What is the difference between liberal and conservative morality?
I have been on these forums for years and have observed the difference between conservative morality and liberal morality and now with Trumpism, there is a third morality.
Conservatives could care less about Jan.6 while liberals continue to bring it up. Why is that? Because liberals believe what they saw and heard on that day. Trumpers could care less about it. In fact, they say, Trump is president now so let’s move on. In other words, look, the other way because Trump is going to do great things for this country, in fact, they are giddy about it. But to liberals it’s about the truth and accountability.
Trumpers could care less about Trump’s criminal acts. What is important to liberals’ moral compass is not important to Trumpers moral compass. The fact that he has lied over 30,000 times in his first term means nothing to them. Trump has freed 1,500 criminals from jail and now he is giving some of them prime positions in his administration. It is a strange love fest. It is apparent that if you show love to Trump, he will show it back to you. Apparently he needs to be adored by his followers, regardless if they have been convicted just like him. To me, that is a sign of extreme narcissism.
The bottom line is that liberal values are based on truth and facts and liberty for all no matter what gender or sex you are. Nature never does anything in a straight line. But Trump is legislating nature with his decrees about only two genders. Trumpers are only concerned about a woman’s vagina and preventing necessary life-saving abortions. Trumpers are only concerned about the fetus. Once the child is born, they could care less, because they will become part of the nanny state.
Trumpers define their America and patriotism by closing the borders to those who they think don’t belong here and deport them. The 14th amendment clearly states that American citizenship is a birthright for all people who are born on American soil. Trump has announced he wants to end it. Not only would this unravel 150 years of American law, it would loosen a significant cornerstone of the Constitution’s interpretation of American identity.
Now he has taken away John Bolton’s security detail that was protecting him from Iranian attacks because Bolton saw what Trump is really about and bad mouthed him. Now Bolton can be exposed and killed by Iranian terrorists. Trump is revengeful for those who tell the truth about him. I’m sure he has no problem sleeping at night because he has no conscious. His brain is not wired for remorse.
While Trump was campaigning, he kept saying he knew nothing about Project 2025, but now we are seeing it unfolding every day with our eyes and ears. It is being implemented every day he is in office and will continue for his term in office.
But in my book, he is and will always be a lying narcissistic master con-artist who has bought his way out of being convicted for many criminal acts. He has the billions to buy the best lawyers in town. They have helped him distract, delay, defend deny, and deceive until he was elected president.
If you stole a loaf of bread, you would go to jail, but not when you have billions and can buy your way out of it and become the president of the United State of America. It will be interesting to see how Project 2025 unfolds and what lasting effects it will have on all of us. I know one thing for sure. The petroleum industry does not want Drill Baby Drill, because they say we currently have the world’s largest stock pile of oil and they don’t want to spend any more money or effort increasing it.
Trump dropped out the Paris Accords which is all about global warming, but he and his people don’t believe in that. However, he is going to have to deal with the effects of it as it has created severe weather conditions in America. Politicians call it climate change, but worldwide it is global warming as ocean temperatures become warmer. It is getting colder in the east and warmer in the west.
I live in SoCal where the winds and hot weather have created a literal holocaust. I know he hates our state and our governor. It will be interesting to see how he deals with that and with no FEMA to pay for the damages to people and structures.
I know this is not going to change any Trumpers minds, but this forum gives me a way to express myself and my observations of what I think is happening to our country in terms of the differences in moral justice..I’m not going to delve into my deeper views, but I’ll try to lightly respond to your post.
It’s clear you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about these issues, and I can appreciate that you feel strongly about them. However, it's important to keep in mind that people’s perspectives, especially regarding politics and morals, are shaped by a variety of experiences and values. When it comes to Trump supporters, it’s not about ignoring the truth or accountability, but rather about focusing on what they see as positive contributions or progress, even while acknowledging flaws.
The moral differences you point out aren’t always as simple as you might perceive. For example, many conservatives view the issue of abortion and gender through a different lens, prioritizing the protection of life and freedom of speech, but that doesn’t mean they lack empathy or care about other issues. There’s also often a tendency to assume motives and intentions without considering the broader context of the political landscape.
As for the 14th Amendment, there’s ongoing debate about immigration policy, and while you may not agree with Trump’s stance, it’s important to recognize that others feel just as strongly about border security and the rule of law. On matters of character, many conservatives also call out Trump when they disagree with his actions. It’s not all about blind loyalty, but rather about focusing on what they believe he can do for the country.
While you may see Trump’s actions through a critical lens, others interpret them differently, sometimes seeing them as necessary for preserving certain values. That being said, I think it’s worth noting that adopting a superior attitude toward those who disagree with you isn’t helpful in fostering productive dialogue. Everyone deserves respect, regardless of their political stance, and treating people with an open mind can go a long way in understanding where they’re coming from. It’s essential to have a balanced view of both sides of the discussion instead of assuming one side has a monopoly on morality or truth. We all need to remember that healthy discourse is rooted in respect for differing views, not just in reinforcing our own.What you have said in so many words is there is a difference in conservative and liberal moral values. While experience may play a minor role in those values, I believe they are imbedded in our DNA. What is morally important to Trumpers politically is not as important to me politically and vice versa.
We are driven by fulfilling our needs because it makes us feel good when they are fulfilled. When they are not fulfilled it makes feel bad.
Trumpers love to go to his rallies because it fulfills a need in them and also a need in him... I on the other hand would not go to one if he paid me to go. It's what cognitive dissonance is all about. I had a need to write and post this forum because it fulfills a need in me.
I have a conservative friend who says, I respect your opinion, but don't try to change mine. That is cognitive dissonance at work.
Thanks for dropping by.I wanted to share that I can see you put a lot of thought into your original post. I feel that more threads like this would be a positive thing.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts so thoughtfully. I completely understand what you’re saying about the difference in moral values between conservatives and liberals, and how deeply rooted those values can feel—almost like they’re part of who we are. I also think you’re right that we’re driven by fulfilling our needs, and those needs vary widely depending on our beliefs, experiences, and what resonates with us personally.
It’s interesting how you describe the dynamic at Trump rallies and how they fulfill something specific for his supporters. Even though that’s not something that appeals to you, your perspective helps highlight how we all seek connection and validation in different ways. I also appreciate your point about respecting opinions while not trying to change someone else’s—it reflects a healthy way to approach differences, even when cognitive dissonance is in play.
Thanks again for posting this—it’s always good to hear different viewpoints. I hope others stop in and share.You're a good person, you try to find common ground and express opinions in a moderate light.
Just wanted to say that.
The old saying: "two wrongs don't make a right"...
Its one thing to have many negative feelings towards Trump or "the right".
The problem, as I see it, was the willingness to be completely blind to the corruption and criminal acts of "their side" the last 4 years.
Whether it was about reckless spending and inflation.
Or the Border being open in fact, if not in words/propaganda.
Or the starting of new wars and the sabotage of negotiations and treaties.
Or the cover up that "they" put into office a man with dementia.
Three elections of them ignoring the people on "their" side, giving the voters Clinton rather than Sanders... or Biden rather than Sanders... or Harris rather than a real Primary.
Its a head scratcher for sure...
But clearly by 2024, the majority of Americans had finally caught on.In my comment to PeoplePower, I addressed his thoughts on the differences in moral values between conservatives and liberals, recognizing how deeply rooted and personal those values can be. I shared my agreement that our priorities often stem from a mix of innate beliefs, learned experiences, and what resonates with us personally.
Your comment brings up a different, though related, issues—how blind loyalty to one’s political side can lead to ignoring corruption and mismanagement. I completely agree with this perspective, and I think it’s an important point to consider. Blind allegiance often results in overlooking serious issues, like reckless spending, the chaos at the border, the mismanagement of foreign conflicts, or questionable leadership choices.
What makes this topic different is that it moves beyond personal moral values and focuses on the practical consequences of refusing to hold one’s own side accountable. I’ve seen how this has played out, from policy failures to the sidelining of popular candidates within the Democratic Party, like Sanders in favor of Clinton or Biden. Your thought about voters finally catching on by 2024 resonates with me because I agree with that thought 100%.It was the character assassination of anyone who stepped out of line and questioned what was going on.
Elon Musk is the primary example of this, he was a 'Lefty'... he was pursuing EVs and Solar Energy and Peace not War stuff, no debating this.
He was also very open minded, and this led to his becoming Public Enemy #2 right behind Trump... because he would expose corruption when he found it, like the Twitter Files... or he would call out BS when California told him he had to shut down his facilities because of Covid, well after the time when other States had reversed that trend and removed restrictions due to the Pandemic... and so on...
I think another big one was how the Biden Administration went on the attack against him because he would not unionize Tesla and he would not support their DEI initiatives... and when you are building cutting edge technologies like Neuralink and Space X you don't have a place for idiocy like DEI, you need the best most competent people for the job, regardless of race or sex, or the government's quota system.
On a side note, employees in Tesla and Space X (and I know plenty of them) are now millionaires because they got stocks, in addition to a hefty salary. They wouldn't get anything like that working for GM or Ford or NASA even.
Instead of embracing him, they went out of their way to destroy him...Yes, the comment was definitely a character assassination, but is this really new? Haven’t we heard all of People Power’s grievances—and more—already? I could have argued and pointed out my own views on each issue, but honestly, I’ve pretty much beaten that dead horse countless times. It should be clear that we have two sides here on the HP forum, and it’s also obvious that we’re not going to change each other’s minds. I feel like you already know how I feel about most of the issues surrounding Biden, Trump, and both parties.
My comment to People Power was really about drawing a civil line in the sand. What I mainly wanted to point out was, “It was interesting how he describes the dynamic at Trump rallies and how they fulfill something specific for his supporters. Even though that’s not something that appeals to him, his perspective helps highlight how we all seek connection and validation in different ways. I just wanted to remind him that we all have different perspectives on these issues.
I agree with your thoughts on Elon Musk. It's clear that over the past decade, the left has really tried to cancel people, but I feel that era is behind us. They've ended up looking foolish, especially when it comes to going after Musk. He's clearly a genius, an entrepreneur, and a humanitarian. Their attempts to cancel him totally backfired, and in a way, they did us a favor. The left and Democrats look ridiculous—they lost and were outdone by a man they tried so hard to cancel. I’m not sure why more people don’t see that.
I recognized this, which is why I was confident Trump would win. I also believe he'll accomplish historic things in his next four years—and he'll make it all look effortless.I have had a lot of (CBT) Cognitive Based Therapy. It is actually very simple. When you view Trump, you see your glass half full because you are expecting all the good things he is going to do for the country and it makes you feel good.
When I view Trump, I see his glass half empty and it makes me feel bad because I focus on the bad things he has done and I'm afraid of what he is going to do with the country..
However, when you view Biden, you see his glass half empty because you are only focused on the bad things you think he has done and it makes you feel bad.
When I view Biden, I see his glass half full, because I focus on the good things he has done as president and for the country and it makes me feel good.
CBT also has to do with framing. If you look at a picture of people sun bathing on the beach and it has a black frame around it, you know something is wrong and it makes you feel uneasy. However if you view the same picture and it has a bright cheery colored frame around it that is very pleasing, then you feel good.
That is precisely what politicians do. They frame their narratives to make themselves look good and make their opponents look bad, based on ones values and belief systems.
The idea is to look for the good things in people and events so that you feel good. I can't do that with Trump and I'm sure you can't do that with Biden because we have too much invested in our values and belief systems. So we are back to cognitive dissonance.
That will be $50.00 for this session please.This is an interesting comment, and there’s a lot to unpack. While the analogy to CBT and framing is thoughtful, I think it oversimplifies why people form opinions about political figures. The idea that our views of Trump or Biden depend entirely on whether we focus on the good or bad aspects of their actions feels a bit reductive. I believe people’s perspectives are shaped by more than just emotions or framing—they’re also informed by facts, policies, and real-world impacts. For example, someone might support Trump’s economic policies while disliking his rhetoric or admire Biden’s legislative accomplishments but criticize his handling of certain crises.
I also think the beach picture analogy oversimplifies how framing works. While it’s true that politicians frame narratives to influence public opinion, I’d argue that critical thinkers can look beyond the "frame" to evaluate the substance. For instance, I don’t dislike Biden because of a negative narrative; I criticize him because I disagree with his policies, like how he’s handled inflation or the border. Similarly, many who oppose Trump do so because of his actions, not just because of how he’s framed by the media.
I found the reference to cognitive dissonance interesting but not entirely convincing. Cognitive dissonance suggests discomfort from holding conflicting beliefs, but many people seem completely at peace with their views on political figures. It feels more like a question of deeply held priorities rather than psychological discomfort. For me, it’s not about being unable to see the good in someone like Biden—it’s that I find his policies and leadership don’t align with what I value most.
The suggestion to focus on the good in people and events is a positive outlook, but I don’t think it’s always practical in politics. Leaders need to be held accountable. Simply ignoring serious issues to “feel good” can lead to complacency. For example, I wouldn’t want to overlook Trump’s denying the results of the 2020 or Biden’s handling of the Afghanistan withdrawal just to focus on their positive traits. Accountability matters, and while I agree that framing plays a role, politics is far too nuanced to reduce to psychological concepts like framing or cognitive dissonance. For me, it’s about balancing optimism with critical evaluation, and that requires a deeper dive into substance rather than just focusing on how things are framed.
So, with all that said, I guess I’ll leave you with this: I’ve dissected your comment, debated your points, and maybe even learned a little along the way. But as for that $50 bill? I’m afraid I’ll have to frame it with a bright, cheery border—and send it right back to you.
PS. I’m a big believer in CBT and use it to manage my own life. I think it’s such a powerful tool for handling challenges because it helps me take control of my thoughts and reactions. It’s been a game-changer in my life.Wow ... It would be interesting to see your list of good things Biden did.
That might have to do with perception...
I can't think of one thing he did that was positive... perception...
You may think joining the Paris Accord was a good thing, or funding with billions of taxpayer dollars support for the Compact on Migration was a good thing ...
While I see his warmongering, every alienated ally pushed into China's arms a bad thing, in addition to seeing the above, that you might consider good, as harmful to our nation.
It will go down as the worst administration since Buchanan, I'm certain of it.North Korea conducts missile test, vows 'toughest' stance against US...
And we have a very elderly imbecile in office...
North Korea conducted a strategic cruise missile test on Saturday, state media KCNA reported.
In a separate KCNA report on Sunday, North Korea's foreign ministry vowed the "toughest counteraction" against the United States as long as Washington "refuses" Pyongyang's sovereignty.
Oh no, what happened to the love letters??
The "no wars" president...
Trump again demands to buy Greenland in ‘horrendous’ call with Danish PM...
Donald Trump had a fiery phone call with Danish prime minister Mette Frederiksen over his demands to buy Greenland, according to senior European officials.
Speaking to the Financial Times, officials said that Trump, then still president-elect, spoke with Frederiksen for 45 minutes last week, during which he was described to be aggressive and confrontational about Frederiksen’s refusal to sell Greenland to the US....This is what you find that Biden did that was "good"? Strange...
These are Trump's current actions... We've got North Korea vowing it's toughest stance ever against America and Trump stirring up a war with Greenland... Yeah, not good
Well, I thought they sounded like your concept of Trump's actions, but the post you were replying to ask for your ideas of what BIDEN did that was good. So it was a little confusing.
You ask and you shall receive. This is from your ever loving Fox News..
Give Biden his due, he has been one of the best presidents of our time
by Juan Williams, opinion contributor at Fox News
First, let’s start with the economy.
His critics harp on the economy as his major failing. It is the reason, they say, the GOP triumphed in the 2024 elections and will control the White House, Senate and House of Representatives in a few weeks.
The critics are so wrong that history will judge them as dizzy on their own lies.
The fact is that as Biden leaves office the U.S. economy is the envy of the world.
Remember that when Biden came into office the U.S. economy was in such bad shape that a recession was widely forecast by Republicans and Democrats.
Four years later, no recession ever gripped the American economy thanks to Biden.
Today American stocks account for 65 percent of global equities.
The historical record tells us the U.S. financial holdings now dwarfs the combined totals of Japan, China and the United Kingdom. The per capita GDP of the poorest U.S. state — Mississippi — is roughly equal to the United Kingdom.
And the job market flourished under Biden. Unemployment hit record lows. There are historic gains in wage growth. Without a doubt, America remains the best place in the world to do business or hold a job.
Thanks, President Biden.
I can hear the naysayers raising a ruckus. What about inflation?
Good point. Biden did spur inflation by pumping money into the economy. But what was the alternative? The rescue measures kept the economy afloat and millions of people out of bankruptcy.
And to repeat, the recession never happened. And inflation is coming down.
No. 2 on the scorecard is his winning record as commander-in-chief.
Biden ended America’s longest war, the war in Afghanistan.
Three previous presidents agreed it was an endless, mostly pointless use of the military.
Biden stood tall and withdrew U.S. troops from Afghanistan. As Biden said in his 2021 speech announcing the withdrawal, “No amount of military force would ever deliver a stable, united, and secure Afghanistan … known in history as the ‘graveyard of empires.’”
The withdrawal was undeniably tragic — 13 American military died. But how many lives were saved by getting Americans off that battlefield? Ask the British and the Russians who lost thousands when they withdrew.
Also on the scorecard is Biden’s remarkable leadership in fighting Russian aggression against Ukraine without putting U.S. troops in danger.
Biden built an international coalition to support Ukraine. He reinforced the principle that no country is free to grab territory from a neighbor. Biden’s steadfast support for Ukraine also sent a clear message to China about U.S. commitments to defend Taiwan.
Biden also upheld America’s longstanding alliance with Israel at great political cost as Israel stirred global angst by exercising little restraint in going after the terrorist group Hamas.
Thank you, President Biden.
The scorecard shows big domestic wins for Biden.
Biden beat back an attempted insurrection by Donald Trump after the 2020 election.
Modern America had no experience with the threat to democracy posed by the Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol. Biden steadily held to the principle of free and fair elections.
He never stooped to lies about election fraud.
He never threatened local election officials or retaliated against Trump.
His presidency is a testament to the resilience of American democracy in the face of unprecedented challenges.
Thank you, President Biden.
The scorecard does show Biden committing errors.
His decision to stay in the 2024 race until a disastrous debate performance was a big mistake born of ego and opened the door to Trump’s return.
The scorecard shows a second big error in his pardon of his son after promising to uphold the law even when it came to his family.
Yes, he has reason to worry about the incoming president’s talk about retaliation against political foes. But Biden looks hypocritical.
Here’s the final score:
The scrappy kid from Scranton made America a better place.
Americans may find themselves longing for the Biden years. They may even ask him — or his capable vice president — to step back into the fray and save the nation once more.
For now, we owe Joe Biden our gratitude. Thank you, Mr. President, for a job well done.
The haters can take a walk to Mount Rushmore.
Juan Williams is senior political analyst for Fox News Channel, a prize-winning civil rights historian and author of “New Prize for these Eyes: the Rise of America’s Second Civil Rights Movement.”I read it... Perception... And a good understanding of economics and the massive debt problem left behind... While BRICS grew in power and influence by leap and bounds.
While Russia was not stopped ... And Ukraine lost far more than it would have if negotiations had been kept or allowed...
A person who is more ignorant of the facts or the price in lives paid... could perhaps read that and believe the well worded nonsense typed...
But I am not such a person.
We are only lucky things did not get even worse than a couple million souls being lost in his wars and idiocy of an Administration.Ken,
You are right about perception. Most leaders around the world saw biden as a cognitively impaired man who wondered off, would say incoherent things when he spoke, fell down many times and seemed to not be mentally or emotionally connected to what was happening around him. Now we're learning biden's cognitive issues were evident from the early days of his presidency. The democrats have no moral code and simply let a cognitively impaired individual give the illusion he was running the country. It was obvious to any who saw him. The lapdogs in the media, the democrats, his family all gaslit Americans about his mental condition. It's obvious democrats have no shame with any lie they tell.
Putin himself has said the war in Ukraine would not have happened should President Donald Trump have been elected. Think of all the death and destruction that would have been avoided if the democrats hadn't stolen the 2020 election. This is on them.
"Putin Says War in Ukraine Might Not Have Happened Had Trump Been President
"Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday said the 2022 invasion of Ukraine that resulted in a full-blown war might not have happened had Donald Trump been U.S. president at the time.
President Trump has said at various times that the war would not have broken out had he been in office in 2022, including in a Wednesday post on Truth Social. On Friday, Putin addressed such remarks in an interview with Rossiya TV correspondent Pavel Zarubin.
"I cannot but agree with him that if he had been president—if his victory hadn't been stolen in 2020—then maybe there would not have been the crisis in Ukraine that emerged in 2022," Putin said.
Newsweek reached out to the White House and the Kremlin via email on Friday for comment.
https://www.newsweek.com/putin-war-russ … nt-2020490First, the election was not stolen from Trump. It's the other way around. Trump tried to steal the election from Biden and he failed miserably. The only reason he is not in jail is because he bought his way out by using his high paid lawyers to give him enough time to get elected.
He got a get out of jail free card. And then he gave that card to all his insurrectionist, like the proud boys and oath keepers. It's a strange love fest with them adoring Trump to feed his sick ego and he in turn releasing them to do whatever insurrectionist do.
You and kens' posts are full of indeterminate words like should have, could have, might have and would have. Those are not facts, they are suppositions and conjecture. I noticed you and others didn't deny his accomplishments, but you try to connect them to his last days when he blew that debate with Trump and the results they may have had with foreign countries.I deny anything you consider an "accomplishment" by Biden as being 'good'.
I think that whole corrupt cabal... the Clintons, Bidens, Pelosi, etc. are the definition of criminal and traitors to the Nation.
I think they used their position in the government to enrich themselves while causing an undefinable amount of death and destruction with their efforts... while greatly harming America's position in the world, the stability of our economy and without their efforts BRICS would probably be a decade away from where it is today.
Anyone that defends what the Democrats did, hiding Biden's dementia, choosing Clinton, then Biden, then Harris and stealing the choice from the voters... quite frankly I have no interest in debating things with.
I just want to set the record straight in the regards that I believe YOUR perception to be nearly 100% in error, and that you devotedly support one of the most criminal Administrations to ever run the American government.
And that is my Perception... it won't be changed by anything you type.You are absolutely right. It is your perception, not facts. It's not facts until you can provide sources for all your claims. It's not my perception these are undeniable facts. You have the right to deny them, but they are still proven facts. Please prove these statements are not facts.
You asked for his accomplishments, but you can't accept them as being good. Then you pivot to democrats being criminals when the world all knows that Trump is one of the biggest criminals in the world. He just has the money to buy his way out of accountability for all his criminal acts. Please tell me why these accomplishments are bad.
Remember that when Biden came into office the U.S. economy was in such bad shape that a recession was widely forecast by Republicans and Democrats.
Four years later, no recession ever gripped the American economy thanks to Biden.
Today American stocks account for 65 percent of global equities.
The historical record tells us the U.S. financial holdings now dwarfs the combined totals of Japan, China and the United Kingdom. The per capita GDP of the poorest U.S. state — Mississippi — is roughly equal to the United Kingdom.
And the job market flourished under Biden. Unemployment hit record lows. There are historic gains in wage growth.
Biden beat back an attempted insurrection by Donald Trump after the 2020 election.
Modern America had no experience with the threat to democracy posed by the Jan. 6 riot at the Capitol. Biden steadily held to the principle of free and fair elections.
He never stooped to lies about election fraud.
He never threatened local election officials or retaliated against Trump.
His presidency is a testament to the resilience of American democracy in the face of unprecedented challenges.
Please prove all these statements as lies. You can't because you have too much invested in Trump who has lied over 30,000 documented times in his first term and continues to lie now as well.
What you have is called Cognitive Dissonance. If you accepted what I have posted, your whole political world would come crashing down like a house of cards.In order to get to the TRUE facts... the root of all our current woes, within and abroad... you have to go back to the 1990s... the Clinton Admin... the fall of the USSR and the decisions made by those who could pull the strings.
You have to go back to those who supported NAFTA and the repeal of Glass Steagall and a myriad of changes made to our banking system... all from the Clinton Admin timeframe.
There was a continuation of the destruction of America since then, Trump was a speed bump to their plans in 2016... and Trump 2024 is a re-affirmation that the majority of Americans know their government is corrupt and they want to change that... Trump is the tool of that change.
Here... a timestamped video that talks to the heart of where the problems really began, and how tens of trillions of dollars have been siphoned out of America and funneled to various other entities, giving them the wealth and power, not the least of which is BlackRock:
https://youtu.be/O3Ivv6jjixE?t=300
Supporting those that have stolen from America the nation and American Citizens and the hope and dreams for a better world is what you do when you try and justify the criminal cabal that has enabled this to happen... the Clintons and Bidens moreso, or as much as, any in DC ever did.
This has become so abundantly obvious to the majority of Americans today that the Democrat Party will not enjoy a majority again until the 2030s... at the earliest.
After Trump... and then after Vance, who can talk off his cuff about issues better than a well prepared Professor can, the guy is sharp, articulate and has no fear of the Media and their ignorant framing of issues.
It is clear that Trump went in with a plan this time and knew what he was up against (unlike 2016)... it will be a 4 year... more likely 8 year (Vance will get at least 1 term) run unlike anything we have seen since the Reagan years... maybe better.
"However, it's important to keep in mind that people’s perspectives, especially regarding politics and morals, are shaped by a variety of experiences and values. When it comes to Trump supporters, it’s not about ignoring the truth or accountability, but rather about focusing on what they see as positive contributions or progress, even while acknowledging flaws."
Let me ask you, do you think it is immoral to lie in almost all instances?
If so, what rational do you use to justify the historic volume of lying Trump does, large or small, with both lethal and non-lethal outcomes as being mere "flaws"? To me that would override any good you might see in him.I think the question of “lying” in politics is more complicated in practice than it sounds in theory.
Yes, I believe honesty is important, and deliberate deception is wrong. But I also think it matters whether we are talking about clear, intentional falsehoods meant to mislead people, versus statements that are exaggerated, imprecise, or spoken from a point of view rather than a carefully verified factual record. In politics, especially in real-time interviews, rallies, or off-the-cuff remarks, those lines often get blurred.
With Trump specifically, I don’t view everything he says through the lens of “intentional lying.” A lot of his communication style is blunt, hyperbolic, and often blends opinion, interpretation, and fact in the same sentence. I understand why some people interpret that as dishonesty, but I don’t always see it that way. Sometimes I see it more as imprecise communication or rhetorical emphasis rather than calculated deception.
That doesn’t mean I excuse every statement or think accuracy doesn’t matter. It just means I don’t automatically categorize every incorrect or exaggerated claim as a moral failing of the same kind or weight. I evaluate it in context: what the statement was about, what the intent seemed to be, and what the broader record shows.
So when I refer to “flaws,” I’m not minimizing concerns; I’m acknowledging that no political figure is without serious shortcomings. I’m also trying to separate disagreement over style, interpretation, and messaging from assuming purely malicious intent in every instance.
We may still disagree on where that line is drawn, but I think it’s important to be precise about what we mean by “lying” before making it the central measure that overrides all other policy or leadership considerations.
Fifteen years ago I would have agreed with you on a lot of this but I do not think you have noticed how much the Democrats have changed. As several people on the left have complained lately "I did not leave the party. The party left me."
The bottom line is that Democrat liberal values are based on lies, a refucsal to accept basic biology, and supprt a view that any woman that wants to get pregnant has the right to murder he baby. Trump is trying to legislate some of those things that most people in your country agree with, and as long as the leftists claim that men can walk around girls locker rooms naked as long as they claim to be a female, pornography is okay in school libraries, and other ludicrous things like that, the Dems are handing him the power to change what he wants.
If you have problems with Trump being in power, you should be blaming Biden and the people that controlled what he was allowed to do and say.You want to blame democrats for Trump being elected and yet you made this statement: "Trump is trying to legislate some of those things that most people in your country agree with." From what I can see so far, it's not about most people agreeing with Trump. Please define "most people."
It is about him doing what he always wanted do, by satisfying his own ideals as to how the country should be run. Everybody is just along for the Project 2025 ride that has been years in the making by conservatives. It has nothing to do with democrats or Biden. It has to do with the republicans master plan to takeover the country.
I just wonder how many people who are being deported actually voted for Trump? He used them to increase his vote count. How many of those people had menial jobs that no red blooded American would want, but yet are necessary for running our economy?Most people is defined by the majority of voters in the US.
If there were unseen voters out there that did not agree with the way he thinks the US should be run they could have gotten out of the house and voted. They did not because the candidate that the Democrats selected, with absolutely no votes, was not a person who supported their values.
Despite what some people think, it was not all about inflation. If the Dems were not so interested in telling all males that they are misogynists and did not refuse to accept basic biology about crossdressers that are pretending to be women, they would have had a much better chance of winning the election.
You comment on the illegals working at jobs that no red blooded Amercian wants but anything he does, including deporting the illegals that have come to your country to continue their gang activity, is on the shoulders of the Democratic party, the ones who so effectively got Trump elected.A majority of voters supported Biden in 2020, did you respect their choice of candidate and proposed direction in the same manner?
No, and if leftists want to get on here and complain about things that is fine and certainly their right. What he said, however, was " From what I can see so far, it's not about most people agreeing with Trump. Please define "most people." I answered that question quite clearly.
You can answer it if you want. Your answer will be different but fundamentally the same. I certainly doubt that many people agree with everything he does 100% of the time. A recent survey revealed that 65 percent of Americans, and not just the voters, agreed that illegal aliens that commit crimes should be deported. (Yes, I realize it matters how you frame the question.)
I just want to congratulate you on your 100 score. That is beyond phenomenal.
My friend and pen pal, Arthur, offered the explanation below of the difference between conservative attitudes and that of more progressive people regarding the British education system. It seems like the conservative has the same agenda regardless of what side of the “pond” you are on. I liked the foundation “that all children from all social backgrounds had an equal chance to make the best of themselves”. It was never about getting as much benefit for your children that you could afford at the public school level. Yes, in this aspect they remain ahead of us.
“Shortly after I left school, the whole system changed under a Labour Government: grammar and secondary modern schools were abolished and replaced by comprehensive schools, so that children from all social backgrounds had an equal chance to make the best of themselves. Streaming was phased out for the same reason. Naturally, the Conservatives vigorously opposed these reforms at the time, as they didn’t like the idea of working‑class children being given the same opportunities as those who came through the middle‑class grammar‑school route.”
We have a grand time sharing the differences between English society and our own.It would make for an interesting conversation --- the two societies. Some similarities, but also some pretty big differences in how things work.
The history of a country is always present in the present of the country. Engnland is today still very much a class society. It's bulld in, my wife who's from London, knows even before someone starts to speak what kind of class he/she is coming from. The UK has this class system for over hundreds of years and it's not going to change in one generation with the change of a school system.
The same as the US is a country shaped by racism. the end of the segregation was only in the '60! And this systematically racism is not going to change overnight and will take lots of generations if it will ever change.
The third country, my own, The Netherlands is based upon religion. For a long time there was a system of separate religions. If you were Catholic you went to a catholic school, watched the catholic broadcaster, read the catholic newspaper, went to a catholic football club etc. Same for Reformed, you had your reformed tv broadcasting corp, reformed schools, reformed football club and newspaper etc. same for socialists and other religions.
With a result that the Netherlands has about 15 parties to choose from and the government always have to negotiate as they have to make a coalition. Which means, the extremes will always water down.
When talking about conservatives, we talk about Christian conservatives who are on the right center of the political spectrum. When we talk about Liberals, we talk about a party who is on the right side of the spectrum without religious preferences.
On the left side we use words like. The greens, the socialist party, the progressive party and the party for animal rights (3 seats in parliament).
The Netherlands must be seen through the lens of business. It's a business country. And to do business you have to be diplomatic and get along with other who don't share your point of view to get things done.
Some think that The Netherlands is a tolerant country, but it's not more or less tolerant than any other country, it's simply business with a friendly face.
How this small country became what it is, is years of history. And I think that by looking at the present politics, you have to look at how a country developed over the centuries.
Today's US president is a result of the capitalistic and aggressive mindset of the US, combined with the American dream myth and the fetishism of Hollywood stardom and more recent the social media stardom. Mix in the underbelly racism that was never properly fixed after the Civil War and Trump is the result.
(This is of course my own theory.)Peter, I know that in reality, there will always be social classes but what are they based upon?
“The UK has this class system for over hundreds of years and it's not going to change in one generation with the change of a school system.”
This is true, while there is a considerable distance to that goal, can we not begin somewhere? The fact is so much structural inequity and lack of social mobility can explain the extreme disparity in wealth attainment in our society, here in America. Do we exacerbate this or do we try to make the goal of equal opportunity for all more than just lip service?
Yes, racism has been a foundation pillar for American society, but much of the more blatant stuff has been ameliorated since the 1960’s. As, i am a witness of the transitional era since then. The goal and ideal may be impractical to obtain in perfection, but there has been and remain room for improvement.
Your 15 parties are superior to our 2 here as extremism from either ideological pole is moderated out. And yes coalitions are often necessary to move the ball forward. Here, the diplomatic and compromise is sorely lacking which does not bode well for people here. One extreme pole accuses the other of “extremism”, finding a middle as a compromise is more seen as a slippery slope of capitulation to other side.
Well, that friendly face as presented by the Netherlands means that people have to respect each other as the price of any sort of harmony. You don’t have ICE Gestapo type anti-migrant entities in your society. So, you are already ahead.
American racism is structural and institutional and for the longest time it was the prime consideration while everything else was secondary. I visited your continent many years ago, and although you may have your own sort of boogie men, at least my color and ethnicity did not constitute me as one of them. I got into more consternation just being an “American” tourist over anything else.
Today’s US President is a product of stoked fear of the outsider and great replacement theory that tickles the underlying racist and xenophobic fears that dominated the society in years past, but reemerges in people under stress. There has been no one in the history of the office that has proven so unfit for it, what other explanation can there be?
“Mix in the underbelly racism that was never properly fixed after the Civil War and Trump is the result.”
Well said,
Thanks for your theory, and allowing me to share mine as well.Yesterday I watched an interview wit Marlon Brando on the David Cavett Show. Talking about his refusal to accept the Oscar for best actor and the speech of Sacheen Littlefeather.
Marlon Brando Discusses Representation In Hollywood | Full Interview | The Dick Cavett Show
The discussion was about how Hollywood, and the media portrait Indians. And how this images ingrained itself into the mindset of many generations.
The same happened with black people and other minorities.
Marlon Brando also said something important, and that is, you can not wait for the powers that be, to take the initiative to change the situation.
If you live in a class society, politics will never change this, as politicians are the ones from the upper class.
The same for the racism in the United Sates, if Rosa Parks and many others had not addressed the constitutional racism nothing would have happened.My point exactly, Peter, even the most intractable negative patterns of behavior found in a society are not immutable.
Rosa Parks did not wait for the powers that be, because of her push, combined with as Dr King once said, “the glaring eye of the television camera” and with the pressures of the competition of the “Cold War” that portrayed America and its claim to freedom as hypocritical, it broke was always considered unbreakable.
The conservatives’ formula of evolutionary or incremental change simply was not good enough. We do even better when the “authorities” can recognize, seriously address and anticipate the need tor change making unnecessary the need for revolution.
I disagree, as the guilded class can have their power and reach contained through the popular will. Even here, they can’t just do anything that they want. From what Arthur told me about parliament and British government, the House of Lords is subordinate to the House of Commons, representing the people. Here in America, there is talk about the reinstitution of appointment of Senators by State Legislatures as the way Senators were selected prior to 1913, rather than popular elections which became the manner after 1913. I will contribute what i can to make sure that It will never see the light of day.
My point is that “these people” can be stopped and hindered into far less of a threat if the common people in unison insists on as much.
It is the conservative desire to create a comparable “House of Lords”, not answerable to the people and is consequently undemocratic.
“Those that make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolutionary change inevitable”
John Kennedy, March, 1962Most revolutions are violent. Not because the people are violent, but because the powers that be don't want a change of power, they want to hang in there as long as possible, until it erupts.
The violence of the state is tolerated in the media, but as soon as ordinary people use violence to make a point, it is seen as terrorism.
ICE is a typical example today in the US of state violence. It is set up to provoke, they want to be recorded and the want space on social media to make people feel angry, so they get an excuse to be violent. And here again, the state violence is tolerated in the state controlled media and the protests is portrait as entertainment at best.
The best revolutions are those that happen in the neighbourhoods, teaching children and forming strong bonds with fellow people. Social Media today is weaponized by the elite to promote individualism and discourage real bonding, making social connections. Only together you can make a revolution. People with smartphones, scrolling through there feeds won't.
I am in the process of adding a new chapter in my book based on this and exploring the biological/genetic factors involved.
Is this the end? Two days with no Credence2 or MyEsoteric?
GANo, it is just that the ideological pole that we represent seems to have gained the “last word”. As everyone on your side of the ideological divide has virtually “jumped ship”.
Yeah, I watched as it sank, changing from a discussion forum to a prayer wall.
GAI jumped ship when I realized Eso was talking to himself. I thought it was fair that he had the last word. Out of all those posts here, I think he needed it the most.
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