I would say your kidding right.
But they are not.
"What could be more insulting and humiliating than a monster mosque in the shadow of the World Trade Center buildings that were brought down by an Islamic jihad attack? Any decent, American, Muslim or otherwise, wouldn’t dream of such an insult. It’s a stab in eye of America…it is time for Americans to stand up against the evil of Islamic jihad terrorism and Islamic supremacism. The only Muslim center that should be built in the shadow of the World Trade Center is one that is devoted to expunging the Koran and all Islamic teachings of the violent jihad that they prescribe, as well as all hateful texts and incitement to violence."
http://www.newsrealblog.com/2010/05/17/ … heights-2/
I must say I agree.
http:// www.newsrealblog.com/2010/05/17/why-not … heights-2/
A Mosque does not belong thier.
Some might not consider it to be in good taste, but as long as they legally bought the land and legally build the mosque on it there is no real reason to stop them.
Hi friend TMMason
Aren't you a hate-monger?
I agree a mosque doesn't belong there.
But then, I don't think a mosque belongs in America, period; and ever-more-increasingly apparently political correctness gets chosen over the fact of America's Christian basis. Look at the fact that the new Miss USA claims to be a Muslim from what I gather....but that's another parallel story....
I agree with you 100%
And note the peaceful Muslims in the pics and vids.
And if she is a muslim... they are going to stone her to death for her participation. Shari'a is very clear on the punishment for a woman, whom they would consider, to have no morals.
To put it nicely.
Yep. Okay I pulled up an article that says she said her family celebrates both Islam and Christianity and that she attended a Catholic school. That's funny, 'cause I just this morning saw the tv News that called her a Muslim Arab-American. I have a problem with the term "Arab-American" anyway 'cause it's contradictory....
Anyway, no matter what, I agree with you she can't be a good representation of Muslims since...ahem!....her face and much more was unveiled.
There must be a new kinda modern "Muslim" fad goin' on these days, since many claim the religion but not always the laws of it..
But as far as the mosques, I think, considering 911 especially, that they should ALL be outlawed, torn down, never re-built. America has enough issues just between the actual Christian religions; we don't need Islam thrown in there in the mix.
At the risk of pissin everyone else off.
Maybe you don't want people in your neighborhood that make less money than you do, and you prefer they all be white people?
Comments you make such as above, lead people believe you are narrow minded. I suppose if that's what you want, though, you are quite successful.
We could, of course, encourage all Muslims to live in certain geographic areas or "camps" where they could live freely and in peace, yet not contaminate the outside Christian community.
If that solution is not cost effective, we could establish separate but equal school systems so at to protect youth from diverse religious backgrounds from mingling together.
In addition, I am sure that most Muslims would feel more at home in countries that are more Islamic in nature, and we could encourage migration though special taxation laws and other regulatory measures.
The options are limitless, and I am sure if we look hard enough, we can find historic precedents.
Or, we could just send them to "internment camps" like we did the Japanese in WW2.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_A … internment
It's the "American Way," according to 1940's thinking. And so was the McCarthy Era as well! Howdy Doody! Yeah! Let's go back to that!!
NOT. Apparently the Israelites wandered in the wilderness 40 years to get rid of all the dead wood/old regimented thinkers in the group. I guess we as a nation need to keep wandering....
TMASON! if the new miss USA is a muslim, y u choose a muslim girl, wasn't there any deficiency of beauty in USA?
It never ceases to amaze me that in a country with a very strong basis of religious freedom that so many Christians would eliminate other religions based on our "Christian basis" or the "Christianity of our forefathers" or some other trumped up nonsense. Meanwhile the wonderful "Christians" of our country sexually abuse our children, refuse them medical care and kidnap them from other countries.
I find it amusing the left wing media does not show any of these rallys.
Only them evil tea party rallys where everyone is trying to lynch everyone else. And have you seen the hatred on the signs and language thery scream out.
Oh yeah.... good thing we have an eye on those crazy racists Americans and not these muslims.
you know, in many parts of the Christian world, parading around in a bikini is also looked down upon..
and yet when Betty Sue Bigboobies from Texas or Mary Ann Happybush from Carolina thanks God for helping her win a pageant, nothing is said and no one questions her faith or her devotion to it
If it makes you feel any better, I personally don't think the bikini part of the pageant is appropriate at all, period.
But at the very least they're not parading around in thongs and see-through bras.
The main issue is a political/patriotic issue.
Anyone who's an American should tout themselves (and be touted as, and BE) just an American. Not an Arab. Not any other nationality.
OR make a sex tape for your boyfriend...but golly gee, she was ONLY 17!!!
ahem....I wasn't making sex tapes at 17, and I don't even claim to be pious.
I find it interesting that the Original American Indians (or whatever they're called) were forced to make room for European Christians and others, and now the 'Americans' are upset that a new, far less powerful wave of terrorists are infiltrating the USA.
What about it do you find so interesting, and what do you mean by "new"?
I think the different perspectives concerning what's right and wrong and the way it changes based on who the 'victims' are is interesting. How many white Americans are in the USA today that would not be there at all but for the Colonization of the place and the wiping out of the Indians? Let's say 150 million (I really don't know, it's just a guess). I find it interesting that all these people can get annoyed about Muslims and any other immigrants practicing their own cultures, without feeling the slightest bit of guilt due to their ancestors doing the same thing, but doing it with much more violence.
When I say new, it is relative to the first wave of terrorists that arrived in America, the very white terrorists.
I think saying Americans don't feel guilt about the way native Americans were treated is a misconception...that being said, this happened in a less enlightened time.
Should any country be chastized for what its ancestors did, most countries fall into this catagory. The world has asked for America to help in the fight against aggression several times over the years. They neglect to bring up past wrongs while asking.
Why don't they just put a statue with the First Amendment blurb about freedom of religion, and add a part underneath in fine print indicating it is only applicable to Christians?
luvpassion, i personally don't hold modern day Americans responsible for what their ancestors did but I also think they should be more tolerant if this is indeed a more enlightened time.
I think countries should be held responsible for the atrocities that their ancestors carried out. Otherwise it encourages this type of behaviour today, knowing that down the line, we won't be held accountable. That said, I really wouldn't know where to start in terms of prosecuting or sentencing because the tension between colonists and indigenous will last as long as we do.
Well you'll probrably want to start at Spain.... they seem like a good point to me.
Throw in Portugal and Arabia for thier massive role in the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Of which you can thank the Anglos for stopping. Gee we sure have stopped alot of wrongs. Oh but that is a conversation for another thread.
Where was I...
Anyways, that should be enough for now.
Oh? And the bill for US Stopping all those atrocities should be mailed where?
I would never call for any sort of accountability other than words and gestures. Each case is uniquely different, some are easier to amend than others. Is there any sort of monument or plaque in America admitting the wrongs that were done to the natives, if there is then I guess that is quite acceptable.
However I do wonder about the perspective you are coming from, Mason. To claim that white Americans have done more good for the world than bad is very debatable indeed. Perhaps all those bills that you receive for being boy scouts will be air mailed back somewhere else to make up for interferences you have made for financial incentives.
Someone has to speak up for this country.
You have to admit more than enough people are willing to preach the ills of this country. But very few want to remember the good.
I have no problem admitting alll the wrongs we as country have done and have on many an occassion. But that is no reason to throw ourselve on our sword.
We have indeed done alot wrong... as all of us individually probrably have.... but you don't ruin your life with the guilt of it. You recognize it, and change your behaviour accordingly and move on. Try to never repeat those mistakes, not wallow and destroy yourself in guilt and shame.
I am not a fan of changing the entire structure of our Govt.. The basis of what made this country great and unique in order to atone for white guilt or our past wrongs.
If that is so bad to you.
Then thats life, man.
I won't discuss the mistakes and "bad" that America has done as you seem to have a very good handle on it, but consider:
Without America, Europe would probably still be under the iron heel of Hitler and the Nazis.
The same could be true of the far east and Japanese imperialism.
There would be no South Korea
Americans are the most generous people on earth, bar none.
America is the best example of freedom the world has ever seen, and it is constantly promoted.
America constantly fights human rights violations.
America has produced huge gains in science, including medicine.
I could go on and on. Yes, we've made mistakes and are less than perfect, and being the last super power often magnifies those mistakes. That means we have a ways (sometimes a LONG ways) to go - it does not mean that we are a nation of evil as so many liberal left-wingers would try to teach.
You Say- "Without America, Europe would probably still be under the iron heel of Hitler and the Nazis"
I say- Without Europe there wouldn't even be a USA in the first place.
I hear that opinion a lot coming from America that you saved Europe, but really you were saving yourselves. Of course all Europeans appreciate how you helped us and no doubt we needed your help, but if you had not acted when you did, and had Hitler gained control of the whole of Europe, then he would certainly have targeted you guys, and he would have been in a much more powerful position to do so.
Honestly I think you are blinded by fortune. All the ingredients that were in America always ensured that it would be a wealthy nation for whoever settled there. Fair enough, those resources have been exploited brilliantly. But talking about your gains in science and medicine when those fields are obviously and directly a result of a country's wealth is a bit pointless. I mean if you give a million monkeys all the resources you have then they'll come up with a cure for something.
Of course America is not evil. I would never suggest that. America has many intelligent people. I just wish you guys would put them in charge.
You forgot to mention that if Pearl Harbour hadn't been bombed, America wouldn't have entered the war. Some allies!
You make a valid point. For that matter everyone that has posted on this thread has make a valid point.
The way I see it ...
We are damnned if we do and damnned if we don't'
so MAN the torpedos.. No that aint right,
Good Christians will sit in their house till it burns down
That's what the bad guys are counting on.
In the old days the good guys hired a bad guys to be their sherrif.
to debate building a Mosk next to ground zerro, is kinda like debating what pornography is; I caint define what it is but I know it when I see it.
And this just aint right. Mosque at ground zero NAaaa
"I hear that opinion a lot coming from America that you saved Europe"
You also hear a lot that 1 + 1 = 2
I am dying here... I can't breathe....
Man Sab... you r too funny bro.
You know it is the simple things they find so confusing.
Sab Oh, TMMason - I'm not surprised by your arrogance or condescending nature. There are many Americans who are wonderful, humble people that would never laugh at a different perspective with so much disdain. America has never entered a war just to save someone else, don't be so naive. The American government is not that stupid. No country on earth would enter a war unless they were at risk themselves or they had something to gain.
If America is as free and wonderful as you would proclaim, then why can't people build a Mosque in NY. Why can't Americans be the bigger man. Why must you reciprocate another culture's hate for you. Why can't you bite your bottom lip and prove that your culture is better than their's by not stooping to their level of hatred.
Feel free to laugh man. It is, "good for the soul", I have been told. Please feel free.
And I have not stated any such thing as, America entered a war without it's own self interest at heart.
Man you just translate my words to your own so well.
Our self-interest and advancement, should be the main focus of our people and Govt.
Not making us a 2nd world country to be fair to the rest of the world.
Thats where we differ.
"America has never entered a war just to save someone else"
I sure hope not, but we sure have had that effect a few times nonetheless.
"If America is as free and wonderful as you would proclaim, then why can't people build a Mosque in NY. "
There are almost 100 mosques in New York City alone.
Hello? Almost 100 mosques in New York City already. Hello? Are we free and wonderful now? Hello?
I hear you, then why the problem with this one. Would you like to issue a restraining order that makes sure Muslims should remain a certain distance from where it all went down?
"I hear you, then why the problem with this one. "
Are you honestly having trouble figuring this one out?
Sab Oh, why did you quote half my sentence to make me look stupid? Wait, I know, it's because the completed sentence makes perfect sense and you weren't quite witty enough to argue that, and you weren't quite humble enough to just AGREE.
"Sab Oh, why did you quote my sentence to make me look stupid?"
Hey now, don't try to give me credit for your own hard work.
America you have a wonderful knack for annoying the rest of the world, and then when you get stung, it's never your own fault. Keep prodding.
We also seem to have a knack for bailing out European nations when they $%*& things up. Maybe we'll learn to 'mind our own business' someday...
Indeed, where WOULD you start? I doubt there is a person alive today that does not have both "conqueror" and "conquered" in their geneology. Certainly the modern American Indian tribes are not the ones that came across the bering strait so long ago........
Man is a viscious, fighting animal that takes what he can. Only recently has civilization even begun to put the slightest dent in that.
Do not under-estimate the power of the Islamic Jihad. That is a dangerous mistake man.
What I find interesting is that so many White American children are so gung ho to degrade thier own ancestry and fore-bearers.
The nihilism of the White Anglo Saxon amazes me.
White guilt has done it's job
Even the founders new of the threat of Islam...
After his presidency, but before his election to Congress in 1830, John Quincy penned several essays dealing with one of the many Russo-Turkish Wars. In these essays, we see a cogent, informed portrait of the threat that Islam has posed throughout world history:
In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar, the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust, by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE.
Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. That war is yet flagrant; nor can it cease but by the extinction of that imposture, which has been permitted by Providence to prolong the degeneracy of man. While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and good will towards men. The hand of Ishmael will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him. It is, indeed, amongst the mysterious dealings of God, that this delusion should have been suffered for so many ages, and during so many generations of human kind, to prevail over the doctrines of the meek and peaceful and benevolent Jesus (Blunt, 1830, 29:269, capitals in orig.).
or you can look here...
http://marychristinalove.wordpress.com/ … m-in-1830/
it is a fact. We have known about the threat of Islam for centuries.... and the leant leftist liberals are dumbfounded. As if we have never heard of this poison.
I don't care if your Muslim, chinese ,german, or american born-If you are in America it had best be legally-The president can joke about the illegal immigrationb problem but if you can't secure ALL your borders you are toast-As for the arizona law-it makes sense. Getting bavck to the Mosque at "ground zero" that is ridiculous why don't we build a Japanesse temple at PearlHarbor or a Nazi museum or headquarters at ?Dakow or Auschwitcz- (sp?). Granted if it is legally done its one thing in good taste it is not
While building a mosque at 'ground zero' might be regarded as insensitive, isn't it a bit extreme to talk about ripping down all the mosques you have in America?
After all, a lot of the white Europeans who colonised America were escaping from religious persecution in their homelands, so why are you talking about perpetuating that kind of intolerance?
Isn't the wholes essence of the USA supposedly built on religious tolerance and freedom for all?
Symbolism is what you make of it. Is it possible that the true civilized Muslims (not be mistaken for the radical fringe of murderers out there) intend it to mean something else than an insult?
Or are all Muslims, believing in the same God as the Christians do, simply murderers? Not capable of erecting a church to worship God near the site of a horrific crime created by false followers?
Did not our ancestors build churches near the site of the decimation of local indian tribes to worship in (granted that it was not in sorrow, but probably in triumph)?
Building new churches/temples on top of those of earlier/conquered religions is very common. A lot of Ancient Egyptian temples had early churches built in them/on them, just as in the UK the Romans built their temples over ancient British religious sites, and when Christianity arrived churches were built on top of the Roman temples. It seems to be once a religious site, always a religious site
I think this question should be left up to the majority of the people who live there...my opinion.
You do know that innocent Muslims were amongst those killed on 9/11 don't you?
I have to laugh at people who whine and moan about them being denied their freedom of religion but then don't want anyone else to have freedom of religion. Thank goodness the majority of American's don't agree with you.
Your words frequently point to the simple truth that you have no conception of what it means to be American and your exposure to the world and world history is limited to the point of disgrace.
You should get outside more often and open your mouth (or move your fingers) far less.
You represent the other side of the coin of the issue your decrying, just another who yells about their Christian virtue and offer judgment on all yet does nothing to support fundamental concepts like forgiveness, mercy and Joy.
Please stop using the words "American" and "christian" - you are neither ...you just happen to live within the borders of this nation and happen to own a Bible
Christ didn't say sit back and wait for your enemies to kill you.
And you don't get to tell anyone whether or not thier American. hahaha what a laugh. I have my I.D. on me and I can prove my citizenship.
People like you her just don't get it.
America will not lie down and be kiiled, just becuase some of you whackos on the leant left are socailists and America haters.
Just because you want America to allow those who openly hate us to celebrate it in the streets as they, and you tell us screw ourselves.
Doesn't mean any of us are going to allow it.
There is only so long you can piss on us and smile. While telling us we deserve it. So don't be surprised when more laws like Arizona's get passed everywhere.
People are getting fed up with all the junk on all the sides. Where done being told what we're going to do for who. And that they will do as they please.
Islam building this Mosque on that ground is akin to building a shrine to Hitler in Israel.
You and she are absurd to even think it is okay.
This is the most bigoted, ugliest forum thread I have ever read.
It is disgraceful and shameful, and incredibly misinformed.
You are really prejudiced against Miss USA? Are you kidding me?
Hey, c'mon over & stay at my place for awhile. I live 10 miles from Dearborn.
You would either learn a little tolerance, or your heads would explode.
Either way, it's a happy ending.
You assume much about my leanings as I responded in no way to the issue of where a mosque is built, lumping the actions of a few upon many, what is religious freedom, immigration policy etc.
But have already proven to be incapable of debate and conversation.
So I wont bother...
I agree with you and I think it is sad for the people of NYC where so many people live that lost loved ones and friends in 9/11, not to mention those who are now sick from the clean up. I don't know why Bloomberg and the people of NYC are letting this happen.
Yeah, like how some arab muslim guys from a cave in Afghanistan managed to order NORAD to stand down on the morning of 9/11.
OOOO-weeee, they must have some high-tech equipment beyond belief to infiltrate the biggest, best, most expensive and modern military in the world.
And who did they say they were? I mean, who were they impersonating when they said "Stand Down"? How in hell did they hack the phone-system of the North American Aerospace Defense Command? Mighty good technology in those caves I guess.
And you know, for being so smart as to pull that off, mighty stupid of them to leave the blue-print for the whole operation in a rental car at Logan airport.
Does not compute.
Why worry about the Mosque being built there. I mean we know it wasn't Islam that knocked those towers down.
it was the Athiests.
Here is what we teach in our schools about it...
To avoid being politically incorrect, public schools prefer to use Muslims experts or clerics rather than public school teachers to teach the topic of Islam. Our educational hierarchy refuses to see that many devout Muslim experts have a political agenda and are themselves indoctrinated and thus always on the defensive or offensive. I can only imagine what the poor American kids are subjected to. I was on the receiving end of such indoctrination when I was a young Muslim girl.
This is what the mother wrote to me:
“Hello Mrs. Darwish:
I need your help addressing a serious problem I’m currently trying to handle. Recently, my child came home from school and told me about a presentation his Global Studies 9 class had that was given by a man by the name of Hassan Shibly. My child was shocked and visibly shaken at home and told me about the things this man said to the class. The pretext for the presentation was for Mr. Shibly to talk to the class about Islam and dispel some of the ‘misunderstandings’ and ‘Islamophobia.’ Here are some of the things he said to these boys and girls:
‘ The September 11th attacks occurred because of America’s blind support of Israel and the men who carried out the attack were not Muslims, but atheists.’
‘Terrorism is an example of people reacting with their hearts and not their minds…if someone insulted your mother, wouldn’t you retaliate against them? Allah is more important than anything to a Muslim, and if you insult Allah, a Muslim can do anything to defend his belief.’
‘The news media lie…when a Muslim does something, they’re labeled as a Muslim while people of other religions who commit crimes are never identified by their religion.’”
She added that Hassan Shibly’s father, Othman, also came to speak at the school but to a different class. She expressed her outrage that these men were invited into a school to indoctrinate underage, impressionable minds with hate a filled ideology and a hidden agenda. She stated that she alerted the principal to a few links that show Shibly’s affiliations and added that she doesn’t think the principal is convinced. She concluded by saying that so far a decision has not been made whether to bring the Shilbys back to teach or not.
Man I love America. The SHIT we call education today. i say eject the NEA from our schools.
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/02/18/isla … education/
In my view it is wrong to correlate Muslim religion with terrorism. The muslim religion is followed probably more avidly by more people around the world as is christianity. What happened on 9/11 has nothing to do with the faith, Just as the Oklahoma bombings had nothing to do with being American
I agree totally Barry, if America is the wonderful free nation it is self-proclaimed to be, and if Christianity is all that it is supposed to be, then any hatred from other parts of the world should not be reciprocated by this 'free minded society'. Now is the time to ignore race and religion disputes and prove that the American way of life is indeed better than their enemy's way.
What ever gave you the idea that the US was a doormat or that being one was one of our values?
I'm mainly speaking about American Christians here, I believe there are a few. What would Jesus do and all that? Not that I follow the man or anything.
There are less than half the muslims in the world then Christians.
And a good 85% of them follow mainstream Islam,. Which requires the suppporting of Jihad by the communitty, by Quranic injuntion.
So no. Not an bad corralation.... a statistical fact.
Not trying to really dispute anything but clarify numbers. Wikipedia (though not the most reliable authority) state there are about 1.3 to 1.8 billion muslims in the world, and about 2.1 billion Christians. Those numbers seem a little closer than half. But as you pointed out it's important to note that the extremists are a very small margin of the muslim population, just as the extremists who are numbered among Christians.
We ought to put them in an interment camp together and let them sort their differences out.
"What happened on 9/11 has nothing to do with the faith"
That is as inaccurate as claiming that all Muslims are terrorists.
If a "mosque" were built, that welcomed people of all races and religions as a sign of peace and memoriam of 9/11, then I would say we are moving in a positive direction. If it's anything else, then of course it's a slap in the face.
However, I have a feeling that there will be a lot of backlash about this and it's not likely to happen.
Additionally, if it is built, do you really think that it could last? What's the Jewish population in NYC?
I don't see a need to get upset over anything in this case.
True. They might as well build it in the shape of a giant bullseye.
When was the last suicide attack by a Jew in New York?
I must've missed it.
The New york police would guard that thing with thier lives.... cause Islam would cry racism if something happened to it.
That is another reason it should not be built there. i will inflame alot of passion on alot of sides.
Bad thing for New York.
"Additionally, if it is built, do you really think that it could last? What's the Jewish population in NYC?"
Has the Jewish population of New York demonstrated a propensity to violent terrorism against Muslim houses of worship?
They don't have to be violent to prevent it from being built, or even to have it taken down. The Jewish population of NYC are powerhouses throughout the world. I was not implying violence, or if you got that impression, I didn't mean for you to get that.
"They don't have to be violent to prevent it from being built, or even to have it taken down. The Jewish population of NYC are powerhouses throughout the world. "
Then why haven't they exercised this great power against the 90 + mosques that already exist in New York City?
The more I think about it, the more I think that this obsession over ground-zero as being a place of mourning is unhealthy, especially for those not directly affected. It's just a place where some bad stuff happened, build over it, put up a plaque and get on with it.
Spoken like a man who truly understands the value of life sacrficed for our country's name.
"The more I think about it, the more I think that this obsession over ground-zero as being a place of mourning is unhealthy, especially for those not directly affected. It's just a place where some bad stuff happened, build over it, put up a plaque and get on with it."
Are you a US citizen?
As a Christian, I would sure hate to be lumped in with others who also claimed to be followers of my religion...
I can find more Muslims that that in one American City, on one American city block in an Islamic communitty. Who espouse more hatred toward the West and America in one sentence than either of them two.
I do not condone what they did....
But to imply that you get the same mathamatical statistics for fanatical Christian terrorists, as to Muslim Terrorists, shows a complete lack of grasp upon the value of numbers themselves.
I'm implying that it is important to judge individuals by their character and actions.. not to make stereotypical assessments lumping in 1 billion people together.
"I can find more Muslims that that in one American City, on one American city block in an Islamic communitty. Who espouse more hatred toward the West and America in one sentence than either of them two."
Do they have a reason? Or is it just cause they "hate our freedom"?
And why did Koresh and McVeigh do what they did?
same reason, right?
I lumped 85% of them together.
The other 15% are the radical Islamists.
They are ones who preach that Islam is a, "religion of love and peace". They are the silent minority.
And they stay silent because they will be killed for heresy if they dare to interpret the Qu'ran in such a blatently false understanding.
minority [maɪˈnɒrɪtɪ mɪ-]
n pl -ties
1. the smaller in number of two parts, factions, or groups
2. (Sociology) a group that is different racially, politically, etc., from a larger group of which it is a part
a. the state of being a minor
b. the period during which a person is below legal age Compare majority
4. (modifier) relating to or being a minority a minority interest a minority opinion [from Medieval Latin minōritās, from Latin minor]
Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
"America you have a wonderful knack for annoying the rest of the world, and then when you get stung, it's never your own fault. Keep prodding."
Whoaaaaa we're scared now.
Anyone who put together plans for a mosque in that area must have known what the sysmbolism would be. Ans if they knew it ansd went ahead, then they must have intended it have have that symbolism (ie triumphalism, victory of Islam over American freedoms etc) which I would say makes it a hostile gesture.
I see a different kind of message..
"We are the greatest power in the world because we believe in freedom and justice. We live these values, even in spite of the fact that there are those who want to kill the most innocent among us.
Terrorists will not destroy us, what we believe in, or our way of life. They will not make us reactionary out of fear, hate or anger. Their attacks will not make us deny the very values that have made us great. They will not turn us into them.
On September 11th, they killed hundreds of people who followed their own religion. In the shadow of that tragedy. we built a mosque as a sign of our continued and everlasting belief in freedom each indivudal has to believe and think for themselves, and in direct mocking scorn of their failed attempt to link a billion Muslims to their evil acts."
If you beleive in freedom does that mean you have to believe in the freedom of people to oppress others and take away their freedom? That is the logical conclusion of your argument.
how is that the logical conclusion of my argument?
These murderers WANT you to link all Muslims with their cause.
They want you to hate and mistrust a billion people. They want Muslims to feel it is them against us.
If we do that, then their attack on 9 11 served its purpose.
It is the logical conclusion of your argument because you are saying that to stand up against an ideology which opposes and attacks liberal western freedoms is a betrayal of those same freedoms.
My original point was about people wanting to build a mosque in that area - there are plenty of other places - and your alternative sybmolism doesn't refer to this, it only refers to the symbolism of people allowing it to happen, conveniently turning a blind eye to the intentions of the people who want to build the mosque there, to the point I was making that it is a hostile gesture to want to build a mosque in that specific location. Your logic is to ignore this hostility and the actions derived from it by people who want to destroy freedom, because to stand up to it would destroy freedom, which if true would mean that freedom is doomed whatever anyone does.
I am not saying we shouldn't stand up against their ideology, I am saying that the best way to stand up is sticking to, and expressing, the values that have made America great... one of them being freedom of people to believe (or not believe)in any God they want to.
Why do you assume that the intentions of the people who want to build a mosque there are hostile, or that their goals are similar to these murderers? I reject any terrorist efforts to hijack an entire religion and its followers into their ideology.
I don't ignore the actions of those who want to destroy freedom, I choose to make a statement to say their efforts to do so by polarizing Americans, are doomed to failure.
- "I am not saying we shouldn't stand up against their ideology, I am saying that the best way to stand up is sticking to, and expressing, the values that have made America great... one of them being freedom of people to believe (or not believe)in any God they want to"
- "If you beleive in freedom does that mean you have to believe in the freedom of people to oppress others and take away their freedom? That is the logical conclusion of your argument."
-"Why do you assume that the intentions of the people who want to build a mosque there are hostile, or that their goals are similar to these murderers? I reject any terrorist efforts to hijack an entire religion and its followers into their ideology."
- "Anyone who put together plans for a mosque in that area must have known what the sysmbolism would be. Ans if they knew it ansd went ahead, then they must have intended it have have that symbolism (ie triumphalism, victory of Islam over American freedoms etc) which I would say makes it a hostile gesture."
-"I don't ignore the actions of those who want to destroy freedom, I choose to make a statement to say their efforts to do so by polarizing Americans, are doomed to failure."
I don't see why you keep insisted that the purpose of Islamic terrorists is to make us hate muslims. Their purpose is to attack and destroy western culture, and to stricly impose Islam on people. They don't want you to hate muslims, they want to force you to be a muslim.
The best way for them to destroy Western cutlure and impose their way of life is to get followers on their side. The best way to do that is cause tensions between the non-Muslims and those Muslims who would otherwise be disgusted by their acts of violence.
That aside, if they "want to force me to be a muslim", what they really want is for eveyone to be the type of militant hate-filled jihadists that they are, not the type of rational and peaceful Muslims who are your neighbours and mine (and whom the would kill as readily as you and I).
I reject their hostile mentality, and the symbolism I was referring to regarding the mosque would be just that.. a symbolic rejection of their way of looking at the world
I could say that the point I'm trying to make is that symbolically rejecting something by refusing to stand up to it is a statement with suicidal tendencies, and I could say more too, most of which I've already said, but then you'd repeat the stuff you've already said to answer that the first time, and I think that we could be going round in cirlces like this for hours. So I'll just say it's been nice arguing with you again Greek One, and I'm off to watch a film.
All of that stuff is already true, as evidenced by the nearly 100 mosques in NYC that were there before 9/11 and are still there today. Hell, a Muslim is more free and secure to pursue his faith in NYC than in any 'Muslim' nation on earth.
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