Conservatives: Dump Trump and maybe then we can talk

1. 79

   Credence2posted 3 years ago

   An interesting assessment of conservatism in this present era.
   
   https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/24/opin … icans.html
   
   As conservatives are the protectors of wealth, power and privilege in this society, I am always going to be fundamentally and naturally opposed to your tenets and values. But, by getting rid of Trump, you at least bring some credibility to your side.
   
   Trump and Trumpism must be totally expunged from the conservative lexicon if you want the our side to take you seriously.

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      wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Do you really think that "dumping Trump" will turn conservatives into the far left radicals that you are comfortable with?
      
      I assure you, it will not.

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         Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         That is not what I said, you conservatives have been telling me that there is a difference between you and the Republican Party.
         
         Do you really consider Trump representative of the Republican Party and conservatives in general?

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      Ken Burgessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Trump's time is over, America will be moving on shortly.
      
      The years ahead are going to be tough for most Americans, a great many changes are to come. 
      
      Biden is not the one who is going to lead us through the tough times, he is about to lead us into them, it will be after Biden that we find our footing in the new world that is developing.
      
      Covid has initiated global change... and we are far closer to the beginning than we are the end of those changes.

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         Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         The current years have already been tough, and I still say that removal of Trump is a good thing no matter how it otherwise appears. I will take my chances with Biden and my progressive values and instincts into the future.

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            crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            Sure, until Republicans nominate Alex Jones as their next President. Too bad Jim Jones isn't still alive. Maybe they'd go with that Jones.

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               Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Perhaps, but what the GOP nominates is not the same as a competitive and viable candidate.
               
               If the GOP does not want to be relegated to a nutcase, fringe party, it needs to select its candidates more carefully.
               
               They remain vulnerable as long as we can all still vote, and the demographics are against them.

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                  crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Cred, you would have thought that would have happened with Trump's nomination. But instead, Republicans leaned into it. They're scared. Trump represents the preservation of white power, white privilege, white establishment. There's no question.
                  
                  What Republicans may be missing is the swing to blue in a lot of states. Sure, Democrats didn't win some of those states, but what folks on the ground are saying is that they're moving steadily in that direction. Georgia went. Next is North Carolina. Then Texas. Then Iowa.
                  
                  However, I believe it's a tenuous hold if Democrats don't screw their heads on and make sure they're the party of the working person. I can't believe they stuck with Pelosi in the House. Have they learned nothing? We need new blood. New ideas. They don't learn.
                  
                  Which is why, in four years, President Alex Jones isn't so far-fetched.

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                     Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     I was hoping, Crank, that Trump's election was an aberration and would not be a pattern. But, 2016 has shown that I need to allow for the unanticipated.
                     
                     When I look at how many votes that was cast for him in the election, what I think of as fruitcake seem to be mainstream for far too many. The reality of the "preservation" you speak of is the ugly truth regarding the true nature of our society as to why Trump did so well.
                     
                     As their constituency narrows, the GOP will become all the more desperate to the control the electorate rather than moderate their ideas. I see it coming, but short of out and out disenfranchisement which will not stand, how do they win?
                     
                     If the Democrats cling to its foundations which is better represented by its populist wing and avoid becoming just another more palatable version of the GOP, we can be THAT consistently winning party. 
                     
                     It will be important that Biden makes headway and succeeds in a big way, that is going to mean a Democrat controlled Senate, otherwise his agenda will never see the light of day.

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                        wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                        "As their constituency narrows, the GOP will become all the more desperate to the control the electorate rather than moderate their ideas."
                        
                        LOL  Of the two parties, it is the Democrats that do far more "controlling of the electorate".  While many of the GOP would control via religion, that is opposed by the Dems enough that no real "control" is possible. 
                        
                        Democrats, on the other hand, control via the purse strings and promises of "free" money taken from those evil rich that they have demonized so well.  This is a much more effective method and it shows through the controls Dem's manage to instill.

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                           Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

                           How does Democrats control the electorate? Please don't bring up that bile of "Bread and Circuses" again?
                           
                           What type of tax code do we have where a multibillionaire pays 750 in taxes, while keeping his precious golden toilet bowl all the same?
                           
                           I and the voters have a right to cast a ballot based on our opinions, regardless of how much you disagree with them or the reasoning of such voters.
                           
                           But disenfranchisement or tossing away ballots that reflect those choices is a damn site lower...

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                              wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                              You got it - Democrats do whatever they can to tie the electorate to the largesse of free money from government.  From putting food on their table to putting a roof over that table to building a new water treatment for the city, Democrats hand out the cash.  And the chain attached to that free money is to vote Democrat to keep it coming in.  If you think those on welfare aren't wearing chains, heavy ones, tying them to government money you haven't looked into it at all.
                              
                              We have a tax code designed by government (emphatically including Democrats) that consistently slip in tax breaks for projects they want to see in an effort to hide the cost of those projects.
                              
                              As a voter, I have the same right and wouldn't have it any other way.

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                                 Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 So, 75 million voters that voted for Biden have your myopic view of Democrats? That is a lot of people just looking for free cellphones and other handouts......
                                 
                                 Rubbish!

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                                 crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                 I agree with Wilderness on his main point, to a certain degree. The Democrats need to separate themselves from the connection to the federal government as a solution to everything because it's simply not. I doubt we can have free health care and free college.
                                 
                                 However, government can be helpful to people, especially now as the economy shifts to more remote work and industries like coal modernize and people lose their jobs. The government can help train people for new careers and develop a system to transition people.
                                 
                                 The government's help in most instances needs to be temporary.
                                 
                                 The place where I disagree with Wilderness is in his accusation that it's Democrats. It's just as much Republicans. Look at the federal budgets and how much the red states get in their own handouts.

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                                    wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                    I will disagree only in that it is not a part of the core goal, or dogma, of Republicans, for Republicans are not, in general, in favor of ever greater government.  That is the line of the Democrats.
                                    
                                    Absolutely government can be a huge help...but that is NOT what is being done now.  There is almost no help available, particularly for those that willing to return to productive citizenry.  The "system" is set up to actively, and strongly, discourage any attempt to improve the financial status of the poor.  It is also designed to force those with temporary problems (temporary job loss, disability from accident, etc.) to become poor before receiving help...whereupon they are then chained to the government with chains that are very hard to break free of.

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                                       crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                       In word, the Republicans are for smaller government. In deed, they love the free money and love to hand it out. And if you look at Republican leadership over the past 40 years, the size of the deficit has grown under Republican leadership.

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                                          wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                          "In word, the Republicans are for smaller government. In deed, they love the free money and love to hand it out."
                                          
                                          These two statements seem incompatible to me.  You can't have a smaller government while handing out more money.  But I do agree that Republicans are as bad, or perhaps worse, at pork barrel spending.  That's a whole different kettle from chaining people to welfare, though.

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                                       crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                                       Wilderness, it's just a different form of welfare. Farm bill, corporate tax structures, bankruptcy laws; etc.
                                       
                                       I mean, it's just a different form of money distribution. Democrats move the tax revenue of the federal government into the hands of working class people while Republicans move the tax revenue of the federal government into the hands of wealthy people.
                                       
                                       As I stated, I think the Democrats would do well to push self-sufficiency and design government programs toward helping people in that direction rather than programs that create dependency. I mean, Dems could make real inroads into conservative thinking this way. If you're moving a person from dependency on the government into self-sufficiency and economic production, you're making a real difference. That they don't articulate "welfare" in this way burns me.

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         Tim Truzy info4uposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         It's interesting: according to a poll before the election: Democrats felt racial issues were the most important topic to address while Republicans said it was the economy. Both groups ranked the Covid crisis two or three. That's where we as a nation should work. I suspect (no evidence has emerged) Virg. and GA might have been lost by Trump because of the way he handled Charlotesville and the shooting of that man who was jogging in GA. Also, I read thousands of dairy farms disappeared in Wisc. since Trump took office, and the auto industry in MI has taken a beating. Biden must look at these things, and the Rep. party should be thinking deeply about these issues.

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      GA Andersonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      As conservatives are the protectors of wealth, power and privilege in this society,"
      
      Of course, you are welcome to hold that perspective, but I think it is wrong and will naturally taint your perspective about all conservative issues.
      
      As a self-described Conservative, I would, (and do), argue against the unexamined preservation  of wealth, and the assumption of privilege, but, honestly earned wealth is not a bad thing, and privilege that comes from achievement is also not a bad thing.
      
      If your view of things does not include these honest effort considerations, then it appears to me your comments are just a cry of envy against those that achieve versus those that don't.
      
      It reminds me of the comments in another thread that the sense of individual responsibility and accomplishment are a detriment of being white and a racist incrimination of the white culture.
      
      Come on bud, who wouldn't want to protect their wealth and accomplishments?
      
      GA

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         gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Anyone worth his/her salt wants to protect their assets & accomplishments.  Why shouldn't they, especially if they are self-made.   I applaud anyone who has the intelligence/fortitude to beyond their original socioeconomic & educational circumstances. That is the definition of America-that one isn't determined by nor slated to be in one's socioeconomic nor educational class of origin.   
         
         Since the 1960s, America has become more of a nanny state.  There are those who strongly assert the woe is me mindset & purview.  They blame their dire circumstances on others instead of assessing their situation & taking the ultimate responsibility.  Oh no, such an exercise would be too revealing to them.  That would be too much hard work- oh no, oh no.  It is much easier to blame society, the man than to blame themselves.
         
         This is analogous to the C &/or D student hating the A student for the latter's acumen instead of studying to earn a good grade.   There are so many haters around Gus.  The gist is responsibility.  Unless one is disabled physically, mentally, emotionally, or intellectually, one is responsible for the circumstances h/she is in.

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            crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            Sorry, but "since the 1960s" is code for "black people have been taking too much from society". Go ask Lee Atwater's ghost.

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               wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               *shrug*  They have been taking too much from society - in the context given that means too much in the way of welfare programs, not in rights.
               
               Of course, you forgot to mention that all the other races are doing the same thing, and that does put a much different face on your comment for it takes it out of the field of racism and into a completely different category.

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                  crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                  Go research Lee Atwater and how he changed the language of racism to reflect new Republican views.

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                     wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

                     Sounds very much like what is being done now, just from the other side of the street.  Either way it is despicable - anyone, of any race, that works define a person by their race should be set aside in their own living hell somewhere and let stew in their own racist juices.  Just my opinion.

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         Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, GA, honestly earned wealth is not a bad thing. It is ok that that wealth is reflected in one being able to buy the larger box of corn flakes, but that is as much of an advantage that they should have. The principle of the government is that in the eyes of the law, we are all the same. Neither our law nor government is for sale. I want that influence from oligarchs curbed and minimized.
         
         We all know that the current wealth situation in this country is not one based solely on hard work verses otherwise. We can put aside the Horatio Alger primers and deal with this society the way it really works. Those wealthy and malevolent influences write the tax code, corrupt the politician and rig the system to their advantage. I want that curbed, as well.
         
         The idea that individual responsibility and accomplishment being a racist incrimination of white culture is nonsense probably generated from the Right as a source of further antagonism. I want structural barriers to equal opportunity eliminated, not pining for equal outcomes. But I always believed "the man" would be intimidated an actual level playing field. If you obtain your advantages by exploiting others, why give up that ground voluntarily?
         
         Protect your wealth and accomplishments but not at my expense.

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            PrettyPantherposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            Excellent response. Your earned wealth allows you to buy a mansion, a yacht, and golden toilets. It should not allow you to buy your way out of your criminal behavior, buy your way into tax breaks, or buy political  influence greater than anyone  else.

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               Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

               Thanks, Panther, for helping me demonstrate that now we are cooking  with gas....

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               GA Andersonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

               I can agree with that thought. As long as it is tied to all humans and not just one labeled group.
               
               GA

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            GA Andersonposted 3 years agoin reply to this

            "The idea that individual responsibility and accomplishment being a racist incrimination of white culture is nonsense probably generated from the Right as a source of further antagonism."
            
            Now there is a bit of nonsense. It's just a Rightwing ploy. Sheesh.
            
            GA

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   Live to Learnposted 3 years ago

   You want to throw out ultimatums, feel free.
   
   I love the left.  They didn't get their way last time around and we had 4 years of tantrums, hate speech, riots and looting,  suppression of free speech; all wrapped around bs lies the sheep ate up... throw on top of that some unanswered questions about this election.  And now, you think anyone is begging you to tell us what we need to do for the radicals to take us seriously?
   
   Don't hold your breath. I stopped taking the left seriously when I realized we are dealing with a bunch of emotionally stunted cry babies.

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   1. 83

      gmwilliamsposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      +100000000000

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      Credence2posted 3 years agoin reply to this

      That is ok, you got a right to your opinion but so do I. And it looks like mine has ruled the day in this last election cycle.

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      crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      And yet, the biggest cry baby coward America has ever seen is in the White House, whimpering and hiding. The strongest people are good winners and good losers. You think Obama liked that Trump won? Look how Obama treated Trump and helped with the transition. You think Bush liked that Obama won? Yet he was magnanimous despite the repudiation of his administration. In those times, you put country above party and above person. Except if you're Trump.
      
      And as he transitions out of power, he's trying to take America down with him by subverting every standard of decency we have. What he's doing is anti-American, anti-Democratic, and pretty close to evil. To put your personal, petty needs ahead of America's needs, while people are dying of COVID, is despicable.

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      crankaliciousposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      Those of you who constantly claim "bs" when it comes to Democrats investigation of Trump need to read the bipartisan intelligence report:
      
      https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/pre … sia-report
      
      There was nothing "bs" about any of it. When you claim "bs", it just means that you're brainwashed by the conspiratorial right-wing media.

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