Is it ALL about CONTROL?

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65
aka-djposted 12 years ago
Cagsil wrote...
"Control, pure and simple. "

Not that I quote him as the originator of the statement, but merely "parroting" this idea that Religion is all about "controlling the masses".

Though this is partly true, I disagree that it can be used as a blanket statement (as many seem to use it).

Any believer who is not part of a religious institution is not being controlled by said institution.

So, in these cases (and there are huge numbers of people in this group) just WHO is doing the controlling?

If you are part of a country/community/culture, are you NOT controlled by the very group laws, customs, politics, etc.

Ultimately we are ALL controlled by something (system).

What's your take on this?
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1. 57
  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, they are. Believers interpret and cherry pick what they want to believe, but they are still gleaning all of their beliefs from the institutions from which those beliefs originated.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  This is also true of you, and every other person on the planet.
  Believer and unbeliever alike.
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  57
  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry, but I have no idea what you're talking about???
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2. 58
  Jeramiposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It is like this!
  
  From the bottom of the food chainto the top it's all about control and dominance ... to the point required for survival.
  
  Ain't No difference , just cause we are talking about psychology and sociology.
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3. 87
  Marisa Wrightposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think that is the origin of many organized religions. It's much easier to convince people to accept a life of struggle and poverty, if you hold out the promise of a rich reward in the afterlife. Ancient Egypt is an extreme example of how that was used by the elite to control the populace, but it's repeated over and over again in history.
  
  Church and state are less intertwined now in most countries.
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  60
  Hollie Thomasposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Completely agree, Weber's Protestant Ethic and the spirit of capitalism, illustrates how societies fear of god and the afterlife were manipulated to the point were working hard for little reward became an ethic amongst the poor.
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4. 51
  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I don't think it is correct.
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You misquote me!
  Please read the OP!
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5. 78
  schoolgirlforrealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  We are controlled by the govt in some ways.
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  70
  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Do you know why though?
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  78
  schoolgirlforrealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I think it's because they want to control people and convince them to give up their rights, like in 911 they convinced people they need more protection which gives us less rights, thereby continuing on the way to a police state. I think the powerful people of the world want to make it a one world religion-New Order- and make people like sheep. Am I right at all? I haven't been recently following this topic. But it's clear we are slowly losing our rights.
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  70
  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're close.
  
  People are not trusted to do what's in their own best interests and/or the best interests of others. Meaning, a higher authority was put in place because people more often than not, do not do what's right for the sake of it being right.
  
  So, laws(government) and religion(god's laws) were put into place.
  
  First it was "god's laws"(religion) done so by original mystic rulers and when the human species grew too fast/quickly, and many were not following "god's laws"(religion), then governments were put into place under the guise of unity(nation's best interests).
  
  Edit: It all boils down to control of the masses.
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  78
  schoolgirlforrealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Yes. Well this is good more than bad. Because if we didn't have control like laws etc, the people who didn't follow would succeed in hurting everyone else.
  
  Unfortunately, there are flaws in both religion and laws. Many go to jail who are innocent
  But someone said recently..that's the price we pay, there's really no perfect system that I would know of.
  And yes religious flaws too. But it's good we live in a world of more enlightened people along with science which keeps it in check I think to try and get rid of ridiculous things and allow freedom of religion as long as it's not hurting people.
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  70
  Cagsilposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The only religion that would be completely acceptable and unable to hurt others is Understanding One's Own Life. To do anything else, like mystic inclinations are not only hurting oneself, but are also hurting others.
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  78
  schoolgirlforrealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  OK. well, since I'm so sick all the time, I need hope. Christiantiy gives me that hope for now. To be honest. Nuff said.
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  78
  schoolgirlforrealposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I also understand people think religion is controlling. I honestly don't know much about the inquistion. I should really do some research. I'm lazy in that category to be honest.
  
  I know a lot of wrong things have been done in the name of God like the muslims being told they can do suicide killings and get 72 (is that the correct #?) virgins.
  
  I've heard lots of cults do terrible things.
  
  I'm sure every faith has done wrong things, but at the very least there are people who use the ideas faith projects to try to live well.
  
  I know many nonbelievers are great people and live by morals, but some people are not the same, for whatever reason, they prefer or need a guideline like the Ten Commandments for example.
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Emile Rposted 12 years ago
Dj, I do see religion as all about an attempt to control. There's a definite hoop every religion watches like hawks. If that hoop isn't jumped through, then the religious are certain people are destined for hell, and they dash about proclaiming it. I'm not sure how their behavior could be viewed otherwise.
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1. 65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I know!
  But, "Who are THEY?"
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  Emile Rposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  They, to me, are any who use religion as a means to attempt to intimidate others into changing their actions to fall in line with what 'they' personally believe.
  
  Belief is a great thing, if used to become a more balanced person. I simply think our beliefs are meant to be ours, and ours alone. We are each unique. Attempts to create uniformity of belief negatively effects the balance. Every step a person takes to line up belief with that of another, adversely changes the balance by geometric proportions.
  
  I don't know any other way to say it, except that spirituality is an internal search. You can't attempt to pull people in to your belief structure without sucking the life out of the person you attempt to convince to live life your way.
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  60
  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You, for one, Aka. Here you are defending the control an imaginary being has over your thoughts and actions. You feel impelled to try and obey rules you've been taught have been created by an invisible deity instead of by basic tribal laws.
  
  These same laws were established long before many of the ancient gods--including your own--were ever conceived. Not only the cult leaders, but many of the self righteous followers themselves, enjoy a power trip of sorts when the sheep allow them to control their thoughts and lives through fear.
  
  Sound like simple politics? It's one and the same for many "true believers" as the end justifies the means in their minds. Yeah I know, a hell of a long YES as an answer to the OP!
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Of course, you are an exception.
  You live by NO rules.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Good morning /evening/afternoon ladies and gentlemen! (I can't find my world clock or remember all your time zones. I hope the world is good to you today.
  
  Goddunnit.
  
  G'Day DJ.
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  It's a "G'day" indeed.
  
  We have had so much beautiful weather in the Sunshine State lately, HOW could it be anything BUT?
  
  How's lovely Melbourne these days?
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Early spring, chocka with birds and sunshine, cool and very beautiful.
  I love this city. It is so green! I have 100 foot gum trees all around me.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Always pleased to hear of good weather in the States. You have had the lot lately as we have.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  ONE DAY. ONE DAY. I will get back down there!!!
  
  I have been twice my whole life.
  1st time when I was just a kid, but don't remember much past my uncle's place. (Who no longer lives there).
  2nd time was for a Church Conference in the Dandenong area, but we never left there over the weekend. Juts took a bit of a detour through town on our way out again. That was around 1987.
  
  I recon much has changed. Several people I know that have been, loved it.
  
  I'll try and meet you for a cuppu. (No arguments over religion at that meeting though.
  
  And, BTW. MY SOUT!!
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Love to see you down under. Yes Australia has become an ultra modern country with very good infrastructure in the last 20 or so years and has grown a lot.
  
  There is always plenty to talk about apart from religion. I am planning to be in America soon as well, although I have had a setback with time because of family responsibilities. I will take in a bit of Canada again if I can. I love Canada as well as the states.
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  By saying Sunshine State, I meant Queensland.
  
  You forgot where I live, ye?
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Sorry Dj, I get used to all the believers coming from America so it was sort of an automatic response.
  
  Queensland is indeed the sunshine state. I used to spend southern winters there and in Northern NSW when I had my businesses. So much to do and see in our big hot state. You guys even have real fishing!
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Real fishing, indeed. If you know where and how.
  
  All the "easy" places are pretty fished out.
  
  However, family pressures are compelling us to move (back) to Sydney.
  So, it is only a short stay from today. Just wanting to sell my business and we're off.
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wonder dj, what type of business. Good luck with selling it, there is still a bit of money around for business purchases down here.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Window tinting.
  If you know a Melbourne-ite who wants to move up, and start work straight away...let me know.
  
  Not asking huge dollars either.
  Better that scabbing at a Hospitality Industry job. The money is lousy there!
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  earnestshubposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'll ask around dj.
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  60
  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  How did you come to that conclusion, Aka? Merely because I have no invisible deity guiding my every decision doesn't mean I have no conscience or the ability to tell right from wrong.
  
  The same basic laws covered by the mythical Ten Commandments are part of the rules of any organized group of people living in close proximity to each other. They never needed a god to tell them the difference between right and wrong, especially your own particular favored deity.
  
  Some of these same primitive cultures were first introduced to your "god" by those raping, murdering, and pillaging for gold in the name of your guy. Funny how the same thing still happens in today's world with those like you championing the cause. I'll bet you don't see it that way, though!
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You're absolutely right.
  I DON'T see it that way.
  
  One reason being that I "cherry pick". (Consume the good stuff, spit out the pips, and leave out the bad stuff!)
  Second, I don't rape, murder and pillage for gold (riches of this world).
  
  I concluded about you, the same way you concluded about me. At random, from what you have posted in the past. "
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Nope, I conclude nothing at random, Aka. You are completely free to believe what you wish, whether fact or fairy tale. Plus, if you can give me a reason to believe your god is any more real than any other former or present god or gods, I promise to look closely at your argument. I have no reason not to do so and never have.
  
  It seems as if those who use their common sense to examine the claims of your religion have especially been handicapped by your god. They are asked to not believe their own ability to discern fact from fiction in order to be eligible for your cult.
  
  We must also disbelieve those who have spent their lives seeking truth in their scientific endeavors which have been backed up by other independent researchers who come to the same conclusions. Instead, we are expected to take the word of those with no background in the sciences nor desire to learn about them.
  
  I cannot make myself believe something just because I want to. Believe me, I've tried. God has to send someone to hell or there would be nothing to threaten his creations with. I suppose I am selected since I have a problem denying reality. I guess you could say it was just the way your god made me.
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  If you can't find your own reason to believe
  who am I to give you one.
  
  I found mine a long time ago. You can read all about it. I wrote a hub on that very event.
  
  My take on all the views is, to put it into a nutshell, goes something like this.
  All will be revealed at the point of, (or just after) death. If Christ told the truth, and we have an accurate record of "God's Word", there IS life after death.
  If it's all just a fairy tale/myth, as you and so many others keep promoting, then there is NOTHING. In which case, I have nothing to lose. It will just end. DONE!
  
  I suppose I should issue YOU a challenge to prove to me there is nothing after death. That's about the same as you asking me to prove God exists.
  
  Waiting with bated breath.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Exactly, you are no one to do so. That;s something we both can agree on.
  
  No thanks, if you use the same logic as in your posts then I have no reason to waste my time.
  
  Lots of "ifs" there, aka! I assume we will be in the same place after death as we were before we became alive. Unless you have proof to the contrary.
  
  But what if you are not only worshiping the wrong god but are also guilty of trying to convince others to do the same? In this scenario you have done harm to yourself and others and would have to pay the price for it. So your "nothing to lose" statement is not entirely correct. Unless you have some smidgen of proof there are no other gods but yours in existence, that is the chance you take with yours and others souls.
  
  Unlike you, I make no claims I have no proof for. I'm agnostic, not atheist, as I have certainly made clear here on several occasions. There may indeed be something after death, but so far no one has given any credible evidence which shows this to be the case. I no more expect you to prove your god exists than any other cult member with a different god than yours. Apparently, all gods like to be invisible to those they expect to worship them.
  
  And I am not responsible for the condition of your breath.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You give very longwinded answers.
  Use words like assume, proof, evidence, convince etal.
  Sadly, you are a person of faith just deny that reality.
  
  You don't at all sound like an agnostic, but a secular naturalist.
  This makes you ignorant and blind to the Spiritual, so you are in no position to make judgments about my faith, which god I serve, or what I base my beliefs on. You assume too much!
  
  I do see that you are a "snake worshipper", since you identify yourself so strongly with that imagery.
  That says a lot to me, but that's your choice (free, BTW).
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I'm sorry if I ask for something you cannot provide, and for those particularly troubling words most believers dread to hear. Happily, I have no need to convince others to believe in an invisible being just because I do.
  
  Perhaps you are right, but if you are any example of an enlightened soul, then I feel great about my own shortcomings concerning your idea of who or what to worship.
  
  No, you don't see I am a "snake worshiper" simply because I use one as an avatar. I find them no more worthy of worship than any other creature on our planet, even though I can prove snakes exist, unlike your own particular deity. Unless of course, you are a shadow worshiper as your avatar would suggest going by your own reasoning!
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  
  My avatar is my own shadow.
  I can prove that too. So what!
  
  How do you expect me to prove the Spiritual?
  
  As I said, you are a secular naturalist. You are obviously happy, so, enjoy!
  
  Are you trying to "un-convert" me? Your worldview does not appeal to me at all.
  
  Anyhow, you obviously like to have the last say, so go ahead. I'm off to bed now.
  That's much more pleasant and beneficial that "debating" with you.
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  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't the one making assumptions about you because of your avatar. I was simply using your own logic to judge you in the same manner. :lol;
  
  I am enjoying having a mind of my own and not basing my beliefs on old myths and stories.
  
  Just because something seems obvious to you doesn't mean it is the same for everyone, Aka. I do agree our "worldviews" are different and have no problem with it as long as you feel the same about that of others.
  
  There is no debate between us, simply disagreement about invisible gods.
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  61
  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "they" are the original writers of bibles. "they" are the ones that decided people need their idea of guidance so they wrote a book about it. "they" realised that the uneducated, the down-trodden and others would do as they were told if promises and threats of hell were a part of their lives.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  REALLY?
  
  Where did you get that from?
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  from using common sense and actually looking at what the bible says. how didn't you know that is my question.
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  65
  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Looks to me like your common sense let you down.
  
  Nothing in what you wrote looks like common sense to me.
  Just loose conjecture based on scant understanding of a very huge body of information. (IE the Bible)
  
  The truth is that the Bible is, for all intents and purposes true to all the know original documents. Just recently, the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed this integrity.
  
  Besides, the "they" you refer to are mere shadows of your imagination.
  
  There are actually many diverse writers, relating different information, much of which is totally unrelated to anything that could be classed as controlling the masses.
  
  But, having said all that, what does that all have to do with you and me today?
  Who are the "they" TODAY, that are controlling you and I?
  I refer you back to my OP.
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  78
  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The bible is about 90-95% accurate when compared to the earliest copies that we have. We have no original documents at all. At best we have copies, but more likely copies of copies of copies. The earliest fragment we have of the NT is 4 verses from the 18th chapter of the Gospel of John dating from about 125CE found in Egypt. And since the book of John was written around 90CE it is probable that it is copy of the original and not a copy of a copy. The oldest complete NT dates from around the mid 4th century. Of the over 5000 fragments and documents we have of the NT, none of it matches perfectly, there is variations between all of them, as well as between what we see today.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  That's pretty close in my book.
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  DoubleScorpionposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  I would agree. Considering the fact that the people who copied the biblical text, undertook that task with great reverence, I would say that the minor differences we see is simply a slip of the handwriting. There have been things added or removed over the years as well, but for the most part, I would have to say that the biblical text is reliable in context to what the original authors wrote.
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  nightwork4posted 12 years agoin reply to this
  "they" aren't controlling me because i'm not religious. that's the whole point. you are on here trying to make god a real thing which is a form of control. by making god a real thing, you've made it so any other believer is put in a position where what is taught in the bible must be followed and believed. heaven , hell, satan, etc. if that isn't control, then what is. they are the people that push religion and the bible which depending on the bible you read, it HAS been changed and edited many times.
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  aka-djposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  You ought to take note of DoubleScorpions post.
  
  As for you comment about God, that's an entirely subjective point of view!
  God is not trying to control you, neither am I. If nothing else, I submit to you, that you ARE controlled!
  If by nothing else, the laws/customs/traditions of your community.
  
  I admit there is a level of self control we all (should) have, but even this came from somewhere outside of self at some point. You chose those life principles and philosophies that you live by.
  So have I.
  I include God in that, but still, I'm not controlled like some robot, or a horse in a harness.
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  A Troubled Manposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, so the Dead Sea Scrolls confirmed the stories in the Bible were written a long time ago. Neat.
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iyakellyposted 12 years ago
hello man
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78
kirstenblogposted 12 years ago
One of my earliest memories is from when I was barely able to walk. I managed to get myself on the tire swing only to fall promptly off. I hit my head and it hurt. What I remember is this feeling of anger that my parents were not making the pain go away. I thought since they were the ones in control they could make my pain go away in a god like manner. I was so angry at them for not doing it and couldn't fathom that they were not all powerful. It was a tough lesson, and one of which I think very few people have actually learned. Control is an illusion, the idea that something is in ultimate control of existence is an illusion God, its not really real. The only sense in which control can be said to exist is in the terms of self control, the only person we stand a snow balls chance in hell of controlling. When taken that way control is a co-op thing, shared out equally among all, just some freely and eagerly give it up to others, and those greedy others lap it up like my cat with a milk dish.
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1. 51
  paarsurreyposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  The system which we see working in the nature shows that the Universe is in control of the Creator God and He is doing it with a purpose.
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ahorsebackposted 12 years ago
Guess what folks.......Its a free world ! Pick your poison !A better question would be is the entire issue of Religional control about something so simple as hub scores?
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1. 60
  Randy Godwinposted 12 years agoin reply to this
  And what would hub scores have to do with "Religional" (not a real word you know) control?
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ahorsebackposted 12 years ago
Control of peoples lives by religions ? We all choose our own 'control' ,we buy into it or we don't ! I know Randy, that its not a word !, I find it interesting in a way that non -believers constantly cry wolf {control} ! When discussing faith.
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
Is it ALL about CONTROL?

I don't think so; religion is to improve quality of life in moral and spiritual realms.
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SpanStarposted 12 years ago
Aka-Dj,

I like your beginning article regarding the issue of control in that I feel it was clearly presented.

You are control we are all controlled by something or someone/s. Do parents not try and control their children?

People acuse God of control but God isn't demanding that people serve him Oh Yes he would love for people to love him-As he has loved his creation but if people want to spit in the face of God they are free to do so however everything in live has a price.

When we see our children hanging with the wrong crow we advise them and give them good reasons not to do so but at that stage of their life we can't control them only hope they can see where they're going wrong before it's too late.
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paarsurreyposted 12 years ago
Religion is for self control and progress of humanity in ethical, moral and spiritual domains; it does not need to rule the people physically.
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