Do you agree with this take on the president?

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habeeposted 13 years ago
Fromm CNN and Maureen Dowd:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/08/17/ … tml?hpt=C2
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  Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree that he's doing damage in his own party; but I can't say I think he essentially shouldn't be able to freely speak (as opposed to keeping things short, which was the reference to Bush).
  
  In fairness to him (and I'm about as far from a fan of this individual as anyone could be), I think his first remark about the religious building at Ground Zero was his way (or some handler's way) of "showing the world" that the US President respects all religions and isn't about to try to stop even an unpopular religion from practicing. In other words, I think he may have been "sending a message about how fair the US government is" and/or trying to be a role model to anyone in other countries.
  
  At the same time, I think he could have then included the whole other remark about "not commenting on the wisdom" of it. A coherent, intelligent, individual should be able to "tell the whole story" in one press conference or interview, with some clarification with a few questions afterward. What was with addressing this issue by chopping it up? Either it was adequately addressed first time around, or else it was, for some reason, chopped up and delivered in bits and pieces (not the most effective way to get out even the "right" message, which would have addressed everyone's concerning, including both freedom of religion, the point about the US government and freedom of religion, AND the fact that building that thing on Ground Zero land is the issue that it is.
  
  So, I agree that things seem pretty incoherent. I don't necessarily think that, though, is the cause of anyone's disapproval of him. More, I think the disapproval comes from the fact that someone with true leadership skills wouldn't be saying what advisors tell him to say if what they said didn't seem to on the ball. A true leader would recognize a bad approach to messages and do something about it. I think people sense (or at least interpret, correctly or otherwise) that the "incoherent message" is a symptom of something more serious, which is lack of strong leadership and/or lack of sufficiently strong enough thinking to have enough substance and core behind any message, that getting out what the guy means wouldn't be a big challenge.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why fairness to him? Is he fair to us?
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  sandra rinckposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  lol, I only got to "simpler is better" before I started laughing. How much simpler can a person get. Freedom of religion is a core value and he expressed it accurately that government doesn't make any laws respecting an establishment...
  
  Some folks are just taking things way to far and pretending like he said, yes please build a mosque there when really he said, I cannot make any decision or intercede with anyones rights to build their establishments etc, etc, etc.
  
  He said, "I cannot comment on the wisdom." He said, he cannot say whether he believes it is right or wrong but only that there isn't anything he or anyone else can do about it.
  
  People have this right. That is pretty straight forward and to the point.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Right does not mean it is correct. I respect right. To built on other place is also right.
  Why president canceled day of prayer of this nation?
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  President Obama did not cancel the National Day of Prayer.
  
  http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/prayerday.asp
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  junkoposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't see nor hear in the president's video or statements made about the building of the mosque any confused statement . I saw and heard an opinion on the right to, and constitutionality of building the mosque .The next day I heard him say that what he said the day before was not in support of building the mosque there or anywhere in America .People can say anything and act confused just to confuse .
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pisean282311posted 13 years ago
what he said was correct as per what america stands for..but at same time i believe mosque can be built anywhere else to..muslim community must respect feelings of those who lost their kins there...as far as right to built mosque/temple in usa or freedom of religion is concerned , usa is not saudi Arabia..so he is right in that...
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  Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I agree with you. I'm not at all thrilled that he didn't come out and say his thing about "the right" but then didn't speak up/stand up for the victims, the Americans who find it offensive on behalf of the victims, their family members, and the country as whole, and on behalf of the overall message that is being inferred from even considering this project. Saying "the wisdom of it" wasn't enough. The word, "wisdom" implies only that it's not a wise idea. I think he should have included the offensive nature of this one plan and said, in front of the world, exactly why it is seen by so many as offensive.
  
  He could have added that the building is welcomed in any number of other locations, just not this one. He could have the whole "blah-blah-blah" about how their were Muslim victims on 911 too (which there were, and I'm not disregarding that). He just could have added, too, that whether there were or not isn't really the point when it comes to this one act of planning that build as it related to those three attacks on 911.
  
  I think a real leader should be able to sort out, clarify, and explain all the issues; rather than allowing (or intentionally causing) the muddying between freedom of religion and the very unique and isolated matter of this particular property. Maybe it's all find and good that he stands up and wants to make a big show of "what America stands for", but his job is also to stand up and make a big show of being able to sort out (at least in conversation and on issues) American issues on American soil. He reminds of the parents who, when one kid who attacks another one who was minding his business; and then when the kids are fighting will say, "I don't care who started it. Nobody is getting ice cream." The kid who was minding his business and just got attacked out nowhere really could use his parents to address the issue of who attacked whom first, and actually point out that there was difference in each kid's role in the right (and one kid didn't deserve to punished at all). That "victim kid" deserves to have his parents stand up for him and tell the "guilty" kid he was wrong and why. If he doesn't have that he'll learn he can't trust his parents to watch out for his interests or speak up on his behalf.
  
  The people who should be showing the understanding and sensitivity are NOT the people who find the religious building offensive and insulting; and Obama should be standing up in front of the world and saying that.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  you know it is interesting that we should be fair, but why progressives are not fair to Christian or Israeli? Is this Muslim country? It was Christian country. Now seems to be...what?
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's a seuclar democracy - always has been. Sorry you didn't get the memo.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  this country is not allowed to be a religious country in the federal government. The first amendment clearly states that the law-making section of our federal government can not make any law respecting a religion.
  
  However, this amendment, along with the 10th amendment, clearly states that the states have the legislative powers of each individual state may pass religious laws.
  
  I'm an atheist, and I wish this were not so - but it is so.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
I think this "incoherence" problem is being played out right here in this thread...

While we Americans love the idea of freedom of expression, we then like to submit others we don't understand to undue criticism, the perfect case in point being the "mosque at ground zero."

If more Americans would pay closer attention to details and not fall prey to the hatemongering of political charlatans then perhaps our President wouldn't appear to waver in the wind....

Bush did not waver in his support of American concoted lies about Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq, nor in his belief that while waging two wars that we needed to cut taxes for the wealthy......and his unaltering rhetoric about the "need to get Americans into homes" (driving the housing bubble up to its peak) has really paid off for us......right?

Hardly...
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  Lisa HWposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I wasn't a fan of Bush either, but whatever issues anyone has with him are with him. Whatever issues people have with this individual are with him. He shouldn't have to act in response to those "political charlatons". He should be able to (at least in speeches) hold his own in spite of them. It shouldn't be a matter of "wavering in the wind". Something/someone solid and strong stands in the wind, and forces it to find another route.
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  TamCorposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I so agree with you, Lisa...
  
  Like I said in another thread, this whole issue shouldn't even be discussed along party lines, nor in reference to the Constitution, or even what the heck the president thinks of it.
  
  It should be about respecting the families of all of those victims, and the majority of the rest of the country who still remember the horror of that day as if it were yesterday.
  
  Simple common decency--is that so hard to understand?
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  the ONLY reason I'm quoting the constitution is because nincumpoops like Sarah Palin and others (believe me, she ain't the only one) keep demanding that the PRESIDENT do something in regards to a mosque.
  
  This is clearly nonsense - not only does the PRESIDENT not have the power to stop a Mosque from being built, but NEITHER DOES CONGRESS. The first amendment and the first article of the Constitution clearly make this true.
  
  The 10th amendment, however, tells us who CAN prohibit the building of said mosque - the states. And then the 14th amendment states that this right to do with your own property (yes, a mosque/church/restaurant is private property) can only be taken away through Due Process.
  
  Due process has a lot of whacky definitions, but the original comes from the Magna Carta, and loosely translates to "rule of the people", or "peer judgement". -- i.e. a jury system, or possibly even a vote on the issue.
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habeeposted 13 years ago
Wow! You guys have really given me a lot to consider!
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rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago
I think anything a President says will be open for criticism,or will be misconstrued, especially from the media and journalists. I think they've done more harm than the office of the presidency.

let's be honest. this is a difficult issue and anything he says is fuel against him. I'm sick of the media and what they do to instill fear and apathy in the American public.
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  Vladimir Uhriposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Media are liberal are they not?
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PrettyPantherposted 13 years ago
I wish journalists would spend as much time analyzing and reporting on the substance of the issues as they do on the politics. That entire article is about "how" the message was communicated and how critics are using the perceived "incoherence" of the message to score political points. And that whole paragraph about Bush's simple and direct messaging approach makes me ill. Sorry, but something is terribly wrong when we're talking about Obama as incoherent and praising Bush for his communication skills.

I am glad we have a president who can perceive and acknowledge the complexity of issues. I am glad we have a president who is willing to talk to us like we're thinking adults. People have become so accustomed to issues being presented as black/white and good/bad that they whine about incoherence just because they might have to use their brains to consider the issues and come to their own conclusions. When did we become a nation of lazy thinkers?
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Sorry, but something is terribly wrong when we're talking about Obama as incoherent and praising Bush for his communication skills."
  
  I didn't vote for Bush but I think he communicated what he stood for very well.
  
  Obama says one thing and does another.
  
  Most transparent administration
  
  There wont be lobbyists in my administration
  
  I don't blame the republicans
  
  I want to fundamentally change America wait
  
  He actually meant that.
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I could make a list of things Bush said that contradicted his actions. I could make a list of Bush's outright lies. That isn't really the topic here, though, is it?
  
  The topic was an article referring to Obama's message as "incoherent." I don't believe it's incoherent. I just think it goes over the heads of a lot of people who don't want to bother thinking about the issues in terms other than good/evil and black/white.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "I just think it goes over the heads of a lot of people who don't want to bother thinking about the issues in terms other than good/evil and black/white."
  
  I can understand that, liberals believe in a lot of gray area when they are trying to get a point across.
  
  Well, unless its a black and white issue like who is responsible for our economic situation, then its Bush's fault.
  
  And our continued economic situation its still Bush's fault.
  
  And when anything happens that Obama doesn't want to take the blame for.
  
  Ayup
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
We have, in my opinion, pretty much always been a nation of lazy thinkers.....how else could the Mexican-American War, Spanish-American War, Vietnam, and Iraq conflicts transpire?

I brought up Bush earlier because the article linked by the original poster spoke about him and how his message rarely wavered.....

If one isn't thinking critically, or one doesn't care about what people think, then it is easy to "stay the course."

Of course, another person following my statement mentioned the "respect" issue concerning the Islamic center being constructed "near ground zero"....the uninformed strike again...and it is those like TamCor who put pressure on Obama....or perhaps he is uninformed about the details as well.....when he was briefed about this issue did he know that the people behind the construction of this community center are Sufis? Or did he just get the "Muslim" idea?
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  TamCorposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  
  Not quite sure why you dragged me into this...
  
  All I said that if the families of the victims are against this center--why doesn't respect for their feelings count?
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  Sylvie Strongposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Not all of them are. This organization represents 200 9/11 family members.
  
  http://www.peacefultomorrows.org/article.php?id=986
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I was curious how "random guy #75"'s right to own his own property has anything to do with "random guy #56"...
  
  Just cuz someone doesn't want you to build something somewhere is NO reason to take away your right to do so.
  
  That would be called tyranny.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
No....especially when the generialization of "Islam" is the basis for this argument...

This is why I mentioned Sufis.....who are behind the construction of the Cordoba House....

We need to become more precise in our understanding to topics before we throw out opinions and put pressure on politicians to respond.... We need to be cognizant of the larger implications of our actions...

If some 9/11 families are upset, it is too bad that they are uninformed about the nature of this construction in Manhattan....it is too bad that they have fallen victim to the same biased, false rhetoric about "Muslims" that Sarah Palin and other dupes have deceitfully perpetuated...

As for Israel.....how many people know that Israelis attacked the American military, on purpose, in the past? We went to war with Vietnam over a concocted attack on one of our ships...the Gulf of Tonkin fraud....and we fought for 10 years with over 50,000 lives lost.... Israel did far worse to the U.S., and we did nothing...and hid it from the American people...

I find if funny how people are getting irritated about the "mosque at ground zero"....while real anger has been caused throughout the Middle East by Brits, French, and Americans building their own puppet regimes throughout said geographic region...

From Sykes-Picot onward, these three nations have taken their turns bombing, killing, oppressing people in the jerrymandered "countries" like Syria, Israel, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran and Lebanon. We have created the imbalances in the Mid East over the past century....
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  TamCorposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I still stand by what I said--people's feelings are more important than any of those reasons you stated. Obviously you don't think so, but I do...
  
  And I'm sure that most of the victim's families live close by, or have visited, and know exactly where this center is going to be...and please note that I did NOT say mosque.
  
  If you decide to respond again, I can do without the patronizing attitude, thank you.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
Again....."where" is not an argument...

"What" is more precise...

Ask the right questions and you will get the right answers..

If people wish to remain ignorant....so be it...
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  TamCorposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Obviously, compassion is a lost art with too many people now...too bad...
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
I have recently seen this "No Mosque at Ground Zero" referred to as a faux issue. Which, on the national level, it is.
It is yet the latest ploy by GOP to whip the country into an anti-Islamic frenzy -- just in time for November elections.

It's too bad that Obama fell for the bait, although I feel that his remarks themselves were not inconsistent. His first remarks about freedom of religion were to a Muslim audience. Ok, that makes perfect sense. If I were Obama, I would not add -- in that context-- "But even though "you" have the right to do it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do."

He would have been smart to leave his comments at the "freedom of religion." That is true and completely defensible.

The last line of the CNN article says it all:

"They are trying to bring the president into the debate. ... It only helps Republicans to continue to talk about this issue," he said.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
"Compassion" Tam? Like that we felt for the Iraqis when we gave tax dollars to Saddam...along with WMD's and satellite images so that he could wage our proxy war with Iran?

Some people mistake "compassion" for boneheaded politiking...

The "ground zero mosque" hoax falls definitely into this latter category....

Sarah Palin should be the lithmus test for credibility.....and again...she sides with the liars, frauds, and rabble rousers...

What about the compassion towards the Sufis, who have been persecuted by Sunni and Shia Muslims for hundreds of years? Shall we "compassionate" Americans follow down the same road of discrimination and misrepresentation?

I should hope not.....
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
P.S. Apparently this Islamic Center (which will not be recognizable as a mosque and is actually on a side street not visible from Ground Zero) is a much bigger deal nationally than locally. One would assume that locally the outcry against this proposed structure would be even higher than it is elsewhere in the US. But such is not the case.

70% of Americans oppose the project. BUT...
A Qunnipiace poll showed that the majority of New Yorkers (meaning those in the state) opposed the project but showed that New Yorkers (meaning Manhattanites) favored it 46% to 36%.
A Marist poll showed an even greater spread among Manhattanites. 55% in favor vs. 32% opposed.

And let's not forget for one minute WHO is leading the charge in this campaign. Newt Gingrich, Sarah Palin and the party who are now claiming to care about the victims of 9/11. Same party who voted against a bill to provide aid to now ailing 9/11 first responders. Not their families, not their widows. The actual HEROES who risked their own lives at Ground Zero.

How convenient to have this lightning rod issue right before November. Same way the GOP maneuvered public sentiment against gay marriage at the state level back in 2000....
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  This is exactly right. It's more manufactured outrage. Gotta keep the base fearful and angry so they'll come to the polls in November.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  indeed. Entirely manufactured. Anyone who's bothered to read the Constitution can see clearly that not only does OBAMA not have the authority to do anything, but neither does Congress (and obviously not the Supreme Court).
  
  and not JUST groundless. It's also pure evil as well. This is just Palin using the memories of the dead to conjure up hatred against her political enemies. This is Black Necromancy at its finest. I can hear her maniacal cackling in the dark - the sound of death itself - as she actually sits down and chooses to use the dead for her own political gain. "Go, victims of the horrors of 9/11, fetch me my presidency!! I care not for your afterlife, nor for any of this 'rest in peace' nonsense... YOU WILL DO AS I BID!!!"
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "P.S. Apparently this Islamic Center (which will not be recognizable as a mosque"
  
  This is my favorite.
  
  It wont look like a mosque, but it is a mosque that will be referred to as a cultural center,community center,Islamic center anything but a mosque.
  
  And regardless of what liberals say this affects all Americans just as 9/11 did.
  
  Remember when it was said "we are all New Yorkers today"?
  
  Liberals want to point to "Manhattanites" as the only ones who should have anything to say.
  
  Heroes came from all over the country to aid New York and New Yorkers during that time.
  
  This is all of our business.
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  let's see...
  
  CONGRESS SHALL MAKE NO LAW respecting a religion...
  
  the other 2 federal branches have NO SAY WHATSOEVER in legislative acts (as this case would be)...
  
  the tenth amendment clearly states that if Congress can't write the law, it is at most a State issue...
  
  and the New York State Constitution demands that "No person shall be denied the equal protection of the laws of this state or any subdivision thereof. No person shall, because of race, color, creed or religion, be subjected to any discrimination in his or her civil rights by any other person or by any firm, corporation, or institution, or by the state or any agency or subdivision of the state." ...
  
  And "the right to property" is an undeniable civil right.
  
  The New york constitution goes on to say "The free exercise and enjoyment of religious profession and worship, without discrimination or preference, shall forever be allowed in this state to all humankind;"
  
  ... so...
  
  no, actually, this doesn't affect me, nor anyone else, at all -- aside from emotionally.
  
  It's just some guy who wants to build a mosque near a place where a tragic event occurred. This does not justify taking away someone's private property rights - that would be tyranny.
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
Since when do we, as Americans, get to make decisions about local zoning laws and private projects in New York City?
It is an issue of convenience that plays on people's anger and fears.
Very similar to how "AZ Immigrationin Law" is suddenly a national issue also.
GOP = Fear and Loathing.
That's their tactics and there's an election coming.
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the connection.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nobody other than those appointed to make laws are doing so.
  
  Why the hysterics?
  
  Oh, yeah its about changing the topic I forgot.
  
  To get back on topic, America and Americans can have any opinion they want, no matter how many times you say we can't.
  
  DNC=misdirection/hysterics/general confusion to cloud any and all issues.
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
Jim Hunter said: "And regardless of what liberals say this affects all Americans just as 9/11 did. Remember when it was said "we are all New Yorkers today"?

Yes, Jim. I do remember that. I remember when Rudy Guiliani used 9/11 as his one and only claim to fame when he ran for president. Notice we haven't heard anything from him since?

For the record, I grew up on Long Island on the commuter line to NYC. My town and neighborhood were full of Wall Street workers.
New Yorkers are notoriously strong, resilient people.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And good for New Yorkers.
  
  What does that have to do with someone in Oklahoma expressing an opinion?
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Evan G Rogersposted 13 years ago
This is absolute nonsense - read the @&#^&@#*@#&$@#&$@&#%!*((*&&#$*T%# ing constitution - the PRESIDENT HAS ABSOLUTELY NO SAY WHATSOEVER IF A *^%&^$#%&$#^@ MOSQUE IS BUILT ANYWHERE!!!!
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
Oh, and since we are "All New Yorkers" when it comes to 9/11, how many Americans give a thought -- EVER -- to people who died fighting an ill-conceived war in Iraq?

American Military Casualties in Iraq

American Deaths
Since war began (3/19/03): 4415
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03) (the list) 4276
Since Capture of Saddam (12/13/03): 3954
Since Handover (6/29/04): 3556
Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09): 187
American Wounded
31,907
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How many wars has Obama put a stop to?
  
  Zero.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm not sure how you got onto the war but I spend a lot of time volunteering at several military bases with those suffering from wounds that can be seen and those suffering from wounds we will never see.
  
  I work in the medical field only because of the GI bill and even though its considered a payback for my service I give back to those in the military.
  
  How many times have you volunteered at a military base or hospital?
  
  How many years did you serve in the military?
  
  I only ask because of your line of questioning, I served so you could ask those questions.
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Reality Bytesposted 13 years ago
His comment seemed more like a comment from a Harvard Law professor than it did a President of the USA.

Mr. Obama does not seem to know how to respond to trivial matters in a Presidential format. When it comes to problems in the country the building of one Mosque seems to be something that our President should refrain from commenting on. IMO I appreciate the fact that he tells us all exactly who he is and what he stands for. What was his speechwriters thinking at the Ramadan dinner?

His first comment was absolutely correct.

His second attempt at restructuring the statement just seems incompetent.
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
DNC=misdirection/hysterics/general confusion to cloud any and all issues.

Hysterics are the pervuiew of the GOP.

Back to Habee's OP.
I do not see any inconsistency in Obama's comments on this issue.
I do feel he would have been better off leaving his comments to one simple, defensible message. Muslims DO have the right to build a place of worship wherever they wish.
It was not his place as president to comment on the advisability or inadvisability of this specific project.
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rebekahELLEposted 13 years ago
labels really no longer serve a purpose unless there's mudslinging taking place.

actually the gray area is where thinking and reasoning has room to take place, as in gray matter, the brain, intelligence.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  The gray area is the place where lies and blame are created.
  
  Its where distraction and misdirection are the one and only topic.
  
  Basically a place for bullshit to be spread.
  
  Americans love black and white, we're kind of cool that way.
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  rebekahELLEposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  gray, grey, we have different interpretations.. a play on words.
  
  I obviously was not referring to the hazy gray area of neutrality or uncertainty.
  
  bull#@%$ is spread anywhere. everyone can agree to that.
  black and white thinking has it's place, but there are times rigid, staunch, non-thinkers cause a lot of problems.
  it's clear the media is playing with the public's intelligence or lack thereof.
  
  I'm going swimming..
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
No Jim. The topic is not whether Americans have a right to express their opinions. That right is guaranteed under our Constitution as well. Just as freedom of religion is guaranteed.

The TOPIC is about Obama's clarity of message.
It's a real shame that he is being accused of being too scholarly. Gotta dumb down those sound bites so that the yahoos in the red states can understand what he's saying.
Although even that won't help, because they don't listen to him anyway.
So even from that direction this is a NON ISSUE!
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Gotta dumb down those sound bites so that the yahoos in the red states can understand what he's saying."
  
  Wow, your message is rather clear.
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm from a red state, and I don't require anything being "dumbed down" so that I can understand it. I actually have a fairly large vocabulary and adequate comprehension skills.
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
I will respond to your comment about your military service and military base volunteering in the same manner you responded to my comment about New Yorkers:
Good for you.
And I mean that sincerely.
And thank you for your service.
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I see. You are not under any obligation to volunteer but there are some of us who do think a lot about the people who have died and will continue to die.
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
But since you ask,
My volunteer service centers around substance abuse and recovery. It does include voluteering at a psychiatric hospital as well as rehabilitation facilities and AA fellowships.
I hope I don't need to spell out for you the high incidence of addiction among veterans. Most of the veterans I see are Viet Nam, but there are some Gulf War and Iraq "War" as well. I interact with a LOT of parents with kids serving in Afghanistan.

While certainly not remotely close to the level of yours, Jim, my interactions with veterans have taught me to
a) be immensely grateful for their bravery
b) be immensely grateful that they survived
c) be sensitive to the wounds --especially the mental and emotional wounds -- caused by their service

I've gotta go work now. Don't think I'm backing down from our conversation. I just gotta go make some money to feed my Hub Pages habit:-) MM
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  Jim Hunterposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I would never think you would back down.
  
  And thank you for all that you do.
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Doug Hughesposted 13 years ago
On the subject of freedom of religion, Obama was clear. It's sacred and non-negotiable.

On the issue of a particular 'mosque' or swimming pool or library or basketball court - all part of an Islamic Cultural Center - Obama will not take sides. And he should not - freedom of religion cuts both ways - not permitting discrimination AGAINST and notendorsing any particular religion, church or locale.

This may look like a mixed message, but it's a proper reading of the role of president.
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akirchnerposted 13 years ago
Did someone call you DUMB Spanky? Let me know who to go after and I'm on it!

Seriously, I think Obama has not had a prayer since day one because everyone has been throwing the country off the track and into some new debate about how terrible he is as a president. I don't think anyone wants him to succeed to be honest.

I do have a problem with the weight of the world being lifted onto his shoulders since he only 'assumed' what those before him pretty much screwed up. I think it would be dang cordial of us as a country to try and allow the guy the time to dig out of this mess - as in the same amount that we let the other party (who shall remain nameless) entrench us in a mess. However, that is really not true either. It is the responsibility of our entire governing body to be putting a stop to all of this instead of rummaging around trying to discredit Obama every 5 minutes.

As to the mosque issue - I don't know if it is media hype, GOP hype or the truth. I don't really think it is the issue and I think focusing on that and that alone is going to get the country nowhere! It seems every day there is a new 'theory' about how Obama is trying to submerge our country in Islam or trying to ruin us from the outside in.

I wish to heavens someone would actually concentrate on the PROBLEMS and try to solve them rather than looking for a scapegoat!
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habeeposted 13 years ago
Hi, Buckie! I hope Mighty Mom wasn't referring to ALL people who live in red states!

I wish Obama had never weighed in on the mosque issue. I'm not an Obama fan, but I don't like the constant bashing of him for silly things. As soon as I heard him start back-pedaling on his mosque remark, I knew he was gonna get it! And get it he did - from the right AND from the left!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I heard you did indeed fall off of a turnip truck!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, but you were driving it, RD!
  
  FK, I think Randy prefers being called "Mr. Snakeboy"! lol
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  How about Obama's Bestest And Biggest Supporter Mr. Snakeboy?
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Flightkeeperposted 13 years ago
For a guy who's supposed to be so smart Obama did something really stupid by saying anything at all regarding the mosque issue in NY. For a guy who's supposed to help foster the post racial era, he just mires us in racial division. For a guy who's promised us that he would lower the sea level, he can barely clean up an oil spill. That foot in his mouth just keeps getting bigger and bigger.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  He said he would lower the sea level?
  
  If Dumbya were still here :"The oil spill will pay for the war!"
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  Ron Montgomeryposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  His admirers are getting increasingly desperate to justify their devotion. Obama bashers aka W disciples have a weird outlook on life...
  
  Could be what makes them so hateful and boring.
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That was Rush Limbaugh's interpretation. What Obama actually said was "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That sounds a bit different than what Flykeeper said! LOL!
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yeah, those conservatives who supposedly think for themselves sure do come up with similar verbiage, even to the point of rephrasing an Obama quote in exactly the same way.
  
  I wonder how that happens....?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It has to be just coincidence! Flykeeper wouldn't just make stuff up like that! Hoot!
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No, and she would never resort to name calling, either, right? Only us "libtards" do that.
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  Pcunixposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Telepathic communication.
  
  They do not want us to know..
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  That has to be it, since none of them watch Fox News or listen to Rush/Beck/Hannity.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Good grief did you just resort to namecalling?! Did I just stumble into your schoolyard? I didn't think that would ever happen.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Didn't you tread on me? LOL!
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Tread on you?! Oh dear, did I hurt your feelings about your favorite president in the whole wide world, Obama the prez?
  
  TOO BAD!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  HA! I actually feel better when you chastise him, FK! Then I really know he is doing the right thing!
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I knew you think he could no wrong.
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Rush Limbaaugh - It's like all the fat in that repulsive blob somehow hot charged with hatered and decieit. If ever there was a candidate for a labotomy, he's it.
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I don't know how Rush sleeps at night. He makes a living off of deceit, fear, and hate.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  But aren't these Fox Network qualifications?
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Add hypocrisy to the list and you've got it.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Talk about hypocrisy, wingnuts is okay but somebody says libtards and you are all so offended?! You guys make me laugh. I've never stooped to personal namecalling. But hey, if that makes Randy feel better, I can take it. You go right ahead, snakeboy.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  OOPS!!
  
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I am totally NOT offended by such a silly remark. I've never called anyone a wingnut myself, but I can certainly understand why other people do. I just found it fascinating that you implied Randy's tactics were childish after some of the stuff I've seen you say here on the forums.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Well gee, thanks for finding me fascinating.
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yes, conversing with some people on these forums is sort of like watching a train wreck. You know you shouldn't do it but you can't help yourself.
  
  :-)
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Show me some respect, Flighty! It's MISTER Snakeboy to you!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cutting and bracing? WTF?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  WTF? Wednesday, Thursday, Friday?
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  ummm...I pick Friday! Did I win?
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What did you incoherently say?
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What did you incomprehensibly read ?
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  What you incomprehensibly wrote!!!
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Mighty Momposted 13 years ago
Point of clarification (which I am sorry to have to provide).
My comment about "dumbing down messages for people in red states" was specific to something my esteemed (but sometimes needlesome)forum opponent Jim Hunter said.
He mentioned people in OKLAHOMA (a red state) having the right to have an opinion on the mosque/cultural center in New York(a blue state).
At the same time, we were discussing Obama's overly academic (at least in some people's minds) communication style.
My point was INTENDED to be that it is people who are actively looking for opportunities to disparage the president who are at the forefront of this hysteria.
Certainly some of the Americans who require a stripped down message to rally around reside in blue states.
And I certainly did not mean to imply that ALL people in ALL red states are incapable of understanding Mr. Obama's words.
I apologize, Habee, if you thought I was in any way referring to you!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Nah, MM. Like I said to AKirchner, I hoped you weren't referring to ALL the folks in the red states! That would have to include my neighbor, Mr. Snakeboy! lol
  
  RD and FK, move it up a notch! Let's keep the debate civil!
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Habee, you're right. In the future, if you see me responding stupidly to someone whose bothered by what I said about the Holy Obama just say Beer Summit and I'll snap right out of it.
  
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm just having fun and you know it! I never take anything FK says seriously! Honest! LOL!
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habeeposted 13 years ago
Just to clarify, I have never, ever listened to Rush, nor have I watched Hannity since Colmes left. As for Beck, the only time I hear him is when hubby is watching FOX and I'm in the other room on the puter. I don't care for these three, nor do I care for Olbermann.
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  And that's why you would never hear a quote like this:
  
  "this was the moment when the rise of the oceans began to slow and our planet began to heal."
  
  and then claim with a straight face that Obama promised to lower the sea level.
  
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You're right. Obama saying what he said with a straight face was bad enough.
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Then why not use the real quote instead of making stuff up?
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's not making stuff up, it's what he said but it's not so fluffy!
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Oh, okay.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Cool! Then you will henceforth be known as "FluffKeeper Extraordinaire!" Boy, that does have a nice ring to it!
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  You mean the Highly Exalted FluffNonKeeper Extraordinaire. I'm channeling the Mighty Obama.
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habeeposted 13 years ago
I don't trust ANY spokesperson who thinks Obama is ALWAYS wrong, anymore than I would one who thinks he's ALWAYS right! Same goes for Bush or any other president. They're all far from perfect, but none are/were all bad, either. It's a terrible job being prez, and I wouldn't want it for any amount of money or power.
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  TamCorposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Wow, the voice of reason, lol...
  
  I agree completely with you, habee...
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habeeposted 13 years ago
I'm not familiar with the quote. What was it about, exactly?
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  It's been awhile since I saw the speech but I believe it was in the context of Obama's theme of change and how respect for the environment will once again be a priority.
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  Flightkeeperposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Imagine him saying it with grecian columns in the background.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  "Women should be seen and not heard!" That one?
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  Doug Hughesposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  No Randy - the quote is 'Women should be obscene and not heard."
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! I like that.
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Filed away for future use, Doug! LOL!
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habeeposted 13 years ago
That's why Randy always uses duct tape on his obscene women!
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I'm beginning to think you have a new fetish! You've been mentioning duct tape a lot lately! Not that there's anything wrong with it!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Why does this surprise you??
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I hope I don't regret this:
  
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  Evan G Rogersposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  she used too much
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habeeposted 13 years ago
Oh, PP! My hubby will FREAK over this! He LOVES boobs...and duct tape!! lol
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  Randy Godwinposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  Yep, if she was holding a beer and had cotton lint in her hair, Johnny would dump you in a heartbeat! LOL!
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  habeeposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  I thought it was fish scales?? and if she were drinking the beer, he wouldn't like her. He don't like sharin' his beer with no wemmings!!
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  PrettyPantherposted 13 years agoin reply to this
  LOL! Cool. Tell him "hi" from Oregon. :-)
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habeeposted 13 years ago
Hi, Tam!
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
This "common decency" argument is nonsensical...it is simply a ploy used by bigots to hide their biased discrimination of others...

People may think that they are hiding their prejudice in the worlds of "caring".......but intolerance of Muslims still shines right through....

I think prejudice is the best way to classify many of those who attack the "9/11 mosque".....for if they actually knew the facts, the details, before they made their determinations, perhaps they would have a different opinion/viewpoint...

I wonder, how many of the posters here who disapprove of this construction in New York know anything about Islam......

What do you people actually know? I am very curious.....
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habeeposted 13 years ago
Mike, I know a little, from Muslim students I've taught. I found all the ones I knew to be wonderful teenagers. I agree - there's a huge bias against Muslims, in general, in the US. It's human nature to fear what we don't understand. My Christianity taught me tolerance. I realize that not all Christian denominations teach or stress this, but mine did, and it stuck!
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habeeposted 13 years ago
BTW, Mike, I've also read parts of the Qur'an. I need to read more.
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mikelongposted 13 years ago
I was reading an Associated Press story in today's Daily News (San Fernando Valley paper)about a mother who's son, a New York City EMT, who died in the Twin Towers when they fell to the ground....

They are Muslims.......and she is lamenting and asking why it is that she and others like her are being demonized, and why heroes like her son are being left out, or forgotten, within this larger "September 11th" iconography:

"Why are we paying the price? Why are we being ostracized? Our loved ones died" -Talat Hamdani.

While the entirety of the article focuses on various viewpoints it is hers that rings the loudest.....

And for those who try to compare the "Japanese cultural center next to Pearl Harbor," a predominant portion of the Hawaiian Islands is of Japanese descent, and huge, if not most (based on my own observations), of the tourists who visit the site are Japanese tourists fresh off the trans-Pacific flight.....
The island itself can be viewed, in part, as a cultural center....

Secondly, Islam is a religion, and Japanese is a nation-state....I do not see how these are at all comparable...

I also read about the case involving a Muslim woman working at Disneyland. After becoming a citizen of this nation and realizing her rights she started wearing her hijab to work....

She does not work as Minnie Mouse....but in a restaurant as a greeter....but Disney demanded that she remove her scarf...and she is filing a lawsuit..

Some argue that she had worked for Disney in the same job without the hijab for two years...so why should she change now?

But what about the fact that she did not have citizenship, she did not know, and she could more easily be terminated.... Workplace intimidation.... Because Christians can, overall, look however they want...and have no clothing restrictions or guidelines for women, those cultures that do have to change?

Nonsense....

Other arguments were made stating that "if you can'd wear your Angels baseball cap then she should keep her headwear at home."

Islam is again not classified as a religion, but now as a sports team....

Really??

The politics of dominance....of power building and display against minorities by another minority, a foreign element itself, is what we are viewing. It is important to remember the support of New Yorkers themselves is overwhelming...people living in other states are trying to interfere...

This is comparable to Mormons from Utah invading California in order to push a California ballot initiative....Proposition 8..

For people who cling to "border security" in order to "keep out invaders"......these same people love to take advantage of "free access" for themselves...

Ongoing hypocrisy....
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