Here is a link to the story:
https://abcnews.go.com/US/oklahoma-scho … d=57194348
So, a 7th grade transgender girl uses the girl's bathroom (she was born a boy) and some parents of other students want her beaten, forcing the school to close down for a couple of days.
What is the responsibility of these parents when this child's body is found in a dumpster somewhere?
What is wrong with people?
The question is, can we go against nature and get away with it?
It really doesn't look like it.
We need to stop the nonsense.
If someone is born a boy or girl by accident, and the soul had chosen to be a boy or girl and the body process produced the opposite, we need to figure out why. What is causing this absurd problem/mistake?
God. That's not the question. The question is what's wrong with adults who would threaten the life and well-being of a 7th grader on social media instead of extending love and understanding.
I also like that your first reaction is basically blame the transgender person. She's the problem.
That article appears to support the idea that children should not be indulged in presenting as anything other than their biological gender. Which I agree with.
Children are impressionable. Sexual preference can easily be manipulated by first encounters and manipulation by adults at an early age. Considering the obvious problems within the trans community in regards to suicide rates it seems as if it could be considered child abuse to not attempt to protect your child's innocence and wait and see which side of the 80% the child falls within.
Tough subject. It would seem that, as a parent, one needs to do some research before creating an atmosphere for a child that might be having some sexuality issues, that indulges the child. I don't know how you do that, exactly, but it's hard.
It would be nice if society was understanding in some of these difficulties and not accusatory to the point of harassment.
Again, I've seen both sides. A three-year-old being treated as a girl by her mother, who I thought was a bit odd. I'm pretty damn liberal and even I thought maybe that wasn't the best course. A child that young isn't even capable of understanding what's going on.
I've also seen adults where it's clear their biological gender just isn't who they are. We've had gay people and transgender people since the beginning of time, so it's a natural occurrence. We should be tolerant and understanding.
We should be tolerant and understanding. Across the board. All sides. But pushing transgender ideas onto small children doesn't represent tolerance and understanding for the vast majority of parents.
And a lot of people believe in gay conversion therapy. Just not sure anyone has a good idea what to do here and falling on the side of tolerance is my preferred option.
If tolerance involves a biological boy going into the biological girls bathroom in primary schools I call that intolerance.
I think in primary school, that is probably not a good idea for anyone.
It's not a good idea in middle school or high school either, when kids take gym class and must shower and change together afterward. Boys and girls are separated when naked or in various states of undress for good reason.
Probably not. Perhaps these are treated like accommodations on a case-by-case basis. While helping the transgender person transition is important, it's probably best to have a designated place for them to change, for their comfort as well as the comfort of others.
How difficult is it for the left to accept that their wants do not equate to reality? A large percentage of these children are not transgender.
You aren't helping a child. You are creating an environment to help feed a problem. Think about it. If most kids outgrow it, why do you think over 40% of transgenders attempt suicide?
Honestly, I was a consummate tomboy as a child. If I'd had a couple of ignorant and selfish liberal parents and lived in this day, had they indulged my tomboy proclivities, I'd be in the boy's bathroom. I wasn't gay. I did not have gender dysphoria. I just liked what boy's got to do. The things they got away with.
The better course would let kids be kids. Allow for different personalities. The hard part comes when children don't accept those differences. So foolish parents think it's better to pretend their child is something they are not. Parent's inability to let kids grow up without labels is what drives part of the problem. I think the height of ignorance is telling a biological boy that his interest in things traditionally seen as feminine makes him a girl. And vice versa.
Difficult. And it's not a general conspiracy to let boys into girls bathrooms at will. It's an effort to figure out how to be decent to a very small segment of people and help them when there are real instances of transgenderism, which I have witnessed many times. The bathroom issue though, is overblown. It's a red herring.
You have a valid point. In order to go through a sex change operation in this country, the person is required to live as the other sex for a year. If that standard were applied to children - it would, of course, seem insane on almost any level for a parent to authorize a child to get a sex change operation. We should just be trying to help these children when it's possible.
And yes, liberals err on the wrong side all the time. I'm witness to it quite often. However, when conservatives are calling for gays to be beaten, burned alive, converted; etc. it's easy to err on the other side of that. Now it's transgender people who should be burned, beaten, killed, eliminated, ostracized. Before that it was black people. (And I don't necessarily mean conservative in the political sense - but people unwilling to change) I just tend to err on the other side of that, but there's likely a middle ground that will make nobody happy, which is okay. Again, tough issue.
I'm generally an Atheist and have problems with Atheists who demand accommodations for all sorts of things. People can still celebrate Christmas and wish you a Merry Christmas. I was forced to sing Christian hymns in public school. Probably not okay. There are just lines we're trying to find, but being decent and understanding is a good litmus test.
The suicide rate - you think being persecuted and made to feel like an outcast and worthless, teased and bullied, threatened... might have something to do with it?
Of course persecution and feelings of being outcast would drive one to suicidal thoughts. But, you ignore the obvious, or maybe you've forgotten your childhood. Kids are brutal toward those who are different. Kids are bullies. Kids are mean. I'm not certain leaving a child who is different alone in the bathroom with the other sex is wise, for any of the children.
I feel for kids who may feel caught in the wrong body, but I also feel for parents who don't want their little girls exposed to little boy's body parts. And vice versa. And I also feel for children who are sorely abused by their parents, in an effort to prove their open-mindedness.
People are no longer required to live as the opposite sex in order to access sex-change surgeries and opposite-sex hormones.
With ICATH (Informed Consent for Access to Transgender Healthcare), patients can access cross-sex hormones in as little as one doctor visit. Surgery can be scheduled within a visit or two, as well. The surgery is likely a few months out, though, if not several months or more. But it can be scheduled within a visit or two.
With ICATH, there is no psychotherapy required to access hormones or sex-change surgeries, and no health diagnostics are required, as long as the patient (or their parents, if the patient is under 18) sign the informed consent form, acknowledging they know the risks of the treatments they are undergoing.
And we can probably expect it to get even easier to change sex in the future.
People may choose to live as male or female, in the same way they choose to move house now. Won't that be amazing!
I am not a fan of ICATH when it comes to children and young adults. I think psychotherapy should be required, as well as medical tests to make sure the person is physically healthy.
I'd also like to see the age requirement raised to 25 for these treatments, as this is typically the age when the brain has matured. There are 18-year-old autistic persons who become fixated on the idea that transition will solve all their life's problems who are being transitioned through ICATH, without any sort of therapist-lead exploration first. There are young females who have been raped or otherwise sexually abused, and/or have PTSD from their abuse, who are being transitioned to male with zero exploration of the possibility that their abuse may be at the root of their wish to be male.
There are 13-year-old girls who are undergoing double mastectomies in order to appear male, and genital surgeries being performed on boys age 17, with pediatric gender doctor Johanna Olson-Kennedy advocating that the age be lowered to 16. Kids as young as 12 are being put on opposite-sex hormones and will become permanently sterilized if they were on blockers before hormones. I don't think kids should be sterilized at this young age. They are unable to make an informed decision as to whether or not they will want children when they are 25 or 30 or 35.
I'd like to see surgery and hormone access slowed down for people age 24 and under, especially teens.
That's a fair requirement. Don't expect trans activists or the left to support any of it.
I consider myself left-leaning and I don't see a real problem with smartandfun's suggestions either. While I'm sure some of my views are considered extreme by both the left and the right, I really think there are left wing extremists and right wing extremists hijacking our politics. There is a big middle-of-the-road segment that gets overlooked. It's just not as attention attracting to explain nuances within views.
I also hate that there's this dichotomy of, if you believe this way on say the Affordable Care Act and abortion, then you must think a certain way on gun rights and taxes.
Apologies, I don't want to take the discussion too far off track, but just wanted to respond to the generic "the left" response. I think we all fall into this sometimes. I know I have referred to "the right" as though anyone who votes Republican must think a certain way about an issue.
I'm willing to listen to the scientists on this and err on the side of data, much like global warming. I believe in science.
For the benefit of the person, pretty extensive evaluation should be a rule.
Be careful with online sources.
The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is not the same as the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), which is the main professional body for Pediatricians in the US.
The American College of Pediatricians is "a small and politically-motivated group"(1).
It is ". . . a socially conservative advocacy group of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals in the United States"(2).
It was formed as " . . . a protest against the AAP's support for adoption by gay couples. The group's membership as of 2016 is estimated at 500 members"(3)
Here is a statement about transgender children from the American Academy of Pediatrics (formed in 1930 with 67,000 members)(4):
And here is an extract from a statement by the American Medical Association:
(1) https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ameri … nder-kids/
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ … ite_note-1
(5) https://www.aap.org/en-us/about-the-aap … dults.aspx
(6) https://wire.ama-assn.org/ama-news/ama- … r-patients
Threats to an individual are never acceptable. Even when toward a transgender whose first act, according to reports, was to stand on the toilet to look over the top at girls using the restroom in the next stall. Maybe 'she' was just thrilled to be among 'her' own kind, at long last. But, if you think that doesn't create animosity you've never raised a young girl.
As much as I feel for parents wanting to protect young children whoever threatens another person with physical harm is outside of the laws, in my opinion. And to threaten a young person is much worse. If they are concerned they should remove their children from what they perceive as a dangerous environment.
As a people, we should work to ensure children do not have to endure such environments.
Hmm. Which children? Since it is estimated that 75-80% of all children who experience gender dysphoria outgrow it, is it in the child's best interest to entertain the behavior? Is it in the best interests of other children to have to accommodate it?
No child should be threatened, or bullied. Other than that, I'm not certain what your point is.
" If they are concerned they should remove their children from what they perceive as a dangerous environment."
My point is exactly what I said. We should work toward better than forcing parents to remove children from environments. As a society, we should work to ensure children have the best environment possible. Otherwise society fails them. It's in the best interest for children to be in an environment that allows them to be who they want to be without facing threats. Its that simple.
Whether they "outgrow" it or not is irrelevant. I know a few people who "outgrew" their heterosexuality. It's not my business whether a child's behavior should be "entertained." But, from my experience, not "entertaining" such behavior generally amounts to bullying and threatening.
Of course, this is all just my opinion, and you can have yours as well.
Be who they want to be? A lot of little girls want to be princesses. Should we make other kids be their ladies in waiting? Force a boy to play prince charming? Should everyone bow since, after all, we should let them be who they want.
How realistic is your statement? How would you resolve the problem of kids wanting to go to the bathroom with their own sex, some wanting to go with the opposite sex because they wish they were that sex, kids who are overly sexualized who want to pretend to be a different sex so they see more of the opposite sex, and kids who wish they weren't kids at all. Should we create different bathrooms for kids who swear they are from a different planet? Seriously. How do you propose creating an environment where all kids wants and needs are accommodated?
Much of this is created by society creating beliefs. If 80% of kids grow out of this then it is a belief. Not a reality. For 80% of those kids. So, if 4% of kids are estimated to have gender dysphoria as kids and 80% grow out of it then less than 1% of kids suffer the condition. That is not a high enough percentage to force over 99% to deal with the solutions presented, thus far. Not for children.
Perhaps, the better course would be to help children understand it's ok to be who they are. That the word boy doesn't tie anyone to certain dress, or behavior. Same for girls. And stop putting ideas in their little heads. Ideas that can create more angst than those ideas are worth.
"How do you propose creating an environment where all kids wants and needs are accommodated?"
I never claimed to have all the answers here, and I know you don't have all the answers. My point, as I've stated a few times now, is simply that we need to strive for better than forcing parents to remove their kids from dangerous environments. I certainly never said anything about putting ideas into children's heads.
I'm not a school administrator. It's not my job to figure these things out. And I don't think you're doing a great job at that either to be honest. Tell the kids they're flawed is what I'm reading from you. However, if someone is telling kids they need to be gay or transsexual or something I don't agree with that either. And, I agree kids are over-sexualized today.
So, is there something wrong with stating we need to foster good environments for our children as opposed to throwing in the towel and stating we should just remove the children? I think forcing them to run sends all the wrong messages and it's not where our society will lead IMO, no matter what you or I think.
The children will lead the future and it's not likely to be what either of us would choose.
Where do you read kids are flawed in my statement? Because 80% grow out of gender dysphoria? That's kids. They grow out of a lot of things. Because 20% of those kids don't grow out of it? That's kids, too. And my suggestion to remove a child was for the parent of the heterosexual child. I know I'd remove my kid if I felt they were being forced to be exposed to ideas too old for their ken.
But, let's be honest. Of course kids are flawed. They're human.
Well yeah, kids are flawed. Semantics. My entire point is simple, it would be better to foster an environment where children don't have to be removed out of fear. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "too old for their ken" but you can, and should, do what you wish with your own children.
Some people are truly born the wrong gender.
Thats a real problem. If it can be prevented, we should do all we can to do find the cause: Research, testing, studying case studies regarding parental influences such as environment and diet.
Whatever it takes.
If this is occurring, and it seems to be occurring more and more frequently, its a genetic mistake, like three legged frogs which are found in polluted water; probably caused by something in the environment..
It needs to be corrected.
Meanwhile we need to be polite and respectful and teach children to be the same.
We can steer kids away from being the opposite of what they were born as, by explaining that it is an anomaly and that it is much better, in the long run, to be what they were born as.
Obviously transgenders who go to public schools need their own restrooms. Thats all there is to it.
Get out your wallets, taxpayers.
I agree with your first assessment.
I happen to think the devil got a bad wrap though, so, maybe devil's playground is not such a bad thing. That God in the bible seems awful vengeful. Lucifer just may be the victim of fake news.
It's foolish and dangerous statements like that which help me remember the left is too ignorant to hold our future in its grasp.
Really. Why so serious? You're one of those elitist conservatives talking about ignorant leftists that I hear about? It's best not to take yourself so seriously sometimes. Are you going to attempt to round up the posse and try to burn me at the stake? Freedom of and from religion.
Humor is a gift. And, God likes those who insult others best I guess. That's not quite what I learned at the Baptist church I went to as a tike.
Imagine All the People
LOL. Me burning you at the stake? I have no idea where they came from, but if it makes you happy to believe that, that's your choice. But, for everything the idea of satan stands for, those who espouse those ideals as you seem to be supporting by your comments, I consider them against all that is good.
For goodness sake. You admit some people are born a different gender than they are, then go off about the devil's playground and homosexuality being an abomination.
People have a right to be happy. With who they are. Being a kid is tough, without added angst. My only reservation is that children should be shielded from this until they are old enough to understand. They should not be pawns in the left's game of attempting to ignore biology.
It's a natural occurrence that there are things that deviate from the norm. That doesn't make the norm the correct way. There are normal flowers, then there flowers with extra petals. There are people born with extra chromosomes.
The fact is, deviation for the norm is... normal.
I agree that if there is a scientific way to fix deviations that deviate to far from the norm, we should attempt to fix them.
Down Syndrome for one. That's an easier fix. How you identify that somebody is going to end up transgender is another story, but I imagine if you could fix it in utero so the person didn't suffer a lifetime of struggle, that would be a good thing. However, you get into some dangerous waters there.
Should we fix homosexuality en utero?
Could I get a link on the assertion that 80% of kids grow out of gender dysphoria?
Interesting responses. This forum wasn't intended to be about the 7th grader, but about the parents doing the threatening, which is okay.
Everyone is mostly focusing on the transgender issue and not, so much, the bullying issue, from the parents.
I think every poster has stated that bullying, in any form, is unacceptable and threats of violence are illegal.
You're right. Perhaps I'm fixated on Kathryn's apparent knee-jerk response to blame the girl (and I say "apparent") and go right to the issue of whether she should exist at all.
I know a family with a three year old boy. They let him visit the couple next door in their apartment building. The couple had a four year old daughter. These adults encouraged the three year old boy to be like their daughter. They put dresses on him and encouraged him to dance around like a girl.
I think encouraging this unnatural behavior (for a boy) is confusing to the three year old's natural sense of being a boy. Its not right.
I witnessed the attitude of the parents. They seemed gleeful with such craziness.
The three year old's family soon moved out of the apartment building, but I hope it was before too much damage was done to the boy's psyche. (They let him play over there way too much.)
Wow. Yeah, that's no good. And, I do think the far leftists can contribute to this type of behavior. The pendulum swings too far either way socially and bad things result IMO. People on both sides of the spectrum leave sense at the door once the tide gets rolling.
I've seen both sides. A toddler encouraged to be the opposite sex (any parent will tell you that toddlers explore all sorts of non-traditional gender roles, but it doesn't mean they're transgender) and many people who were obviously born as the wrong sex or genuinely have different chromosomes than their physical genders.
Trying to be understanding and treat people decently is the human thing to do. Threatening a 7th grader should be met with arrest.
I had written a reply yesterday, but I deleted it when I realized that I was thinking of the wrong word. This child, according to the link you posted, is "transgender," not "transsexual." First your question, What's wrong with these people who reacted? They are afraid. They fear the things they don't understand and they want to protect their children, however, that does not give them the right to go off on the child who is the root cause of the problem. They should be sternly warned by law enforcement to leave this child alone. If they don't heed the warning, prosecution would be warranted.
Now the problem itself. Warning, I'm going to be graphic here. The article did not say the child had stood on a toilet and peeked over the bathroom stalls. It said that the girls thought he/she/it was peeking under the stalls at them. The transgender child said that was a misunderstanding. He/she/it said he has to sit in that position in order "to be able to pee in the commode like a girl." Herein lies the problem and why I'm not ready to call the child a "her." If this child is still carrying the physical genitalia of a male, HE should be using the restroom designed for males. Gay men use them, so why should this child be privileged to not have to use one when he sits on the toilet in a position to make the legitimate girls uncomfortable?
If the situation were reversed and a physical girl insisted on using the boy's restroom because she "felt like a guy", the school definitely would be in an uproar. Can you picture the boy's watching a girl attempt to use a male unrinal? Answer I've seen before: Well, that would be different because men's rooms are not as private as ladies' rooms. Really! When a guy has to sit with his head in a position that puts his head underneath the privacy stall and makes the females uncomfortable or frightens them because he could catch a glimpse of them. No s*** Sherlock!
The whole nation has indecency laws, with the power given to each individual state to write its own, which express what is termed "community standards." The law recognizes that there are standards differing in Bible-Belt America from those in San Francisco or New York, and those standards historically have been upheld by the courts. They were mainly written to cover pornography, but I believe they may have to weigh in at some point in cases like these.
I am all for civil liberties, but in this case I believe it is the girls whose civil liberties are being violated. As Mr. Spock said, "The needs of the many outweighs the needs of the one."
This all points to the reality that "children's " brains aren't even fully developed until well into their twenties , Their personalities , mentalities , ideologies and sexualities cannot then be fully developed until then as well ?
Makes me think of the beauty pagents of minor children , How much of these issues are adult nurtured , influenced and promoted-supported to support adult issues ? What kid knows anything about anything at all in fact ?
How conveniently obscure social reengineering strategists are in ignoring that the suicide rate among trans people is 25 % higher +or- than ordinary citizenry , Even as high as 45% of transgenders.
That is direct evidence of a mental problem .
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