I heard someone ask that question this afternoon on PRI. He didn't predict but posed the possibility that consumption outrunning Haiti's depleted timber and soil resources, poverty and disease for many and riches for the few may be what is in store for the rest of the world if we keep on our current track.
I've wondered that myself. There's a few places like that. I've read way more than one sci-fi story that depicts humanity as little more than a race of locusts. We're not very smart, we're terribly greedy; and we tend react far more than proact.
We do have disease, natural disaster and a warlike nature working in our favor though. I reckon a combination will do what is necessary to trim our numbers down when time comes.
For the most part, I believe the opposite of what the relgious folks do: I don't think the world functions as "harmoniously" as it does because of intelligent design; I think the world is exactly as it it because it can be no other way given the variables at play.
Yeah, you'd really like to promote that scenario, doesn't surprise me. What you seem to miss, or discount, is that Haiti doesn't have far to fall from any economic or financial success as a country.
Why would you think I would like to promote that scenario? I'm in favor of doing all we can reasonably do to avoid it.
I'm willing to bet some sort of "its people who believe like you who started the history that ended up with a populace in a situation that could degenerate to the point Haiti is in" argument is coming your way.
Might be wrong though.
?? Why would I think that? Just look at your own history in this cesspool, and, hello, it is your topic.
True, I introduced the topic because I think it's worth pondering. Not because I hope it's true. I don't get your "cess pool" reference.
Really, well aren't you just the ultimate hands-off philosopher. You just love neutral and intellectual debate ....okey dokey then, had no idea, but I can do that. Do continue with your philosphical subject matter. We are all waiting for you to explain the intellectual basis for your philopohical metaphor with Haiti......waiting......waiting.
It's not my metaphor, and I don't feel obligated to explain it. But its pretty obvious and doesn't require explanation. And I don't think its exactly philosophical. It's more of an observation that if we continue on our present wasteful path we all may end up like Haiti.
Well then, maybe you should check with your source for this metaphorical topic, perhaps they could provide you with the necessary argument to support it! It would be highly enlightening to hear. Absolutely.
Perhaps you should tell us why you disagree.
Ralph - you are arguing with a troll and its babbling nonsense, it doesn't have any idea of what it is talking about, or any interest in what you are saying except to attack you.
It is probably another clone of the TKSensei/SabOh/etc/etc/ group of one uneducated person.
Your post is very relevant, as it is the greed of a few and the stupidity of the many who create these situations. Haiti was created in this way as part of the slave fuel for the early phases of the American economic model that the trolls admire so much.
Very possible indeed.
There will be a period of starvation and misery. The elite will allow ninety percent of the worldwide population to fade away. With control of monetery resources as well as now controlling global food production the ability is there. First they would have to get nations so buried in debt they have no hope of repayment. No money, no credit, NO FOOD. The worst part of it is we can all see it happening yet do nothing to stop it. Most live their lives to perpetuate this holocaust. Supporting the very systems being set up to control and eliminate you.
Who won the baseball game?
This kind of model is a world example that we can see. If we are unable to rise above the tribal politics of today, and start some kind of reasoning, we face the end of resources. This is not a long drawn out slowly running down thing - it all stops when the oil stops. Even iron and Coal stops without the oil to power the getting and moving of it. But I guess some kind of moron war will hasten the end as countries fight for the last reserves, Oh sorry, I forgot, they already are.
Intelligence is mostly about controlling our environment, as in a level of survival above the natural things that kill us, if we don't improve then we will not be able to control the processes of natural evolution that works to replace us with something higher.
c. 430 BC: China
JUST SAY NO
It is the business of the benevolent man to seek what is beneficial to the world, to eliminate what is harmful, and to provide a model for the world. What benefits man he will carry our; what does not benefit men he will leave alone. Moreover, when the benevolent man plans for the benefit of the world, he does not consider merely what will please the eye, delight the ear, gratify the mouth, and give ease to the body. If in order to gratify the senses he has to deprive the people of the wealth needed for their food and clothing, then the benevolent man will not do so. Therefore Mozi condemns music not because the sound of the great bells and rolling drums, the zithers and pipes, is not delightful; nor because the sight of the carvings and ornaments is not beautiful; not because the taste of the fried and broiled meats is not delicious; and not because lofty towers, broad pavilions, and secluded halls are not comfortable to live in. But though the body finds comfort, the mouth gratification, the eye pleasure, and the ear delight, yet if we examine the matter, we will find that such things are not in accordance with the ways of the sage kings. And if we consider the welfare of the world, we will find that they bring no benefit to the common people. therefore Mozi says: making music is wrong!
Now if the rulers and ministers want musical instruments to use in their government activities, they cannot extract them from the seawater, like salt, or dig them out of the ground, like ore. Inevitably, therefore, they must lay heavy taxes upon the common people before they can employ the sound of great bells, rolling drums, zithers, and pipes. In ancient times the sage kings likewise laid heavy taxes on the people, but this was for the purpose of making boats and carts, and when they were completed and people asked, "What are these for?" the sage kings replied, "The boats are for use on water, and the carts are for use on land so that gentlemen may rest their feet and laborers spare their shoulders." So the common people paid their taxes and levies and did not dare to grumble. Why? Because they knew that the taxes would be used for the benefit of the people. Now if musical instruments were also used for the benefit of the people, I would not venture to condemn them. Indeed, if they were as useful as the boats and carts of the sage kings, I would certainly not venture to condemn them.
These are three things the people worry about: that when they are hungry they will have no food, when they are cold they will have no clothing, and when they are weary they will have no rest. These are the three great worries of the people. No let us try sounding the great bells, striking the rolling drums, strumming the zithers, blowing the pipes, and waving the shields and axes in the war dance. Does this do anything to provide food and clothing for the people? I hardly think so. But let us leave that point for the moment.
Now there are great states that attack small ones and great families that molest small ones. The strong oppress the weak, the many tyranize the few, the cunning deceive the stupid the eminent lord it over the humble, and bandits and thieves rise up on all sides and cannot be suppressed. Now let us try sounding the great bells, striking the rolling drums...and waving the shields and axes in the war dance. Does this do anything to rescue the world from chaos and restore it to order. I hardly think so. Therefore Mozi says: if you try to promote what is beneficial to the world and eliminate what is harmful by laying heavy taxes on the people for the purpose of making bells, drums, zithers, and pipes, you will get nowhere. So Mozi says making music is wrong....."
Mozi from "Against Music." Born a few years after Confucious' death, Mozi professed the doctrine of undifferentiated love: "When everyone regards the states and cities of others as he regards his own, no one will attack the others' state or seize the others' cities." His disdain for music was part of a larger critique of the aristocracy's lavish banquets and theatrical performances.
Lapham Quarterly, Spring 2010
Unemployment is 20 percent in Michigan, yet Bentley's, BMWs, Mercedes, Cadillacs and Lincolns are selling like hot cakes.
There is a really good book written by Jared Diamond
It's called "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed"
It analyzes the demise of several societies, past and present. For instance, Easter Island.
There is a chapter about Haiti in the book.
It also explains how another island society with limited resources - Japan - succeeds, and how they have sustained their society throughout the centuries.
It's a great book. This thread made me think of it immediately.
We are beginning to cannabalize ourselves in many fashions.
Japan succeeds for many reasons including the willingness to sacrifice in the short term for what's best for the long term of it's society.
Self discipline is never easy, but always necessary!
Self discipline and sacrifice makes me immediately think of worth ethic. Once upon a time this country had a great work ethic alive and well in its citizens, passed down from generations before them. I do think it is still alive in many Americans, but I also think there are too many in our Country now whose only work ethic is to do it as little as possible and be supported and assisted as much as possible by Uncle Sam -- which is certainly cannabilizing at its worst.
I consider Haiti to be a very distorted society, where capitalism has been able to run rampant and unchecked for a very long time in order to benefit foreign interests and a miniscule minority of Haitians. I believe (or maybe I should say hope) that most other societies have inbuilt mechanisms to stop this happening. For this reason, I would not agree that Haiti is a mirror of what will happen globally in the future.
I think the thought behind this is that our 'inbuilt mechanisms' seem to be failing. The lies about WMD, Bush dodgy election, etc etc - we are clearly lied to and manipulated but everything carries on as normal. and we go to the polls to choose which one of a tiny group will run the lie machine for the next few years.
Wow, just the last decade has caused all of the ills of America. Wow.
Or would it be the trolls in America who babble as you referred to me personally? Just checking.
And, just how do your rhetorical words in any way respond intelligently to what this person has said so very clearly?
I know - hard for you to understand discussion. Reading the question and then the answer is the way most people do it.
YES! If we would hold them accountable *for once*...maybe it would stop.
Just like this police sargeant in Chicago...did you hear about that? TORTURING prisoners to get false confessions out of them...using methods that came to light at Abu Gharib!!!
"Trial Begins for Ex-Chicago Police Lt. Accused of Torturing More than 100 African American Men"
Anyway--they are charging him with lesser crimes because the REAL crimes are past the point of prosecuting due to how long ago it was (can't think of the legal term)
But we have legal provable crimes committed by our past leaders...CURRENT past leaders..... in charge, and the new ones in charge won't go after them....
We should make them. New Tea-party...the Hold Them Accountable Party.
Or else how is it ever going to end?
Thanks very much for contributing your thoughts on this topic. I would add though that capitalism in Haiti itself is not very apparent -- otherwise, it would be a much different country.
The only thing apparent that I can see has been the historical theft of the aid of foreign interests, and that's not capitalism. Successful societies must be moral ones that don't seek to subject and keep low their citizens, don't seek to maintain an extreme distance between the poor and the rich, don't seek to keep their citizens supplicants and beggars. Instead, they make available the ability for any and all to succeed and provide for themselves.
Where is Ron? He had the Troll Replellent.
I suppose out of all this the real question is is how are the people of haiti going?? We havent been told much via the media here for sometime.. I feel like we are forgetting them and I constantly mean to look and find out.. yet.. I dont seem to make the extra effort to find out.. I must do so - that is my goal for tomorrow to look at what is happening in haiti.
Very good point ralph. It may take years for the rest of the world to use there resources but it could happen
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