POOR People in the United States

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   gmwilliamsposted 5 years ago

   
   Poor people LOVE, even REVEL in being poor & even impoverished.  They don't want to advance themselves educationally & socioeconomically.  Instead of improving themselves, they rationalize being poor, even impoverished.   They even proclaim that there will be always poor people.   
   
   
   It seems that the poor & impoverished in America don't want to improve themselves one iota.  What they refuse to acknowledge that it is their mindset that enables their impoverishment.   They act irresponsibly & irrationally.  They also make decisions that continue their poverty.  They don't believe in long-term plans & considering the ramifications of their negative actions.  Are people poor in the United States because of their lack of accountability & responsibility?   Are people poor in the United States because they WANT TO BE?  It seems that way to me-with all the opportunities in the United States, there is NO EXCUSE to be poor to impoverished.  People don't have to poor if they don't want to be.  Poor people don't want to better themselves; however, they gladly criticize the middle, upper middle, & upper classes.  Poor people HATE & ENVY those who succeed & will denigrate successful people.   Poor people want others to be......LIKE THEM......mired in poverty & struggle.  Your thoughts?

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      AMFredenburgposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      To quote Groucho Marx, that's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

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         lovetherainposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         +1

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            hard sunposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            +2--talk about generalizing and not understanding individual circumstances...we all have our own stories and most of us contribute in ways, or have contributed in ways, that many people will never understand. Besides, the happiest people are always the winners.

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      Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

      That is a pretty broad generalization, have you anything to support it beyond your "opinion"?
      
      All of this supports why the Right hates poor people so much...

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      1. 82

         gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         I am not the right.  I am a Liberal Democrat, Credence2.   I think that there is an overglorification of poor people in this society.  Stop deifying poor people as wholesome, true types.  That premise springs from the flawed ideology that poverty is oh so noble.   Look at poor people, they are primitive, illogical, grasping, envious, & always want to fight.  They are against progress, are backwards, & have a crab in the barrel mentality.  They aren't unsuccessful & don't want others to be successful.  They tear people down.
         
         Poor children can be classified as hoodrats or hoodlums.  They attack children who are socioeconomically better off.  They shake those same children for lunch money.  They do poor in school & are against improving themselves.  They value street smarts over education.  Any neighborhood poor people live in, they TEAR down.  The poor live at a primitive, animal like status.  I am telling you what the POOR are REALLY like.  You & ahorseback refuse to acknowledge this but it is TRUE about the POOR. They destroy anything they ENCOUNTER.   That is why people don't want them around.   The poor are to be avoided like the plaque they are!

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         1. 82

            gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            Poor people LOVE being poor.  If they DIDN'T, they WOULDN'T be poor nor see poverty as a badge of honor.  Yes, poor people see being poor as a badge of honor.   They BRAG about being poor & raising their brood in poverty.  These are the facts.  Middle, upper middle, & upper class people constantly strive to improve themselves but NEVER the poor. They are happy being mired into poverty.  These are the FACTS.  Accept these facts.

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            ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            GM, Yours is the most bias opinion including  the generalizing characteristics of all poor people I have ever read  , Yet I must give you credit for admitting you are a liberal , that alone pretty much explains it all .
            Thank you for clarifying .
            
            I now understand .

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            Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

            I am not the right.  I am a Liberal Democrat, Credence2.   I think that there is an overglorification of poor people in this society
            
            Utter nonsense, Grace. Only rightwingers are desparate  to stereotype and pigeonhole. Why do you think the poor are overglorified? Have you ever been poor, would you use these denigrating adjectives to describe yourself or anyone down on their luck? There are more of THOSE "dog whistles" showing up in your dialogue than most would like to admit, but I am not fooled and can pick up on the frequency all the same.
            
            Horse and I are on opposite sides of the ideological spectrum, yet we both say that this is  bullsh*t, Grace. What has started you on this rant? If you have enough views and attitudes that align with those found among the Right and rightwingers, I am certainly not going to see you as a "liberal democrat", quite the contrary.
            
            Hoodlums and hood Rats? It is a fascist view and a rigid one for describing people that is unwarranted, and there is certainly nothing"liberal" about it.

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               gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               Credence2, I AM A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT!  I am totally correct regarding my synopsis about the poor in America!  I refuse to back down!  YES I SAID IT & STICKING TO WHAT I HAVE STATED!

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                  lovetherainposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  GM, I am curios as to what you consider to be "poor".

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                     gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                     Poor is living with scant basics & nothing else, if that.  Poor is living in a squalid, run down neighborhood.   Poor is not having access to health & medical care.  Poor is consuming non-nutritious low quality food.  Poor is worrying about paying the most basic bills.  Poor is living from paycheck to paycheck.  Poor is being 1/2 to 1 paycheck away from homelessness.  Poor is living in tenements or public housing projects.

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                        Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                        You would be surprised to find many working class or even middle class people who are just as vulnerable and while it may not be obvious, are surviving on the margins. Only rich people don't have to 'worry' about paying bills for basic subsistence expenses. Anyone could have their paycheck pulled away at any time. Most people can't say that they would have saved enough to avoid disaster. You don't have to be poor to be in that category.
                        
                        Because this is a CAPITALIST system, stark variations between rich and poor are unavoidable as part of the system. When has there ever been a time in America when there were not the poor among us?
                        
                        What about the Poor of the rural South or West Virginia, no public housing or tenement housing there? Or are you trying to say that the 'disgusting' undeserving poor are found solely in urban populations? So, what conclusion can I draw from this as to WHO you are attacking?
                        
                        We have to remember that what is 'poor' from the perspective of one, may be considered sufficient from the view of another. Adequate food, shelter and clothing may be all most of us really need and it is the commercial nature of our society that constantly tell us that we need more.......

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                        1. 82

                           gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                           Poor is synonymous with lower income.  Lower income includes the underclass,  regular low income, & working class.  There are some who include lower middle class in the lower class.  In some people's estimation there is no distinct differences between the lower middle class & lower income.    However sociologist indicate that lower income consists of the underclass, lower income proper, & working class which is considered the highest of the lower income bracket.

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                              Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                              There are many people who work more than one job a day, yet still are in poverty, how does your sociological observations categorize them? How much responsibility does the System assume for so much of this? I have yet to hear you touch on any of this.

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                  Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  You don't have to shout.
                  
                  Your 'synopsis' is just YoUR opinion. But, the are other opinions that can't be proven by you to be any less valid.

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      Miebakagh57posted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Hi, gmwilliiams, I had not seen you commented on my earlier contributions to this topic. I think you disapproved of it. I took it to the international level in my comments.
      
      Americans with all the many poor people are no exception in the whole world. Being poor is not a curse. It is like the positive and negative anodes on a battery terminal. The poor man is to be held by the rich, however minimal. He also has to contribute some help to the rich.
      
      Now, if all men were rich on the same level, can you have an office cleaner? Who is going to do that job? Your fellow rich man?
      
      In your armed forces, it is said that the private (a poor soldier) is the genuine VIP. The generals respected him for services he is employed to render. Prove me wrong if I am not correct.
      
      What have you got to do with the poor in American? Exported them to Iran or Iraq? Why not Nigeria, my country. Those poor impoverish English men and women that were sent packing many years ago from Britain build America. Think of it well. Thank you.

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   ahorsebackposted 5 years ago

   GM, You are looking at one smaller element of poverty and judging an entire mass and class of people by your skewed image .  Is it your glasses ?    Or , as I believe , is it some weird life experience that you encountered all on your own ?  Perhaps you were mugged by some guy in walmart jeans or someone with a tattoo stiffed you in mowing your grass ? Whatever the causation  - You prove nothing with your prejudiced and lengthy columns denigrating the poor. And In that sense , we can all see very ,very clearly the continuing flaws of the intellectual mind in general .

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      gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      -10000000000000000000000000000000000000

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3. 66

   shanmarieposted 5 years ago

   Are you describing a "ghetto mentality" or ALL poor people? There's a huge difference. As in one actually exists and the other is a stereo-typed broad generalization. And that is and will always be my opinion on the matter. Why? Well, because I have personally known people who have broken the cycle of poverty within their own families. One of them was a professor I had in college who taught her class how to help inspire children they may one day be teaching who come from impoverished families to do the same thing she did - rise above and do better. Now if a college professor doesn't say well educated despite poverty I don't know what does.

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   ahorsebackposted 5 years ago

   GM forgets , quite conveniently , just how important the "Poor " really are in America , They built the very foundation that IS America , The bricklayers , bridgebuilders ,  farmers , carpenters and railroaders ,  the factory workers , ..........A one hundred year old census occupation category lists the poor in America very well , Housekeepers ,  farmer , woodworker , builder , mason ...........
   The first census in the US ?   1790 i believe .
   
   GM has a thing for the "poor ", an intellectual's elitist judgement "thing "  !   My mother used to tell us as kids when discussing people who sounded like they had the attitude that they  were "better than any of  us "; .........." They have forgotten where there bread was buttered and by whom "  meaning that some people forget who really does all the work to get them them where they are today  .

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      gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      It's the MIDDLE CLASS who is the BACKBONE of America.   The poor are just...…….PARASITES & RUINERS.  Look at any poor neighborhood & one will clearly see the squalor & pathologies.   It is the middle class who oils America, don't you forget it!

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5. 68

   Miebakagh57posted 5 years ago

   Hi, ahorseback, I agreed with you. gmwilliams has a horrific mentality. He also dislikes the poor. I have some hours ago, posted that the poor build America. They are the VIP. I think he ignored my opinion and comes up shaking for a solution. I wrote back that he is part of that solution. I am wondering whether he ever responds to our submissions. We should get him into a corner, and the box him into a dustbin.
   
   Thank God for the poor Americans. They are the machines of the country. they move the economy. Their voting power decides who is who in politics, for politicians will not just come and run into the Senate. The very poor gmwillians gyp and deride will determine.
   
   You try to tell us he is "an intellectual elitist?" Don't you see his mind is warped and waste? Has no human touch and feel. Thank you.

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      ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Well that last paragraph is fairly typical of the liberal intellectual is it not ?  Claim the poor for adoption for the election and then drop them like hot potatoes afterwards . Illegal immigrants , minorities , and any cause for the party , Yet , look at the majority of liberal run cities in America , Baltimore ,Chicago , La. Trenton , Philly , Minneapolis -St Paul , New Orleans , NYC .......Liberals have run these cities and so minorities into the ground for a century .
      
      "Vote for us , We are your saviours "
      
      GM , Has actually and continually  produced many columns about how Democrats need , in other words a "Final Solution " for the poor in America .   At least in GM.'s neighborhood , You will notice that that absolute honesty is ignored by other liberals ?    Interesting huh?    I think the more that I  read GM's posts the more I understand how someone like Adolf Hitler came to be .

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         hard sunposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         GM is liberal? I don't know just wanting confirmation from GM.
         
         While I already stated how I feel about the generalizing rant that started this, I do see a sliver of the logic. There is a segment of lower income individuals, in my neighborhood anyway, that do have what I call a "taker" mentality. They will take from anyone and everyone, family, etc., and give next to nothing, or nothing back. It does get frustrating living around such individuals. No, they aren't liberal, as most of whom I speak don't vote at all. They could not care less about politics.
         
         Having said this, I try hard not to judge someone whom I have no clue what their situation is. They may appear to be only takers at first, to be revealed they give back in ways not at first seen. And, as pointed out by others here, so much of America still rides on the back of the poor who work so hard, in so many different ways, every day. And, there are those who do make it out of the ranks of poverty due to this hard work....just not as many as there should be.

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            ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            A" sliver"  of the poor is correct , GM is covering that "sliver" of poor with a hug paint brush  however ,   And GM has self identified as a liberal had you read all these posts .
            
            Of course there are those who "give nothing back " but they reside in ALL income brackets and classes of people  not just with the poor , In fact there is as much negativity in the upper classes as is with the poorer ones .

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            gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

            THANK YOU, FINALLY SOMEONE WITH SENSE!   You are echoing my words exactly!  That is what I have been saying.  People CHOOSE to be poor.  They choose to be mired in poverty.   People don't have to be poor in America if they DON'T want TO BE.

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               ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               Here , Here is a wider than normal paint brush GM !

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               hard sunposted 5 years agoin reply to this

               No, not exactly. I do understand your point. However, I stated there is a "sliver" of these individuals. There are many people who don't choose to be poor.
               
               We all live around good people who are in poverty. There are so many different reasons as to why they are lower income. Once you get down, it's hard to get back up, and there are many genuinely disabled individuals, mentally and physically who simply cannot be gainfully employed. I could go on forever as to how hard it is to get back up once you're caught in a cycle of poverty. I just think giving up is not the answer.
               
               Issues are almost never cut and dry/black and white/nuances and circumstances are difficult to understand and varying...GM, though this is very rare, I must agree with ahorseback...too wide a paintbrush.

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                  gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                  Not addressing those who are disabled or challenged physically, mentally, & emotionally.  Those people need help & SHOULD be HELPED.  Talking about able-bodied, reasonably intelligent people...…….

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         gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

         -1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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      gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      -1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000

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   ahorsebackposted 5 years ago

   GM,    We are all entitled to an opinion yet when one reads your profile one can see exactly where the Caste system of thought comes from ,  As with many Indian [India ] immigrants one can discern these Caste's attitude towards all others .
   
   That systemic Caste judging  of people based on income levels  and occupations shows in your threads . Yet yours  is one lower form of judging , You continually broadstroke all poor into the same categorical way ,   Maybe it's your choice of wording  or maybe it is as simple as how I'm defining it but  it is one heck of a judgement you make , especially given how proudly you proclaim  your many degree's and past career qualifications  . Qualifications ?  Either way ,  you are incredibly and wickedly biased .

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7. 66

   shanmarieposted 5 years ago

   For those who want inspiration from someone who grew up poor, watch this video. He talks about giving back. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teUd1GB8kgU

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      ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      Hi Shanmarie !...........This could not have been stated better than in this video .Hey , that guys my new  hero ! It puts all of our opinions here to rest doesn't it ?  It's Exactly the point that I am trying to make .
      
      The minute that we "color "poor people as being a burden or as being useless in our society , we write off and entire group of down to earth leaders .

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   ahorsebackposted 5 years ago

   Why don't we just create the GMWilliams Doctrine for Final Solution to all Poverty Foundation , maybe by a few trains and large acreage ?

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      gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

      That ISN'T nice, Ahorseback.   Please use inductive & deductive logic here.  There are those in America who view the poor/impoverished as excess baggage.  They see the poor/impoverished as drains on American society.  They see major societal problems caused by poor/impoverished people.  Many in middle class America see the poor/impoverished eating up their tax dollars.
      
      There are those who see an EXTREME solution to the problem of the poor/impoverished.  More prisons are being built to contain them.  More will be conscripted into the armed forces to be used as fodder.   In the future as lower skilled, lower level blue & white collar jobs  be phased out or automated, the poor will become a permanent underclass.   Societies always find SOLUTIONS to deal w/its underclass in one way......OR ANOTHER, be it  HUMANE or INHUMANE!
      
      I want poverty in America to be TOTALLY ELIMINATED through relevant education & jobs.  I also want poor/impoverished children to realize that they are in charge of their lives & to educate themselves into having in demand jobs for the future.   Lastly, family planning must be taught to poor/impoverished people.   Poor/impoverished people must be taught the myriad benefits of birth control & family planning.    Poor/impoverished people have to be educated in the fact that poverty is a disease & that they DON'T have to accept poverty as a lifestyle choice.

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         Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

         Are we talking about a Final Solution for the poor and impoverished?
         
         There are plenty of poor not there because of some of inherent deficit as you imply. This society has yet to show interest in the means of alleviating poverty and want, low cost education, relevant job training and tax incentives to companies willing to take in these folks as new hires.
         
         The idea that anyone can avoid being poor here is a red herring and I think that you know that.

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9. 82

   gmwilliamsposted 5 years ago

   Poor/poverty isn't only a physical aspect.  It is a consciousness, mentality, mindset, outlook, philosophy, & purview.   Poor/impoverished people have a FAR DIFFERENT mindset than those of the middle & upper classes.  Poor/impoverished people are passive in their dealings & feelings towards life.  They accept things, feeling that there isn't much they can do otherwise.  Besides acceptance, they have a blind fatality towards life.  They feel that they can't do anything to improve their lot in life. 
   
   Poor/impoverished people live within a very narrow purview.   They see anything outside their poor/impoverished environment as totally suspect.  Poor/impoverished people view education & achievement as foreign.  They furthermore find education & achievement as a waste of time for poor/impoverished people.   They inculcate their children in these principles.  In poor/impoverished communities, brutishness is prized & valued while being educated is viewed as a weakness.
   
   In poor/impoverished communities, smart, intellectual children are considered weak.  It is the brutish or street savvy children who are revered, even deified.   In poor/impoverished communities, it is the survival of the most brutish.  The poor/impoverished deride education & achievement AS NOT FOR THEM but for the more affluent socioeconomic classes.  To the poor/impoverished, it is primitive, animalistic survival.  The poor/impoverished are ruled by the lower human needs, not the higher human needs.
   
   Poor/impoverished people can't conceive the future.  All they are concerned is about the present-the IMMEDIATE present.   The culture of poverty is defined as poor/impoverished people having so few options that the present is all they have.  This is why the poor/impoverished believe in immediate gratification.  They act without thinking about the future consequences of their actions.  The poor/impoverished don't plan nor strategize because they view such things as worthless in their lives.
   

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      Credence2posted 5 years agoin reply to this

      You refer to these poor as if they are a distinct and separate branch of man, and not Homo sapiens  at all. So, what burr has lodged itself in your saddle?
      
      Your observations are regarding the inner city culture of African-American poor? As it was mentioned earlier, being poor cannot be just assigned with a broad brush.

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10. 68

    Miebakagh57posted 5 years ago

    Hi, credence2, I do not know about the American system here. But I can safely quest that these a casual or menial workers just working to keep body and soul together. In my country Nigeria, a mechanic doubles as a taxi driver if mechanical works are not in demand. But the mechanic seems well of than a director in government ministries and departments. Thank you.

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11. 68

    Miebakagh57posted 5 years ago

    Hi, gmwilliams, you said the poor/impoverished are excessive and a drain on America society (resources: money, land, health system, and et cetere/). But America usually exports excessive second-hand cars, trunks, clothes, and the long list to Nigeria and other African countries. Why not export them out? My reasoning may not line up with your preferences. Since you do not target the question to me, to my good friend, horseback.  Your face? Is not nice either Ah ah ah! Thank you.

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    ahorsebackposted 5 years ago

    GM , If we are to use Inductive / deductive logic , How about this ; Included on your train to the final solution we include the negative aspects of the upper and elite class of Americans too ?     You know just like the Jews in Hitler's tribal elitism  blond haired , blue eyed , tall straight and narrow of wealth .
    
    
    Certainly we should include those of wealth that they don't require good character , morality or honesty , Those who spend their days poolside drinking the latest flute glasses of daiquiri , fine wines and the best chemicals known to the neighbor pharmacists  ?  All they do is waste our precious resources anyway .    They live off the backs of the poor and middle class workers .
    
    Certainly in your judging of the poor you can find room on the same
    trains for the useless "well off "?  They don't even have jobs like you or I do , their Lear Jets pollute , their yachts leak oil into the pristine blue seas ,  they build useless mansions eating up precious resources . Some of them even create more like them breeding more wealth and entitlement into OUR world .
    
    
    
    
    Yes GM , You have done it ,you alone  eliminated the greatest scourge known to America , the poverty is gone , no longer the homeless to trip over , the addicted soul of entitlement ,  Together we can rid this neighborhood , the city ,  country , the entire world of the scourge of poor people.
    

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       Miebakagh57posted 5 years agoin reply to this

       Hi, ahorseback, good fellow,I agreed with your reasoning.  Thanks for ever reminding me of what adolf Hitler midset held for his Germans, and againt the Jews and non-Ayans. Persons as gmwilliams and his like are terrific.They have not learn a thing from history,and they will become one like Adolf Hitler. Have a nicetime,and thank you.

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          ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

          Thank you , Do not be afraid to jump in and explain to GM that the" poor "contribute more 'good 'to this world than do all other classes combined !  In America we have a class problem ,  everyone looks to the rich and "intellectual "celebrity to define and find solutions to our social and political problems when they create  the greatest and most real societal problems  themselves .
          I hope all is well over there in Nigeria my friend .

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             Miebakagh57posted 5 years agoin reply to this

             Hi, ahorseback, thanks for responding so soon. I will do as you said in a form of a reminder because I had said such a thing to him, and I think he ignored it. I will do so again.
             
             The Nigerian situation is getting a little even. But in some state, that is not the case. The Federal government of Muhamadu Buhari had no solution yet. But it is hoped that come February 2019 they will be a change of government due to much bloodshed, hunger, and inept attitude of the ruling party. Thank you.

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             gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

             
             
             
             

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                ahorsebackposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                GM, Take a minute , stand back and reread your rhetorical hatred of poverty , no actually not poverty but the poor themselves  , you are grouping them all into the one basket .   F- ?   
                
                I guess it's no wonder that even" the usual "liberals are avoiding these mindlessly directed  hate threads that you've blasted all over the forum pages .   Seriously , I read nothing that comes this close to the written copying of Nazism and Hitler's final solutions .
                
                In a way too , Its very interesting that the liberals avoiding these threads aren't speaking out against them , But hey ,  Look to the neighborhoods especially in liberal run inner cities like your own home ,  the poor[ your enemy ]   are already gathered for your trains .
                
                One doesn;t have to dig too deeply to see how liberals DO treat the minorities that they[you] so love to envelope into your voter roles .   Round them up GM , those trains are expensive .

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                   gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                   What you are stating is such hyperbole.   So UNREAL, don't you think?! Hmmm.....…. The poor have to WANT to improve themselves & to take RESPONSIBILITY for their lives.  Isn't that what Conservatives want?  It is Conservatives who strongly contend that the poor are drains on society.  They WANT poor people to improve themselves educationally & socioeconomically.  They are the ones against useless social & welfare programs.  They strongly portend that it is such programs which cause the poor in America to use incentive.
                   
                   
                   It is Liberals who are for the poor.  They are the ones who encourage social & welfare programs.  They feel that it isn't enough money for such programs.  The average Liberal is a STRONG ADVOCATE for the poor.  A subset of Liberals advocate a more equal income distribution, even basic income.   It is the Conservative who feel the way I do & I am in no way a Conservative.  In fact, I am a Liberal but a discerning one. 
                   
                   I believe that it is time for the poor to DO for themselves & to improve themselves in terms of education & socioeconomics.  No one in America has to be poor to impoverished if they don't want to be.  It is Conservatives who are increasingly advocating drastic means to solve the problems of poverty in America.  I remember Newt Gingrich, a noted Conservative, stated that poor people have no work ethic & that they have to taught a work ethic. 
                   
                   Ahorseback, this is a GREAT discourse.  I am tired & going to bed.
                   
                   

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                      Miebakagh57posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                      Hi, gm, are you are liberal, and a discerning one? And how come you talk against the very poor that need your help, your wisdom and your discerning mind? Then make it REAL to them. Thanks.

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                         gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                         They MADE their beds & they have to PULL themselves up by THEIR OWN bootstraps.  God help those who HELP themselves.

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                Miebakagh57posted 5 years agoin reply to this

                With love from,
                Miebakagh.
                
                
                
                
                
                

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                   gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

                   
                   
                   Oh, thank you...…………...

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       gmwilliamsposted 5 years agoin reply to this

       

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