL WELFARE.
This should be the understanding across the board. A given. If you live in this country you should not dare want it to become a social democracy. We must stop this evil trend in its tracks.The further we are taken (or allow ourselves to be taken) into the nanny state where we are automatically considered to be incompetent the harder it will be to ever recover.
(- kids are voting this way as a matter of course. is it too late?)
Possibly it is. There is an awful lot of entitlement philosophy out there.
There is also some objection to that I think, though, so maybe it isn't too late yet. But we either get people to stand on their own two feet or we WILL go down. A sad fate for a country that just 200 years ago had no concept of a nanny state at all.As a UK resident with family in the US this is a fascinating thread to read . There are several things worth commenting on. First, I think the US, like the UK, is already a nanny country. But ironically - and as ever - that comes down to the whole suing culture i.e. money making, as usual, and so procedures in place so that no-one does anything at all which could lead to suing, so it's not a political force behind that. As to tax for free welfare, I'd say two things about it. First, is that the NHS in the UK, for all the criticisms, is a fantastic thing. Me, and many others, have experienced it first hand...however: the tax/debt burden is real, and from what I understand, is the reason the UK has such a huge debt to GDP ratio. Since the NHS started, everyone is living older and longer and there are more of us now...
- why did Obama stop work-for-welfare programs? Why did he double the amount of people on food stamps, change 99 weeks for unemployment benefits from three months.
Because he disregards this country's core beliefs to buy votes. And we do buy them.
Q. Why?
A. 1. Because we are not patriotic enough to preserve a strong thriving representative democracy.
2. We have become weak and needful of a nanny state.
Hint: The states need to reclaim their rightful constitutional power. Texas is a good example.You continue to ignore the basis that your assertion refutes. America has developed into an oligarchy where money buys influence to its own degradation. Unless we address this issue there is little hope for any change. Just look at the billion dollar election for president we just had. Those with money get heard. If you think that Obamas getting elected was merely because of the minority vote you are not looking at the end result of the influence pressed by the liberal elite. They knew if there was placation to the poor and under representation of the illegal immigrant labor as their basis their candidate would be re-elected. After the election the corporate influence is once again allowed to trade internationally with cheap labor, military contracts were continued and the banks still gain historic wealth. Where is America in any of that? That the greed is allowed unabated all the while the other hand is showing us the hand outs to the poor as the root of our problem. Too many sheeple sleep.
- ahorsebackposted 11 years ago0
Until you and I awaken from our selfish stupor in America and start electing better people to represent us we will continue this spiraling downhill trip! I for one am glad that this frustration and downright anger is beginning to show , what it represents is a need and a movement towards some sort of revolution . peaceful of coarse and yet they will always lead to where they will ! This is admittedly the worse congress and administration EVER in America , as for any progressive actions to better our country , our economy , our cultural and social well being . The only answer is a grass roots awakening and action to eliminate the two party control , and yet voting America shot itself in the foot as to using the tea party as it could have been used ! Personalty I would like to see it move to the streets , there is sometimes , no better message than a tall tree and a short rope ! YOU can be fired for lack of performance on your job , but congress can't be ? The president can''t be ? The head of all these government departments can't be ? WAKE up America!
There is one thing the politicians cannot remove from the mix. Although they have tried with the gerrymandering and bribes, they can't change the right of the people to vote. What the politicians continue to do through controlled media and extreme political influence is to defray the truths of their actions and feed us volatile non issues to distract us from what we should be thinking, what is best for us and not necessarily for them. Free enterprise is at the core of what makes this country a super power and continues to fuel our economy. Unfortunately free enterprise is a cancer to a representative government and rewards only those who contribute. Until we understand that the money in our political system is at its core we will never improve our situation as a nation.
Term limits, publicly financed campaigns and lobby reform is our only salvation from the corrupt political system this country now has.the Native Americans did not want to join the White Man.
... maybe they had something there.I too share your frustration and the time is ripe for a grass roots movement to move from this structured status quo politico towards more intelligent and reasonable methods of governing. But knowing how America is split almost right down the middle on conservative and liberal lines how is there to be any compromise and co-operation as to how this could take place? The tea party came along and hobbled the GOP from being able to do anything but hold onto any power they already had. The liberals were afraid of posing any other question other than supporting Obama because he held a strong alliance of the minority vote. The theme always seems to be whose gang is bigger than the other and how they can overthrow the other. Everyone else seems to fall by the wayside watching the GOP and the Democrats hash it out.
For a grass roots movement to take place there has to be a basic agreement among those that are truly interested in change. Obama was so far from it that the line "New boss is the same as the old Boss" still echoes in the aftermath of Bush. Agreement is needed, but if it is as you say that revolution needs to take place (peacefully of course), then there needs to be a less spirited argument ramrodding ones ideals over another's for it to have any "legs".
I think a good beginning dialog that could be started is for us to agree on Term limits, publicly financed campaigns and lobby reform. Clear the air of the source of the corruption, influential money, and let responsible and sensible governing begin.You are asking the politicians to enact laws that are not in their best interests, that will hurt them severely and cripple/destroy their dreams of power.
And you are asking the people to vote for politicians that will do that instead of politicians that bring home the bacon each year in the form of massive projects paid for by someone else; projects that will disappear if politicians put the needs of the country first and no longer buy votes with all the pork.
Neither is human nature. The second just might be possible, but it will absolutely take a grass roots program to teach people the morality issues in sucking off of others for what they want but don't want to pay for.What I am really asking is to leave the politicians out of it. For a grass roots organization to have any affect there has to be a degree of community and unity. That leaves out the constituencies that are out for what they can get for themselves. Are there enough true patriots so to speak? I don't know but time will tell as you can only stick the golden goose so much before it deflates and leaves us all flat on our faces. As far as God is concerned I believe the Bible said it so succinctly with "render unto Caesar what is his". God has no interest in the trifles of mans attempt at order as Jesus did overturn the money changers tables in disgust. Let God handle it, is a cop out to our responsibilities and we should expect no help with this self produced debacle of a corrupt government or its cesspool of thieves we call congress.
You kind of lost me here - I'm unable to conceive of a governance style without politicians. Not in a nation of 350 million individuals, anyway.
It seems the wealthy republican donors want power as much as the career dems. they are both just fine with Obama's stance/ position/authority/tyranny and lies. He should probably have been impeached a long time ago. But then there is Biden. We are sunk I guess. How can we resist the total corruption in the government… made up of the people We elected! We need to pray. That might be the only solution at this point. I see nothing wrong with getting God on board. Not politically or anything... just quietly within our own beings...
In case you never noticed, God is always on the side of those with the biggest guns. So to speak.
The power is in DC and that's whose side God is on.I believe time will reveal that God is on the side of those who want the best for mankind. To believe this, is to have reason to live.
God has given mankind the will to guide their own lives and not depend on some greater governmental force. I say, have faith in the youth. Guide them to have a work ethic…
and let there be work!Absolutely have faith in the youth (while applying a board to their backside). Give them skills, give them a work ethic and teach them that only they are responsible for themselves. And let there be work.
Just, please, do not depend on prayer. It has never been shown to any affect whatsoever, just as which side God is on (always declared to be both) never matters.( Shhh...Don't tell anyone, but I have discovered that the invisible spirit of goodness/love/wisdom is real and physical manifestations are unreal! and prayer does work when used toward those ends.
Its all we have.)Well...I don't know. I've always found that physical manifestations are quite real and have the most effect. Manifestations like a switch to a backside of a misbehaving child - careful and judicious use of such manifestations are quite useful; far more so than kneeling with them and "talking" to their invisible friend.
Nuns with their rulers would seem to agree with me, and should have great experience with the prayer thing. They must ignore it for some reason...oh no! kneeling with them works quite well! It is going within, wilderness. You and I are actually quite invisible! and yet, how real that invisible part of us is!
(I am counting the seconds before the arrival of unohoo. Enjoy it while it lasts.)If I'm invisible, why do I keep shaving? And getting haircuts and such?
No, that ugly thing in the mirror is me, not just my imagination. Quite visible, unfortunately.- but who wants to pick up the razor...
the invisible will power that is the essence of your self!
Who has the opinion about the face in the mirror?
(Would atheists believe they had faces if there were no mirrors?)Yep - still have a face. My gandkids give it a kiss now and then, so I know it's there. And the youngest is always stealing the nose, eyes, mouth and whatever else is there and putting them on herself. Whereupon I have to chase her down to get them back so I'll still have a face.
No, I do not believe you. If there were no mirrors you would not believe that you do have a face. No matter how much I or anyone else told you so! LOL!
You may be right. Imagination only, making me thing it is there when it is not.
A common problem among the Home Sapiens, I hear, and I've being living there for many years now.
I am as invisible as God. therefore I am proof of God… and made in his
i n v i s i b l e "image." Yes we are figments of God's imagination… wait... what forum is this?You mean Rad Man's and ATM's place! No thanks.
- ahorsebackposted 11 years ago0
The general decline in the once great American culture is the fault of all of those who don't care ! Those who bitch constantly but never vote , Those who follow blindly a party's stance without thinking independently about the issues , those whom are just too busy to get involved in political debate and discussion And those who drink the cool-aid of politically correct ideals , conservative or liberals ! You can always tell the ones who let others make up there very minds .
Is eighteen too young an age to truly engage the lack of maturity with the privilege of voting ?
Are political contributions by corporations the equal of an individually representative vote ?
Term limits -term limits -term limits ! No one is worthy of earning a career in "leadership" positions !
Many , too many politicians ,make careers out of a job that should be done by voter selected 'real people ", a carpenter, a waitress , a daycare worker ! Perhaps a jury like selection process of real people to these congressional and senate positions is the answer?I think the real problem is that history is boring to the youth, philosophy is boring to the youth, and politics is boring to the youth.
Is it is boring to the adults? Do adults just teach because they need a job/career to survive? Do adults just teach to indoctrinate rather then to encourage true thinking and reflecting?
What is the problem? The problem is that the majority of people do not understand what we need to preserve and value politically, psychologically, philosophically. We need to understand why this country was founded. We need to read the Federalist Papers. And Good luck with that! "Publius" is very hard to understand the way "he" wrote back then! We have de-evolved it seems. Oh wrong thread."It been already observed that the federal government ought to possess the power of providing for the support of the national forces; in which proposition was intended to be included the expense of raising troops, of building and equipping fleets, and all other expenses in any wise connected with military arrangements and operations. But these are not the only objects to which the jurisdiction of the Union, in respect to revenue, must necessarily be empowered to extend. It must embrace a provision for the support of the national civil list; for the payment of the national debts contracted, or that may be contracted; and, in general, for all those matters which will call for disbursements out of the national treasury. The conclusion is, that there must be interwoven, in the frame of the government, a general power of taxation, in one shape or another." Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers No. 30
"Money is, with propriety, considered as the vital principle of the body politic; as that which sustains its life and motion, and enables it to perform its most essential functions. A complete power, therefore, to procure a regular and adequate supply of it, as far as the resources of the community will permit, may be regarded as an indispensable ingredient in every constitution. From a deficiency in this particular, one of two evils must ensue; either the people must be subjected to continual plunder, as a substitute for a more eligible mode of supplying the public wants, or the government must sink into a fatal atrophy, and, in a short course of time, perish." Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers No. 30
A complete power, therefore, to procure a regular and adequate supply of it,
as far as the resources of the community will permit...
and what determines the allowance?
The community and its resources.
Locality becomes all important.
What makes up locality?
Individuals.
you
me
To the People: We must not vote away our power toward social democracy through agreeing to high taxation. We are the only check toward social democracy.
To Congress: Forget little trivial issues. Instead focus on Granting us Liberty from self-imposed overtaxation and help us maintain our autonomy, self reliance, independence and individual strength.Unfortunately, autonomy, self reliance, independence and individual strength all require effort. Sometimes massive effort, and it is just SOOO much easier to be a sheep an let the nanny care for us all.
It's kind of like freedom; either be prepared to die for it or we will lose it. There is a high cost to be paid for the things in that list; either pay the cost or lose them all - and we are in the process of losing them with ever increasing insistence that we are unable and/or incompetent to maintain them.NO. I really think the problem is trusting the government too much. We are not realizing where the power of the government comes from. This is where America is not broken: the power of the individual to influence the government. We do not need to take back our power. We need to remember we have been given power and realize that we must exercise that power.
We cannot give up on ourselves. It is a matter of awareness. (Keep educating wilderness!)Same thing. We trust govt. to care for us and make our decisions for us; an obvious error but one that is easier than doing it ourselves.
Yes, we need to put out the effort, to pay the cost or our independence, by exercising our power over govt. We just don't do it (too much work) and are losing our autonomy, given to the govt. and the do gooders that know better than we do how we should live.Yes, those damn Foster Goodwills! I actually knew a guy who changed his name to Foster Goodwill.
Yes, good will is good but not to the extent that
I am
obliged, forced, mandated by government
to change my name to Foster Goodwill as well.
I will "do good" if and when I damn well please.
Keeping myself alive will enable me to help others!
Overtaxation puts a crimp in my budget and makes me feel like helping no one.Fight, Kathryn, fight! You may be wrong (maybe your should change your name) but it is your decision, not theirs. Give them just a little more, a few more years of increasing controls over what are your decisions to make, and we could lost it all.
Thats right, but I do have good-will! And no one has to tell me to have it (and no one should name themselves Foster Goodwill.) Having good-will toward others is a natural part of human nature… a given.
We all naturally have good will in our hearts, especially when we have enough money left over for Ourselves, (and those we choose to assist out of the good-will of our own hearts,) after the Government has taken their fair share from our paychecks.
I hope people understand this, because this is the real crux of the problem.
TWISIOh, I think it's understood. It's just that that understanding and knowledge is carefully buried out of sight or spun into something it never was, in order to meet the goal of increasing control. A political tactic, nothing more, and certainly not an honest statement bout you. Nearly a flat out lie in many cases but hey, if it helps control the masses by shaming them with lies, then so be it.
"…shaming them with lies…"
Q. Why would we believe these lies?
(Thank you for your sharing your ability to isolate the difficulty, wilderness.)Words don't have to be true to hurt - lies can hurt worse than truth if we can be made to think that the liar believes them about us. Or will spread the lie about us.
Sadly, even when we know what is going on, that it is a useless attempt to create shame where none exists, it can still hurt. That's what makes the tactic so effective. That and it is a form of the "Have you stopped beating your wife yet?" nonsense.Men know they might feel really irritated if his wife nags just one more second, or goes out with her friends just one more time leaving him and the dog with an empty fridge and no clean dishes.
Likewise, we know we live our lives selfishly most of the time because that is just the way life is. ( We look out for ourselves… Sorry , but it is human nature.) Sadly, others can make us feel guilty of not thinking of others first.
(But, we must know how we want to be treated; A person can only understand how to treat others through being aware of how he would like to be treated.)
Something like this?The wife beating was not my intent.
Rather, when someone screams out that "YOU JUST WANT THE LITTLE CHILDREN TO DIE" it hurts even we know it to be a lie and it should NOT hurt. If nothing else, it hurts that anyone would think that of us, even if they have the IQ of a peanut and even less empathy.Okay… they casually put us in the category of not caring. We are so prone to seeing ourselves as others see us that we over-react to what we imagine to be their negative opinion of us. We are tempted to try to prove that we are the opposite of what they say we are.
Something like that?Something like that except that there is nothing casual about it. I'm sure it is carefully calculated, in part to draw attention away from discussions they don't want to start. Pay attention - that particular one is brought up anytime there is a suggestion of cutting our charity programs. That particular concept is not acceptable in ANY form - the liberals want the country enslaved to government - and they need a diversion quick.
So say that the speaker hates children and wants them to starve, or some other sentence meaning the same thing. It hurts, the speaker stumbles a bit (or a lot) in what they're saying and the conversation goes elsewhere. No one wants that label on them.
Yes, and slaves are the of lowest class. We will all be paying our way into that class.
Its a great idea don't you think?
This just in:
Two reasons we fall prey to the lies / tactics of the politicians whose goal it is to obtain access to our supply of money and why we end up paying for welfare type programs we would otherwise not agree to:
1. We feel guilty for our self-orientation.
2. We want to prove we are others-oriented.
It is the same thing when we pass by a beggar. We want to help, but really cannot afford to help (or don't have any spare change or whatever) and feel guilty after saying no.
But think about it: We do not know what beggars will do with our contribution...most likely spend it on their habit - at which point it is called enabling.- PrettyPantherposted 11 years ago0
Interesting. I have not seen conservatives post incessantly, day after day, for years, about the billions of dollars spent invading other countries and killing people, eliminating loop holes for billionaires, decrying bailouts for banks so they could continue to pay their incompetent CEOs exorbitant salaries.
Instead, I have seen conservatives post incessantly, day after day, for years, about cutting social programs because providing school lunches, helping the unemployed, providing health care for the impoverished sick, and regulating the workplace will create a nanny state or an enslaved populace.
Hmmm, I wonder where we get the idea that most conservatives have different values from us?Perhaps because they work for their money? Probably from childhood.
Perhaps because they truly care about others and dislike the idea of making dependent slaves out of the population.
Perhaps because they automatically assume people are competent to run their own lives instead of automatically assuming they are not.
Perhaps because they have faith in people instead of seeing everyone as just another beggar in the street to be plied with money.
Perhaps because they believe a person has a right to what they own, to do with as they see fit.
And, maybe most of all, perhaps because they can and do look beyond today to see what their plans might bring the nation tomorrow.
There could be many many things that go into producing the superior conservative ideals.Neatly overlooking the fact that it isn't in the interests of the unemployed to be unemployed. It is however in the interests of the corporations.
Actually, they probably don't care, as long as they make their profits, anything to keep wages down.You don't like being unemployed, start your business. Voila! Instant employment!
Mow lawns, walk dogs, do shopping for people, play taxi for the elderly, paint fences, sell paper roses. Or even look in the "help wanted" ads - the list is nearly endless, but YOU are responsible for your employment, not some faceless political bureaucrat and not some corporate CEO.
I understand the liberal tale that only they can provide us with an income, but it isn't true. You CAN support yourself, and do it better than some wild eyed liberal pushing govt. money on you.Instant employment? You've got be kidding.
How about we work on re-starting the American industrial infrastructure and work on getting some real employment opportunities for Americans?
How about we stop allowing Congress to reward companies for taking work off-shore? For out-sourcing?
How is an adult supposed to feed, cloth, and shelter a family with money earned from doing jobs that are basically jobs for middle school kids?Agreed. This country became what it is because it had the highest production rates in the country. We pretty much out produced the rest of the world during WWII: now we push pencils and let other countries build the toys we want.
Not sure how you think Congress rewards companies for going off shore, but sure - if we are actually doing so it needs to stop.
You're not supposed to feed your family on a job intended for a teen. So don't take it. Get some training, start your own business, but don't take an entry level job as a career and cry it doesn't feed you.I agree with the above two posts.
There are very few IN THIS COUNTRY with true socialist leanings. I wonder if the many left leaning voters just have very kind hearts and don't know when to tighten up on the reins. I say, tighten up on the reins already!
(PS One way to do this is to not sign up for PPACA. It is our patriotic duty not to. TWISI)
@John
why is it the interests of the corporations to keep anyone unemployed? To keep wages low?
How is this accomplished?
I don't get it.
elucidate, s'il vous plait.By keeping people unemployed instead of hiring them for useful work, you limit your production and thus your profit. You also give your competition an opening to increase their own business by artificially limiting your production and profits.
Without people earning a wage, it limits the demand for your products (and those of other manufacturers), driving the price down along with your profits. As most unemployed will draw unemployment insurance in the US, the insurance costs will rise for the companies, again cutting into profits.
All of these reasons seem to give rise to the notion that companies deliberately keep unemployment as high as possible.The problem is not that manufacturers seek to keep unemployment high as clearly that doesn't work. As Riccardo demonstrated (in the 18th century) the goal is to keep people working at subsistence wages.
The problem is the internationalization of the economy; an internationalization (or globalization) that has, in fact, increased global employment. That increase in global employment, however, has come at the expense of employment in the US and at the expense of wages in the US.
Sadly, employment and globalization of manufacturing ARE zero-sum games. In other words, the "pie" of jobs is X and the more and more people who share the pie, the smaller the pieces.
The result for American workers: Fewer jobs and lower wages.You're assuming that everybody wants everything that is ever produced!
Stop assuming that and you will see the paucity of your argument.Right. We will assume that a company, producing X product that no one wants, will remain profitable and in business by not selling it. And presumably by not hiring anyone to run the production machines as well.
Got it.No, you don't have it.
The point is that locus of consumers shifts as employment/manufacturing shifts.
This is not rocket science boys.
This is basic macroeconomics---economics free of ideological underpinnings; macroeconomics that understands that wage earners are consumers and that consumers are wage earners and as the income of wage earners declines (in the aggregate) then consumption declines. As consumer declines demand declines. As demand declines supply will EVENTUALLY decline as well OR as in the case of globalized economy relocate to the loci of demand and consumption.No, that's not what I said at all.
How many makers of machine tools will actually ever want to buy a machine tool?
And what is the use of everybody being able to afford the X widget if the company can only produce enough to sell to 5% of the population?
This is NOT my argument at all. It is called Macroeconomics 101.
The bottom-line is that workers/labor are, in fact, consumers. In the present the consumer market has shifted somewhat (clearly not entirely or even significantly) from the US to other countries---including China where a consumer culture much like that in the US in the 1920s and again in the 1950s is emerging.
There is absolutely NO assumption that everyone wants everything produced, but there is an assumption---and it is NOT mine, but that of economists, that workers are the consumers of the goods and services they produce.
Simple, which is more likely to keep wages down - 10 people applying for one job or one person applying for ten jobs?
Stop assuming that the amount of production that people want is limited; we are far, far from that level. Ten employed people provide ten times the profit from their purchases than one employed person does.
That is not necessarily true. Many factors determine demand including how much money each employed person has to spend.
Ten people working at $20,00/year and making about do not have the purchasing power---particularly for non-essential and durable goods that drive the economy, that 5 people working in let's say higher education where the average professor makes about $75,000/year.
The incomes: $20,000 versus $375,000. Who do you really think is buying more as a group. Remember, all macroeconomic models are in the aggregate.Of course, but that has nothing to do with the claim that keeping unemployment figures high is good for profits.
Whether expensive labor or cheap, employment still puts both products AND money into circulation.I don't think this a left wing liberal publication -
http://www.businessinsider.com/companie … ore-2013-8??? Are you trying to equate low paying, entry level jobs to unemployment or conceding the point that employed people purchase products and contribute to the bottom line by changing the subject to something else?
No, I'm blowing away your claim that capitalist bosses understand anything beyond their own profit.
I thought it might go some way to explaining to you why your (and our) country is in such a mess.
I've never argued that giving people more money to spend is not a good thing - that's your shout and I rather thought the guy who wrote that article had been listening to you.
Who does this sound like -
"These days, if you suggest that great companies should serve several constituencies (customers, employees, and shareholders) and that American companies should share more of their wealth with the people who generate it (employees), you get called a "socialist." You get called a "liberal." You get told that you "don't understand economics." You get accused of promoting "wealth confiscation." You get told that, in America, people get paid what they deserve to get paid: Anyone who wants more money should go out and "start their own company" or "demand a raise" or "get a better job.""That would tend to mean that you understand that companies hiring more people, as long as they have work for them, recognize that the act is good for the bottom line.
Yes, I read that quote...and giggled when I recalled that you didn't think it was written by a left wing liberal. Or maybe "liberal" means something else in the UK - I'm having some trouble with that (among other things) in the raggedy pants book.In fact liberal means just about they opposite in the UK - they support the free market for a start!
You only have to look at our present government - a Conservative/Liberal coalition - to get the UK meaning.
But in the context of that article I was using liberal in the American way.Well, why can't our liberals be as smart as yours? We definitely got the short end of the stick there!
What, so smart that the only way they could get a taste of power was to sell out!
Well, ours did too. All of them, both liberal and conservative.
Do your lot get in with 40% of the vote and claim an outstanding majority?
Not quite, but both always claim that they are "the will of the people".
I tell you, it's gotten to the point to don't even listen to the rhetoric any more. Just look at where their votes have gone. It's too much trouble to dig through the lies and spin.As far as I can I ignore them as much as I can.
That's smart - I'm sure you have better things to do with your time. Like take out the garbage or feed the dog.
Don't have a dog and I'm too busy being a fifth column.
No dog here either (but do have a cat) and no fifth column.
Just always busy being a capitalist and amassing my first Billion. It's going well, I'm happy to say - only $999,999,932 left to go.Oh I will! Going out to the factory floor in a few minutes to knock a few heads, fire a few people and cut the wages for anyone left. And maybe I can steal a few lunches from the lunchroom as I go by.
… the curtains have closed and the lights have dimmed. The audience gets up to clap; at first slowly and then enthusiastically! Finally wilderness and J.L. Holden enter from stage right and left, though we are not sure which is which at this point… maybe both from the right…(?) They bow to the audience under the spotlight. Roses are tossed onto the stage while women scream and men whistle and stomp their feet.
encore???
spare me!
just kidding... yes, of course!!!!
no.
Bravo, I mean!
Now that's rude! You'll embarrass poor John, though I'm already so confused whether to be right or left it won't matter to me.Just being funny. I enjoy your debates with John tremendously.
- not that I understand them much… way over my head, unless I sit down with a magnifying glass. One of you should publish these discussions in book form and make some money… maybe you, wilderness and finish off that making that million! ( Sorry, I meant billion, of course! )and then out of the kindness of your generous heart give John more than half just to prove you really are a great guy. Of course, he will promise to do the same for you some day… and that this kind of idealism really does work in the real world!
Yes?Piffle! It is no mere million my capitalistic expectations are for; I search for the elusive Billion. Nothing less will do.
I'll make it, too, if I can just keep those fifth columnists away from the factory.
Say, John, could you use an extra Mil or so - maybe to give to some poor widow? Or something?hold up guys… what about throwing some of that one thousand million my way! I'll take that extra Mil, wilderness!
Oh wait, the government needs it worse than any of us.. they owe seventeen trillion…
But then the govt. is "printing" almost a billion per month! but then it is
e money…so… is it real money? oh well, if its good enough for the govt., its good enough for me. Ill take some of that too… Oh, wait I am just a peace loving citizen… I keep forgetting my place. sigh.I would give some, but I need a connection in the column.
I mean...uh...you're too nice a lady to become involved..in...such...
Uh...If I do, it's tax deductible, right? You got it!Or you could just contribute to my non-profit organization.
Fifth column:
A Fifth Column is a group of people who undermine a larger group, such as a nation or a besieged city, from within. The activities of a Fifth Column can be overt or clandestine. Forces gathered in secret can mobilize when coordination with an external attack requires and extend even to uniformed military operations as part of a coordinated campaign. They can be clandestine, involving acts of sabotage, disinformation, or espionage executed within defense lines by secret sympathizers with an external force. Wikipedia
I think he's talking about the powers behind the IRS.
BTW 16,000 new IRS agents have been hired for Obama care… approximately 300 per state!Yes, fifth column. John said he is in the fifth column, the one that will force me to pay a "living wage" to my sla...uh... workers. I need someone on the inside to provide more information. You don't fit the requirements.
16,000 new agents, huh? At what - $50,000 per year? Or $800,000,000 added to the cost of your health care. Our affordable health care, no less.
Amazing what some people will believe, isn't it?You might want to fact check your claim about 16,000 new IRS agents being hired; that is, if you care.
Can't speak for Kathryn, but I did that and found the 16,500 figure to be almost pure spin from the GOP. And "estimate" without any backing at all.
What I did NOT find, though, was any real estimate from either side. The Dems are keeping very quiet, or else providing "estimates" as silly as the one from the GOP. Wonder why?
What say you to Wilderness and I for president? I'm sure we'd quickly find a middle road.You know, I believe we could at that!
But then that's a fairly common mark of reasonable people, just not politicians.
And its a wrap. How I love to end these forum discussions peacefully.
BTW The shutdown of the economy can't be blamed on mysterious other forces, (such as greedy corporations hoarding money, etc.) but on this administration's policies of
1.) Overregulation:
a. business
b. people
c. hospitals
d. health care
2.) Shutting down the economy:
a. not allowing the keystone pipeline to go through,
b. ending coal production,
c. restricting natural gas production,
d. moratorium on off shore drilling.
PS How is the economy?
...and How is Joe Biden? He has been strangely out of view lately.
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