Insanity rules in the Muslim world?

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   wildernessposted 14 years ago

   Yesterday in Banja Luka, Bosnia the Serb Democcratic Party honored its founder, Radovan Kradzic on the 20th anniversary of the party's founding, stating that it is not ashamed of its past.
   
   Today marks the 15 anniversary of the Srebrenica massacre, where over 8000 civilians were hunted down and killed by forces under the same Radovan Kradzic, who is currently standing trial at the U.N. War crimes tribunal for genocide in Srebrenica.
   
   Not ashamed?  Honoring a murderous maniac the day before the anniversary of his genocidal actions?  Can anyone at all explain the thinking behind such actions?  Is it simply a matter of "kill the infidel and be happy" or is it just the same kind of behavior expected from any other uncivilized animal? 
   
   I once saw a documentary on a group of killer whales that found a gray whale with calf in the open sea.  Although it took hours to accomplish the killer whales eventually killed the helpless calf and then, eating only the lips, left the carcass to sink.  This seems much the same - kill for sport and fun, then rejoice in the same killing.

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      Strophiosposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      You are aware that this is not the muslim world you're speaking of, right? The Radovan Kradzic was a Christian, and what he did he did to Muslims. Furthermore, what he did he did on the back of years of Christian based nationalism. So, arguably the mentality is indeed "kill the infidel and be happy" (really, kill the traitor, those not of pure Serbian blood), but the infidel in question is the Muslim, not the Christian.

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   Mishaposted 14 years ago

   To answer the title question - not that it is in any way different in christian or jewish world...

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      MikeNVposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Agreed. Whomever doesn't agree with your own belief system must be insane.
      
      After all we are all always right.

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   kephriraposted 14 years ago

   I think you'll find that the Bosnian Serbs are Christians, not muslims, and the massacre was of muslims, not by muslism.

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      ilmdamailyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      Correct.

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   ilmdamailyposted 14 years ago

   Uh....
   
   ...you realise that Radovan Karadzic is/was a serbian nationalist?
   
   He, nor the serbian nationalist movement are in any way Islamic, or muslim, or sympathetic to either. In fact it is quite the opposite...
   
   As you state, he was responsible for the Srebrenica massacre, an act which was perpetrated against - nearly exclusively from what I understand - Muslim men & boys - killed wholesale for thier perceived "islamicity."
   
   That the serbian democrat party should decide to celebrate this is unsurprising. But I don't see the connection between them doing that and "insanity in the muslim world."
   
   Maybe i've misunderstood your point here...but it seems like you've got your wires crossed...?

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      wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

      I don't see that it matters which group kills which other group.  The point is that killing and death are a way of life in that general area of the world and often to be celebrated.  Saddam Hussein also committed genocide; I understand many folk wish he were back in spite of that.  The Taliban is know to murder children for going to school and continues to gain converts anyway. 
      
      I used the term "muslim world" as a geographical and political term to indicate a section of the world.  I evidently erred in giving the impression that only muslims engage in this type of activity - that was not my intention and is certainly not true.  Nevertheless it seems that a goodly portion of the inhabitants of that part of the world participate in the concept that murder and genocide are OK and to be expected and celebrated.

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         ilmdamailyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Gotchya;-)
         
         Just came accross as a little disingenuous with the "islamic world" reference. Murder, genocide and violence aren't really Islamic issues: they're human issues. Everyone dies the same.
         
         I would disagree intensely that "killing and death are a way of life in that general area of the world and often to be celebrated." And if you've never visited that part of the world, i'm not sure you'd be in a position to responsibly make that assertion. The disintegration of Yugoslavia was as much about conflicting politics as it was about cultural and religious identities - none of which discretely existed independently of each other.
         
         To infer that a people or region is "inherenlty violent" is to ignore the circumstances they live in - and the factors that have contributed to them. People are people (to quote depeche mode:-). It's the circumstances that people are exposed to - in combination with so much else - that dictates their capacity to respond. 
         
         I'd be careful using terms like the "islamic world." Or the christian world, or the jewish world, or the hindu world. Or any (insert mass-identifier here) world. Terms like these serve to obfuscate the ridiculous amount of cultural, political, econonmic and other types of diversity that exist within these ideological blocks. Using them is generally unconstructive as they tend only to reinforce our own perceptions, rather than broaden our horizons or enhance our ability to learn about the world around us - if that is in fact what we wish to do.
         
         Related to this, I saw an extremely interesting video recently that charted the mathematical patterns observable in conflicts around the world. When you remove the political rhetoric, geographical, cultural and religious influences, there is an extremely interesting mathematical pattern that occurs in the scale and type of attacks - which speaks to the common humanity we all share, both in its capacity for compassion and cruelty.
         
         I highly reccommend it to anyone who enjoys having their views challenged. At 7 minutes long its the most interesting thing you'll see today:
         
         Sean Gourley on the Mathematics of War:
         http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emn28FrJ6CI

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            wildernessposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            It is true that I have never visited that part of the world and that all I have for information is the media and the net, neither of which I put much faith in.  Nevertheless, I tend to stand by my statement "killing and death are a way of life in that general area....".  All is relative, of course, and compared to our own way of life in the west, the statement seems reasonable.  While the average man in the street would probably not kill wantonly, they accept that others do and let it pass.  A murder of school children for going to school would raise an outcry country wide here with every citizen and policeman on the search for the perpetrators.  Any caught would be punished severely.  Over there it seems just a fact of life and the people, although caring about their own dead children, accept that it is done and make no move, political or otherwise, to change it or prevent future actions.  Still others are happy to see it as it is the harbinger of a return to a way of life they want.
            
            Another example might be the condemnation of an adultress to be stoned to death.  I highly doubt that you could find a group of people in the US to carry out the sentence, but such a sentence is not all that uncommon in some parts of the world.  A very wide chasm separates our way of life and ethical structure from theirs and it is not one I understand.
            
            You're right about the video - a very interesting piece of work.  I'm not sure about it's value, but the concept is still in its infancy and further work and study could well develop into a deeper understanding of ourselves and of war in general.  I doubt that anyone anywhere has thought to 'mathicize" war in quite that manner and it was illuminating to me.  Graphs always mean more to me than charts of data.

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               Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               You are very wrong in all but one particular, and that is your opening admission, that you have never been to that part of the world. That fact shines like a beacon.
               I have lived in Islamic countries for the last eight years and I don't recognise the foul characterisation of this region that you insist on promoting, albeit from an admitted position of total ignorance. And by the way, I have no axe to grind, being completely irreligious myself.

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                  Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Never lived among a large group of Muslims, but as far as the serb thing goes, ultimately the fault of the Bosnian mess rests with the west, for it was the armistice which was ratified by the Allied nations at the end of WW1 which forced ethnic groups in eastern Europe to live amongst each other, and gave us the artificial nations such Yugoslavia and Czhechislovakia, which ultimatey broke up as the Soviet Empire imploded.

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                     Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                     Isn't it true that all people everywhere are expected to bow to Allah or die?

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                        Mark Knowlesposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Same wot the Kristian God sez innit?

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                           Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Actually, I think conventional Christianity has a more sinister plot than that. They beleive that they don't have to kill those who don't convert. God's gonna do that. He's their "Enforcer" so till then, they just bore us to death and clutter up our porches with meaningles tracts full of inane platitudes. God's trickier than that, and as for time for planning, he's had the most.

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                        Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                        Don't be silly. As a matter of fact proselytising is illegal in many Muslim countries. I could wish America was half as civilised in that respect.

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                           Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                           Isn't that why the supporters of Sharia law are actively attempting the overthrow of certain middle eastern regimes and infiltrating western societies in Europe AND the U.S.?

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                              Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                              Yes. Extremists everywhere try to infiltrate and usurp the moderate status quo. CIA tactics. Same difference. Except some people are disposed to think these corrupt minorities are the norm. Except for their own, of course.

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               myownworldposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               It amazes me to read such sweeping statements about a region you've never visited nor people you've never personally had a chance to observe. At the same time, you say you don't have faith in everything you read in the media, and yet your statements seem to be based entirely on what you've heard in the news!
               
               Well, I've had a chance to not only visit but actually live in many muslim countries, and believe me, what you hear in the media is just the most distorted view of the actual reality or the way people live in these countries. In fact, unlike what you claim, the average muslim is very moderate, killing is hardly the 'norm' or way of life, only a few fanatics (higly publicized in western media) celebrate these acts of terrorism, and no one I've EVER known or seen in all the years I lived there 'accepted' killing of others!
               
               As I always say, if you cannot visit then at least, try watching the local news channels from these countries and you'll be surprised to see how many local protests, debates and condemnation against any kind of injustice and killing goes on... YET they never get reported in the western media. After all, it's easy to fear people you don't know... but trust me, they aren't such barbarians as some here like to believe....

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                  Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  myownworld - this guy doesn't want to know. He wants to believe his own fantasy. His formula is "I've never been, I don't know, but I still believe they are inferior". It's extreme xenophobia. Sad.

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                  Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

                  Didn't say that, so maybe you aren't referring to me. Known muslims since 72-3. Some I liked, some I didn't. Still wearing the same head too. I have more in common w/ SOME of their beleifs. But don't think I'm conventionally where I might suggest I am. I moves arounds abits

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         Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         I think you are backtracking helplessly. Have you checked the size of 'that part of the World' in which you seem to include Iraq, former Yugoslavia and Afghanistan/Pakistan? I think you might have even been indulging in a little xenophobic sport.

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         kerrygposted 14 years agoin reply to this

         Just for the record, it is okay to say "Oops, I made a mistake." That takes guts, and nobody will think the less of you.
         
         This kind of backtracking just comes off as victim-blaming, though. The Muslim world is "insane," so therefore Muslims are responsible for their own slaughter at Srebrenica?
         
         I think you need to check your privilege. Serbia is in Europe, which is not generally considered to be part of the Muslim world. Europe does indeed have a long history of ethnic and religious violence, but blaming Muslims for that is disingenuous at best, considering that they make up the majority of the population in only two modern European countries (Albania and Kosovo) and for most of history have been a substantial minority in only a few others. Most European religious and ethnic conflict has been Christian-on-Christian.
         
         Insanity rules in the world, period. Blaming one particular group for it only demonstrates your own prejudice.

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            Paragliderposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Good post.

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               myownworldposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               completely agree...

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               ilmdamailyposted 14 years agoin reply to this

               Amen to that.

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            Dave Barnettposted 14 years agoin reply to this

            Yup! I think everyone is around the bend, bonkers, koo-koo, flipped off the tip, and one can short of a sixpack. Everything is going according to plan. FUBAR

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   Mishaposted 14 years ago

   Hear, hear

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