Greater Idaho? When it comes to Rightwinger be prepared for the absurd

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  1. Credence2 profile image82
    Credence2posted 13 months ago

    A little background, folks

    https://www.opb.org/article/2020/11/16/ … -now-what/

    Have a look at that revised Greater Idaho, is that not ridiculous?

    I say to those dispossessed types, if you don't like Oregon and its politics, just move to Idaho!!

    We had such a move in Colorado with the sod busters and cowboys complaining about being outnumbered by the residents of Denver and Boulder counties. I say, tough, move to Kansas or Utah. The whole idea was long ago flushed down the toilet where it belonged.

    What if Austin decided to create a separate duchy in defiance of an overwhelmingly Republican Texas?

    Or, there was talk a few years ago of creating a separate Illinois to accommodate the conservatives downstate. How ridiculous.

    There is a tendency for the Right, Conservatives and Republicans to see this kind of solution as viable. I never have seen such initiatives from the left, I wonder why?

    The Right relishes in minority rule and you are afraid of being outnumbered. I say to that too bad, go be fruitful and multiply.

    We can't go about balkanizing the United States because a few rightwingers have a wild hair.....

    This sort of stuff has not happened since the Civil War and will not happen again.

    I have said my peace, your thoughts please....

    1. Sharlee01 profile image83
      Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      I say to those dispossessed types if you don't like Oregon and its politics, just move to Idaho!!"   I 100% agree

      "There is a tendency for the Right, Conservatives, and Republicans to see this kind of solution as viable. I never have seen such initiatives from the left, I wonder why?"

      I think conservatives have come to the point that they recognize there is no middle ground any longer. And are pretty much just "over it".  So, perhaps true separation has become an option many conservatives would consider. This could be due to the current left-wing ideologies. These ideologies are just not acceptable to true conservatives, and yes I would think most would be willing to accept a true division than live with the ideologies that do not support their values.   Conservatives being very steadfast to their ideals would not have any form of unrealistic ideologies shoved down their throats. 

      A few months ago I would have agreed that balkanization would not be a solution.
      However, we have a country split in half, and in my view, this mess is not fixable.

      This is America the last time I looked. I am not looking to change democracy for a left-wing utopia. I was surprised to see the words Civil War in your comment.  I am not as positive as you that we could not see an uprising. Lot's of angry citizens, and a president that has done all he can to pit one against the other.  We are coming to a  boiling point. So, maybe division and moving boundaries are a way to go.   It could provide a great solution. Better than a Civil War I would think.

      1. peoplepower73 profile image90
        peoplepower73posted 13 months agoin reply to this

        Sharlee:

        I watched Fareed Zakaria's show Sunday night.  It's about how the GOP has become radicalized by it's own internal efforts. To sum this up very simply, it boils down to one thing.  The reason democrats are elected as presidents is because the GOP says one thing to its base and and the base believes what they are saying, but when they get into power, they don't fulfill what they have told their base. Hence, the vote swings toward the democrats.

        That's how Biden got elected.  You may not like Biden, but I see people becoming fed up with a former president and his base that will not accept the fact that they lost election fair and square. "Trump is so great, that the only way he could lose is if the election was stolen from him."...What a sad state of affairs that this country has come to this point. 

        In fact, the GOP is doing everything they can to suppress the democrats from voting the next time around. They are doing this under the guise of  preventing voter fraud that has been proven to be statistically insignificant when in comes to changing the outcome of an election.

        https://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2021 … a-special/

        1. Ken Burgess profile image87
          Ken Burgessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          Let me correct your statement.

          "I watched MSM Corporate Approved Propaganda last night"

          That propaganda seems to have informed you that the GOP has become radicalized.  And that the Republicans (not the Democrats of course, they always do as they promise unless they are stopped by those terrible Republicans) lie to their base and do not do what they say they will do when they get into power.

          Except of course, that Trump did attempt to do everything he said he would do, accomplished a bit of it, and was blocked by Congress (whether it was the Wall or revoking the ACA) from doing anything else.

          His Presidency is one very large example that counters your statement.

          But you go ahead and keep swallowing that propaganda down whole, it makes you a good Democrat.

          1. peoplepower73 profile image90
            peoplepower73posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Ken:  Unless you watched the show, we can just chalk up your statements as strictly your opinion.

        2. Sharlee01 profile image83
          Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          Well before Trump, I can somewhat agree that Republicans, as well as Democrats, promise the moon, and one finds out quickly their moon was cream cheese.  In my view Trump lept many of his promises, in fact, it was hard to keep up with all he did.

          Biden was elected due many American's just hated him.  Very simple, and it showed me how very easy it was for the media to control a narrative. I am very disappointed in a society that seems very unintelligent. My gosh to vote for a man that has such a negative history, and is clearly not suitable for the job. He actually was never suited to be a senator. One only needs to look into his poor job performance while he was in the senate.

          In regards to our last election, the Democrats clearly tried to take advantage of the pandemic to what they thought would be to their advantage. I could write a book on their attempts to manipulate the system. However, something good has resulted ---  many states are revamping their voting laws to make sure in upcoming elections fruad will not be as attractive. ( I do not feel widespread fraud occurred).

          Funny how Democrats all of a sudden see some in their party just are not equipt or smart enough to get to the polls, and not smart enough to hydrate themselves. LOL

          Her in Michigan our laws are being worked on, and I trust will be revamped to keep people honest when casting a vote.

          In regards to the Republican party becoming more radical. I agree, and it is refreshing to see them show some bite.

          As I said many conservatives are well over putting up with liberal ideologues and are very much ready to push back. I am looking for representatives that do not make promises they can't keep.

          Biden has made so many flighty promises well knowing none of his policies will see the light of day. I have good faith that the Senate will cut all his bills off at the knees.  You must know Biden well knows his agenda is dead in the water. No matter what propaganda is fed up, you must at some point in your gut know he knew he was lying as he made all his progressive promises. He knew as the words left his mouth.

        3. abwilliams profile image69
          abwilliamsposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          “The reason democrats are elected as presidents is because the GOP says one thing to its base and and the base believes what they are saying, but when they get into power, they don't fulfill what they have told their base. Hence, the vote swings toward the democrats.”

          Hmmm...and I here I thought it was the promise of free stuff and a lot of help from their friends in media, academia, Hollywood,  big tech and woke corporations!

          1. Credence2 profile image82
            Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            And from just about everybody else too, except for the mesmerized Trumpbots..

            1. abwilliams profile image69
              abwilliamsposted 13 months agoin reply to this

              "A mesmerized trumpbot"....okay. Obviously, you haven't read much from me.

              1. Credence2 profile image82
                Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                Ok, perhaps, I need to read more.

          2. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            What was left unsaid is that Democrats fight tooth and toenail against anything that will actually improve the nation for everyone, whereupon the GOP, unsurprisingly, fail and the pendulum swings back in favor of free things.  Helped, of course, by media, academia, Hollywood and "woke" corporations.

            1. Ken Burgess profile image87
              Ken Burgessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

              What is left unsaid is that both parties serve the same masters.

              International Corporations and Banking and Finance Firms.

              That simple, the rest is window dressing and fodder for people to fight one another over.  As Rome burns the mob fights one another over who has more rights to the scraps.

              This weekend the big debate (on non MSM channels) is comparing Army ads of America compared to Russia and China.

              I think they make a good barometer for where China is headed and where America is headed.  One is on the rise, one is in fast decline and the Ads tell the story as to why quite well.

              Attached is a review of the Ads done if you are interested (good start point is one minute in):
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C1ID9xAps4

              1. Credence2 profile image82
                Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                The ads are just the ads, Ken. I don't have equal access to the scraps and the goodies on the table, then nobody will. America is not China or Russia, the world of the past that you seem to prefer, is simply not going to happen. No one is willing to unjustiably subordinate themselves today. Who is prepared to go to war against China?

                You are right about one thing, both parties are serving the same masters, it is just that the Republicans are more comfortable with the concept and it is why I loathe the party and its values so much.

                1. wilderness profile image95
                  wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  And yet...it was the Republicans of the country that declared that "business as usual" in Washington, catering to those masters, was unacceptable. Whether the declaration was successful is rather irrelevant as Democrats went right back to the same old thing, right?

                2. Ken Burgess profile image87
                  Ken Burgessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Perhaps, or perhaps they are a reflection of what the nations represent and what they are moving toward.

              2. abwilliams profile image69
                abwilliamsposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                Sorry Ken, I don't believe for a second that Donald Trump and Joe Biden serve the same masters.

                1. Ken Burgess profile image87
                  Ken Burgessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Trump was an aberration, which is why he was villainized throughout the MSM as well as DC... it is why there were a record number of Republicans that left office in Congress in 2018 allowing for a Democrat take-over... it is why Democrat Governors went full-tilt lock-down and were willing to destroy their States if need be, while blaming it all on Trump.

                  Whether you like Trump or loathed him, he was NOT part of the Establishment, he was a rogue entity that had almost no support within DC or without.  Other than the people who voted for him.

                  And the truth is, the people, what they want, doesn't really matter in todays world of propaganda, misinformation and weaponization of "free speech"... the more you speak contrary thoughts to the accepted "norm" the more you will be silenced, blocked, defunded or banned.

                  Doubt the legitimacy of the last election?

                  Go ahead and speak out about what you believe, see how you are marginalized, bring up evidence or proof, and you will be silenced totally.

                  And the same goes for any belief or any "facts" that you may have regarding any topic.  Be it marriage, sex, race, politics, foreign affairs.

                  Newspeak the fictional language of Oceania, a totalitarian superstate that is the setting of dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four, by George Orwell.

                  We are nearly there.

                  1. abwilliams profile image69
                    abwilliamsposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                    That's my point, Trump (the current face of the Republican Party) is not subservient to the many masters. I am not counting RINOs in this equation, they've made their bed with their choices and they are as beholden as Biden and pretty much the entire Dem Party. There's a lot of new blood, much more conservative, in the Republican Party AND in the voting public! As a result, the Republican Party will gain control of the House and Senate in 2022.

            2. Credence2 profile image82
              Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              Like I told you before, your concept of what is "good for the nation" and mine or others are two different things. You cannot justify yourself as the ultimate authority or judge on the subject. The voters will decide what that is and isn't, right?

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                No, the voters won't decide what is good for the country and what is not.

                Time will, and I don't see the country improving from the massive giveaways of the liberals.  I don't see it improving by opening the southern border.  I don't see it improving with egregious regulations on business.  I don't see it improving by taking from one to give to another.  I don't see it improving by acting as the world's policeman.

                Instead I see our freedom diminish every year.  I see our standard of living stagnating rather than improving.  I see our very culture changing to match that of foreign culture.  I see much of what built this country falling by the wayside over time.

                There ARE improvements, yes, and some originated from liberals.  Decreasing racism and discrimination for instance.  But overall, we are going downhill, not up.

                How about you?  Outside of falling racism (currently going up with anti-Semitism) do you see the country improving?  Are we more or less self sufficient as a nation or as individuals?  Is the family growing stronger or disintegrating?  Is real income rising?  Is our basic infrastructure failing or growing stronger?

                1. Credence2 profile image82
                  Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  This is a good question, Wilderness. I'll get back to you with an answer.

        4. Credence2 profile image82
          Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          I checked out your link, I am most interested and will tune in, thanks...

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            LOL  Biden was elected due to an unrelenting effort, 4 years long, to demonize Trump coupled with efforts to cancel/deny everything he tried to do.  With the single biggest reason being those 4 years of demonizing - with academia and MSM fighting alongside of them the truth doesn't stand much of a chance, and went the way of the dodo bird.

            1. Credence2 profile image82
              Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              People elected Biden because they were dissatisfied with Trump and his policies. Yes, the Dems and liberals resisted him, did you expect anything less? What did the Republicans do during Obama's tenure and what are they doing now?

              Honest Abe said that you can't fool all of the people all of the time....
              As if your side and tainted right wing media outlets are the paragon of truth?

      2. Credence2 profile image82
        Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

        The civil war reference involved the last time a state was divided 1861, West Virginia from Virginia, no reference to any sort of anticipated future conflict.

        I have had to live in a right winged regime under Trump for four years, I did not hear liberals ready to  physically divide the country into mincemeat when they did not get their way.

        The only true division solutions are that conservatives move away, because it is one man one vote and under those conditions majority rules. There were a lot of ex pats in Panama when I was there in 2014, most of them said they left the US because of Obama.

        We can't Balkanize the country solely on the desire of a relatively small population of malcontents.

        Thanks for weighing in.....

        1. wilderness profile image95
          wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          There is a difference between living in a right wing state and being unhappy with it, and living in a right wing state and watching as a tiny section of the state gains control over everyone else and demands that the entire state join them in their far left hell.

          Such as has happened in Oregon, with 466 square miles of Multnomah county controlling the other 98 thousand square miles.  Thank God the liberal rioting was pretty much contained in that one county and did not move to the rest of the state.

          1. Credence2 profile image82
            Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            What is it with you folks? We don't count the number of sagebrush but the numbers of voters. Conservatives irritate me to no end with this idea that 6 counties with 10,000 people are going to have the influence of 1 or 2 with over 2 million people.

            The state is the state, Wilderness. Where is this situation anywhere in the country not true and what is your solution that would not be an attack on democracy itself, as that is the right-winger's way?

        2. Ken Burgess profile image87
          Ken Burgessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

          Over 70 million people voted for Trump, "official" numbers, not considering any of the "conspiracy" theories about computers that switched or deleted or just didn't count votes or any other "concerns" mentioned regarding that election.

          Is that what you consider a "relatively small population of malcontents"?

          1. Credence2 profile image82
            Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Over 70 million people voted for Trump, well, so?

            Over 78 million people voted for Biden. Conservative whining is most annoying, the Democrats lost the 2000 election by a handful of votes and I did not hear conservatives talking about how liberals were going to react....

        3. Sharlee01 profile image83
          Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          I think when it comes to half the country being very dissatisfied with the status quo we have a problem. We also do have a growing problem with Conservatives moving further right and digging in for a fight.

          Conservatives that may have realized the time are here to stand up to radical left ideology. Not sure how to put this --- Liberals borrow fads, are easily moved by groupthink, and are satisfied to gamble on change. thinking new could work, but not actually considering what the outcome could be. ... Conservatives, like to stay with what has worked and built on it, using tools that have served them well.

          In my view, as the next four years pass many will come to realize Biden offered much of nothing, and in no respect kept any of his promises. Biden well knows his bills will be shot down in Congress.    Whereas Trump kept many of his promises and fought very hard to make a difference for the people... All the people.

          At this point, Biden has failed on all accounts in my book. He is totally drownding.  He just traded his basement for the White House.  He is going down so quickly.

          1. abwilliams profile image69
            abwilliamsposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Amen Sharlee, "stay with what works and build on it." A firm foundation is the only way to go, otherwise why even bother! Putting time and effort into "fads" or into tired, worn out, used up, ideologies won't work, can't work, never works.

            1. peoplepower73 profile image90
              peoplepower73posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              Here is how I see all of this.  When you hate one side or the other.  You will justify in your mind all the things that you perceive as bad in the side you hate and all the things that are good in the side you like.

              If you are a Trump/GOP supporter (Trumplican), you can list all the things that you think they did and are doing as good.  If you are a Biden/dem supporter you can list all the things that you think they are doing as good.

              I see Trumplicans as fraught with conspiracy theories that have not been proved.  They even have two Qanon members in congress now.  They are concerned about one thing only and that is getting reelected.  They will lie and cheat in order to achieve their goals.  How many times are they going to recount the ballots while spending tax payers money?  And yet they don't want to investigate the insurrection any further in order to protect Trump and company and their chances for reelection.

              As far as new ideas and changes, why do you think republicans are called conservatives and liberals are called progressives?  In the main, conservatives don't want change, they like the status quo while progressives are constantly bringing about change that conservatives don't like and they will do everything to fight that change...Everything I have stated here is based on my observation.

              1. wilderness profile image95
                wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

                Your paragraph on "trumplicans" is interesting.  From the other side (discarding the made up terminology that has nothing to do with reality) it is much the same.

                Democrats are fraught with conspiracy theories (Trump colluded with Putin to fix the election, Trump caused an "insurrection" in an attempt to overthrow the USA...but without any planning, without any intel, without tools/materials necessary to break into a single building.  They are concerned about one thing only - getting reelected, as in multiple faux impeachment attempts designed and intended to remove a political opponent and the shocking behavior in Clinton's primary when the so-called election really was fixed.  How many times will they deny any election fraud without ever looking, and how do they (reasonably) deny the insurrection attempt in Seattle and other cities plagued by anarchists using violence and destruction to get their way (normally called "terrorism" when innocent civilians are targeted)?  How do they stand by and even encourage criminal behavior (riots, sanctuary cities, illegal border crossing) while whining the Republicans committed a crime?

                Guess it's just as you say - it all depends on who is talking and how it is spun.

                1. peoplepower73 profile image90
                  peoplepower73posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Wilderness:  Wow!! We finally agree on something.

          2. Credence2 profile image82
            Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

            Sharlee, when you speak of dissatisfaction with the status quo, that has to apply to both sides, I am not satisfied with the "system" as promoted by Trump and his GOP hordes, and you are not satisfied with the current leadership. But my side outnumbered yours, and just as Trump won in 2016, we win this time. Why can't you accept that?

            "Your book" is just one of millions on the shelf. What would it look like if we examined another book?

            Conservatives cling to things even if it is obvious that the thing is not working. The Republicans are America's "House of Lords", I am not terribly concerned about "Lords". As far as I am concerned, the status quo as defined by Conservatives needs to be altered. If we had listened to conservatives we would have not seen the Progressive Era of the early 20th Century, not the New Deal, Social Security, etc, which at the time could very well be credited with allowing capitalism to survive in its current form.

            The people in 2020 chose to move on beyond Trump and there is no reason to assume that they are any less intelligent than you are, it is simply a different perspective.

            1. wilderness profile image95
              wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

              "Conservatives cling to things even if it is obvious that the thing is not working."

              You mean as in record setting unemployment for blacks?  As in ever higher average wages for blacks?  As in ever increasing numbers of blacks in higher education, or the upper echelons of government and business?  As in continued declining instances of racism against blacks?  As in the death of the old KKK with their burning crosses and murders?

              Are those the things that are obviously not working?

              1. Credence2 profile image82
                Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                First of all, Wilderness, based on this we need to see more, better and faster, Biden is closer to my desires in this area.

                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_pa … ted_States

                "As in the death of the old KKK with their burning crosses and murders."

                I don't know whether I should be eternally grateful in regards to the worlds first democracy having a congress that in 75 years after the Civil War would not outlaw extralegal lynching. They never really did but  finally replaced it with a somewhat legal version carried out in respective states' execution chambers.  Should I bend at the knee with hat in hand? If that was supposed to be progress, I would say that it was pretty tardy.

                What ever progress has been made has been in spite of conservative resistance, certainly they have not ever had an enduring role in moving the ball along.  That describes the Democrats in the 19th and early 20th century and the GOP thereafter.

            2. Sharlee01 profile image83
              Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

              I do accept  Biden's win, as you claim you accepted Trump's win. However I think the archives at this forum would prove this not to be completely accurate, We had lots of discussions about all that was Trump.
              I have stated I would keep an open mind, go day by day with my thoughts on Biden's job performance. I think I have stuck to that.  I never claimed I would give him a pass just due to him winning. He started out a hot mess, and so far is trying to dig himself in deeper. Trump was very quick to make good on promises and fought like crazy to attempt to get around the Congress and did a pretty good job at it.  He was one of the most progressive presidents we have had in many decades. A bull in a china shop. As you know he was a Dem for the better part of his life.

              My book would be a learning manual, a tried and true how-to book, with steps on how to succeed. The Democrats are pushing a  fiction book, a what-if the kind of this work of book. A book that has some very attractive plans that sound good on paper, but just is not at this point feasible. 

              I don't think the conservative post-Trump has come to awakening, seeing what he accomplished in a short time has made them see status quo is no longer acceptable to us that vote...   Trumpism is alive and well. Trump showed  Washington for what it is --- a corrupt swamp.  I would think the Republicans if they are smart will run someone that leans toward Trumpism, but with a better demeanor.

              It is so odd you feel Biden in any respect is any different than any of the Dems that came before him. You seem to think he will be able to actually get his agenda through. Is that really realistic?  Could have you been taken in by words?  He has done nothing but destroy some great things Trump accomplish, and at hyper speed., He has brought the country back to the day Obama walked out of the White House.

              Chose to move beyond Trump? My gosh, Biden is an old-school
              politician.  He is in way over his head. He was a poor senator, a do-nothing VP, that the president labeled him an uncle, Joe... That is an old phrase that is derogatory, indicating an old senile uncle, one that tells lots of fish stories. And this does fit the bill in Biden's case.

              1. peoplepower73 profile image90
                peoplepower73posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                Sharlee:  Let's take a look at what Trump did; what he compromised on, and didn't do in his four years in office. He was not a real conservative.  He is what I call a Trump Conservative who still has a strangle hold on the GOP and his base.

                https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete … uling=true

                1. peoplepower73 profile image90
                  peoplepower73posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  Sharlee:  Next, let's look at what Biden has accomplished in his first 100 days as a liberal progressive president.

                  https://www.politifact.com/article/2021 … -days-off/

                  1. Sharlee01 profile image83
                    Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                    Biden has done nothing in his first four months but talk. He is a hot mess. My gosh, not sure how you could in any respect feel Biden has accomplished anything. He has talked his way into a sharp corner with all his crazy promises. Come on...I do not call agreeing to rejoin the Pairs climate control an accomplishment, nor him taking credit for anything Operation Warp Speed had in the works months before Biden came into office.  The 1.9 stimulus was a gimmie.  And need I mention how many stimulus billsTrump provided in the last months of his time in office...

                    Biden promised to update the Voting Rights Act, which was first signed into law in 1965
                    WORDS... No progress on the promise


                    For the rest, Politifact found as accomplishments ---

                    Key elements of the American Rescue Plan included unemployment assistance, a temporary expansion of the child tax credit, an increase in food stamp aid.

                    At this point the economy is showing old joe has caused a nightmare due to his  DONT WORK WHEN YOU CAN SIT HOME AND MAKE MORE plans...  Rising gas prices, as well as food and utility bills.  Great common sense. LOL

                    Biden’s $2.3 trillion infrastructure proposal includes about $650 billion aimed at curtailing climate change.  Once again no progress on the bill.

                    Politifact has listed a bunch of his unkept promises or promises that have caused problems for American citizens. . 

                    Here is a link to PolitiFact's latest list on Bidens Promises. Very disappointing I would say. The stats show a president that has stalled badly with keeping promises. A president that has made a ton of unrealistic promises that he knew he could not in any respect push through Congress. Biden is making a mess of the country and doing it at warp speed.

                    https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-mete … uling=true

                2. Sharlee01 profile image83
                  Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  I actually kept very good track of what Trump accomplished. As I mentioned in my comment --- "  As you know he was a Dem for the better part of his life."   I don't associate Trump with conservatism in any respect. Much of what never reached the general public.

                  I have as I said not witnessed a president accomplish so much in four years, and not only that --- he made it all look so simple. Makes one think does it not?

              2. Credence2 profile image82
                Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                Yes, I accepted the Trump win, but that did not obligate me to like it.

                Your "open mind" still has a distinct conservative, right wing tilt or so many more of us that are more moderate would share your views.

                You have praise for Trump that the majority of us did not share, otherwise wouldn't he have been a shoe in for reelection? In the last 50 years only Jimmy Carter was denied a second term, I don't count GHW Bush in 1989 as there was a third party involved. I think that Trump's failure to achieve that is a pretty resounding rejection by the American people.

                Trump and Trumpism will split the GOP in two and exacerbate the opposing response from moderates and the left, me included.

                The differences of Democratic administrations is the one I prefer. I only got nervous when the GOP put forth so a divisive a candidate back in 2016.

                He is realistic enough to me, and although his agenda is great and he is going to get a lot of blowback from the sclerotic Right, it is far better than the Trump regime. Me and mine as shown in the vote tally had nothing favorable to report in regard to the Trump administration. I will accept Biden's earnest attempts at change over Trump's "turning back the clock".

                As for "Uncle Joe", these are all your opinions and those of the right wing echo chamber, and is hardly a universal view. How can you objectively say that all the Biden voters don't know what they are getting with Biden or why they needed Trump to remain? For a senile old man, I am satisfied with his performance over that of the previous mad man.

                For many of us, Trump smells of fish that was left out of freezer for a few days. I trust neither him, his political party nor his followers.

                1. Sharlee01 profile image83
                  Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

                  I don't in any respect think Trump turned back the clock. In fact, he broke away from traditional, and one could see cared less about what the rest of the world thought about his very progressive agenda. He pulled out of almost all the old boy clubs --- Pair Climate accord, Nafta,   Trans-Pacific Partnership,  Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty.  I was surprised to see he did not pull out of the UN. He bashed WHO as well as the CDC.

                  He clearly was not satisfied with the past, status quo.   Not sure how or why you would even conceive Trump wanted to head back when he blew up all roads to backward. He was the most progressive president most likely in our history. My God, he was building a wall...  He had a very different vision for America, and it was all about America and Americans.

                  Ya got a guy now that is doing all he can to go backward, and willing to tell you whatever you want to hear, but in no respect intending to keep any of the promises he has made.

                  Trump is a fighter, a visionary, Biden is a failed Senator that was always on the outside looking in. And at the point a  true old uncle Joe... He is being used by a very dishonest political party. 

                  You claim you are satisfied with his performance, what performance, he has not done anything. He has just traded a basement for the White House. He has done nothing but cause problems. Not sure what you feel he has accomplished. He does promise a lot, it would seem you are buying into words, not deeds.

                  I guess I could say I don't trust Biden with good cause, I have proven time and time again he lies to her himself lie. I won't say I don't trust his followers, I trust people for reasons other than their political views. In regards to the Democratic party, at this point, I trust nothing they
                  stand for.

  2. abwilliams profile image69
    abwilliamsposted 13 months ago

    Really Cred, you've "never seen such initiatives from the left"? Have you not heard about or read about, Inclusionary Zoning?
    Because some of us prefer to live in rural areas, away from the city, we have been singled out, we have targets on our backs, lawsuits have actually been filed against us for  "denying rights to housing". Oh yes! It is only going to get worse because the Biden Administration, just like the Obama Administration is all in for Inclusionary Zoning. Seeking to abolish private property is as Marxist as it comes, but we know where the left stands on that, don't we?
    Developers that may lean left or may lean right, but mostly lean greedy...use this leftist, Marxist tactic, via lawsuits, to their full advantage! They don't care who gets displaced in order to place someone else there...they don't care about anything other than... lining their pockets!
    They don't care about those that may lose their land which has been passed down for generations or about those who have worked their butts off to keep the land they invested in and actually VALUE it! Certainly more than any developer or government entity ever could or would.
    This is happening throughout the United States, not just here in Florida. People better start watching their backs, their boundaries, their borders and who they are deciding belongs in office in the United States of America, their "unalienable Rights" are at stake.

    1. Sharlee01 profile image83
      Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      So agree...

    2. Credence2 profile image82
      Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      No, I am not familiar with the problem do you have a few not rightwing oriented links so that I may become educated on this issue from all sides.

      I am certainly interested in learning more about it.

      Still liberals are not talking about "balkanizing" entire states.

  3. Readmikenow profile image95
    Readmikenowposted 13 months ago

    Interesting thread.

    The concept of portions of a state breaking off to form another state is nothing new.  It has been going on since after the Civil War in many different forms. It usually comes down to people living in rural areas not wanting to be controlled by people in the city.  I can understand that perfectly.  Rural people generally have a more independent mindset.  People in cities usually have a dependent on the government mindset.  These two beliefs often clash in many ways.

    Ever hear of the State of Jefferson?  It's been a desire of rural people for many years.  The idea first began in 1941.

    "The State of Jefferson is a proposed U.S. state that would span the contiguous, mostly rural area of southern Oregon and northern California, where several attempts to separate from Oregon and California, respectively, have taken place."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_(proposed_Pacific_state)

    Here is a list of other similar type proposals.  It has been done in the past.  At one time or another almost all states have as proposals to partition them. 

    "Of the 37 states admitted to the Union by Congress, three were set off from an already existing state:

    Kentucky – 1792, was a part of Virginia[5]
    Maine – 1820, was a part of Massachusetts[6]
    West Virginia – 1863, was a part of Virginia[7]"


    Illinois
    Between 1840 and 1842, several northern counties in Illinois, including Jo Daviess County, Stephenson County, Winnebago County and Boone County, voted to reattach to Wisconsin, from which the counties were ceded to Illinois by Congress in 1818. The split was precipitated by the mutual antagonism between northerners and southerners due to social and political differences. The split was never realized due to lack of support from Chicago and Cook County, as the benefits of the Illinois and Michigan Canal linking northern to central and southern Illinois outweighed secession.[33]
    In 1861, the southern region of Illinois, known as Little Egypt, proposed secession due to cultural and political differences from Chicago and much of Central and Northern Illinois.[34][35]
    In 1925, Cook County considered secession to create the state of Chicago.[36]
    In the early 1970s, residents in western Illinois were upset over the allocation of state funds for transportation, prompting a student at Western Illinois University to declare 16 counties the Republic of Forgottonia. Although the declaration was meant to be a joke, the secession idea was picked up by the Western Illinois Regional Council, until State Representative Doug Kane showed that the counties had received funding that was more than what they paid in state taxes.[37]
    In November 2011, State Representatives Bill Mitchell and Adam Brown introduced a proposal to make Cook County a state of its own. They felt that all of Illinois outside of Cook County should become a separate state, due to Chicago's "dictating its views" to the rest of the state.[38]
    On February 7, 2019, State Representative Brad Halbrook, with co-sponsors Representatives Chris Miller and Darren Bailey, filed a resolution that urges the United States Congress to declare the City of Chicago the 51st state of the United States of America and separate it from the rest of Illinois.[39][40]
    Kansas
    In 1992, a group in southwestern Kansas advocated the secession of a number of counties in that region from the state. Nominally headed by Don O. Concannon, a lawyer and former gubernatorial candidate from Hugoton, the group called the new state name "West Kansas", a state bird (pheasant), and a state flower (yucca). The proposal was in reaction to laws raising real estate taxes, and shifting state education funding away from rural school districts and into more urban areas. Though organizers arranged for a series of straw polls that demonstrated widespread support for secession in nine counties,[41] the movement died out by the mid-1990s.[42]
    Maine
    Maine was initially part of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts before being admitted to the Union as a state in 1820. However, its boundary with British North America (now Canada) had been in dispute for several decades. In 1827, John Baker unilaterally declared the disputed territory (now part of Aroostook County) to be the "Republic of Madawaska". The declaration was rejected by Maine in 1831. Following the undeclared Aroostook War in 1838–1839, the United States and United Kingdom signed the Webster–Ashburton Treaty on August 9, 1842, to settle the border issue.
    In 1998 and again in 2005, state representative Henry Joy proposed legislation to partition Maine into northern and southern states. He cited concern for the rural northern part, encompassing Maine's 2nd congressional district, being affected by "anti-business policies" and "overzealous environmental safeguards".[43] Reflecting his political opinion of the trends there, Joy suggested the southern half be named "Northern Massachusetts" and the northern half remain "Maine", though others have suggested "Acadia" for the northern half.[44]
    Maryland
    Westsylvania, proposed during the American Revolution, would have been created from parts of Pennsylvania and Virginia and a small part of Maryland.
    In 1998, state legislator Richard F. Colburn proposed to the Maryland General Assembly that a referendum be held to allow nine counties representing the Eastern Shore to secede from the state. They would invite counties from Delaware and Virginia to form the state of Delmarva.[45][46][47]
    In September 2009, Frederick County Commissioner John L. Thompson Jr. proposed that the county secede from Maryland because the county pays more to state government in taxes than it receives in services and benefits. The proposal was rejected by the other commissioners in the county.[48]
    In February 2014, it was reported that residents from Western Maryland started petitions to form a new state, citing taxes and gun control as issues. Possible names for such a proposed state included Liberty, Antietam, Appalachia, and Augusta.[49]
    Massachusetts
    The state's exclave District of Maine had proposed secession multiple times in the early 19th century. Long-standing disagreements over land speculation and settlements led Maine residents and their allies in Massachusetts proper to force an 1807 vote in the Massachusetts General Court on permitting Maine to separate; the vote failed. Separatist sentiment in Maine was stoked during the War of 1812 when pro-British Massachusetts merchants opposed the war, and refused to defend Maine from British invaders. Finally, on June 19, 1819, the Massachusetts General Court passed enabling legislation separating the "District of Maine" from the rest of the state (an action approved by the voters in Maine on July 19, 1819, by 17,001 to 7,132). Then, on February 25, 1820, the court passed a follow-up measure officially accepting the fact of Maine's imminent statehood.[50] Maine became the 23rd state on March 15, 1820, as part of the Missouri Compromise, which also geographically limited the spread of slavery and enabled the admission to statehood of Missouri the following year.[51][52][53]
    During the abolitionist era some supporters of William Lloyd Garrison sought the secession of Essex County from the state.[54]
    Boston Corner, in the southwestern corner of the state, was ceded to the state of New York in 1857, due to Massachusetts being unable to administer the hamlet.
    A 1919 tax-protest proposal filed in the state legislature would have created an independent State of Boston.[44]
    In 1977, the islands of Martha's Vineyard, Nantucket, and the Elizabeth Islands proposed to separate from Massachusetts because of a redistricting bill that would have deprived Dukes County, consisting of Martha's Vineyard and the Elizabeth Islands, and Nantucket County of separate representation in the General Court. At local town meetings, culminating in the All-Island Selectmen's Association Conference, residents and community leaders voted in favor of secession with an "overwhelming majority". When the Nantucket state representative filed a bill with the Massachusetts Legislature, Connecticut governor Ella T. Grasso suggested that the islands join her state. Additionally, the legislatures of New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Vermont each supported the islands' annexation to their state. Although the redistricting bill passed, the state representatives pledged to assign aides for the two counties that would report to their state representative, and the area received much positive publicity.[55][56]
    Michigan
    Main article: Superior (proposed U.S. state)
    Michigan's Upper Peninsula has been the subject of proposals to create a separate state, "Superior", which would include some counties of Wisconsin, and in some proposals, parts of the Lower Peninsula.[57]
    Minnesota
    In the mid 19th century there had been intermittent advocacy for the Arrowhead of Minnesota, the four northeast counties of the state adjacent to Lake Superior, to join with northwestern Wisconsin and the Upper Peninsula of Michigan to form a new state to be named "North Country" or Superior, with Duluth as its capital.[58][59]
    In March 2021, HF 2423 was introduced to the state legislature with the goal of establishing a process for counties to vote to leave the state of Minnesota and instead join one of Minnesota's bordering states.[60] A petition was also started alongside the introduction of the proposal with the primary goal of counties outside the Twin Cities area joining South Dakota, but also encouraging joining Iowa or Wisconsin.[61] The bill was introduced in response to Governor Tim Walz's response to the COVID-19 pandemic, in which Minnesota was shut down and restricted to a far stricter extent and for a longer duration of time than all its neighboring states. South Dakota, which remains the only state in the country to never issue any business restrictions at any time was viewed in a major contrast to Minnesota's restrictions. Shortly after the bill's introduction, South Dakota Governor Kristi Noem tweeted in favor of the bill.[62]
    Missouri
    McDonald County declared itself the McDonald Territory for a brief period of time in July 1961.[63][64] The movement was half in jest, after a city within the county was accidentally omitted from an official Missouri map.[65]
    Montana
    In 1939, a secessionist movement proposed the State of Absaroka, to be formed from portions of Montana, adjacent areas of Wyoming, and parts of South Dakota. Motivated by opposition to New Deal politics and a desire to bring tourism to the area, the craze was reflected in state automobile license plates bearing the name; a "Miss Absaroka" contest held in that year; and a minor league baseball team called the Absaroka Eagles.[65][66][67][68]
    Nebraska
    In the 1890s, residents of the Nebraska Panhandle threatened secession when the state refused to enact water laws that would encourage irrigation.[69]
    Nevada
    In 2020, residents of rural Nevada proposed breaking away from the state due to the strong liberal influence of Clark County on the politics of the state. The movement proposes the state of "New Nevada". Proponents also filed an amicus brief in Texas v. Pennsylvania.[70]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U … _proposals

    1. Credence2 profile image82
      Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      Here is a little info for you, Mike

      82 percent of the American population lives in cities and urban centers, and overwhelmingly votes democratic. Why should the 18 percent remaining  expect a more than commensurate voice in how the nation is run?

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urbanization_by_country

      https://www.quora.com/Are-there-any-big … opulations

      So it is a little more involved than just California and New York, don't you think? As it is determined that virtually every large city vote Democrat. So, how do you explain that and why should I allow a minority group of sod busters and cowpokes to have an inordinate influence?

      Instead of worrying about China, maybe we should concern ourselves about balkanizing this country out of existence. If we take things as far as the Right would have us take things, we have to visit the absurd.

      1. wilderness profile image95
        wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

        Perhaps because those sod busters and cowpokes, and the culture they espoused, was what built this country, is what puts food on your table and a roof on your head. 

        Certainly it was not done by liberals screaming to disarm the country, by liberals demanding that men be allowed to dominate women's sports, by liberals teaching that higher levels of melanin means higher morals - that anyone without that melanin is deficient morally and wishes to hurt anyone with it.  It wasn't built by demanding we get rid of police and it wasn't done by rioting and burning cities. 

        So, just maybe, that culture so demonized by liberals is the one we need to see more of.  The culture of a strong family, hard work and responsibility for one's self rather than victimology, single parents and violence.  Perhaps we should look into stronger state's rights, wherein Iowa, Kansas, Montana, North Dakota and so on and so on are not hobbled by self destructive liberal policies.  If NYC wants to disarm it's people and get rid of police then let it do so.......but leave the states without the crime rate of NYC (or Detroit, Or Richmond, Va., or LA or Seattle) alone and outside exceedingly foolish liberal rules.

        And that doesn't even address the immorality of a majority running roughshod over those that wish differently and attempting to control them, forcing them to become what they are not.

        1. Credence2 profile image82
          Credence2posted 13 months agoin reply to this

          That is YOUR culture, Wilderness. It is nothing more than American forklore. And finished goods are what the the rural folks gets in return?
          The computers and all the implements of modern technology comes from where and do not these people benefit?

          We, the urbanites, are in the majority by an ever increasing margins and we don't want to play by the rules of the residents of Wyoming or the Dakotas. But, I guess YOU folks are the only "Real Americans", yes?

          I can support a certain amount of autonomy among different counties. Denver and the front range require emission inspections for vehicles every two years as a condition of your registering a vehicle. None of this stuff exists nor are need d in the rural counties of the state. I can compromise on that basis only. So, the gun people in the more rural areas of New York should not be subject to gun control regulations that apply to the the 5 New York City boroughs.

          But, I am certainly not going to let 20 percent of the population control the other 80 percent, you can bet on that. That is far worse than the other way around.

          "The culture of a strong family, hard work and responsibility for one's self rather than victimology, single parents and violence"

          A subtle barb at Black folks, perhaps, but I and they are not buying it as anymore than the standard American fairy tale, in a fundamentally inequitable society from the start.

          I have a lot of ugly things that the Right and Rightwingers teach and the list would be exceed my ability state them all here.

          1. wilderness profile image95
            wildernessposted 13 months agoin reply to this

            You may think the carrots you eat are magically generated fully grown in the grocery store; I don't.  You may think that the steel in your car is mined in the heart of Detroit; I don't. 

            So guns are OK outside the cities that forbid them.  Then why in the world has there been a years (decades?) long program to remove from everyone?

            "A subtle barb at Black folks, perhaps, but I and they are not buying it as anymore than the standard American fairy tale, in a fundamentally inequitable society from the start."

            And perhaps not a barb at black folks at all; what is the percentage of single parent families amongst the sodbusters and what is it in the urban areas?  Black or white, brown or yellow; what are those percentages?

            You may think it is a fairy tale that hard work may produce a good lifestyle while sitting at home living on welfare won't, but would highly disagree.

            "I have a lot of ugly things that the Right and Rightwingers teach and the list would be exceed my ability state them all here."

            Outside of religion (typically claimed by the right) what are these ugly things, where are they being taught, and will you provide links to the curriculum/location?

  4. abwilliams profile image69
    abwilliamsposted 13 months ago

    I would just like to take this opportunity to say, first and foremost, I am proud to call myself an American, but I am also a proud member of the 75+ million "sod busters and cowpokes". YeeHaw!!

    1. Sharlee01 profile image83
      Sharlee01posted 13 months agoin reply to this

      I guess I am a sodbuster and cowpoke too...  and for the majority of my life, I was a city girl. Go figure.

      1. abwilliams profile image69
        abwilliamsposted 13 months agoin reply to this

        ^5

Closed to reply
 
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