Joe's Big Climate Parodox

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   Sharlee01posted 3 years ago

   
   The semiconductor industry presents a  real paradox. Meeting global climate goals will, in part, rely on semiconductors. They’re integral to electric vehicles, solar arrays, and wind turbines. But chip manufacturing also contributes to the climate crisis. It requires huge amounts of energy and water – a chip fabrication plant, or fab, can use millions of gallons of water a day – and creates hazardous waste.
   
   A global shortage of high-end chips, as the pandemic boosted demand for electronics and Covid outbreaks closed fabs, has increased focus on the industry.
   
   In a tight market, automakers found themselves at the back of the chip queue, far behind much bigger-scale semiconductor customers such as Apple, who use the chips to give computing power to their smartphones, laptops, and other devices. GM halted production in several of its North American factories this month, while Toyota said it would cut its carmaking by 40% in September.
   
   In an attempt to increase production, many countries are embarking on big programs to boost the industry, as we are currently in the US.
   
   The Chips for America Act proposes $52bn in funding over five years for the US semiconductor industry. The EU has forwarded its own legislation aimed at increasing its share of the global chips market to 20% by 2030. The European Commission president, Ursula von der Leyen, called it “a matter of tech sovereignty” in her State of the European Union address last week.
   
   These ambitions line up a potential clash with international climate goals. Both the EU and the US aim to get halfway to net zero carbon emissions by 2030, and to net zero by 2050. And as the semiconductor industry grows, so too will its carbon footprint.
   
   Studies show ---  The most important health concern in the semiconductor industry is cancer. The incidence (or prevalence) rate and causality of cancer have been hot issues in the semiconductor industry throughout the world since the 1980s.
   https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4090871/
   
   I only have a few words to share --- this is also hypocritical.

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      wildernessposted 3 years agoin reply to this

      I suspect you are underestimating just how common the electronic chip is today.  It is not limited to cars, computers and phones.  As I look around my home I see:
      
      LED light bulbs, the hot water heater, range, microwave, dishwasher, garbage compactor, air fryer, clothes washer/dryer, all containing chips.  My car of course, but also the lawn mower, hedge trimmer, and a variety of power tools (but not the 1950 Shop Smith in the corner).  The flashlight in the drawer, the air conditioner and furnace, an electric toothbrush, hair dryer, a vacuum, the outside light with an auto on feature and the circuit for Xmas lights.  The TV and DVD player, my desk lamp, electric razor, the ceiling fan, bedside clock, the faucet in the kitchen sink, the refrigerator and freezer, the water softener, garage door opener, a modem and router.
      
      I don't think the pump at the bottom of the well has a chip in it, and I know the grandfather clock does not.
      
      But, to a very large degree, anything with electricity, from 240 volts down to a single battery, will have a chip somewhere in it.  Life as we know it would not exist without the electronic chip.

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         Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

         Yes, it is clear we need the chips, but is it not very hypocritical for the Biden administration to be rushing to get rid of all fossil fuels due to their being harmful to the climate, and jumping on the next bandwagon to increase manufacturing that will cause pollution on a large scale.
         
         There is enough scientific information that shows the true pollution manufacturing chips can cause, along with some serious
         health problem. 
         
         On one hand, Biden rejoins the Paris Climate Agreement, on the other, he moves into manufacturing chips.  It's once again a  --- Look here, not there "

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            wildernessposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            Of course it is.  Biden is noted for neither consistency nor the ability to look beyond the end of his nose; the result is "Listen to what I say, but don't watch what I do".

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               Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               The country is in such trouble, and it seems we have a real problem with a non-caring just accepts anything society. I feel America has been well dumbed down.  This is palpable.

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            GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

            On this issue, I don't think it is hypocritical, I think it is pragmatic. We need to do both.
            
            It seems all agree that we need the chips. We generally lead this technology in terms of advanced R&D and chip design, but we don't make the chips. That makes us a hostage to China. I see that as a national security issue.
            
            GA

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               Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Very logical, however, my entire point --- This nut job is on the one hand tieing the hands of our oil companies, begging for from other nations, and ultimately we are consuming the exact amounts of oil, as we have been using.  The US for many years has had regulations to deter the chip industry, due mainly to the true problems pollution and health problems that are associated with manufacturing semiconductor chips, and mining the minerals that are needed to manufacture chips. 
               
               So, yes I agree we need the chips, as we have needed oil.  I am not willing to dance around and come up with anything logical to make this decision one that is good for America.   In my view, we have the necessity for chips, as we do at this point for oil. But are we not trying to work towards a cleaner planet? In my view, we are headed into trading off one huge pollutant for another. And all the logic in the world will not in my view put lipstick on this pig.  This is all so for lack of a better term --- half-ass backward.
               
               This administration claims to be on its way to depleting the use of oil due to it hurting our atmosphere. However, now hopes to usher in another even larger polluter. 
               
               This OP was to point out the hypocrisy of this administration. I wonder if many are considering the minerals we will need to manufacture semiconductors?  Will, we start mining some of the most toxic minerals on earth?  Coal is like cool-aid compared with the minerals that semiconductor chips are made of.
               https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/r … facturing/
               
               "A typical semiconductor factory makes about 2 million integrated circuits per month and gulps about 20 million gallons of water, which ultimately must be disposed of as waste. Chips makers also use large amounts of energy and many toxic chemicals, all of which can harm the environment."
               
               Some may feel that manufacturing chips will be less of a problem for the earth than fossil fuels, but science says differently.  I truely hope they don't open up shop in my state. I live in the motor city, I would rather take my chances with car fumes.
               
               I am sure you did not want me to go on and on as I am known to do, so no need to reply.   But, I have become somewhat informed on the subject, and feel it necessary to at best not treat the subject casually. 
               
               In my view, you seem to be dealing with the US moving into this new industry sensibly and realistically, yes pragmatically.  I just wonder if you really know about all the ins and outs of manufacturing chips.
               
               In regards to China, we have many security issues that we don't deal with. Is that not water under the bridge?   They have marched over us in every respect. Maybe time to realize America is in trouble on many levels with China.
               
               So, I truely need to agree to disagree on this one.

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                  GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                  Thanks for the reading tip. I am generally familiar with the pollution problem involved with chip production. However, as mentioned, mitigation is possible and the industry is evolving and advancing in that effort.
                  
                  Only generally speaking: (not to diminish the environmental concerns)
                  
                  The human risk from the substances used is already mitigated by EPA and OSHA regulation. ie. full PPE for anyone that deals with them.
                  
                  The FAB facilities, (fabrication plants), are almost completely robotic, so human involvement is already minimal, and getting more so with each new FAB.
                  
                  FAB wastewater treatment is an industry in itself and it appears most FABs do treat their water to make it safe for discharge. This looks like a solvable problem too.
                  
                  The most easily quantifiable, and debatable concern is energy use. A new FAB, recently opened in New York state, will use the energy equivalent of 50,000 homes—per day. Obviously, the energy production costs are also tagged as an industry-owned problem.
                  
                  I haven't taken a 'deep dive', as some may have, but I think I have seen enough to hold onto my original thought. This is a national security issue and it looks like there are mitigations for most of the pollutants involved—except the energy production costs.
                  
                  To my national security thought, consider our at-the-moment confrontation over Taiwan. It is our primary source for the advanced chips we use and need. Consider our position if the Taiwan issue blows up, China takes it,  and cuts off all chip shipments to the West, (us and Europe).
                  
                  I think, considering current world tensions, (aka Putin's taking of Ukraine), that scenario is a real possibility. Putin has set the example and China has the power to also do it. And we can't do anything about it.
                  
                  Taiwan is a part of China, regardless of the past 50-years' arrangement. We have no footing to say or act otherwise.
                  
                  GA

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                     peoplepower73posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     Sharlee:  Choose your poison.  It's either global warming or chips.  Notice I did not say climate change.  That is a phrase that was developed by Frank Luntz as part of the GOP playbook, "Say this Not That."
                     
                     I believe right now we are seeing the effects of global warming with the extreme heat in some parts of the country and the severe storms and flooding in other parts of the country that are caused from greenhouse gas emissions. Each year, the effects are getting worse and causing more damage to life and property..
                     
                     Chip manufacturing may cause health issues, but looking at the difference between the damage that global warming can cause to life and property and health issue from chip manufactures, I say transitioning  from fossil fuels to renewable energy is more important.  Besides chips are force multipliers when it comes to reducing health issues, including those caused by chip fabs.
                     
                     When it comes to global warming we are treating the symptom not the cause.  After these floods clear out, they we rebuild and the same thing we happen again.  We need to transition to renewable energy or we are all going to pay the price for staying on fossil fuels. More powerful chips can help that happen.

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                     Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                     I would look rather unintelligent to dispute the main points you have offered. Because they are all logical.    We can assume OSHA regulation would be stringent, and yes,   robots are used in manufacturing plant that produces chips. I have no real idea of what will become of the massive toxic waste, or if the US will mine the minerals that we will need to manufacture chips. My concerns are directly aimed at the environment, and the health of Americans. 
                     
                     The energy output is also a concern. However, the US has the sources to produce as much energy via fossil fuels as would be needed, and possibly down the road, we will have an infrastructure that will bring cleaner energy to the forefront.
                     
                     Your thoughts on China are relevant in my view. China has the perfect opening and is in the perfect position to overtake Taiwan. The timing could not be more perfect.  We certainly would be in a pickle as would many other nations regarding obtaining semiconductor chips.
                     
                     It would be a massive problem, just due to the fact the US is far away from being able to provide the chips we would need to fuel our technology needs. What is a bigger problem, most of the products that utilize chips are products that China supplies us with?
                     
                     This all seems to be a day late, does it not? However, in this case, we are left with, better late than never.

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                        GA Andersonposted 2 years agoin reply to this

                        Yes, we are a "day late" in addressing this problem. We should have seen this possibility in the 90s.
                        
                        To your question about the "bigger problem," I think it is Taiwan. They are the world's supplier of 'advanced' chips, such as those in military and space-type applications. If China retakes Taiwan it could cut off the 'West's access to those advanced chips.
                        
                        GA

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                           Sharlee01posted 2 years agoin reply to this

                           "To your question about the "bigger problem," I think it is Taiwan. They are the world's supplier of 'advanced' chips, such as those in military and space-type applications. If China retakes Taiwan it could cut off the 'West's access to those advanced chips."
                           
                           Is this not a gimmie at this point? Do you feel China can be controlled at this point?
                           
                           Perhaps the US pretty much can't live without China, and China can't live without the US. I mean that's what I have been told... One only needs to look at what occurred during COVID in regard to supply and demand. I mean just think if those ships just stopped coming.
                           
                           Yes, China has us at a true disadvantage. I would think in the end China would not cut us off, we would be made to pay more. And we as citizens would bare the brunt of the higher costs.
                           
                           Talk about inflation...

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               Nathanvilleposted 2 years agoin reply to this

               Absolutely GA; spot on

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