"Stop Woke Nonsense"
Which is more Pro-American: Wokeness or Non-Wokeness?
In my opinion, Wokeness is hardly Pro-American.
What is Pro-American about a porous border/invasion of people, (including human/drug traffickers,) from all over the world, the encouragement of gender transformation/body mutilation/drugging of the youth and the Green policies, (based on pure theory, rather than reality/science,) which are leading US, (and the rest of the world,) to poverty, disease and death.
WonderingI guess to some, being Pro-American is nonsense
and being Anti-American makes sense.Pro-America is Pro Life for All.
Anti-America is Pro _______."Because it’s election season, you’re probably reading a ton of stories about Politician X appealing to Voting Bloc Y with Z-ish rhetoric. Journalists, political strategists and even politicians themselves deliver much of this information in a kind of code — terms and phrases that show up only in coverage of politics ..."
WHAT WE SAY
Woke, wokeness.
WHAT WE MEAN
Left-wing/very left-wing on issues of gender, LGBTQ and race.
This term could have been in the previous section, but it is newer and merits its own explanation. “Woke” was once used largely by Black people, invoking the idea that they should stay mindful of racism in America. The term is now used by political figures on the center-left, center-right and right as a kind of epithet against those they view as too left-wing on racial, gender and LGBTQ issues.
Like “identity politics” and other similar phrases, “woke” and “wokeness” are vague. They don’t have a broadly agreed-upon meaning. It’s fairly clear that using the term “Latinx” is considered woke or too woke by those in the political center and on the right. But I’m not sure whether supporting reparations is woke, too woke or not part of wokeness."
"How ‘woke’ became the least woke word in U.S. English:
I suspect that lack of clarity is why some people like using these terms. Slamming wokeness allows people to oppose left-wing views on very fraught issues without spelling out their specific objections."
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions … rry-bacon/WOKE policies address issues that are seen as problematic for people trying to gain access to the benefits of American society, (and even mental health!), but for some reason, can't.
The issues are:
1.) Perceived Racism
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK25531/
2.) Gender Dysphoria
https://facty.com/conditions/mental-hea … -Search-3.)
3.) Assigned-Gender-and-Gender-Dysphoria-Desktop&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI6ezChua6-wIVexTUAR1QMQnKEAAYAyAAEgLCGfD_BwE
4.)The Difficult Path to Citizenship for Immigrants.
https://www.afsc.org/blogs/news-and-com … immigrants
5.) The Right to Disregard the Life of an Embryo/Fetus if the mother can't, shouldn't or refuses to raise it from birth on.
https://ir.law.fsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent. … context=lr
6.) Going Soft on Prisoners and Criminals, preferring to Rehabilitate them on a Psychological Level.
https://www.themarshallproject.org/2018 … aylor-deadIt seems we have people who are very keen on addressing psychological concerns ...
as never before in History.
They have very good intentions, apparently ...
To the point of seeming religious or spiritual!
It is hard to resist their concerns, when, to oppose them is to seem heartless!
The Left seeks to embrace policies/solutions on a psychological level more than the Right.
Q. Why?
A. Because the Right sees dangerous consequences in the policies/solutions these policies create on a political and realistic level.Tending to reality is our duty.
Q. How can we address these concerns in a compassionate AND realistic light?
A. By seeing both sides of each issue and considering the consequences of all proposals, regarding solutions and policies.
And of course, to accomplish these open dialogues we must maintain Freedom of Speech.
Thank You
You are Welcome.
PS The title should have been "Stop-Woke nonsense." It is not nonsense to consider stopping "woke" political policies when it is clear they lead to disastrous consequences. Rather, it is prudent to clearly analyze/pinpoint political policies which are obviously causing harmful/dire consequences.
Don't you just love British accents?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ebmf4xmty8The very word "woke" is silly to me as another liberal craze, a fad word --- like the pet rock or flower power. Oh, and then there was the fad to wear glasses without the need, but to make a fashion statement. Yeah, need I say more? It's all about following the leader.
I would disagree. It's all about causing hurt and harm to those whose long dead ancestors caused hurt to others. Punish the child for the sins of the father.
You are correct, 100% correct. your brave to share that sentiment. Me, I did not want to need to defend my thoughts on the Woke ideologies. I mean. I would have summed it up as a cult-like group that literally hates America, and America's values.
But in the end, I do look at it as a form of fad liberals have jumped on. I will admit I find it a dangerous fad that some liberals have
clearly adopted.
I have no respect for most far-left liberals. To be kind, I think them very silly.Yet people DO buy into their ideas! To be anti-America?
No, I don't think so.Are the ideas of the Far Left being used by them to ruin US?
That's the (very valid) question.
I've only heard black people use it, them and far right conservatives, especially their politicians and media, who use it in contempt.
The word refers to being aware. People who use this term feel they are being sensitive to psychological issues which LURK in the background of society, history and time. These issues, I believe/agree, have truly not been adequately addressed.
Step one, become conscious of them. Psychological issues do need to be considered in helping one another toward a good life.
But don't settle for policies/solutions which harm others, (American citizens,) in the process.
This admonition isolates the difficulty.
The youth are especially sensitive to spreading
l o v e and c o m p a s s i on.
Logic needs to be learned/incorporated, however ... and love needs to be guided by wisdom.This whole thread gave me a great laugh. No one is mutilating children's bodies, and if you believe that dumb crap you shouldn't be allowed to vote. There really needs to be a comprehension test for voting..
Do you even know when or who started the phrase Woke or do you just casually use it as something to hate liberals for?
Oh yeah, that human trafficking, like Desantis telling a group of people they were going to get jobs and a better life and then trafficking them across state lines for political gain? Or was that ok because you like the guy who did it?
Times change. Evolution happens. We treat people better than they use to be treated. If that's woke I am good with it.
Oh and I am not a Dem, but people like you are why I no longer consider myself a republican. Pure ignorance is bliss mentality of believing everything extremist websites tell you to believe. I'd rather be woke than delusional. Feel free to have the last word on this. I am not sure this was even worth the time it took me to type this."Times change. Evolution happens. We treat people better than they use to be treated. If that's woke I am good with it."
It is priceless and well worth your time to make mention of this, thanks....... depends on which people are being treated better, I suppose.
"Times change. Evolution happens. We treat people better than they use to be treated. If that's woke I am good with it."
"I'd rather be woke than delusional."
100%That is so true. People are becoming more humane & conscious. That is due partly to becoming more educated. Education opens people's minds. Education causes people to be more cognizant of others & their environment.
I would agree 100%. IF that were what "woke" is then I would be the one beating the big drums.
But it isn't. "Woke" is about persecution, racism and discrimination. As such I want nothing to do with it.
Really don't know what to do about my daughter's woke extremes lately. I was happy to go into art business with her. Been called by her a racist, white Supremist, a liar, and incapable of love. Haven't heard from anybody that I know, any of this kind of name calling in the pass.
Meanwhile love is the most important word and behavior in the world. Marriaged a native women, travelers of 6 continents. Dated mostly women of colour. Honesty is my best policy. Don't like empires or world order. If I say anything in my defense, I'm quilty as charged.
On a different note, I love that some of our geriatric Congress members aren't even aware of the concept. Sen. Jim Inhofe, R-Okla., said he doesn't know what "wokeness" means when asked whether he agrees with his colleagues that it is a major concern.
"Concerns about wokeness?" asked Inhofe, 86. "I cannot answer that, because frankly I don't know what you're talking about.".
At this point, Ron DeSantis is the country's anti-woke warrior. I think his anti woke legislation is a great example that legislative overreach is definitely out of control. Thank goodness a judge determined policies from the law violate First Amendment free speech protections along with due-process rights in the 14th Amendment on college campuses.
Calling it "positively dystopian"
Do we really want government legislating speech? Thought?I will admit I have not read the bill "Stop Woke" Desantis passed. I do know that it was written due to what appeared to citizens noting a problem of CRT being taught in schools. Desantis is a hands-on Governor, and tackles problems instead of ignoring them. I surmise that way he was reelected by 60% of the vote. About a year ago parents started to become involved, and show up in numbers at the board meeting to protest what they felt was inappropriate information being taught by some teachers. A movement started and grew rather quickly - Moms For Liberty
Moms for Liberty has turned ‘parental rights’ into a rallying cry for conservative parents
The three-dozen women who showed up at a Brevard County school board meeting wearing identical "Moms for Liberty" T-shirts, declaring they don't "CO-PARENT with the GOVERNMENT."
The organization is channeling a powerful frustration among conservative mothers, who feel increasingly sidelined by school administrators and teachers. And their targets are sprawling — not only did they fight mask mandates but also curriculums that touch on LGTBQ rights, race, and discrimination.
In a matter of months, Moms for Liberty has grown to 135 chapters in 35 states, with 56,000 members and supporters.
I would think Desantis listened to the Mom's and was seeking to solve problems that clearly disturbed them.
I don't agree that teachers in K-12 have the right to teach their own ideologies. I do believe our history should be taught with truth, but not shaming white people for something that happened so long ago.
I think Desantis showed he listened to the citizens of his state. He stood up for his parents in Florida, that's his job. To listen and hear all citizens that he represents.
He has the same right to free speech. His speech is remarkably Conservative.
Will be interesting to see what he does with the court's decision."I don't agree that teachers in K-12 have the right to teach their own ideologies. I do believe our history should be taught with truth, but not shaming white people for something that happened so long ago"
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The "truth" in itself induces shame, that is why conservatives work so hard to cover it up. DeSantis speaks for Red Florida, not for the rest of us.In my view, any form of slavery should induce shame. In the perpetrator. I don't feel my little grandson needs to feel shame over the crimes of others.
Sorry, in my view, slavery was a crime of America's long dead. I feel slavery is part of our history and should be in our history books, and teachers should teach the truth. This was a sin of people that lived long ago, and a war was fought to free the country of slavery.
To sum up, I would want my grandson to learn true empathy, not shame for something he had nothing to do with. Empathy is more powerful than shame. It works to stop the unjust treatment that we still see in our society. Shaming only invokes anger. Being made to feel shame over something one had no participation in --- yes, invokes anger, and resentment.
I think your party has led you on an endless path, to forever feeling different.
Maybe look around how so many Blacks just prefer to feel equal, and won't even settle for being pointed out as victims. Is this not a more suitable attitude? If one remains clinging to slavery, it sort of makes one a slave to an ideology. An ideology that so many American people just don't understand anymore. We as a society have evolved. Yes, we need lots of work. But provoking anger only stops, and even sets back the progress that has been made.
I think in the case of his Woke bill, he may have been trying to prevent the children of today from being shamed, and the harmful division teaching CRT. A division of our very young. Teaching pure discord between black and white. Do we really want to breed separation of color... Did that, fought a war to stop it.
Sorry Cred, I say this with respect --- please at best consider my words.
Is not teaching facts without shaming children for their color, just a better way to go?
A few years he was four) back my grandson asked me why some kids have"dark skin". I told him, you have the color skin you have, and some "just" are born with other color skin, it has to do with science.
His response --- Oh.
Hopefully, at this point, America can work to move toward, Oh. Or we can just keep evoking division, anger, and even hate. Seems we will head back if we continue to consider we have come so far. Empathy, in my view ill bring more solutions."In my view, any form of slavery should induce shame. In the perpetrator. I don't feel my little grandson needs to feel shame over the crimes of others."
Sharlee, nobody will be allowed to "get off the hook" here.
Kids will ask the darndest things. What do I tell my nephews about theKing Holiday? Who was Dr. King and what was his struggle all about? America was supposed to be this place where anybody could achieve anything they wanted with hard work and latent ability, but that was not always true for everyone, was it. And we are talking about "history".
To get to why there was a need for a Dr. king, we have to talk about the Civil Rights movement, and why was there a need for that?
Then, we have to touch on "Jim Crow", the Civil War and Slavery. And yes, there were distinct victims and perpetrators. That truth cannot be avoided. You teach how this put certain people behind the eight ball for so long, as they had not been designated the "underdog" for so long for nothing.
That is why everything and everybody that seemed to have started it all never included people that looked like them.
And while the worst of all that is behind us, an accurate rendition of history has to include unpleasant truths. It has to be up to the parents and conscience of the students after being told the truth to accept the fact that they themselves are not the perpetrators. But if I promote a lie or half truth to make your grandkids comfortable, I would be lying to my own. The truth is the truth, I can't be concerned as to how others react to it.
The facts reveal perpetrators and victims and they are identified as people who lived in the past, so who is being shamed?
I do possess a degree in History and like most historians, we are not manipulated by a political party. Scholarships clearly shows the circumstances surrounding this nation's history, it is not a partisan matter.
When studying the Civil War should it be mentioned to school children that hundreds of black people during that time owned thousands of slaves? Many of them were members of the Freedman's Bureau. There were even black plantation owners in the south.
That information is out there and many books have been written about it. Many of them by black historians. This is a truth that has not been taught.
It might add perspective to the concept of slavery during the Civil War era.
Is it time to make certain this truth is made part of the teaching of American history?
There are other truths that are not provided in a basic American history.in my view, slavery was a crime of America's long dead. I feel slavery is part of our history and should be in our history books, and teachers should teach the truth. However, that truth need not include shaming today's white race as CRT does.
This was a sin of people that lived hundreds of years agelong ago, and a war was fought to free the country of slavery. That should speak loudly for "white people".
I would want my grandson to learn true empathy, not shame for something he had nothing to do with. Empathy is more powerful than shame. Empathy can work to stop the unjust treatment that we still see in our society. Shaming only invokes anger. Being made to feel shame over something one had no participation in --- yes, invokes anger, resentment, and more division.Telling the truth about perpetrators and victims will only concern and "shame" contemporary whites if they allow it to do so. There is no indication that the controversial CRT is being taught at K-12 level, despite the whining of conservative parents who say otherwise just to muzzle the reality of an unpleasant truth.
A war was fought to preserve the Union, as was made clear by Mr. Lincoln on numerous occasions. However, the war later became a moral crusade against the peculiar institution (slavery) and Lincoln and like minded men and citizens deserve some credit for the outcome.CRT is a law school construct used in law schools as a class students can elect. These concepts are not taught in our public schools. I can guarantee you that no teacher is teaching shame. This is just ridiculous. Parents who want their curriculum can walk into their school tomorrow and receive their curriculum word for word. I suggest that you do that for your very own district. This is just getting to be such outrageous nonsense at this point. Have you looked at the actual framework of crt? Do you think that any elementary School student or even Middle School student could grasp these concepts? CRT is being used as a buzzword. It's being used to stoke fear in parents who are generally uninvolved in their child's education. The fact that people would say teachers are teaching students to feel shame is just so outrageous to me.
McGraw-Hill recently had a textbook that referred to slaves as immigrants who were here for jobs... Come on now.
We have taught generation upon generation of children accurate history and now all of a sudden these children are too soft for it??
So Mike, I leave it to conservative to try to make some sort of equivalency between 12907 slaves owned by blacks from among the 2009043 slaves in America at 1830. According to renown African American historian Carl Woodson, that is 6/10th of 1 percent. Every situation and circumstances had anomalies, but that does not change the dominant theme here. You should know already, that I am not going to buy this.
You would be telling my kids a lie by presenting this travesty in a way that does not clearly show the differences in the impetus, numbers and occurrences. The handful of black slave owners were not responsible for Jim Crow or Black Codes that were legislated by the prime perpetrator just after the war, and we know with almost inerrant certainty who that was and you know that as well.....
So, go ahead and provide the factoid, because blacks did own slaves, but let's hear the rest of the story....
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How Many Slaves Did Blacks Own?
So what do the actual numbers of black slave owners and their slaves tell us? In 1830, the year most carefully studied by Carter G. Woodson, about 13.7 percent (319,599) of the black population was free. Of these, 3,776 free Negroes owned 12,907 slaves, out of a total of 2,009,043 slaves owned in the entire United States, so the numbers of slaves owned by black people over all was quite small by comparison with the number owned by white people. In his essay, " 'The Known World' of Free Black Slaveholders," Thomas J. Pressly, using Woodson's statistics, calculated that 54 (or about 1 percent) of these black slave owners in 1830 owned between 20 and 84 slaves; 172 (about 4 percent) owned between 10 to 19 slaves; and 3,550 (about 94 percent) each owned between 1 and 9 slaves. Crucially, 42 percent owned just one slave.That was in 1830.
The numbers were much higher in the 1850-1860s, BUT that is not the point.
Slavery was something done not by race but by society. It is not a shame that should be put on only white people but all people of that time. It was something that occurred worldwide. Blacks sold other blacks into slavery.
My family didn't get here until the 1890s. We took no part in the Civil War or slavery. So, should I be shamed for slavery? If that is the case, shouldn't blacks who are decedents of slave owners be shamed by the behavior of their ancestors?
OR
Should we teach this was an ill of culture and society at that time. Not of one particular race.So, let us go to 1860.
3000 blacks owned 20,000 slaves compared with whites that owned 3,953696 across the Southern and Border states. That is 1/2 of 1 percent.
Now that that has been corrected, I will need to correct you further.
Slavery in America was based on a racial caste system. Everybody that has ever cracked open a history book on the subject knows that. It is the conservatives that are determined to employ their spinmeister tactics to misdirect people as to the truth in this matter.
The number and sheer magnitude can reveal nothing else. So, as I say if the shoe fits, wear it. We won't have the truth whitewashed away through errant and inaccurate text materials and instruction.
Yes, it was an ill OVERWHEMINGLY imposed by one racial group over another as best as those groups could be and were identified at the time.
So yes, in America, Slavery was primarily fomented by one particular race to the detriment of another, any other conclusion is nothing more than a baldface lie.
And if your precious little charges are upset, I will offer some Kleenex to soften the blow, but the truth will not be denied.... and what should be done today? What is the purpose of contemporary awareness of what happened at that point in history?
What is the positive outcome that advocates of teaching CRT (to any age group) are after?
To college students?
To children?
to address what?
to correct what?
to teach what?History is history, I would not tell the Jews in Europe to forget that there was in fact a holocaust in much of Europe some 80'years ago. Those that forget and fail to learn from history could again be a victim, that's why.
What is the point of contemporary awareness to any historical period and event? Does study of history really need to be justified? You are always the one speaking of the Federalist Papers and such, isn't that an aspect of history?
This CRT is a red herring as it is not being taught below the college level. What are you all afraid of in regards to the truth? The theory can be debated at the university level, why are conservatives so keen on controlling the narrative all of the time?Is that what you see CRT and the WOKE crowd as? Simple, factual, unexaggerated history from centuries ago?
You don't see it as blaming modern whites for the crimes of other people simply because they share the same race? You don't see the exaggeration in it? You don't see the parts left out, with the same people "downtrodden" for centuries committing the same crimes?"You don't see it as blaming modern whites for the crimes of other people simply because they share the same race?"
No, Wilderness, I don't.
And yes, the truth is history verified by bonifide historians not rightwingers with agendas lacking qualifications, not truck drivers nor slingers of hash....
I am not talking about Ancient Rome, Greece or even Africa, I am speaking about the nature of American slavery and who were the victims and perpetrators. I do not speak about contemporary whites. White folks get upset to even face the possibility that perhaps their forebears were prime participants during this past period, and I can't do nothing about that. The truth is oftentimes is unpleasant...... I never have to explicitly state anything before Rightwinged whites get bent out of shape.
The real exaggeration is in the example given by Faye regarding published textbooks that state that slaves were in fact immigrants here for jobs. That is the exaggeration I see and loathe."White folks get upset to even face the possibility that perhaps their forebears were prime participants during this past period"
I have never known a single Caucasian that got upset because some slave owners were also Caucasian. Do you find that blacks are upset because their ancestors were slave owners, or worse that they captured others to sell to slavers? Or Indians? That would be a curious reaction to me - all of us have ancestors that did undesirable things if we just look far enough back. I do have to say, though, that I'm not very interested in my long dead ancestors. A handful of generations, that's all.
But if you don't see CRT, and even WOKE, as blaming modern whites for the ills of blacks then you haven't looked very hard. That is a the root of their complaint; that white folks do not take blame for what other whites did centuries ago.(However, whites were for the war on poverty, to help blacks;
yet voted (Joe Biden, for one) against equal rights amendments.
so, Ulp.
It seems the problem is not systematic racism, but welfare handouts and the consequence of diminished self-esteem and self-worth. And as Candace Owens and other black conservatives will tell you, the problem is the breakdown of the family, due to mothers who are paid for every child they conceive ... but only if no man is living with her, providing for them.That is OK, but we need to be honest about the fact that what was, was in fact what was.... I am not speaking about sociology, more than I am suggesting that conservatives are exaggerating the prevalence of CRT in grade schools and hiding behind the woke concepts in order to avoid frank discussions of disconcerting truth and facts surrounding American History. It is pretty transparent to me and doesn't work.
What occurred in the past is inviolate and immutable and should not be subject to lies and reinterpretations without any scholarly basis.
.
I do not speak about contemporary whites. White folks get upset to even face the possibility that perhaps their forebears were prime participants during this past period, and I can't do nothing about that. The truth is oftentimes is unpleasant"
Do you really believe this? I don't think most white people even feel it fair to associate them with slavery, due to it was literally something they did not participate in, nor would they condone slavery. I am white, I do not carry the crimes of that happened hundreds of years ago. We can't be responsible for others' actions that lived hundreds of years ago.
It is very obvious that we as a society should be able to come up with a curriculum to teach our children about slavery. The truth, and the truth about how the US dealt with slavery. After all, we did, did we not? Yes, it left long-lasting scars, that never should be ignored, or hidden. But it need not condemn anyone that walks the earth today. CRT does seek to blame modern whites for the racism we see today.
The racism we see today has been nurtured and left to grow. It is rooted, and in my view, it has nothing to do with slavery. But more to do with concepts that white folks have developed in regard to the black race. These concepts are somewhat also nurtured, thus racism lives on."We can't be responsible for others' actions that lived hundreds of years ago."
No, you can't. But that does not eliminate the fact that slavery existed here on a foundation of a racial caste. So, there were victims and there were perpetrators. Can I get anybody to admit that?
I missed it as you added to your comment......
I do not speak about contemporary whites. White folks get upset to even face the possibility that perhaps their forebears were prime participants during this past period, and I can't do nothing about that. The truth is oftentimes is unpleasant"
"It is very obvious that we as a society should be able to come up with a curriculum to teach our children about slavery. The truth, and the truth about how the US dealt with slavery. After all, we did, did we not? Yes, it left long-lasting scars, that never should be ignored, or hidden. But it need not condemn anyone that walks the earth today. CRT does seek to blame modern whites for the racism we see today."
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Yes, just asking for the truth, not fables or folklore. We would be deceiving ourselves if slavery and its immediate aftermath could be ignored or hidden. I opposed the idea of assigning blame to contemporary whites. But contemporary whites need to realize that if they are not a party to the Slavery, what is it that they need to be concerned about? We cannot be intimidated or frightened by the truth.
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"The racism we see today has been nurtured and left to grow. It is rooted, and in my view, it has nothing to do with slavery. But more to do with concepts that white folks have developed in regard to the black race. These concepts are somewhat also nurtured, thus racism lives on."
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It does not have anything to do with slavery but continued inequity and discrimination that continued well beyond slavery's eradication. White folks need to unnurture these attitudes and that could help."
Faye spoke about demonizing and banning from the classroom many African American history figures as being "woke". Is this how we find a way to learn to respect one another?The far right is really seeming to try to say that school districts are adding a healthy dose of shame or attempting to shame white students while they are teaching history. Which I find even more ridiculous than their idea that CRT is being taught to children.
Yes, most definitely there were victims. And these victims should be long remembered. And we as a society should feel great empathy for these souls. This empathy could be instilled with the truth of what slavery entailed. I only object to placing blame on an entire modern-day race.
Empathy, not guilt. We should be considering what affects black people today. Some American citizens have been deprived of their true lineage due to slavery.Wrong question. The right one is to ask whether anyone at all does not acknowledge that there were victims and there were perpetrators.
And the answer is that no, you will not find anyone that does not acknowledge that there were slaves and slave owners in America.
"CRT does seek to blame modern whites for the racism we see today."
I just cannot find any evidence of that. It's just a cheap political tactic used to score free points. It's in the category of scaremongering white people by distorting the concept they're using.
They are using the concept of CRT as a reason to ban MLK days in Virginia schools. Why? They are also banning indigenous peoples day. The trail of tears has essentially been removed from curriculum across the country. How does this make any sense? Considering CRT is a construct examined in law schools??
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj … ce-theory/I would add that those "forebears", whose actions contemporary whites are being punished for, are usually not ancestral at all. Given that an awful lot of whites immigrated after the civil war, that most white immigrants went to northern/western (non slave) states, the chance of having a slave owner in one's history is fairly slim.
Nevertheless, whites are taken to task for the sins of those people, related or not, because of the color of the skin is similar. My own "forebears" came into the NE states in about 1890 and promptly moved West, into Idaho... yet I am one of the "privileged" that are blamed for the ills of the black people because I and my light skinned ancestors are assumed to have owned slaves even though they did not.
Could anything be more racist?My ancestors came over on boats, I do have the privege of being able totrace them. All when arriving were looked down on and kept in an area with their: "own kind"... The many Europeans and English that came seemed to thrive, and become part of America, while still keeping their own traditions.
The American dream for many was sought out and obtained. Through hard work, and education. I feel the American dream was and still is something one can obtain. I instilled the Dream in my children, and they also thrived. With hard work, and education."All when arriving were looked down on and kept in an area with their: "own kind"
I never thought of that; mine were from Ireland and Wales and I don't think either were well received at the time. Perhaps that's why they only stayed in New England states a short time and went West.
Nor did they go to Portland or other existing town/city; they homesteaded on a plot of land that was, ironically, about 50 miles from where I now live. G'grandma was the first white woman to ever step foot in that valley; there was one other old hermit on the other side of it as the only neighbor.
They were so far out that when they came to the "city" (connecting to where I live) it was a three day trip one way. It now takes me about an hour to reach their home.
So maybe they were fleeing persecution as well - it would make sense."The American dream for many was sought out and obtained. Through hard work, and education. I feel the American dream was and still is something one can obtain. I instilled the Dream in my children, and they also thrived. With hard work, and education."
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That may be true more so today, but it was not always true for far too many, that very lack of opportunity for long has exacted a price...Yes, it is more true today. Do you feel the people that came over on the boats had it easy> They were well shunned, and ridiculed. They strived, worked grabbed at the opportunities. They came and blended in best they could by respecting America's traditions, and way of doing things while keeping their own traditions alive.
I truely feel for many decades now, our society as well as our Governments have worked to put racism in the past. I think there will always be more to do. But, perhaps it's time for black people to work on some of the problems that tend to create many social problems that plague them.Sharlee, as free people what hardship was so overwhelming relative to that of a slave? I can't see how you can even compare the two concepts? Hardship aside, you had choices, the slave had none. Toiling under the sweat of his brow for his daily bread just so someone else can eat it?
Blacks were treated worse than German prisoners of war here during WWII.
Government needs to continue to work and work harder, that effort is taken with greater seriousness by the Democrats that is why they get so much more of our support.
Within the backdrop of an ever improving society, we continue to work on our demons as to our self imposed social problemsMy comment was just to point out that many people that came to America had it very hard, but seem to thrive over all odds.
I don't know how to respond. It would seem I can't comprehend why Black people have not been able to thrive, as many migrants seem to have done. I think feeling that the government should look at Blacks differently than other citizens is a problem. This attitude goes to prove, that you might feel blacks need to be looked at as a race that needs to be cared for. That Blacks do not have the ability to blend into our society without being aided in some respects.
In my view, Democrats have truly rooted in Government that Blacks need to be looked at differently. So, does this not really add to the problems of racism? So ultimately you are supporting a party that does admittedly feel Black are different and need Government help to thrive?I don't think that anyone is promoting the idea that people of color should be looked at differently or need government help to thrive. I think it's more the need to address systemic racism that's still exists within our structures of employment, healthcare, the justice system and education. Seeking a level playing field, as I had mentioned in the area of Education.
What matters in life is the raising of children to be good citizens no matter what their circumstances.
Good citizens are happy citizens. Love of a child is what opens up the path toward a good life. Not money. Not equity through the equal distribution of money and supplies.
Only love, guided by logic and wisdom, the boundaries provided by the Bible or other spiritual guides, and an interesting environment conducive to the learning of concrete skills, contributes in a real way to the positive development of a child.
What good are schools which do not even teach real-life skills any more?
I mean really!!!!!!!
Have you checked the scores of US students?The No child Left behind act essentially throttled our students
teaching children through the computer throttles CHILDREN
Children aren't taught through computers rather they can have access to skills such as coding and other areas in software and engineering that may spur their interest in what is certainly a high paying career. Technology assists teaching it doesn't take its place. Like it or not, technology and computers are here to stay in the way of the future and those students who don't get exposure due to lack of funding will be virtually locked out of these high paying jobs.
I know. But what do you tell fellow employees and employers who can't believe these people have even been educated ... after they are hired, and it is discovered that they can't write, reason or do math???
?No one is getting rid of reading or writing or math, actually the software can greatly bolster those skills that are taught in the classroom
Technology is adjunct. It is a very helpful tool. Take a look at any of the high-priced private schools in your area and look at the resources they're able to utilize and also look at their price tag along with the success rates of their students.I've been working with my neighbor's grandchild, now ten, who I have been involved with since she was born. I have seen a lot during the twenty years I subbed K-12. However, I am Montessori trained. That is the problem. I see things in a much different light than you, and most, do.
So take it or leave it.
Not everyone is cut out for technological employment. It will be discovered that such pursuits are hard on the eyes, backs, bodies and psyches of PEOPLE.
Meanwhile, planes will fall out of the skies, bridges will crumble.
Buildings will be left to rot and infrastructures will break down.
We need concrete skills before technological skills.
We need people who can think realistically and not be completely addicted and dependent on computers.
The comment you have responded to was in response to a comment Cred directed y way. So actually yes, Cred was implying that Government needs to work harder for blacks in general. and shared that is why many vote for Dems.
Cred wrote -- Government needs to continue to work and work harder, that effort is taken with greater seriousness by the Democrats that is why they get so much more of our support.
My response. --- I don't know how to respond. It would seem I can't comprehend why Black people have not been able to thrive, as many migrants seem to have done. I think feeling that the government should look at Blacks differently than other citizens is a problem. This attitude goes to prove, that you might feel blacks need to be looked at as a race that needs to be cared for. I don't know how to respond. It would seem I can't comprehend why Black people have not been able to thrive, as many migrants seem to have done. I think feeling that the government should look at Blacks differently than other citizens is a problem. This attitude goes to prove, that you might feel blacks need to be looked at as a race that needs to be cared for. That Blacks do not have the ability to blend into our society without being aided in some respects.
In my view, Democrats have truly rooted in Government that Blacks need to be looked at differently. So, does this not really add to the problems of racism? So ultimately you are supporting a party that does admittedly feel Black are different and need Government help to thrive?
It would appear Cred feels that the government does need to work harder for his race. And truely feels that Democrats do that.I think we need to work harder in addressing systemic racism as it exists in our society. And I also think that our ancestors boat Trip was much different than the boat trip of slaves.
I agree we need to continue working on systemic racism. It is certainly worth noting that the trip people took to come to America was different than slave ships.
Cred and my comment were not about the ships that brought people to America, just what they did to thrive once they were here. I in no way was referring to black people that were enslaved. I was speaking about modern-day black people and the apparent problems they have had a very hard time overcoming, in contrast to migrants that chose to come to America. We have not had slavery for 157 years.
The conversation was about people that suffered adversities due to society's rejection. delving into why migrants faires in many cases better than modern-day Blacks.Yes we haven't had slavery for over 150 years but the effects of it haven't completely gone away. When slavery ended it wasn't as if most white folks just completely got on board with equality for everyone. Sadly, it feels like we have politicians stoking racial division more than ever. Politicians understand that a certain percent of our population is still pretty racist and they play to that. We need a level playing Field across the board in many aspects of our society that we still just don't have. Starting from day one when a child enters kindergarten in a disadvantaged district.
The effect of having a dagger stabbed in your back does not disappear all of the sudden just because the dagger has been removed....
We are talking over 100 years ago. Are you saying due to psychological issues many black people can't seem to thrive, and do expect help from the government in some incidences? Have they become psychologically dependent on the Government, instead of depending on themselves?
Slavery was over 150 years ago, but Jim Crow being abolished was only in the last 60-70 years, mandates from the government eliminating unfair real estate practices about the same time. So the dagger really was removed within my lifetime, not exactly ancient history, Sharlee....
Not to mention systemic racism. Did anyone see the report on the black couple that was given an appraisal of their home for significantly less than was a white couple who posed as owners of the very same home?
What bothers me most about some of what I'm reading here is the fact that some aren't recognizing that society can put up barriers for certain folks and then we turn around and blame them for not scaling those barriers consistently.
https://youtu.be/rHMqc4ntnZAThank you, Faye. I have heard stories like this much too often. So who is trying to tell me that we are in a post racial environment? People will tell you that these occurrences are isolated and excuse them. The piece indicates that they are more common than we would expect. The question remains with me WHY do white people go out of their way to do these things yet continue to blame black people for "whining"?
I would say to teach certain people the appropriate lessons, blacks families need to be extremely litigious or take a pattern of becoming more so. The same remedy I propose when there are violations from police due to inappropriate or illegal behavior. Sue and sue, as if your lives depend on it, leaving a strong message for tax payers and society in general. A bite from their pocketbook might discourage them and others in the future.
Its the American way!"The question remains with me WHY do white people go out of their way to do these things yet continue to blame black people for "whining"?"
Perhaps for the same reason black people go out of their way to demand that white people pay for what they want - white people that have zero connection to them or to racism of any kind. Because it gains them wealth.
" Did anyone see the report on the black couple that was given an appraisal of their home for significantly less than was a white couple who posed as owners of the very same home?
"
There are over 340 million people in America. Do you feel this one incident the media bandied about should be considered something that happens to most Black people buying homes? Could have the person that gave a lowball evaluation, looking for a fast sale? We know little about this incident, only what the media fed up.
There have been safety nets for such racist activities
HOUSING DISCRIMINATION UNDER THE FAIR HOUSING ACT
Statutes
Fair Housing Act
42 U.S.C. §§ 3601-19
Title VIII of the Civil Rights Act of 1968 (Fair Housing Act), as amended, prohibits discrimination in the sale, rental, and financing of dwellings, and in other housing-related transactions, because of race, color, religion, sex (including gender identity and sexual orientation), familial status, national origin, and disability. It also requires that all federal programs relating to housing and urban development be administered in a manner that affirmatively furthers fair housing.
Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964
42 U.S.C. § 2000d-1
Title VI prohibits discrimination on the basis of race, color, and national origin in programs and activities receiving federal financial assistance.
I don't think I have read a comment here from any user that repudiates that we still today have systemic racism. I have a question why it still exists for many decades? It is very clear our Government has pursued the problem vigorously.
Not blaming just asking questions...All of these acts took place during the 1960s, hardly over 150 years ago.
Conservatives always want to blame media when information is revealed that indicate bias is still a good part and parcel of American life. Are the incidents really isolated? Why was the initial lowball appraisal corrected by the appraiser once it was believed that a white person was the seller?
I know that if I live long enough to need to sell this house, I am going to have it shown by one of my white buddies, to make certain that I get a fair appraisal."don't think I have read a comment here from any user that repudiates that we still today have systemic racism. I have a question why it still exists for many decades? It is very clear our Government has pursued the problem vigorously. "
You know what answers your question? CRT.... Your exact question is what the theory proposes to answer.
"Critical Race Theory, or CRT, is an academic and legal framework that denotes that systemic racism is part of American society — from education and housing to employment and healthcare. Critical Race Theory recognizes that racism is more than the result of individual bias and prejudice. It is embedded in laws, policies and institutions that uphold and reproduce racial inequalities. According to CRT, societal issues like Black Americans’ higher mortality rate, outsized exposure to police violence, the school-to-prison pipeline, denial of affordable housing, and the rates of the death of Black women in childbirth are not unrelated anomalies."
I discussed here how I felt that our public school system is a prime example of systemic/structural racism. It's baked in due to its funding scheme. Our school system reproduces, perpetuates racial inequality.You may have missed my comment in regard to federal funding and the majority goes to poverty areas. And for 8 years has had substantial increases. My point the Federal government seems to provide ample funding. It would seem we need to have accounts of how the money is being spent. Perhaps more funds are needed or perhaps not.
I feel the Government has worked hard on legislation to at best try to stop discrimination.
Public schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade (K-12) are financed through a combination of local, state, and federal dollars in proportions that vary across and within states. In the 2019–2020 school year, the most recent data available, spending for public K-12 education totaled $771 billion from all sources, reflecting an INCREASE for the EIGHT consecutive year."
Funds from Federal Government 25.7 billion 2019 - 2020
FEDERAL FUNDING PROGRAMS FOR K-12
Title I ESEA
Title I grants provide funds to school districts serving large shares of low-income students. It is the largest grant program of ESEA . Title I grants provide funds to school districts serving large shares of low-income students. It is the largest grant program of ESEA, totaling $14.1 billion during the 2019–2020 school year.
1.low-income families (which account for 97 percent of eligible children);
2.institutions for neglected or delinquent children or in foster homes; and
3.families receiving Temporary Assistance for Needy Families payments.
Part B IDEA and Other Programs
During the 2019–2020 school year, the federal government provided $11.6 billion in IDEA grants to states. Those funds are awarded through a formula based on a state's total population with disabilities between the ages of 3 and 21, the percentage of those individuals living in poverty,
In addition -
The federal government also allocated $15.6 billion for child nutrition, which was used to reimburse schools that provided free or reduced-price lunches to eligible students. About $4.4 billion of federal funds went directly to school districts for various programs including Impact Aid, Indian Education, Head Start, Follow Through, Magnet Schools, Dropout Demonstration Assistance, and Gifted and Talented. In addition, the federal government provided $0.6 billion for vocational programs and $11.5 billion on the aforementioned programs for which reporting units could not provide distinct amounts.
All true... I feel the Government has tried to do what it can in regard to trying to help stop discrimination.
Cred, this subject is huge, and hard to discuss even for one as bold as me.
In the end, I have many thoughts on the subject. When discussing systemic racism I put much of what I think on a back burner. I always come back to the old adage, --- " walk a mile in another's shoes".The fact that you willing to engage and not hide is noteworthy. Look how long it has taken for needed corrections to actually be accomplished since the slaves were freed? The real picture from my standpoint is much larger and having too many negative connotations than I would be comfortable with.
To reiterate, there are Black people ( I am a Black woman) love to use slavery as an excuse. Yes, slavery occurred & it was horrific. However, those who were enslaved anticipated better days in which their descendants would have better opportunities. There was reconstruction in which Black had somewhat better opportunities then that promise was crushed. However, there was a hope that Blacks would succeed despite obstacles.
Blacks succeed & then was crushed; however, this suppression inspired Blacks to succeed even more. There were Blacks who succeeded in the worst oppressive days. They built their own communities, thriving communities. However, there were Blacks who adapted defeatism & inculcated their descendants in that philosophy. They told their children that odds were insurmountable because they were Black. They felt inferior & act inferior, accepting crumbs.
There are Blacks who believe that they are somehow inferior. They believe that they are somehow subpar. They see others as superior. They feel that they are so behind & that other people should lift them. They feel that they are incapable of lifting themselves because of slavery, poverty, & other circumstances. To tell the true, they love being victims. They have such a solace being victims. They are deathly afraid to better themselves as they want to be in that negative narrative.Other than slavery are those traits any different for poor whites or poor Hispanics?
In all respect to your opinion, why would slaves anticipate better days ahead? They would have no reason to expect emancipation prior to the Civil War. They had been enslaved for generations what else should they had anticipated for either themselves or their progeny? The government and society reneged on promises to the new freedmen after the war ended. Lincoln had the right idea and approach, but did not live to see its fruition. Instead an unrepentant pro southerner, Andrew Johnson, tried to deny the freeman every acknowledgment and accommodation.
What success Blacks had in the aftermath of the Civil War and the onset of Reconstruction were few and over many and virtually insurmountable obstacles, so why sugar coat it, Grace? Many of the "successful" communities were ransacked and destroyed, Tulsa, 1921.
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...by 1860, there were more millionaires (slaveholders all) living in the lower Mississippi Valley than anywhere else in the United States. In the same year, the nearly 4 million American slaves were worth some $3.5 billion, making them the largest single financial asset in the entire U.S. economy, worth more than all manufacturing and railroads combined. So, of course, the war was rooted in these two expanding and competing economies—but competing over what? What eventually tore asunder America's political culture was slavery's expansion into the Western territories.
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How much of that stolen labor and subsequent wealth would been better applied building wealth for myself instead of for others? It was a tremendous crime and a theft of unimaginable magnitude.
The odds WERE insurmountable because systemic racism in America for 100 years after emancipation and beyond made certain that they were.
If it wasn't for political activism and the court gavel during the 20th century, there is no reason for me to believe that the picture would have changed on its own. You beat people up long enough and they psychologically attempt to make accommodations with those that oppress them. This is true where ever similar caste systems rear their head.
But, today, much of your points are well taken. I lived in Hawaii and associated with Black and Japanese people and families. The differences are interesting to observe. At a market in Hilo, I was redfaced embarrassed when a Black man, drunk, was "carrying on" at a grocery outlet. A Japanese family was walking by trying to get around this fellow and his mindless ravings.
We are, particularely those having a social economic status of being poor tend to be self indulgent and lacking in self discipline and self control. I dislike those that cannot control themselves. Characteristics that are part and parcel of values for the Japanese. If I had to criticize, they appear to be somewhat self inhibited and quite insular in their behavior. Subordinating their personal and individual desires in favor of the well being of the collective or family.
But, I would certainly like to see more of us adopt their attitudes to a greater extent
So, the point that I make is that while you are wrong about much, there are portions of your opinion that has merit."At a market in Hilo, I was redfaced embarrassed when a Black man, drunk, was "carrying on" at a grocery outlet."
Cred, this is, I think, a big part of why you and I cannot agree on much when it comes to racism. There is no possible reason for you to be embarrassed about the actions of anyone, let alone a stranger that you have no dealings at all with. But you were, simply because you share the same color of skin (at least within a wide range). You identify with that, you view as a major part and parcel of who you are. The color of your skin defines you in a manner that I cannot truly comprehend for I do not share that concept in even the smallest degree. The color of my skin, whether on my or a stranger, does not define me at all; who and what I am comes from my actions throughout my life. Certainly not from what someone else with the same color of outer layer does.An interesting line of inquiry, Wilderness.
Colorblind is an ideal but certainly not a reality in this society. Much of the time, the ideal and the reality are far apart.
From a historical standpoint, why would whites be intimidated by the behavior of those long dead who just happen to have looked like them? This discussion has reached national proportions.
We live in tribal conditions, judging a man for the content of his character beyond the color of his skin remains an ideal yet to be realized.
The reality is that we remain tribal by ethnic, religion, and even gender, etc. There was a certain race based pride with the ascension of Barack Obama to the Presidency, just as there was that pride when JFK won the office as the first Catholic.
While you may not share the concept, you are sensitive to it, i.e., the CRT issues. None of us live on an island, we are rife with stereotypes and biases that permeate far than it does not. Tribalism has been responsible for death and violence from the beginning, am I so naive to think that it is just going to go away? This is human nature and not solely an American cultural trait.
Where does you assessment as people "being just individuals" exist anywhere?
So, yes, Wilderness, I cringe when someone of my race or ethnicity sets a bad example because there are many that use that example to support continued racism, stereotypes and biases. That, Which again, stands in the way of the ideal, people being judged individually based on their own merit.....When I see other Black people acting in stereotypical ways, I become highly incensed. I view these people manifesting behavior which puts all of us Blacks in a negative light. I especially become incensed at Black women who act uncouth i.e. ghetto. It makes my blood boil. Yes, I see so much negative behavior, especially from some of our younger generations, even the solidly middle class. As Black people, we were always admonished to be on OUR BEST BEHAVIOR as EYES are on us. There is always a subconscious expectation by others that we WON'T be on our best behavior.
We were always seen as THE OTHER in America. Yes, we had harder roads than any other racial/ethnic group. We have to fight harder & not give in to negative, defeatist behavior. There is a saying that Blacks must be twice to thrice (my wording) as good as others just to get into the door & continue to be thus in order to succeed. We Blacks should never be mediocre but strive for excellence. The book BRAINWASHED-Chellenging the Myth of Black Inferiority by Tom Burrell, who is Black, discussed in detail Black stereotypical behavior & mindset.
Oftentimes, the worst enemy for Black people are other Black people who refuse to see beyond the racial paradigm. I was often called a White girl because I liked classical & rock'n'roll music. My parents preached excellence & wouldn't tolerate anything less. Many Black parents are quite lackadaisical regarding parenting. They didn't set proper guidelines for their children. If their children didn't perform up to standards, so what. In many Black homes, intellectualism isn't taught. Even among middle, upper middle & upper-class Blacks, being social is emphasized over being intellectual. I overheard one Black woman bragging on how social her son is, adding that her son was a C student. I was told in elementary school by a classmate (also Black) that I had no personality although I was an A student while she was at the BOTTOM of her class. In my extended maternal family, intellectualism was never stressed nor was educational & socioeconomic achievement. The succedent generation of the family as just as impoverished as my maternal grandparents were-because they had the entitled, gimme mentality. Blacks have to discard the negative, slave mentality & become pro-active. Blacks have to stop being society's bottom feeders."Oftentimes, the worst enemy for Black people are other Black people who refuse to see beyond the racial paradigm."
I have a black friend who is a conservative Republican. Other blacks he's known since growing up, other black people as well as white liberals who see him for the first time have told him, to his face, "You aren't black."
Here is a man who was raised in a single-parent home with three other brothers, grew up in the projects of a large city, joined the military, fought in a war, got a college education, started a business and became quite successful.
I have a feeling you and him would have much in common. He told me once about attending a difficult class in finance at university. He was the getting the highest score in the class after the mid-terms, other blacks in the class gave him a bad time and told him to stop acting white.
He also told me when you are black and successful, you are looked down on by certain whites because you break their stereotypes of black people. There are always blacks who can't stand your success and want to bring you down to their level. They get angry when you refuse to be ashamed of your success in business.
He recently told me there is institutional racism by blacks and white liberals against successful black people like him.
I find it interesting."I have a black friend who is a conservative Republican. Other blacks he's known since growing up, other black people as well as white liberals who see him for the first time have told him, to his face, "You aren't black."
I would not have said that because by just looking at him, obviously he is Black.
I can't deny many of your points. In my university days, African exchange students were the stark example of people who did not play around and were there to get the needed education to return to their country. They neither understood nor supported the socio-political games played by American blacks and neither did I. But that does not excuse racism and bias that is already here.
Whites look down on your successful friend in dismay as to how did he negotiate the minefields that we so carefully laid, to beat the system and become successful?
There are many Blacks that are jealous, as I consider jealousy the more loathsome of human character traits. Institutional racism is not the same as a cultural anomaly. Everybody knows that whites control the overwhelming majority of wealth in this country and to believe that they are being put upon as victims.......
The black group is the only one that puts the behavior of its poor and most destitute members as a cultural norm and icon for the entire group. How many times have I caught myself saying "boy, why don't you pull your pants up?"
Yes, we have to fight harder, but I don't expect the majority to constantly put impediments in my path. A certain amount of the blame has to be properly placed here.
The racial issue still exists but like you say TODAY, it does not have to necessarily define the outcome, if you are prepared to deal with it. This does mean become pro-active and outwitting those that would put up barriers. Racists are generally quite dumb and can be circumvented if you are prepared to do it with the ruthlessness necessary.
We have to take on the approaches that Jews and Asians have to accredit for much of their success, keep cards close to the vest, being more insular, circling the wagons, etc.Finally, we are in concurrence here. To face racism head on, one has to be superior. One has to study harder & achieve higher. One has to go far above & beyond. That is what the strong among us have done. It is the weak who succumb to the racist's expectation. I refuse to do that. To show the racist that one has dignity & class is SUCH A BLOW to the racist's inferior ego. It is the racist who is inferior-only inferior, fearful people are threatened by others. This & other threads are inspiring me to write future Hubstories. Jews are great examples of succeeding, even thriving despite oppression. So are Asians.
"being more insular, circling the wagons, etc."
And thereby increasing racism in America. That's what happens when the tribe insulates itself, declaring that they are different (better, worse, whatever) than other races (tribes).Well, wilderness, what am I supposed to do when an appraiser reduces by hundreds of thousands of dollars the value of my property, when after this when the owner is believed to be white, the proper assessment is made?
I can't take fairness for granted. I am risk adverse and will neutralize and eliminate any and all adverse possibilities to accomplishing my objectives. I anticipate it and do it in advance. So, I don't know how frequent the practice is, but I know that it has occurred and I won't chance it happening to me. So, I will do what that black couple did at the start, having a white friend stand in as the owner.
Only when this society the society is truly colorblind and not just claim to be can I afford to operate without "shields up"
Your tribe and culture from its historical behavior has made it clear that there are differences that have been used to adversely affect the life course of many outside of it. So, I don't need to make the distinction, you have done that already.
But, I need to defend myself and I will take precautions. When race disparities without a justifiable cause disappear, then I won't need to apply my "secret sauce".Credence2, not to digress. There were two intraracial situations that I experienced. This co-worker, a Jamaican American, came from St. Albans, Queens. She made a remark about people who were born in Harlem. She indicated that those who were born in Harlem were poor & uncouth, mentioning Black stereotypical behavior. She was laughing loudly. She indicated that she was attending FIT & was going to be a designer. However, she was a lazy employee who never advanced far. She is still dreaming. Another incident was a subordinate, who was also Black, asked me where I was from. I stated Harlem. She said I was so refined & that people who came from Harlem were rough & ghetto.
I want to address your first paragraph. You are so correct that there are Blacks who idolize what is the worse aspects. Conservative pundit Candace Owens stated the exact same thing. They exalt the street & thug culture as "authentic" & "black" while viewing education & achievement as "white." That is damaging as well as ludicrous. There are even middle class Blacks who have the struggle, impoverished mindset. They exalt struggle & basic survival, not to mention hard-times.
As a teenager, I never watched GOOD TIMES. I saw that show as glorifying ghetto, low income life. I watched THE JEFFERSONS instead. I identified more w/upwardly moblie Blacks than low income Blacks. I find low income Blacks to be quite problematic. They are the ones who are reinforcing the negative, almost debased image of Black people."I want to address your first paragraph. You are so correct that there are Blacks who idolize what is the worse aspects. Conservative pundit Candace Owens stated the exact same thing. They exalt the street & thug culture as "authentic" & "black" while viewing education & achievement as "white." That is damaging as well as ludicrous. There are even middle class Blacks who have the struggle, impoverished mindset. They exalt struggle & basic survival, not to mention hard-times."
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It is certainly one of those areas where the Black ethnic culture needs to clean house.
Funny, you mentioned the Jeffersons, I wrote about addressing the very same concern many years ago.
Almost 50 years ago, the the deeper implications of these comic sitcoms got away from me, they were just funny. Not much longer than 10 years before, there was a dearth of blacks on television. Such that when we were kids, we were called over by parents when one was featured on any tv program.
https://discover.hubpages.com/politics/ … ca-Part-II
"Well, wilderness, what am I supposed to do when an appraiser reduces by hundreds of thousands of dollars the value of my property, when after this when the owner is believed to be white, the proper assessment is made?"
Personally I would find a couple of honest appraisers, and then take the matter to the authorities. Courts if necessary, but whatever it takes to see them punished for illegal activity.
What I would NOT do is "circle the wagons" and cower inside with others like me, accomplishing nothing but raising anger.
"Only when this society the society is truly colorblind and not just claim to be can I afford to operate without "shields up""
But the society cannot be colorblind, not when those like you make a huge issue of it at every opportunity. It takes ALL of us, not just whites, to have a racist free society. From my perspective, the pendulum is swinging the other way, and it is the black folk that are far more racist than whites now. It can be seen in the WOKE, it is found in CRT, it is in our courts as Asians sue for being discriminated against in favor of blacks.
Yes, you need to defend yourself against racism. So do I. So does everyone on the planet. But that does not mean becoming what you (and I) so disparage. It does not mean hiding behind the color of the skin. It does not mean taking up the mantle stereotype based on skin color.
It means to not put up with it. Whether exhibited by one of your own race or another, do not put up with it. Don't hide from that black man behaving badly; take him to task for it! You expect me to do the same - follow your own advice."Personally I would find a couple of honest appraisers, and then take the matter to the authorities. Courts if necessary, but whatever it takes to see them punished for illegal activity."
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Well, Wilderness, every now and then you get it right. Like a broken clock is right at least twice a day. But jokes aside, I should take your advice.
I tend to like to put adversaries in a position where they can't do something over the fact they won't do it, being overly cautious and risk adverse. But, I have made a mountain out of ant hill. What need do I have for a space suit to explore Waikiki Beach?
Sharlee, may well be right, we have been overwhelmed by a sensationalist media, that may well take isolated incidents and make them appear as common occurrences.
Neither I nor anyone I know has been subject to the treatment the black couple has received regarding this appraisal issue.
I have no reason to believe that once such a problem does occur there is not a remedy within the law and that the grievance would not be properly addressed. I received a pretty penny as part of a class action lawsuit against big bank mortgage lenders targeting minorities for sub prime lending practices, two or three years ago. The system worked, so I need not be draconian regarding perceived remedies against adverse treatment.
As Grace indicates, many problems are socio-economic in nature. The conclusion may well be that race is not necessarily at the root of all of them. Myself and the Missus played by the rules and I did my bit for God and Country and received everything that was promised and more.
I need to break free of the temporal nexus that Ken and other poster has mentioned before. While I live deep in Dixieland, we have experienced nothing but courtesy and a welcoming environment. Fifty years ago is not today, and it is not fair of me not to note improvements at least from the standpoint of my world in race relations.
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But tribes and tribal behavior has been and always will be part of human nature. They could identify themselves as religious, ethnic, gender, nationality, etc. The key is that just because they are different, they should not be subject to adversity because they are different or claim to be.
Because from the last election, the country moved away from the red wave and its threats to democracy, I remain hopeful and "bullish" on America.
Just get away from restricting books based solely on ideas and tell the truth about American history, neither veering to the Left nor the Right.
Otherwise, it turns out to be a good year.
I remain a "lefty" liberal for many reasons that go far beyond just race oriented issues, but you already know that.
PS, I am not the type to confront any drunk man, regardless of color. I am not interested in receiving a knuckle sandwich for my trouble.Credence2, many of our country's problems are socioeconomic & cultural. It is the socioeconomically disenfranchised of all races who are vehemently discontented. The socioeconomically disenfranchised Caucasians see their way of life "disappearing", particularly in terms of jobs. To clarify this, it is Caucasians in the lower socioeconomic rungs i.e. working & lower middle class who see their jobs disappearing, either overseas or viewing the other i.e. non-whites taking their jobs away. Some of these younger Caucasians were ripe for extremist groups.
Blacks in the lower rungs are ripe for revolution & attracted to pro-Black extremists. They, like poorer Caucasians, see outside forces as the blame. They feel left out & want remedies. It is the lower rungs who are the most dissatisfied. They want change in one form or another. Even the solidly middle classes of various racial/ethnic groups are beginning to feel disenfranchised. The only ones who AREN'T affected are the upper middle, uppermost middle, & upper classes of various races/ethnic groups. They HAVE IT MADE, thank God.Yes, their way of life is disappearing not because of great replacement theories, but instead due to technological innovation and the corporate mindset to pursue ever cheaper labor. These same corporate forces are creating the impression that immigrants are invading and those in a worse state are here to take their jobs, to draw attention away from themselves.
I only see pro white extremists as the real threat. Where are there any black organized movements on par with Fuentes, Proud Boys or 3 percenters?
Economic pressure is having its effects further up the socioeconomic ladder than in the past.
The wealthy cannot rest on their laurels as what wealth they have may well depend on those on the lower rungs that are willing to work to line their pockets without meaningful reform. In that sense, Everyone is affected."I only see pro white extremists as the real threat. Where are there any black organized movements on par with Fuentes, Proud Boys or 3 percenters?"
I would have to say that the BLM riots have done far, far more damage to the country and to our citizens than all of those combined. The violence of the riots we see to today is beyond belief; it would never have been allowed just a couple of decades ago. The economic damage alone from the Proud Boys pales beside that from BLM riots.
In addition, no one likes the skinheads, and wherever they put down roots they are disliked and often kicked out. We did it in the redneck state of Idaho and others can as well.This excerpt explains how I see the difference.
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The Black Lives Matter movement was founded in 2013 after the verdict in the murder trial for the killing of Trayvon Martin, a Black teenager who was killed while walking home in Florida.
Amid a racial reckoning in 2020, BLM protests across the country fought against racial injustice, police brutality and advocated for numerous Black Americans that had been violently killed.
Neil said it's important to make the distinction between the Black Lives Matter movement and the Capitol siege.
"One movement, in the case of Black Lives Matter, is really a critique, an attempt to undermine white supremacy. In the latter case, what happened at the Capitol in January was an attempt to buttress white supremacy."
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When viewing the world as outside of a tribal aspect, if a series of adverse events happen to one identifiable group of individuals without justification over others, would I not be justified in coming to certain conclusions?
White supremacy and white nationalism in their manifestos seek the annihilation and/or permanent subordination of Jews and non whites. I have never heard of these kinds of threats from BLM or Antifa.
So, there it is, that tribe and group affiliation example on a lighted billboard.I have two problems with BLM: 1) the use of violence and domestic terrorism to promote a cause and 2) the demands (now mostly private or gone) that blacks should have their own laws separate from everyone else. Both are a complete game stop for me. It puts them right up there with white nationalists in the demand that only they can make the rules for everyone.
The skinheads and other fringe groups of white nationalism are, in my thinking, a disgusting hold over from 300 years ago. Tribalism carried to the extreme, and an insistence that they control all other people in all respects. They get no respect at all from me - only disgust and a desire to completely ignore them (I know - not a reasonable solution). If I could I would put them all into a huge enclave and let them destroy each other.Well, with the virtual thousands of BLM protests around the world in 2020 being peaceful, 93 percent, I do not consider BLM to be a terrorist organization. Reminds me of the time when J Edgar Hoover and his sort said the Civil Rights Movement was a national threat being Communist inspired. This sort of thinking never really changes....
It is a bit volumous, but I read it all.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics … ce-system/
And while I want to avoid being "tribal", I need an explanation as to the disparity in regards to law enforcement, legal and judicial practices as well as incarceration, punishment etc. when individuals who have white skin and those who have black are examined. The disparities go beyond justifiable objective explanations for the disparities. We are no longer in a world of Mayberry and Sheriff Taylor.
A recent Scientific American article has indicated that the use of force accosting of any citizen by police has been reduced in communities with BLM protests. The positive pressure of requiring police to have operable body cams, the pressure on municipal departments to rein in their Cowboys or face endless lawsuits just might direct some attention toward holding everyone accountable for their behavior regardless of race. The Black tribe initiated it because statistically they were subject to more abuse.
So, the issue is about parity, not "special rights".
The problem is that in right wing circles in general, just because you don't wear a hood and are not bald does not mean that the attitudes that are associated with these people have gone away. A certain political party has cohabitated with this sort, and while they may attempt to conceal it, this sort remains an ever growing voice amongst their numbers."Well, with the virtual thousands of BLM protests around the world in 2020 being peaceful, 93 percent, I do not consider BLM to be a terrorist organization."
And what percentage of American BLM protests involve destruction or violence? I guarantee it is more than 7%.
"The disparities go beyond justifiable objective explanations for the disparities."
You're going to have to list those "justifiable objective explanations" for any reasonable discussion. Be sure to include the large difference in poverty rates between blacks and whites.
"The problem is that in right wing circles in general, just because you don't wear a hood and are not bald does not mean that the attitudes that are associated with these people have gone away."
Fair enough; those negative attitudes have not gone to zero. They are far below what they were just a few decades ago, but still above zero. And always will be, just as the negative attitudes of some blacks concerning whites in general will be.
But another problem is that in left wing circles in general is a refusal to consider that any problems are caused by blacks in general. Not specific to individuals, but in general. A higher poverty rate, a lower nuclear family rate (2 parents with or without kids). Too many do not encourage education, or think it of value. Calling other successful blacks names indicating they are not black in nature. Eliminate these (and others), or even work toward eliminating them, and many of those with an attitude will lose it.Well, Wilderness, here is an excerpt from a Wikipedia article that counters your "guarantee" that BLM violence and property damage exceeded 7 percent, where is your evidence to prove otherwise?
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peaceful; an estimated 93%–96.3% of demonstrations were peaceful and nondestructive, involving no injuries or no property damage.[14][15][16] However, police made arrests in about 5% of protest events (deploying chemical irritants in 2.5% of events); 3.7% of protest events were associated with property damage or vandalism (including damages by persons not involved in the actual demonstration); and protesters or bystanders were injured or killed in 1.6% of events.[15] Clashes and other forms of violence were at various times initiated by protestors, by counterprotestors, and by police,[15] and were usually driven by opportunistic criminals rather than organized extremist groups.[17]
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I will come back with what I considered disparities between how people are treated in society that cannot be explained by their individual actions.
But they need to get much closer to zero for me to have the confidence in the non racial society you seem to allude to. I suppose that would include us all.
Equal opportunity helps to blunt relatively higher poverty rates. I do not deny that there are many negative aggravating circumstances within much of the culture. I just say that that does explain all the disparity, nor that those aspects are to be dismissed rather than blaming blacks for ALL of their own problems. How many negative attitudes do whites hold against blacks without justification? Or, perhaps those based on stereotypes or just fear of the "other" which is usually part of the conservative mindset, fear of what is different?You may be correct. I didn't find your wikipedia article, but did find others. One in particular, went into some details, including that 7500 protests between may and August of that year (Floyd's death) - I had no idea that there were a tenth that many. And the figure of 93% non-violent was used, with "violent" being defined about what I would have used.
It appears I am the victim of media, in that they only report the violent ones, so the assumption becomes a negative one. I owe an apology for this one.
https://time.com/5886348/report-peaceful-protests/
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As we've both acknowledged, tribalism is alive and well in America, as it is everywhere. It will never go away, not in our lifetimes or that of our children or their children.
But it can be degraded from what it was and what it is now...if all participate (not including the racists). That includes all races, not just whites. The current method of degrading whites and assigning blame to people that are absolutely blameless will NOT accomplish the goal.
The problem I see is that your idea of "equal opportunity" means plowing money into the problem, a "solution" that does not, has not and will not work.
Take schools as an obvious example: inner city schools are notoriously bad, but why? Because of gang activity that is allowed? Because children do not have 2 parents pushing for education? Because parents do not find education to be of value? Because school policy is to treat all children the same, whether they want to learn or not (I refer to giving passing grades to failing work, keeping disruptive children in school, etc.).
My state has towns with schools so small (and underfunded) that they remind us of the old one room schoolhouse. Yet the education there is better than many inner city schools. It's not money; it's attitude.
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How many negative attitudes to blacks hold against whites without justification? I'd say about the same number as whites hold against blacks, or possibly more, and CRT is exacerbating that particular problem.I appreciate the fact that you did look it up.
About the schools, are they equally funded? Do they have equal facilities and qualified teachers? It is both the money and the attitude, we need to work within our own group to address 1 part, while society in general looks at the other part. Not all black parents are the same nor are all students the same. In fairness, the benefit of the doubt should apply rather than assume the negative applies to everybody.
There are more black single parents, but whites are not free of that disadvantage to the point where it can be considered a badge solely of the black community.No, they are most certainly NOT funded the same. But will it help to throw more money at a school that is under attack and the parents do not care? Fix the one before taking money from people in a fruitless effort to improve an unimprovable school. Start by suspending children that act up and failing those that do not perform...while ignoring the cries of racism over those actions.
Of course whites are not free from single parent families. Does that mean that blacks are to be given a "bye" from the problem? I think not; "While 21 percent of white children live in a single-parent family, the proportion increases to 28 percent of Hispanic children and is 51 percent of Black children." Those figures are astounding and are a major reason for children failing to become productive citizens.
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/543 … 0children.
The problem is that single parent families (usually with the mother only) are far more likely to be in poverty, and poverty is a major influence on how well a child does in school. After mental deficiency it is perhaps the single biggest reason for failure in school. IMO - others may have different thoughts.
So...fix the poverty and children will do better, regardless of race (one could look at the results for children in median to upper incomes and compare it to those that are poor). But fixing the poverty will include a strong nuclear family unless we wish to have a permanent subclass of people living off the efforts of others.We automatically assume the parents don't care so we deny equal finding that is at the heart of equal education opportunity.
Poor
Underfunded schools lack relevant conventional teaching facilities, it would appear that society does not care and the status quo that I complain about continues. How much of this commonly held belief about parents not caring and black youngsters out of control is just another stereotype?
A gain,when it comes to the Black Community, its worse aspects are the ones that get all of the attention. Sort of a contemporary reverse CRT?
Yes, it all comes down to money, or most of it. Poverty and economic inequity makes challenges for parents not suffered by their well heeled counterparts. Job availability, opportunity and open doors for the willing and able is always a possible solution.
You are right about the single parent scenario and it is difficult to know what to do about it. Nuclear families are a waning trend in the society in general. You point to the nature of interpersonal relationships within our community and the problem of the 51 percent of children living with a single mother head of household as our problem to be corrected. And, it is.
In this comment, your point is well taken and I am dismayed as it points to a permanently structured underclass within society.Credence, that single parent family is but one problem. The thing is that we KNOW how to get out of poverty...but "your people" not only refuse to do it, they chastise those that do.
Why is crime so tolerated in inner cities while at the same time trying to defund the police that keep at least somewhat in check? Why are children allowed to run with the gangs instead of going to school? Why are children allowed to control schools with their misbehavior? Why are teachers so mistreated, with no one objecting?
"Your people" are being taught, and trained, to live off of charity, financial and otherwise...and are feeding that swill into their mouths with both hands. Until they learn personal responsible, for themselves and their neighborhood, nothing will change.The Black lower class ( disclaimer: I am a Black woman) has a dysfunctional culture. They have children they can ill afford. They inculcate their children with negativity i.e. education is a waste of time, street culture is far superior, to be academic prodigious is white lifestyle etc. We of the Black middle, educated classes look down on these Blacks. We are sick of such Blacks being the representatives of Black culture. I am calling out the Black lower class for its utter toxicity.
Not only the Black lower class have this passive attitude. There are some members of the Black solidly middle, upper middle, & even upper classes who have this attitude, especially if they were born into the lower socioeconomic classes. They believe that society somehow owes them. I have cousins (maternal) cousins who believe that others should carry them. I have another maternal cousin who contends that Caucasians are holding Blacks back. Mind you, this cousin has a Master's Degree in psychology & had a very well paying job until her retirement.
Many Black Americans have this attitude. However, Black Caribbeans don't have this attitude. They believe in working for what they want. They have an utter disdain for people who ask for handouts. My mother was a Black American & my father was of Black Caribbean descent. My father believed that if one wants something, h/she should work for it. My father considered my mother's relatives to be parasitical because they have been supported by an aunt. Those extended maternal family members refused to help themselves which continued to the present time. My father's extended family was poorer than my mother's family was; however, none begged nor expected others to carry them like my mother's family did. Within a generation, my father's family become middle class or better & in succeeding generations, many became wealthy. Not so w/my mother's family. Black Caribbeans & Black Africans don't expect handouts nor have mentalities as opposed to many Black Americans.You remember how surprised you were to learn about the true depth and breath of the 2020 Floyd protests? Again what you see on television or in the press, which seem to depict black people as universally on the dole is a stereotype and exaggeration. And as fervently as you support these fabrications, I have beliefs of my own, highlighted in the article below.
https://www.businessinsider.com/welfare … ind-2020-8
Police brutality and skirting civil rights of anyone even inhabitants of urban inner cities is not the answer. If the police is abusive in regards to these rights, then there has to be a remedy. How difficult was it to get Capone and his mobs of gangsters under control in 1920s Chicago? I would have been able to say that Irish and Italians were gangsters. Still, we are talking about a subset, not the entire ethnic group, and when conservatives keep insinuating that Inner City Chicago is the Black Community, generally, I take offense. So, much for this color blind-Everyman stuff. Assuming that there are a couple of black families that live in Boise, is that a ghetto environment?
The questions you ask as to why problems in the community go unanswered is one that is associated with poverty. I would no more be comfortable in such an environment than you would be. I just do know that the pattern for this subset has to be broken.
My people or tribe, notice how you do make the distinctions which you explicitly asked me to avoid, are not being taught or trained to live off charity. We can just as easily say that anyone on the dole or receiving government benefits can be catagorized in the same way, or do you reserve that for the distinctive group that you have no problem identifying?No one is talking about skirting civil rights. Or police brutality. We're talking about why schools in particular are so poor (quality, not finances) in poverty stricken neighborhoods. And it isn't because civil rights are violated.
Yes, the questions go unanswered...except the incessant demand for more money to end poverty. A solution that has been worked with for decades...with the result that more people than ever are on the dole. Including a very large percentage of people in inner cities, whether black, white, brown, yellow or anything else. As you point out, poverty is the driving force.
Yes, they are. When we have generations living solely off of the dole, that's training almost by definition. And yes, it applies to ALL people - the only reason I don't mention them specifically is because you don't seem interested unless the skin is dark. I cannot recall you ever being concerned about white poverty, white crime ridden neighborhoods, white schools or anything that does not have blacks as the predominant race involved.Quality has more than just a random correlation to financial resources, we all know that.
On the contrary, I am concerned about poverty wherever it rears its head. It is just that that of blacks seem to get more negative media coverage to their disadvantage rather than benefit."It is just that that of blacks seem to get more negative media coverage to their disadvantage"
Yes they do. Perhaps we should be concentrating far more on other races, particularly whites, when it comes to disadvantages. After all there are more whites on welfare (although the percentage is far less), whites are the ones being forced to pay "restitution" for what they did not do, whites are the ones set aside for jobs because of the color of their skin, whites are the ones that cannot get into college because of their color. We never hear of a white criminal being shot, only black ones, although it does happen.
Credence, it irritates me just as much as it does you to see discrimination...discrimination that is either ignored or accepted as "right and proper" because the victim is white. I'm out of the job market now, and if I don't like a neighborhood or store I will leave, but it is still irritating. I don't like discrimination and I don't care what color skin is involved. Of either the victim or the perpetrator.
Addendum-SMALL families are keys in the reduction of poverty. Countless studies substantiate that there is a very strong correlation between large families & poverty. Typical large families are poor & need outside assistance to stay afloat(this applies to two parent large family households also). Children from large families have a disadvantage.
Large families are bereft of the basic necessities, let alone luxuries. Children from large families, on average, start life impoverished & lag behind their counterparts in small families who have most advantages. The poverty rate is highest in large families. If one wants to avoid poverty, have SMALL families of 1-2 children.
Besides being married or in a committed long-term relationship, one should have a lucrative specialized career earning the high five figures at least- requiring education beyond the minimum high school level. In postmodern times, have at least a specialized technical education; however, college education is required but an advanced degree is preferable. These are the ways to prevent poverty in addition to having small families.While it is certainly true that very few parents of 6 or more children can afford to support them, there are millions of families with 3-4 that do just fine. They may not be in your preferred echelon of the upper middle class as a minimum, but there are more than just your concept of "poverty" to consider.
In that range, it isn't the children that cause the poverty; it is on the parent's shoulders. One family homes, parents that don't work, etc.But 3-4 children isn't considered a large family according to sociologists. Although I consider 3-4 children a large family, that isn't what sociologists consider to be a large family. 3-4 children per married/committed household is considered to be a medium-sized family.
The typical large family of 6-more children per married/committed household is poor to impoverished. The father is oftentimes the sole breadwinner of such households. This means that there is very little money for the rudiments. The typical large family of 6-more children receive some type of outside socioeconomic assistance whether it is from relatives, charities, or governmental agencies. There is no socioeconomic self-sufficient large family- they all receive outside socioeconomic help to stay afloat. There is a saying that large families= poverty while small families= affluence. There is seldom any poor to impoverished married/committed small families while there is en masse poor to impoverished married/committed large families.I know that (3-4 children). That's why I picked it; because you DO consider it large.
" There is seldom any poor to impoverished married/committed small families"
Tell that to the single person families in the inner cities. Tell that to the homeless single persons. Tell it to the young couples just starting out and trying to live on near minimum wage. Tell it to the elderly people without sufficient food to eat.
(Sorry, but your "saying" sounds exactly like something I would expect you to say. Did you make it up? Certainly I've never heard it in my 72 years in the society.)To reiterate, only a minute percentage of small families of 1-2 children in married/committed households can be classified as poor to impoverished. Small families of 1-2 children, on average, are at the minimum solidly middle class. However, regarding large families of 6-more children, poverty is rampant. Most large families of 6-more children in married households are classified as poor, even impoverished.
The poor/impoverished families I have witnessed through extended family, schoolmates, & other associations were large families of 6-more children. These are the children who had to be assisted from outside agencies be it more affluent family members, charities, or even the government. In my observation & association, poor small families are 1 in a ten thousand but poor large families are a dime a dozen. Why won't you acknowledge this? When one thinks of large families, one thinks of poverty. Middle class large families are exceedingly scarce. Studies prove that it is the less educated who have large families of 6-more children while it is the highly educated who have small families of 1-2 children.
Again, 3-4 children is considered to be a medium-sized family today. Parents can effectively raise 3-4 children w/o enlisting the oldest/older children to be the surrogate or even the actual parent to the younger siblings. There are no parentified children in 2-4 children families unless there is unforeseen circumstances. However, parentified children in 6-more children families are quite commonplace. Parents of 6-more children don't parent the children, they relegate the parenting to the oldest/older children like the Duggars & other parents of large families.
Credence, I've been away for a few days (travelling to a funeral), but I hope you see this.
I'm impressed. Really impressed. I had not expected, or hoped, to see a post like that. Join us in the fight to end racism, all kinds of racism from all races. The more the better!
"But tribes and tribal behavior has been and always will be part of human nature. They could identify themselves as religious, ethnic, gender, nationality, etc. The key is that just because they are different, they should not be subject to adversity because they are different or claim to be."
This is unfortunately very true - man is a tribal animal and will always form groups, protecting those groups from other groups even when no attack is made. Perhaps one day we can overcome that, but small steps will get us there. Just not today - for today we must accept and applaud our gains on racism, gains on gays and gains on the gender front. Tomorrow we will do better, if we can just quit defining ourselves by a group.I did see it and thanks for the comment.
The "one day" that we can overcome that, may well be the stuff of Star Trek. The human family clings to wealth, exploitation of others and greed as the foundation of the timeless desire of one man to take bread from the mouth of another. While warp drive may well be possible, I don't see it coming anytime soon. A "new man" would have to be created to even consider a world that you are speaking of.
While I need to recognize what progress has been made, I must be ever vigilant that improvement continues..... when ones life chances and outcomes can be defined as a direct result of decisions based on personal choices, innate talent and merit, I will be sold. We are definitely not there yet. Those uneven outcomes can be defined within groups rather than individuals, when that stops I can give the idea more consideration. When advantages and adverse aspects of life are more evenly spread throughout the population without regard to group affiliation, I then can bend an ear.
"From a historical standpoint, why would whites be intimidated by the behavior of those long dead who just happen to have looked like them? This discussion has reached national proportions."
Precisely what I was saying: the answer is they are not. You're putting your own feelings onto whites, assuming they are intimidated by such discussions because you would be, but the majority are not. The only intimidation comes into play when modern whites are blamed for those actions, and that is something completely different.
"The reality is that we remain tribal by ethnic, religion, and even gender, etc. There was a certain race based pride with the ascension of Barack Obama to the Presidency"
Same thing - you may have been proud to have a black president, but that is because your skin color defines who you are. For those without that innate racism, it meant nothing. Black or white, male or female, red or yellow; none of those mean anything. Only the person him (or her) self. Example: I did not care for Obama. His policies were far too liberal, he always appeared to dislike America and his actions were (apparently) always to run down America and harm it. His statesman like oration was as smooth (and objectionable) as Trump's was rough (and objectionable). Color did not enter the equation.
"While you may not share the concept, you are sensitive to it, i.e., the CRT issues."
Sensitive to CRT issues, yes, but not because of what another white did long ago. Sensitive because whites today are being blamed for those actions and are being cajoled to take up and shoulder that blame because of a shared color. A world of difference.
"Tribalism has been responsible for death and violence from the beginning, am I so naïve to think that it is just going to go away?"
No. Sadly, it will never end...as long as people define themselves by the color of their skin. As long as actions of someone similar become a reflection on ourselves because of a shared color. That may well be the first step to ending racism; recognition that skin color does not transfer shame, blame or anything else.
"Where does you assessment as people "being just individuals" exist anywhere?"
It exists to me. Not to you, and I get that, but it does to me, and that makes it very difficult to understand when others do not share that concept.
"I cringe when someone of my race or ethnicity sets a bad example because there are many that use that example to support continued racism, stereotypes and biases."
Is the answer to take that person to task instead of cringing away and leaving them to their bad behavior? When those watching see a black man remonstrating with another black man behaving badly, what is their reaction? to continue the racism and stereotype? I think not.If they are not, why the big fuss over teaching the truth about slavery in America? As to who were the antogonists and who were the victims? I would say that there is not so much blaming as more the sudden desire to deny what was, in my opinion. All this is consistently supported by the rush to ban books much from minority authors accused of have "woke" content, particularly here in Florida, that are expressing an alternate view of society that Rightwingers just as soon not have revealed.
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"It exists to me. Not to you, and I get that, but it does to me, and that makes it very difficult to understand when others do not share that concept"
No one in the real world shares that concept. With the attitudes and accusations that you have made regarding this topic, I don't really think that you do either, in my opinion.
Everybody defines themselves, whether it be families, lineage, religion etc.
The Catholics, Mormons, women, maybe you can only see it when you have been the underdog which has not been the case for white men in this society as a rule.
You tell the rest of your friends about the truth regarding skin color associated with blame shame or anything else.
When two black men behave badly, I still cringe.
Because as Grace stated this is still a race based society and to not recognize that being true over generations of time, one would have to have ones head in the sand. We have always in such in environment have had to be superior and exceptional while the White competition can stand around with their hands in their pocket. That is the reality, not the ideal.
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I am a Black woman. I am going to respond to this. This is a deep psychosocial & psychocultural issue. There are some Blacks who use slavery as a ruse not to assert themselves. They have an extremely passive, almost fatalistic attitude towards life. They contend that there is no use trying to get ahead in life because "the man" will find some method to hold them back.
These are the same Blacks who subconsciously argue since they are Black, they are happy to get the mere crumbs in life. They indoctrinate their children to settle & not to aim too high. They teach their children to merely survive instead of thriving. They also feel that they can do no more to help themselves nor their children.
They believe that society owes them for the wrongs that were done. There is also a subculture of saviorism i.e. someone will save them, elevate them out of their dire predicament. They have the give me, victim mentality instead of looking to themselves to elevate/improve themselves. They also have the poverty mentality i.e. that it is so good to be poor & struggling thus being content w/second, even third & fourth best.
Yes, there are Blacks who believe that they are so undeserving of the good things of life. They think this negative thought & subsequently act upon it. They are the ones who are the crabs in the bucket. They are the ones who will try to sabotage any Black person who elects to break this negative narrative. They are the ones who criticize the Black affluent & educated class as boule, sell outs, Uncle Toms & Aunt Thomasinas. They are the one who ostracize Blacks who won't subscribe to the stereotypical Black narrative.
They are the ones who subconsciously believe that to be Black is to be dumb. There are those in the Black community who subscribe to the anti-intellectual narrative. They exalted street culture. In some Black environments, Black intellectuals, particularly children, are derided. Education isn't as valued as so called street culture.
Sharlee, you are correct in your premise. I, as a Black woman, find many Blacks too dependent upon the government. This is beyond inexcusable. The solution isn't the government working harder for Blacks. It is Blacks who need to reform, elevate, & clean house. The Black community needs to stop having poverty, scarcity, & struggle mentalities. The Black community needs to really comprehend the intrinsic value of education & to teach their children this like the Asian community does. I shall continue this discussion later as I am very tired right now.Grace, thank you so much for sharing your honesty, and your perspective as a black woman.
One of my very good friends is a black woman, I met her many many years ago while in college. She was working her way through to become a doctor of psychology.
One thing she shared with me has always stuck out... She approached me early on in our friendship. She felt I was treating her "differently".
She shared ---" I am not different in any other respect than I am not the same color as you, got it?"
She literally is one of the only friends I kept from college. I value her, and I know she values me. She thrived, she came from a poor, not-so-good background. She has been someone I could always anchor to. I just respect her honesty and her spirit.
Your comments are always so straight to the point, and you share your honesty... You so remind me of my great friend.Yes, there was more overt & massive discrimination against Blacks in the past but there was some Blacks who adamantly refused to succumb. They became education & middle class, some even became wealthy. There are those who are strong & those who are weak. For example, my maternal grandmother had a CHOICE of attending college or getting married. She elected to get married & have 10 children. She was impoverished & refused to help herself.
Let me elucidate even further, out of her line of 13 siblings, she was the only one who was impoverished. my maternal grandparents expected others to carry them socioeconomically. This parasitism carried on to this current generation. My extended family on this line with the exception of SEVEN descendants are just as impoverished & parasitic as the grandparents. Mind you there was far more opportunity in the succedent generations. However, many of the descendants refused to uplift themselves socioeconomically-instead they want others to foot their living situation. I have DISOWNED them. This branch of my maternal bloodline have been carried by other relatives for FOUR generations. This is what happens when people refuse to do for themselves. My late father considered them to be parasites.
Oftentimes, the worst enemies Black people have are other Black people. I remember when I was in college four decades ago, I stated in sociology class that there are so many Blacks who elect to be in the dire situation they are in. A Black classmate who was from a low income family stated that she should slap my face. Many low income Blacks have this fatalistic attitude- expect others to carry them & making very little or no effort on their part.
Blacks who came from a solidly middle class background believe that we are responsible for our lives, not society. I believe that many Blacks or for that fact, people regardless of race/ethnic background are poor because of negative mentality & unintelligent life choices. There are people who refuse to think before making life decisions.
Here is my rule for living a middle class or affluent lifestyle:
(1) Do not have children until one is financially, emotionally, & psychologically established.
(a) First of all, AT LEAST have a bachelor's degree or technical
certificate.
(b) Don't get married before one is 30 & have children in one 30s-at that
time, one is hopefully established in his/her career. The earlier one
gets married, the higher the poverty rate.
(c) If one elects to have children, have 1-2, maybe 3-4 children. Small
to medium sized families offers the greatest parent-child relationship.
In small to medium sized families, children have the greatest cultural &
socioeconomic opportunities to use their FULLEST potential. Also in
such families, children aren't parentified i.e. assuming adult roles far
before they are ready to do so.
My comment was just to point out that many people that came to America had it very hard, but seem to thrive over all odds.
----------
Except forced migration and decimation of families and cultures, that was never the fate of the immigrant who comes prepared to deal with challenges. The only people in America that have been put upon in this way are African Americans and indigenous people.
We say that the commitment toward removing barriers of systemic racism and promoting equal opportunity is why we support Democrats, not because we expect them to favor our group over others. Obviously, as this society has denied certain groups for some time our priority are going to be those principles as opposed to reactionaries, Republicans who based on their attitudes and the company they keep, are more resistant to these ideas.
Everybody should benefit from a merit based system with a foundation of equal opportunity. Republicans do not embrace this nor are committed to this to the same extent, they are for the plutocrat, the divine rights of the prima-Donna. A fairer more just America is one that I am more likely to vote for not just from a racial standpoint but from a general economic, labor, foreign policy, etc.
No one is "taking you to task", Wilderness. Slavery existed in the United States as a race caste system. While you have acknowledged that, there have been many on this very thread that challenged that basic premise.
I don't want that fact to be muzzled or conveniently set aside because whites are nervous and fearful, the facts and reality of that past cannot be changed and reinterpreted so that certain people can not be made to feel uncomfortable."No one is "taking you to task", Wilderness."
LOL Don't be silly. Of course they are. From affirmative action (refusing jobs, college admission, etc. to Caucasians, particularly male Caucasians) to teaching our kids to be ashamed of light skin to demanding reparations I am being "taking to task" for what someone did 200 years ago.
You would have to point out anyone denying that slavery existed in our country, or that slaves were primarily blacks (with a few Hispanic and Indians) before I would ever accept that anyone made such a statement. I have never met anyone so foolish.So, now I found the true burr in your saddle.
-
The term "affirmative action" was first used in the United States in "Executive Order No. 10925",[20] signed by President John F. Kennedy on 6 March 1961, which included a provision that government contractors "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed, and employees are treated [fairly] during employment, without regard to their race, creed, color, or national origin".[21] It was used to promote actions that achieve non-discrimination. In 1965, President Lyndon B. Johnson issued Executive Order 11246 which required government employers to "hire without regard to race, religion and national origin" and "take affirmative action to ensure that applicants are employed and that employees are treated during employment, without regard to their race, color, religion, sex or national origin."[22]
If these concepts were already there, these two great Presidents would have had no need to issue executive orders, right? And THAT was within my lifetime.
Reparations are only supported by a small radical faction, the same as your Rightwinger and white supremist groups.
The skin color thing is as I said a figment of your imagination, or a shroud to cover up issues that you just as soon not see the light of day.
-----------------------
Here is the opinion of American slavery shared with me by Mike....
---
My family didn't get here until the 1890s. We took no part in the Civil War or slavery. So, should I be shamed for slavery? If that is the case, shouldn't blacks who are decedents of slave owners be shamed by the behavior of their ancestors?
OR
Should we teach this was an ill of culture and society at that time. Not of one particular race.
"Those that forget and fail to learn from history could again be a victim, that's why."
My My!
In the first place, I really do not think we are going to go against the thirteenth amendment and reinstate slavery of blacks.
https://www.archives.gov/milestone-docu … -amendment
In the second place, the Federalist Papers were printed and distributed in New York by Hamilton to introduce and explain the basis of the Constitution which the founders wanted to be accepted by the states and the people. America had no unity and were about to loose their country-hood. Other countries were posed to overtake the weak nation. Hamilton, Madison, Jay, Franklin, Washington and others decided to get the states on board with adopting the Constitution and establishing a Federal Government to protect the developing nation. At the same time, the Federal Government was to be dependent on a balance of powers and on the people, in a democratic sense.
Fast forward, the Federal Government today, which was supposed to have limited powers, is way more powerful than the Constitution allows. For instance, education is not under the jurisdiction of the federal government, rather the individual states. Today the Federal Government is controlling the schools and mandating what is to be taught at all levels of education, (and even in the military and businesses.)
https://capta.org/role-of-federal-gover … education/
To what end is CRT being taught anywhere?CRT proper isn't being taught to k-12 students. The term has been co-opted by the far right as a catch-all and rallying cry to ban or alter the truthful teaching of American history. The term has been unjustifiably used to include all diversity and inclusion efforts.
Do you know what this amounts to in our public School system? Days dedicated to celebrating and learning about historical figures such as MLK, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Rosa Parks and more. They also include age appropriate activities and instruction on days such as Indigenous peoples day. Unfortunately in today's political climate this type of curriculum is now being banned.
These celebrations are being banished under the guise that they make white students feel uncomfortable. When you hear the claim that CRT is being taught in schools, keep in mind what is actually being done.
CRT is much more complicated than children learning about diverse historical figures and events.In the first place, I really do not think we are going to go against the thirteenth amendment and reinstate slavery of blacks.
---------
In today's political climate, I am not certain of anything. I just know that ignorance of the past has never been to my benefit.
I am not attacking the Federalist Papers and fail to see how it entered this discussion. As for the growth of government, it is not 1789. The validity of these documents and pro and con discussions can be saved for another thread.
CRT speaks of structural racism and this is where I have to give some support. Where it speaks of people being inherently racist, I disagree.
But, There are more than a handful of examples where institutional and structural racism within our society has been used against Blacks and other racial minorities. From that standpoint, CRT is correct.
He is very actively trying to limit the Free speech rights of others though. Look at the recent ruling against his anti-woke legislation. He is trying to reach into University education and muzzle free speech. Why would you want to do that? Why on Earth is government trying to "protect" young adults from a freely flowing exchange of thought and idea? It's really very autocratic and the judge was right to call it dystopian
His time would be better spent addressing school funding, crumbling buildings, schools that are on able to update curriculum, don't have enough books for all their students, students who come to school hungry and without even proper clothing. Please spare me the culture warrior crap it doesn't relate to the reality of what is happening in our schools on a daily basis. The mom's for Liberty should start focusing on that. You know why they don't though? Because that would require real work. It would require effort and money. The culture wars cost nothing. People just keep getting bamboozled by empty bullsh*t
I wish the moms for Liberty were there every time I made sure a student had snacks throughout the day or new shoes when we recognized as a staff that the student was wearing the same shoes for 2 years as a first grader who probably outgrew them within his first few months. Come on already stop this nonsense. I wonder how many moms for Liberty have ever had a one-on-one with their child's teacher??" He is trying to reach into University education and muzzle free speech. Why would you want to do that? Why on Earth is government trying to "protect" young adults from a freely flowing exchange of thought and idea?"
The context of my comments in regard to CRT refers to K-12. I did not offer a view on young adults being taught.
To quote --- I don't agree that teachers in K-12 have the right to teach their own ideologies. I do believe our history should be taught with truth, but not shaming white people for something that happened so long
ago.
It looks like Florida does well with retaining children in school, and has a very good graduation rate. "Florida’s Graduation Rate
Florida’s high school graduation rate increased by 3.1 percentage points over the last year and has increased significantly
during the past sixteen years. The rate rose from 59.2 percent in 2003-04 to 90.0 percent in 2019-20, which is a 30.8
percentage-point increase. "
Desantis became governor in 2018. It is obvious he is doing something right in regard to better education.
I am very sure you are correct in thinking the majority of parents do not interact with their children's teachers, and it is clear we have a very high rate of poverty in the US, which results in many problems in regard to children as you made mentioned.
If you want my view, this is unacceptable, and it is one of the main reasons I tend to support America's first ideologies.
Madison: Paper 76
"The supposition of universal venality in human nature is little less an error in political reasoning than the supposition of universal rectitude. The institution of delegated power implies that there is a portion of virtue and honor among mankind, which may be a reasonable foundation of confidence."
Venality: Venality is the quality of being open to bribery or overly motivated by money.
Rectitude: Morally correct behavior or thinking; righteousness.More history:
" In the 54th Federalist Paper, James Madison reveals his defenses and arguments behind a portion of the United States Constitution known as the Three-Fifths Compromise. Madison created the 54th Federalist Paper in order to influence the American public that the compromise was in fact a successful solution to the differences between the North and the South regions. Although Madison was a strong supporter of the Constitution, he personally felt conflicted about the concept of slavery, which inevitably left him feeling obligated to defend the three-fifths rule.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_No._54
Throughout the Federalist 54, Madison recognizes that the lives of the slaves are initially considered property under the law, because of the slaves compelling labor, constant trade, and in the end, their liberty was constrained, much like property. Essentially, Madison argues that the law protects the lives of slaves as property, and as a person because in reality slaves could receive punishment for the harm of others. Madison continues to argue through the content of the 54th Federalist Paper, that by the defense of the Constitution and in support of the Three-Fifths Compromise, that slaves should be represented with a mixed characteristics, as both property and person."
"Systemic racism, in the eyes of critical race theorists, stems from the dominance of race in American life. Critical race theorists and anti-racist advocates argue that, because race is a predominant part of American life, racism itself has become internalized into the American conscience. It is because of this, they argue, that there have been significantly different legal and economic outcomes between different racial groups.
What are the implications of Critical Race Theory?
Advocates of anti-racism and critical race theory use this focus on race to emphasize the importance of identity politics. Movements, such as the wave of “anti-racist” actions at universities and Black Lives Matter, are some ways in which identity politics and critical race theory have captured the nation’s attention. For the political identitarians, simply not being racist is not sufficient. As Boston University professor Ibram X. Kendi writes in his book How to Be an Antiracist, “[Racism] is descriptive,
-----------> and the only way to undo racism is to consistently identify and describe it—and then dismantle it."
https://criticalrace.org/what-is-critical-race-theory/Systematic racism must be identified in order to eradicate it.
Repeating the above.
What are the effects of systemic racism?
What is the evidence?
How do we recognize systemic racism
How do we stop it?https://www.humanrightscareers.com/issu … ic-racism/
It remains a challenge as to how it can be stopped, but acknowledging its existence is a start.I think that we can very easily see systemic racism in employment, healthcare the justice system and education.
In terms of Education, Inequitable school funding is one of the first systemic barriers that young people of color and low-income youth come up against. Data has shown that school districts attended predominantly by students of color receive $23 billion less in funding than primarily white districts, adding up to $2,200 less per student per year. Poor, predominantly white districts receive about $150 less per student than the national average. And the harm is multiplied when you recognize students of color and students from low-income communities often require more, not fewer, resources to create the inclusive learning environments they need to thrive.
Every state finances their public schools, at least in part, based on local property taxes, which means at a foundational level, the more you pay for your house, the more money your local public school has to work with.
A good education is the very foundation of success yet we disadvantage large numbers of students from day one. Children of color and impoverished children face the most extreme hurdles to academic success.
This is a huge issue to tackle and one that I feel the majority of our politicians aren't up to the task. It's easier to wage the culture wars as it costs nothing. It's easier to scaremonger with insignificant issues than to address the real problems."Data has shown that school districts attended predominantly by students of color receive $23 billion less in funding than primarily white districts, adding up to $2,200 less per student per year ...
Poor, predominantly white districts receive about $150 less per student than the national average ...
Every state finances their public schools, at least in part, based on local property taxes, which means ... the more you pay for your house, the more money your local public school has to work with."
AND?And?
Systemic racism has led to education disparities. Money matters in education, with multiple studies showing that increasing funding improves outcomes while cuts hurt them. Still, the United States’ school funding systems remain inequitable, disproportionately shortchanging students of color.
Very simple. Let's advocate for equitable funding so that every child starts their education on a level playing field."Public schools for students in kindergarten through 12th grade (K-12) are financed through a combination of local, state, and federal dollars in proportions that vary across and within states. In the 2019–2020 school year, the most recent data available, spending for public K-12 education totaled $771 billion from all sources, reflecting an INCREASE for the EIGHT consecutive year."
Funds from Federal Government 25.7 billion 2019 - 2020
FEDERAL FUNDING PROGRAMS FOR K-12
Title I ESEA
Title I grants provide funds to school districts serving large shares of low-income students. It is the largest grant program of ESEA . Title I grants provide funds to school districts serving large shares of low-income students. It is the largest grant program of ESEA, totaling $14.1 billion during the 2019–2020 school year.
1.low-income families (which account for 97 percent of eligible children);
2.institutions for neglected or delinquent children or in foster homes; and
3.families receiving Temporary Assistance for Needy Families payments.
Part B IDEA and Other Programs
During the 2019–2020 school year, the federal government provided $11.6 billion in IDEA grants to states. Those funds are awarded through a formula based on a state's total population with disabilities between the ages of 3 and 21, the percentage of those individuals living in poverty,
In addition -
The federal government also allocated $15.6 billion for child nutrition, which was used to reimburse schools that provided free or reduced-price lunches to eligible students. About $4.4 billion of federal funds went directly to school districts for various programs including Impact Aid, Indian Education, Head Start, Follow Through, Magnet Schools, Dropout Demonstration Assistance, and Gifted and Talented. In addition, the federal government provided $0.6 billion for vocational programs and $11.5 billion on the aforementioned programs for which reporting units could not provide distinct amounts.
https://www.pgpf.org/budget-basics/how- … %20states.
So for 8 years funding has been increased, and the majority of funds went to poverty areas. Yea, it is disproportionate, but in formation shows it is disproportioned the other way --- whereas the poverty areas receive more than areas with middle-class families.
Let's have a look at how the money is being spent.Very simple. Let's advocate for equitable funding so that every child starts their education on a level playing field.
--------
Thank you, understanding this basic truth should not be rocket science....Would you take money from some schools, searching for the "lowest common denominator", or would you raise taxes on just some parents to give to schools their children do not attend?
Is it really a level playing field when some students, predominantly of color and low socioeconomic status, have to overcome so many deficits in terms of education that their wealthier counterparts don't. Why is it that we always expect that these children must rise above or somehow be more resilient because we can't fund schools equally?
These kids are starting with one foot in a hole. Why is it any wonder that we then see low graduation rates and college attendance rates because they couldn't climb out of the hole?Same questions for you as for Cred: will you lower standards for some to a least common denominator or will you charge some parents to provide better schools for areas neither they nor their children use?
To think that every child in this country gets equivalent schooling, or should, is a pipe dream; a fantasy that sounds wonderful but cannot happen. Personally, I'm happy with what is done in my neighborhood; schools are financed with local property taxes plus a healthy amount from state income tax coffers. Not all neighborhoods are "equal" in financing but that's OK as it allows neighborhoods to purchase better schooling at a higher cost.
To deny parents or even neighborhoods/cities the ability to improve their schools without improving every one in the country is ludicrous. There is also the wee matter of varying costs - no location will ever have the same costs as any other for the same product.The task of devising of funding scheme for public education is much too big and complicated for myself. We could potentially move away from property tax as the predominant source though.
But I think you've made a clear case for the fact that education has become a tool for the maintenance of Inequality. Our educational system is riddled with systemic discrimination. Our policies and practices perpetuate disadvantage for those of color and low SES. What would the impact be in terms of the rest of the country if we gave all children the same education? We would see positive ripple effects.
It all starts with education."Our educational system is riddled with systemic discrimination."
On this we agree. I went to a very small town, poor, white school that was not a good one. My children went to a small town, poor, black school that was not a good one.
Systemic discrimination against the poor. Regardless of color, systemic discrimination against the poor. Something that is found in every aspect of life, from the food we eat to the house we live in to the toys we have...to the education we get. Unless you are willing to stand up and claim that poor white schools are top notch and rich black schools are bottom of the heap?
The problem is too big for me, too, but I can give you a hefty running start on it - get parents (both of them!) involved. Without parental involvement and encouragement all the money in the world is not going to convince a child to use the education they are offered.
But let me throw just one thought at you; there isn't enough money in the country to bring ALL public schools up to the standards of the best private schools. That means that the first option I gave is the only one that can be used; reduce standards for the best until all are equal.
And that would certainly have an impact, although not of the "ripple" variety. Instead it would be a tidal wave as our children lose out on the education front all over the country. All of them, not just the poor or those without parents that care.
There should be a minimum standard for all public schools as to instruction materials, books and facilities etc. if the rich parents want to send their precious little Wentworth to private schools or go beyond the minimum standard they can pay for it.
The thing that irks me about conservatives, reactionaries and Republicans who inspite of all their color blind talk, is,their interest in maintaining the basics of inequity starting with education.
Then, saying that the uneven outcome had been earned by the Wentworths based on merit and hard work, really? An outcome which is later employed under rightwing reasoning to justify why some people in society are worthy and some not. Based upon a concept of merit, a principle they carefully sabotage from its inception."...if the rich parents want to send their precious little Wentworth to private schools or go beyond the minimum standard they can pay for it."
What you actually mean is that those parents can pay for the private school for Wentworth AND the public school for Johnny next door, right? That seems equitable and reasonable to you?
I notice you didn't answer the question posed though...
The quality of education depends on socioeconomic class. That is a fact of life. Affluent people have more resources to assure a better quality of education for their children. They are pro-active in their children's educational process. Education systems respect people who are involved in their children's lives. Affluent parents are co-educators w/the teachers. They are also, on average, the highest educated, in the population. They also have smaller families which means they COMMUNICATE w/their children. Children aren't left to raise themselves. Children in affluent households have more cultural & educational paraphernalia which results in they being more advanced in school.
Poor parents, on the other hand, aren't as involved in their children's school. They are of the school that it is the teacher's job to solely educate their children. They contend that they, as the parents, aren't responsible for their children's education. They are passive as far as the educational system goes. Poor parents are less educated or even educated so they aren't respected in the education system. Teachers sensing this, can treat the children in any fashion they please. It is the teacher's opinion that these children aren't going to amount to much anyway. Again, one gets what one pays for. In essence, educational & socioeconomic status determines how one & one's family is treated in life. Children, as adults, receive treatment according to parent's education & socioeconomic status. That is a part of life. Poor people will always get an inferior education as opposed to those who are middle & upper class.
CRT is pushing victim-hood when it should be advocating for responsibility-hood.
It would be better to isolate the actual difficulty which is the negative effects of socialism on the human psyche.Equality of Outcome vs Equality of Opportunity.
The question is do "people of color," (non-palefaces,) have less opportunity?
What contributes to a lack of opportunity?
A system which is merit based.
Sorry about that. Go somewhere else where socialism thrives.
Slavery was and is no longer.
There is no reason to harken back to those dark times, but to forget about them entirely and move forward. Analyze what the Constitution of the United States guarantees through the laws and freedom which every single solitary individual, regardless of superficial qualities such as skin tone, culture, economic status, etc., possesses.
The whole body of the population votes and has a say in our government.
When one is free, human and over 21, one has equality in opportunity.
So embrace it and move on, I say.
And indeed, join the millions who have!!!!!!
Stop expecting equity and equality to be given to you.
It must be earned and everyone has the legal protection to do so."Let's advocate for equitable funding so that every child starts their education on a level playing field"
Money is never the influential aspect of a good education.
and where is the money supposed to come from?
It would behoove the world to look into the Montessori educational method and implement it wherever they can in preschools and at the elementary school level.
It would behoove teachers to get rid of the CCP Common Core curriculum and the Bill Gates chrome book/ paperless educational method now being utilized in all public State Schools.
It would behove people to figure out how to raise their children with good morals and values and to have mothers and fathers involved in raising their own children with the powerful love they feel for their offspring.
It starts with families, radiates to communities, then local schools and school boards,
the city, the state and then the country.
Let success and happiness through equal opportunity begin within a mother or a father through the love of their own child. Let it continue no matter how hard the fight.
Life comes with struggle to a good end.
If we keep the good end in mind and move forward with positivity into the future we can bypass the misery of the racism of the past.
I say.Money upgrades a crumbling building, money buys enough teachers to manage classrooms at reasonable levels, money buys technology, money buys new curriculum, money buys enough curriculum for every student. Money is extremely important. The data also bears out the fact that poorly funded schools produce less successful students in terms of graduation rates and attendance and higher education.
No. There is data showing the opposite.
Well my decades of experience in teaching tell me that a teacher who has a manageable classroom of 20 rather than 40 can teach more effectively. A student who is able to bring a book home can absorb a lesson More fully. A building that has adequate heat, air conditioning and air quality promotes a better learning environment. A student who is using the latest technology will be better able to compete with their peers in a neighboring wealthy district who has all of those advantages of technology. Districts who can't afford to update aging, less effective curriculum will see the poor outcomes in their students. I'm sorry but I very much disagree with you. Money buys resources that contribute to student success. If that's the case then we could equalize funding, no problem right? That has been tried and of course parents from wealthy districts fight at tooth and nail.
all the money $$$$$$$$$ spent on Chrome Book computer devices (and fancy smart boards so the teachers don't have to get up at all) for every student and every classroom in the nation is what is throttling our CHILDREN.
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$You have absolutely no idea, in practical experience, what you're talking about in the allegations that your leveling are really disrespectful
"... the allegations that you are leveling are really disrespectful."
... maybe to the government and Bill Gates, but not to children and parents.What is disrespectful is ignoring the true needs of children and the significance of their very precious inner lives, which thrive in the real world, learning real things.
What does Bill Gates have to do with anything? And do you really think that this tactic that Republicans are taking in trying to turn parents against teachers is useful in education? Especially since many of them aren't involved actively in their child's education to begin with?
Here is one point of view.
https://www.brightworkresearch.com/how- … -shortage/
Furthermore, throwing money at the school system, through taxation, ($$$ which could be better used for their own children,) contributes to it's power over parents!
This money is often wasted. Equipment abused, not appreciated, not used. Books left out in the rain, because of technological equipment brought into the classroom. (Who need Books? so heavy. I saw it all: Barrels of government-funded food tossed out after every single lunch time.)
Why? Because the students of today have no regard for school or respect for teachers.
They have been abandoned by parents who have to work so hard to pay for every little thing they have. This is what needs to be rectified: over regulation, taxation and no jobs.
Whites have it bad too. This I know. I am white, I was not born with a sliver spoon in my mouth and we all struggled in the sixties. Things are good, much better/improved now for all races. Lets get real.
Systemic racism is a talking point to bring about a destruction of all the progress we have made. We of all colors and nationalities have worked very hard to make America the land of fulfilling hopes, dreams and ambitions it is today ... to this very day, despite all we have been through since the winter of 2019.Wokeness is an effort to bring forth socialism. It insists on equality of outcome.
This goal is unfair, even if it were possible. Which it is not.So let's clear the air shall we, this entire thread is going off in tangents
1. I started by saying that I won't work with those who lie to my children either through instruction or textbooks about how we got here by minimizing Slavery, calling it something else it was not, etc, so on and so forth for the comfort of white parents who don't want to their little charges to be offended by the truth.
1a. I do not blame contemporary whites for what happened before their lifetime. You are blaming yourselves
2. CRT is a controversial theory taught at the university level, not in high schools. I resent the Right using the term to define every adverse aspect of race relations taught in American history. If it is not George Washington cut down the cherry tree, then it is woke? CRT is correct about the existence of institutional and systemic racism. Institutional not so much as systemic, today. I also said that no one is inherently racist, that may be a tenet of CRT where I take issue.
3. You Rightwingers are the ones intimidated by all of this creating bogey-men that do not exist. From your standpoint, fairness and equal opportunity in society is a threat and a zero sum game from the view of rightwing Whites.
4. There are systemic racism issues that remain in America and tackling them in earnest is synonymous with the party and group with whom I affiliate myself with great pride.
5. I don't expect most of you to agree nor understand, but that is where I am at along with millions of others that are my political kindred.1. I agree. I would also include black parents, or any other color, that minimizes slavery, whether in America or anywhere else. Slavery has existed on every continent and within every race. Including America, and by whites, blacks, indians and likely other races as well.
2. Sorry, versions of CRT is being taught to very young children (grade school) - it is not limited to colleges. There are simply too many parental reports, as well as videos, to think otherwise. It may not be very common (yet) but it is there.
3. Leftwingers have a nasty habit of denying those bogey-men that do exist in our society. From reparations for something people did not do to choosing employees by race (as Biden did), we are full of bogey-men, and they are not all created by those with light skin.
4. Yes, systemic racism exists in America, no it is not limited to racist actions against blacks. All races are suffering from it; check the lawsuits by Asians over college admission practices. Denying college admission based on skin color is almost a textbook definition of "systemic racism".
5. I, too, do not expect all to agree, for it means acceptance of racism by ALL races, not just the white one. Too many deny it exists, perhaps because they benefit from it and do not wish it to end.Fair enough, Wilderness, different strokes....
In terms of CRT, I think that what you're seeing are attempts at employing curriculum that has some component of inclusion and diversity. I see absolutely no problem with that. This isn't CRT though and I dare to say there isn't a school board in the land that would approve a curriculum set that includes lessons or prompts for shaming children. That's just ridiculous. Also, again folks are leaving the actual children out of this equation. Each one brings their own thoughts and experiences to the classroom. They certainly aren't afraid to share them. How do we figure simply muzzle these kids?
In the end, if parents were more involved in their child's actual school building they would realize the nonsense of CRT. But the truth is, we could barely get 50% of parents in for academic conferences. But these people are going to get worked up about a problem that doesn't exist? It doesn't fly with me.
We all need to use the vocabulary we already have. "Wokeness" is the same made up useage the right used to make "liberal" a non-complimentary term.
"Liberal" was never complimentary, or derogatory, but it did not carry the highly negative connotation it does now.
That is, however, on liberals. They have gone beyond reason with their "progressive" attempts to destroy all that America is. To promote Gay marriage was great...to force taxpayers to pay for transgender surgery is stupid. To bring millions of illegal aliens into the country to feed off of taxpayers is stupid. To teach that people with white skin should be ashamed of who they are is stupid. To deny federal law is stupid. To subsidize half our population under the theory they cannot support themselves is stupid.
The list just goes on and on and on of stupid concepts liberals have begun to demand the country embrace.
It is really a matter of giving the government too much power. The liberals do not see the danger in that and are facilitating it by their stupid compliance with all things stupidly woke.
Look at the situation in China. A blank piece of paper says it all ... but not for all.
Some are still on board with the wonderful CCP. These government supporters look the other way.
Look the other way vs "Step down Xi!"... it's matter of embracing wokism vs freedom, liberty, happiness and justice for all.
And that's what the some of the Chinese citizens are starting to realize.
Government Tyranny and Greed and Evil.
What do we behold in China's urgent protests against CCP's "Dynamic" Covid lockdowns? Events that could unfold in America?
I would say, Y E S !!!
We all need to look at the problem
and tend to reality
for the fight
... for US now and posterity / The Future.Worth repeating:
"To promote Gay marriage was great...to force taxpayers to pay for transgender surgery is stupid. To bring millions of illegal aliens into the country to feed off of taxpayers is stupid. To teach that people with white skin should be ashamed of who they are is stupid. To deny federal law is stupid. To subsidize half our population under the theory they cannot support themselves is stupid.
The list just goes on and on and on of stupid concepts liberals have begun to demand the country embrace." wildernessI'd love to see some fact that backs up any of these statements.
It's there, Fay, all you have to do is a google search.
Prisons are being required to do transgender surgery and the military will end up paying for follow up and, eventually, the surgery itself. Biden has brought over a million illegal aliens into the country so far, and they cannot support themselves. CRT teaches that those with white skin should be ashamed. Over half our nation gets federal charity of one kind or another. Sanctuary cities deny federal law.
All a matter of open record if you choose to look.This is what "non-woke" looks like. So what choice do we have:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics … 00cd6ec180
I, for one, chose our Constitution, which was being slowly eroded away, but very quickly now if you add our Supreme Court.I see that Mr Trump is suggesting we do away with the Constitution all together.
I would too. She says go look it up for yourself, but I don't haunt the right wing media that support these views. I think she should state her sources if she wants credibility. I state mine when I counter such radical ideas.
You mean right wing media like CBS? This is their qoute: In fiscal year 2021, which included Mr. Biden's first eight full months in office, Border Patrol recorded 1.66 million arrests along the southern border, surpassing the previous all-time high...
It took me about 30 seconds to find a source that you would not consider a member of the right wing media.Wait, your answer is about border patrol arrests when she is talking about taxpayer money for transgender teen surgery and white people should be ashamed of their skin color. Why am I obligated to look up evidence behind her statements, when I back up mine?
As far as your CBS statement. It says "Border Patrol recorded 1.66 million arrests ... surpassing an all time high...." She said, "Biden has brought over a million illegal aliens into the country so far, and they cannot support themselves." Sounds like the opposite to me unless it includes arrested people. As I understand it, her "'woke" statement was a criticism of the faction for wanting to open borders.You did read the comment she was referring to? There was more there han just the transgendered issue. Why do you think that she is only interested in that? As per your original comment, you do realize that if you are interested in an issue you should hear both sides?
As far as your comment on the CBS article, I see you are taking an Uncle Joe attitude. He refuses to visit, you are ignorning what is going on. If 1.66 milion people have been arrested a lot more are getting through. Even NBC back that up.(I know that becuase I watch broadcasts from the left and the right instead of having an attitude that the other side is always wrong.)
Woke can be effective in personal growth for the individual. Yet the political woke is as much a fairytale as one world order. My daughter is into some political woke movement, lacking in facts and evidence. Wail running on feeling or imagination, lacking in responsibility, the practical and solid ethics . Wail calling me many negative names, I've not ever heard of before, from anyone esle. What ever happened with my forefathers father, who did negatively things. I will apologize for their great ignorances. Yet today, I'm their by product of advance evolution from their mistakes. Not any better or worst than the next guy, just today is better living conditions.
.There's more... Many poor Blacks are that way because of they WANT TO BE. There is opportunity but they elect not to do the hard work required. They want the easy life. They don't the responsibility required to overcome their impoverished status. They don't want to continue their education nor train for lucrative jobs. They would rather complain & blame others than to take responsibility for their lives. They are basically irresponsible & this irresponsibility & lackadaisical attitude extends to "parenting". They don't plan for their children hence they have children that they can't properly care for. These children are totally bereft of cultural & educational opportunity which impairs their future. I ADAMANTLY REFUSE to blame the government for what irresponsible, selfish parents & people do.
Yes, it's alot more of what each one of us do toward our own destiny than anything esle.
Good evening Castlepaloma, nice to hear from you again.
What about the inequities in school funding??? Do you adamantly refuse to blame the government for that also? This is crazy
The point being made (earlier in the thread) is that throwing money at black schools in inner cities isn't going to do any good...until the attitude among the blacks living there changes. But no, government is not solely to blame, unless your concept is that government must simply give money away to no avail, in failed attempts at raising people out of poverty that will not help themselves.
Government should fund schools equally across the board regardless.
If Government funds are going to teach woke, race theory, genitalia mutilation and cancel cultures
I'd rather have my kids home schooled in business, sex and lessons in love.Again, the schools in poorer areas get more funds... Period
Only in the small percentage that the federal government kicks in but schools across our country receive their funding overwhelmingly and primarily from property tax. We all know that the amounts collected vary widely.
"FAYETTEVILLE FAYE WROTE:
Government should fund schools equally across the board regardless."
Though this indicated you were speaking about the Federal government.
Those that live in areas that pay higher taxes are willing to pay those taxes for reasons such as better schools, and better upkeep of a community.
The Federal government supplements areas that have a greater need. I actually have no problem with federal funds being spent on the education of the less fortunate. I feel it is a worthy cause, and we should be taking care to educate all Americans.
The point is that stereotypical thinking and biases allow one to assume that there is no point in ensuring parody for all public schools since after all, the mindset of those people is such that it is a waste of money, anyway, right?
A while back I offered a link to what the US Government offers in education funding. I felt it bloated. And pointed to it being misused.
The poorest areas received the most ...
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