Trump's own intelligence chief says he is wrong

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promisemposted 4 years ago
If Trump's own intelligence chief says the Russians interferred in the election, why do Trump and his supporters insist otherwise?

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/16/dan-coa … putin.html
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Correction ; No, The obstructionist News Media says Trumps own intel people are in shock and when the U.S. socialist "Pravda media " speaks - liberals are all ears ..................just not all very intelligent about what they're hearing .
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  Eurofileposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  So that it gives the media something to focus on and illustrates divisions in the administration?
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks for bringing in your opinion, is this just madness or what? Now, Mr Trump is accusing his Chief of Intelligence of not knowing his job. Such cogent observations can only be made by the "stable genius" with the highest of IQ scores?
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  Eurofileposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  It's a bit like watching the next installment in a comic soap opera, playing out on the world stage.
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  MizBejabbersposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Yes it is, Eurofile, except that TV soap operas are for entertainment, this soap opera endangers the world.
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  Eurofileposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  That's what adds the element of horror to it. It's very alarming to see such a powerful man acting in such an unstable manner. It seems that we can't believe anything President Trump says, as it changes with each fresh news clip. I guess in the UK, we view him from a distance and are often obsessed with our own Brexit issues. All I can say is that I would like to fast forward to a more stable president next time.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  The problem shared by not only liberals here in America but those in other countries ? You believe how the Bias Inc. News Media defines every move that Trump makes , The American socialist party- Democrats , the Media and established DC , hate trump ,an outsider accomplishing great things !
  
  You fell for their message !
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  Eurofileposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I'm a little intrigued as to what 'great things' President Trump has accomplished?
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Trump is a nationalist , returning America from the One World Order B.S. almost all of Obama's political acts against America defined , Just yesterday in Africa Obama stated ,".............we must eliminated national borders from our midsts ....."
  Trump accomplishments ,
  -Economic growth
  -MFG. job creation
  -Border security
  -Illegal immigration
  -Military spending and moral increases
  -Nato spending negotiations
  -Climate Change US spending reductions
  -De-nuking North Korea
  -Iran policy reversal
  -US nat. resource protections
  -Cleaning out EPA of corruption
  -Trade renegotiations
  -Rural American jobs increases
  -I.C.E. increased activities
  
  To be continued.................
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  Eurofileposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  It'll be interesting to compare a before and after study of the Trump administration in a few years time.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  That will at least show how incredibly biased the media treatment of Trump is and was . By then liberals will be over their absolute mental breakdowns ?
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  He had made allies out of our enemies -- Russia and North Korea -- while making enemies out of our allies -- Canada, Japan, Great Britain, Europe, South Korea, and so on ...
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Does your left think that If they simply group - wish Trump failure It will happen , kind of
  Field of dreams ?
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  It's not just the left pointing out what seems to get more obvious each day. The true patriots will win in the end.
  
  https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/19/opin … gress.html
  
  Trump Is Being Manipulated by Putin. What Should We Do?
  
  Written by Texas R Congressman Will Hurd
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I guess you're too young to realize Russia has always , under all presidents , played this same psych manipulation games, Does that mean that it demands a total end to diplomacy with them , do we go to war over words ? Impeachment over having a relationship ?
  
  Why don't obstructionist's ever "get it ."
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I must look young in my pic. Thanks.I can clearly remember the Reagan days.
  
  Once again, who suggested we go to war?
  
  Glenis Rix pretty much summed it up for me.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  All the way back pre-Eisenhower in fact ...........It's just political games and yet today our left is actually melting down over what amounts to the same ole' same ole'.
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think the President stating he just might believe the KGB over our own intelligence agencies is same ole same ole. Trump is largely making the drama for himself.
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  wildernessposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  The last time a President did take the word of our own agencies he was hung out to dry, for "everyone" knew there were no WMD's over there. Just a thought...
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps, but we certainly would not have given credibility to Saddam Hussein's word in its place.....
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Do you really think that was the "last time" a president took the word of US intelligence agencies? Also, what you're saying is, American agencies got something wrong about 15 years ago, thus we should believe Putin and the KGB. At any rate, It's not at all clear that intelligence officials even told Bush there were WMDs
  
  " CIA Director George Tenet noted in early 2004, the CIA had informed policymakers it had "no specific information on the types or quantities of weapons agent or stockpiles at Baghdad's disposal." The "massive stockpile" was just literally made up." https://www.vox.com/2016/7/9/12123022/g … s-iraq-war
  
  "Just a thought"
  
  Yeah, it's a thought, but not a real level-headed one IMO.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  It seems that Trump's performance with Putin gave the entire world something to focus on.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Yes , impeachment item #168 .
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  crankaliciousposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  
  For you Game of Thrones fans.
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  IslandBitesposted 4 years agoin reply to this
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Glenis Rixposted 4 years ago
It would be like a comic soap opera were it not for the fact that the most powerful position in the free world is occupied with a man who increasingly appears to be demented or delusional. Advised Teresa May to sue the EU? He has no grasp on international politics. I wouldn’t trust him to make a cup of tea much less anything else. Dangerous times.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Sort of like Obama saying"...... it would be foolish to assume Russia or any country could affect our elections ......"?
  
  That delusional ?
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Still blaming Obama and Hillary, eh, Horse? What ever happened to the idea of "the buck stops here"? But I forget that adage came from a former president and a man with renown integrity, don't want to confuse such a man with Donald Trump.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  But then , did you ever respond about Obama , Hillary?
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Is that a direct quote? If so, source please.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Yes and there is video to prove it , his debating with Mitt Romney for one and he said it separately as well . Go U Tube it, Google it , I'm not your file clerk .
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Before you make outrageous claims why don't you provide the legitimate source first, unless you expect us to take YOUR WORD for all the outrageous things that you post.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Your saying its outrageous that I paraphrased Obama?
  
  Oct 2016 ?
  
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You: "Sort of like Obama saying '...... it would be foolish to assume Russia or any country could affect our elections ......'"?
  
  Me: "Is that a direct quote? If so, source please."
  
  You: "Yes and there is video to prove it . . ."
  
  Credence2: ". . . why don't you provide the legitimate source first, unless you expect us to take YOUR WORD for all the outrageous things that you post."
  
  You: "Your saying its outrageous that I paraphrased Obama?"
  
  Come on, that's just foolish. You're not even trying to hide the lies now.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Is there a difference between lies and perception? As in, perception is what I want to believe instead of the truth?
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You just perfectly described the modern liberal in America !
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You could put it that way, but I think that sounds too benign.
  
  Don't get me wrong, thinking something is a direct quote, then realizing it's a paraphrase could be a misperception, or a simple mistake. I did the same recently and corrected it when I became aware of the error.
  
  But there's a difference between that, and calling something a "direct quote", then explicitly refusing to provide a source for it. Then only providing a source when challenged by multiple people. Then calling it a "paraphrase" even though it's nothing like what was said. Then not even acknowledging that contradiction.
  
  Those are all red flags that suggest a person is, at best, unwilling to admit an error, at worst deliberately trying to deceive and misinform in order to promote their political view. There is a name for that: propaganda.
  
  Suggesting Obama said ". . . it would be foolish to assume Russia or any country could affect our elections" is propaganda. It's not a paraphrase of what he said. It's a totally made up statement.
  
  There is no excuse for it, and no place for it in sensible political discussion. If someone is capable of navigating the internet, they are capable of verifying a quote and providing a source, if asked.
  
  Normally I would give the benefit of the doubt, but when an individual exhibits the same pattern of behaviour (posting misleading or outright false information over and over again) then I'm sorry, but I have no more benefit to give. As the saying goes, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.
  
  Too much false information is being peddled around. Propagandists should not be allowed to hijack and shape the political discourse, and should be called out for posting false information.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  To all of those who're so inclined to critique my opinions ; I have read hundreds of you guys posts that quote this or that source of news media , U -Tube posts or fringe "media " sources , whoever . Do you know why I don't quote "so and so "? Because all of the "so and so's " like CNN , CBS , ABC , Fox , all of the most likely "trusted sources " are just as bad as the great Facebook and share major resemblances to said biased reporting !
  
  So what good does it do to quote ,as if biblical , one or another of these meda giants when probably seventy five percent- plus of these sources cannot be proven as" truths " to begin with . Opinions is all they are .
  
  Media bias is so bad that at some point it ALL becomes journalistic and not direct news reporting Am I wrong ? , Now , you don't like my opinions and I don't much like yours at times either , Suggestion ,"Get off your high horses" and learn to appreciate other opinions , because in truth , That is all any of us are doing here anyway , Opinionating !
  
  Propagandist's ? No one in our recent 100 year history can claim more adherence to" Propaganda " than the democratic party in America today, including communism's Pravda * just as the news media liberal puppets that continue to prop each other up constantly! My advice , I'm not likely to stop , so get over yourselves .
  
  "Red Flags " The single biggest red flag to most Americans is just how 'one voiced' and intolerant the leftist fringe and your media has become in America , And here's a piece of news for you , The left in America OWN's this activist and continuing violent rhetoric whether you claim to belong to the alt-left or not , what's happening in the streets, the police officer killings , Antifa , you own it all and you know it !
  There's your "red flag " , enjoy it .
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  This is not about "media bias" or any of the other verbiage in your comment.
  
  Media bias did not force you to make up words, tell everyone those words came out of President Obama's mouth, refuse to give a source, then claim it was paraphrasing.
  
  You did that. You didn't have to. You chose to.
  
  You can't control what other people say and do, but you can control what you say and do. So take responsibility for your actions. If others choose to lie and misinform, that doesn't mean you have to.
  
  Facts matter. So don't make stuff up, be prepared to provide a source if asked, and admit when you get it wrong. It's not rocket science.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I tried to make it benign because I tend to provoke a strong response from the far right.
  
  Otherwise, I agree with your entire post. Too much false information, too many anonymous sources that were created to spread propaganda. That's why I try to post links to credible sources.
  
  I understand the temptation to post something tinged with bias on either side. I have done it myself on occasion.
  
  But when they peddle downright falsehoods and insist they are true, even in the face of proof they are wrong (i.e., a video of Trump making fun of a disabled reporter), that's when it's time to call them on it.
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  IslandBitesposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  This was said in the debate. Didnt have to do with the elections. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter … itical-fo/
  
  The quote Mr. Twitter used, has to do with his claim that widespread voter fraud would rob him of the election, not Russia.
  
  http://time.com/4535623/president-obama … ranscript/
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  How strange that you have a source for that direct quote and don't want to share it.
  
  I found a fact-check for a quote from Sean Hannity, who claimed President Obama said something very similar. The result of the fact-check was:
  
  "The quote Hannity used was out of context when presented as the basis of a misleading argument about Obama’s response to Russian meddling. Obama was actually responding to Trump’s claims about voter fraud potentially changing the outcome of the election"(my emphasis)(1).
  
  And in case that's not sufficient, here's another fact-checking site that concluded the same(2) and here's a report that concluded the same(3)
  
  So I strongly suspect Obama did not say "...... it would be foolish to assume Russia or any country could affect our elections ......". Either that or I just haven't been able to find a single source that contains that quote, which would be very odd.
  
  There's only one way to clear it up. Provide the source. I'll be more than happy to stand corrected.
  
  (1) http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/st … -coverage/
  (2) https://www.factcheck.org/2018/02/trump … omparison/
  (3) https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics … ion-russia
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you. He doesn't seem to have much of a grasp on anything.
  
  At least he is now admitting that Russia did interfere.
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  MizBejabbersposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Glenis, did you notice that he stated numerous times during their press conference that he "gave a suggestion to Teresa May". The way he kept saying it, he was rubbing it in and it sounded more like a command.
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Onusonusposted 4 years ago
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  ++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Perhaps instead you could address the George Will article in the original post?
  
  Do you agree with what he says in it or not?
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  MizBejabbersposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  That probably comes next. We need to guard our uranium supply!
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Glenis Rixposted 4 years ago
He put a slightly different slant on it than she did. When asked, she said that he 'advised' her - with a degree of incredulity that she couldn't conceal. I cannot believe that he has survived this long in the role of President. From this side of the Atlantic his position looks increasingly tenuous.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  He has a fierce following in the U.S. that wants to believe Russian propaganda.
  
  They stop the Republican Congress from doing anything.
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Glenis Rixposted 4 years ago
I notice that there have been several references on this forum to 'fake' news. If there was no news whatsoever about Trump's activities his own words mark him out for what he is - inarticulate, ill-informed about global affairs, totally lacking the presence expected in a world leader, and dangerously erratic. Perhaps it would be better for his reputation if he stopped giving interviews and stopped tweeting.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  In your opinion !
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
Besides Trump is inarticulate for sure but a very effective leader where Obama was extremely articulate and couldn't lead people out of the dark with the only flashlight in the tunnel .
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  crankaliciousposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Flying Spaghetti Monster!
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Wow ,...... That is brilliant .
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  crankaliciousposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  The subject of the forum is Trump's disagreement with his own intelligence chief. You always change topics when you're on the defensive. As Mike has informed me, it's called a "straw man".
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
Well , first define interfering , Is advertising on Facebook interfering if so , to what degree is that politically effective ? Psychological interfering is something the US and the USSR and then Russia have been doing to each other for over 60 years . As a conservative my point is this , Given the above why all of a sudden is this ongoing psych- war played by both and in fact all sides so important , Why is it now so important ?...........Liberal outrage politics!
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
One of the major problems that the You have with ALL Trump issues is that they can't actually separate Game of Thrones fantasy from the reality of modern politics . You can't separate House of Cards from the actual White House. The fantasy of Bourne Identity from their own identity .

Time to grow up people .
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Can you tell us more about your experience with modern politics?
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Yes , life experiences ,It's called actually having a grasp on reality .
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You overrate yourself, I have had life experiences as well and they do not parrellel yours. So, MY reality is not your reality, so what make yours any more credible than mine?
  
  So, who has determined that your analysis is foolproof and without error?
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  "Life" experiences is not the same as experience with modern politics.
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  MizBejabbersposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  +++++ Anyone who has had any experience working with modern politics knows that. Apparently those who armchair quarterback do not.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I'm glad you have that insight. Even the local politicians I know have to operate in a strange environment.
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
Don , Although you're more middle of the road than I am , you know what i'm saying is true so stop claiming the higher horse attitude of honesty . The only people who seam enthralled by facts and statistics are liberals yet only when the agree with their positions . Go off course from that "one thought' mentality and you might as well try herding cats into an oven , liberals will actually blow a gasket .

Go back to Obama in 2016 talking about election tampering Oct 19 2016 , U Tube , Obama talking about election rigging , tampering , or fraud , Granted the only word 'stuttering Obama' didn't use that day was Russia but "............ Rigging , tampering , Trump whining about rigged elections ..........''
So you genius' go ahead and tell me NOW that the Russians actually used " fraud ,tampered with , rigged or influenced our elections ".
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Doesn't matter whether you think Obama woulda, shoulda, coulda said what you wrote. The fact is he didn't.
  
  He did not, at any point, say that Russia could not interfere with the election, nor did he say Russia could not influence the election. He spoke about voter fraud only(1).
  
  To my knowledge no one has been formally accused of "voter fraud", so your effort to make your misinformation relevant is no good.
  
  You made something up and you got called out. Stop digging.
  
  Like I said, don't make stuff up, be prepared to provide a source if asked, and admit when you get it wrong. It's very simple.
  
  (1) https://obamawhitehouse.archives.gov/th … blic-italy
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
Don....... Duh ! That is exactly the conversation I'm talking about on U Tube . No, a US election cannot be rigged ! Don, Wouldn't that include all of the liberal nonsense, hogwash and obstructionism about Russian Election Tampering ?

Was the election tampered with ?
Was the election rigged ?
Was any machine tampered with ?
Was ONE US vote effected * ?

*Yes Russia allegedly bought Facebook adds , thus attempting to sell one ideology or another to targeted US voters Isn't that all we know , isn't THAT all that's happened ?

wow !-
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  Don Wposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  *sigh* yes ahorseback I know that is a transcript of the conversation you are talking about. That is why I posted a link to it.
  
  Voter fraud is one way to influence an election. There are many others. Obama spoke specifically about voter fraud. That is why he used the words "voter fraud":
  
  "Every expert, regardless of political party, regardless of ideology -- conservative or liberal -- who has ever examined these issues in a serious way will tell you that instances of significant voter fraud are not to be found". The rest of his comments were in the same context.
  
  You are pretending he spoke about other ways of influencing elections. He didn't.
  
  You are peddling misinformation. No one sensible is buying it. Move on and do better.
  
  How can I do better, I hear you cry! Don't make stuff up, be prepared to provide a source if asked, and admit when you get it wrong. Simple.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Don , Thank you for [not ]answering my questions .
  
  Maybe next time .
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
We have finally figured out how to protect the integrity of all future national elections ; The face of the 2020 election monitor ;
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Glenis Rixposted 4 years ago
It's difficult to imagine how the UK will continue a diplomatic relationship with Russia now that the people who brought Novichok into our country have been identified as Russian agents. Do we simply give the ambassador a rap on the wrist and expel a few more diplomats. One man was deliberately killed by poisoning and a totally innocent member of the public died because the perfume spray bottle in which the Novichok was carried was simply discarded in a park. Three more were seriously ill. Anyone who believes that Putin is well-intentioned is blinkered - in my opinion.
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Glenis, we are not to be deceived, Putin is a killer. Trump in his naivety does not appreciate who it is that he is dealing with...
  
  Does he really think that he can charm and reason with such a man? Gorbachev and Khrushchev were far safer bets.
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Glenis Rixposted 4 years ago
I agree.
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
Hard son , Who can blame him , four things out of Trump's control have happened so far ;

One , Under Obama's watch the two DOJ and FBI began obstruction of his campaign and his presidency including leaking to the media .

Two, After his election , Obama holdovers or Hillary malcontents in these two offices continued to obstruct using Federal offices and continued the same acts .

Three , Mueller has said Trump isn't a Target but a subject of these probes that have all but proven O Trump/ Russia collusion.

Four , Mueller's team ALSO leaks like a siv to the media .

How would you view at least these two departments , The DOJ and the FBI and the LEAD people in them including but not limited to Valerie Jarrett , Loretta Lynch , James Comey , Peter Strzok , say nothing about a completely bias newsmedia that was complicit in and with all of the above ?
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Wow. Next to nothing you stated is based in fact. And, yeah, I probably wouldn't like the FBI, CIA the DOJ if they were busting my buddies and investigating them, and likely me, for crimes. Criminals never like the people who bust them.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You would have to suffer an absolute brainfreeze to not know that which is true about in house obstructionists of the FBI and DOJ , Perhaps you've been watching and worshipping Rachel Madcow for too long to know , no one is standing there beside her anymore but you.
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Rachel Madcow?
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Rachel Maddow ...............a joke .? Come on catch up there will you .
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You seriously took that as I didn't know what you were referring to? Maybe you're running a bit behind.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Is that the same Rachel Maddow who is a Rhodes Scholar with a PhD in political science?
  
  Obviously an idiot.
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  its right up there with Rush Limburger....
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Ha ha..Sean Hammity...I'm not sure that's even a funny one, but...I made an effort.
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Onusonusposted 4 years ago
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Isn't it interesting how baffling the left justifies their own insanity ? I am now searching to predict Impeachment reason # 171 , perhaps you can help , I must say I'm starting to get confused as they are now mixing in previous numbers I had reasoned as once defeated.
  I do feel a new impeachment reason "resting in the wings" and am close to predicting it .
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You got me Onusonus. I am not a political meme fan, and I did not check this one to see if it is true, (a la photoshopped), but ... it does carry a sharp point.
  
  GA
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  This meme speaks to the lack of intelligence of all the Trump derangement today .
  Pretty simple GA ,but you know that too..
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Hey there ahorseback, did you miss this one? https://hubpages.com/politics/forum/339 … ost4018209
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  We're talking two different situations , I don't know about Clark/ Hannity . But I've seen enough of The View to know their lies and Goldberg's a totally brainless wonder .
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Then you didn't choose to believe Pirro just because she was a prosecutor?
  
  GA
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I chose to believe Pirro because honesty and fact is far more a part of this prosecutors working character than this particular actress' and I recognize that from my life experiences and I stated this because I fully recognize there are those who cannot.
  
  If you cannot , that's you own personal cross to bear.
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  If all the circumstances in this case were reversed, Horse, you wouldn't be talking about all this "integrity stuff". So why don't you just stow away all of your horse droppings?
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  "... personal cross to bear" Just one of so many ahorseback. I also bear the cross of humility, (although it does slip to the ground occasionally), the cross of tolerance, (practice is making this one easier to carry), and ... others.
  
  You assumed I believed one way, but you have nothing to base that assumption on other than my challenge to the determinant that you used to decide who to believe - which has now expanded to be more than originally stated. Which was my point.
  
  GA
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Memes like this say absolutely nothing. Troll farms put a lot of effort into putting this type of stuff together because it speaks to the simple folk. Being civil with Putin is not the problem, and you understand this if you have anything going on in your head at all.
  
  It's just sad that anyone would think this tells a story of any kind. It's humorous, but really, a "sharp point." Is this what they teach you in "conservative spin writing 101?"
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Well, hello again hard sun.
  
  Did you miss these points; " I am not a political meme fan ..." and "I did not check this one to see if it is true... "?
  
  Political memes are usually untrustworthy. As you mentioned, they are frequently put out by "troll farms" with an obvious purpose
  
  But ... when they do illustrate a valid point, does it matter who put them out?
  
  My "Conservative Spin-Writing 101" course included many lesson plans. Among them was the idiocy of denying any truth - just because you don't like, (or trust), the source. It also included a primer on the pitfalls of assumed superiority - typically illustrated by an enlightened folks vs simple folks mindset, or an assumption of moral superiority - this one is especially tricky because sometimes the obvious is very true, and sometimes it is just the result of a closed mind.
  
  It is good to see your participation in this forum, but it would be a more valuable exchange if you could elevate your responses above the tactics of insult, condensation, and ill-informed moral judgments.
  
  Considering who you think would be receptive of this meme, do you deny that the message it makes is rather pointed - whether you accept that message or not?
  
  GA
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  "Memes like this say absolutely nothing. Troll farms put a lot of effort into putting this type of stuff together because it speaks to the simple folk. Being civil with Putin is not the problem, and you understand this if you have anything going on in your head at all.
  
  It's just sad that anyone would think this tells a story of any kind. It's humorous, but really, a "sharp point." Is this what they teach you in "conservative spin writing 101?"
  --------
  GA Well, I think that hard sun is correct, the meme and images are misleading and if you didn't know better you could apply some equivalency of speaking with Putin over tea and crumpets about the weather verses statements Trump is accused of making to anything but an ally.
  
  Conservatives are trying to sell this and it won't work. As HS implies, this issue is more complicated than just prominent American officials speaking with Putin
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Hi Credence2: They are trying to sell it and getting offended when called out on the clear spin that it is. I thought that was a left-wing snowflake tactic?
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Looks like I dug myself a hole Cred. Let's see if I can dig it deeper, or perhaps pull myself out.
  
  First, the "sharp point" I was referring to was the criticism of Trump 'playing nice' with Putin - instead of challenging him or publicly calling him out' for the election interference issue, versus the pictured folks "playing nice" with Putin. Also in that context was my perception that currently, the Left seems to be saying Putin is an evil ex-KGB operative that just cannot be trusted - ever, by any sane person.
  
  Starting with the perceptions that I had, (and still hold), when I viewed the meme, and, the point I think it makes, let's see if we can find any common waypoints we can agree on.
  
  Do you disagree with any of that, so far?
  
  Then ...
  
  At the time of the "others" pictured, the U.S. administration(s) viewed Russia as a changed nation, a possibly a new ally. Remember Bush's 2001 comment; "I looked the man in the eye. I found him to be very straightforward and trustworthy. We had a very good dialogue. I was able to get a sense of his soul; a man deeply committed to his country and the best interests of his country."
  
  Then there was the Russian "reset;"
  
  "Vice President Joe Biden said Russia and the United States should press the “reset button on their relationship.” A month later, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton met in Geneva, where Clinton gave her counterpart a symbolic button they were to press together. Printed on the button was the word “reset” in both English and Russian."
  
  Now you know, I can't just leave out Pres. Obama's "hot Mic" incident;
  
  "On all these issues, but particularly missile defense, this, this can be solved, but it’s important for him to give me space," Obama was heard telling Medvedev, apparently referring to incoming Russian president Vladimir Putin.
  
  "Yeah, I understand," Medvedev replied.
  
  Obama then interjected, saying, "This is my last election. After my election, I have more flexibility."
  
  Or his public criticism of Romney's 'Russia is our No. 1 geopolitical foe' comment.
  
  Those points were only to illustrate that it seems that until 2016's election interference issue, those pictured all thought 'Putin was okay.' Even as their intelligence agencies, including Bush's, was telling them differently.
  
  Do you disagree with any of that?
  
  Plus, I would say that the pictured "others" were not simply being polite at "tea and crumpets" events. I am not sure which event each picture represents, so maybe you will disagree and declare them all to be just public postures of being polite.
  
  So, if my perception was that the meme shows all those "others" playing nice with Putin - while it can be documented he was continuously still being ex-KGB agent Putin, and their intelligence agencies told them so - during the times of those photos, then I think it did provide a pretty "sharp point" of illustrating a hypocrisy - within the context I have outlined.
  
  Without the clubs of "Putin's poodle, (or puppet), or Russian collusion, to smash the logic of my provided context - have I dug to China, or is there a newly understanding hand to pull me out of a shallow grave?
  
  GA
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  OK, GA, let’s have a look.....
  
  .” Also in that context was my perception that currently, the Left seems to be saying Putin is an evil ex-KGB operative that just cannot be trusted - ever, by any sane person”.
  
  Well, GA, he is. There are plenty of references that point to the fact that the Democratic process has been going backwards in Russia for the first time since the “Wall” has fallen. That is Putin and he is not your “bud”. With all the points of adversity between the U.S. and Russia on the international scene for so long, the Helsinki meeting was finding Trump accusing his own intelligence agencies to take Putin’s word about his denial of Russian government meddling in American political affairs. For being so long an adversary, no, I would not trust him like I would a Trudeau or May.
  
  The issue of the political interference in our election process reared its head in 2016. And correct me if I am wrong, but I recall Obama calling in ambassadors over accusation of unauthorized Russian interference. Did we have so contentious an issue before us, when earlier Presidents were dealing with Putin? Yes, I agree that interaction with Putin was ok, when there were no obvious international grievances between us. Trump, being accused and embroiled in this matter, compounds the situation in a way not true with Presidents or other prominent heads of state communicating with Putin in the past. Trump needs to be careful about what he says. His rash nature and subsequent poor judgment is another reason why I am not fond of him. So, yes, the bar is raised as to our relationship with Putin and how the President presents himself in the face of this “big picture”.
  
  Conversing with Putin is not the problem, what is said and divulged in the communication is. I expect any American President or State Department official to speak with one voice to an adversary like Russia.
  
  We have lived through detente and glasnost but we never dissembled before Russia during any of that, this is a first.
  
  It is a shallow grave, GA and I will lend you a hand out from it.
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Credence; Your context point is what is so salient here...Trump is dealing with the guy after his nation was called out by our intelligence agencies for interfering with our election. Add to that, all the evidence of Trump crony-hood with Russian's and the "witch hunt" and any right-minded President, or one who didn't want to look like he cared nothing about our democracy, could at least put on a show of being upset with Putin. That's why even Fox news had to call him out on this one.
  
  A hand up is better than a hand out. Credence, I'm not entirely sure which you just gave GA. His dancing is valiant in its effort though. I wasn't willing to give him the hand for spreading what I see as anti-American propaganda. but I'm glad you have such generosity in your soul, lol.
  
  Ultimately, this is all in good fun for me, as I don't take myself too seriously, and I'm about as far from easily offended as it gets...and I don't support Trump...go figure. I can dish it out, but I assure you I can also take it. I will walk back on points when I'm wrong...I just don't think I'm wrong too often...ha.
  
  See, I like strong leaders with strong opinions because I have strong opinions, which are based on facts, my values, and my love for America. Unfortunately, Trump is not that guy and some like to cover for him.
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Credence; Your context point is what is so salient here...Trump is dealing with the guy after his nation was called out by our intelligence agencies for interfering with our election. Add to that, all the evidence of Trump crony-hood with Russian's and the "witch hunt" and any right-minded President, or one who didn't want to look like he cared nothing about our democracy, could at least put on a show of being upset with Putin. That's why even Fox news had to call him out on this one.
  --------------
  Hi, Dan
  
  I have always said that Trump makes 90 percent of his own problems but instead blames the media and his own subordinates. So, if this is such a faut pas that even the Fox diverts it self from its usual loyalty, it gives one reason to pause.
  ---------------------------------------
  
  A hand up is better than a hand out. Credence, I'm not entirely sure which you just gave GA. His dancing is valiant in its effort though. I wasn't willing to give him the hand for spreading what I see as anti-American propaganda. but I'm glad you have such generosity in your soul, lol.
  
  We have fun here, I would be bored to death if I could not have a fencing match or two with my forum regulars.
  
  ------------------------
  
  Ultimately, this is all in good fun for me, as I don't take myself too seriously, and I'm about as far from easily offended as it gets...and I don't support Trump...go figure. I can dish it out, but I assure you I can also take it. I will walk back on points when I'm wrong...I just don't think I'm wrong too often...ha.
  
  See, I like strong leaders with strong opinions because I have strong opinions, which are based on facts, my values, and my love for America. Unfortunately, Trump is not that guy and some like to cover for him.
  
  I like strong leaders too, but discretion and when to apply it is part of strength. I value intelligence and deftness over a trumple and blunder style. Nobody can say that I do not have definite opinions over certain matters. I have to wonder if the next meeting between Putin and Trump in Washington will be another public relations disaster. Trump's handlers will need to have the "muzzle" close at hand.
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Well hell's bells hard sun, maybe it would help if it could be determined why we saw the meme as portraying such obviously different messages. And it might also help if I adopted your strong stance and bluntness.
  
  Regarding your description of the president's summit.public actions and words, I would probably agree with almost all your evaluations. If the publicly provided information we all have, and that is all that we have, is the only truth there is, then I don't see how anyone could defend it - I know I can't, I agree with you.
  
  But, is what we see, and how it is portrayed and explained to us, the whole picture? I strongly suspect it is, but am hoping against hope, (who could possibly want our country to be in the fix we appear to be in?), that what we think we are witnessing is really a real-life Fransico D'anconia portrayal. And I admit that hope has gotten slimmer and slimmer since I first adopted it when candidate Trump was elected Pres. Trump.
  
  Does that sound like a Trump defender to you? Does that sound like I would willingly lend a "... hand for spreading what I see as anti-American propaganda.?"
  
  Hopefully it does not, which then draws the question of why didn't I see the meme message as you did? I think it is because my first response to anything Trump-associated is not to bash and denigrate the man. (whether it appeared that he deserved it or not)
  
  I am confident that should you research this forum - since the time of his declaration as a candidate, to now, that I have never, (Ok, qualify that never with "intentionally"), defended, or criticized the man personally.
  
  Personal attacks and moral judgments, (no matter how logically correct they are, or seem to be), are double-edged swords - not something I want to risk handling publicly, (although I admit to making and holding such things privately), considering that I see myself as at least as imperfect, if not more so, than the rest of us humans.
  
  Like you, I try not to take myself too seriously either, but I do take defending, or eating, a stated opinion very seriously. Which is why I have offered this effort.
  
  Once again, does that sound like a Trump defender to you? Does that not seem to just beg the question of why I took away one message and you another, from the meme?
  
  I would be glad to continue, with the focus on that question, if any of the above seems rationally acceptable to you. If not, then there is no need for either of us to waste anymore time discussing it.
  
  GA
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  First, one of my former jobs has me so anti-propaganda filled (bad terminology I know) that as soon as I see such memes, I react with, "Why would someone spread this filth?"
  
  Also, you seemed to endorse this statement made a couple pages back: "This meme speaks to the lack of intelligence of all the Trump derangement today .
  Pretty simple GA ,but you know that too.." Looking at it again, it's a bit fuzzy as to whether you actually endorsed it, but it seems that way.
  
  I will go back and read through some of your comments to gain a better understanding as to your position on Trump. I think that's fair.
  
  I agree that making moral judgments is a slippery slope. However, I'm convinced that the fix America is in has everything to do with morality. I don't think you can separate politics from morals and values. This is why I venture into the subject...I think our situation is futile without reflecting upon our morals as individuals and a nation. I'm in a process of writing an American/Trump morality piece for Hubpages right now. If anyone reads it, then some people will likely get a bit offended.
  
  Am I a beacon of morality? Absolutely not. As I stated, I took money to help spread primarily, but not solely, right-wing propaganda all across the country. And, of course, there's my personal life. However, I understand basic right from wrong, and I think we all should. Trump is helping to flip those notions upside down. Besides, no one can say anything about me that I haven't already thought. No one, except maybe close family, can hurt my feelings by judging my actions, or any other way. Professionally, I have a motto of self-sufficiency that's different than what most define it as. So, I'm comfortable putting myself out there in such ways now and then.
  
  At any rate, I'm done discussing the meme and appreciate your response.
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, we can be done with this meme issue hard sun ... with just a little bit more clarification..
  
  If any of my comments gave the impression that I supported this statement: "This meme speaks to the lack of intelligence of all the Trump derangement today ", then I was very sloppy in my wording. I do not support that thought.
  
  Regarding the rest of your comment's "the fix America is in," and the morality involved, points, I agree with it all. I may have some degrees of difference, but they are minor compared to the overall picture.
  
  GA
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I get it. my wording has been misunderstood here as well. Maybe I need to slow down on the forums, but I work at the same time often. Double duty.
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Thanks Cred, I can feel the cool above ground breeze on my cheek. And to be clear, I am not defending Pres. Trump's apparent plan of action relative to Russia and Putin. I don't know anymore than the rest of you - which is only what the media portrays, and the logical assumptions that will be made from those portrayals.
  
  I agree with all you have said ... with one exception. Well maybe a semi-exception, because you qualified it with "obvious," which could easily mean, compared to today's environment, obvious to the general public.
  
  "Yes, I agree that interaction with Putin was ok, when there were no obvious international grievances between us."
  
  When I was looking around for those "accepting details" I posted, I continually found caveats that the administration folks discussed, particularly Bush and Hillary, (which by association also includes Obama), had almost completely different , (from the Putin may be OK thought), analysis from their intelligence agencies.
  
  So those other folks "playing nice" were not doing so out of naivety. From the various stories and incidents of Russian spy rings discovered in "W" Bush's and Obama's administrations, to the electronic intercepts of Russian communications, none of these folks could possibly have thought Putin was ready to be our "bud."
  
  That was the reason I saw the meme as I did, it had nothing to do with an opinion on Pres. Trump's actions, (or inaction), and everything to do with the appearance of hypocrisy from beating up on Pres. Trump for trying to make progress , (that is intended to be a charitable description), on the Russia front.
  
  Since I am almost out of that hole, I will say I thought the description of Putin's offer to "help" with the Mueller investigation as an "incredible offer" was also incredible.
  
  GA
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  "Yes, I agree that interaction with Putin was ok, when there were no obvious international grievances between us."
  -----
  I can't really speak to that and I am certain that much of the diplomacy between Putin/other Russian and Soviet leaders and American Presidents had a foundation of intuition and trust associated with it, not going with the analysis from their intelligence agencies. BUT did Trump have to broadcast that to Putin and the world, that his intelligence team was incompetent and that Putin's word was more valuable? The distinction I am making is that he could have avoided opening his mouth and publicly expressing his intuitive instincts, embarrassing his subordinates and the country, while giving Putin a free pass.
  
  -----------------------------------
  
  That was the reason I saw the meme as I did, it had nothing to do with an opinion on Pres. Trump's actions, (or inaction), and everything to do with the appearance of hypocrisy from beating up on Pres. Trump for trying to make progress , (that is intended to be a charitable description), on the Russia front.
  
  I don't want to criticize the President for making overtures toward Russia, all of his predecessors since 1945 had attempted to do the same, but you never show your opponent all of the cards in your deck. I don't trust Trump as to the motive and timing of his "summit" with Putin. If I were in as much trouble over this Russian collusion thing, the last thing I would need would to draw attention to it and myself with a meeting with Putin. I simply believe that there was another hidden agenda for Trump besides trying to shore up relations.
  --------------------------------------
  Since I am almost out of that hole, I will say I thought the description of Putin's offer to "help" with the Mueller investigation as an "incredible offer" was also incredible.
  
  If anyone would believe that, I have beachfront property in Colorado to sell.....
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  GA.... Keep it real
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  What do you mean by that hard sun? If I knew, I would respond instead of asking.
  
  GA
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  There is no valid point to the message thus it cannot be "pointed." I think you know this. What you're stating is similar to it's an alternative fact, but it sure is convincing. It doesn't take enlightened folk, or educated folk to understand right from wrong. My actions are not always morally superior, but I at least have a basic understanding of morality, as complicated as it is.
  
  "It is good to see your participation in this forum, but it would be a more valuable exchange if you could elevate your responses above the tactics of insult, condensation, and ill-informed moral judgments."
  
  I'm just calling it like I see it. It is good to see your participation, but I think it may be more valuable without the passive aggressive swipes and the resulting "poor me" tactic. I don't apologize for disagreeing with you, and I've made my opinion on the meme very clear.
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  promisemposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Meeting Putin and obeying Putin are two very different issues.
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
That meme tells an important story today , While the left and it's media suffers fried brains over Trump smiling at Putin , Think for a minute just how many things have been said in the last one hundred or so threads here about Trump and Putin and their "collusion "B. S. Most of you have wasted hours blabbing about your long winded opinions . Yet ,"A picture speaks a thousand of words "

It certainly doesn't fit leftist rhetoric of Trump 'collusion " but it speaks volumes about collusion by the Clintons , Obama , Bush , Shummer , Pelosi , Sanders , Stein , etc...........
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  All in a few well selected pics of foreign leaders smiling and shaking hands. From this you get collusion? WITCHHUNT..LOL
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  That's what I'm saying , Trump collusion is a witch hunt ! Looking for Collusion , look to Uranium one .
  Look at the Clinton foundation donations ?
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Um, no Clinton collusion is the witch hunt. Besides, is she President? Is she having meetings with Putin right now that affect our nation? Is she embarrassing our nation with outrageous behavior? Ask our intelligence agencies, our DOJ, most of Congress, etc. Oh yeah, they are all part of a Deep State conspiracy, as opposed to being the checks and balances that hold our government together. Very patriotic of you all to turn against the entire government, minus one failed realtor turned politician. We're supposed to believe Trump and only Trump approved news sources now..silly me. But, Clinton, but Obama, but, but.
  
  Trump himself can't even decide if the Russia investigation is a hoax. One day he misspoke and believes our intelligence agencies. The next day its all a hoax again. He's not sure what to do anymore cause he's running out of running space.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You mean IYHO, right ?
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  And you too, right?
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
Meme's can tell just as much of a "story " as a whole rant thread of an uninformed opinions, What blows the gaskets on the left ?
The left thinks they invented the tactic now used quite effectively against them , as usual .

Kind of a grabber when the right uses leftist tactics huh ?
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  In your humble opinion right? I think such tactics suck no matter who's using them. And yes the left does it as well.
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  The left invented dirty play , you forget or ignore , the right IS learning their uses . I can't wait until the governing right awakens and actually" returns fire ", it is Alinskyism that is burning in the streets , in our media and in our legislature .
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I just said the left does the same but I ignore or forget it I guess
  
  flying spaghetti monster
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You know , I don't know nor even care to know what that means but I'm about to come up with some likely names for my friends here , trust me , you won't like yours .
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You can't hurt my feelings no matter how hard you try. I'm not really calling you a name by the way, just commenting on nonsensical reactions
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Good then you won't mind in the future as I address just your political responses as this ?
  
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  ha ha..whatever you want, I truly do find that funny. Super Flying Spaghetti Monster
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  Credence2posted 4 years agoin reply to this
  You are not going to be satisfied with anything short of fascism and total tyranny, will you Horse?
  
  You want your sissyfied strong man, Trump, to rein in the press, the legislatures, etc.?
  
  So when it looks like it, smell like it, you call it what is........
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Credence , I know that you for one actually resent it that the right has learned to play the same dirty tricks as your party , evidenced by Trump , Fascism , tyranny ............and don't forget your usual favorite ?
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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I worked for an astrotufing lobbying firm. The VAST majority of the highest bidders were right wing causes. American's For Prosperity,, etc, etc. The right is better at these games and have been for a long time. That's a big reason why they have more elected officials in pace at both national and state levels. Dirty work it was.
  
  Bring on the Aesop's Fable...please
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago

Of course Trump has a love affair going with Putin , of course he does, of course Trump is a puppet of Putin , of course Trump is a puppet of Russia as in of any possibly of future trade agreements with them , of course Putin has some hidden knowledge about Trump that America just hasn't seen yet . With all of the Trump obstruction to date , with all of the Trump "dirt "revealed to date ,of course the media somehow just missed these blackmailing secrets.

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  hard sunposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  I love that book cover ahorseback. Excellent choice.
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  JAKE Earthshineposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  
  ahorseback is always good for a false comparison as are most republicans around here and elsewhere and his hatred of Hillary and a legitimate, patriotic American President like Obama will never be a valid legal defense of Bozo Trump when the tribunals begin: There is no valid legal defense for Bozo Trump's blatant crimes and they know it, so what's left? Bogus false comparisons between great Americans like Hillary and President Obama and an evil, mentally deranged, hate filled Russia Puppet named Donald Drumpf who will soon be shinning Big Bubba's shoes in prison or worse, if of course we are still a nation of laws::
  
  What he doesn't mention is the fact that no other legitimate leader in modern times ever committed treason in the very presence of Vladimir Putin on foreign soil as Traitor Trump did, and no other legitimate leader ever met with Vladimir Putin in private without counsel as he did: We still don't know what they discussed in secret but many of us have our suspicions:
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  ahorsebackposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  So , Why would Trump need council with him in a private meeting with Putin ? Or do you mean Liberal council to dig up more BS . bias against him ?
  
  "..........great Americans like Hillary and Obama ........"
  Oh I could write volumes and in time real journalists will about just how UNAmerican those two criminals really are . Their collective administrations and all of the media surrounding them .
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ahorsebackposted 4 years ago
To me , both your wordings are extremely clear , Writing at such lengths it becomes very clear after awhile just what true meanings there are behind and between the lines of those lengthy pieces .
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  GA Andersonposted 4 years agoin reply to this
  Damn it ahorseback! You hooked me, I have to respond,
  
  Yep, many times it is how what is not said, is said, that tells you what is really being said.
  
  GA
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Trump's own intelligence chief says he is wrong

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Trump's own intelligence chief says he is wrong

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